Lazaris speaks of Trust, they tell us that Trust is like glass and once it's broken it is nearly impossible to put it back the way it was.

I disagree with that. I value Trust, without it we cannot ever be at peace with ourselves or with others. Trust will be broken many times, and many times we will Trust inappropriately, but that doesn't mean we can never Trust again.

In saying that, I'm not advocating false or frivolous Trust. As we learn and grow hopefully we will learn to be discriminating, but we will also hopefully remain resilient.

What is beautiful about what you write is that you are not advocating the abandonment of Trust, but a deeper and more responsible relationship with it. I agree with you, that this is the key. We cannot, as so many have said here, throw out the baby with the bathwater. To do so would leave us hard, cold, and cynical. This is not the path to joy and fulfillment of our human potential IMHO.

To me the foundation of Trust is Self Trust.
All of us have the faculties to make a determination whether or not to Trust. But, we cannot fully develop those faculties without practice. So, if we refuse to Trust as so many do after having been burned badly, we become tough and brittle, and in denial of our own abilities. There is nothing worse than trying to have a relationship with someone who refuses to Trust other than being in that state ourselves.

So, of course, you are so correct about exercising discrimination and thinking through each opportunity before we invest our Trust. That is the exercise of Trusting others, and as we develop that, we learn to Trust ourselves more and more. If we allow it, we can learn and grow from our mistakes.

Most of us idealists have invested a lot of false Trust, and maybe we have done so because we have had little faith in ourselves and therefore have placed much too much faith in others. We were told, and we believed that we needed Help. Right there, you have the foundation for lack of Self Trust.

But we also have to honor the fact that there are those who are simply opportunists, those who are very very good at what they do, and they know that the sincere and loving of the world WANT to Trust. So, they abuse that sincerity in us, and they do it with a calculated and deliberate skill. The "helping hand" they offer is covered with the sticky glue of codependence.

I will never beat myself up for the false Trust I have placed in people like that. I know that in the end, that by playing their parasitic games they have eroded their own ability to ever Trust anyone, including themselves. They lose their own humanity by preying on that of others.

I can recover from my failures to Trust others appropriately, and from those failures learn more about myself and develop a keener instinct and deeper Trust in myself.
I don't know that those whose life mission is to deceive others ever can.

But my life isn't about those others, it is about me, and my desire and willingness to live it as fully as I can.

So, screw the untrustworthy, let them live in their own foul mess. I will continue to Trust, carefully and with discrimination, and so what if I take a bump or a lump? That is nothing compared to the true joy and confidence I do feel when I know I can Trust another, and more importantly be Trusted by myself, and others who I love and care about.

I'm also thinking about the "Lazaris" techiques, tapes and seminars on Trust. Lazaris always gives us a little chat on a given topic to appeal to our intellect, but then ends with a "magical meditation", in which we will be healed my some mystical intervention.

The more I think about it, the more I realize the total stupidity of believing that one or a million cool visualization sessions can or will heal us, or bring about any significant changes in our consciousness. How could it possibly? If closing our eyes, listening to some groovy music, and letting some soothing voice talk us through an inner journey through the trees would do the trick, this world would be a perfect place by now.

When we invested our time and Trust in these techniques, and in believing that something of significance was really changing in us, we really allowed ourselves to hand over our power, and more importantly our faith in ourselves. And, our spiritual muscle was eroded.

I'm not even saying that the "meditations" weren't fun, or that even sometimes there were some shifts or changes as a result of the "techniques", but it's so important to understand that any changes came as a result of our own exercise, and that having someone guide us through a visualization is not the way to grow. We grow and learn by thinking,living and learning how to "connect" on our own. Jach handed out enough techniques that sooner or later one of them had to hit home with someone somewhere. It's like a "spiritual dart game". Throw enough darts and one will hit the target sooner or later.

So, I guess what I am saying is that at this point I believe that the only true experiences are those which we give ourselves, and the only real Trust that which we have in ourselves. As long as we believe we need "help", especially when we have to attend a seminar, buy a tape, or give up our freedom to live and think on our own to get it, we will continue to place false Trust and never develop any true degree of Self-Trust.

