- "Smoking is ONLY dangerous to your health if you BELIEVE it is!" Huh, Jach? Kinda like gravity only working on you -- if you believe it does aye? You assh*le -- how many vulnerable "New AwUDge" true believers did you condemn to inadvertent, agonizingly slow lung cancer suicide with that one?! Jesus Christ.

- "Aerobic exercise in the morning before eating will only cause you to turn whatever you eat later in the day to fat!" Fine. Ask any *in-shape* fitness authority alive today -- Joch. The "consensus", Jach is that you are: substantially over-weight, 100% WRONG about this -- every body building authority with a hard-earned six pack, myself included (after years of being out of shape behind your IMO -- filthy "expert" tutelage) and *Tony Robbins* -- ALL say so!

Eat my fitness success dust, you IMO misguided parasite.

Hey guys! :0) ...let's do this reeeaal slow..

What do ya'll have to add to this ugly little "longevity" list from your fond, tearful Lazaris Workshop memories?

Steve

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Are you serious, did Jachass actually prescribe specific herbs for you?

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No not specifically for me. A friend attended a seminar in which "Lazaris" presented a fairly long list of herbs, maybe minerals and vitamins too. She and I both took them. The suggested herbs don't bother me as much as the context of "Lazaris's"authority (on everything!) from which they were recommended. Furthermore, I think a particular brand was recommended.

About being in balance, I used to wonder why nothing was said about physical activity and exercise. Aside from being healthy, it is grounding and centering. But I Con:Sin strategy is to keep true believers unbalanced and teetering. The love bombing, encouragement etc. is punctuated by tapes that incite inner disturbance and fear -- the most recent to my knowledge being the one on The Nemesis. Maybe you are doing well, feeling fine, then BOOM!, something else to clear before it can bring you down.

I used to think that all the tapes, techniques, meditations, seminars, "homework" ad nausem, which I sure couldn't keep up with, didn't leave a whole lot of time for living life.

Love,
Jade

You wrote:

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So here sits Jach, channeling 30-60 hours per week, presumably "sleeping," likes to sleep so probably sleeps at least 8 hours per day, sits around wheeling and dealing and yet, somehow, has
the time, the energy, the intelligence to memorize lists and dosiers that are somehow accumulated that have all kinds of juicy facts, photos, secrets from each and every person who has come to a workshop, whether it's their first time or not. Neat trick, I'd say.

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As Nancy pointed out, Jach claims to not need much sleep because Lazaris invigorates him. The story of levitation, as Wayne noted, came from "Lazaris" himself. As did the story of the handicapped child who calmed down upon hearing a Lazaris tape. Great evidence! Let me tell you about all the times I levitated...

No one claimed that Jach has a dosier on "each and every person who has come to a workshop". If he did, no one would ever have to give "Lazaris" their name at the crystal ceremony. "Lazaris" never recognized me, even after 10 years and countless blessings.

I saw C:S people whisper in Jach's ear during these ceremonies on several occasions. That is not hearsay. Oh yes, the stories about manifesting physical objects - told by Lazaris, as well? Circular logic.

If I saw Lazaris levitate someone, or someone without an agenda told me about it, I'd be impressed. For Lazaris to toot his own or Peny's horn means nothing. Except maybe that Lazaris doesn't have enough confidence in the power of the teachings to really change people's lives, so he makes up grandiose stories to impress us. Sound and fury signifying nothing.

You're still making the claim that we "debunkers" can not change our minds. I responded to that claim earlier. You didn't respond to my response - you ignored it and continued to make the charge. That's dismissive.

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Yes, Wayne, that is the primary levitation story I heard. The rest of the story, though, is that the woman was in critical condition and, though freaked out by the experience, left the hospital the next day. Lazaris said he had to learn to step down his energy and that was part of his "learning curve."

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From your perspective how does an entity who does not experience "time" experience a "learning curve"?

Curious, because in order for there to be a learning curve there has to be a past a present and a future in which progression occurs.

I know that Lazaris says they make mistakes sometimes. I always liked that about Lazaris and it helped me to trust him and his message.

