Your story about Magic time at the Millennium Intensive reminded of an uncomfortable feeling I had at that time. This was the first Intensive that I attended, but my understanding was that people are not singled out to get the microphone. Something about Lazaris not forcing themselves on anyone(?)

Also "Lazaris" has refered to the lame practice of putting people on the spot and having them bare their souls to gain a momentary feeling of relief that doesn't last. Yet, at the Millennium Intensive, "Lazaris" did just that - they had the microphone passed around and arbitrarily stopped on unsuspecting people who had not volunteered to expose themselves. Then "Lazaris" proceded to push the person in the hot seat to go deeper and expose more of their vulnerability before the crowd.

You said: "What you're saying here is really significant. Spiritual core, childhood trauma, hidden shame -- THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY NO BOUNDARIES. This transgression occurs in all manners:
with groups at seminars, with forum members, with people who get the microphone at seminars, during phone consultations, Saurday night "healing" meditations, and during the crystal ceremony. As I said in an email, I recently made a very appropo typo, I wrote "bleedings" instead of blendings. Psychic vampirism."

LOL, yes, I noticed when you said "bleedings" and assumed it was deliberate! It seems such an appropriate word. We were being bled IMO. Yes psychic vampirism is a good term. Also interesting that you bring up the microphone interactions. I wrote about that on another thread, how the stories "Lazaris" is telling people seem to be getting more bizarre and sadistic. Imagine burdening someone with "memories" of a traumatic lifetime that never even happened.

This is where Jach is stepping dangerously close to the line of actually breaking the law. Licensed psychologists have been prosecuted for encouraging "delayed memory syndrome" if that is the correct term. This is where psychologists have been found to have "helped" someone remember childhood abuses which cause them to become alienated from their families, sometimes these cases have landed in court, and it was later discovered that there was no truth to these memories at all. People's lives can be ruined by this kind of irresponsible "therapy" that Jach is practicing without a license to do so. Scary stuff.

You said: "For most people, myself included, it's hard to fathom that anything and everything is fair game for con artists. I've had to learn to stetch my imagination in terms of what lengths some people will go to when it comes to exploiting others financially, emotionally, intellectually and spiritually. They are really pathetic parasites masquerading as indiviuals who are giving us something of value. All the while , they are ripping it off of us."

Yes, we no doubt have all had to stretch our imaginations to imagine how and to what extent we have been exploited on so many levels. Yes, they are pathetic parasites, I fully agree. It feels good to get angry about that, doesn't it?

As ugly as the whole mess becomes as the truth unfolds and each of us come to our own personal realizations, it also feels very liberating to me to be able to talk about it here. I feel like some invisible restraints have been removed, I'm unshackled, so to speak.

Thanks again for an insightful post.

Lots of love,

Katie

Let me quickly "introduce" myself. I have been studying with Lazaris for about 10 years, was a member of the forum for a too long time, and have attended a few workshops over the years. The most recent one I attended was in October, and is what brings me to write here now. I have been reading along as a lurker, sometimes distressed because there is more truth written here than I've ever seen in the forum. Here there is no Lazaris to fall back on for "questionable" support or validation. Or would "unquestionable" be more appropriate to say?

After reading here about Forum Storm, which I witnessed, and let me tell you here, I met those people involved at the millenium party and liked them all. I sensed a sincerety in each one and the energy of love between them was delightful and real. I remember a person wrote in the forum that they acted like a bunch of adolescent wannabes and I beg to greatly differ with that person and want you to know that that person did receive some very appropriate feedback to that extremely ugly post. I met a bunch of energentic, lively people who were happy to be where they were, which was with each other and with Lazaris. The love they had for Lazaris was very evident. Actually, I met them in the hotel restaurant, but saw them regularly throughout the workshop.

What happened at the October event is what brings me to write. One young woman who was aglow at the millenium party and part of that group was chosen to have magic time with Lazaris. I was thrilled to see her again and was prepared to witness an exciting magic time with her as I was part of the group she was in. At first it was ok but then Lazaris started to say something about her relationship with her mother and recommended that she distance herself from her as her thinking was all wrong. I found it odd because her mother was also at the millenium party and part of that group, so it's obvious that Lazaris knows her mother as well, as do probably many in the audiance. It made me uncomfortable to see and hear the way and what Lazaris said, and I recall clearly that the young woman was upset at what Lazaris had to say. It's not too uncommon that a person would be upset to hear what Lazaris had to say at a magic time, as I've seen it before, but what made me most uncomfortable was the fact that I had witnessed the abuse in the forum of these people and it seemed to me that "Lazaris" took the opportunity of magic time to denounce this young woman and her mother in front of 3 or 400 people, many of whom were aware of what happened in the forum months earlier.

