Yes, I think you did hear me correctly. I don't reject the majority of the information in the Lazaris material. I hope that my passion in expressing my feelings about discerning whether or not Jach is faking did not come across as proselytizing[g].

I had mentioned that one reason it matters to me whether he's faking is because that makes the difference in whether or not I will continue to work with the material. Actually, I probably would not work with it even if I were to be convinced that Lazaris is real (which is very unlikely). Why subject myself to all that baggage? If they were real, I would still be very uncomfortable with them allowing themselves to used by the Orlando Gang to bully people. And it's not like Lazaris is the only source of good information (or love).

During my exploration of this topic, I wondered why Lazaris would allow the abuse that occurs in the Forum. Someone suggested that they never intervene - as they have said, they will not force themselves on us. OK, makes sense. Except that "they" did see fit to intervene in a Forum controversy and mention at a seminar that covenance was not meant to be about people forming groups, but about a covenant with our Higher Selves and Unseen Friends. (Covenance was mentioned during the Millenium Celebration) During Forum Storm, one of our group said that we liked the idea of covenance and thought that we could apply the concept to our spiritual family. This is what "Lazaris" was refering to. Why did they intervene in this case, but wouldn't intervene when Peny and the Gang abuse people as misquote the Lazaris material on a regular basis?

As for the "covenance" issue - we knew quite well what Lazaris meant - we were applying the concept to our group, not negating the covenance we could have with our Unseen Friends. The word "covenance" isn't in my dictionary, but it is a logical extention of the word "covenant"; a promise, agreement, compact. Apparently, Jach thinks he owns a copy right on the word. It's nobody's business what terminology we use amoungst ourselves.

So out alleged misinterpretation of the word "convenance" warrants direct input from Lazaris, but Peny's abuse doesn't?!

So, whether their "real" or not, I don't trust them. Anyone who would foist that out-of-control megalomaniac Peny on us doesn't get access to my Soul.

I am reminded that Lazaris used to address this concept of "non-interference" often and pointed out how the concept is often misapplied.

He offered the example of a person drowning and a a person witnessing it choosing [so as not to interfere spiritually] to let them drown.

Lazaris pointed out that if you create someone in front of you drowning that is your creation.

There are no observers only participants.

He suggested the appropriate response might be to ask "why did I create someone drowning in front of me" and further suggested the answer might be so that you might respond and give yourself the gift of helping someone.

I am paraphrasing that but I think it is on the tape "Freedom its Mystery and its Power"

Lazaris pointed out the difference between trying to rescue someone in the manipulative sense and offering someone genuine help when they need it.

So my question is why is Lazaris watching Jach and Peny drown in their greed, hostility and arrogance?

Why did he create that happening?

And if they don't want to change why has does Lazaris co-dependantly enable them by refusing to change his relationship with them?

Lazaris is an active participant in this not an observer.

Peace,

quote:

---

Or -- we can serve to remind them, and those who are not aware -- of what kind, wonderful, real people Peny and Jach were before Tradevest -- and the shark-skinned mother f*ckers who sucked Peny into Tradevest with promises of salving her pain of financial dissonence with the friends she loved.

---

So, where the hell was "Lazaris" when all of this happened? Standing by practicing "non-interference?"

When consulted about Tradevest, what were his words? "Go into the Crystal Cave and we'll do some visualizing together!" And it didn't work——instead they were on a slow road to, what looks like to me, their personal hell for everyone to see?

Sorry. Speak up for the goodness and fun that these two once were, and I still don't see how looking at the results can endorse the product. Or do you believe that "Lazaris" would never let anyone else go to hell, just those two?

Actually, I don't have a problem with breaking psychic contracts. I do think we have them and they are harmful. Breaking a psychic contract does not necessarily mean breaking ties with one's family.

I do see evidence of cult thinking on the part of the person who, after declaring us paranoid, questions his or her own sanity because Lazaris' advice was bogus. There are a few posts in that thread where people insist on taking on Lazaris' responsibility and rationalizing the Orb's BS.

They've pulled out the old "non-interference" excuse. Doesn't work. C:S claims that Lazaris suggested bringing Michaell on board. Shortly thereafter, Jach and Peny were divorced (so we're told) and Michaell and Peny are married. Also, if Lazaris believes in non-interference, he would not have built up Peny as a grand, shining magician - he would have left it to us to discern.