A belated welcome. Had to take a few days off while becoming a grandmother. I really appreciate your input here. And it's good to hear a perspective that isn't American for a change.

I too found a lot of value in the Seth books. Reading your posts and Jeremiah's reminds me of how easy it was to transition from Seth into "Lazaris." In fact after Jane Robert's death there was a vacumm of sorts, which made an opening which wouldn't have been there if she hadn't died.

Jane and her husband Robert never moved out of the modest Elvira, NY apartment where she held small classes. They didn't turn the channeling (which I do think was genuine) into an opportunistic business endeavor. Without fear manipulations, there was no groundwork for a cult.

I actually had spiritual experiences that were more intense and "enlightening" when I was reading the Seth books than after becoming involved with C:S. Obviously those books had a lot more real validity and integrity than "Lazaris", because they were not a con. I didn't lose important things like my trust, my integrity, and my direct relationship with my Self and All That Is. I'm not planning to get into Seth like I did before, but rembering is helping me weed out the "Lazaris's" B.S.

Another thing I'm remembering is tha Seth would occasionally talk about himself and his reality. Since "Lazaris" said he had never been physical, and his reality was to gargantuan for us to understand, actually knowing him beyond his phony beneficent love was impossible. Nice cover.

Love,
Jade

I thought it might be interesting to post some information that indicates where some of the Lazaris material may have come from.

Other posts here have speculated whether Jach had studied the Silva Mind Control Method prior to channelling Lazaris. Reading "The Silva Mind Control Method" reveals some striking similarities.

What follows are some quotes from the Seth book "The Nature of Personal Reality" published in 1974, the same year that Jach started speaking as Lazaris.

Reading this, it is worth wondering if this might be where the Lazaris concept of "Negative Ego" had its origins sans all the fear.

Though published in early 1974, the following was dictated by Jane Roberts and recorded by her husband in September of 1972

Seth writes:

"I have spoken of "you", yet this must not be confused with the "you" that you often think you are -- the ego alone, for the ego is only a portion of You; it is the expert part of your personality that deals directly with the contents of your conscious mind, and is concerned most directly with the material portions of your experience."
Session 613, p.14 , The Nature of Personal Reality

The ego can feel cut off, lonely and frightened, however, if the conscious mind lets the ego run away with it. The ego and the conscious mind are not the same thing. The ego is composed of various portions of the personality."
Session 613, p.14 , The Nature of Personal Reality

It is only when the conscious mind becomes rigid in its direction, or allows the ego to take on some of its own functions, that difficulties arise. The ego allows the conscious mind to work in certain directions and blocks its awareness in others. And so it is from your larger identity that you form the reality that you know. It is up to you to do this with joy and vigor, clearing your conscious mind so that the deeper knowledge of your greater identity can form joyous expressions in the world of flesh."
Session 613, p.14 , The Nature of Personal Reality

In his writing Seth emphasizes the individuals power and doesn't resort to fear mongering the way Lazaris does when talking about the ego.

You can see from these quotes just how similar the concept is in terms of how the ego is defined and how it becomes problematic.

Anyway, this isn't a commercial for Seth, although I think highly of the Seth material. I just think its helpful to speculate on where some of the quality concepts that Lazaris discusses may have come from, if Lazaris does not exist.

Peace,

Jeremiah

Dear All,

In case you were under the impression Lazaris coined the term "All that Is" I thought I would post some quotes from Seth using the phrase and describing the concept.

Again all of the following is published material before Jach started speaking as Lazaris. These quotes are from the late 60's to 1974

Quotation: The open concept of All That Is, however, frees you to a great extent from your own projections, and allows a more valid contact with the spirit that is behind the reality that you know.

Source: Seth Speaks, Session 587

Quotation: You are not fated to dissolve
into All That Is. The aspects of your personality as you presently understand them will be retained. All That Is is the creator of individuality, not the means of its destruction.

Source: Seth Speaks, Session 590

Quotation: The true dimensions of a divine creativity would be unendurable for any one consciousness of whatever import, and so that splendor is infinitely dimensionalized, worlds spiraling outward with each 'moment' of a cosmic breath; with the separation of worlds a necessity; and with individual and mass comprehension always growing at such a rate that All That Is multiplies itself at microseconds, building both pasts and futures and other time scales you do not recognize.

Source: Dreams, "Evolution," and Value Fulfillment, Session 933

Quotation: All That Is is inexhaustible. Infinity rests within simultaneous action, in a way that you cannot presently understand.

Source: Seth Speaks, Session 580

All That Is simultaneously and unendingly creates Itself. Only within your particular frame of reference does there seem to be a contradiction between action that is simultaneous and yet unending. This has to do mainly with the necessary distortions arising from your time concept and the idea of duration; for duration to you presupposes existence continued within a time framework - predisposing to beginnings and endings.

