Welcome! I am so glad to see you here.

You wrote: [[ I have gotten a sense of myself having been addicted to following the material. And that I gave up my spiritual authority inspite of seeing myself as an independent thinker. I feel that I allowed this to happen because the material emphasized things like individuality, becoming more yourself, and using the "tools" (tapes, meditations, etc.) to enhance one's own relationship with higher forms of consciousness. Probably the same things that attracted others who wanted to grow, but were turned off by teachings involving a "master" and directives concerning areas like sex, food or clothing. ]]

Wow, I think you really hit it right on the head! And that's what makes this so insidious. It's one thing to be outright assaulted, it's another to be seduced and I have come to believe that that's what Jach/Lazaris does. It slowly robs you of your own power while giving you the illusion you are claiming and developing it.

"Addiction" is a good word to describe the hold of our relationship with Lazaris. I am now more able to see just how dependent many people are on Lazaris' guidance all the while thinking they are developing a greater sense of trust in themselves.

There are some posts on one of these threads on the hypnosis techniques Jach/Lazaris uses in the meditations - that the meditations are just that, hypnotherapy sessions and I made at least one.

But for the past several weeks my grieving and sorrow of letting go what I thought I had with Lazaris had reached a new depth. Most of my focus previously had been on the Forum members, Peny, Jach...but while there were what I called some "inconsistencies" in Lazaris' teachings, and irresponsibility and lack of character in his endorsement of Peny as this exceptional enlightened being, I had not believed he had ever directly out and out lied to me.

But when I realized through my research that his meditations followed the structure of a hypnotherapy session as defined and practiced by hypnotherapists I was absolutely devastated.

Only now can I publically share these thoughts and feelings...I needed to distance myself from them for a while, because what I now knew was too much for me to accept...for it goes beyond the meditations actually being hypnotherapy to Lazaris lying about it.

I remember sitting in a seminar where Lazaris, himself, brought up the subject of hypnosis. In that seminar he said that they NEVER practiced hypnosis on us and NEVERwould without our direct and conscious permission.

"They" further went on to explain that when someone was trying to hypnotize you they spoke in low monotone voice and spoke slower and slower as the hypnosis went on. "They" said that's why they always interjected jokes and used humor to make sure we weren't lulled into a hypnotic trance by their voice, and why they always varied their speed when they talked and interjected irregular pauses instead of rhythmic regular ones.

While that's true, those techniques are used in many cult sessions by speakers in their lectures and Lazaris didn't do that in his talks, he then carried that over to include his meditations and offered that as proof that he never hypnotized us ever before.

But a hypnotherapy session is NOT defined by those characteristics...although they may or may not be included. A hypnotherapy session follows the structure of a Lazaris "meditation" or rather the Lazaris "meditation" is based on the steps of a hypnotherapy session - the whole process of inducing a trance or altering your consciousness, creating a sense of safety, the guided visualizations, the options of choice within the visualizations, leading you to experience other aspects of yourself or other consciousnesses, the method of ending the session, the whole spiel is what a hypnotherapy session looks like.

I previously did not know that.

You can go to a hypnotherapist and get the same thing, albeit WITHOUT, the promise of eternal love and personal intimacy with the benevolent being who is leading the session...if the hypnotist is ethical that is.

So at this seminar, Lazaris then asks for our permission to hypnotize us...(as if he had never hypnotized us before)...so that "they" might implant a suggestion in our subconscious for a very powerful reality creating technique. (I am just floored every time I think about this...I can tell you this show of asking permission was a major trust builder for me!)

Of course, presumably everyone in that room said yes in their minds, because Lazaris then took us on a "hypnosis" session...giving us the option to quit any time (which is another quality of a hypnosis session). He used the monotone voice and the long rhythmic pauses between words and the slowing down of speed, which was markedly different from the "meditations" he normally led us on.

The thing that sticks with me the most is that after the session was done, Lazaris said, "Now you know what it's like to be hypnotized and now you can tell if someone is trying to hypnotize you."

And wasn't I just so grateful to have a friend look out for me like he did?

It took me years and years later, this board and visiting various hypnosis websites to realize what hypnosis really is...and not the crap that Lazaris fed me.

Lazaris used a half truth - the characteristics of hypnosis that unscrupulous speakers use while lecturing - to intentionally mislead and deceive us into believing that if these particular characteristics are not in a "guided meditation" then it is not hypnosis. AND he then gave us an "example" of what he claimed a hypnosis session was to throw us off track from the truth under the guise of empowering us to know the truth!!! Oh my god!!!

Now how can I twist that one around to keep my belief that Lazaris might be real -- whether real as in a real entity or real as in a genuine trustworthy being? I can't and the tears fall...

I don't know why Jach/Lazaris chose to bring up hypnosis at that time, except maybe the question arose as to "their" methods. But I do know that whole scenario was a deliberate deception and this deception was carried out under the pretense of showing respect for us and concern for our ability to discern.

I am a believer in the power of hypnotherapy to heal - now that I know what it is, and evidently I've been doing it for a long, long time - over a decade's worth. I've experienced great healing in those sessions with Lazaris. What pisses the hell out of me is that NO ONE EVER ASKED ME FOR MY PERMISSION TO BE HYPNOTIZED.

I gave Lazaris permission to take me on a meditation, not hypnotized and even according to him there's a difference!

And not only did Lazaris NOT call a spade a spade, but he went out of his way to call it something else.