Thanks so much for the time and energy you are taking to share with us Malene. It is so valuable to me, and I suspect to others as well to know how much we share with you and others who come from different beliefs or groups, but who ultimately have been through the same experience of giving away our power to those who have made it their life work to rob us of our freedom.

Did your group offer "techniques" or "magical healings" like Lazaris does?

Lots of Love to you,

Katie said: Lazaris speaks of Trust, they tell us that Trust is like glass and once it's broken it is nearly impossible to put it back the way it was.

Well Sheesh, what an arrogant bastard he is. So he claims we cant regain our own innate strong sense of trust, and yet he goes and abuses peoples trust to the extreme all the time? What a SOB. Sorry for saying it out loud. :o)

Katie said: Most of us idealists have invested a lot of false Trust, and maybe we have done so because we have had little faith in ourselves and therefore have placed much too much faith in others.

You know, one thing I was taught way back in the pre cult days, and I have tried to find out who taught it to me, but I am not sure yet, is that it is a sign of mental disease if you dont trust everyone. How naive a belief is that???? Trust is healthy, but only when done in a healthy way. The fact is, there are creeps out there, and to offer ourselves a minimum of protection we need to approach trust with a lot of respect. Trust is a gorgeous, fantastic gift we can give someone. It is closely related in a way to Love. Lets not give our beautiful trust away frivolously, but when people are showing themselves worthy of our trust, lets do share and open our hearts to that trustworthyness.

Katie said: But we also have to honor the fact that there are those who are simply opportunists, those who are very very good at what they do, and they know that the sincere and loving of the world WANT to Trust. So, they abuse that sincerity in us, and they do it with a calculated and deliberate skill. The "helping hand" they offer is covered with the sticky glue of codependence.

Exactly, those creeps are there. It is a good exercise to learn how to spot them when they cross our paths, and to take care of ourselves before we give away the precious gift of trusting.

Katie said: I will never beat myself up for the false Trust I have placed in people like that. I know that in the end, that by playing their parasitic games they have eroded their own ability to ever Trust anyone, including themselves. They lose their own humanity by preying on that of others.

That is beautiful Katie, I wish I could say I am done beating myself up for trusting the wrong people.. not quite there yet... It was my own damn mistake, and it was a awfully big mistake.... Atleast I got back to my own good sense eventually.

Katie said: I can recover from my failures to Trust others appropriately, and from those failures learn more about myself and develop a keener instinct and deeper Trust in myself.
I don't know that those whose life mission is to deceive others ever can.

So very, very true. Thanks for sharing this Katie :o).

Katie said: So, screw the untrustworthy, let them live in their own foul mess. I will continue to Trust, carefully and with discrimination, and so what if I take a bump or a lump?

Well, actually I wont screw the untrustworthy, they can go screw themselves :o). Sorry, me bad. But, you are so right... so very right about this.

Katie said: That is nothing compared to the true joy and confidence I do feel when I know I can Trust another, and more importantly be Trusted by myself, and others who I love and care about.

Mmmm yeahh.. the warm fuzzies, Thank God that those still exist.

Katie said: When we invested our time and Trust in these techniques, and in believing that something of significance was really changing in us, we really allowed ourselves to hand over our power, and more importantly our faith in ourselves. And, our spiritual muscle was eroded.

This is one of the most important points for me, in my recovery. While I am hard on myself at times, I also feel that by taking complete ownership for having given away my spiritual power to someone else, I can also completely recover that power. I made the mistake. Now, hopefully I am the wiser for it, and I can reclaim my own power, and strength to not only not make the mistake again, but also, to trust myself and my own relationship to God.

Katie said: So, I guess what I am saying is that at this point I believe that the only true experiences are those which we give ourselves, and the only real Trust that which we have in ourselves. As long as we believe we need "help", especially when we have to attend a seminar, buy a tape, or give up our freedom to live and think on our own to get it, we will continue to place false Trust and never develop any true degree of Self-Trust.

Self Trust. Self Reliance. Two very important things to me. I rely on me first, last and always. Because I rely on me, my ability now to weigh the situation and decide when to trust and when not to trust, I can also rely on others. And because I rely on me, should my trust in someone else again be misplaced, I might cry some tears, but I still have me and my self reliance....Noone can ever again take away my relationship to God, nor, can they take away my relationship to myself.

