I would be very interested to hear what others think about this...

I guess I need to meditate on the issue of how this fits in with an ability to speak to angels that may be all around us, in regards to the no gurus, no teachers,... This could be a wonderful self empowerment!!! The part to mull over is what if this is a fradulent invention of the new age movement as a whole.
Are there some general ideas out there being spoken about, that many new age false gurus all pick up on in order to strengthen their "spiel" and the movement as a whole? I think so......
What do y-all think??

I think there can be many reasons why so many are saying the same things. In some cases it's because these things are true. In other cases they're just giving (selling) people what they want. I imagine that many people lift from the Lazaris material as well as vice-versa. It's easier than actually finding the Truth for oneself.

You wrote:

quote:

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..I never resonated with the idea of angels just cuz of all the cloyingly cute cherubic cupidness of it all, and mostly also the christianism of it all,.. that didn't sit well with me.

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Perhaps it depends on how one defines "angel". If an angel is a non-physical being that interacts with us in a positive way, then I think they're real. Given that they're non-physical, they certainly don't have wings or fat, cherubic bellies. Maybe they present themselves to people in whatever way the person would be most comfortable. Or the person projects the physical charactistics. Either way, the angel doesn't really have those characteristics.

I think many tend to see angels - or unseen friends, ala Grand Orb - as slaves, or at least as parents - that they're here to serve us. "Lazaris" even says that our unseen friends grow spiritually by helping us - to basically be at our beck and call. More Grand Orb bullshit! I can't believe I didn't reject that crap years ago...

Interesting that this woman sees herself as working "for" the angels. But it's the flip side of the same coin - still a hirearchical relationship. It also gives her an out - she can't be doing anything wrong, since it's all in the service of "angels".

This is the issue people have with metaphysics in general isn't it?? It is an issue I have NOW.!! Filled to the brim with fakes... self professed authorities..

Persons with absolutely NO credentials are all of a sudden an expert cuz what?... cuz they wrote a book?? or hosted a seminar on new ways to clean your aura??
Wanna be an authority..??? write a book... it's instantaneous..

Here's my problem with it all, I believe Jach**ss, and Peny specifically chose that arena because they could not be held accountable, and no one looks at a "spiritual resume". Then L. would consistently point out that the new-age movment is so filled with huksters etc. and he'd regularly put down woo-woo new age stuff like he'd put down Jesus etc.

There was a very twisted cult leader who started out as a yoga instructor then when in LA, he'd run these full page LA times ads, he looked like a rock star type, anyway the most ridiculous thing......He posted in his ads, all his accomplishments,...and these went back SEVERAL lifetimes,,,,I kid you not,,,it would only happen in LA.
Turned into a huge scandal...years later....
LOL I can't believe I pulled that outta my memory banks...sheesh...

This reminds me of the realization Katie and I made years ago regarding the inner workings of the Natural Products industry: all one need do is WRITE A BOOK, however modest and or--INCORRECT the material in it was...and automatically one was an Authoritah on said subject. Peepull would come outta the woodwork to hand over ALL their power, and significant amounts of monneah($$$); because now you indeed deserved to be on a pedestal.

I'd realized that all one need do to sell a diet product, was to use the words "STARS SECRETS", or just SECRETS, or "ANCIENT ORIENTAL SECRETS" etc... and these people would at least buy oNE, and that's all you'd need.

Gee guys, maybe that's what it is with this website, seems like so much authoritah is still given to the written word, and now it's escalated using the internet...so cuz youz guyz is sooo cool as to have this website up, you obviously need FOLLOWERS
funny how your picture on the homepage is the fool about to walk off that cliff, and still peepull wanna be the lemmings( hamsters ? to STEVE?) to go right in after come on in ----the water's fine----

I was discussing with a friend the idea about spiritual guides, I never felt I have had any, or at least I couldn't conjur up the feeling for/about any of them..

