Please also visit Ted and Katie's description of the forum storm at:

Forum Storm

Hello,

A few years ago I got clobbered in the forum, and witnessed a similar shattering experience happen to another member at the same time. When this other member apologized, that apologizing was an extended ritual of humiliation. Not wanting to subject myself to that, yet not wanting to burn any bridges with Lazaris or CS, I made a perfunctory apology to all and left the forum for good. All this occurred within a couple of weeks of joining.

Just before this new year, I was wishing I could resolve the very mixed feelings I've had during the years since that incident. I still worked with the Lazaris Material, but continued to have disturbed feelings about the forum incident. How ready this "spiritually evolved" group was to anger, to see things only in the most twisted negative light, and to be so very unforgiving. Unfortunately, I assumed that I must have been in the wrong somehow, but could never could figure out why so many people got so upset. You know the drill, all those loving entities, along with Lazaris's mouth piece, plus his best and brightest bud, Peny were so hurt and so outraged!

Now it's quite clear to me that my experience was not an isolated event but typical forum behavior. The incongruence between the "Love and Peace" of Lazaris's communications and Peny, Jach, and the group's behavior was very confusing for me. But I thought the material was excellent, so I kept buying and listening to tapes.

I always wondered after my incident on the Domination Forum, did the offended members all post each other acknowledging that they were in "victim", "martyr", "blame", "self pity"? Guess not. And why so much rage simmering in their magical mists? Accountability and responsibility -- those are only for the offender to claim in their own illusion.

I got on my road to resolution when I discovered this site a couple of weeks ago. Reading Katie and Ted's experience and the many posts helped me get the whole picture and speeded up my processing. I'm posting so that others who have their doubts about Lazaris in association with this destructive forum will have more validation for their feelings. Yes, something is very wrong. No one needs to have mixed feelings about spiritual teachings. As Ted said, I want a cleaner spirituality. This whole thing has truly redirected me back inward, solo.

Cutting loose of working with Lazaris feels really freeing. I wish that clearing my mind were as easy as clearing out all the tapes, books and videos. They were in almost every room in my house, and in my car.

But concerning the question, is Lazaris "real", I have a question. What do you think about Lazaris saying your name, eyes shut, when giving crystals during the crystal ceremony?

Lorca

I saw some of the posts shortly after this all came down and recently I went back to do some more research and found the entire thread gone. I am very opposed to censorship of any kind. As I know there were no cursing or vulgarity...and I've seen some posts where Peny has used vulgarity...I see no reason for any kind of censorship, and yet it has happened. I think the last post from Ted would have been around April with a couple short friendly greeting type posts later, but the incident of which you spoke in June is gone. Posts by other members, one of whom left and didn't return and her daughter who left but did return are also gone. It's as if none of this had happened...the last post that was kept of Ted is of his apology to Peny for coming across as more fair than others. It made me mad, because that is only part of the picture of what occured and now unless you had read the deleted thread, you will have no idea except Ted's apparent "admission" of guilt. This is a half truth, it's deliberate and very mean.

Though I am not a frequent visitor to the Forum when I am there it is getting increasingly more difficult to try to fit the behavior, attitudes and judgements of Peny and other posters with my own sensibilities.

I haven't come to a conclusion yet...I have been involved with Lazaris' teachings now for over a decade and he has played a tremendous part in my healing and spiritual walk...but I know something is simply not right here. May I ask you to comment on accusations from Peny and other Forum members that you and Ted were trying to set up some rival group in which you portrayed yourselves as givers of unconditional love or something to that effect?

I don't like anyone trying to limit my right to ask questions or come to my own conclusion. They may have kicked you out of the Forum...if you didn't just quit on your own, but I won't allow anyone to decide who I will or won't talk to.

I look forward to your reply.

We were out of the Forum by mid April, so maybe you aren't looking far enough back, although I'm not surprised to know that the threads might have been "surgically removed".
That is so typical of cult behavior, which we have come to recognize as being most active in the Forum. It would make sense to delete those posts, there is just too much there which could not be explained or justified, especially in the light of the "Lazaris" teachings, not to mention basic human ethics and logic.

You ask about the accusations that Ted and I were attempting to set up a "rival group". That was one of our favorite ad hominem attacks, another technique almost universally used by cults, meaning, attack the person, rather than the argument. I'll say this first, and then explain the situation. In the final analysis, it doesn't matter if Ted and I were trying to set up a rival group, because that would be a separate issue. The use of that accusation was just a technique to divert the conversation from the topic, which was that Peny had made misstatements about Ted and others in her post. That is what I addressed to Peny which started the whole Forum Storm. That issue was never addressed, instead the whole discussion became about me and Ted, our characters and motivations.

Ok, the "rival" story is this. When we were in Orlando we met some people from the Forum, and we all bonded quickly. We began to spend lots of time together, and were having a great time, sharing our love for Lazaris, and our excitment about the Millennium celebration, etc.

The day after the event ended, most of this group gathered together near the pool. We just all seemed to gravitate together and we were having a great time talking, laughing, just being together. Of course we were all discussing the event, and the rituals and techniques we had learned. We all had our little bags of magical gifts from the event, and someone suggested that we do a little ritual together. We did that, it was very sacred, and very powerful to be working together like that. We all committed to remain friends, and to remain in communication, and to continue to work magick together. Since the people in the group were literally from all over the world, Ted offered his internet skills to build us a website where we could continue to communicate once we were all home. Everyone loved the idea.

Also, during that time together we discussed the concept of "covenance" which had been the focus of one of the rituals during the Intensive. Someone suggested that the word "coven" was a root of that word, or vice-versa, and we began to talk about the idea that we had all been drawn together for the purpose of forming a kind of "coven" or group committed to doing magick together.
We all really liked that idea, and it was also suggested that the Orlando gang was most likely also such a group. All this was just us theorizing and chattering, but for me it did shed a new light on the concept of a "coven" a word or concept I had never given much thought to. Whether or not we were a true "coven" really wasn't the point, but it was discussed. The real point was that this group of people felt a tremendous amount of love, excitement, and empowerment from working together and we were all high as kites about it. I still have the pictures from that afternoon hanging next to my desk, as for me, it still stands out as one of the most beautiful moments of my life.
I did, and still do, love each and everyone of the people who were there that day in very special way. The energy we generated was palpable.

When we got back home, Ted did build us a website, and a message board similar to this one. Almost everyone participated, including a few who had not been present at the ritual. We were all just busting with joy, love and excitement.

On several occassions issues from the forum came up, there were a few who had some serious scepticism about Peny already, and we had a lot of conversation about not using our little forum to do or say things that would not be acceptable in the Jach and Lazaris Forum. I wrote a long post about my thoughts on Peny and the Orlando gang, in which I stated that whenever I had doubts about anything pertaining to them, I always defaulted to their wisdom, rather than criticize or judge them in a negative way, since after all, they are the people closest to Lazaris, the "true magicians", etc etc etc, and that we should all judge ourselves by their standards rather than our own (talk about being cultified!). My opinions were shared adopted by the group, and we made a rule against any negative commentary or analysis of the Forum or its participants.

I don't know if you were at the Intensive or not, but one thing that really stood out for me, and was a foundation of my feelings about our group was that for the first time in my experience, Lazaris had attendees interacting personally with each other. Prior to that, Ted and I had always pretty much come and gone from workshops with little or no contact with others. Maybe a little conversation here or there, but these workshops had been very personal, and very much between us and Lazaris. All of a sudden, we are in rituals where we are touching each other, looking into each others eyes, really having personal interactions, right up to the last ritual, in which everyone in attendance literally physically touched everyone else. That was quite powerful for me, and quite meaningful.
I took it as a moving to a new level of interaction, as the beginning of a true community of Magicians. The thought excited me, and seemed to be a logical continuation of the grid work some of us were beginning to do together in the Forum. Anyway, that was my thinking at the time, and the basis for my excitement about our group. It had nothing to do with Ted and I wanting to start our own group, or to rival Jach and Peny, as was alleged (stated as fact?) in the Forum.