Mistakes don't necessarily rely on time to occur [although you could argue that they do] but a learning curve? The whole concept of a learning curve is time-bound.

But anyway, my question is how can Lazaris be subject to "time" when learning something when "time" isn't a part of his reality ?
Lazaris says often that he barely notices time when he is communciating through the unit/channel.

Lazaris often looks at Pursel's watch to asses the time needed for crystal buying and bathroom breaks and explains that "we may have time but they don't".

Usually that is said with a knowing wink in his voice leading us to assume that time is a limitation that he can toss aside or assume at will.

That leads me to assume that Lazaris has to do a little accomodating for us to even notice that time exists, so much so that he has to check out Jach's watch to know that time has passed.

So why I wonder, having such a remote experience with time as to not even know when to announce bathroom and crystal buying breaks, is he subject to time when learning something?

I wondered if you had any explanation for that. I was never able to drum up a convincing answer to that question when I was working with Lazaris maybe you or others have insight into that.

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There were rumors or possibly only speculation about a couple of other levitations. I never saw any so I cannot validate them.

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For me, the ability to levitate is no more an indication of spiritual depth or understanding that someone with say, an extrodinary athletic ability.

It demonstrates something very specific and yes very impressive. It demonstrates that the person has trancended common thresholds to acheive something "super physical"

For someone to conclude that because someone has the ability to levitate or manifest oranges from ashes that the individual is enlightened in other respects is a trap.

An interesting thing to note here is that Lazaris talked about this in a round about way once.

Lazaris was discussing Madame Blavatsky who was famous for materializing and dematerializing herself as well as for being two places at once.

Lazaris explained that Blavatsky wasn't "really" dematerializing or appearing in two places at once but was simply hypnotizing people into believing
that she did.

Her powers of hypnosis were so well honed according to Lazaris that she could hypnotize people while in normal waking conciousness to believe she had trancended gravity and time and space.

Intersting theory from Lazaris, food for thought.

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As in all interactions, my understanding is that Lazaris would not "do it for us," and rather only facilitated.

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Yeah, of course. Isn't it strange that it people would want Lazaris to "do it for them" even after he so eloquently explained why that was disempowering and indeed against his principles?

Wonder whats going on there.

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This came up not only in regards to Peny but also in regards to Anna (her best friend until her death about six years ago,) Gerald, Jach's right hand man who died a few years ago, Judy (who was closely related to the workers) who died back there a few years ago, too, and countless "friends of Lazaris" who have also moved on, in death.

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Geralds death and the reactions to it have been discussed in these pages.

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Lazaris has said he will not intervene,

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No, that isn't correct. Lazaris has said he is happy to intervene/help. What he has said is he will not create our reality for us.

Lazaris is more than willing [to hear him tll it] to intervene to help in anyway at all that we are willing to allow him to.

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though I know that there are certain circumstances in which he will assist. We have our own Higher Self, as I understand it, who is more appropriate for that type of interaction.

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Well, I would respcectfully interject here that it is more appropriate for us, the conscious self, to examine our own beliefs and feelings and change them where appropriate.

That is what is appropriate in my view, not continually infantalizing ourselves in relation to other "higher" parts of ourselves and to Lazaris.

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Again, Lazaris claimed not to want to be our master. When I think about this, I try to imagine myself in his position. How do you help without actually intervening? How do you offer information without giving the appearance of a guru or master?

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Well, lets see. If you are a teacher [and Lazaris never implied he wasn't a teacher] you could teach people the mechanics of reality creation and encourage them to change their beliefs.

That is pretty empowering and nobody has to intervene or anything.

You could impart all this information with respect and with succinctness and that would be it.

That would be a very simple way to impart whatever you had to teach without creating a guru persona.

Sitting in hotel ballrooms in big royal looking chairs surrounded by flowers doesn't help to diminish that impression of going for gurudom.

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How do you have a friend who seems so much wiser and loving? Do we choose friends who are less wise and loving as ourselves?

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One great way to have a friend wiser and more loving than you is to absorb their example.

Actions, not protestations.

Action in thought and deed are the most powerful teachers and communicators.