Was this done by "Lazaris" "Jach" to make a point?! It was an "odd" experience that has been bothering me ever since. In my honest opinion, Lazaris was "strangely" very hard on this young woman. Odd.

As for the rest, I'm glad to have found this site and to see that Katie and Ted are doing better than I would after their experience in the forum and fully support them in what they are doing here. I hope that young woman and her mother are doing as well. I know the mother left the forum and I'm not sure about the daughter. I left soon after and have no intention of attending another workshop until my heart/mind is clear on what happened at the one in October. It had profound effect on me and I've been uneasy about Lazaris ever since. After reading here, I know that I am not alone and feel supported in what I sensed, even though I didn't want it to be true. It's just that when you put it altogether it doesn't add up to any real love or magic but "manipulation."

Thank you for your time in reading and any comments and opinions will be welcome. I commend you all for your courage and honesty in all I've read here, for I know from my own experience how hard this is.

With love,

Wiser Crone

quote:

---

And it's funny, but L never said anything to my sister before about this distancing. All of a sudden--out of the blue--"they" bring it up? It wasn't relevant to the question that was asked either, by the way, so what possible purpose could there be in saying it?

---

Right, this is the question that has to be asked. Why now? If your sisters relationship with your mother, or your mothers thinking is a big stumbling block for her, why didn't that come up in any of the previous Magic Times or private readings?

L fans are constantly asking us to look beyond the obvious and find the "balance" or "empowerment" in all of these blatent control and manipulation tactics. My response is go find the balance and empowerment in a dose of cyanide.

Even the Orb says that when someone is assaulted, you don't come rushing by to remind them to figure out "why they created this".

I know why Jach created the opportunity to take a swipe at your mother. Jach is a mean, punishing, and vindictive bit of trash, that's why. Marilyn didn't cave into the endless manipulations, and it pissed him off. He was pissed off at me and Ted too, and this is how he vented his anger. He used his alter-ego orb self to exact revenge, AT YOUR SISTER'S EXPENSE. He USED her faith and belief to get in his little swipes, and in doing so sent a very clear message to all in attendance who had witnessed Forum Storm.
Marilyn is a fuck up, that's why it happened.
Thank you Jachzaris for your beautiful love.

We now know from the many stories that have been told that Jach routinely uses his private entity to take his swipes both in private readings and during seminars.

There is evidence that the private readings themselves are used as a way to identify people's vulnerabilities, or to mine a few "secret weapons" to be used AGAINST the faithful and vulnerable.

We know about the gossip fests, Peny's obsession with gathering new and juicy bits of information on people, her need to find targets for her twisted contempt for all people not herself. We also know that Jach had an equally twisted mission to feed that beast, and evidently he has developed a bit of a taste for shredded souls himself assuming he didn't always have it.

Jach through his charade of Lazaris has given himself the opportunity to play God with people, and we have documented that he does just that.

People can argue whether or not L is a separate entity from Jach, but it is stories like this one that make me confident that whatever is happening up there on that stage, Jach's agendas are being addressed, private information and vulnerabilities are being exploited. Who cares if it's some entity doing that or the cheezy insurance saleswimp himself?

Imagine that you just were the target of one of the Con:Sin all night "love healings" to cure you of your latest "negative-ego" attack, and then while sitting in a seminar you hear your story being told to the audience by the grinning glow-egg, only what you know that no one else does is that the story is a distorted version of events, one geared only to take yet another hard swipe at your already bashed in head?

Lazaris always gets to have the final word, don't "they"?

When I had my run-in with Jach he tried every nasty little maneuver he could think of to punish me. He was more than willing to use Lazaris as a weapon by threatening to cut me off, and by trying to limit my access to the wisdom of his personal Entity.

Now, why would he do that? If it were true that I was in the midst of a huge negative-ego crash, that my spirituality was at risk,
"thrown out the window" as Peny stated, then why on earth would he not want to give me MORE access, not less?