Funny actually. My former group teacher used to say with a lot of dignity and strength: "Noone can ever take away my relationship to God. It is mine alone, and it is completely personal." All at the same time she taught us that our relationship to God went through her. However, when the time was ripe I heard her again say that sentence which I had heard hundreds of times before, and that is what stuck with me.

Katie said: Thanks so much for the time and energy you are taking to share with us Malene. It is so valuable to me, and I suspect to others as well to know how much we share with you and others who come from different beliefs or groups, but who ultimately have been through the same experience of giving away our power to those who have made it their life work to rob us of our freedom.

You are very welcome Katie :o). Thanks for giving me the room on this board to share this long journey, to put into words what I am learning, and to continue to grow and learn as I too recover my strength after the many years in an abusive living situation.

Katie asked: Did your group offer "techniques" or "magical healings" like Lazaris does?

Ohhh.. this, is a whole other looooonnnngggg post.... ::sigh:::, yes, we had healing rituals, all night trance sessions etc,etc. I will think about doing a post on it. At this time, I am not sure how much I would be comfortable saying though, so it wont be until I have figured that out that I might answer your question :o).

Thanks for a gorgeous and right on post Katie.. I much enjoyed it.

Take care
Malene

Trust is a very important issue with this whole cult thing. I wrote a page on the Lazaris: Friend or Fraud portion of this site about the false trust that "Lazaris" elicits, and the diabolical way in which they bypass our natural skepticism by claiming to be coming from the "Higher Realms".

I think there may be an inverse relationship between tha amount of false trust we have and the amount of real trust we're capable of having. Cults have a tendency to encourage people to trust the cult at the expense of those who are truly trustworthy. After all, anyone not in the cult is less evolved - they don't have access to all the wisdom that those in the cult have access to.

I believe we have a natural tendency to trust, and one way to elicit more trust within the group is to diminish the trust outside the group. It makes us more dependant on the group and, therefore more willing (and needy) to place our trust there. In particular, the cult doesn't want us trusting ourselves.

Lazaris put out a couple of tapes on Self-Trust. They never gave the most important advice, which is to get out of the Forum[g].

Trust was one of the issues I was really struggling with when I first discovered the Lazaris material and it's one of the things that really hooked me. If I remember correctly, Lazaris taught that love was to be given and trust was to be earned.

And I don't think Lazaris ever taught that if we break trust we won't be able to trust anyone or anything again. To my understanding his teachings were that love was more resilient than trust. Love could "bounce" as it were, but if you shattered trust it might never be put back together again for the person who shattered it.

An example would be if your partner was unfaithful in their relationship with you, then you might still love them after finding out but the trust might never be regained again. Not that it absolutely can't or won't be, but for too many it's either completely destroyed or never full recovers, and suspicion haunts the relationship forever or until the relationship ends.

Having said that I would think that if Lazaris is real and knowing what they know about trust, that they would then take every precaution to make sure they did not lie to or mislead those they claim to love.

In my opinion, endorsing Peny, vouching for her integrity, compassion, love and character that she does not possess, which gives her the ability to inflict harm upon others is a serious breach of that trust.

Someone recently said to me, referring to Jach, that it's a lot easier to teach integrity than to live it. Just because you can define, delineate and discuss character, ideals and principals doesn't mean you have it.

Lazaris has said more times than I can count...and I remember, because it meant so much to me, "We will never ask you to trust us, but we will always give you reasons to."

Isn't that beautiful??? I love those words and they are something I would like to hold myself to, but as far as I'm concerned, my reasons for trusting Lazaris have been seriously challenged and are dropping rapidly.

I'm doing research on my own, reading books, searching the web and learning a lot about psychology and different therapy methods. What I'm beginning to realize is making me sick, but I owe it to myself to educate myself.

This is an ongoing process and what I am discovering is that the more of my power I take back the higher my level of self trust becomes. And it's too late to turn back...even if I wanted to...

Wish I could say I don't, but sometimes I do...that's the nature of forming an intimate spiritual and psychological bond with someone or even your beliefs about someone.

