I hated to break that thread, but it's time to open a new one I'm afraid!

Bummer, I wont' be able to scroll down and read your posts as I write, but I'll try to remember.

Willow and Seeker, first let me say that neither Ted are I are going to give you any heat, or put any pressure to believe as we do. We have been over and over these issues time and again, sometimes until we just couldn't speak another word about it.

Don't forget, we have had the benefit of many hours (days, weeks, months?) of conversation withe each other, and other Friends and ex-Friends. It makes a big difference in our approach to things that we have already processed and sorted through so many things with each other.

Which is not to say that we are here needing to be right, or insisting that anyone else think or believe as we do.

As you both have stated, what we share in common is our experience and hurt via our interactions with C/S. I suppose if you or anyone were here telling us that Peny is really loving, and that we are in negative ego, etc. etc. you would get an argument, and a heated one. Otherwise, we have no need to debate or convince. We simply want to share our thoughts, and hear yours.

The hardest part of giving up my belief in Lazaris was my fear that in doing so I might offend and betray one who I believed had loved and supported me for many years. It scared and concerned me to think that I might be ungrateful to one who I believed had given me so much...but....there was the Peny thing, as both of you also have experienced. It seemed to be a hard hard nut to crack.

I have written about my process on the website, but I'll repeat it here, just in case it resonates or is helpful to anyone.

I so, so wanted Lazaris to be real. That was the one part of all this experience that I wanted to keep intact. Not only that, Peny had stated in the Forum that I had "thrown my spirituality out the window". At the time she said that, I knew in an instant that it wasn't true, I was a spiritual being long before I ever heard of Lazaris, but her words must have stuck inside me somewhere and planted seeds of doubts, because I was literally terrified of reaching out to that loving energy that I had come to know as Lazaris. I was afraid to reach out and find only a void. That would have sent me over the edge. So, instead of reaching out, I thought, and processed, and wrote, and discussed with anyone I could get to listen to me. My closest friends were really concerned, and even those who are not themselves friends of Lazaris asked me to be careful, to consider and reconsider, because they had always respected my devotion to Lazaris. They were afraid for me too, that I was rejecting something good and important in my life out of anger or vengeance. Ted wasn't with me on this in the beginning either. No one was.

So, one night I finally got the courage to reach out once again. I knew from my past experience that my questions were always answered, and that help was always right there when I asked. So, I asked, right before going to sleep, as was my practice.
I set up my crystal grid, touched my magic wand, did all the little rituals which had always helped me to connect and dream productively. Well, dream I did, and answered I was.

My dreams that night were rich and vivid, I was full of the magical energy and knowing that had begun to manifest for me. I was not alone in my dreams, not alone at all.

But, as I began to awake and consciously capture that twilight moment between sleep and full consciousness, that moment when our dreams are still vivid, I remembered that I had still had no answer. Lazaris...are you there, are you real?

The answer came like a jolt. "No loving helpful entity would ever select a specific individual through whom to channel information which would be helpful to all. They would not do so, because it would be an injustice. It would place too great a burden on the ego of the one chosen, and on the egos of those not chosen. It would also place a logicistical burden of time, space, money, etc. to those who sought the information via the need to buy tapes, books, or attend seminars. Any claims to such a relationship are false".

I wrote my recollection of these words on the website, and have not revisited them to check the wording. My memory is clear on this, I'll be interested to now go back and compare the words I used in writing this before. As you no doubt know, these messages don't actually come in words, but these words were strongly presented to me at the time. I'll be curious to check my memory again now, just to see if anything has changed.

Anyway, this...THIS is the energy, the wisdom, the love, that I have thought of as Lazaris. This energy is now telling me that the whole concept of anyone claiming to be specially chosen to channel any helpful loving entity is false. From that, I can only conclude, for myself, that Jach is a fraud.

Once I had gotten that message, I began to try to figure out how the hell Jach could pull this off. I had already been told that Jach, Peny, and Michaell had been students of Silva mind control prior to the "channelings" so I researched that. Then I came upon the hypnosis site which I mention on the website, and things started to really come together for me. Then I started to get little bits and pieces of the story of Jach and Peny. I was learning that the version of the Lazaris story that Jach tells is full of holes, deletions, inconsistancies, and flat out lies. I put out my feelers throughout the Bay Area where I live to find people who knew Jach and Peny in the early days. I got story after story, none of them flattering, none of them consistant with the stories Jach and Peny OR Lazaris tell. I spent months making phone calls, sending emails, reconnecting with anyone who had ever mentioned a connection to the early days here in California where "Lazaris" first came through. I questioned, called, interrogated, followed leads, you name it. I was a woman on a mission. Bit by bit, piece by piece, I got the story, to my satisfaction. And that is that Jach started his career as a flim flam man, and that he has been smart enough to hone his skills to the extent that he is successful enough to suck in droves of intelligent and sincere people.

Also during this time, I began to study cults. Ironically, I was not studying cults because of any of this, it had to do with my daughter, and my concerns about her husband.
That's another story though. But, as I studied and read up on cults, charasmatic groups, and mind control techniques, I really saw the whole thing come together.

The Forum functions as a cult by any definition of a cult.

So, there I had it, the whole picture. A young couple, a codependent twosome, one of whom has a lifetime fascination with Mme. Blavatsky, the woman who introduced the concept of trance channeling non physical spirits to the world, a woman who is a proven fraud, you have that couple now studying mind control techniques, engaging in multi-level marketing scams, conducting (participating in?) "business opportunity" seminars, and growing and developing a codependency which equals and surpasses any of record.
The next thing you have one of them all of a sudden "channeling" this entity whose first message is to tell the partner of the "channel" that she is a shining light in the universe, a stellar one, one of vast and enormous wisdom, love and compassion.

Well, I saw it, I saw the ego feast, the culmination of years of striving for wealth and power, the need of one to gratify and aggrandize the ego of the other, the early experimentation, the formation of the core group, the formation of the marketing plan, the early small possibly surprising successes, the continued successes, the quick flow of cash, the cultivation of followers, the romancing of the rich and famous, the romping of egos, the early need for followers, the gradually growing contempt for followers, the death of soul and conscience within the group, etc. etc. etc., all ending with the Forum, the freight train out of control, and me, Ted, and many who I love and respect sitting right there on the tracks, naive, honest, sincere, believers.

Without rehashing what I have already written even more, this is the story that unfolded for me.

Another point of interest is the fact that in all my research, I found not one person who spoke well of Jach or Peny from the group who knew them in the early days. Not even from those who are still friends of Lazaris. Not ONE good word for either of them, or for their Gangsters.

Are my writings here facts? No, only my own thoughts and feelings are offered as facts. I can't prove the text of my conversations with anyone, I can't prove any of this. But, it all makes sense to me, it all adds up.

Do I ask you to believe me? No. I ask you to believe in yourselves. Maybe you have some information or insights to offer me. No doubt you do.

Anyway, there is my story, my process, for what it's worth.

Thanks for being here, all of you, Willow, and Seeker for posting, and all you who are not posting.

Katie

That other thread was getting pretty long so I'm opening a new one.

Tip: When opening a new thread to continue an existing one, opening a new browser with the ld thread in it makes it easy to reference and cut and paste.

In the old thread people were discussing what it is that made us accept Lazaris with perhaps less discernment than we should have.

Speaking for myself, I don't think it was necessarily a lack of confidence or any kind of crisis in my life. I had always believed, and wanted to believe, in Magic. I felt that there must be a better way of living than has been taught to us by our various institutions. Perhaps because my family was so unhappy, I thought that people in general were less happy than they actually are.

So then the question was Why. Why are so many people unhappy? Or at least less happy than they would like to be. I didn't - and don't - accept that that's just the way it is: you do the best you can to get from one end of life to the other without too much pain.

I wasn't satified with that answer. I also wasn't satisfied with the Protestant work ethic - just work a lot harder and you can be a little more happy. In all honesty, I think there was much more happiness in the world than I was willing or able to see. But, nonetheless, the perception of a lack of happiness motivated me to explore less conventional avenues of success.

I wanted to work Magic and I tried many different approaches from chanting Nom myoho renge kyo and Hare Krishna to visualization and meditation. I had a fair amount of success, probably mostly due to my determination to not let fate, karma or circumstances dictate my level of happiness.

I had played around with metaphysics - doing past-life regressions, working with crystals, even working with my Future Self. But I didn't have a clear idea of what I was doing.