If you think someone is drowning, don't you cast them a line, or call a lifeguard or something?

I know that by saying this I am providing the mind-numbed with their excuses for my disgust and disbelief in this multi-dimensional creature, it's all sour grapes they will say.

Well, ok, let's ignore everything else I've ever said about my process of disbelief and say, yeah, it's sour grapes. I spent twelve years as a faithful believer in someone who told me that they will love me forever and a day, and where were they when the chips were down?

Where were they for Marilyn, Jade,or any of the other recipients of the Gangs "love healings"?

How many people have been the subject or witness to these flayings, and felt frightened and confused by them, felt their faith being shattered, their minds being twisted, and their souls being mutilated, yet we have not one tiny instance of our faithful lover speaking up to shed some light on the situation. Why?

Lazaris always says that we are not "bad or wrong" for falling prey to any of these misguided soul states, they claim they came here to provide information and help for us to overcome them. So, where is the help when the chips are down?

There is no help, because ultimately the whole L sham isn't about helping anyone but Jach. He even used Peny in his twisted and misguided way, by feeding and nurturing her twisted ego.

L is about control. When the chips are down, that is what you get. You will toe the line, you will pay obeisance to Peny and her Gang, or you will be PUNISHED.

So, for those who say I'm all full of sour grapes, I say YEAH. Let's just say that's the way it is, and there isn't enough saccharine in the Universe to sweeten them up.

When you have a mouth full of sour grapes, the only remedy I know is to spit them out as quickly as possible, and make damned sure to stop nibbling. Certainly you would't want to offer them to anyone else, or extol their virtues as a way to entice someone to cram their mouth with rotten fruit.

Yet, that is what I see in the faithful and true, a group of people sucking down one bit of rotten and bitter fruit after another because someone said that fruit is good for you, but you have to learn to like it. It's only your resistance that makes you believe that isn't nutritious, sweet and delicious fruit you're eating. Come to another seminar, do another technique, kill off another bit of your tastebuds, pretty soon that slop will start tasting good.

Fuck it, you can buy delicious fruit at the corner store, no instructions required to savor the flavor.

Sorry, Vicki, I still can't hear that story and not go off on a rant.

That Jach chose to single out your sister and use her sweetness and vulnerability to score some swipes on your Mother just makes me sick. No amount of justifying or explaining away is going to change that.

Vicki wrote:

quote:

---

I get pissed when I remember how L and CS tried to drive a wedge into our relationship. Because I'm absolutely positive that the next thing that Lazaris would have done is to tell my sister that the thinking of the rest of her family is "all wrong" and to distance herself from us.

---

Just to clarify this for myself, Vicki and anyone else in a position to respond, Did Lazaris actually say "Distance yourself from your family"?

Did Lazaris actually say that her mothers thinking was "wrong" were those the words/statements used or are those interpretations?

My reason for asking is that I spoke with someone recently who was at that intensive and this individual remembers Lazaris saying something to the effect that the girl was holding herself back out of a misguided attempt to please her mother ....or something to that effect.

This person was adamant that Lazaris did not tell her to distance herself from her family and did not tell her that her mothers thinking was "wrong"

I just want to know if these are exact quotes from Lazaris or interpretations.

Everyone hears a conversation differently, that we can assume so I am not impuning anyone here. Just want to clear that up as best as I can for myself.

Cheers,

Thanks for asking that question, since you've heard a different version of what Lazaris said in that Magic Time.

It's always good to keep our information as factual as possible.

I wasn't at that Magic Time, and only know what I have read here about the actual words that were spoken.

I am very familiar though with the end results of that special moment, and I do know that it served to create a distancing in that family. I'll leave it to Vicki and Marilyn to decide if they'd like to discuss the specifics of that here.

I can speak of how my own relationship with this person was manipulated by Lazaris though, and helped along by the sychophantic teeth gnashing of the Forum Gang.

Really, I don't feel right about going into details here, given that the subject of this conversation doesn't participate here, but I will say that she was subjected to the most vile and intense process of manipulation and indoctrination regarding her relationship with me and Ted. She was handed a choice, and the choice was to be considered "safe" to communicate with, or to stop communicating with me and Ted.

She was told that her feelings for us were silly and childish, that we were looking to start our own cult, that we are lonely, miserable people desperate for friendship, the kind of people who "never got picked for the team" in high school, etc. etc.

