Or how about "Lazaris Abused His Spiritual Authority All Those Years For HIS Own Good!"
That's the theme I'm working with in this post.

Hi Katie, I know I said I wouldn't be writing for a while…ahh but I couldn't resist this one! *Warning* some of these concepts also belong in other threads. Forgive my lack of total thread integrity.

I have three close friends who have always felt very uncomfortable about listening to my Lazaris tapes. I consider these women spiritually on the ball; Great at manifesting and getting to the root of their issues. All without Lazaris! Any time I tried to offer them a tape, they would respectfully take it and then a few days later give it back to me, thanking me for my offer but seldom did they get into talking about the material. They knew I was really into this stuff and they just respectfully let me BE with it. Finally I asked them, "What's up?" One told me she did not have a very good 'feeling' when she listened to it. The feeling of it was 'contractive' to her. Another told me she was O.K. with it, but that was it. The third one, well she was very to the point.
She challenged me by asking…
"So when Lazaris is taking all your negativity and pain during the meditation on the Crisis Tape, what are they doing...eating it or something? I mean do they live on this stuff? Are we a good source of food?" I was stunned! Here I was picturing a being of light and love taking our pain because it couldn't harm them and they had no use for it and all she could see was this creature gobbling up our pain, negativity and shit. She thought they were living off those who gave them permission to go into their brains and souls! Talk about direct access! The question to her was not 'If' Lazaris existed but "Is Lazaris evil?"
This was a number of years ago before I ever encounter the 'Forum' so she did not have any pervious negative experiences with Lazaris or C/S.

This leads me into an interesting area of mind melting thoughts. If Lazaris possibly lived off of pain what about other emotions like guilt? I know the C/S Gang did. And Boy! Have I felt guilty about feeling guilty! Isn't that one of the first negative ego things you should drop? But here I was pouring guilt into the universe and I have to admit the C/S material wasn't helping.
One of the greatest guilt's that I have ever felt is believing that I could have learned the lesson 'another way', as Lazaris says. "You do not have to learn through pain." Ya that's true! But we do! We all do! IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE WHO DOES NOT HAVE PAIN OF SOME SORT IN THEIR LIVES? DO YOU FEEL GUILTY ABOUT IT BECAUSE YOU SHOULD HAVE TAKE THE TIME TO MANIFEST IT DIFFERENTLY?!!!!?

Boy that hurts when you have created a reality that appears to be very difficult to change. I mean why would I have ever created a reality where I gave birth to a child with an incurable disease? Ya, I believe that he can be completely healed but we have yet to find the technique, herb, medicine, energy work, etc. that has worked yet! And using the Lazaris techniques have not worked either. Believe me so many of those techniques have been used in this scene, by so many people it's mind boggling!!! "Ohhh God I should have be able to manifest this differently! Maybe we should work harder, meditate more!" But try doing that when you have been up all night at a hospital worrying about your child. Try to imagine anything different when your child is screaming with pain! I did! and I nearly drove myself crazy. Besides when I get home, I sleep. Forget the meditating! The only visualization I will be doing is imagining what the back of my eye lids look like!
I also came to terms with the concept "Who am I to 'change' this reality?" Maybe there are reasons for his illness that are beyond my understanding and simply way beyond ME! Maybe the best thing that I can do in this situation is to really be present for him and help myself cope with this reality and go through a process of really 'feeling' all this shit instead of meditating it all away. I found myself suppressing my true feelings when I used the Lazaris techniques. I have come to realize it is far healthier for me to feel and I do not seem to be able to do that while thinking of bubbles of light.

And this leads me to you Katie and this may relate to the other thread on Success Stories that Nancy started but I felt it was an appropriate ending to my post here,

Lately you have been talking about the simplicity of making a decision and having it manifest what you want. I too, out of complete necessity (lack of time and energy!) have taken to a very simple way of manifesting. About a year ago I started to pray for resolution. That's it! If I have an issue on my hands I pray for resolution to that issue and with in a very short period of time the process starts and soon after it resolves. Depending on the complexity of the issue, asking for resolution can sometimes stir up all sorts of things that need to be dealt with before it can completely resolve but if I keep that prayer going it works out. Sometimes at lightning speed! I have had more magic come from this one technique than any other techniques put together. I have resolved major problems in my relationship to my ex-husband, my current partner, my mother, brother, sister and even relationships to people I felt were way beyond repair. The healing has been profound! I have manifested income, health, and sanity!