The unethicalness of it all!!! No one has a right to hypnotize you without your permission, and Jach/Lazaris knows this...that's why "they" made such a big show out of asking permission in this huge charade of honest exchange and information.

Peny, Jach and the Forum gang often accuses ex-Forum members as being angry people...no shit. We got reasons.

We are all on a journey of discovery, I think, Lorca. And I do thank you for sharing yours. I want you to know that your above quote makes it easier for me to be a little more compassionate towards myself and perhaps a little easier to forgive myself for having given so much of my trust and power away for so long.

I look forward to reading more of your posts. May your journey of reclaiming your power be gentle...I know reading the words of other seekers here brings me great comfort.

Thank you for a marvelous, informative, and passionate post. I know the pain of which you speak, caused by the deep wound inflicted by betrayal.

As I have written here also, it was a study of hypnotherapy techniques which brought down the house of cards for me too. Like you, I was in a state of questioning and doubting due to the "Peny Big Lie", but I still was unsure, still hopeful even.

I was doing a search for "Lazaris" on the internet, and found a hypnosis site:

http://www.adventuresinliving.net

which outlined a hypnotherapy session in which one is guided to find their personal metaphors and archetypes for the purpose of identifying deeper issues and healing. As I read along, I became more and more upset as I recognized an almost identical pattern of a Lazaris "meditation" emerge.

One thing I have never found out is why or how that site is connected to Lazaris. Someone did note that on the front page there is a reference to Lazaris, but why or how the connection? Was Jach a fellow hypnosis student with the person who put up this site, or a student of his? I wrote and asked, but never received a reply.

This brings up another issue, that of the vague and inaccurate stories we are told about Jach's history. If Jach studied hypnosis at some point, don't we have a right to know that? Why all the fluffy fairy tales about Jach's past, and why didn't we all demand to know more before we invested in this guy?

Imagine what would happen if someone posted in the Forum and asked Jach if he had ever studied hypnosis! Do we have to speculate on the response? Let's face it, we aren't allowed to know. The only way we will ever know these things is for people who do know to speak up and tell us. So, if you do want to know, promote this site, and encourage those who have information to share it. We all have the right to know, and maybe for the sake of our sanity, the obligation to find out.

I have also found references to lawsuits against mind control groups specifically initiated over the issue of involuntary hypnosis. As I recall, the specifics of the lawsuit listed the hypnosis as a human rights violation. I also recall that the lawsuit was successful. I'll try to find the article which referenced this.

Ted and I studied and practiced meditation techniques prior to our introduction to the Lazaris materials, so we always knew that these were not actual meditations, but more accurately "guided visualizations". I like you Seeker, accepted Jach's promise that we were not being hypnotized. We were being hypnotized, you are correct.

The bigger problem I have with all this is to wonder to what extent we were being subliminally manipulated during these hypnosis sessions. One could argue that it's no big deal because the "meditations" were helpful, and left us feeling positive and wonderful. Well, that in itself is a hypnotic suggestion. How much of the feeling great was just nothing more than Jach deliberately and consciously using a technique which has been proven to leave people with a sense of well-being, and then attributing that to the great love we were receiving from the entity?

How many of these profound blending experiences were the result of post hypnotic suggestions?

Beyond all that, is the faith and investment we all placed in the teachings and techniques due to these marvelous "heart opening" sessions.

Crap, a Las Vegas showman could have given us the same feeling after turning us into a clucking chicken on stage and making a fool of us.

Were our strong feelings and beliefs about the teachings a result of post hypnotic suggestions? Were we hypnotized out of asking questions or thinking for ourselves?
Were dependencies being implanted in our subconscious minds, beliefs that we "needed" Lazaris, or that something bad would happen if we stopped using the techniques?

Who can tell to what extent we were manipulated and controlled by this hypnosis?

I do know that as each day passes, as I consciously evaluate all my "beliefs" which were established through my relationship to the Lazaris materials, I find that not only do I reject them, but I see how they have created a pattern of self doubt and feelings of failure and inadequacy within me.

Ted and I are in the process of negotiating a profitable little business deal which just fell out of the sky. It's going along with no problems, and I have no anxiety about it.

During my Lazaris years, given the same scenario, I would have first believed that the "falling out of the sky" was a result of my programming and processing, and then become extremely agitated about the whole thing, doing work to "sustain the energy", processing away any "blockages", programming my crystals, posting in the Crystal Cave, etc etc. Sometimes I think I lost deals like this, simply because I believed that I had to do all this work to keep them alive, and focused on that rather than just closing the deal like every other business person does on a daily basis.

So, yes, this is a tremendously important area to explore and think about IMO. And it's a damned good reason to be pissed off and to function as an incentive to really come to a decision about the "realness" of Lazaris.

If we were being hypnotized, suggested, controlled and manipulated, that is something vital to address.

I know that some here aren't at this moment wanting to invest in making that call, but from my perspective, it is extremely important to do that.

Of course, given the amount of time it took me to be ready and willing for that, I know that these things come in their own time.

Again, thanks for writing and sharing your thoughts and feelings about this very important issue. I think it is something that needs to be explored and addressed if we are to get to the real truth about our relationships with "Lazaris", Jach, Peny, and C/S, and to protect ourselves against any future attempts at psychic invasion.

We must, must, must, learn to know our own minds, and to protect them from the influences of manipulators, control freaks, and self-promoters.