All this from people who never knew us, or worse from people who had met us and interacted with us in a mutually friendly way. One of our assassins was someone with whom we had a very intimate relationship and who came to us for support and counsel during a family crisis, not five minutes before jumping all over us in the Forum. I wonder why all of a sudden we became such losers?

I'm proud to say that our friend never supported those character assassinations and was sickened by them, but very sad to say that she did ultimately cave into the pressure.

My last conversation with her was so goddamned horrible and painful for both of us that I knew we did have to stop trying to communicate. Both of our hearts were shredded.

We have ultimately reached a place of resolution between us, which is basically that it's just too painful for us to try to interact in anyway beyond the most superficial.

People can analyze this situation anyway they like, but I can tell you that the pain in all of this was intense. I'm still feeling the sting of it when I think of this beautiful woman and the joy that we once shared in knowing each other, and how it is gone, not because of a lack of caring or interest, but gone because of control and manipulation.

I know that she was targeted by the Gang and friends as payback to me, Ted and Marilyn for trying to stand up in the Forum. Jach saw the weak link and went for it. Not that she is weak, but that she of all of us is the most indoctrinated. I don't take it as a sign of weakness to be the subject of mind control.

Regardless of the exact words that were spoken to her, I know that she was targetted in that Magic Time too, and I know why.

Isn't it just amazing that she happened to get the mike when so many other people were jumping up and down straining to get it?

Why did she just happen to be the "lucky" one?

Because Jach uses Magic Times to play payback, and gotcha under the guise of Lazaris, that's why.

We have plenty of other testimony to support that.

Katie

L said that my thinking IS all wrong.....and strongly suggested that "ties need to be broken."

...[[[the girl was holding herself back out of a misguided attempt to please her mother ....or something to that effect.]]]

Yes, I'm sure he said words to that effect as well...most likely when summarizing the interaction and talking "about" and not "to."

My immediate impression was "what the FUCK is going on??? Oh my God, Katie's right..." Those were my exact words and I was filled with anger at L...or was it J???????? There was no reason to say things in the "way" he did.....

Oddly,(?) a few others at the workshop thought L said it because of Forum Storm and my leaving the forum, and said so afterwards.

Also, oddly enough, I had originally called my daughter not only to see how everything was but to tell her that a friend and I had decided to attend a November workshop.....of course that trip never came about....

Marilyn

I think L meant that your sister was holding herself back from "success without struggle" because she wanted to keep a belief in struggle to 'prove mommy right." I do believe that can be true when a child loves the parent so much and is dominated by that parent...but though the love is that strong between us, we don't have that kind of relationship, as you well know. If L had been specific in that he was referring to her when she's in her child-self and the mommy I was when you were children, I'd have been understanding to that and probably would have gone to the November workshop.

IMO, it was a child-psych response to a question where it could apply to some extent to everyone. It was well-known in that forum how much we love each other. Don't forget, I posted a lot in that forum and was very vulnerable about my life as a young mother. They had MUCH info that they could embellish, if they so chose.

To me the oddest, strangest thing he said was that my thinking IS all wrong......odd, because L knows me and knows how much I loved him! Even the breaking ties part wasn't as odd, because IF we had that kind of a relationship, it would have been obvious to all, including me, and I'd have tried to break those ties myself long ago...I love her enough to do so. No, the love is very strong and intact, and it's healthy and positive, but the apron strings were cut long ago! Perhaps they weren't aware that she's been on her own for at least ten years, and worked her way through college???!!!!!

I think J took advantage of being 'L', to make that statement to prove a point to all who were listening.......because of Forum Storm and because I quit the forum. Sort of like, "Aha...here's a chance to say this..."
And I don't think it was to punish me because quite frankly, Vicki, they don't give a hoot about me!! I think it was to convince others that Peny and the rest are right because "L" said it...the way he did and because many in the audience were forum members and well-aware of what had happened.

That's my take on it as far what was said about me, but I could SPIT in their faces for doing it the "way" they did and hurting your sister!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And that's not a dominating mother talking...that's just plain loving my beautiful daughter!!!!!!!

Vick, I've been blessed with having the three most fantastic children any mother could hope for. You have all become the most wonderful young adults whom I totally love and respect with all my heart.