All this with a simple prayer to 'The Powers that Be' and a connection to the higher aspect of me. No intermediary need apply for a job here, thank you.

quote:

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Originally posted by Lynn Daniluk:

"So when Lazaris is taking all your negativity and pain during the meditation on the Crisis Tape, what are they doing...eating it or something? I mean do they live on this stuff? Are we a good source of food?" I was stunned! Here I was picturing a being of light and love taking our pain because it couldn't harm them and they had no use for it and all she could see was this creature gobbling up our pain, negativity and shit. She thought they were living off those who gave them permission to go into their brains and souls! Talk about direct access! The question to her was not 'If' Lazaris existed but "Is Lazaris evil?"
[/B]

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I have over the last few months begun to believe that there is evil behind Lazaris.
I let them in ways, over the 8 years I worked with them, that were very deep inside my soul, my mind, my brain. It is hard to explain the level and how on some levels it was positive but the end result on many levels was negative. Most of their work is "fear based" and they seem to feed off that, if you don't do this or that the sky is going to fall in your reality.

Healthy fear can be good, but they seem to take it to levels that were dangerous to the psyche and frankly abusive. I am having a hard time finding the right words to express the level of entry into my being that I allowed them to enter out of trust, but there were times I woke in the night with their voice inside my head full dialogue about my life and wrong doings so to speak, its was like a split in consciousness where they had taken residence up in me, yes I allowed it but I did under their gesture of offering love and help. In the long run it was not good and I had to fight back to regain that part of my mind and there is still residue and its been 3-4 years since I stopped working with them.

The rub is that they offer help, friendship under the disguise of love and I felt allot of love over the years working with them, but the operative word is "felt love" did not receive love, for by there own definition; (love = is doing certain things so as to produce and provide a state of being. To give as to produce security, pleasure, honesty & vulnerability, trust, intimacy and caring, reduced fear of loss and a state of knowing, also being responsible or responding and respecting.)

If Lazaris did these things they would have had to communicate in a way that involved a two way dialogue not a monologue on our reality and personal path to growth. That they never did and I could not experience that in my private meditations, certainly not that level needed to hold a conversation with them either, maybe that was my limitation, but I came to understand that they were good at making one feel good, or feel love, but they could not demonstrate it in action as I could with another human being by honest two way communication.

So I came to conclude that they used the "feeling of love" to enter our reality, our hearts, mind and souls. To feed off our fear of loss not reduce it and they were very good at it. Is that evil? Webster dictionary defines evil as (morally wrong, bad, wicked, causing pain, ruin, injury, harm) If Webster is right then Lazaris's actions were evil.

Be Well,
Eagles Speak

In the above link -- you'll find a personal favorite of mine: Mark Macy and his non-profit internatonal organization for instrumental spirit transcommunication.

Ouja Boards, Seance, the Oracle at Delphi, JZ Knight and Ramtha The Ram -- and IMO a behaviorally *very* clearly LSD-damaged Jach Purcel -- all absolutely 'spread-legs' for lower astral possession / manipulation.

Note with Ramtha too -- "he" appeared VERY enlightened -- until he began destroying peoples lives after sufficient association.

Just like Lazaris.

Remenber -- in this world only two basic rewards drive domination and control: money and power over people.

On the non-physical planes -- there is no money -- so there is only one Earthly reward remaining for the kind of deadly behavior Lazaris, Ramtha -- and other negative non-physical entities display.

Folks -- it my be high time to admit that Jach -- too -- is being manipulated / controled by a very evil, apparently brilliant -- but clearly *opperatively destructive* lower astral entity.

Apparent mental and social brilliance is NO indicator of spiritual goodness.

Adolph Hitler was thought socially brilliant.

I think you are definitely onto something here, and it triggered an old memory. I have been trying to track down exactly how and when I first got into the material.

I remembered that about 16 years ago a psychic friend of mine cautioned me about Lazaris just as I was getting into the material. He said that Lazaris may say he is a high entity, but he really is a lower astral entity. I wish I had listened.

I think it was Katie who first brought up the idea of the love bomb. That is exactly how I got sucked into the mind control of Lazaris. It was a period of time when I was very lonely and confused. The material filled a gap, or so it seemed.

Thank you so much for reminding me. That is a very big help.

I've said this in a different way on a different thread ("Can't say we didn't warn ya!"), but I think it bears repeating.

On page 47 of "Lazaris, Lazaris Interviews Book I" (Concept: Synergy Publications, 1988), Lazaris states:

"Some lower entities are tricksters. They come through offering some marvelously wonderful insight and you're hooked. Then they start messing up your life, ...".