When one of our members mentioned our group experience in the Forum, all hell broke loose, and we were accused of being childish idiots, lonely desperate losers in search of friends. Jach stated in the Forum, and then later using the same words at at seminar that "covenance is not about making new friends". We never said it was, and it was quite revealing to me that "Lazaris" used Jach's same words at a workshop. That was one of the events which started me doubting that there even is a "Lazaris", because one thing I knew for sure is that if there were a "Lazaris", they knew exactly what had gone on between all of us, and what our motivations and thoughts were. I knew for sure that the beauty and love we all felt together was something wonderful, not something to criticize or seek to diminish. I got to wondering why anyone including Lazaris would have any problems with our little group of loving friends. Of course, I now know why, it is because cults don't support individual thinking, and fear little splinter groups. It all makes perfect sense to me now. At the time, it hurt beyond words, it hurt and confused all of us.

I hope I have answered your questions about our "rival" group.

For the record, Ted quit the Forum on his own, I was thrown out by Jach. He had written to me privately and asked me what I wanted to do to "clean up my mess", and did I want to remain a member of the Forum. I responded to him that I did want to remain a member, but I needed time to think, and that I'd like to just read along, and post more later when I had time to clear my mind. He wrote back that since I was planning on continuing to post without taking any responsibility that he was terminating my membership "effective immediately". So much for a loving, honest, Jach. I'm sure that no matter what I had said he would have thrown me out, and Ted too, if Ted hadn't resigned first. The Forum is about ass kissing, not about a true dialogue. As I said to Jach in a private email, the Forum is a romping ground for Peny's ego, and nothing more. I now believe the whole "Lazaris" myth was created to appease Peny's limitless ego, but that's another story.

I fully understand your confusion about Lazaris. You see something wrong there, but you can't deny the experience. I went through that too. It was a source of enormous pain and confusion for me. For so many years I was such a faithful believer. I had so many intense experiences with "Lazaris" moments of "blending" when I physically felt myself surrounded by this incredible force of love and support. That love was a source of daily comfort for me, and a constant inspiration to grow and learn more. I did magic, manifested miracles, and cried more tears of joy than I could count. How could this energy possible be false?

I took the whole thing apart, piece by piece, like unravelling a tangled ball of yarn. In the end, I could not accept Lazaris' words about Peny. In my opinion and experience, and the experiences of others, she is nothing more than a raging egotistical bitch from hell. I never felt one iota of love from her, despite the many many assertions by the Orlando Gang, Jach, and Lazaris to the contrary. I looked into her eyes, and saw a cold, dead soul.

Once I admitted to myself that Lazaris wasn't telling the truth about Peny, I had to accept that Lazaris isn't the great, loving, truthful being we are told they are.There could be nothing innocent about propping Peny up as a Stellar Being, an Enlightened One. Not when she uses it as she does, to control, judge and hurt unsuspecting people.

But still, how to explain the experiences?
Well, as I've written on our website, I asked. I asked the Love, the energy which has been with me for so long. "Are you Lazaris? Is there a Lazaris? If so, Lazaris, explain this all to me." The answer I got was basically, that there is no such entity which chose Jach through which to channel. There are no channeled entitites of this description, and all such claims are false.

But, the good news is, the Love is real, the experiences are real, at least the personal private ones which resulted in our growth or gave us real assistance or insights.

The rest are experiences created by a clever mind control hypnotist and are nothing more than emotional manipulations and false images deliberately created to provide Jach with a hefty income, and he, Peny, and their band of Gangsters with a forum for abuse, control, and manipulation. I don't honestly think that they set out initially to do that, but that is what it has become, and it is a freight train out of control at this point.

Once again, I want to say that we are not here to convince anyone of anything, but are most willing to discuss our thoughts and experiences with people like you who are having doubts.

Our opinions are just that, our opinions. I certainly don't ask or expect anyone to take my words as fact, or to act upon them. My hope is that others will do some of their own thinking, put together their own puzzle pieces, and share the results with us if so moved.

We are not alone in wondering and questioning, or in our anger toward C/S. It is my belief through my cult investigations that a dialogue with others of similar or like minds is incredibly valuable in helping to sort through the mess, and also as a part of healing the hurts and resolving the confusion.

Mind control is rampant and insidious in our society. It is not something to be ashamed of, or to punish oneself about. It is something to study and understand. I believe that Jach and Peny have made a life work of studying mind control methods and techniques, and that what they do is deliberate, conscious, and evil beyond words.
They are not the only ones who have gotten rich and powerful from utilizing these tried and true techniques. Peny's hero, Madame Blavatsky, another exposed fraud, was the originator of the concept of this type of channeling that Jach claims to do.

True sincere seekers are the most vulnerable to these techniques. Most cult members are highly educated, intelligent, honest people who are easily manipulated by opportunistic frauds. I have met many many ex-cult members, and we all have much in common via our experiences. I hope you will do some studying up on the mind control techniques which define a cult. I think you'll be most surprised to find out to what extent the Forum functions within that definition.

All the best to you, Seeker. Please stick around, and again, thank you so much for writing.

If I'm recalling correctly we were gone from the forum by the time the "cult" allegations began. We only know bits and pieces and have speculated on the rest.

Don't forget, our friends were told that they would be considered "unsafe" if they continued to communicate with us, effectively ordering them to make a choice between the Forum and our friendship. Anyone care to speculate on the pain and anguish that caused?

And then there was that famous email that went out telling people that they would be breaking the law should they continue to talk to us because of the agreement they signed when they joined the forum. Imagine that anyone would take that crap seriously, yet some did, at least for a time. Talk about censorship!

I guess it doesn't much matter who started it, but what does matter is how many people jumped on the bandwagon in support of Peny in character assasinating us. It was a feeding frenzy for some very nasty people, and nothing more. Those who tried even in the most delicate way to question all this behavior were quickly put back in line. There was no opportunity for anyone in the Forum to speak up, lest they be treated to some more of the same. Who had the courage to face that? No one was able to succeed in getting the conversation focused on the actual issues, and away from character judgements and assassinations.

The one who hurt me the most was the Forum member we met in Orlando who spent private time with us, sharing very personal events from her life over the dinner we had together. She was the one who introduced the idea that we were a bunch of lonely desperate people longing for friendship. Yet, she never mentioned that when she met us face to face she felt enough trust and interest in us to share her very private circumstances, and to introduce us to her young child, or that she hung out with us, and participated in the laughing and celebrating on New Year's Eve that she later labeled as pathetic and childish. That was sad for me, she was someone I respected a lot, was happy to have met, and who was also previously abused in the Forum to the extent that she stopped posting for over a year. She chose to trash us rather than confront the reality of why she was abused. Sad stuff.

Also sad is the "friend" of ours who was so maligned and abused in the Forum from day one. She became a true foil for the sadistic inclinations of one of the "stellar ones", and was rountinely trounced on, negatively judged, mistreated, and spoken to as though she were a child. Her every word was analyzed and disparaged. Yet, when she had the opportunity to do the same to us, she jumped in with a fervent zeal. I think she thought that she would somehow vindicate herself by galloping into the forum on her big white horse to "save" Peny from these terrible "attackers". Funny thing, how all of a sudden, when this woman was acting like a Savior, and was being incredibly and demonstratively dishonest, manifesting the worse type of behavior as defined by Lazaris, all of a sudden she was a hero and being elevated and defended by the same people who had given her zero respect previously.

Go figure.

I just wonder if any of these people have since bothered to take any responsibility for the true pain and anguish the whole mess caused a lot of loving, innocent, honest and good people. All in the name of getting in good with the Stellar Ms. Peny. Better to lie than get on the wrong side of "the Enlightened One". I wonder if they have since figured out that Peny doesn't care a whit for anyone but herself. I think she enjoys all the abuse. She sure has a bizarre attachment to that one notable pit-bull within her close circle. He needs a muzzle, not a forum.

And then, one still has to ask themselves how Lazaris could allow any of this to take place. Lazaris promised to love you and me forever and a day, just like everyone else, yet somehow remained silent and uninvolved while we were being lied about, other than to echo the lie about our group's motivations at a workshop. Only you and I know for sure the extent of the lies, but Lazaris would know, if there were a Lazaris.

Scary stuff.

Katie

Oh, thank you for posting here! I can't begin to tell you how much your words and sharing of your experience and perception means to me. This is still very hard for me. Katie and Ted's experience and their courage to put it on the web means a lot, but it's important to have more than two ex-Forum members' voices - especially those who may be accused of having a "bone to pick"...no offense intended or accusation implied Katie or Ted. But I think you can understand the point I'm trying to make here.