Then I heard a Lazaris tape. Finally, here was someone speaking clearly and specifically about how to work Magic. It appealed very much to my left brain. It appealed to my sense of order, that this energy - this Magic - could be consciously, purposefully and systematically directed. I appreciate my work as a software engineer because I know that if my program doesn't work, I can fix it. I know that the computer will respond in a logical and predictable way. Predictable, that is, if the programming is done properly. Of course there is the rare occasion that there is a bug in the operating system, or there is something else beyond my control - but it is very rare. That means I almost always have the power to make it work the way I (or my employers[g]) wish.

If this same methodical approach can be taken to program success in life, then I'm in. I do believe that it can be done. I believe that I have done it - not perfectly, but better and better with more practice and understanding.

"Lazaris" put so much of the concepts of Reality Creation in perspective in a very accessable format. The Higher Realms myth made it more credible - the ability to create one's reality consciously was no longer just wishful thinking on the part of imperfect and desperate humans - it was verified by a "Higher Being". Perhaps in that sense it was a lack of confidence - I didn't believe in my own instincts and intuition about Reality Creation, I needed confirmation from on high.

Well, that confirmation is gone now. But I still believe in our ability and our right to create our own reality as we wish. That we sometimes fail is no cause for shame and especially is no justification for judgments from others.

So, for me there were what I believe to be healthy reasons for my interest in "Lazaris". The unhealthy part may have been the lack of Self-Trust that I could figure it out for myself, perhaps with help of real friends. I do know that I've evolved enough to not need the "Lazaris" crutch anymore. And I may still make some mistakes in judgment in the future, but that's part of the growing process.

As for "Lazaris" offering help, I don't see any problem with accepting help from someone to accomplish something that we are struggling with, or even not strugging. Help could be simply a gift. It's not always a manipulation or act of "saviourhood". When we give a gift to someone, it doesn't necessarily mean that we think we're in a superior position, that the person can't acquire the gift on their own. It could be a way of expressing our Love and Humanity. That "Lazaris" claimed to offer us a gift of help doesn't mean that we needed it. That "Lazaris" misrepresented "their" true motivation and identity is a big problem. That "they" misused beautiful Truths doesn't make them any less true. It's not the acceptance or offering of help that's the problem - it's the manipulation of the "giver" and the deference of the "recipient" that are at issue.

_____________________________________________
Guess Jach wasn't the only one in a trance..Maybe he was the only one not in trance..lol
_____________________________________________
Hello:
I stopped working with Lazaris some years ago after a bad experience at a weekend event. My healing has taken some years, but with the help of the Goddess, Reiki, reading up on Jungian psychology, and screwing my head on I am getting there.

Earlier this year reflecting on my experience while meditating, I asked why did the experience I had at the weekend why did it have to happen that way?
The reply was clear: "We had to shock you out of your enchantment."

Eagles Speak

At the request of the writer, I'm posting from several emails I've received over the past week or so.

quote:

---

I have been reading on your site since around Valentine's Day, when Igot an email from a friend saying check this out. All I could do thatday at work was repeatedly return to this site and pour over the postings. I have been wanting to send you a message or comment or something, but just wonder where to start and also see from the poststhat you receive a lot of email. I hesitate for now to post because I have just recently started to get email savvy and am still learning the game, and though I was never a member of the forum, friends were and Ismelled the burning going on.
I do want you to know that this site has confirmed so much of my own intuitive feelings and has initiated a process that I know I am in the middle of and have no perspective yet on all the ramifications. And I thank you so very much for that. I particularly am at peace when I readyour well-thought out and so reasonable, non-judgemental posts. Your energy seems sparkly, (not like sparky), light and safe to me. I appreciate that as an initiating force of the info here.

I went to Lazaris seminars for 10 years. I started cutting the afternoon sessions and some meditations because I wanted to go sit by the pond and watch the birds in Orlando and to go for an afternoon run on the golf course (it's cold here in NY!). And, I was tired of ALWAYShaving to encounter resistances in meditations, etc.
I just slowly kinda got tired of the whole thing. I stopped ordering tapes a couple of years ago when I realized it was tiring to go through all the steps, etc.; I wasn't getting anything out of it.
Initially, in 1989, I bought two Lazaris tapes and a book. Boy did those techniques work! As soon as I started to go to seminars, they didn't work so well. SOmething about the seminars always bothered me. Lazaris' energy always seemed patriarchical, negative male energy, eventhough he seemingly promoted the feminine so. I particularly felt this after Lazaris publicly humiliated me at a SF intensive in 1992. I blamed myself for that, but I didn't like seeing how he selectivley abused others in the same way with no purpose served.

I always steered clear of CS, except for the one time I was really brokeand wanted to go to an evening and thought I'd volunteer to work. Of course I thought I'd get a discount on the seminar - only martyrs work if they don't get paid! I was dumbfounded when I found out these people volunteer. Looking back on it, I'm surprised they didn't make them pay extra for the privilege....I tried hard to see what Lazaris saw in Peny, and to like her, but I just always got negative vibes from her - I felt like she was very competitive and controlling.

The funniest thing is I always felt like Lazaris just didn't like me. I
had field days of self-punishment with that idea of course. Sounds so
childish. The three times I got the mike, he really focused on my
weaknesses and I swear, I felt like his intention was to make sure I
didn't walk away feeling powerful.
The last seminar I attended was in Jan this year in Orlando.

I had gotten into the habit of going with a friend of mine (who really got
slammed last year on the FOrum - for
having the temerity to suggest something concerning manner of communication...) in order ot visit with her when she was not in the seminar. I did go to the evening in Jan., and I walked out before break
because it was dead, to me - no energy left, nothing new, etc. I spent late Sat. nite in the hot tub with another friend finding myself going on and on about how CS had turned Lazaris into an organized religion,
and about how they moved to Orlando in order to build a Lazaris theme park (Enter the underworld, visit the Cave of the Ancient ones and the Horrible Hall of the Negative Ego!)

My friends and I did buffer the reality of what was going on with humor. Last year, that same friend had taken the Millenium Lazaris flyer into his graphic arts studio and created a slightly doctored
version of the flyer entitled "Millpenyum". He put it back in the
original CS envelope, sealed it up with a typewritten label and mailed
it to our other friend....what a laugh.
Through all this, I never felt as hooked into the whole thing as much as
so many people seemed.

I'm an astrologer, and artist, I've been into
metaphysics long before I met Lazaris. What I find so ironic is how
much finding this site has shifted my perspective on the last ten years
of my life - I ambeginning to understand that unbeknownst to me, despite
my wariness, someting did a big number on me. I don't want to get into
blaming these beings for my mistakes in life in the last ten years, but
I definately was duped { I read or heard early on that Jach & Peny were
encouraged by Lazaris to start other businesses so that CS didn't need
to be for profit (they could bilk people out of money in those other
businesses, I guess was the idea)}. How brainwashed was I and to what
extent, even though I thought I was staying on the fringe? I guess this
is the process all go through. Honestly, though, partially because my
initial negative reactons were with Lazaris rather than CS, bottom line
I think I still equate Lazaris with the enregy of a negative
old-testament type punishing God force. I think I still feel afraid of
him squelching my majick - this is just becoming clear to me as I write.

This is slightly rambling, and I wasn't sure what I was going to say &
in what order, etc. Thank you for reading/listening. If you want to
post all or part of it for any reason, that's ok with me. ( I think
I've got some issue with going public, here!)And thank you and Ted for
creating this site, and for being who you are.

I never had any personal interaction with
Peny, except for thehostile stare the one time I went over to introduce herself
at Jach's bday party...still, I gotta get this projected fear of the vengeful
she-god out of my crosshairs. I and some of my friends had written to share
experiences twith Peny & CS over the years and never received any
acknowledgement (one of my friends was apologizing for accidently
signing on to
the early COmpuserve forum Lazaris over-the computer bending experiences as
Lazaris himself -Peny kept demanding whover has signed on as Lazaris get off
now!!! - he didn't realize what he'd doneso it took while of reading &
wondering oh who's the poor person who (obviously accidently) signed on as
Lazaris and is getting Peny so pissed of till he got kicked off by the host.
Too bad he didn't take the opportunity to put in his two bits as
"Lazaris"....). So thank you.

One of my very best friends did have a horrible Forum experience (details edited by Katie to protect the
innocent) By that time, I wasn't surprised at all - I
ALWAYS got
bad vibes from the Peny & L. tapes, even though I liked the info.