Lots of love,

Katie said: This is where Jach is stepping dangerously close to the line of actually breaking the law. Licensed psychologists have been prosecuted for encouraging "delayed memory syndrome" if that is the correct term.

The official term is False Memory Syndrome. There is a False Memory Syndrome Foundation (FMSF) I believe out of Canada, but I am not sure about the location. Personally, I believe the FMSF has many, many good points, and knowledge about how memory and the mind works. Their info is definitely worth research. I also believe that due to the nature of the organization there is an unfortunate opportunity for real offenders of sexual crimes to go protected under their umbrella.

Katie said: This is where psychologists have been found to have "helped" someone remember childhood abuses which cause them to become alienated from their families, sometimes these cases have landed in court, and it was later discovered that there was no truth to these memories at all. People's lives can be ruined by this kind of irresponsible "therapy" that Jach is practicing without a license to do so. Scary stuff.

yes, Scary stuff. On the other side of the FMSF, is the people convinced that Satanic Ritual Abuse (SRA) exists. According to these victims, and psychology/psychiatry professionals of various kinds a special kind of Satanistic Ritual abuse is running rampant all throughout the US. SRA includes horrible stories of young girls giving birth to children and being forced to slaughter and participate in cannibalism rituals of those children. While there is absolutely NO PROOF that these women were ever pregnant. Or that anyone was killed in the locations they pointed out. Also due to modern forensic science it is impossible to remove all traces of blood after a killing.

There are a extreme amount of bizarre stories about this, and other stuff, and the (SRA) party line to those memories seems to be that since there is no proof it happened it is because Satan helped remove the proof. I have been in contact with people whom I am convinced have been unethically implanted such memories, and talking to them is bizarre.

According to the FMSF these memories are implanted through hypnosis, and unethical use of psychological techniques.

According to the believers in SRA there are many victims out there whose stories goes unheard. Personally, I also believe that sexual abuse in many forms does exist, and the victims have as much a need to be heard and understood as I have after leaving my cult.

Of course, this is a hot topic in cult watching circles, as the FMSF claims the psychology professionals who comes up with those cases actually uses mind control techniques to convince their clients it happened.

I hope I have done a decent job of representing both points of view here. It might be worth doing some research on it for you folks :o).

Lorca said: "For most people, myself included, it's hard to fathom that anything and everything is fair game for con artists. I've had to learn to stetch my imagination in terms of what lengths some people will go to when it comes to exploiting others financially, emotionally, intellectually and spiritually.

In my group we were not implanted false memories as such. However, our real memories were manipulated, and anything painful in our childhood or background where again and again brought up exagerated and held against us. The teacher would early on find out where our emotional weaknesses were, and make full use of that knowledge. When I realized the very first time she made use of one of my emotional weaknesses I became shocked how fast she had found where it was. Maybe she was just guessing that it was a way to handle me. But it was amazing that she knew so much about how to handle me that quickly.

If we responded in any emotional way to her emotional manipulations we would be punished.

Everything is fair game for a cult leader... Absolutely EVERYTHING.

Do notice in Steven Hassan's BITE model, there is a part that talks about unethical use of confession. Having to tell the teacher all your painful memories and having the teacher dig into any pain that you might hold certainly qualifies.

Katie said: It feels good to get angry about that, doesn't it?

Both anger, sadness, pain, and fear are normal responses after leaving a cult. It wont last if it is taken seriously as it happens.

Learning, as I believe all of you are right now, what mind control actually is brings us a giant step closer to protect ourselves from it ever happening again.

Katie said: I feel like some invisible restraints have been removed, I'm unshackled, so to speak.

We are all FREE now. That is the one huge, incredible change we made for ourselves... We are free.

With lots of love,

Malene

When I first came across the posts discussing Lazaris hypnotizing us without their permission, I didn't fully allow how important that is and so I wanted to start this thread in case others might be interested in helping put this in perspective.

Hypnotizing someone without permission is a serious thing and I am very strangly not having a strong emotional reaction to it yet...[g]

Could that be a function of still being "entranced" cultified? possibly. It is also possible that I sort of considered those meditations hypnosis-like anyway, and I wanted my subconcious worked with. It is heinous though, that Lazaris made such a deal about never hypnotizing anyone without their permission.

I understand from research you cannot hypnotize someone against their will. Of course we all agreed to be hypnotized by Lazaris but we perhaps called it "meditation"
That Lazaris lied and called it meditation is fascinating.

I mean imagine if we heard on a tape "And now dear ones, We are going to lead you through HYPNOSIS" There might have been a slightly different reaction
[g]

I am begining to believe that those who listen to Lazaris addictively as I did are in a state of waking hypnosis. I am coming to believe that I have been operating for years under posthypnotic suggestions.

I think those of us heavily into Lazaris became focusbound on Lazaris and the teachings. It became the organizing principle of how I experienced the world.

This intense focus, I am coming to believe is the result of post hypnotic suggestions. The fact that so many others experience their focus being so heavily on Lazaris [instead of say..um..life?] on what Lazaris says on how to fix themselves tells me there is something purposful in this deceit.

Of course, the lie about not hypnotizing us should be enough to shake anyone out of their Lazaris somnabulism.

Is it semantics? do some people just call hypnosis meditation and visa versa??

I don't think so [g] I think Jach knows "Lazaris" is really using hypnosis and calling it meditation. From what I have read hypnosis, the form of it, is pretty standard.