It's just good to hear from someone who hasn't been grilled but who through observation and conscience saw what was happening and came to this conclusion. I understand about the friends still involved with Lazaris who don't want to hear. How hard it must have been for you to come to this conclusion five years ago on your own!

The fact is I am still on the fence, in the sense that I'm not ready to fully admit Lazaris isn't real. It's like there's two parts of me...I'm holding two beliefs and examining them both and even though I know where this is leading me I just can't admit it...yet. I just need more time...

But I have this place to come to and now to read your words makes me feel just a little less crazy. It's so ironic one of the things in Lazaris' teachings is to never give your power away to another. I had always liked that. I always felt I was being encouraged to think for myself, that Lazaris honored my thinking process and ability to do so.

But belonging to the Forum slowly erodes your trust in your own ability to think. It seems to me you become more and more dependent upon Peny and her closest friends to determine when you're in negative ego or martyr or child or any other number of places you don't want to be! And if you're not grateful to them for not only pointing this out but the manner in which they do it...which is always, always for your own good...then that's evidence you really are in negative ego and so on.

Peny, in my opinion, is the eye opener, the weak link as it were in this whole thing. Not only her but those who she picks to be closest to her in the Forum. There is something very, very unhealthy going on there. You are right, it is very hard to reconcile her as this exceptional consciousness. You really have to either turn a blind eye or do some very serious mental gymnastics to accept Lazaris' endorsement of her and when you can no longer do that, then the whole thing begins to unravel.

Thank you for posting here. Thank you so much!

[[It's a lifeline to my sanity.]]

Yes, it is crazy-making (to use a "Lazaris" term) to try to reconcile the contempt and dishonesty of the Orlando Gang with the apparent love and wisdom of Lazaris. Fortunately for me, I was/am able to distiguish between "Lazaris" and my true Spirituality - that my Spirituality exists with or without "Lazaris" mitigates the fear of losing it by rejecting "Lazaris".

I think that was the fear that Peny tried to exploit - not only in us, but in other Forum members - when she said that Katie "threw her spirituality out the window". I'm grateful that she said that, because it was the defining moment where I knew that the shame that she attempted to dump on me was not coming from a person who is in touch with reality.

[[It's so ironic one of the things in Lazaris' teachings is to never give your power away to another.]]

I was just thinking about this last night. It's one of things that kept me hanging on. I don't know if it's a clever game of playing reverse psychology of if Jach tries to appease his conscience by planting seeds within the Lazaris material that can grow into the realization that it's a sham. I mentioned somewhat sarcastically in the thread about the Florida "magicians" inability to create an elegant election that I feel that Jach may be using the Lazaris teaching as a way to express his own feelings. For example, I have reason to suspect that his politics are further to the left than the rest of the Orlando Gang (then again, whose aren't[g]), but he very rarely, if ever, posts in the political threads.

The political posts written by the Orlando Gang often contradict Lazaris. An example: In the Lazaris Interviews Book II, page 214, "Lazaris" says, "Well, indeed there is a hole in the ozone. At the South Pole, the Antarctic area, it's very thin, and in the month of October it's particularly thinner than ever. Yes, it is a real concern. Pollution of the atmosphere from various flourocarbons, and various other by-products of industry, has had a very damaging effect on that ozone layer, there is no question. ...But there are progresses being made within industry and within the particular groups of people fighting pollution"

Yet there was a whole thread in the Forum, dominated by the Orlando Gang, where they suggested that there is no thinning of the ozone layer, or, if there is, it may not be a cause for concern, and there is no evidence that it is man-made. These are people who supposedly believe that Lazaris is from the Higher Realms, has a unique perspective and is never dishonest. When I held these beliefs about Lazaris, the comments I quoted above were enough to convince me that the people who doubted that there were man-made problems with the ozone layer were wrong. Why didn't the Orlando Gang come to the same conclusion?

Given that I now believe that Lazaris is not real, I'm back with the rest of the "Consensus Reality" wondering who to believe about the ozone layer, and also feeling that the reason "Lazaris" made those statements is because it represents Jach's personal beliefs about it. Jach, as far as I remember, didn't join in that discussion.

There was another situation on the political threads where someone challenged an assertion by a sycophant by posting a Lazaris quote that directly contradicted the sycophant's point. This person was pounced on and told they didn't understand what Lazaris meant. I had heard tha same quote - on the 1999 tape - and completely agreed with the person quoting it. I thought the quote was very straighforward and couldn't understand how anyone could read anything else into it. The next day, Peny posted, claiming that she had asked Lazaris directly to clarify and that Lazaris told her the Orlando Gangs' interpretation was the correct one. This, of course, caused me to doubt not only Peny's integrity, but Jach's, since he would have to be a part of this, if only by omission - he would know whether or not Peny truly consulted with Lazaris.

And no, I wasn't so lacking in confidence that I thought I may have misunderstood the quote. But that's one of the many reasons that this type of fraud is so wicked - when trying to reconcile a lie like this, something must give - either one's own self-trust or the trust placed in the "entity".

I understand what you are saying about us having a bone to pick and I don't take offence. I certainly do have a bone to pick. Not that I want to punish the Orlando Gang, but that I have anger and have an interest in having an honest discussion about Lazaris and Concept: Synergy. People can question my motivation all I want, but whether my motivation is noble or not, the facts speak for themselves. I was a very loyal and dedicated student of the Lazaris material. I didn't wake up one day in "negative ego" and decide to throw a monkey wench into it. If not for the Orlando Gang's - and particularly Peny's - behavior, I'd still be a "friend of Lazaris". So I thank them for being so outrageous that I couldn't continue to rationalize - I didn't listen to the whispers, but I did listen to the shouts.

Thanks so much for your support. I wish you well in your process. There is a lot of support available, whether or not Lazaris is a part of it.

I found your post on the negative ego well written and your thoughts on it rang true for me.

I think one of the "convenient" things about defining the ego as something totally separate from us, except as a deliverer of info, and the negative ego as our enemy who always lies, is that once you declare someone to be in their negative ego, you dehumanize them and makes attacking that person okay.

In the Forum it's almost like marking someone with red paint or throwing the scent of death on a person - you are suddenly beseiged and under attack from all sides. Being declared you're in negative ego, especially by Peny or her closest comrades, marks you fair target and no one has to admit they're attacking a human being or take responsibility for their impact on you.

It's a negative ego they're thrashing, your negative ego, not a person, and it only seems like they're attacking you because you're in negative ego. You don't want to get hurt? Get out of your negative ego...don't you know they're all doing you a favor by making it uncomfortable to be in your negative ego so you'll leave it????

And how are you supposed to leave? By getting back in line...apologize, admit you're wrong, apologize, admit your negative impact on Peny, everyone who posted to you - individually, one by one, apologize, spell out exactly how hurtful, thoughtless, hostile, etcetera you were, apologize, thank them for setting you straight, apologize, thank them for their love and...oh, did I mention apologize?

Grovel anyone?

And Lazaris' definition of negative ego is what's used to give others in the Forum the right to rip human hearts and lives apart "for their own good."

Although, in one thread, I witnessed something bizzare. One new poster made a horrible mistake of suggesting Forum posters be more compassionate in their responses to other people. Well, immediately she got grilled by a number of angry posters. She came back to respond with one blanket apology to all, and a further explanation that it was not her intention to tell them how to do the Forum when they had so much more experience and reasserted that she just thought a little more compassion would be nicer - no offense intended.

Now, tell me, Ted and Katie, am I right, but based on your experience, in any other circumstance wouldn't that have only elicited the further ire of the Forum gang? From what I observed, your intention doesn't mean squat - it's your alleged impact on others.

What happened next was so erie. Peny posted in response, and accepted her apology with a little retort she didn't know why this person didn't consider her words first, and that was it. Anyone who knows the Forum and has witnessed the dynamics in there and the thrashings know that that kind of blanket apology with the attempt to justify your post by explaining what your intention was or wasn't, would never, never be accepted. Normally, a whole host of posters would have descended upon this person for that poor excuse of "accepting responsibility"!