Source: Seth Speaks, Session 580

Quotation: As each separate identity then seeks to know and experience its other portions, then All That Is learns Who and What It Is. Action never ceases its exploration of itself. All That Is can never know itself completely, since action must always act and each action creates a new unknown. Action must travel through itself from every conceivable point, and yet the journey, being itself action, will create new paths.

Source: Seth, Dreams, and Projection of Consciousness, Chapter 18, Excerpt From Session 309

Well at least we know Jach reads...

Jeremiah

While Seth certainly wasn't the first to come up with the idea that beliefs create reality, I think Seth was the first to illustrate how the process works and to talk about belief as the cornerstone or manifestation.

Here are quotes from Seth regarding beliefs and their role in the manifestation of physical reality. There are too many to list, but you get the idea.

Again, all these quotes were published material in or before 1974.

Quotation: You create your reality according to your beliefs and expectations, therefore it behooves you to examine them carefully. If you do not like your world, then examine your own expectations. Every thought in one way or another is constructed by you in physical terms.

Source: The Seth Material, Session 329

Quotation: Basically you create your experience through your beliefs about yourself and the nature of reality. Another way to understand this is to realize that you create your experiences through your expectations. Your feeling-tones are your emotional attitudes toward yourself and life in general, and these generally govern the large areas of experience.

Source: The Nature of Personal Reality, Session 613

Quotation: Your environment is the physical picture of your thoughts, emotions and beliefs made visible. Since your thoughts, emotions and beliefs move through space and time, you therefore affect physical conditions separate from you.

Source: The Nature of Personal Reality, Session 614

Quotation: You see and feel what you expect to see and feel. The world as you know it is a picture of your expectations. The world as the race of man knows it is the materialization en masse of your individual expectations. As children come from your physical tissues, so is the world your joint creation.

Source: The Nature of Personal Reality, Session 609

Quotation: Experience is the product of the mind, the spirit, conscious thoughts and feelings, and unconscious thoughts and feelings. These together form the reality that you know. You are hardly at the mercy of a reality, therefore, that exists apart from yourself, or is thrust upon you. You are so intimately connected with the physical events comprising your life experience that often you cannot distinguish between the seemingly material occurrences and the thoughts, expectations and desires that gave them birth.

Source: The Nature of Personal Reality, Session 609

Quotation: Each person experiences a unique reality, different from any other individual's. This reality springs outward from the inner landscape of thoughts, feelings, expectations and beliefs. If you believe that the inner self works against you rather than for you, then you hamper its functioning - or rather, you force it to behave in a certain way because of your beliefs.

Source: The Nature of Personal Reality, Session 614

There are many, many more examples and when I have time I want to post the stuff Seth said about probabilities and time etc.

Cheers,

Jeremiah

Here are some quotes from Seth, again published before Jach started speaking for Lazaris in which Seth discusses his ideas on time and the relationship of the past present and future.

Sound familiar?

Quotation: There is no cause and effect in the terms in which you understand the words. Nor is there a succession of moments that follow one after the other. And without a succession of moments following one after another you can see that the idea of cause and effect becomes meaningless. An action in the present cannot be caused by an action in the past, and neither action can be the cause of future action, in a basic reality where neither past nor future exists.

Source: The Coming of Seth, Chapter 4

Quotation: In actuality there is only the spacious present, so spacious that it cannot be explored all at once in your terms. Hence, your arbitrary division of it into large rooms of past, present, and future. You are in the spacious present now. You were in the spacious present in your yesterday, and you still will not have traveled through it in your tomorrow, or in eons of tomorrows.

Source: The Coming of Seth, Chapter 4

# 12
Quotation: The idea of past, present and future is a necessary one on your plane, but this does not mean that time exists in the manner which you suppose. You are obsessed with the theory of beginning and end because in your situation camouflage constructions seem to have a beginning and an end.

Source: The Coming of Seth, Chapter 4

Quotation: If cause and effect were an absolute law, then continuity would also have to be an absolute law, and all or any evidence of clairvoyance would be absolutely impossible. It is only because there is basically no cause and effect, but merely apparent cause and effect, and no past, present and future, that clairvoyance is possible in your universe.

Source: The Coming of Seth, Session 45

Quotation: This probable field seeds many other systems beside your own. It is composed of thought images, not physically materialized in your terms, but vivid storehouses of energy. Here is the material from which all pasts, presents and futures are made. It is far from a closed system. Not only does it feed the physical universe, but in it, many aspects of your own dreams become actual. Do you dream of an apple? The apple appears in the field of probability.