Then along comes the Jach/L material telling me I needed to get in touch with them, though various OTHER tapes that would mentione them over and over again (see...SELL MORE TAPES)

Well, who's the authority there,,,even now,, there are many in the metaphysical realms that all ((AGREE)) there are these guides...

So, am I missing the boat, could I be sailing up the stream of my life so much more gracefully IF I'd let them talk to me??

I dunno, but I'm not about to just believe in 'em cuz others say they talk to THEIRS...

I'm gonna try to get more info from inside on my own bad-self, and see what/who is there....my own bad-guides... no doubt dressed all in purrrpulll thank you very much....

I was just listening to a very interesting author, Karen Armstrong.
She is a world religion expert, and was discussing Islam on which she's written several books...
Anyway, the interviewer asked her if she thought that we are in a time of many religions turning more and more fundamentalist, and she said definitely.

It helped me make a connection to our own experiences with CULTS, just like the more bona-fide religions of the world, perhaps we are experiencing a type of increase in intensity -we do have to take note of our current interactions with the jachzarrus followers definitely...

She went on to say that she is seeing an increase in NIHILISM, and said that several of the hijackers had consumed alcohol, and visited nightclubs, etc..and that was sooo far from what ANY moslem would do that she categorized it as (word I'd never heard);
antinomanism-which is a person who feels so blessed or above holy that they no longer need to abid by any laws at all not even the laws of their own religion.....
SOUNDS FAMILIAR.!!! I got goose bumps....

To summarize, it would seem that perhaps what is going on in the new age world is just to be expected because it is going on in many different strata of religious society....

I want to discuss the topics of integrity and evil within the context of new-age teachings and following.

The first point surrounds new-age teachers and the apparent contradiction with their off-stage behavior. I think many age teachers start out innocently enough with a burning desire to help people. At some point, I think their teaching becomes bigger and grander than they actually are. At this point, they feel an implied pressure to appear to walk to the talk. They might have to act a lot nicer and do a lot of things they really are not currently designed to do.

I think this builds an enormous pressure that must be relieved somehow. The method of release is unique with each teacher, but may include things like raging at staff, inappropriate sexual adventures, and financial misdealings.

I believe this pressure build-up is caused by a lack of integrity. It stems from the refusal to act naturally and/or the refusal to admit to your failings. At this point, the teacher starts to live a lie.

The refusal to admit to one's failings is not universal. I don't know the ins and outs of Wayne Dyer and his philosophy. However, let me use him as an example. He seems to be quite willing to use his own failings (including current ones) as examples in his books and lectures. In his latest book, he talks in his forward about a episode that landed him in the hospital with heart problems after he had completed the book. He then goes on to talk about how this made him question his beliefs and teachings, etc. I find such revelations refreshingly honest. Contrast this with the cover-up and lies that CS and Lazaris used with Peny's illness.

Having said all that about Dyer, such admirable behavior does not bestow his teachings any implied legitimacy. As with any teachings, they have to stand on their own.

The flip side is that if someone shows behavior that directly contradicts their teaching, I think such teachings should cause a greater than normal scrutiny to be applied to them. If the behavior does not apply to the arena of the teachings, I think it should be ignored. For example, if Martin Luther King was a womanizer, I think that is irrelevant to the agenda most people associate him with. For those who call him the Christian of the century, however, such behavior is now relevant to *their* agenda.

I would now like to segue into the related point of suppressed evil. I have not thought this out fully, but it certainly seems related to the issue of "shadow". My feelings are that each and every one of us has a certain amount of inherit evil in us at any time. As people progress along the new-age path, religious path, spiritual path, or any feel-good type of path, I see that a large potential danger develops. We become convinced of the need to act and behave in a way the we interpret as good. When this happens, we all too often start to do massive sweeping under the rug of the evil sides of our selves. We consciously suppress and repress its expression and typically fill in the void with fake expressions of goodness.