But this one time, Peny said okay. And NOT ONE person came back to say that it wasn't okay and demand a greater accountability or personal apology to each poster or anything as they had done in every other situation of which I am aware of...and I've been there for years. The thread ended with no further response or comment...just dead silence.

That's when I realized the incredible power Peny has. With one post she can call off the attack. And that's also when I realized just how much responsibiilty she has for the abuse that occurs in the Forum and how much of it she actively permits and allows.

This one got lucky. But another poster on another subject got ten threads worth of butt kicking...and no amount of apology, blanket or personal, explaining, inner soul searching, nothing could save that person's hide.

Just one word...thumbs up or thumbs down, and the lions are released or detained.

It's scarey, but that's the way it is...and you never know when it's going to happen or how consistent the Forum "rules" will be enforced.

If a negative ego according to Lazaris' definition - an aspect being given more credit, more responsibility, more power than it was ever meant to have, and therefore bitter, vengeful and deceptive - ran the Forum, it would be run just like that.

Welcome and thank you so much for telling this story. I am sick beyond words, these are people I know, love and care about.

Is there a word rotten and filthy enough to address this tactic used by Jachass, Jach the Mind Ripper, Jaczaris? Who is this foul monster?

What is more sacred than the love of a mother for her child? I know these people, I know the incredible love they both have, and share. How dare that cheap side show hustler play this punishing manipulative game? In the name of love, he plays this game. For money and glory he perpetrates this foul scam.

This is punishment and manipulation, plain and simple. To give Peny her vindication Jach would stoop to this?

Thank you for your kind words about us, our little group of fellow travelers who met up during the Millennium Intensive. We were in love, with Lazaris, and with each other, and with the promise and faith we had in our futures as Magicians and Map Makers. To hell with those who found us to be silly or adolescent. We were believers, strong and true, and this is where our belief brought us, into a sense of comraderie, support, commitment, and caring for each other. Our desire was to take the energy of the Intensive back with us, build on it, and support each other in our mutual growth. For that we were trashed, insulted, and worst of all, manipulated to be turned against each other.

Can anyone imagine the pain and confusion we all felt? Loyalties were put on the rack, our love and caring for each other was degraded and demeaned, our joy was ridiculed.

Can anyone imagine the pain of this mother, to have her daugher publicly manipulated and turned against her? Why? Because she didn't cave in to the Forum? Because she didn't denounce her friends as she was being pressured to do? This woman is the essence of loyalty. She is an honorable person, a loyal friend and a loving mother. Damn those contemptuous bastards straight to hell, Jach and Peny, who wouldn't know love if it smacked them in the face.

And the daughter, the sweet, sincere and innocent one, whose faith and belief is being ruthlessly exploited, I pray for her and send my unwavering love. She is forever in my heart.

Thank you so much for noticing and understanding. That means so much to me.

And, thank you more for coming to the defense of this mother and her daughter, two beautiful people with hearts full of love, and nothing but a desire for the highest and best in life.

That those two bit, low lifed, unconscionable hustlers could exploit people like this makes me sick and angry beyond words. And for what? For money..glory...adulation? What price the love and respect of a daughter for her mother? And there is love and respect there.

This use of Magic Time has been bothering me greatly for awhile now. Is this example litigatable?

What price is Jach willing to extract from true believers in his continued quest to vindicate and prop up that huge piece of dirt he married?

This just tops everything. I have to stop writing.

Love and gratitude to you Wiser Crone, thanks for telling this story.

Katie

Thank you very much for writing and please allow me to clarify a couple of things as I want to be as completely clear and fair as I can be.

I took notes, planning to give them to the woman but stopped short when Lazaris' suggestions didn't feel right.

You wrote: "Look this is just reviling. Her thinking was wrong? What are they now the friggin moonies?? Whats next "assigned families"?

He might have well opened this womans chest with a rusty knife, it would have been more kind."

The girl had been talking about struggle and Lazaris said that she was struggling because she wanted to make her mother right; that her mother's thinking was all wrong and that she should distance herself from her. The expression on this young woman's face broke my heart and I could feel her shock and pain.
To me there was a belittling tone in Lazaris' voice. Even I was shocked.

You wrote: "Just for clarification as I can hardly believe my eyes, you are saying that Jachzaris actually told this woman to distance herself from her mother because her thinking was wrong based on the forum incident? He then went on to speak derisively to the young woman about herself?
Were there any dire projections of what her life would be like if she didnt dump her mother?"

It's my "sense" that he took this opportunity to say this as it was cruel and unexpected, which led me to feel that it had to do with what happened in the forum. That feeling was very potent, not only to me. The forum incident was not actually stated, but the answer seemed exaggerated and unnecessary. I've heard Lazaris say similar things to others but this was odd because he knew the mother and what happened in the forum and there seemed to me to be a little extra oomph to the answer. He also suggested that if she didn't distance herself from her mother, she would have a lifetime of struggle as her mother's thinking was wrong. Also, something about did she want to have that on her gravestone.

It was odd. And it's a nagging feeling I've had ever since.

I was a member of the forum, too, and I read a few posts that encouraged severing family ties. In fact, some were praised for doing it. I know that there indeed are some family ties that should be severed, but my take on this one was that it was not one of those abusive situations.

You wrote: "I went to an intensive in September, the first one I attended in a few years. I didn't notice anything strange in the way Lazaris talked to people then.. but I was
franticly trying to not notice a great many things"

If I hadn't met these people and if I didn't see what happened in Forum Storm, I would have still felt some discomfort with the "magical answer" but would have accepted that something was wrong with this mother/daughter relationship, as there is always something "wrong" in any mother/daughter relationship. It's being aware of what happened in the forum and knowing that they were known by "Lazaris" that made me stop and think. Odd.

Why would a loving "Lazaris" humiliate and denounce this way? If the mother was there it might not have seemed so profoundly deceptive and opportunistic.

You wrote: "I think what we must be dealing with here is a progressive pyschosis that is now utterly pathological. The desire to hurt and destroy we have seen in the forum repeatedly [ I was a member until two days ago] is obviously just the tip of a very ugly black berg of ice."

I have to agree with you. And this, too, is sad. You are also right in that it doesn't feel great to write about this at all. I also hope that others will feel comfortable "enough" to write.

With love,

Wiser Crone (wiser?) (sadder) (angrier)

I like what you said about "proportion." You wrote, "One of the most distressing and sadly comical aspects of the Forum and those angerpods that run it is that they have no sense of proportion, every minor manipulation is addressed as a major assault."

That is so true. In fact not even a "minor manipulation" is necessary. Just a different point of view, or a comment that can be twisted into the most negative interpretation possible. Forget any dialogue to get clear on meaning. You're already toast.

This out of proportion reaction is obviously controlling. "Lazaris" is not the only one to make the connection between fear and the need to control. The forum is running on fear, starting with Peny and the Jachel's fear that,"all things hidden will be revealed" (a biblical quote I read in the paper this morning).

You said, "In the beginning of my forum days, I used to laugh when I would read some of this shit. Someone would do the most innocous thing and another would write back "You hurt me!! take responsibility!" and the gang would jump in with their deconstruction. It was predictable and only hysterically funny until you saw the bloodied mess on the floor after they were done."

Aside from knowing first hand how shattering that "deconstuction" can be (I use shattering, and I mean shattering internally), forum members yelling about "hurt and responsibility" never cop to their own martyr, blame, or their responsibility for letting in the reality of being targeted by the supposed offender. Instead there is an immediate rush to domination (remind me of a certain fish swimming in these parts). You'd think that "Lazaris's" pal, Peny, would be exemplifying "dominion" par excellence. No, domination is her shtick. So there's lots of fear there. The kind of fear that points to weakness. Good to remember, because this woman's intent is to project an image of power. But she is not a powerful person. The only power she has is what people give up to her under the deceitful illusion that she is L's special starlet.

Another thing Jeremiah. You refer to the "old Lazaris" as if he was somehow lost to a later version. I just think he was more careful, and more into his act. Now Jach is bolder. A lot of people have been so "hooked" for so long, he's not nervous about being sloppy. Look how easy it is to quash dissent on the forum. I think it's important to remember that it was the "old L" who seduced us into this confidence game.