I'm really still unraveling and trying to figure out what I've
experienced/experiencing. I was always angry at Lazaris underneath for dissin'
people. Of course, I thought I was in child sooo big. I also looked around
and saw so many people going into massive debt just to make it to those
seminars ( not to mention the whole crystals thing - how could anyone go
to a
crystal seminar and feel okay about not being able to afford a humongeous
one(bigger is better, of course)?- people who had big job/career/money issues
and didn't have jobs, necesarily. I came to the conclusion that there
were a
lot of people there who seemed to be off-balance in their lives (me included),
and not moving forward or getting anywhere with their issues on an outer
level. Even though I included myself, I thought it was my Arrogance. Common
Sense never had so many aliases.

I realize a lot of this is the produced effect ofmind control, even
though I
haven't read much about that (didn't seem like a growth-oriented path of study
to me). I do remember, ironically, just before I started going to Lazy
seminars (yeah, I felt lazy so much of the time- like I was too screwed
up to
do anything), that I ran into someone who had studied Silva Mind
COntrol, and
it did sound interesting at the time...I almost signed up for a course.
Hmmmm....

I always had this wierd sick feeling of I didn't "get it" as much as I should
have driving home. I hated Sundays - I had to go back to my life that wasn't
changing. Since I slowed down & stopped going, I get things done. Get to
travel just for fun.

I get a lot out of reading other people's experiences, here, Katie. For that
reason, I'd say, yeah, post any of this - I'm sure newcomers at least
are as
curious about others coming to terms with all the revelations as I am. I'm
very curious about anybody's underlying doubts during using tapes, going to
seminars. And what was all that fighting over chairs about? Has
anybody else
ever seen a roomful of adults get into so many ridiculous scuffles over
seating? That always completely baffled me.

I do enjoy reading your posts(and others, too), and I'm feeling good
about all
this!

Thanks for posting "for" me ! I guess I'm a real lurker. If you just post from my email, that will be fine with me. It's funny, I have my dearest friend from Lazaris seminars(met in SF 1992); and she directed me to this site - she was the...(details edited) target last year. . She, like others, decided for the time being to not risk getting expelled and made a conscious decision to suck up and apologize and disappear. I just got an email from her today; she has her own reasons for continuing to go to seminars for now - so it's funny how this whole thing makes generally sane, confident people think twice about revealing friends publicly, etc. (In rereading the (Forum slaughter) reference, I just had a twinge of oh what if they figure out that my friend's friend is posting....will they banish her?) These are sick thoughts - really, they are, so post the previous emails to you without editing - I just look at this in reverse - ok, if people like me are responding to CS as if they are Nazi Germany, and there are many like me who have similar responses... I don't even know what my complete perspective is or how I would present it to anyone, but the stench is overwhelming.

I have been going back in my spare time and reading old threads - there are some conversations I surely will get into.

Katie wrote [Quote]"This is a universally expressed sentiment, this feeling of frustration and
failure. For a body of work that is supposed to help us elegantly and
effortlessly create our reality, we all certainly sweat a lot of blood and
tears. I think it is very painful and shaming for a lot of people to admit
that these techniques haven't been working for them. It feels good to me
just to say it now. I did have my successes and joys of course through
those years, sometimes I wonder if I wouldn't have had many more if I wasn't
spending half my time beating myself up that the 33 second technique never
worked for me!"

---

This is exactly my biggest nut to crack with Lazaris, whomever he may be. I felt and observed so much of this, and so much of people talking themselves out of and around it. I still hear excuses, and my perspective here is strong - they either work or they don't and you know it like you know whether you've just given birth or not! I've had techniques work, and when they do, it's an experience that validates to the core. One does not spend a half hour on the phone with a friend going round and round about how the miracle happened over here or over there instead and excuses, incredibly imaginative rationalizations.....I just heard others and tried hard myself so much in trying to reason that something happened.

Personally, I think I would've had more success in life in the last ten years if I hadn't spent so much time trying to do these things....and so much of it was so plain corny. The real thing for me is somehow, I got real hung up on being a failure, and I felt like I would never get all the problems healed, and I had to settle for a second choice life.

Now, you can imagine the freedom in my process triggered by all the experiences and thoughts posted here relative to that. Loads of work to do, here, but I'm excited about it most of the time.

I'm off this weekend to paint and plaster some more on a beach house in a run-down old New Jersey boardwalk town that some friends and I purchased last fall (the house, not the town!). It's right out of a Bruce Springsteen song, and we love it. I can't even see a tree from my place in the city, so I'm in love with every weed and blade of grass in the yard.[/Quote]

But there came a time, when the counsellor introduced me to the AM**Y marketing scheme which is pyramidal in nature. I was very sceptical about it but found myself agreeing to buy into the whole scheme. I later regreted it and felt that I had been jostled into it and that she had misused her influence over me to buy into it. According to her, this business opportunity was in line with L. I saw the light and pulled out of that one.

Then later, in a group discussion (not group therapy) my counsellor used her "therapeutic" knowledge of my life to make a dig at me to which I responded by removing myself from the group and terminated her services. I was very hurt and angry. I explained to her very clearly that her comments ammounted to malpractice and were damaging especially in a group.

I have since then not been involved with the L material at all, although some of the concepts are still useful to me.

Humans are such paradoxical creatures. On the one hand they can be beautiful, open, truthful, loving and gentle and on the other, ugly, lying, cheating and so forth. I try to strive for what is the clearest most truthful expression of who I am, without forgetting that I am capable of doing the most evil of deeds. I have recently understood that we become what we judge.... What a horrifying thought!!!

So becareful folks!

I have had a similar experience to the one you described, although I would use the term "confrontational" rather than punitive.

I am in the process of leaving a group that uses the Lazaris material heavily. The process of leaving promises to be very painful, and it may well involve being rejected by people that I love. So, I can relate to what you were describing.

I have to admit that the material has been helpful over the years. What I have witnessed occurring in the past 3 years with Concept Synergy, and the group I have been working with, is an abuse of power and manipulation. And, it is devastating.

Congratulations on leaving that conseling situation. That took courage. And, thanks for your honesty and candor.

Thanks for this web site. It has helped me clarify my feelings, and make the changes I need to make.

Hi there,

You wrote-
"I am in the process of leaving a group that uses the Lazaris material heavily. The process of leaving promises to be very painful, and it may well involve being rejected by people that I love. So, I can relate to what you were describing."

I can relate to what you are saying. I had a very similar experience. I knew it was important for my own empowerment to leave the group I was in, but it was difficult, and many of the people who I had thought were such good friends wanted nothing to do with me once I left. They seemed to think that leaving the group meant I was abandoning my spirituality, or that I must be deep in "neg. ego". Actually for me it was a coming home to self trust. And it was painful to realize that what I thought were such deep friendships were not. The healing took time. And there is a beautiful light at the end of the tunnel. I will say that in talking with other people who left the group it turns out that everyone left for similar reasons i.e. abuse of power, leaders on pedastals who could do no wrong or have any negative impact etc. It helped me to feel that my discernment was correct for not only me but others too. The freedom I experience now as a "free agent" is wonderful.

So I wish you well with your experience, with healing and empowerment also.

I am new here. I just wrote a letter to Katie I would like to share with you.

Dear Katie,

I am so shaken. A close friend of mine sent me a link to your website. I have been praying some answers for sometime now and I think I just found them. My friends and I have always wondered if what had happened to me in the Forum had happened to others. Your experience with the Forum is so close to mine it sickens me. It took me months to get over it and to this day the thought of Peny and Jach brings a knot to my gut. I was publicly burnt at the stake as they all (The Gang) went on a witch-hunt for me one day. Like you I had spent years buying tapes, never experiencing Peny first hand. When I got on the Forum I was so excited because I thought, "Wow I have found my community!" I spent much time reading and writing posts. I was generally snubbed or ignored but I still felt apart of an important process. The 'Burning' tore me apart but something very important happened. I now NEVER, EVER place someone else in a position of authority over me. Even some like the all-loving Lazaris.
When looking back, I too did nothing wrong in the Forum. Peny was simply acting in a paranoid manner and took exception to a very simple statement. At first Jach even agreed with what I said but then I have a feeling Peny railed on him because he changed his tune. I tried to apologize for hurting Peny's feelings but I refused to say that what I wrote was wrong. I was then called everything in the book, martyr, etc. In the end Jach told me that I had "Insulted Lazaris". When this happened something rose from deep inside me and said, "NO!" That goes against everything that I have ever believed or was taught by Lazaris themselves. If a Being is without ego, they can not be insulted. It is as simple as that. Jack crossed a line with me and I could not take Concept Synergy serious anymore. I do feel there is incredible material and many wonderful insights and lessons but I am not willing to sell my soul to get them.