But don't worry. The same drive that led me to Lazaris in my search for truth will lead me out as I become more aware of who I am and with loving forgiveness and compassion for myself realize that Lazaris wasn't the end all, but a part of a larger journey which is mine to travel.

Seeker wrote:love was to be given and trust was to be earned.

That sure is a correct teaching! Even so called celestial beings needs to earn our trust!!

Seeker wrote: And I don't think Lazaris ever taught that if we break trust we won't be able to trust anyone or anything again. To my understanding his teachings were that love was more resilient than trust. Love could "bounce" as it were, but if you shattered trust it might never be put back together again for the person who shattered it.

Well, and then again, that is something which can be worked on given the right circumstances. However, as for my above comment to Katie about Lazaris, I didnt mean to judge something that I basically dont have the background to be the judge of. I am sorry.

Seeker wrote: in my opinion, endorsing Peny, vouching for her integrity, compassion, love and character that she does not possess, which gives her the ability to inflict harm upon others is a serious breach of that trust.

Yeahh.. I would think so....

Seeker wrote: Lazaris has said more times than I can count...and I remember, because it meant so much to me, "We will never ask you to trust us, but we will always give you reasons to."

Actually, I think this is so manipulative when used by a cult leader. This statement is completely designed to circumpass doubting peoples critical faculties. No matter how a person react to that Jach can counter with a "serene smile" making the person doubt their own doubts, and eventually give in, because he isnt asking it of them...

The statement is beautiful.. and it has great truth, trust DOES have to be earned, and in that actions are many times louder than words... but used manipulatively this statement is really nasty...

Seeker wrote: I'm doing research on my own, reading books, searching the web and learning a lot about psychology and different therapy methods. What I'm beginning to realize is making me sick, but I owe it to myself to educate myself.

Dear Seeker, we should all know what you are learning right now. As painful as it is. Somehow, I need to devote a significantly part of my time to teaching people what I have come to understand. It is so incredibly important that we understand how these manipulations work, and how they were used to abuse us. To make it even more complicated teachers, priests, ministers, social workers, or psychologists knows so incredibly little about these topics. I need to take what I know and educate them...

WOW, what that a mission statement for the coming time or what????

Seeker wrote: But don't worry. The same drive that led me to Lazaris in my search for truth will lead me out as I become more aware of who I am and with loving forgiveness and compassion for myself realize that Lazaris wasn't the end all, but a part of a larger journey which is mine to travel.

It sounds like you are well on your way :o). There is trust again after the extreme betrayals of a destructive cult group. The trust will have changed in form, and it will feel differently, it will have matured, but, it is not killed off.

Good luck seeker :o),

Malene

Dear imakay,

Wow! What a wonderful trip you went on and I imagine England would be a really great place for antiques...although I don't know much about that sort of stuff. And those standing stones....oh, my!

Still, I just saw a travel piece about Cotswold England on PBS and fell in love with the beauty of the place. I'd love to visit some day. The description of how people live and relate to one another, a sense of community and connection with one another really made an impact on me. I never really thought of people actually living like that. Of course it was a short little show and I don't know what the reality is really like, but we are so disenfranchised from our own humanness and sense of community in my country, I think it's entirely possible that people can live differently, in a more idealistic sense, in societies or communities that have a different framework or worldview...and I long for that.

What was your impression of the way of life especially in the country, villages and towns? I'm not familiar with England...was the place you went to past London out in the country or is it like a city?

Anyway, I'm glad to see you back. The subject of whether Lazaris is real or not, whether it "should" matter or not is interesting and something I think a lot of us grapple with. For me it is important, because when I opened myself up so thoroughly and vulnerably it was to what Lazaris had purported himself to be. If Lazaris isn't real, then who is the person who was tripping around in my subconscious? I want to know.

Yes, my experiences are real, but if it wasn't Lazaris I was experiencing them with, then who was the person behind the voice leading me on these "meditations" which were really hypnosis sessions?

What part of what I experienced was me and what part was jach, his manipulation? I mean who is Jach and what knowledge does he have to do what he does and what ethics does he follow, if any, to allow him to do what he does?