Also, about 10 years ago,I witnessed a mother and daughter, I know personally, together during "magic time"."Lazaris" told the daughter that her mother was a "bitch" in reference to some childhood events. I thought that was unnecessarily harsh no matter what the mother had done. But since it was coming from Lazaris I assumed he had good reason to speak to the daughter that way. He got away with a lot because of the trust and authority given to him.

Your posts usually stimulate a lot of thought for me.

Lorca

Cheers to you, Katie, for letting everyone know what really inspired you and Ted to create this site. I'm sure that for the many lurkers, they've assumed it is for "revenge?" I'm sure as hell that's what C:S wants them to believe. Now, just as hopefully they will at least "consider"(if they read that far) that this is a positive step in the healing process of having been so "abused and character assassinated" in the forum that we all knew and loved because we believed it brought us closer to Lazaris, but is where we trashed and twisted our own souls in trying to "agree" that we were the pieces of crap "they," (the gang) clearly insinuated that we were.

This I find is a place to release the hurt and anger from the many "kicks in the head" to the many sincere, loving people who wrote vulnerably and honestly in that forum, and who now write here. Boy, when someone was down, they kicked harder and harder..it was bloody, devastation of human beings and their souls. (Didn't Lazaris refer to Hitler's rampage as "Negative ego run rampant?" Maybe the gas chambers were more humane? :-( ) At any rate, this demolition was done out of "love" and "respectfully" according to the ones who did it!!! Yeah, just like the Inquisition was done in the name of the Lord and all that is good. Pathetic!!!!

One thing that I dont' think has been stated strongly enough is that "Each and Every One of Us "here" LOVED LAZARIS with our WHOLE hearts!!!!!!!!!!" Get THAT through your heads, Lurkers!!!!!!!!

Though some lurking may not agree with what has been said or the way it's been said, they'd do well for themselves to remember that we loved just as strongly as they do now and realize that this is a release of the anger that IS equal to the love and trust we all felt. I agree with all who have written but right now Jeremiah comes to mind...the RAGE is justified...Also, the RAGE is painful...you lurkers who think this is a game of jealousy, envy, and rage coming out as revenge, Think Again if you have the nerve.

YEP, it's ugly isn't it? Well, I know first-hand the ugliness of being character assassinated in that forum, insulted, abused, ridiculed, ha..ridiculed in the third person right in front of loved ones and how I foolishly tried to make "them" right, because they knew Lazaris, and I didn't want to offend Lazaris by offending those so close to him. Oh my f...ing word! I also didn't want to put out that negativity in a forum of his name.(martyr, martyr, martyr..LOL) But love was its' bottom line, because I firmly believed that Lazaris had his energy in that forum. And remember, I LOVED Lazaris with every part of my being.......

I'm not saying I was right in how I handled my own situation, but I damn well didn't deserve to be treated like that, and No One ever did!!!

Any negative energy the lurkers may feel reading here should know that it is the release of that UGLY, NEGATIVE PAIN.....that's the negativity you feel, People, because you know that those who have written here are telling the truth. You owe it to yourselves to read, remember, and make your own decision based on your own observations, experiences, knowledge, and inner knowing. Some things cannot be denied any longer nor can they continue to be twisted to the way we would like them to be.

Peny and Jach and the others are not poor things and are strong enough in their own egos to "get as good as they gave."

The forum does indeed use "cult methods." Maybe the main method is convincing you that you're never good enough...maybe it's putting out the fear that you better never question the leader...Katie and Ted had the audacity to question Peny and forced her to "sit at her computer with tears running down her face because she didn't know that Katie hated her so much"....what manipulation and BS!!! If you were there, you know what I'm talking about. What a sick, pathetic, manipulative joke that was........just one "cult tactic" my friends.

And look at what questioning did for them...they were sorely character assassinated and now you can't even find the many threads to see for yourself that Katie may have written all of "five" posts to Peny that were answered by "many." Another sick, pathetic, manipulative joke "cult tactic"...

Katie, you and Ted have put yourselves on the line with this space, never being sure where it would lead or what adversities you might encounter because of it. I KNOW what you and Ted went through...I KNOW the many tears you both shed.....Bless you, dear Friends, for your courage and integrity...I love you very, very much.

Marilyn

Welcome, its very good to see you posting.

you wrote:

[[Peny declared "war" after Katie asked her to "stick to the facts." "Shields up!" she warned those reading. My God, what panic seemed to arise after that...every five minutes there were five, maybe ten new posts, mostly from the "gang" demeaning Katie and Ted, but also from others who love Lazaris so]]

Wasn't that ridiculous?? Peny and I were emailing each other privately during that time almost every day. When she wrote that post about "shields up", I just about fell over laughing.

I even sent her an email saying :"Whats up with you and the shields?..what? are you on f*ucking star trek? ? sounds over the top"

I meant it to joke her out of talking like a complete lunatic and she wrote back talking about how if I knew all the evil plots Ted and Katie had against her, I wouldn't think it was over the top. I am starting to think she is genuinely deluded, of course thats just my opinion.

She even told me she had a "spy".. how pathetic is that?

you wrote:

[[Though some lurking may not agree with what has been said or the way it's been said, they'd do well for themselves to remember that we loved just as strongly as they do now and realize that this is a release of the anger that IS equal to the love and trust we all felt. I agree with all who have written but right now Jeremiah comes to mind...the RAGE is justified...Also, the RAGE is painful...you lurkers who think this is a game of jealousy, envy, and rage coming out as revenge, Think Again if you have the nerve.]]

Yeah the rage is justified and appropriate.

I have been very critical of Jach and Peny in my opinions about them and that may ruffle some people but lets remember Jach Peny Lazaris and Michaell North are people who are public figures, quite famous and they have made extravagent claims about themselves and their abilities.

Considering the wreckage this tawdry bunch has left in their wake, it astounds me anyone would leap to their defense even instinctively. But I did it myself so I know that it happens and I understand how it happens.

Another thing about that sheild comment of Penys. I remember telling her that it didn't make sense to give a whole lot of credence to what Katie and Ted might be doing because as Lazaris always taught "Negativity is weak"

She never responded to that.

Cheers,

thank you for this message board. I love it.

I'd like to share my perspective of Lazaris and the forum with you. A quick introduction: I'm Claus, from Germany (so please forgive my not so perfect English....). I heard about Lazaris when I looked for information in the CompuServe New Age forum about five years ago. And there they were: Peny, Jach, Michaele... and a lot of seemingly joyful people. I quickly learned about Lazaris and I thought that his material would be an interesting addition for the Seth stuff I had been reading for years. I ordered tapes (lots of them, over the years...) and I enjoyed them. What a loving entitiy, this Lazaris! That was my impression. Of course I was curious about the people behind Lazaris: Jach and Peny et al. Friendly people, encouraging free flowing discussion. So I thought. A warm, cozy and safe place. I was sucked in quickly, shared beliefs, private stories, anecdotes.

But soon I discovered some things that bothered me: That right-wing talk, bizarre theories about Clinton as a murderer, conspiracy theories about a certain TWA flight. Weird stuff. But I kept open-minded: May be there is a little bit of truth in that theories? May be there is something to learn? And what would other, more liberal people in the forum say about it? I exspected great political and spiritual discussions.

But these discussions were never encouraged.

Some people with other, "liberal" opinions were ignored, humiliated, ridiculed - including me. There was one poster from the inner circle of Peny's friends sending me on guilt trips - more than once. I always quickly apologized. After all, I didn't want to hurt someone's feelings. And I felt like someone who hasn't learned "the rules" yet. So I began censoring my feelings, doubts and postings.

I learned them quickly.

The rules: Everything that was not written in a certain manner - if Jach was not praised and thanked enough, if someone doubted the spirituality of supporting the death penalty and so on - everything was almost instantly attacked by faithful Lazarians.

Peny and Jach themselves never attacked me. In direct conversations, they in fact were friendly to me. But I was witness of Lazarians bashing people who didn't belong to "them". They were quick defending Peny against all questions and doubts that were not so comfortable - e.g. valid questions about why the Lazaris cassettes and seminars are so expensive. The funny thing is: Peny avoided an direct answer and *I* stepped forward to defend Peny and methods of making money. I guess I just wanted to gain her respect. I made myself very small by doing this.

I will post more another time. That should be enough for the beginning...