I have so much more I would like to say...
Lynn Daniluk

IF Lazaris is "real," then what he taught is true. He said over and over again, "These techniques WORK!" Do they? I remember when I first started working with him there was talk about putting together a book about "success stories." Where are all the successes? I want to believe Lazaris is who he claims to be. I am asking if you have successfully used his manifestation techniques, please post here and tell us about it. Also, if you have had any personal experiences with Lazaris that spoke to you about his legitimacy, could you please share? Specific examples if possible.

Personally, I always had mixed feelings at the seminars. What he said seemed so true, yet there were also lingering doubts. One time when I went up to say hello, he looked at me and smiled and said, "Look at you!" like he knew me, although we had never met, and, "You are doing beautifully!" That was so meaningful to me, because I want so much to be successful in my spiritual growth, and so often I feel like I should be doing better. Did any of you have a similar encounter?

As far as manifestation, I was very attracted to the idea that "you can have it all!" You don't have to give up material abundance for spiritual advancement, awesome! And that you could magically create WHATEVER YOU WANTED! Well, a few months after my introduction to Lazaris, I was so excited, I couldn't wait to manifest abundance so I could stay home with my baby and not have to go back to work. And I tried the techniques, especially the 33-second technique. Up to this point in my life I had had smooth sailing. But wow, what I got now was something else. Among other things, my mom had a stroke, I made the 2-hour drive to go to her, leaving my nursing baby behind, my transmission went out in my car, and there I was, no way to get back home, my mom severely ill... I remember screaming at Lazaris, "You said it would be so easy!" Now maybe there was no connection, but it sure seemed like there was. That was 13 years ago and I am still scared to try to manifest, and since then I have just tried to work on my personal growth. But I have continued to use the Lazaris material, along with other sources, to develop my philosophy of life, including the idea that we create our own reality, which I believe 100%.

So, I am asking that this topic be used for you to share whatever specific experiences you have had that make you believe (or not believe) in Lazaris. Thanks!!!

It does get more emotional when you start getting to know people better, to hear the many ways in which this Con:Sin scam has hurt them.

Ted and I can probably award ourselves the honor of having heard more personal stories about that than anyone else on the planet unless you count Jach/zaris. It doesn't seem to bother him at all though.

For that reason, maybe some can grant me their indulgence about the intense emotions I express here sometimes. I am emotional about the pain and confusion and sense of betrayal that has been reported to me by many many people, some who have never posted a word here. People come to me and Ted looking for help. All we can do is direct them to this site, and hope they find it, as many of us have. It is heart rending though, that I will tell you.

Ted, Marilyn and I went through the really hard hard times together, with a good amount of support and love from several others along the way.(some still among the faithful) I was so incredibly grateful once I got my bearings to have had others to talk all this out with. It was a very very emotional and profound time for all of us.

I am delighted that this site has provided a place for others to find the good company of others who are interested in discussing Con:Sin, Lazaris, and the impact of the teachings and behaviors on the followers. That is not a taboo topic here as it is on the Forum.

Sometimes I just feel a sense of awe when I read here, like the recent posts from Nancy and Lynn, where the emotion is so clear and honest.

I know, I've been there! And I do know how good it feels to be looking back rather than
still standing in the questions and doubts.

In saying that I hope it's clear that I'm not trying to come from a place of superior wisdom about all this, just a place of experience.

I still have many questions, but I have no doubts whatsoever that this sharing here is a very very good thing.

This site is not only about anger, although some would attempt to judge it so. It is about emotion, and the free expression of it.

I hope more people come too Aud, but I suspect that there are very few people who have involvement with Con:Sin who haven't already read on this site. Humans see what we want to see, or only what we are ready and comfortable to see, so just like someone recently mentioned that we all here the Lazaris tapes differently, I think it's fair to say that everyone reads what is written here differently too. For some, this is just a bad energy place. Too bad about that, because all and everyone have the ability to create the energy here.

Katie

I am one of those people who has been reading for awhile, and not posting. I am going through some big life changes right now, and being a bit slow, it takes me more than 33 sec. ;-) to post! I am also very concerned with anonymity, which I think I have covered. Someone please let me know if this is not true!

Thank you, Katie and Ted, for this open forum. I learned of this site shortly before the Orlando death debacle, and have followed many threads with interest.

I have been working with Lazaris and the material for well over 15 years. I never got involved in the Forum, as I didn't get "wired" early on, and then didn't like what I had heard about the Forum. I was aware of extreme right-wing political views, which I found odd, and had a sense of the inner circle mentality that has been discussed here. I also sensed there was a lot of pressure to conform, and had already developed opinions about a lot of things about C:S and the way they did business, and especially the triumverate, that I didn't feel good about. I was also told about some behavior that seemed disturbing, but I did not know the extent of it until reading posts here. (Except for being told about a staff member who was hounded and humiliated awhile ago.)

I had met and seen Peny many years ago, several different times, including at some workshops. (These weird numerological spellings, btw -- gadzooks!) I had also heard her on the "Lazaris and Peny" tapes. I found her to be rude, odd in an uninteresting way, a bit frightening, and unpleasant, for the most part. I did not sense that she was especially enlightened or inspiring. Of course I second-guessed myself for many years: I must be jealous because Lazaris came to talk to her and not me, or everyone. I must be intimidated because she is so honest, and not a martyr, like me. I must just be dense not to perceive how great she is.

The last time I had the opportunity to interact with her and the entourage, at the Millenium, I had no desire to do so. I think I must have been in the process of getting sick from the "exquisite gourmet vegetarian feast" we had been led to look forward to for a year or two! More on that later, unless that has been discussed to death already. (Oddly enough, that cheap, grotesque event was one of the things that has caused me to really question a lot of things. Talk about the emporer having no clothes!!)

Over the last few years a dialogue began with a few friends with whom I could be honest. We discussed for a long time that our relationship with and feelings for Lazaris were separate from C:S. That seemed to make sense, but it doesn't any more. Lazaris is supposedly aware of the thoughts and feelings of those in his domain -- I have certainly felt like he was aware of mine! Why on earth would he accept cavalier attitutes, abuse, or cruelty, in members of the organization that presumably exists to support and communicate his work? (Incidentally, Lazaris discusses in great detail who they are and where they come from on an older tape which is no longer available from C:S, I believe. I think it is called Lazaris Talks About Lazaris, or something like that. From what I can remember, it is very similar to what was written in the books later, but I think it is more elaborate. It has been a long time since I heard it.)

I have not reached any conclusions about whether or not Lazaris is actually an entity channeled through Jach. I find it hard to believe that Jach and crew could prepare all of that material, synthesized though it could be from so many different sources, and also present it as it comes to us. The material, although possibly declining in recent times, is chock full of detail, and presented rapidly, without hesitation, in a very organized and cogent format. I have never met a human being I thought capable of pouring out that quantity, no less quality, of memorized or spontaneious information, non-stop, for hours at a time, and then to resume, sometimes for days on end.

As far as information about the participants, I do think there is ample opportunity to gather data, even in seeming social interactions. I happen to know that the people who speak to Lazaris during crystal ceremonies are, as has been stated here, telling him about the number of people left, and the time. But that still doesn't preclude information being given at other times. I have had some extremely personal things said to me by Lazaris, that I have always thought he could not have known by "normal" means. Even "in" jokes about things in my life. But really, that info. could have been given to Jach or Lazaris by others. He has said things in blendings that it seems nobody else would know. But I wonder. He has also told me things that have been true and helpful about my attitudes and behaviors. Some past life information also makes a lot of sense in patterns I am even now dealing with.

So, I don't know. But I do know that there is a lot rotten about C:S, and the hierarchy that existed. I am confused about allusions to Jach's handlers -- I always had the sense that Peny/Michaell/Jach were the absolute rulers. BTW, does anyone know what happened to staff members who have disappeared? Maybe that's already been covered too. If it has, I apologize.

Well, this is already long. I have a lot to say, but I will sign off for now.

Thanks,

I was reading in Jeremiah's post - "To my knowledge, nowhere on this board has anyone ever denied or offered an alternate, positive, view of these people or the company they represent." I wanted to share some of my experiences with Jach, Peny and C/S. I have avoided this previously because I do not want to be identified by my experiences. At this point, I still want to maintain my C/S forum membership.

I've been involved with Lazaris since 1988-89. For many years I just read and reread the books. I loved them and finally went to an evening around 1990. It blew me away. I didn't get half of what he said and I took bazillions of notes. I just "knew" this was the best source of info I had ever come across and I'd still feel that way to this day but I'm now rethinking things. The info just seemed unparalleled and so far ahead of any "human" source.