Interesting though, if they would claim a semantical difference in argument. This from an entity who has defined every single human emotion in detail, who has the audacity to tell us what Love is what forgiveness is what all of these subjective personal states of being are. It would be ironic for them to say its all semantics.

CS used to love to boast that while others tell you to love yourself Lazaris teaches you HOW.

I don't disagree with Lazaris' definition of love per se, just that somehow it creeps me out now that they are defining love. If god goddess all that is is comprised of Love as they say, aren't they in effect, defining god with the 14 point checklist?

To be fair Lazaris always said love was an alchemy that couldnt really be defined, so maybe I am off on that..

At any rate one very interesting bit of information about hypnosis, dont know if anyone has mentioned it here or not..but I find it fascinating.

You do not have to be relaxed to be hypnotized, just focused. You can be totally stressed, nervous and fearful and be hypnotized..

Food for thought..

Cheers,

Jeremiah

Jeremiah said: It is also possible that I sort of considered those meditations hypnosis-like anyway, and I wanted my subconcious worked with.

I have come to believe that any form of consciousness enhancement technique, can and at times are abused by cults to program people, and ultimately gain a much stronger control over people.

It doesnt matter if what is used is endless droning talking, singing sessions, official meditation, guided imagery, or anything else.

I think it is extremely important to recognize the potential for such techniques to be abused, and used against us, so we can find ways of protecting ourselves against it. It is also important to recognize that such programing can, and will last for a very long time if it is not recognized and counteracted.

I think it is also necessary to recognize that altered, or I prefer to just call it different, states of mind are actually quite normal. I believe that everyone does it in different ways, and to different degrees.

I for one know that I can enter several different kinds of altered states really easily and quickly. Sometimes in a matter of seconds. I often have to focus more on learning not to do that, than on learning to do it.

I say several different kinds of altered states, as I also believe there are some significant differences in the experience, and result of altered states, however no matter what the experience of it is, it can be used to gain control over us.

Jeremiah said: I understand from research you cannot hypnotize someone against their will.

I would love to see that research, is it on the net? I would strongly dispute that statement, but I would like to see the whole research so I can better understand the context.

Jeremiah said: I am begining to believe that those who listen to Lazaris addictively as I did are in a state of waking hypnosis. I am coming to believe that I have been operating for years under posthypnotic suggestions.

I think that is a reasonable thing to atleast question inside yourself. There are probably several different programs running there, including I would hazard a guess several which are fear based.

Of course you would know that much better than I do though :o).

Jeremiah said: I think those of us heavily into Lazaris became focusbound on Lazaris and the teachings. It became the organizing principle of how I experienced the world.

Makes sense.... I wonder what that means to you now when you are leaving?

Jeremiah said: Is it semantics? do some people just call hypnosis meditation and visa versa??

Well, I do believe that the lines between different altered states, and the techniques to get to those states are blurred I have to admit that.

No matter, it is up to us to find out how we can protect ourselves when we do enter such altered states.

Jeremiah said: CS used to love to boast that while others tell you to love yourself Lazaris teaches you HOW.

Thus, making a intensely personal strong emotion like Love, something ridiculously simple, easy, and very much black and white. Part of the lure of cults of course is that they offer easy, fast answers to life's complexities.

Jeremiah said: If god goddess all that is is comprised of Love as they say, aren't they in effect, defining god with the 14 point checklist?

Creepy huh?

Jeremiah said: To be fair Lazaris always said love was an alchemy that couldnt really be defined, so maybe I am off on that..

Ohh.. Another typical cult trait is to have two, or more, sets of teachings.

One which you show people early on, and which is so clean it can be presented to everyone. This teaching also serve to keep questioners off balance, because of the rightness of that teaching.

A second one which is not shown right away, until the initiate is "ready", which is usually a lot less benign, and which will keep people confused and off balance.

Jeremiah said: These people MUST know they are being hypnotized since it would have been part of their training? maybe not?

Wellllll.. Sometimes it is hard to notice for ourselves when we break that barrier into an altered state of mind. Maybe because it is a normal thing that we do.

It is also my unfortunate experience that even psychology/psychiatry professionals have an extreme lack of knowledge of what mind control is, how altered states of mind function, how those altered states of mind often are abused by cults etc.

In fact this lack of knowledge is pervading not only in the psychology/psychiatry industry, but also among religious leaders of various kinds.

If they dont know this information they will be just as vulnerable as the next guy for the con men.

Jeremiah said: Thoughts?

Yeahh.. Plenty, dont I always :o).

BTW, Jeremiah, sorry if my initial posts to you came across a little too touchy feely for your personal taste buds. I do have friends who often tell me to get out of the sugar bowl, as I am beginning to make them diabetic :o). It is part of who I am though so I guess they, and you will just have to live with it.

Knowledge of cults, and how to recover is very close to my heart, and I do get emotional about it myself.

Kind regards
Malene

I am still trying to sort this out...and I probably will for quite some time to come. I've heard others, besides yourself, Jeremiah, express that the thought of being hypnotized didn't really bother them. Some have expressed that they knew that's what was going on.

But I know I didn't. I believed there was a difference between the two, and part of that is because I heard Lazaris, himself, say there was.

For me there's the issue of being hypnotized without my permission, and then there's the whole other issue of being lied to by Lazaris. He's supposed to be outside of this set, isn't he? Isn't he supposed to be incredibly trustworthy because he's not subject to human desires and prejudices?