Claus

The forum is another area of misrepresentation. It is portrayed as a "safe" place for people who follow the "Lazaris" Material to interact. The ideas discussed and the the viscious oppression conflict with the love, peace, freedom etc. espoused on tapes and at seminars. Unlike the "Lazaris" tape on Honesty -- "it is safe to be honest" he repeats, the forum is a dangerous place for honesty. Peny and Jach are lucky that some already depressed or otherwise unstable person has not gone over the edge or attempted suicide.

Gross misrepresentation abounds in every area of involvement with these creeps. I would never have entered the forum if they had presented what was really occuring there. Can you imagine paying to be a member of:

1.You must never, ever unintentionally or ever so slightly offend Peny, Jach or their little rat pack.

2. You must always agree with Peny, Jach and their kiss ass chums.

3.You must be prepared to retract any statement you make at any time for no damn good reason.

4. You must be prepared to grovel interminably at a moment's notice.

5. You must accept that being emotionally and spirituality battered and gang banged is good for you, even necessary for your growth.

6. You must participate in beating people down even when it violates how you really feel.

7. You must conform to the Right Wing politics.

A. You must vilify the politically
"incorrect" ideas.
B. You must slam any person who expresses
ideas that diverge from pukey Rush
Limburger.

Hope that covers it. How about signing up for the Inquisiton? Lots of privacy there. I know we have to do what is necessary to protect this web site, but they sure didn't hold up their end.

Love, Jade

[[ CompuServe forum to the Internet site I was criticized that I was not grateful enough to Jach because I made a remark about the disadvantages of the new forum. Three or four hysterical women wrote "Me-Too" posts.]]

Those "me too posts" were enough entertainment to warrant the 5 bucks a month. You could just about set your watch by their reactions.

I used to call them "The gab-more" sisters because they reminded me of the Gabor sisters from television. Remember them? you could never tell them apart but they were always on some television show being mistaken for one another sounding the same, looking the same, saying the same ridiculous things.

They are such ass kissing morons. I remember one of the gang girls blurted proudly that if Lazaris said something she would accept it without question.

[[Then Jach thanked them for their support, ignoring me and my remarks.]]

I think Jach is totally whipped.

[[Because then I made up my mind and thought: "What the f***! They treat me like shit and I want to apologize to these boring people who don't listen and talk behind my back and lie about me?"]]

YES

Jeremiah

I found this site between Xmas and New Year (not a nice chrissy present I thought at
the time) yet maybe after all it may be the best New Years present I ever received.

I came across it from a search for Peny North - what really possessed me to do this I'll
never know but I do know that I hadn't felt happy for the basically entire 3yrs of being
a Forum member.

The first month was full of excitement and I started to communicate with others by email and posted a couple of times and I also ended up making a friend and we kept in contact regularly as she was a newbie poster too.

What started to add to the slight uneasiness I was already having from listening to
some tapes and videos was a reaction she received by Jach both on the site and by
private email (in answer to her one) for committing the sin of not quoting Lazaris
correctly in her post, she was devastated and so was I and I never posted again even
though she did for a short time after - and eventually we gradually drew away from
each other.

I became a lurker - a dissillusioned lurker as I seemed to be constantly witnessing the hierachy pull someone down over and over again. I became frustrated with searching out subjects of interest as after the few first initial posts the topic usually ended up escalating into a 'bashing' as someone had misquoted or had a 'tone' to their posts which weren't acceptable etc. etc.

I began to question myself - thinking I must be in my child, adolescent, martyr or victim etc. as I didn't get why they did these things so therefore something must be wrong with me!! Do some more processing, get some more tapes etc.etc. I wasn't feeling buoyed by it anymore, I slowly began to doubt myself again.

I also began to feel despondent when posters were bought into line whereby they offered their sincerest apologies and admitted they were in negative ego etc. I use to feel sick and think 'Oh well, they've got to them too!!' I constantly tried to figure it
out why it was not OK to speak about what you believed in without being judged all the time - everyone makes mistakes, so why was it so bad to misquote Lazaris - we all hear what we need to hear at the time don't we?? Why couldn't they be more compassionate in their responses!!

I remember Peny discussing the Conversations
with God in the Forum. She said something about the masses being light years away
from absorbing metaphysics and quite dense about it as well - that stung as it made me feel like I was never going to get there especially since I never understood some of the content of the material anyway.

I've been working with the 'Lazaris Material' for approx. 10 years and will agree that
some of it helped me immensely at the time I was working with it especially as I was
moving on from having Hypnotherapy (for 3 years) with a Licenced Therapist - this is
one of the reasons I hooked into it so well as it was exactly like my sessions with my
healer - the same type meditations etc. so I felt quite safe in this environment.

My background is one of physical & mental abuse backed up by a constant reminder what
a loving close family we were so the antics of the Forum don't sit well with me and I
really 'Feel' something is wrong here.

At times I fear taking control and have done alot of work on this so I am speaking out
once again to support Ted & Katie in what they are doing. I have said in an earlier
post that I don't necessarily agree with all that is said here (and I don't expect to) but it does make me stop and re-evaluate my perspectives on things etc.

I must say though that even though I nervously giggle about some of the names given to Jach, Peny, Lazaris & C/S I don't truly feel happy about that as it reminds me of my childhood and I do wonder if that is a positive way to support this site.

I am a member of this site because I have 'felt' for a long time that something is wrong in 'The Forum' and because I have been learning to heal myself over these past few
years from abusive relationships I refuse to become active in one again therefore I
have also cancelled my Forum Membership.

BTW I have been having counselling these past 2 years as well which has helped me to also 'Listen to the Whispers' and recognise controlling relationships.

I believe it takes alot of courage to do what Ted & Katie have done in regards to setting up this site and even though I've been torn at times and saddened by is 'Lazaris a Friend or Fraud' it has helped me to become even more discerning in my search toward my spiritual growth. I would like to give them a great big hug and 'Thank-you' both once again as this site has been another step for me in validating myself.

With Love
Rose
aka Demelza

I think I know the post to which you are referring. I don't believe he was a gang member, but except for the most apparent ones, I'm not all that familiar with who fell within that circle or were on-the-periphery-wanna-be's. His post was on the ten threads frying the woman for questioning Jach's decision to no longer hold seminars on the west coast and cancel the remaining ones scheduled at the last minute.

For those still members of the Forum it's "Major Changes in the Workshop Schedule (9) (43 messages)" starting in August 2000, and if there's not at least 43 messages on that thread then some have been deleted/censored. Happens you know.

I know this post well because I was absolutely totally blown away by it. It was a real eye opener for me because Peny had responded to it as well, and it was finally discovering these threads and this last "cherry on the top" portion of it that pushed me to seek out Katie and Ted's website.

Let me give you a paraphrase of what transpired.

The poster started out by writing three or four paragraphs thanking everyone for so "lovingly participating" in this thread (frying this woman), and of course, profusely supporting and congratulating Jach for his "self empowering" decision and expressed he was filled with "tears of joy" for all Jach had given to him and others.

After several paragraphs of this, he turned to Peny, and it was here that he referred to his own narcissism that, as he conveyed, always seemed to get in the way of his seeing Peny's capacity to give and to love. This poster said he felt remorse for the judgments he had privately held about her just so that he could protect his "enormously arrogant ego" and that he was deeply sorry for that.

He did NOT express what those judgments were, but simply that he had had some - as in previously and not any longer.

He went on to say that with his ego now in its "proper place" he now had the humility to admit that she was indeed more than him And went on to state that previously that was only something he had reserved for those such as his Higher Self and Lazaris, that he had no problem with that but not with another human.

The poster went on to celebrate this new realization as a "liberating experience" for him to admit this...but he didn't stop there! He also expressed that this truth extended to many others namely Peny's "Handmaiden" and "Sparrow" - just to name two. And he proceeded to claim that by doing this he was now able to allow the love and wisdom that so many had expressed there in the Forum.

He basically ended his post extolling the virtues of expressing anger in the spiritual way he learned in the forum, and that by disapproving of the method he realized it made him feel better than, and he went on to make self flagellating comments about his martyr and co dependency - with his negative ego, no less.

Well, the next day - (with no responses for over 24 hours - is that unusual? - just an eerie dead silence) - this poster suddenly posts an apology to Peny and everyone else who might have been negatively impacted for including his "processing" (???) on how he previously felt about Peny or anyone else. He stated that it was childish and manipulative and that he could have made his points without including that.