I finally started buying tapes in the mid-'90's and I joined the forum around '96-'97. I never was involved with the Compuserve forum. My initial experiences with the forum, Jach, Peny and the "Orlando Gang" were pleasant and informative. I didn't and still don't know anyone personally who studies Lazaris and rarely do I ever meet or talk to anyone who has even heard of him. (You've probably guessed I'm not from California -(s)) When I heard about the new forum I couldn't wait to become a member and finally converse with people who were involved with and studied Lazaris.

Anyway, I jumped right in and started asking general questions I had about spirituality. I had no experience posting and aside from worrying about sounding stupid or that no one would reply to me, I had no concerns about what I said being "appropriate". The usual - Jach, et.al. responded immediately to my questions and I was delighted. Not Jach, but the others could be very blunt but no one was unkind. I was still studying various sources at the time and brought them into the discussion and I do remember feeling they were dismantled and I was shown how Lazaris was a superior source. But I accepted all that because these people had studied Lazaris much longer than I and I thought knew so much more than I did.

Later I got involved in the numerology threads and Jach was very kind and helpful answering my questions and helping me with figuring out how I wanted to change my name.
I remembered thinking, "Why is he taking so much time to reply to all of these questions and help all these people with their names when he doesn't have to?" The answer I came up with at the time was he was very kind and giving and was really committed to the forum and helping people.

I was still posting when all the progesterone threads were running and then didn't post for quite a few years. I'd read from time to time and when I did I would sometimes come across a slaughtering. I would read and be amazed at what I didn't know about neg. ego, martyr, etc. because I would always be reading the post that started it all and I'd be thinking "What's so bad about that?" or "Wow, I could have just as easily said that." or "Well, shoot, I see it that way too." I would read and think and think until I could see how the person being slaughtered was in the wrong. And, I actually would end up "seeing" this.
But, inside somewhere, I think I knew something was not right about all this. Just like everyone else I came up with all kind of ways to explain or justify the stuff I saw and was horrified by. If you read along enough, you just learn how to post and what to say so it won't happen to you. Of course, that makes for a pretty dead forum and I basically stopped posting because I didn't want to go anywhere near where I might become part of a feeding frenzy.

During this time I also went to one weekend. During a blending Lazaris said something to me and it seemed directly in response to something I had said "in my head" to Lazaris the night before in a blending. That was very meaningful and I still can't explain it except for I may have raised a similar issue in a request for a reading (which I didn't receive) many years before. It is conceivable, that they try to "speak" to first time seminar attendees and use info they have to make it seem very "real". I remember being very overwhelmed with all in the information at the weekend and the intensity of it and half way through Saturday I was crying hysterically to my husband on the phone that I wanted to come home. I thought it was neg. ego so I fought it and stayed the weekend and felt glad I did and didn't cop out. Maybe it was my HS telling me to get out?.

That takes me up to this past year when I started posting again and when I really started to notice that something seemed very wrong.

I've gotta' go for now but will continue with my thoughts about this past year.

Thanks for the space to share my experiences.

I wanted to continue posting about my experiences this past year with the C/S forum. My impression of what I've seen in the forum is that it's gotten progressively nastier. I completely missed Forum Storm but started to read again when Jach announced no more traveling (I think last summer). I witnessed the crucifixion of that girl who posted that she had other than completely happy feelings about Jach's decision. As I read along, it again confirmed for me how careful you had to be while posting and not reveal your true thoughts if they were in anyway contrary to the popular opinion. I also remember thinking - "I'm so glad that's not me". She seemed to really struggle and apologize and nothing seemed good enough. In the midst of all this Peny laid into one of there own employees. All of this was amazing to watch.
I also remember Peny saying about some guy from California who made some sort of remark about Jach and an elevator that if she were there she'd have hit him or slapped his face. I remember thinking - "Why is it ok for you to say that stuff but it's not ok for this man to say something about Jach?"
I'm rambling here - but the jist is unless you had something only positive to say you weren't supposed to say anything at all. Now I rationalized this by seeing their point that you should process these feelings in private but then, what point is this forum. It becomes ridiculous when you think about it. You wouldn't be able to trust any of the info there because it had all been sterilized into what C/S wanted people to see and read and think.

In the fall I became interested in trying progesterone again. I posted a question in the Health and Healing section. Peny immediately replied and told me she could answer my question but she wouldn't because it was too much like giving medical advise and that had become to risky and for me to search the internet. My basic question was - if one is taking progesterone at higher doses than typically recommended and for the whole cycle, then how does this not simulate pregnancy and how do you still menstruate.
I tried to rephrase my question several times - I wasn't asking for medical advise just a scientific explanation of how it was possible to do this and still have your period. Peny's posts were short and cordial but she would not answer my question. In the process of this I noticed something I had most likely seen before but didn't really pay attention to. If Peny posted in a thread, depending on what she said she could completely stop all discussion. After she posted to me I started to get private E-mail. This was something I never experienced before in the forum. Since the original progesterone threads had various people posting their experiences and products etc. I was confused about why there could be no discussion now. I asked in the forum about this and Peny told me the government has gotten alot nastier about people without medical licenses giving advise. I accepted that but the whole private E-mail thing was tedious. It was much nicer when people could post in a thread and you'd have a whole mix of ideas.
For any of you who are still forum members, you can still read this thread in the Health and Healing section. I think the last post was in Feb.2001. It was in this thread in, I think, Feb. that an Orlando Gang member posted a reply from Peny to someone saying that Peny didn't have time to post but everything was fine and she'd be back to posting soon but here's what Peny wanted me to write to you. I remember thinking that was strange and Peny had been missing from the forum now since Oct.

Anyway since I got no answers in the forum I did what Peny suggested and started my own search into progesterone. Someone told me that the "scientist" Peny referred to was Raymond Peat. (I think someone mentioned the "scientist" in another post in this forum and speculated it was a muscle tester that got dropped eventually - I strongly believe it was Raymond Peat and I do not believe Ray Peat has anything to do with muscle testing - so, I don't think this muscle testing person and Ray Peat are one and the same). I was extremely grateful for this info because I was already looking into Ray Peat as a good source of info and now that I was pretty sure this was Peny's "scientist", I felt I was on the right track. But stuff really started to bother me. I had always assumed this "scientist" was a private source Peny hired and could afford to do so. I do not know for sure Peny's scientist was Raymond Peat but my investigations lead me to believe this. If you read Ray Peat's books and then look at the posts where she refers to this "scientist" the info is practically word for word out of his books. What upset me is why didn't she just say - I work with Ray Peat - or here's what Ray Peat has to say about this. And also - ANYONE can consult with this "scientist". When I got his books and I saw that you could just call and set up a phone appt. I couldn't believe she'd keep this a secret and make this seem like a private scientist only they had access to. I've talked to him many times. Very nice man and very knowledgeable. Anyone here can consult with Ray Peat. This I just couldn't reconcile in my mind along with discrepancies in what Peny said in the original progesterone/pregnenolone threads and what I was learning from Ray Peat himself. I knew I couldn't post any of my feelings or thoughts on the forum but I really needed some clarification on this one.
There was secrecy and squelching of info here and I couldn't reconcile that with the Peny that Lazaris had described and the Peny who I truly believed never lied and was always speaking her highest truth. I E-mailed her privately about this - I think in December. I truthfully didn't really expect a reply and I did not get one. But I had to ask these questions. Now granted, she may not have been able to reply if she was sick.
All this made me start to have very serious doubts about C/S and Peny et. al.

This is probably already too long. It's hard for me to put all this into writing. It seems to take alot of writing to say what I want to say.

I'll write more later.

Dogstar

Thank you for asking questions and asking for clarification of somethings I wrote. Like I said, this is hard for me to put into writing and I want very much to be as accurate as possible and not misrepresent anything.

The thread I started on progesterone I'm pretty sure was early Oct. 2000. So, Peny's posts to me where she was not willing to give me info were all dated then. Does that correspond with when you started this site and/or had discussions about giving medical advise?