There's a tendency to want to separate Lazaris from Peny and the Forum. A very dear friend told me that they didn't care what those around Lazaris did, that it didn't affect their relationship with Lazaris or what Lazaris directly said to them or did.

Okay, let's forget about his endorsement of Peny and what that entails. Let's forget the Forum. Let's just look at Lazaris, himself. The point is, Lazaris did lie and in my case, he lied directly to me. And it wasn't a small "white" lie. It was a deliberate act of deception under the guise of love and empowering us.

Others have since said they also remember Lazaris going through this thing of asking for permission to hypnotize as well.

This lie is what really blew things apart for me. And it really does matter if Lazaris isn't consistent in other areas besides our own immediate relationship! Think about it!

It really does matter if people are getting abused at the hands of others because of the special status Lazaris gives those others - even if you or I or anyone else is benefiting from the material or their own relationship with "Lazaris".

It matters because people matter and what's good isn't solely determined by whether it's your precious self that benefits from it or not.

We are not alone. And what happens to other people matters, and if it doesn't then you better start worrying about your own sweet little butt, because you might find it on the hot seat the next time...and then you're going to wish that that mattered to others.

(Even though I'm using the pronoun "you", I'm not directing this ranting at you, by the way, Jeremiah! I'm just getting animated and passionate about what I am realizing more and more each day!)

What kind of mapmakers are we anyway if we can turn off our concern for others in the name of getting to be mapmakers for the good of humanity??? How convoluted is that?

When the rose colored glasses come off, then you start to name things you've always "seen" but discarded, rationalized or conveniently forgot.

It's not just the hypnotizing issue. I remember another seminar where Lazaris/Jach was talking about working with our chemistry...and with that cute little grin of his, as he was talking stopped and said, that yes, that was it. Once we had our chemistry corrected, we were essentially home free - free to create, program whatever. But that we had done the work with our blockages, poisons, contracts, child/adolescent, negative ego etc, and all we had to do is take care of the chemistry. We had all the techniques we needed. There wasn't anything else to be "fixed".

Yet, wouldn't you know it??? After that there was shadow work - the spiritual imperative, and more stuff and more stuff...all work we still needed to do to deal with our negativity.

And you know what I told myself to reconcile this disparity between what he said in one seminar and the further techniques and issues that then followed? I told myself that if I had done it right, if I had allowed it to work, the chemistry work would have been the last hurdle for me...however, because I wasn't ready to let go of my own negativity, Lazaris was now providing me with other ways of dealing with what I still have to overcome, but am stubbornly refusing to let go, because I wouldn't let the previous methods work. It's not his inconsistency, it's my limitations, my faultiness.

In this Lazaris fog, when in doubt, always doubt yourself - not this great nonphysical being or the person they endorse. If there's something wrong with this picture, it's you.

Of course I still have work to do...and quite a bit of it is dealing with the impact of being lied to by Jach in the guise of Lazaris...or if you need to still believe Lazaris is real, then by Lazaris, himself.

But at least, I don't have to go through this alone. I can't begin to tell you how much I value each of your thoughts and insights - everyone who has chosen to post.

And every person who chooses to read with an open mind and willing heart, no matter how trembling, know your energy makes a difference here too.

I know what you mean, it pissed me off when I figured it out, but when I read of a successful lawsuit against a group for doing that, I really started to wake up to the seriousness of such an insidious invasion. I think our reactions to these things come in waves. Funny how the sight of someone else defending themselves can open one to the personal realization of abuse.

"Could that be a function of still being "entranced" cultified? possibly."

I know that I am easily entranced, especially at the sound of Lazaris' voice. I am noticing many "triggers" in music, certain words or concepts can send me back into "Lazaris" feelings. I am trying to remain conscious of this, and watch and listen to myself carefully. It's a trip, actually to realize how mind controlled I really was. I see it more clearly every day. I have removed all my crystals to the balcony outside my bedroom, and I'm trying to figure out what to do with them now. I'm afraid to even start trying to work with them again, I'm so saturated with crystal b.s., I don't know what's real about them. I know one thing, the crystal skulls are all leaving, all but one.

"It is also possible that I sort of considered those meditations hypnosis-like anyway, and I wanted my subconcious worked with. It is heinous though, that Lazaris made such a deal about never hypnotizing anyone without their permission."

Yes, I noticed from the beginning the similarities of the "meditations" to hypnosis, I always knew they were not in any way meditations, because I know what meditation really is, but that was more stuff I just blew off in my zeal to get all the magical, mystical information and healings. It is heinous and criminal to hypnotize another without their knowledge and permission. We were manipulated to give permission without realizing what we were actually permitting.

"That Lazaris lied and called it meditation is fascinating. "

I always just considered it a misuse of the term, why the hell didn't I ever question the use of that term? It makes me crazy to think about what a sheep I was. Meditation is a completely different experience, it has nothing whatsoever to do with being led by anyone, or having images provided. It is a private and personal exercise in quieting the mind not having it stimulated.

"I mean imagine if we heard on a tape "And now dear ones, We are going to lead you through HYPNOSIS" There might have been a slightly different reaction[g]"

Yeah, one of them might have been to save some money and go to our local hypnotist instead of shelling out the big bucks for the workshops, airfare, hotels, etc. Given what I read on the adventures in living hypnosis site, a hypnotherapist trained in Alchemical Hypnotherapy could provide a much more personalized and appropriate opportunity for us to explore our personal metaphors and archetypes, and apply those to our specific life images, assuming we would want to pursue that type of therapy, or trust a hypnotist.