Two other gangsters then piped in and expressed how hurt they were - one was so mad she said all she could do was stare at her computer screen when she tried to write!

Oh, but it gets better

Then some poor good faith person scratches his head and says "huh?" Why the apology? All the first poster said was that he had previously held negative judgments about Peny but he was apologizing for it and owing it all to his narcissism. What was the wrong in that? He didn't see this guy as rude or childish as the gangsters stated he was, or as he confessed he was. In fact, he saw him as vulnerable and "potentially valuable" to others who could identify with him.

Now, understand that the original post never actually expressed any specific criticism about Peny or any gangster, and in fact, mentioned it only in the context of remorse and admitting that they now realized that she, as well as the other gangsters, were actually "more than" the poster - right in the same category as Lazaris and Higher Self…at least in the same room if not same level.

WELL, guess what? The proverbial ax fell right over this person's neck that he so innocently stuck out.

Peny jumps in and asks him how would he like it if someone wrote that they used to think he was a real jerk, a bullshit artist who always tried to make people wrong and looking for trouble or a fight, but they didn't think that way anymore.

(He never said those things about her...why would she pick those descriptions??? Strike a nerve maybe?)

She asked what good does that do and asserted that it was a way to slam another person leaving them with no place to respond.

No place to respond????

That was her position. (Ummm, no mention about the validity or wisdom of seeing her as being "more than")

She asserted the original poster stated what he did out of his own personal agenda and others merely shared the impact of that with him.

The good faith poster didn't see the correlation and stated so.

He had no idea…

The floodgates opened. Numerous posts later and another thread, the 10th and last thread for the Major Forum Changes threads - after much indignation and repeated accusations of manipulation, being childish and self centered himself, as well as deeply arrogant and hostile and attempting to pick a fight with Peny, the good faith poster suddenly saw the light and apologized, apologized, apologized for how his speaking up was all a "big negative ego rampage" on his part. Actually, he apologized twice - the first one wasn't good enough and they certainly let him know and why.

He submitted to the Forum's assertion that this was a sneaky roundabout way of dumping on poor Peny and the Forum, and he apologized for the impact he had on others and dutifully listed his "crimes" that ranged from control, distraction, arrogance, hostility, excusing, blaming, and self centeredness.

Please note, not once did anyone EVER take exception that Peny or any of the gangsters were more than anyone else in the Forum nor was it mentioned or discussed at all. Perhaps this was seen as an obvious truth - like of course there's oxygen on this planet.

What the egregious crime was was that the first poster dared to mention that he had once upon a time - when he was less evolved and totally steeped in narcissism and better than's - held a few negative judgments about Peny. AND that someone had the gall to say what was wrong with expressing that after a mysteriously quiet 24 hours the original poster came back and said "I'm So SOOOOOOOORRY!!!!"

…oh, and by the way, after good faith poster had dutifully apologized and thanked everyone for their beauty, wisdom whatever, only one non gangster person replied with acceptance. No one else, not one person that was so hurt by this negative impact including Peny made any acknowledgement to him. And the threads ended.

So that's my knowledge of the situation. I don't know about Melon who when she read the first post was so angry all she could do was sit and stare at the computer screen, but I do know that when I read this…and after reading the previous 8 onto 9 threads of ripping this woman apart for expressing anything other than congratulatory sentiments to Jach, I know I sat and stared at the screen for a good long time…

And then I found this place.

So, Jeremiah, is that the incident you were talking about? Or are there other posts you were thinking about concerning Peny being "more than"?

Love,
Demian,
DreamSinger

Thank you so much for writing! I remember the posts in question very well, Ted and I have discussed that thread several times since our departure from the Forum.

If you don't mind, I'd like to refresh the minds of those reading along, or fill in for those who weren't in the Forum at the time.

You had the audacity to make the statement that the Spiritual Journey book contained the full wisdom of Lazaris, and that it stands on it's own as the full embodiment of the Lazaris material. Am I remembering that correctly? You had the nerve to share an independent thought, one which of course, could have been taken as a threat to the business should anyone take it to heart and stop buying tapes and attending seminars. As I also recall, you were thoroughly trashed for not attending enough seminars.

I also recall that your post was in response to a very nasty one written by Peny's cyber lover, the renowned crystal expert who was later trashed and denounced by Peny, the momentous event which started Forum Storm.

I know how incredibly painful that situation was for you, it was painful, confusing, and soul wrenching to witness. Looking back, I'm still in shock that no one, not me, Ted, no one reacted appropriately to what was going on there. That is powerful ether they are pumping into that Forum.

What I think happened is that Peny and Lover got into one of their famous bitch sessions about the poster who was originally trashed for asking a question, then you attempted to
provide some support for him, and the games began. You, my good friend, made the mistake of getting in the way of the psychopathic hate machine that Peny has been running on high steam for many years now. You didn't have a chance! How dare you try to mitigate the spiteful hateful words which were provided as balm to the unfathomable, unquenchable foul ego of that sick sick woman? You unwittingly stepped into the sacrificial circle where one was being slaughtered up as sacrifice to the Anti-Goddess, and in doing so, you became the sacrifice yourself. That little bugger who you tried to help is still a smug believer who refers to this site as "bad energy".

As I recall, the usual players all stepped in and took their jabs. You were not going to get away without bloodshed, and the regulars were right there with their finely honed weapons of torture. They all know their roles very well, and seem to have a profound sense of enjoyment over participating in these slaughters of the innocents.

I fully agree with you that it is ludicrous for Jach to have accused you of insulting Lazaris. The way those vile asses go on, you would think that their precious Orb is some kind of supersensitive, paranoid ass, in need of protection and defense. Some helpful strong being they have provided us with.

Your story is so demonstrative to me of the fact that even the protection of the Bright Orb myth is less important to to those lowlifes than Peny's insatiable thirst for blood. When she gets thirsty, look out, there are no boundaries, logic and reason fly out the window.

Another very revealing and interesting aspect of this thread, viewed in hindsight, is that here we have an example of how the sycophants defended and supported Peny's keyboard Romeo. It was his behavior that inspired you to write, the very same behavior that a few months later was offered up as evidence of the "co-dependence" of ALL Forum members with this pampered co-Queen of Peny's. Where was all their later stated passive acceptance of "our" co-dependence with him? Screw them, they jumped in like a pack of rabid dogs to support his foul bullying in the name of "honesty" and "love".

Peny once stated in the Forum in reference to us here that "some of us have long memories". It would seem that in fact they have very selective memories. My belief is that the only thing those trained attack animals have a memory for is the taste of blood. Once the pampered monkey keyboard lover boy bared his fangs to his keeper, all memory of his encouraged, defended, free reign of terror against Forum members flew right out the window. And that coward has disappeared now, never to take any responsibility for his years of feeding that huge monster thing it Orlando.

Can you tell that your post has opened some of my wounds? It has, and I'm very happy to allow for some more of the venom to be released from my system.

I hope your wounds are releasing the poison as well Lynn, and I thank you greatly for providing the opportunity for me and others to honor the intensity of the poison which flows from the fangs of those cobras, and to know that these wounds do need tending and attention to be sure all the venom is cleared and gone.

We all were bitten by some very foul and ugly snakes in the service of one very sick human being.

I look forward to hearing more of what you have to say. It is a great service that you have written here, and it is much appreciated.

Thanks for writing.

quote:

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Anyway, I jumped right in and started asking general questions I had about spirituality. I had no experience posting and aside from worrying about sounding stupid or that no one would reply to me, I had no concerns about what I said being "appropriate". The usual - Jach, et.al. responded immediately to my questions and I was delighted. Not Jach, but the others could be very blunt but no one was unkind. I was still studying various sources at the time and brought them into the discussion and I do remember feeling they were dismantled and I was shown how Lazaris was a superior source. But I accepted all that because these people had studied Lazaris much longer than I and I thought knew so much more than I did.

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I had the same experience when I first joined the forum. I think many of us were excited about being able to discuss the material with others who had been working with it. I know I certainly was.

Prior to my involvement with the forum I had never had personal conact with Jach and Peny and didn't even know the "gang" existed.

I also had no knowledge of what went on in the Compuserve forum [only that it had existed] and I really thought this was going to be an exciting thing.

