There is a lot of great information on Steve's site, but I have found myself returning to this talk on several occassions. I think it's a powerful statement, not only about what happened in Waco, but as a definition of the form and function of cults. Reading this article is one of the reasons that I began to come to the conclusion that C/S functions as a cult.

Here are some exerpts from Steve's talk in discussiong cult techniques:

"Telling people that if you have a negative thought about the leader or the doctrine the group, that it's coming from your reactive mind, or it's coming from your fallen nature, or it's coming from Satan, and so you should chant, or pray, or meditate, or speak in tongues to get rid of the negative thought." (for us it's the "negative-ego" and we should use tapes, or attend seminars to process, process, process)

Steve goes on: "And what happens when an intelligent person is not allowed to have doubts, or is not allowed to think negative thoughts? Well, all you're left with are positive thoughts. Your negative thoughts all get suppressed. What happens then? Reality testing is undermined. There's no way of testing out your environment. And so very bright, talented people can become extremely dependent on someone who says, "I HAVE THE ANSWERS......

.......someone under mind control, in a mind control cult, can't imagine leaving the group and living a happy, fulfilled life. They can only generate negative imagery, and only hear negative words in their minds.

Steve goes on to discuss the "dual identity" concept, in which a person who is cultified adopts a cult identity which is different from their authentic identity. It is the part of them which behaves irrationally in response to cult indoctrination. Evidently the dual identity is present in the cult leader as much as in the followers.

Speaking about David Koresh, Steve says:
"So this dual identity concept is very important. I've read in reports where the negotiators would say that David Koresh would one moment be very rational, very warm and easy-going and communicative, and then all of a sudden he'd snap and he'd become this raving lunatic. And they described it as mood swings. Well, from my perspective, it wasn't a mood swing, it was an identity shift that was going on."

Scary thought isn't it? Is it possible that to create this little cult of his own, Jach has assumed the identity of Lazaris? And what about Peny's rants and ravings? Does the description of Koresh remind you of her? It does me. One never knows what will push Peny's buttons or send her over the edge into a rage siege. The same for her Gang, and for many devoted followers.
Have you ever been reading along in the Forum, just finished a post which seemed innocent enough to you, and then all of a sudden in rushes someone in a self-righteous fit, going on and on about negative ego and impact? That happened(s?) so many times in the Forum, I'm sure it's the reason that very few are willing to post. I sure know that I held my breath every time I pushed that "submit" button. You literally never knew what and when you would push a button, and off you go. As I think about that in the light of Steve's explanation, I can see that it is very likely that many Forum members, and especially the Gang have these alternate cult identities which allow them to behave in ways which would never ever be accepted in society at large. The comfort and protection of the group (cult) allows them to shift into these irrational modes with no contest. I have to be honest, I've done it myself. I've done it in the Forum, and in my personal life. Damn it, I did it yesterday in response to a perceived slight and in the aftermath of an emotional trauma. It takes time to recover one's authentic self. I can only say that at least I had the sense to think, think, and think some more before acting, and to take the time today to evaluate and understand what happened. Practice makes perfect.

Steve goes on to say:
"People involved with destructive cults are not to blame. They're not crazy. They're not weak. They're not stupid." He suggests that at the time of joining, people are too vulnerable to ask legitimate questions. I think we all went in so enamored of the promises of personal power, magic, abundance, prosperity, love, and enlightenment which Lazaris had convinced us that we needed their help to get, that we didn't take a close look at the background and origins of this story of the "channeled entity", who Jach Pursel and Peny North were before Lazaris, and how Concept/Synergy functions. Much of that information of course is unavailable to us. Try asking about it, and beyond the inconsistent canned answers, you will be trashed and accused of invasion of privacy and lack of respect. Of that, I am quite confident.

Something else that Steve said glared out at me:
"And I believe legitimate organizations will tell people up front who they are, what they believe, and what they expect of them. And if people don't want to belong any longer, they go, "Good luck!" They don't say, "If you leave, Satan will possess you!" "If you leave, you will lose your entire existence!" or "If you leave, you will get cancer!" or "If you leave, you will go insane!" But destructive mind control cults do do that. So this for me is a human rights issue, it's a consumer rights issue, and I believe again that I'm not interested in criticizing a group's beliefs, but I criticize a group's actions, when it undermines people's civil liberties."
Do any of you recall Peny's parting shot at me? "Katie, you have just thrown your spirituality out the window". What a threat, to me, to all those reading along, to imply that without her I could have no spirituality. I wasn't disputing Lazaris in that final offending thread, I was disputing PENY, and because of that, I lost my spirituality? My God! Yes, this is a human rights issue, and for those of you reading along, these are the words of a wise and intelligent man who has done extensive work and research on mind control and destructive cults. These actions and behaviors within the Forum and C/S are literal human rights violations, not just some uncomfortable but loving little negative ego jostlings as they claim.

When asked if all cult leaders are con men Steve replied in part:
"There are a number of con-men who are heads of cults, but the vast number, in my experience, are people who really believe their stuff, and as I mentioned before, and that they themselves were victims of a cult. L. Ron Hubbard, the head of Scientology, was a follower of Aleister Crowley, by the way. Werner Erhardt, head of est and Forum, he was once a Scientologist! Moon was involved with a cult in Korea called the Monastery of Israel. Most con-men, they want to make money, and then they want to split. They don't want to get caught, and they don't want to have problems, they don't stay around. But cult leaders make decisions based on that they really think that what they're doing is good and justified and that they're above the law and such."