Our dear Paramahansa Yogananda long ago cautioned against repeated hypnosis sessions, explaining that they could be very damaging to the mind. I think I'll read up on that some more and review what he said.

I hate the realization that Jach the Mind Ripper takes it upon himself to provide such a generic form of "therapy" for people, some of whom are dealing with serious life issues. It's dangerous, unethical, and disgusting to me.

"I am begining to believe that those who listen to Lazaris addictively as I did are in a state of waking hypnosis. I am coming to believe that I have been operating for years under posthypnotic suggestions."

Yep, me too. That sure is one logical explanation for the obsessiveness.

"I think those of us heavily into Lazaris became focusbound on Lazaris and the teachings. It became the organizing principle of how I experienced the world."

Absolutely true for me and Ted too. I may just have eroded my relationship with my only daughter beyond repair because I did that. How's that for magic and miracles?

"This intense focus, I am coming to believe is the result of post hypnotic suggestions. The fact that so many others experience their focus being so heavily on Lazaris [instead of say..um..life?] on what Lazaris says on how to fix themselves tells me there is something purposful in this deceit."

Me too, I believe it is purposeful, carefully thought out, and some how justified, don't ask me how. Hell, maybe Peny is the worlds foremost mind controller, and she had Jach under her spell, and has trained him to do this. I actually believe that is true on some level. Who knows how much of an independant mind Jach, or anyone around The Divine Ms. Peny has left?

"Of course, the lie about not hypnotizing us should be enough to shake anyone out of their Lazaris somnabulism."

LOL, I'm shaking away here. Sounds like a disco tune coming .......shake shake shake shake your mind free!

"Is it semantics? do some people just call hypnosis meditation and visa versa?

I don't think so [g] I think Jach knows "Lazaris" is really using hypnosis and calling it meditation. From what I have read hypnosis, the form of it, is pretty standard."

No, no, absolutely not. Meditation is a very specific technique, it is achieved in complete silence, and is totally personal. Even the fakiest of the fake meditation gurus shut up when it's time to meditate. Like I said, in a way, meditation is silence, not all that mysterious actually.

"Interesting though, if they would claim a semantical difference in argument. This from an entity who has defined every single human emotion in detail, who has the audacity to tell us what Love is what forgiveness is what all of these subjective personal states of being are. It would be ironic for them to say its all semantics."

Yes, it would be interesting to ask the question of "Lazaris" to see what they had to say. Of course, you know as well as I do, that you couldn't ask that question in the Forum and get an answer, you'd be accused of having some kind of soul disease or be deemed lacking in gratitude or something. No questions answered there, only lessons taught.

"CS used to love to boast that while others tell you to love yourself Lazaris teaches you HOW."

Yeah, lesson number 1. Worship Peny as the Embodiment of Love". No thanks.

"I don't disagree with Lazaris' definition of love per se, just that somehow it creeps me out now that they are defining love. If god goddess all that is is comprised of Love as they say, aren't they in effect, defining god with the 14 point checklist?
To be fair Lazaris always said love was an alchemy that couldnt really be defined, so maybe I am off on that.."

Snap out of it holy man, you know what love is {g} Did we really need Lazaris to define it for us? No, we can't always find the words, but we sure as hell know the feeling. I think it's safe to say that every one of us has had the experience of pure unadulterated joyful bliss love at least once.

That is another point in favor of true meditation, because that is the goal, to access that fathomless pool of pure clear mind bending heart opening undeniable LOVE........in the silence of devotion and desire....not from through the guided imagery of some megalomaniacal, wanna be, overpriced guru.

"At any rate one very interesting bit of information about hypnosis, dont know if anyone has mentioned it here or not..but I find it fascinating.
You do not have to be relaxed to be hypnotized, just focused. You can be totally stressed, nervous and fearful and be hypnotized.. "

So we have discovered!

"Food for thought.."

Much.

Thank you for a wonderfully thought inspiring post.

I offer this information in light of our seeming agreement.

quote:

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The American Medical Association's Council on Scientific Affairs issued a report on the use of hypnosis in 1984. No therapist or client should consider using hypnosis for any purpose without first reading the full report and studying the known risks of this technique. Here are some quotes from the report:

"It is the consensus of the Panel that hypnotic age regression is the subjective reliving of earlier experiences as through they were real--which does not necessarily replicate earlier events."

"Although the Panel recognizes that there are many factors--including leading questions--that affect eyewitness testimony in the non-hypnotic state, subjects in hypnosis are more vulnerable to the biasing effects of leading questions."

"[T]here are clinical case reports that appear to demonstrate memory enhancement in hypnosis. The vast majority of these reports are anecdotal, and most fail to provide independent corroboration of the memories recovered in hypnosis or to establish that hypnosis was responsible for any effects observed."

"In no study to date has there been an increase in accuracy associated with an appropriate increase in confidence in the veracity of recollections. Consequently, hypnosis may increase the appearance of certitude without a concurrent increase in veracity."

"Witnesses and victims, however, are not selected for their mental health .... the Panel believes that it is essential that hypnosis be conducted by a psychiatrist or a psychologist who is competent to help the witness or victim deal with overwhelming affect."