One of the reasons I try to put time into posting on this board is that I wrote so much on the Jach and Lazaris forum from its inception in '96 until I quit this past January of 2001.

I feel a certain amount of responsiblity for having put so much out there on that forum and for not having jumped in during the numerous burnings and slashings that I witnessed.

I dont use my real name on this board and I have my reasons for that. At least I can put my thoughts out there and people can take it or leave it.

In a way, I feel my silence on the J&L board was tacit participation in the cruelty and I hope that by writing here I can balance some of that out.

I feel this because I was so actively participating in other discussions that when I didn't offer an opinion it might have looked like I agreed.

To my amazement, I heard that someone referred to me as being "one of them" in a conversation a few months ago and that really brought home to me how perceptions can be created, falsely in this case as I was never a part of their "inner circle".

I rationalized and justified like mad what I saw in the forum. Often refusing to even read a thread after I could see where it was going so as not to have to deal with it.

I almost never wrote in the political threads not only because I hate the gang's politics [which I do] but because I was more interested in discussing the material and how to work with it.

It wasn't so much that I disagreed with them politically, but I found them to be extremely naive, gullable and reactionary in a political sense and I couldn't stand that energy.

Pretty quickly I noticed that Jach was the only CS person interested in discussing the actual material. He seemed eager to talk about it in fact, and he and I had several exchanges through the years.

Peny on the other hand almost never wrote about the material itself but was always gassing about some outrage or another usually of a political nature or talking about crystals or how to be healthy by gobbling pills and lotions.

At the time I tried to convince myself she was past talking about it but it soon became clear she didn't even know much of what Lazaris discussed on tapes and in seminars and she made some comments that would lead anyone to think she didnt get the basics of metaphysics at all.

The rest of the gang had no discernable interest in discussing metaphysics except to attack someone who wasn't showing the proper respect for Lazaris.

It is pretty clear to me the whole dynamic of the gang was to cultivate and express outrage of one form or another as a way to unify them and reduce their own deeper fears of suffering such an attack from Peny. It was a way to curry favor and keep themselves out of the "hotseat"

Of course by the time we met them the gang was well practiced and knew how to avoid Peny's wrath for the most part.

I think the forum really existed to satisfy Peny's appetite for control and power over others. It gave her a focus for all that hostility.

They really did seem to enjoy the carnage. In my view it was because they had such a rocky foundation and no real personal authority.

All of their "power" came from their close proximity to Peny and by implication, Lazaris.

I have written elsewhere that I believe the gangs paranoia and cruelty were simply emblematic of the twisted pyschological power structure they had developed sucking up to Peny.

In many ways I think they were an extension of Peny's psyche, mimicing her style and temperment her for her approval and always deferring to her out of fear of abandonment.

If Peny read a book, they all read the book. If Peny liked something, the Loooved it etc....

In my opinion, the "outsiders" who were attacked in the forum were simply a kind of sick fodder the gang used to cement their relationship with Peny and feed her very real paranoid fantasies about the world outside her "compound" which she rarely left.

The more the gang fed off the "power" they got from their association with Peny the more determined they were to keep it that way.

This is just my view, based on my observations and experiences.

I don't know if it was so much a progression as it was an unfoldment of a dynamic they couldn't hide because they didn't understand it.

I often thought how horrible it must really be down in Orlando because this is the face they show to the world. This was their public face.

God only knows what it was like when the "let their hair down" behind closed doors.

Cheers,

During my own personal Forum Storm (or witch burning as I call it) Peny, Jach and the Gang took issue with something I wrote. It's a long story and I could send you a copy of the thread from the C:S Forum but what it came down to was Jach was angry and was trying to intimidate me into admitting what a lowly creature I was. Unfortunately I buckled under to most of it, taking all the shit on myself. (Yes, yes, I was a terrible, terrible person who is in negative ego, etc. etc.) At one point I don't think that Peny thought she was getting enough blood from me so Jach decide to pull out the big guns. He said and I quote...

"I am really angry that you insulted Lazaris and what he teaches..."

Like I said, this hit me like..."What the?!#@. Lazaris insulted?! Hold it here! How can a Being without an ego be insulted?" That was the end of the disscusion for me.

Well then the rest of the gang jump on the bandwagon and went on and on about how I had insulted Lazaris. I don't have copies of all the letters as it got quite sickening. I even had people writing me personal emails weeks later telling me to get out of negative ego and admit I had insulted Lazaris and his work.

I would love to put a copy of the entire thread up here as an example of someone being trashed in the Forum but I have a feeling it would not be legal.

The latest news from the Holy Forum is of yet another poster becoming the victim of the righteous SMUGNESS machine.

Some poor innocent had the nerve to post her thoughts and feelings, that were not in full alignment with the pronouncements of the "Orb", and in the process failed to present the "politically correct" perspective, and so offended and angered Lazaris, Jach, and all Forum members.

The angry mind police let this person know how terrible and inappropriate her thoughts are, and of course, shamed her into an apology.

At least it appears that the siege ended quickly, at least on the Forum, but those of us here who have been similarly thrashed know that the confusion and hurt don't go away as fast as the threads.

I guess Jach sent out the edict to shut down the discussion, lest he lose even more customers in the wake of another three month orgy of self-rightousness.

What possesses these people to believe that they have the right to judge and damn someone for thinking differently, or seeing things in another way than their own little "consensus"?

We may have our disagreements here, but I never heard anyone suggest that another doesn't have the right to think a certain way, or that they are responsible for the anger of another because of the simple act of expressing a thought, opinion, or belief.

In fact, I can't think of any other group that behaves that way, other than the now all two familiar Fundamentalist Fanatics of the world. Where is all this alleged belief in the spirit of the Constitution they love to go on about?

Why are they so weak and insecure that an honest expression from another causes them so much anger?

I ask the first question rhetorically because I know exactly what possesses them. The student quickly takes on the qualities of the teacher. Lava and Peas!!

Some brave soul, it is said, did speak up to support this poster, evidently telling her that she had every right to "second guess" Lazaris or anyone, which is the crime she was accused of committing.

Bravo to a brave poster, my sympathies and understanding to the newest victim, and my complete disdain for every mind controlled, nasty, SMUG, self-righteous, dehumanized idiot who added to the frey.

Map makers indeed..you should all be ashamed of yourselves.

I know some of you read here, and have sent me your very astute input on the state of my consciousness, so right back at you.

Grow up, and get yourselves to the nearest cult awareness counsellor.

You are menaces in a world that is already far far too full of them.

Grow up "magicians". Take the high road, post your apologies to this woman, or stand up for her right to express herself. Too bad if she doesn't agree with "Lazaris" or the flabby ex-insurance man.

In America we are free to express ourselves, and owe nothing to anyone for doing so.

Bah!

Katie
AATF

This is a Lite Site Alert!! Heads Up Kids!!!

News from the Forum!! A special bonus for non-Forum members. For a small fee you can receive your very own one time only password to the next on-line conference!!!

Yes, Folks, you heard it here, this is a special limited time offer good only for one peek into the wisdom of Jack Purr-Sell, and the next best thing to the pleasures of cyber-sex, a cyber-meditation with the one and only naked Orb!!!

Girls pull out your teddies, boys grab those thongs, let it all hang out while we groove to the soothing asterisks of Lazaris!!!!!

Here's a preview taken from past on-line meditations. Scroll down VERY SLOWLY....let the resonance come through.....

Well, well, well,

Welcome!!

It is a pleeeesure

and a joy

to be with you

**

***

relax

****

*

***

*

we love you

**

***

indeed

*

touch the screen

**

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feel the love

*

***

**

we love you so

***

*

****

make a wish

*

***

***

****

your wish

*

**

*

****

will come true

**

****

*

we love you

***

*

***

Yes, indeed

***

*
*
*
*
We Love You!!

***

*

**

*

etc etc etc..(and the damn mess takes about 20 friggin minutes between asterisks to boot)

It looks as though Jack has come up with a way to evaluate his customer base.

Mark your calendars kids, you know this will be the big one, the one which answers all our questions!! (NOT)

My suggestion? Treat this as an informational fishing expedition!!

Hmmm...interesting.

Any thoughts? Does anyone know what the cost is, or how we get to sign up?