Mom

Thanks for letting us know. Hope you're having a great trip.

Marilyn,

Anyone who knows you has had the experience of being embraced by that vast and beautiful open heart of yours. It is no puzzle to me how all that love and magic manages to seep into your life. You sure do spread enough of it around!

It is beyond an abomination to me that Jach used a Magic Time to publicly denounce you and try to erode your relationship with your beautiful daughter. What price is he willing to charge us in return for our faith and trust?

If no other story exposes Jach as a fraud, this one should do it for anyone who knows you and your family. It is perfectly clear to all involved that Jach was trying to punish you for your refusal to cave in to the Gang's manipulations. You paid a high price for remaining loyal and true, to us, and to yourself.

I know that Jach did not succeed in destroying your relationship, but he did try, and you and your daughter had to go through dealing with that. It is just unconscionable, and I do very much wonder how Jach sleeps at night.

I love it when you share with us, your posts are always delightful and uplifting, just like you. Jach chose the wrong person to pick on. It was a cruel and calculated decision he made to do that, but not very enlightened, or strategically sound.

I guess he really doesn't know what the meaning of "love" is, given that in his world love means controlling and being controlled.

Maybe someday he will wake up to the real meaning of Love, and start doing the right thing. He can never undo the pain and suffering, but he can come clean and start telling the truth. I guess he has to start with himself.

Maybe we can dare hope that with his captor gone, he might be able to do that. That is assuming that his new keepers don't hold just as much power as the old one.

I was wondering if anyone is into discussing some of the "Magic Time" experiences you've had.

I have a few I'd like to mention, but since it's late, this one has been sticking in my mind.

During the Millennium Intensive Lazaris told a woman about a past life she had in which she had been some kind of great teacher, but very vocal against the powers that were.

To shut her up, these powers amputated her hands and feet and banished her to a solitary residence where she lived out a long life in total dependence on the help of others to provide all of her needs.

At first she had a good number of visitors, but as time wore on people became so repulsed by the site of her that she had very few visitors or support, just enough to keep her alive.

So, she just sat mutilated, helpless, and lonely for endless torturous years, her only friendships stemming from pity.

I was totally traumatized by hearing that story, and I have often wondered what impact it must have had on her.

And, don't forget, I don't have Jachzaris' skill for turning a phrase. This was one detailed and horrific story told by the Orb in all his glory. It felt as though he was enjoying telling it with all the dramatic embellishments needed to really hammer home the hell and horror of it all.

When I think of the information Chris' hypnotist source and others give on the dangers of providing predetermined imagery, especially past life imagery prior to hypnosis, I have to wonder how much damage that story and imagery might have done.

Imagine having that "memory" implanted!

Now, that might just keep someone fully and completely dependent on the "healing source", don't you think?

Once again, I see Jach doing what is good for him at the huge and unconscionable expense of others.

I also really wonder about the mind and mental state of someone who would tell such a phenomenally traumatic story in front of
fourteen hundred people.

Does anyone else remember this, or have any other similar "Magic Time" stories to tell?

Any opinions on this one?

Katie

I've done past-life regressions (without Lazaris) and I agree that they can be very healing. I also agree that emotional intensity can enhance the healing.

However, I think this is similar to the idea of making suggestions to a hypnosis subject, rather than letting them have their own experience. I'm sure you'll agree that the emotions are much more intense, real and personal when one is actually experiencing, rather than having someone else dictate the experience to them.

Then there is the tackiness of doing this in a public arena. This is intensely private stuff. Of course that indicts the whole concept of "Magic Time". Most of us prefer to close the door when we use the bathroom. If we don't others will recommend it to us. Some things are better done in private.

What Lazaris could have done is supply this person with a clue so she can go off and have her own experience. Such as, "you had a lifetime in 18th century France that seems to be affecting your current situation. You may want to explore that lifetime in your own time". Not as a good a show, though.

And of course I'm being kind here, making the assumption that Lazaris is real and that this person really did have this lifetime. If either of these premises is not true, then the crime moves from being tacky, careless and unprofessional to being despicable soul rape.

One of those subject areas I enjoy talking about…

Chris you wrote,

"I see it like this. Past life recall is nearly pointless save as for interesting entertainment unless you experience the lifetime in question emotionally. Only then can learnings come about."