Yes, the progesterone/pregnenolone threads are still in the private library. You and I may disagree on the medical advise issue. My personal experience is that I can get practically zip from a licensed M.D. Even ones I've been associated with who have a wholistic approach have been arrogant and frankly, when it comes to progesterone, thyroid, pregnenolone, etc. I think I know circles around the traditional and non-traditional doctors I've been associated with. So, I was very appreciative of the original progesterone/pregnenolone threads. Anyone finding out a health thing they're excited about and sharing what they know is fine in my opinion even to the point they say it "completely safe" etc. since this is just their opinion. Now in Peny's case, the argument could be made she should have been extra careful because of the position she was in, the trust people had in her and the weight that was given to what she said. I, myself, am still glad those threads and other health threads existed and Peny said what she did because otherwise I doubt I'd have ever run into some of this info.

What I do have a problem with is I don't ever remember Peny ever disclosing her sources of the information she provided. Things were said like "the scientist we consult with" or "we get our (whatever) from a private source". This would disturb me because it felt like someone saying - "Here, (blank) is a great cure for (whatever). We found this out from our own private scientist. We have our own private source of the stuff. We're not going to share any of this info with you. Good luck trying to figure it out. By the way, aren't we brilliant?"

Now at the time I rationalized this by saying to myself Peny doesn't owe me anything. I should be grateful for whatever info I get and not expect her to do all the work for me. But -
I recently (when I was doing a search under Peny North and found this site) found a crystal chat thing and there were a few posts on it from Peny North. She was blasting someone for posting that crystals should never be used for healing cancer. Peny's main issue with this person was how dare they post such a thing without completely disclosing where and how they got this information so that others could check this out and so forth and so on.

Peny was posting to this person exactly what I felt about Peny's posts in the C/S forum. No one to my knowledge ever dared to ask who this scientist was so that we all could check out the info for ourselves. But again, I strongly believe it is Raymond Peat. Someone told me this and she got that information while talking with someone at a seminar. This person also told me that she was told Lazaris had expressed in various private consultations high regards for Raymond Peat's work. In addition, after you read Peat's books you see alot of the info. that was on the forum proceeded by "the scientist we work with told us ..."

I really feel Peny was wrong in not disclosing her sources of information, especially now that I am pretty sure that it was a public source and anyone could have had access to it. And she apparently expected this of other people when she was operating in other arenas.

I never asked Ray Peat directly if he knew Peny, etc. I did, at the beginning of our first conversation, mention that I heard of him through C/S and he said something like "Oh yes!" - that just confirmed for me that he knew them and worked with them.

To clarify, the E-mails I spoke of receiving were not from Peny. They were from very kind people who knew I was trying to get some answers and it wasn't going to happen on the forum and they were nice enough to E-mail me with there own experiences and information. I E-mailed Peny in Dec. directly asking her if Ray Peat was the scientist she consulted with and if so why did she choose to keep that information from everyone. I also, like I said, had found some discrepancies between what Peny said in the old progesterone/prenenolone threads and what I was currently discussing with Ray Peat. I felt these should be brought out into the open on the forum and discussed but I knew if I just posted this stuff I'd be slaughtered so I decided to ask her privately in an E-mail about the discrepancies. Like I said - I got no reply from her.

One other thing for now. At the end of March someone posted a thread in the Health and Healing section of the forum with a link in it to a site with an article by Ray Peat on coconut oil. A day or two after I saw the post I went back to check out the link and the post was gone. I thought I was loosing my mind - "I know I saw this..." (You all have experienced disappearing posts - this was my first time - I had no idea they just deleted posts at their discretion)
I was horrified and upset and immediately posted in the same section asking if anyone else had seen this post or was I crazy etc.
Very shortly thereafter my post disappeared. Now I was really loosing it - "What is going on here - why are they doing this?" I called the office and they said to E-mail this person in forum mgmt. At the time my ability to send E-mail was down so I posted to her in, I think, the Forum Guidelines section and asked what was up with the disappearing posts.
Within minutes that post disappeared. Then I received an E-mail telling me they would check into it but there was no need for me to start a thread accusing people of deleting my posts if I simply have a question as to why I see a post is no longer there. No where had I accused anyone of deleting posts. They just kept disappearing and I was horrified to find out that they were just deleting them. I was also told in the future to E-mail forum mgmt. if I had a question about a post. I interpreted this as don't question anything in the light of day. They did get back to me with an answer - they were writing what Jach told them to say - the link was to a commercial site and that was not allowed on the forum because it would allow for it to be turned into a bulletin board kind of place. They did provide me with the link. I can tell you these E-mails were not signed with Much Love.
No one was nasty but I got a big taste of the controls that are in place there. It was an eye opener.

Thanks for the space to share.

Dogstar

Thought it might be interesting to set aside a thread where people could discuss some specifics in their personal interactions with Lazaris that led them to believe that Lazaris is either who he claims to be or not.

Some people have written that those experiences are too personal or private to share and thats fine, of course.

But others may have experiences to share that are not a violation of their privacy or that do not make them uncomfortable.

For me the biggest thing that points to Lazaris not being who he says he is has to do with his bad choice of playmates.

The second thing that points to fraud is Lazaris' veneration of Peny.

The third thing is the dependancy andt the mental, emotional, financial and psychic ill effects created in the "friends" cum followers of Lazaris.

How many "friends" do you have that invite you over to their place ask you to pay them several hundred dollars to stay the weekend while they share their wisdom and then allow you to be brutalized by the maid or other custodial help.

Sound familiar?

I do think on the other hand there is ample evidence that Jach is not crafty enough, slick enough or confident enough to have spouted some of the more insightful things that Lazaris has said in the way they are expressed.

It is also strange to me that Jach would make it so hard on himself as to have actual steps etc. to remember.

Knowing Jach the little that I do, I cannot imagine him taking the difficult road to any destination.

He could have more easily done a JZ Knight "Ramtha" act where he just pontificates in a formless structureless manner for several hours. No need for notes or heavy preperation that way.

But again on the other hand there is ample and convincing evidence that he did just that pulling from Jung, Seth and many others.

Strange, the one thing that always convinced me of Lazaris validity was his sense of irony, which Jach most decidedly doesn't seem to posess. Again that could be part of the act.

So I don't have conclusions here but plenty of questions.

It could also be that Lazaris dropped them sometime in the 80's and they have been improvising ever since.

The only problem with that argument is wouldn't Lazaris have announced his departure to his "friends" before left?

Wouldn't he have done so while our cherubic erstwhile insurance executive was in one of his "deep objective trances"?

If he is who he says he is then that would be the only fair thing to do for his "friends"

Whatever the case, you have to wonder is this the type of "friend" you want to close your eyes in front of and let them loot your mind?

Some people have alluded to experiences where there was clear psychic ability demonstrated but that doesn't confirm that Lazaris is who he says he is, only that he is psychic.

Big deal. lots of people are psychic.

I don't have any such experiences with Lazaris of feeling overwhelming love or emotional euphoria.

I just never had them with Lazaris. For me it was always about the information and exploring metaphysics and how it worked, the fact that Lazaris "loved" me was not what kept me hooked.

What kept me hooked was my perception that the information was of extremely high quality.

That perception is now subject to review [g]

So does anyone have any other experiences that confirm or deny the reality of Lazaris for them?

Cheers,

I would like to relay some of my personal experiences with Lazaris.

Just before my involvement, I had gone through a rough time making me vulnerable.

My first involvement with Lazaris, after listening to a handful of tapes and watching the "love" video, was in early 1989 at one of the Lemuria intensives. I can't recall for sure, but I think it was in Florida. During one of the blendings (or perhaps at the beginning of a mediation), Lazaris said "Craig let go of the tension in your back. You don't have to be perfect, just good enough". After he said that, I realized I was experiencing some lower back pain from all of the sitting at the workshop. Needless to say, I was very emotionally touched by him saying this. As I think about this critically, what he said could be explained by either pure psychic knowledge or by the "tricks" of fraudulent psychics. After all, most people would be experiencing some type of back tension after sitting so long. The statement about being perfect could apply to anyone to some degree. No matter how valid or bogus the information was, it certainly got my attention.

My notes from this seminar were very long, as this was the first time I was exposed to most of it. The love that I felt was overwhelming.. I was fascinated by the "magic time". I was absolutely delighted by the intensive. I couldn't get enough!

When I came back to work on Monday, there was a very promising business development that happened during the intensive and was now evident as I walked in the door. I remember thinking, sh*t, this stuff really works! It was a little scary.

After attending a couple of other seminars, I went to the intensive on archetypes in LA in mid 1989. During what is now called "magic time", I was given the mic. Surprisingly, I was nowhere near as nervous as I assumed I would be. This might have been the result of "blanking out" or "going numb". I really wish I had a tape recording of that session!

I asked Lazaris something in regards to future success in my business. I won't go into some of the details, but Lazaris said the issues was revolving issues with my father.