Source: Seth, Dreams, and Projection of Consciousness, Chapter 16, Excerpt From Session 234

Quotation: Remember that I told you you may visit not only the past, present or future as it exists or will exist in your terms, but you may also visit realities that never existed physically. In our early sessions, I mentioned that intensity regulated the 'duration' of experience. Now, many events that were only imagined never took place physically, yet they exist. They simply are not a part of your definition of reality.

Source: Seth, Dreams, and Projection of Consciousness, Chapter 20, Excerpt From Session 265

Quotation: Think of the present as a pool of experience drawn from many sources, fed, in your terms, by tributaries from both the past and the future. There are an infinite number of such tributaries (probabilities), and through your beliefs you choose from these, adjusting their currents.

Source: The Nature of Personal Reality, Session 658

Jeremiah

quote:

---

I believe Jane Roberts had/has more readers than "Lazaris" has followers. I've met plenty of people who have read or are familiar with her, who never even heard of "Lazaris." The issue isn't about "warm and fuzzy", Peny was manipulativeexploitative, cruel, destructive, controlling and secretive.
Jane was honest, open, vulnerable. She wrote extensively about her own personal mystical experiences (in the first person), and her physical problems were also open for all to read about.

Furthermore, Seth was not promoted as an intermediary spiritpriest. If the Roberts had sought self aggrandizement, money and power they certainly were in a position to go for it. But they didn't. No mass produced tapes, no seminars, no galleries, calendars, cystals, mugs or celebraties.

---

Well said and thanks for saying it.

Jane was the real deal. She was human and she knew it and she made no apologies for being less than perfect.

She certainly didn't shrink from sharing her private struggles from her readers and had no interest in bullshit.

She had great concern about "followers" developing around the Seth material and did everything possible to dissuade those so inclined from worshiping her or elevating her to special status.

She simply didn't want the pressure AND her sense of humor was too keen for that self important crap that Peny pulled for years.

Cheers,

quote:

---

Everything I looked at was laughable untill I was handed a Lazaris tape. I was blown away. In general, the tapes seemed to work for me, but I had some warning signs.

---

Like you, I was [still am] very impressed with The Seth Material, and the scope integrity and intellectual honesty with which it was presented.

Interesting to note that all of the Seth Material ever published [this has got to be now over 25 volumes] could easily be purchased for less than the price of a Lazaris weekend.

Peny at one time expressed admiration for Seth [Lazaris always did] until a change of heart recently led her to utter her dismay around how much "work" it took to get Seth.

Work indeed. a four letter word for our spark amongst sparks.. work? In otherwords, reading.

Also interesting to note that Seth never blathers on about how much he loves us etc. And always spoke about independance of thought as well as the dangers of dogma.

I guess Seth understood love is action not protestation.

So I also held any channeled material against the standard Seth set in my mind and until I heard my first Lazaris tape, I didn't think it was possible.

There were many red flags from the beginning not the least of which being the tacky, childish marketing and packaging

The over the top romance novel language of the brochures promising not only insight and metaphysical enlightement but the guarentee of a special interdimensional orgasm with the big formless one in the not so appealing form of Jach Pursel.

I used to hear stories of women slipping hotel keys under Jach's door at seminars. I thought; wow, how pathetic. But you have to consider how these women were encouraged to see Jachzaris as a love object, so one could hardly blame them for that transference of sexual energy.

Then there was the Concept Synergy method of conducting business which leaves much to be desired.

Of course, the elevation of Peny by Lazaris was something that always bothered me and that was even before I knew her and how insufferable she was.

Just the idea of elevating a human being like that should have been enough to get me out.

I didn't get out because I thought the material was so good and interesting and the delivery and the humor fantastic.

And then came my first workshop:.

Purple everywhere, a preponderance of eva gabor wigs on the femal domes of the CS worker bees that manned the crystal table. The drones bore a remarkable resemblance to Jach both in appearance and in their oddly nuetered emasculated presence.

Most disturbing were the converstations I overheard that indicated people had been attending workshops for years and were hoping "this would be the one"

Again, I worked overtime to push this aside and blame them for not getting it. Now I realize they got it all right, the were doing just what CS wanted them to do.

I tried to ignore the desperation that people seemed to have to get "private consultations" with Lazaris. This was puzzling to me because I thought while that might be fun, it certainly isn't necessary.

How come they couldn't figure out their own beliefs?

quote:

---

As I have mentioned elsewhere, I found the forever and a day thing embarassing.

---

Yeah, that was really repulsive. The one that always felt like nails on a chalkboard for me was "magic time". Talk about infantalizing the client..LOL.. like romper room.

quote:

---

could not do the meditations. I do not know why, but I found them distracting.

---

I had the same reaction to the meditations and though I listened to every tape many, many times I rarely did any of the meditations.