Too true! Beyond pointless, they can drive you quite crazy if you don't know what is happening to you! I can not remember a time when I did not have past life recall. As a young kid I was sometimes terrified by these weird images that I knew had something to do with me. When I got older and started to study, I realized what was happening and didn't take it so personally. Life movies just seem to run in my head. (either that I have an incredible imagination! )

Ted you wrote,

"…I think this is similar to the idea of making suggestions to a hypnosis subject, rather than letting them have their own experience. I'm sure you'll agree that the emotions are much more intense, real and personal when one is actually experiencing, rather than having someone else dictate the experience to them."

In my twenty's I started to give past life readings for friends and then clients. People seem to appreciate it and it came easy to me so I continued doing it for awhile. I just held a person's hand and their 'movies' would start to run in my head.
But there came a point when I felt it was just not OK to be doing this. People became reliant on me in a strange way and the power surge I was getting off of the sessions was not healthy. My ego liked it though! People had started to put me in a strange position of authority because I could tell them things about themselves that they didn't know. Something inside of me started to be repulsed by this. My practice then took a dramatic turn and I started to focus on helping people recalling their own stories if they really wanted to.Much more empowering for everyone in the situation.

Ted you wrote,

"Then there is the tackiness of doing this in a public arena. This is intensely private stuff. Of course that indicts the whole concept of "Magic Time"."

I find the idea of doing a reading in public so offensive! I think you ARE being too kind in using the word 'tackiness'. Power tripping is more like it! What was he trying to prove? How is it healing to open up a person to such information in front of people? To me there is no excuse for such behaviour.

Thanks for sharing what you experienced. As you had been alluding to a magic time for a while, I had been looking forward to reading about it.

I am not sure what I think about Magic Times yet. I had some success with one and I also found others' time to be very helpful whenever I was at the workshops. Also, at the most recent workshop I attended, Lazaris said something to me which was very interesting given what I am doing in my life now. But, that I found them helpful doesn't mean that they weren't somehow not all that they are presented as being.

You wrote: [[Let me state that I am very upset at one thing he said during the intensive. He said something to the effect that he didn't see me changing careers. This is something I have thought of doing many times since selling my business. However, whenever I started to apply serious thought, I would always remember his words about him not seeing me changing careers. Given what I now know about Lazaris, I will no longer use this as an excuse. I can't properly express how angry I am about this "non-interference".]]]

Well, that surely hits home. It was at a workshop that I heard Lazaris condone the JL Room, saying, that there were "real people" in there, even despite all the bloodbathing. So, I took that as an endorsement to not only let my misgivings go, but to be more like the people I saw. I want to be clear, though, while I think it is wrong for Lazaris to be so codependent on the troika, I did make the choice to act the way I did and moreso, to give my power over. And that there was implied "loss of lazaris" if you didn't fall in line with the Peny doctrine had its impact. So, it is both me and them here.

It is very parental to have Lazaris say something like that, or at least there is the very definite risk. But, even something more banal as a Tarot card reading, if you are working with a reputable reader, they will never say something to you as blatantly interfering as that. They might say, "switching careers seems unlikely, but that is your choice...perhaps things will change and you will re-evaluate and then..." you get what I mean.

I remember Lazaris one time telling a woman in Magic Time about how her abortion was still haunting her!!!!!!! I was speechless. How mortifying that must have been for that woman. Interestingly enough, there was at another workshop, apparently a woman who came up to Jach and said something to the effect of "how do I know that what goes on in the Magic Times will remain private?" And, once Lazaris came through the trance after that break, he said something to the effect of, you needn't be concerned about the invasion of your privacy, the Magic Times aren't recorded, they are too private for that, and we ask that you respect other peoples' privacy, too and not share what you hear with others who might not be at this event. He smiled and talked about how he knew it was of concern to the woman because he "eavesdrops on the channel."

I present it as fact, the opinion is yours to make. I still have no idea where I come down on it, even though you could make a case that this is a load of hooey and then some.

One other thing, I also rearranged my career based upon things I "heard" Lazaris say. I am not sure it is a bad thing, but it is not the way I would have anticipated it all turning out ten years ago. I know three people who directly changed their careers, however, based upon Magic Time with Lazaris. I can't say they would regret it either, but it is interesting that his words have that kind of influence.

Moses got a burning bush at least! A little drama and effect. We got the promise of non-interference.