Well how would I rate the information from a psychic standpoint? I would give him good grades. One thing he clearly missed was the fact that my father was dead. I have subsequently heard him give some type of mumbo-jumbo explanation about his accuracy of taping into our illusion of time (made to another "magic time" participant to whom he made the same mistake).

Given all that he said about me, I would say there is a good chance of him having SOME type of psychic abilities. Let us not forget that A LOT of people have psychic abilities.

I attended a whole slew of seminars over the next 3 or so years. Despite applying technique after technique, my business situation did not improve significantly.

I was somewhat disheartened with the material. I no longer felt the magnificent boost after attending seminars as I did in the early involvement. The material was either getting repetitive or too far "out there" for my tastes. The ever present implication of this being the seminar that would be the missing link to making my life work no longer held much promise. I often blamed the fact that I am not a great visualizer on why I was no longer making much progress.

After I stopped going to the seminars and using the material as actively, I dabbled in some other spiritual searching. At this point, my business successes started to become significant. This new success was without a single technique, other than a lot of damn good win-win negotiating on my part. I'm sure if the success happened while in my intense period of Lazaris involvement, I would have wrongly credited him and his techniques for the success.

Let me state that I am very upset at one thing he said during the intensive. He said something to the effect that he didn't see me changing careers. This is something I have thought of doing many times since selling my business. However, whenever I started to apply serious thought, I would always remember his words about him not seeing me changing careers. Given what I now know about Lazaris, I will no longer use this as an excuse. I can't properly express how angry I am about this "non-interference".

Cheers, Craig

[[Note: I have edited this post to remove some personal references]]

Hello Everyone,

I was Yahooed by one of you a few days ago to alert me to your website. Although the news was utterly disappointing and maddening, I thank you for it. Yes, I too had studied Lazaris for years and did NOT follow my research instincts which asked 'what is the evidence and how good is the evidence?' Instead I asked myself, Was I too mundanely demanding about matters spiritual/metaphysical?

I pacified myself knowing that there is evidence for many of the personal growth/self-improvement methods Lazaris used. Example: the use of meditation and visualization to increase energy and to connect to positive creative powers and their underlying energies. Physicist Max Planck, the founder of quantum theory and Nobel recipient, regarded consciousness as fundamental, and matter as a derivative of consciousness. It has also been documented that our thoughts can affect other humans, and even plants.

But while Lazaris occasionally mentioned Psychologist Carl Jung or the Maslow hierarchy of needs, he did not give credit to authors when he should have, thus leaving the impression that many of the ideas he presented were his.

Naively, I was willing to overlook this because he presented his versions of personal growth so handily applicable to the non-scientific user. (Big mistake by me)

Other topics, such as the crystal material, he no doubt invented based on some facts which are as yet not understood. Example: Outside of Grindelwald, Switzerland, I came upon an exhibition of magnificent crystal formations which had been found more than 100 years ago when a quarry was created there. According to carefully documented records these crystal formations were found attached to the surface of the completely different rockformations. These crystals, now exhibited under glass, are huge, beautiful formations. Yet, when I saw them several years ago geologists were still puzzling over this phenomenon of nature. It appears that Lazaris took unexplained scientific observations and added a whole lot of fiction. Then C/S exploited this via their crystal business.

The Lazaris claims of Lemuria and Atlantis are probably a bit of mythology wildly embellished by him.(I enjoyed reading the post by Greg about this).
And his Saturday night Healings are highly suspect, to say the least, particularly in view of the apparent suffering of Peny North. (I have never seen this woman; but was puzzled by the discrepancy between Laz. adoration of her and the rude way she came across on their forum).

In 1994/5(?) when Laz. made such big ado about the astronomic constellation which allegedly occurred only once in 90,000 years or so and when 'the Vortex opened', I had serious doubts. But at that time I was consumed with nursecaring my dying husband and my invalid mother. I did not have time to research this. Surely such a rare constellation would not have escaped the atronomers of the world. Did any of you investigate this? I would be interested to know.

Again, Thanks for the exposure and for the evidence you submitted. But even though we have been had by a cosmic imposter who 'has this thing about honesty', let us
not become total cynics. I wonder if his behavior is of criminal or of progressive neurological desease origin. It amounts to a betrayal of the worst kind.

There are other, sounder ways for spiritual growth. Perhaps we can help each other find them.
Regards,

Sanella

quote:

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This ain't a fishbowl folks. If you're interested enough to keep reading, step up to the plate.

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Greetings all,

I am writing here for the first time, after lurking here since I received the "Coward's" e-mail. I wanted some time to read what was here, and I thought it wise to hang out for a bit to get the hang of the place before posting.

If you don't mind reading along, I will jump right in.

I have studied the Lazaris Material for maybe six or seven years (or since just before the end days of the Compuserve Jach & Lazaris Forum…whenever that was). Before that, my story is similar to many others' here, in that I have sampled quite a few metaphysical influences and meditation techniques, and have found some material that worked well and seemed sound, and other stuff that was just plain annoying & pointless woo-woo crap.

Like some here, I have supplemented metaphysical study with some light physics reading--enjoyable books like the Tao of Physics, The Holographic Universe, String Theory, etc. Like some here, I have studied diet and exercise for years. Like some here, I take an interest in political happenings. Like many here (I am guessing), I see myself as a spiritual being first, physical second. I am thoroughly convinced that I create and co-create realities (intentional plural)-this physical reality the most obvious one-more and more consciously as I expand my awareness & abilities.

I was introduced to Lazaris with the Sacred Journey. I had studied the Seth Material (Just about my favorite metaphysical stuff--still) for about ten years prior, and was looking around for other channeled material (only because the Seth stuff was so fascinating that I thought I might find another respectable channel and would enjoy comparing and experimenting with another perspective) when I found the Lazaris book in a New Age bookstore.

I thought Lazaris material was pretty good. While it didn't hit me with the same force as when I originally read the Seth stuff, I still found it enjoyable (With Seth, at times it seemed like another part of me was reading over the shoulder of my ego [and was receiving the words like a tonic-very disconcerting at first!]) and it gave some new angles on some of the metaphysical concepts that I had experience with to that point. I also noticed that in most cases Lazaris material appeared to affirm at least some of the Seth material, and in some instances appeared to use similar concepts with slightly different terms. (I am currently re-reading Seth Speaks, and it appears to me that, with some talent for extrapolation and flowery metaphoric language, one could make between four and six Lazaris tapes with the first five chapters) J

I didn't jump in to Lazaris techniques right away, as I was skeptical and guarded for a bit. I tend to resist trying techniques or adopting new beliefs & attitudes from metaphysical sources until I feel OK about the source itself. After listening and participating in the Compuserve Forum* for a while (something that made me feel more comfortable, since right there before me, or so I thought, there were those practicing and enjoying success with Lazaris techniques) I decided to I try what I thought of as safe, basic techniques first, to see how they worked for me.

Gradually, after using some of the Lazaris techniques & meditations, I came to trust the material more and more, as it appeared that most of what l tried was safe and worked. This, plus the fact that, in much of the early Lazaris material at least, one is constantly advised that Lazaris "suggests" (not directs); that Lazaris does not want the position of Guru; that Lazaris encourages that one respect their own cadence and self enough to choose and use techniques as they sense is right for them-well, there were a number of factors taken together that put me at ease that I was working with material that was anything offered from a benevolent, powerful entity, and a reliable source of metaphysical knowledge, technique and love. (In retrospect, I don't think really think this proves anything though, as I suppose one can say that within a reasonable range of practice, the efficacy of some techniques is more of a testament to the content&power&desire&beliefs&attitudes&thoughts&love of the practitioner, then the source or structure of techniques themselves)

After reading in your Forum for some days, I am left with many unanswered questions, and plenty to consider. I have not reached a full conclusion yet about the realness of Lazaris (to some this may seem incredible, but it is my personality that when my intuition tells me that there are still some big missing pieces-in spite of the factual data that is before me-I usually hold out before coming to a judgment).

For example, is the whole mapmaker thing really a cult?

In order to have a cult, it appears to me that you need a group of follower-members that are willing to give up their power to a leadership of some sort. Whether the leader encourages this behavior or not, in my mind, is a separate, though important issue. If you don't have people that choose to follow, you can't have a cult. When I think of cults and cult-likes, I think of three common scenarios that I have witnessed:

1. The kind of cult created by "spiritual leaders" that demand subservience and obedience of their followers-and get it-as it appears as if there is never a shortage of those willing to give up their power (along with responsibility and freedom).
2. The kind of cult in which there are leaders that overtly discourage cult behavior, but consciously create an atmosphere that will convert contacts into member-followers so that they end up with a cult following eventually, if not right away.
3. A situation in which a reliable, creditable source of information that has leadership ability or qualities uses those qualities to help others find their own power, but regardless of their efforts to empower others, find themselves, much to their dismay, (of course they could also be apathetic and still qualify) with a cult-like following.