As with many of his teachings, I find him saying one thing to gain our confidence and then he later contradicts himself.

Audrey said: she was one big rolling PR job eh...
and so was Jachass from hell...

I agree 100%. There "subtle" PR techniques they used were oh so blatant.

I wonder which they enjoy(ed) more: the money or the power?

Going back to Steve's original hypothesis, imagine a lower entity's delight in finding a combination:
1) Drug abused minds (still speculation at this point)
2) Power hungry wife with a flare for personal manipulation and already steeped in metaphysics
3) Power hungry husband with a flare for business manipulation
4) Weird-ass relationship between husband and wife
5) Love and spiritually starved potential audience

Sounds too good to pass up!

Finally, did anyone else ever hear Timothy Leary speak live? The cumulative effect of LSD was impossible to overlook.

Back to the original post...Is Lazaris evil? When I drop to center I feel there is an evilness there amongst other qualities. 'Good' and not so good. The point that angers me is that 'Lazaris' (who ever they are and where ever they come from) is not who they claim to be. They have not given us a complete picture. They have not been honest with us. Be they something that is purely drummed up by Jach's conscious/unconscious states or something that has possessed him beyond his control...there is still a darkness at the core. Jach must be held accountable. There is no pleading insanity or possession in this one. I think we have all been there at some point (in some lifetime) and have gone on to pay the price. That's what happens when you make a deal with the devil...whether it is your own private demon or the capital 'D' Devil....it all comes from the same source. The fact that Lazaris/Jach has dark qualities does not bother me. That they are attempting to hide it and hold themselves above others, now that fucken pisses me off.

By the way Audrey ... It was my friend who asked me what Lazaris did with all of our pain, quilt, etc. when we gave it to him. "What does he do? Eat it or something?!" She was the one who started me thinking the sacrilegious thought..."Is Lazaris evil?" ...way back, years ago.

My experience is -- unfortunately a bit more close-in to the Crowley tradition.

My dead friend Jim was his absolute physical spit match, had the same kind of "church" set-up and made both Bobbi and my left hands burn as if on fire -- once at a distance of about five miles.

Black Magick is real -- as are behaviorally evil non-physical entities.

VAT? You don't believe in behaviorally evil PHYSICAL entities, either binkypoo?!

Yep.

incarnate life..

With some difficulty I have entertained the possibility that Lazaris is a malevolent entity (the idea was a jolt when I first heard it!). I can understand someone wanting to know something about Crowley, as I can understand someone wanting to know something about Hitler or Osama bin Laden. We don't know for sure that they studied Crowley, do we? Lavey sounds like he's right up Jach's alley. On the other hand, a mere mortal being well-informed in all areas of the occult might come in handy for purposes of discussion or defense, or perhaps in re-enacting ancient rites and rituals at celebrations such as a Millenium.

Every piece of this saga is better than any Saturday matinee Flash Gordon cliffhanger ever. Thanks Katie, Steve, and Pete!

quote:

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Katie: "I invocate and conjure thee, o ye blasphemous toad Peny and Michaell Norht!" [...the invocation continues, three messages up from here]

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God you're funny. And I love that spelling -- Norht. It goes lovely with the two first names and is perfect for a toad! Norht...norht...norht...

I like to think of Crowley as I do good-hearted Berkeleyhead liberals.

They mean well -- but they aim to ass-whipe *and socially castrate* the whole stepped-upon world (Vs. "teach'um to fish").

So did Hitler, Saddam.

And you don't just attract *incarnate* toxic rage-feeders (Bin Laden, et al) when you play: El Presidente Asswhipo Major.

The most chilling idea I've heard of late vis. this "Lazaris" is as follows:

Of all the deceptive masks of evil, spiritual virtue is *by far* the most dangerous.

Happy Halloween

Steve

"It does give him an ulterior motive. But I would draw a distinction between mere thievery and evil. One is interested solely in a material objective, the other emotional control for a malevolent purpose. Katie has stated many times how L has manipulated us emotionally. Was that an attempt to control or merely create dependence? What was the purpose if there was an attempt to control?
"

If Lazaris is a part of Jach, or Jach doing Lazaris, then of course it's pretty easy to see that money, attention, and power are prime motives. I've always wondered about the "20 questions with Jach" time. What's up with that? Why isn't it "20 questions with Lazaris", as it should be? Who cares what Jach has to think unless you are a friend of his? I never could figure this one out, but of course did not dare ask as I waited eternally for the Lazaris meditation online to begin. Unless Jach is wanting a little credit for his creation in a way that doesn't reveal it. And why does Jach write the fliers and not Lazaris? Again, perhaps a little credit without revealing the scam?