I liked the early ones, but once they starte playing that elevator music, I couldn't bear it.

I used to think it was resistance to growth, now I wonder if it was resistance I didn't fully understand to indoctrination.

quote:

---

I could not buy the star connection stuff. For some reason, I have even blocked most of that from my memory.

---

Like Jade, I found the Sirius stuff somewhat on an interesting tract, but it had limited appeal to me. I went ot only a few workshops during the several years I was involved with Lazaris so I missed a bunch of the more wacko stuff he was spouting.

When I read the gang writing about "eagle people" and "dolphin people" I nearly hurled.

quote:

---

I did not buy the giant sparkler explanation, but I did understand it in a different way.

---

Must a missed the giant sparkler story or I am misunderstanding what you are referring to.

quote:

---

I had two friends with new age book stores, and they told me that C/S was the worst company they had to deal with.

---

Yeah, I heard that from bookstores too. Once I asked a store owner why she didn't carry the Lazaris material and she told me that if the employees of CS were any indication of the quality of the material she wanted no part of it and couldn't feel good about selling it.

quote:

---

did not like the early Peny tapes. I did not find her as bright nor as spiritual as she had been portrayed. I had no desire to talk to her. Then, in the very early ninties, she came out with another tape. What I heard was that she knew where she was going when she died, to be with Lazaris, and indicated others should follow.

---

Wow, must have blanked that out. I do remember almost throwing in the towel the first twenty minutes after hearing her strident tone and bombastic self aggrandizement.

One almost turning point for me was when she proclaimed that she had almost saved the world in Atlantis or some such ridiculous shit as that.

It seems to hear her tell it, that she was assasinated because the dark forces [darker than Peny? thats food for thought, ]

Through all this Lazaris is just sitting there mumbling, "yes dear one, certainly so..".. Damn..where was my mind??? I should have bailed then.

quote:

---

When I die I will begin a new adventure, and I really do not care to have Peny there.

---

I hear ya bro.

Good to read your posts,

Jeremiah

Here's a quote from Seth that puts a completely different slant on spiritual awareness,

quote:

---

It is futile to question:"What is the difference between my psyche and my soul, my entity and my greater being? for all of these are terms used in an effort to express the greater portions of your own experience that you sense within yourself. Your use of language may make you impatient for definitions, however. Hopefully this book will allow you some intimate awareness, some definite experience, that will aquaint you with the nature of your own psyche, and then you will see that its reality escapes all definitions, defies all categorizing, shoves aside with exuberant creativity all attempts to wrap it in a neat package.

---

Also of interest, Seth describes himself as an aspect of Jane's psyche that broke into her consciousness because of her intense inner questioning of the nature of reality and the meaning of life. Quite different than because she was just so damn evolved and special.

For the list of questions, Why in the world did Pee live in a 27,000 square foot monster mansion in extremely $$pre$tige$$ conscious Palm Beach? Some spiritual quest.

Jade

quote:

---

"Lazaris' teaches an inner spiritual heirarchy as well, full of categorizing and compartmentalizing. Starting with you, your "higher self", spirit, soul, GGATI. Add archtypes, old folks, magical child, magician, etc.
I'm rereading Jane Roberts', The Nature of the Psyche.

Here's a quote from Seth that puts a completely different slant on spiritual awareness

---

On one of the Peny & Lazaris tapes -- Lazaris states VERY explicidly that he specifically differs with Seth as to the structure of non-physical spiritual heirarchy.

My opinion? Yes -- in order to control the very life out of vulnerable people -- make them thereby dependent -- and drain'um dry financially to pay off Peny North for the opportunity.

IMO -- the most important "material" difference here? Jane Roberts had no burning ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS imagined "need" for 27,000 sq. ft. in Palm Beach.

And I do admire the hell out of those enjoying big property in Palm Beach -- who purchased it with *well* gotten gain. Absolutely.

And competitive material false esteem is hardly enjoyment.

In fact: it's deadly.

Steve
sb6@altavista.com

Just a footnote. In private Peny was extremely contemptuous of Seth, and anybody else who channeled. She claimed that Jach and Lazaris (and of course she) was/is quite superior to any of them.

SuMari

quote:

---

I understand that feeling only I for one did not feel comfortable 'blending' with it.

---

From the Seth book, The Nature of the Psyche,

quote:

---

When a man's consciousness, for example, blended with that of a tree, those data became 'visual' for others to perceive. When a man's consciousness merged with an animal's, that blending became visual data also.

---

IMO, the Seth books are the probable source for the Orb's version of "blending", but "Lazaris" perverted it into a potent love bombing technique -- more like a psychic bleeding.

How wonderful that your friend is setting himself free.

Jade

Good to hear fom you Steve.

Jade