What else was he doing when I was in a trance state? What were those "words" he'd speak - sometimes recognizable as words from the Kabalah, sometimes it seemed like they were made up, but I trusted "Lazaris" not Jach to give me information, suggestions, whatever while I was in a "meditative" state.

I had no problem with someone I trusted as deeply as I did Lazaris doing things I did not understand while in an altered state and on invitation, as Lazaris always liked to stress. But Jach? Someone who got there through false pretense and deception? Now that's a different story and that matters to me, because it presents a whole different set of questions which I find too important to dismiss, just because I got some benefit, albeit, very important and significant benefit, from this relationship.

I think it's the whole credibility issue. It's going back and re-examining everything..which we should do whether Lazaris is real or not. But it's about the implications and power of trust.

When you trust a person, how you perceive or even question their information is markedly different from how you would percieve or question the information of someone you don't know never mind someone who has lied to you.

And it's not just me. It's others out there. It matters to me whether Lazaris is real or not, because there are many, many vulnerable people earnestly seeking truth, discovering Lazaris and like many of us thinking they've found the best thing ever. I have a dear, dear friend who still does.

They, like myself and others, share the most secret parts of themselves to Lazaris, because they do believe he is real. That's why they do.

Knowing what I know about C/S and becoming more and more aware of all the inconsistencies, the outright lies not only of Jach, when he's Jach, and Peny, but of Lazaris (real or not)...(I wrote of one such experience on another thread and I'll look for it and post the URL here)...it matters to me if others are being seduced into giving up their power under the pretense of discovering it, and being more willing to do that because they believe Lazaris is real.

One of the things that finally drove me to face the truth was the pain of seeing people bewildered and devestated under attack in the Forum. And what angers me and makes me see how insidious this is, is seeing how some of them still steadfastly defend Lazaris, as bruised and wounded as they are, twisting themselves into psychological and emotional pretzels avoiding questions that might cast a shadow on their relationship with Lazaris because of loyalty, trust, love and need for "them".

They take the razor blade of selective perception and decide, okay, so Peny and the Forum aren't what they appear to be BUT...and with a slice of the blade, cut out every question, doubt or discernment that threatens the belief that Lazaris, "himself", is true.

The thought of others, and myself in the beginning, doing this to ourselves is really outrageous. It is so wrong. Think about what kind of energy it takes, what life force is sucked out of you to NOT ask questions that threaten what you want to believe in.

It would be bad enough if Lazaris were real and people were doing this to themselves, overlooking the inconsistencies, the loss of credibility through Peny, and the lies of Lazaris himself - at least one very big major one I experienced myself - BUT to think about people doing this for a charlatan, a con man, an elaborate Lie is absolutely, absolutely unconscionable.

It is a moral and ethical outrage against everything good and decent.

That's why it matters to me. Did I grow through my relationship with Lazaris? Oh, yes, absolutely. But my biggest growth is found in leaving "him" and telling myself the truth.

And you know, it might also be an issue of the ends never justifying the means. I know I heard Lazaris say that on more than one occasion.

In this case, I think that very much applies. The means are very important here. Just because I got some "good stuff" out of it, doesn't make being violated, having my trust taken advantage of, being lied to and deceived okay or somehow not as bad or perhaps acceptable or even a write off.

I'm pissed. It matters to me, because my dignity as a human being and my feelings about being lied to matter. I guess to me it isn't a question of does Jach or Lazaris lying to me matter, as much as, do I matter?

All of my life the answer to that, when push came to shove, was no.

Well, today it's yes.

Jach is well aware that his little empire is built on the (false) sense of trust in "Lazaris." Trust is the goal of the love bombing, blending, all wise/loving deceptive tactics of J/L.

Jach's smartest move is to put his "Lazaris" spin on trust in hopes of shoring up the crumbling walls of Laziland. We know that a cult can be run without honesty or integrity -- see the many in denial of truth after the investigation reports we publicized. The power hinges on gaining and maintaining the trust of followers. That way they will go into denial of facts, allow themselves to be abused or whatever is dished out

Bottom line is No trust=no cult=no money.

"In Lazaris We Trust"

Jade