However, if we pose the hypothesis that Lazaris IS a conscious entity not of Earth, then money gain motive goes out the window. That leaves us with either a genuine love for humankind and a desire to help them in a world that he says isn't even real, or a desire for attention and power and draining money away from others to create a dependency. There's one hell of a lot of psychic energy in those workshop rooms and directed in the tapes. Is it possible that Earth was easy pickings for an entity who knows how to easily dupe us?

A person once asked me about my relationship to Lazaris, and of course it was in glowing terms and about the love, learning about creating my own reality, etc. When I finished, they told me I would never know spiritual freedom as long as I was afraid of risking and losing my relationship with Lazaris. It totally threw me. I realized how dependent I was on the tapes, on the workshops, on my "inside connection" to god/goddess/all-that/is. I knew I was indeed very afraid of losing that relationship. And I realized that I felt a little superior to most people because of this relationship to Lazaris, even though I also felt loads of compassion and actively worked for healing of others.

So: what is the motivation of an "antichrist", so to speak? Perhaps to divert our energy and actions towards him rather than towards god and goddess. To create their own domain of power that is without the god and goddess towards which they may be jealous or angry. And how easy to do this by appearing to be the very light and good for which we all thirst. The results can be seen by the lives of those with the most direct contact with him- untimely death and suicide.

We can find examples in many areas of life where a person sets themselves up as an authority and spiritual master without it being about the money, but for the ego gratification and sense of power. Isn't it possible this goes on in other realms by entities far more masterful than a human at it?

I roughly calculated out how much money I've "gladly" spent on seminars and tapes, and was shocked. Then asked myself if I had any other friend anywhere who REQUIRED me to spend money in order to be with them. And who gave control of the access to them to another person who may not be a friend at all and in fact manipulative. And if God/ess really would set it up for me this way.

What do you think?

By asking this, have I chosen the mediocrity? Am I in negative ego? Has my dark law got the better of me? Is my child throwing a fit and controlling my reality? Am I rejecting the love 'freely' offered by Lazaris? Will I be back for many more lifetimes and am throwing away my spirituality? Is god/goddess/all-that-is weeping for my soul if I question the existence of Lazaris?

Wonderingallowed

I forgot to include in my previous post (can you edit these after posting?) about a big warning bell I got, around the Millennium celebration in particular, but others as well. Jach mentioned online that he wasn't going to pretend that we didn't miss an opportunity of a lifetime if we weren't there. And I've heard him, and Lazaris, talk of certain workshops in ways that set up the fear in me that if I wasn't there, I wasn't going to get "it".

I've learned that this is a reliable indicator of something not quite right. Usually if a salesman tries this on me, I immediately stop negotiations and walk away, usually with them trailing after me offering an even better deal than they said they could ever offer. It disturbed me a great deal to hear this going on with the workshops.

Did any of you take the time you didn't really have or spend money you didn't have to go to workshops out of a sense you would miss something or out of fear because of anything Jach or Lazaris said? I'm not talking self generating it, but stimulated by comments made by Jach or Lazaris?

I am very familiar with the feeling of somehow missing out on intensives etc. I used to feel that my inability to get to more intensives meant that I wasn't 'spiritually evolved' enough, that I had all kinds of blockages, work, issues blah blah blah to do. Conversely, when I did get to workshops I used to feel that somehow I had created some 'magic'. What I had actually created was giant credit card debt and I am now bankrupt.

On the question 'Does evil exist and if it does what is it?' I am very interested in this. I have tended to dismiss the concept of evil as catholic guilt trying to screw up my life, but when I look at the world I am not so sure.

I heard in a film once (I can't remember which) that the greatest trick the devil ever played was to convince us he didn't exist (or words to that effect). I don't know. Marianne Williamson (who usually makes me want to puke with her trite, saccharine crap and born again christianity masquerading as spirituality) did say something interesting about the devil (again I'm paraphrasing): the devil only exists in your head, to which she said 'that's the worst possible place he could be'.

In my mind I kind of converted these concepts to the concept of 'negative ego' with which we are all so familiar. I refuse to do this any more. I no longer live my life looking to clear up my never ending defects and reasons why my life isn't full of magic and miracles with the next tape, book, seminar. I have found this to be incredibly freeing. Life isn't perfect and that's OK.

What could a non physical entity get out of screwing humans up? Perhaps it's to do with energy. I don't know. I just don't know.