Is Lazaris example of love and wisdom inspiring to you? If so that inspiration is a gift.

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It looks like a tough row to hoe, to me. Our desire to find love makes us really vulnerable, I think.

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No, our desire to extract something we think is love from inappropriate sources makes us vulnerable.

In my opinion the same impulse that leads people to make bad decisions in singles bars that they later regret is the same impulse that leads one to sign up for gurus and non-gurus alike.

The hunger the inner child has for recognition for acknowledgment that is undernourished finds what appears to be that nourishment and recognition in the guru/spiritual leader.

For those that have a perhaps more heightened critical thinking sense they require gurus who claim not to be gurus even though they act like them.

Cheers,

Jeremiah

Wow, this is very interesting! We had some posts going back and forth in here in which we discussed the fact that it is a prosecutable offense to dispense medical information without a license, and how Peny was routinely doing that.

Now we find that she started backpeddling on that.

I tried to find the threads and dates where we were having that discussion, so we could compare notes on the timing of her change of heart about playing doctor.

Anyone remember where and when we were having this discussion? This search engine here isn't too groovy.

Thanks for filling us in dogstar.

I am enjoying your posts.

I haven't been in forum for while but I do recall that Peny did not post on metaphysical threads. Sometimes in the crystal cave she sent energy and always with caveat "remember to forgive yourself." But that was it.

As for the scientist, I offer this. There was a man in Santa Monica who did muscle testing. His name was Steve and he saw lots of Lazaris people over the years. Peny and Jach flew him to Florida and he got calls daily I seem to recall. But his mistake was to announce to everyone that "jach calls me every day." That did it for ol Steve. Now, Steve did not know much about nutrition but used some type of homeopathic remedies as well as extensive muscle testing.

Steve actually told a friend of a friend that she had some disease (can't recall now) when it had been previously undiagnosed.

My sense is that people blamed some of the remedies Lazaris gave at longevity workshops for not working and it possibly created legal problems. I'm only guessing here. I remember him giving dosages of hydrogen peroxide and stuff like that. If you get the dosage wrong and gargle with it or something it will totally burn your insides out. And with people on forum giving their power away so easily it would not surprise me if there were legal problems.

Looking forward to your next installment.

I wonder why on earth people who had access to an all wise entity 24/7 would need a muscle tester?

Anyway, a lot of good either of them did Peny.

There other healing tapes that work with chakras (as does the Longevity tape too), Also recommendations for herbs, and for slathering oneself in hydrogen peroxide and aloe vera, hot/cold massage showers and so on. It only seems reasonable that J/L's best and brightest "friend" would be following the supreme advice of the Orb. And it bombed. As did whatever superhuman healing energy one would suppose an incredibly powerful entity like L had to offer such a particularly good "friend." Makes me think of a test run for a proto type plane that didn't get off the ground.

Peny may have been on a pedestal, but she remained a mere mortal, with limited exposure relative to L's. Jach is having a much more difficult time creating a plausible reason for Peny's death, than he did with his glorified romance novel version of Michaell's suicide.

I'm not inferring that the quality of Peny's health advice is not significant. But there are lots of people like me who had little exposure to the forum, but have relied heavily on Sparky's "wisdom" concerning health.

One thing I do remember from the forum was Peny saying that she intended to use progesterone (and maybe pycogenal) to remain pre-menopausal indefinitely. I thought that was a strange idea considering the value J/L attributed to life passages. Seemed like P wanted to avoid becoming a Crone, even though that is a stage in the evolution of individual human consciousness. Also indicates that she planned, and wanted to live a long time.

There are surely other areas like this where people sought to imitate Peny and should know if there was a negative health effect.

But her death reflects so over whelmingly negatively on "Lazaris" and his teachings. Non health related areas are compromised too as far as manifesting "Lazaris" style goes.

This could well lead to a major unraveling of interest and support in C:S and the "Lazaris" material. This particular death was a failure in the sense that it showed Peny failing her words, and all that power, authority and wisdom failing "Lazaris."

Love,
Jade

I thank you for your thought filled words and attempt to address the questions I have.