"Not only is there a question about the accuracy of a subject's recollection during hypnosis, but there is also the problem that hypnosis leads to an increased vulnerability to subtle cues and implicit suggestions that may distort recollections in specific ways, depending upon what is communicated to the subject. Both the expectations of the hypnotist and the prior beliefs of the subject may determine the extent of confabulations or pseudomemories during hypnosis. The manner in which a question is framed can influence the response and even produce a response when there is actually no memory."

"Before proceeding with hypnosis, informed consent should be obtained from the subject."

"The Panel found no evidence to indicate that there is an increase in only accurate memory during hypnosis and recognized that there is no way for either the subject or the hypnotist to distinguish between those recollections that may be accurate and those that may be pseudomemories."
One of the known risks of hypnosis is the deliberate or inadvertent suggestion of information to the client by the hypnotist. Research studies have shown that even without the use of hypnosis, interviewers can suggest information to and cue desired responses from interviewees unintentionally and without either party being aware that suggestion has taken place. This unconscious "cueing" is believed to occur through body language, tone of voice, and other implicit means of communication. Consider this warning issued by the Royal College of Psychiatrists in 1997:

"Forceful or persuasive interviewing techniques are not acceptable in psychiatric practice. Doctors should be aware that patients are susceptible to subtle suggestions and reinforcements whether these communications are intended or unintended." -- "Reported Recovered Memories of Child Sexual Abuse: Recommendations for Good Practice", Report of Royal College of Psychiatrists' Working Group on Reported Recovered Memories of Child Sexual Abuse
When hypnotized, a person's succeptibility to suggestion (whether deliberate or inadvertent, conscious or unconscious) may increase. Individuals vary in their degree of response to hypnosis. Herbert Spiegel, M.D., studied suggestibility and hypnosis and classified 10 percent of the population as highly-hypnotizable "Grade Fives:"

"Spiegel also claims that Grade Fives exhibit 'readiness to trust; a relative suspension of critical judgment; an ease of affiliation with new experiences; a telescoped time sense; an easy acceptance of logical incongruities.' He thinks that they possess a capacity for intense concentration, 'overall tractability [and] role-confusion, [with] a subtle sense of inferiority.'" -- Victims of Memory, p.184
Such individuals probably have a greater-than-average risk of developing false memories of events which never occurred, particularly if hypnosis is used during psychotherapy, if the individual is not warned about the risk of suggestion, if informed consent is not obtained, or if the therapist assumes that problems in adult life are always rooted in childhood experiences. Research studies currently underway may shed light on the possible connection between suggestibility, hypnotizability, and the development of false memories

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More to come.

I wonder what the penalties and settlements will look like for an unlicensed therapist?

quote:

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You get the facts - then you decide

Renee Fredrickson wrote a book called Repressed Memories

Some people think she's an expert on "boundaries" [But see below]

But she and her ideas hurt people and she got sued. She settled for $175,000!

The Minnesota Board of Psychology investigated Fredrickson and wrote an order outlining her harmful practices found she had committed 15 counts of professional misconduct, including:
inability to practice with reasonable skill and safety to clients due to a mental illness or condition
failed to limit practice to areas of competence
failed to consult with other professional and failure to inform clients of innovative nature and known risks associated with a newly developing service, technique, or specialty
failed to safeguard private information on clients
impaired objectivity and failure to terminate services and refer clients when objectivity or effectiveness impaired
failed to terminate a professional relationship even though the client was not likely to benefit from continued professional
services

The Minnesota Board of Psychology
permanently restricted her from providing therapy to clients whose therapy issues involve cult, ritual, or satanic abuse
restricted her from providing hypnosis or guided imagery services without supervision until she is competent to provide them
ordered her to be psychologically evaluated
ordered her to take and successfully complete a boundaries course
fined her $15,000

---

Speaking of failure to safeguard private information on patients, how many of you are aware that the newly disembodied Ms. North was believed to have to listened to private reading tapes and discuss the contents over dinner and with buds over the internet?

Am I angry? Yes, are you? If not, why?

Thanks for the post with the pages on hypnosis,, a bit of a tough subject for MEEEEE..

A story comes to mind, that I'd wanted to post b-4 but the arena was so dominated by Chris( I don't like him) so I never told this story... but I will now....

When I was about 17,,, I went to one of those typical hollywood fantastic hypnotist "shows"
others may have seen them in Vegas,,,

Anyway, this hypnotist did amazing things with peepull who just volunteered outta the audience, normal peepull.who would go up on stage...
ok, so he gets different ones to do different things,.

THEN he goes on to say that if there are a few peepull in the audience that are easy targets (if you will) for hypnosis, then he is gonna do this thing and it should happen to random persons,,,,
so my buddies DAD who took us to this show is put under by this event!!! way cool... he puts his hand on the chair in front of him, and he cannot let go..
his hand won't budge, (that was the hypnosis thing we are laughing, and we tell him to get serious, he says he is serious, he can't move his hand, it is stuck,
then the hypnotist "releases" them, and then they wake up or some such thing.
Afterwards in the car he can't remember that he fell under, he swears hs did not have his hand stuck to a chair, how stupid...refuses to believe us...

This long story was to illustrate that I think peepull can be hypnotized at a distance, in an auditorium, and even with the full knowledge, and even in a room where everyone was "awake" AND not remember it either..

I think hypnosis is a very dodgey issue, that is it is able to change, and be altered to suit the arena, the venue, the persons involved etc. and I full well believe that I was put in a hypnotic state (chris verified that via posts of course)
I did not give my consent to L. subliminally or otherwise....And I do not know if I have been told stuff that I don't want to have in my head, and who the hell knows if it will ever go away.