I feel as we progress along a path, this issue becomes more and more significant. We soon become very vested in the belief that we are this most wonderful, growing, spiritual being. Then, one day all of a sudden, ***BOOM***. Or, perhaps the person will manifest a vast slew of mini booms.

What is the antidote? I think that we must balance any introduction of "goodness" into our being with a similar amount of attention to our "evilness". How to handle this evilness is up to each individual. I try to do it with a combination of shadow work (not the Lazaris strain) and the constant reminder that it is OK to have evil parts of myself, as long as I can recognize, admit, and handle them appropriately. I feel this is an ongoing work and can never be completed.

It is all to easy to write off any concerns about a feel-good or do-good path by saying things like "what's the harm?". I feel that any path that does not vigorously address our evil (not someone else's) is incomplete and presents risks.

The above are some nascent thoughts I've had of late. I welcome other opinions.

Cheers, Craig

This is an interesting topic, thanks for posting your thoughts.

My thoughts on spiritual leadership have been posted here many times. I don't think anyone dons that robe appropriately other than POSSIBLY someone who has actually looked up on the face of God or something, and maybe even that person should keep it to themselves.

I used to like Shirley Maclaine because she never seemed to want to set herself up as any kind of spiritual leader, but instead just shared her experiences and thoughts for any interest they might hold for another. Now it looks as though she's assuming the guru role herself, conducting guided meditations, etc. Hey, the chick is getting old and needs a career change I guess.

I don't think you could point yourself to any religion, belief system, or teaching which isn't responsible for some kind of abuse of power. I know you and I spoke of Self Realization Fellowship, and although I haven't found any specific abuses, maybe it's not the best thing to insist upon single minded devotion to the guru. My vote is still out on that one.

I do like Yoganada, because what he shares are experiences and inspirations. He certainly never made any claims about himself being an avatar or anything, even though many of his followers make that claim. If anyone ever lived who left proof that they might have been, he did through the testimony of the funeral director who stated that the body did not show any signs of decay after several weeks.

Anyway, where I think the "evil" comes in is in the form of ego. People who set themselves above and apart from others through the set up of teaching spirituality are operating from a fundamental flaw IMO, one that cannot fail to end up causing betrayals, disappointments, confusion, and even abuse of power. It's just too damned tempting to let that power get out of control. These teachers are, after all, only human, and subject to the same foibles as the rest of us.

I think it's a beautiful thing to share our thoughts and experiences about spiritual matters. I think it's deadly poison to make any authoritarian statements on these issues.

Everyone, I would assume, has moments of intense clarity and feelings of connectedness. All too often those feelings cause certain individuals to feel really special, and imbued with some divine energy that they believe is calling them to "share" their wisdom. It's all to common a phenomena.

Lynn and I had a conversation here awhile ago in which we discussed our mutual discomfort with being "admired", or sought after for spiritual help and guidance. I don't know about Lynn, but I've known how to mesmerize a crowd since I was a teenager. It's just something that came flowing out of me, probably as over compensation for my pathological shyness as a kid. Let me tell ya buddy, there's power in them hills, not to mention temptation.

I just personally think that people who succumb to that temptation are dishonest from the get-go. It can and is justified that those who have "figured things out" should help those along who haven't. Without a doubt there are more people seeking answers than there are those responding, at least from podiums and bookshelves. But the big lie is in the claim that some are more imbued with wisdom than others. Certainly some may have given more thought to these issues of spirituality, but that doesn't make them better or wiser than anyone else, it just means that's what they've been thinking about more, or they have a better vocabulary, or maybe they just need a job, and know a good one when they see it.

IMO the most significant spiritual "truth" is that we are all spiritual, and equally able to discourse with the Divine. Just as we all have navels, so we all have a direct connection to God. Anyone who gets in the way of that is evil in my opinion. That so many who do that eventually have thier evilness exposed is just one more indication of the love and power of the universe. That so many still continue to follow, even when the evil is revealed is just one more indication of the helplessness these people foster.