They are very big and complex questions and they keep reformulating! It is difficult to even write them out as I am feeling these questions more than thinking them. I do not expect my questions to be answered all in one place or by one person. I just keep chipping away at them. A piece of the puzzle falls into place and more questions start to arise.
One of the big reasons why I bring these questions up here is because many of my beliefs about how the world works...how miracles happen...how success is achieved was formulated on what Lazaris said. I am now questioning everything about Lazaris. Not just the channel, not just Con:Sin but the concepts that Lazaris taught us, how they taught us and how much or how little they taught us.

On choice...I understand what you mean about making choices in the moment. Actually when I think about it, it is the only way I could live in this situation.
I live day to day. When we have a good day...we celebrate. When we have a traumatic day we do what needs to be done to get through it.
The difference for me lately is that I do not guilt myself out for not creating something different. For not programming more elegantly...more successfully. For all I know...this is success! Kaydn is alive and loved and so am I.
I have released the idea that I am in negative ego or martyr for creating this unelegant, painful, maddening situation.

It is in situations like mine where I realize that Lazaris material has very big holes in it. I do not believe I am just going to 'program' this situation to be different. Been there, done that, bought the crystal.

My son lives with a life threatening illness. And I no longer believe that any amount of technique, meditation, crystals, unseen friends or cosmic rides in dexra-what-ever is going to change that.

Can he be healed? I believe so. But it won't happen while listening to a Lazaris tape.

A friend first told be about the Con:Sin site and suggested that I get a membership so that I could go into the 'Crystal Cave'. She thought that I could receive some spiritual support and answers on how to help Kaydn. When I first wrote in I receive a few posts from some people wishing me well but silence from Jach and Penny. Oh they took the time to write to me about other things in a friendly manner but never once mentioned the crisis that was going on in my life. Since then I have come to realize that they deliberately avoid those areas that would require some sort of physical evidence of a miracle occurring. All the miracles and healing they talk about go on in peoples minds or they kept them to vague areas like taking the responsibility for preventing a storm causing too much damage. Hey the world would have ended by now if it weren't for the mapmakers union holding all together!

OK people might manifest a car or a job but these aren't real miracles. They are great! And no doubt happened because the person made a choice to put their energy into creating it but they are not miracles.

I have heard of more people having miraculous recoveries from simply praying than practicing any Lazaris technique.

Thanks for writing Katie.

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The ultimate failure of the most perfect and wonderful woman in the world to consciously create her own goal of a long life (altho for all we know she may have achieved her goal of menstruating throughout the rest of it).

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I wondered about Peny's plan to avoid menopause. Even the Orb described the importance of life passages, especially the spiritual growth and focus occurring after reproductive functions cease. So Peny's wish to keep her female hormones pumping full blast indefinitely was essentially contradictory to moving on into wisdom. All that Goddess talk, yet Peny chose to subvert nature and avoid becoming a Crone.

Anyway, as I understand it, women still have plenty of female hormones after menopause (about 65% of previous levels). They are reduced just enough to eliminate the ability to conceive.

How about turning the white elephant into a recovery center for former cult members, who could dive and breech in the newly anointed Pool of Freedom? (Of course first the former Pool of Pee must be drained, disinfected, scorched with fire, blasted with ultrasonic and filled with purifying sea water for 23 weeks.) Glad you like ducky.

Jade

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As my sister went on to pointed out, sleep deprivation is a classic method
cults use to control their followers.

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Good to hear from you.

Jade

Please email me with your address and I will send you a copy of the raw quotes. Just so a "web crawler" doesn't pick up my email address and start spamming me, I will give it to you in a weird format as if it were being read to you:

CRABOU at ATT dot NET

You make a great point about the sleep tape. In addition to the cult aspect you mention, I think this flies against all current medical wisdom regarding sleep. I think I've heard that sleep deprivation causes either more or close to the same number of deaths in the U.S. as does drunk driving. The fact that you and your brother were zoned out indicates to me that this advice was harmful to the health of the both of you. I'm wondering if you caused a car accident while "under the influence" of this advice whether C:S would be legally liable.