Up to now, I would have put the Lazaris situation in the last bullet. Take the away the events of the last couple of weeks or so (with the various reports and tape discrepancies and all), and further subtract out the protective and at times aggressive responses of certain C:S forum members to certain other forum and x-forum members, and one is left on average with some fairly effective technique and an overall message of empowerment from the Lazaris entity itself.

Given the new information that has come to my attention here, I am forced to acknowledge that the reliability and sincerity of the C:S leadership, and the Lazaris entity as well, are cast in an uncertain, if not dubious light, and though I am not of the cult persuasion myself, I must admit that the evidence that I see here in this forum suggests that C:S management consciously or unconsciously seemed to create/choose conditions that would lend themselves to…well, a cult.

And what about the quality of the material itself?

Some of the material seems fairly amazing. I mean, this stuff isn't Ramtha or Kryon. Has anyone read BOTH 'Interviews' books? If these Interviews are real (most are attributed to a media personality and media organization) then they are perhaps worth some further scrutiny. I can see preparing & pulling off the equivalent of a three-hour+ one-actor play in two acts-including a hypnotism (if that is what some here would venture Jach is doing)-in itself a significant feat-but to give impromptu, consistent answers to questions in on-the-spot interviews…that is an accomplishment of another order. (Unless of course the questions were sent to C:S beforehand).

Also, I don't now if anyone else has noticed, but I sense some real difference between the early tapes and the later ones. There is a freshness and 'zap' to the early work that I feel is sometimes missing in the later tapes, and I don't think that I ever hear Lazaris say, "Excuse us" in any of the early tapes (as one hears often in the later works).

(Can I get a reality check on this? I don't have a large library of tapes-maybe twenty or so-so I would appreciate if someone else could either back up or shed some other light on this supposition of mine. Also, the later tapes sound like the brochures in syntax and flowery language-those are written by Jach…hmmmm…)

At times, I have found myself questioning some things that I have heard in tapes (On the 'Genius' tape, for example, the description of Einstein's success with his papers is contrary to biographical facts, and the care of crystals on the early crystal tape contradicts that some of that given in the later video.), but again, some of the earlier work (I think of the 'Emotional Strengths tape) is clear, and both intuitively and logically sensible.

Is it possible that at one time Lazaris was coming through loud & clear, and something went awry? (A bit of understatement in the question, eh?)

There are other questions and considerations of course, and I haven't really discussed how I feel personally about all this (While not devastated by this-my spirituality is altogether independent of one source of information-I am a bit angry-I think for example, of how I felt sharing some if this forum's content with my wife, whom I introduced to Lazaris), but I have rambled on much too long already for my first post here, and will perhaps cruise some other threads and jump in where I might add value or seek more information.

In the meanwhile, please understand that the main theme of my post is that, while I must acknowledge the testimony of intelligent people here, as well as State's Evidence-both contributing to a much different view of Jach, Lazaris & gang than I formerly had considered-I also feel like I am missing some facts and my not (perhaps ever) know the truth.

Short of the complete truth (as to whether Lazaris is real and everything else), I now know enough to be chagrinned and a bit angry, and to change forever my view of the overall C:S organization. From this point forward I choose to continue my metaphysical study WITHOUT C:S produced, sponsored or distributed material.

Thank you for reading,

Dagaz

P.S.: I just have to say that reading some of the posts in the archives was very interesting, and at times the creativity and sense of humor often made me laugh out loud.

*During certain periods, I did posted with a fair degree of regularity on both Compuserve and C:S Forums.

I have spent the last few weeks in a state of shame and anxiety because of the mess I got myself into. I only realised how fucked up my thinking has become over the years when I tried to explain about what the con sin laz stuff stood for and how I had spent so much money on tapes and seminars to the official receiver.

I am feeling for you….I have too have trusted a very important aspect of my life to the Lazaris teachings and have been burned. To be honest the way I came back to myself was to feel the shame and pain to the fullest and simply be the human I am instead of some sort of amazing, magical magician. I let it all hang out in the presence of my closest friends. Just having them witness my shame and pain fully and then see them carry right on loving me was one of the greatest healing experiences. I have come to the conclusion it is not a sin to feel shame. It is a crime against myself to deny that it is going on and attempt to program it or meditate it away.

"You create your own reality." AHHHHHHH! This is one of my biggest pet peeves. Yes Ali this is true…But I sincerely believe that this statement is a gross simplification of a truth that is larger than we can possibly imagine and that Lazaris used this simplification to control us. Yes we create our realities on many different levels but the problem is we do not always know WHY we create them the way we do! And trust me on this one…there are times that you can drive yourself crazy trying to find an answer. There are situation where the answer maybe "there is no tangible, concrete, logical answer". That is how I came up with my prayer for resolution. As I have reported here before I have had more success with this extremely simple technique than anything I ever learned from Lazaris.

When I can not see a solution…when I can not find a reason…I simply asked the Universe for a 'resolution' to the situation. Period. It has cleared up more shit, moved more mountains, generated more happiness and peace than anything that I could ever imagine. I think that is the trick to it. I do not attach myself to any particular outcome. If I have to face some shit, then so be it. If I have to open myself up then so be it. I surrender!!!

I have been reading this message board for the past few weeks, ever since I began to wonder about the nature of Peny and Michael's deaths and how they related to the spiritual guidance of Lazaris. Though I do not think we can judge the spirituality of a person by their death, still, it does give me pause that intimate association with Lazaris did not in any way seem to mitigate Peny's health for the better. I view spirituality as being a part of living life better, not as a way to escape life or justify what seems to be a failure of the skill and art of living.

It has also been harder and harder for me to relate to the abstractness of many of the materials lately. I find myself not getting to the tapes as quickly, or my attention wandering a lot. Who cares about Arthurian legends if we can't be healthier with more vitality in the practical application of our spirtuality? Who cares about the Arthurian legends if we can't relate well to our fellow humans?

In the forum, at least three times, I was talking with another member, and their comments elicited a storm of attention and conflict, as if a tornado descended on us. It scared me each time, as I wondered why I created being on the "wrong side" of a discussion...why I was so unspiritual. I counted myself lucky to escape notice even though I was originally part of the discussion.

So, after being with Lazaris and loving him for the past 14 years, I have now come to question my own mind and learning. It is good for me, for I feel that no matter what happens, I will become stronger. And I know that I am my own authority as well, even if I do continue to use some of the concepts given by Lazaris.

Some things that won't go away:

Why didn't Lazaris say anything to us after Peny and Michael died? Surely, with so many wondering, with so many anxious, it would have been a perfect time to address us. Instead, silence.

Why weren't Peny and Michael better examples of the best of what one can make of the Lazaris material?

Why, after my first intensive for a few days, did I hear all of my thoughts with the voice of Lazaris speaking them?

Some questions I have for the group:

1) Does anyone know the exact date that Concept:Synergy was created, or the most recent incorporation? Not the first date of channeling, but when the business was formed, or reformed if new papers were signed later.

2) Has anyone actually been barred from attending workshops, or buying tapes directly from Concept:Synergy? (In other words, cut off from physical access to Lazaris materials or workshops?)

3) I know that many here think Lazaris is Jach. I don't,unless it's a different aspect of him like Seth was to Jane Roberts. However, I will never forget giving a Lazaris tape to a pretty conscious friend who has been exposed to many, many teachers and whom I consider to be very knowledgeable, who walks the talk. At first, he thought that Lazaris was an enlightened being, and wanted to know more. I gave him more tapes. I did not hear from him for a few weeks, then he got word to me that he considered Lazaris to be dangerous. That he is indeed an entity from outside our Earth, but one who is trying to divert us from our spiritual path. Although neither he, nor I, are of the Christian faith, he used the word "antiChrist" as the closest concept to what he considered Lazaris to be. Needless to say this shook me up a lot. After much soul searching I continued with Lazaris, and my relationship with this man fell away. Now...I wonder. I haven't seen this discussed here or anywhere. If Lazaris is not an enlightened friend who is here to help us grow, is it possible he is the opposite? Of course, motivation would be the key. And I can't imagine any for that type of thing.