I don't think we are all born with a certain amount of evil in us. I believe that evil exists "outside" of us, and that love exists "inside" of us. I believe that Love fuels the universe and all life. Evil destroys it.

I think our human dilemma really stems from our collective belief that the Divine is something beyond our reach, a separate being who judges and monitors us. I think the Divine just IS, just as we ARE. We are spiritual and connected by right of BEING.

When we are BEING evil, we are disconnected in that moment. Maybe it's possible to BE so evil, that we become completely disconnected, I don't know. I believe that we are disconnected in the moments when we are not "living in the Love", but that has nothing to do with flowery phrases or pretty imageries. Love is a much misconstrued condition IMO. Love encompasses wisdom, character, committment, honesty, bliss. None of that is present in the charade of a self-styled "teacher" who sets themselves above and apart from anyone else, although without a doubt, there are some who are very good at providing a synthetic version of all of the above. The safest path, IMO, is to learn and experience what those qualities REALLY are, rather than accept the first plastic version that comes along just because it "feels" so good. I think most of us have discovered that there's nothing like the real thing. Too bad for those who never bother to allow themselves the experience, and way too bad for those who serve slop and call it gourmet food.

Anyway, I could blather on for days on this topic. I'll leave it here.

Lava and Peas,

Quite an interesting conversation. Does a guru need to have integrity?

I think a guru does need to have integrity. A philosopher doesn't need to. But when someone puts themself in a position of authority - people following them - then they should be setting an example. Whether or not it is ever appropriate to follow a guru is another issue. But I'm quite sure it isn't appropriate to follow a hollow guru.

Then there are those who claim to be philosophers, or friends, but who set themselves up as gurus. Lazaris, for example. "They" claim to be just a friend. But who pays money to hear their friend speak? Who colors every descision with the advice of a friend? Oh, we may seek our friends' advice and we may honor their advice, but we don't defer to it. We accept or reject it based on our own discretion.

Our friends, as wise as they may be, don't claim to have special access to wisdom or knowledge. They may have paid more attention to certain topics than we have. They may have thought more about them. But they don't claim to be from a higher realm.

So what about walking the talk? If someone offers dietary advice and they are overweight (by their own standards), then we can assume that they either aren't following their own advice or the advice doesn't work. If the advice is sound, why aren't they following it? Very often they tell us that their way is easy. If it's easy and it works, why aren't they doing it? No, it doesn't prove the advice is bogus, but it certainly makes it questionable.

Are there some people who are natually more spiritual than others? Well there's the age-old question about natural-born musicians, athletes, etc. I tend to think that anyone can be great at just about anything they choose. But even if I'm wrong and that some are naturally great and some can never be great no mater how much they try, that doesn't make sense for spirituality. Spirituality is a must - musicianship and artistry are not. While some may be better suited for various vocations, we all have a need for spirituality. It wouldn't make sense for some to not have a natural ability to thrive spiritually.

Proper gurus attain their status not because they are born spiritual or gifted in some way which others are not. They arrive at their position through diligence and dedication. Implicit in that is that their students can, and often do, surpass the teacher. That's one reason why the guru's integrity counts: they show by example what can be accomplished - by anyone.

Pete made a good point on another thread that Martin Luther King is not admired by most people for his fidelity to his wife. He is admired for his ability to affect social change peacefully. To most people he is not a spiritual leader - he is a social, political leader, and rightly so. Those who want to hold him to a spiritual standard will be disappointed.

We don't admire Beethoven for his social skills - we admire him for his artistry. I would take music instruction from someone like Beethoven, but I wouldn't take moral, psychological or spiritual advice from them (well, maybe in isolated situations, but not generally).

If Jach had set himself up as a philosopher - someone who has thought about and/or researched many topics - I wouldn't have a problem with him. Wayne Dyer and other pop-psychologists are honest enough to admit that they are humans who have studied certain issues more than most people. This does make their discourse somewhat valuable, but it doesn't make it sacred, and they don't claim that it does. Rajneesh, Lazaris, et al do claim that their output is sacrosanct. Anyone making that claim has a heavy burden of impeccability.