It has been asserted here with authority that there is no cause to question the safety of the Lazaris "meditations".

I dispute that. My personal experience is that I have been harmed by them, and I'm still evaluating the extent of the damage.

I contend that they are not meditations, but unauthorized hypnosis sessions. I'm sure each of us is fully capable of coming to our own evaluation of that. There is much information available on the internet, and I have provided links to much of it on the other Hypnosis thread. I don't have a lot of interest in repeating all that, so I assume that those who think this an important issue can do their own research.

Here is an interesting link about the potentials and dangers of hypnosis based on CIA documents and research.

http://www.parascope.com/ds/articles/hypnosisInterrogation.htm

Just had a quick trawl through Katie’s link. Here are some quotes which may be pertinent to the issue of hypnosis and it’s potential.

All the quotes are from:
CIA Study: Hypnosis in Interrogation This study, written by Edward F. Deshere, appeared in the CIA journal Studies in Intelligence in 1960. This document explores some of the possible applications of hypnosis during interrogations.

The concepts of suggestion and suggestibility as applied to hypnosis, introduced about 1880 by the Nancy school of hypnosis investigators, have been developed and refined in modern times. In a major monograph Hull (10) concluded that hypnosis is primarily a state of heightened suggestibility and has the characteristics of habit in that it becomes increasingly easy for a subject to enter the state of hypnosis after he has once done it. Welch, (26) in an ingenious application of the conditioning theory, pointed out that trance induction begins with suggestions which are almost certain to take effect and proceeds to more difficult ones. While the concept of suggestion does provide a bridge between the hypnotic and the normal waking state, it does not explain the peculiarity of the hypnotic process or the causes of the state of trance.....
.
The Subject Unaware:. Hypnosis has reportedly been effected without the subject's awareness in three situations -- in sleep, in patients undergoing psychiatric consultation, and spontaneously in persons observing another subject being hypnotized.....

The older literature is replete with references to somnambulistic hypnosis induced by giving suggestions to sleeping subjects in a low but insistent voice.....

It is frequently possible for a therapist to perform hypnosis with the patient unaware. Advising the patient to relax, suggesting that he would be more comfortable with his eyes closed, and so on, the practitioner may induce a deep level of trance in a relatively brief time without ever using the term hypnosis. Even though the subject has not explicitly consented to be hypnotized, however, his relationship to the hypnotist, here a man of reputation and prestige, is one of trust and confidence of justifiably anticipated help.....
.
Observers of hypnotic demonstrations may spontaneously enter trance. One of my own psychotherapy patients has reported that she went into a trance while watching me demonstrate hypnotic phenomena on television. This spontaneous hypnosis occurred despite the fact that the patient was in the company of friends and it was therefore a source of embarrassment to her. But here again we are dealing with a subject in sympathy with the purposes of the hypnotist and one who feels himself to be in a safe situation.....

We are led to the conclusion that the many apparent cases of hypnosis without the subject's awareness or consent all seem to have depended upon a positive relationship between subject and hypnotist. The most favorable situation is one in which the subject expects to derive benefit from his association with the hypnotist and trusts in the hypnotist and his ability to help....

In the case reported by Kroener a young and sensitive unmarried male schoolteacher came under the hypnotic influence of a neighbor. Beginning with neighborly hospitality, the neighbor built up the relationship to the point where he was able by hypnotic suggestion to get the schoolteacher to give or lend him small sums of money and goods. As a test of his power he then implanted the post-hypnotic suggestion that the schoolteacher would shoot himself in the left hand. The schoolteacher actually did shoot himself in the left elbow, subjectively perceiving the event as an accident. Finally the hypnotist caused his victim to confess to crimes that he himself had committed. Throughout the entire affair, lasting five years, the schoolteacher had no recollection of the hypnotic sessions. He was convicted on the basis of his post-hypnotic confession, but through a chance remark began to suspect the nature of his relationship with his neighbor. After many appeals, he was recommended for examination to Kroener, who eventually uncovered the true course of events by re-hypnotizing him and causing him to remember the hypnotic experiences with his neighbor.....

You said: Hypnotists tell us that hypnosis is safe and that we will immediately awaken if we are given an unwanted suggestion

Do you know of any research that actually backs up this widely accepted claim? Perhaps this is just another widely accepted folk tale that was started out of their own self-interests.

Let's assume for a moment that the statement that we will awaken when given an unwanted suggestion is true. Then the question is what is an unwanted suggestion? We all have our very dark sides. A suggestion may be quite welcomed by that side. Would our "normal" side overrule in this case?

I don't know of any specific research; perhaps you're right. It is the sort of thing that would be difficult to research ethically. It would be "interesting" to go to an ethics committee and say that you were going to suggest to people that they give you all their money, then see if they did or not!

Here's an interesting link.

Is this hypnosis or meditation?

http://www.adventuresinliving.net/sample.htm

This is the site for the hypnotherapist who for some reason lists the Con:Sin site in his "links to hypnosis healing and other related sites."

For those who haven't already visited, take some time to check around, you'll find lots of familiar techniques.

Thanks for the link.

The "legal" page has some interesting comments. I'm wondering if these could apply to the Saturday night "healing" meditation. Also of interest was the fact that you can become an ordained minister for $5. With this title, you are legally allowed to marry and bury people!