If I read you right, you're interested in understanding the process by which someone can gain followers, and then potentially move on to create a sense of dependency which will allow for the control and manipulation of the group.

My experience has been that anyone who speaks from a place of authority and confidence will instantly draw a crowd. Throw in a few chuckles or laughs, add a sprinkle of specialness among the group, give out a few compliments and hugs, tell them you love them, or how much the spirit, or God, or the universe loves them and I think you've got your cult.

It seems that many people are afraid of their own opinions, or at least afraid to voice them, so when they hear someone speaking authoritatively along the lines of their own existing beliefs, there seems to be a tendency to latch on. It's like the speaker is giving credibility to the persons thoughts just by right of speaking them publicly, maybe with more charm, or more astuteness than the person would or could themselves. Some people really like to latch on rather than stand on their own I think. So, if anyone allows for that to happen, it will happen.

Also, people who crave love will suck up any promise of it like a dry sponge. I have yet to meet a person who was not moved by an assertion of love, the big question is how readily we are willing to accept the truth of those three little words. Love is a lot more than just saying "I love you", but that's quite good enough for a lot of people. Love has more power to open more wallets than a two for one sale at K-Mart.

This doesn't just apply to cults or groups, it applies to personal relationships too. If we are looking for something to "complete" us, by right of them possessing a quality we don't, I think the set-up begins there.

I don't think there's inherently anything wrong with admiring someone, or benefiting from their strengths, I'm sure we all do that with each other. I think where things get sticky is when we are seeking others to be for us something that we really must or can be by ourselves. Spirituality comes to mind. No one else can be spiritual on our behalf.

If I play to that desire some people have to have someone else think for them, while at the same time encouraging them to believe that they are getting wiser and stronger, that they are special and loved, I have them hooked.

It's all in the integrity IMO Pete

Now, Pete, if you are a really smart fellow, and I know you are, you will see that I am a real authority on cults, and it would behoove you to study up on what I have to say. Just relax, relax, allow the wisdom to flow through you, filling your mind with wisdom, your body with healing energy and strength. Let your heart open and feel the love that pours from me to you. Feel the clarity Pete, the knowingness. I am giving you what you need, what you want. I do so love you Pete, so very much you know. You are a very unique and special spark of consciousness and I take such joy and pleasure in being with you.

How's that?

I think that not only do some teachers or leaders outgrow the beliefs or philosophy they support and lose integrity! I think organizations do, too, even if the leaders are still strong and vibrant. I have seen or been in some like that.

The worst is when the leadership's integrity starts to fall apart and takes the organization down with it -- which I think is the case with C:S. I have belonged to at least two organizations to which this happened. I have heard of others. A lot of people got hurt and spiritually burned in the process. The leaders thought that the success of the organization was because of them alone. They adopted a god-like, you-owe-me attitude. In other words they were the organization (in THEIR view). Members and volunteers were almost like a "necessary evil". Then came the abuse of power. And we know that story . . .

Both of the organizations I was in survived -- but in a much altered and reduced state, nothing like what they were or COULD have been. Others I heard about folded. I hope C:S is the latter.

As far as evil being in us -- I think we all have a light side and a dark side (good side and evil side). Ever see the original "Star Trek" where Kirk gets split into those two facets as separate beings? Neither one had the power to be a good leader or even function in daily living. It was his good side that built his relationship with people and his dark side that gave him his drive to be a leader. The good side alone was kind and compassionate but too wishy-washy to be a leader. The dark side had the power but not the rapport or insight to deal with people and problems. To be captain and even to live normally as a person, he needed BOTH facets. So does everyone. I think the problems come when you live your life too much to one of those extremes -- too good or too evil. As with life in general -- it's about balance.