We have been told by reliable sources that Jach studied Silva Mind Control method. I don't know if that group is a cult or not, but he was also involved in some big razzle dazzle MLM group, and many of those have been shown to employ cult like mind control and manipulation techniques. I'm not saying that Jach was in a cult, but I can clearly see where he got his training and inspiration to start one.

Steve has so much to say, I encourage anyone who is interested to check out his site. I'll finish this post with these words of Steve's with which I greatly agree.

"Ultimately, I think our future lies in each person taking responsibility through choice, through information, and not just denying. I think there's a tremendous fear that people have in thinking about mind control. Because they think, "It could never happen to me. You know, it's those weak people over there! It could never happen to me!" Well, if you have that belief, and you don't understand mind control, it can happen to you. In fact, it's very easy to manipulate someone who's convinced that they can't be manipulated."

Katie

Well, I have said it before, and I will repeat myself again. I believe that one of the most important parts of truely leaving a cult group is to understand how it all happened, and how other cults operate in much the same way.

I also want to say that it is quite common that the initial time after leaving a group, or starting to question a group can for some people be a very hard time. It is normal to be really emotional about such questioning.

For some it might work to get a little professional help to get it all into perspective. For others just having the openness, and the possibility to talk about it might be enough. With this post I just want to make sure that you are aware of as many resources as possible.

In any way, you guys can find a list of online resources below, both as places where you can find more information, or places you can contact should you feel the need for a little more support.

Malene

My Fav site is:
http://www.freedomofmind.com
That site also has a huge page with resources on it:
http://www.freedomofmind.com/resources.htm

http://www.csj.org

http://www.factnet.org

http://www.trancenet.org

http://www.wellspringretreat.org

European resource:
http://www.user.xpoint.at/gsk/fecris.htm

German Resource: http://www.kulte.de

English resource:
http://www.xenu.net/fair/

Autralian resource http://student.uq.edu.au/~py101663/zhome.htm

Ex members stuff:
http://www.blgoldberg.com/

Don't keep fooling yourselves that the organization which you consider yourselves to be a part of is not a controlling cult, just because you are not living all together drinking Kool-aid in a jungle, or among stashes of explosives and firearms in some abandoned farmhouse. The leaders of this particular cult want to live in luxury and don't really give a damn how YOU live.

This cult targets people with exceptional abilities to think abstractly and profoundly who have not yet, for one reason or another or many, had the support needed to fully realize their considerable potential, yet remain loving, ethical AND ambitious enough to keep alive the hope of doing so.

The cult's M.O. is to purport to be able to provide ALL the support these people need and have been missing, keep them out earning $$$ by whatever means, and then siphoning the $$$ from them on goods and services that they purport will provide ... yes ... the support these people need and have been missing. This keeps them out earning more $$$ so they can get more of the goods and services that supposedly will give these people the support they need and ... on and on.

With this little plan in motion, everything works out beautifully. The cult leaders get to live in luxury...and YOU get to keep earning $$$ so you can keep getting the goods and services that you believe will give you the support that you feel that you need and have been missing!

Mmmm.

Of course, it makes the cult leaders VERRRY uncomfortable when they see people within this organization providing EACH OTHER with REAL support (& love) or when they see a person who TRULY has found strength within him/herself. This is not in keeping with the plan's development and management. So, to continue as before, the organization has to make sure that the people who have been lured in are kept in confusion, fear and distrust. That way ... no one truly bonds with anyone else, and no one has the energy, or clarity to find any inner strength.

Except...sometimes it happens anyway.

Don't dismiss this as absurd. One symptom of "denial", is refusal to listen to anything that threatens a delicate sense of reality.

So, if you hear a little voice inside whispering to you "Something is not right ...", don't shoo it away. Don't try desperately to hold on to the illusion. The delusion. Step OVER the fear of abandonment and have the courage to be honest with yourself. Silence the advice and guidance coming from those who are not totally honest with you.

Read what is written at this site. Go to the recommended "cult" websites. Listen. Research for yourself. Take responsibility for your own spirituality. Take your power back.

You are not alone and, yes, dear Magician, you never will be. Having a mind and will of your own again will not disconnect you from the truth. It will REconnect you.

It will reconnect you with God/Goddess/AllThatIs, and with ALL of your Unseen Friends. And with that part of your inner emotional and psychic environment that you may have allowed to be named a certain name beginning with the letter "L." The part of your spiritual reality that is the unconditionally loving friend, with a separate identity but a consciousness as expansive as you in your Higher Self. But this "L" is here to love and support you and does not favor someone over you because of this person's supposed brilliance and importance in ancient cultures that may or may not have ever existed on this planet. This "L" has been with you through all of your quest to come home to your true self, on all of the many paths that you have travelled on this quest. And this "L" cannot be channeled by anybody else, or taken away from you, because they are an integral part of who you were, are, and always will be. And a part that you have come to recognize and know because of this experience.

I now do not regret the time that I spent loving and experiencing "L" as they were presented within the context of the organization we all know. Since I have reclaimed my inner power, and stepped away from the idea that ANYONE else has any spiritual authority over me, my life has begun to blossom. The role that "L" played within my consciousness began to manifest in my "illusion" reality, instantly. First I met amazing, beautiful, dear, people through this discussion site. Then I began to notice that in other areas of my life, including areas that had previously been defensively walled off, wonderful, loving people were appearing. None of these new friends have claimed to have all the answers in the Universe(s) (in fact one keeps saying out and out that she is "not God"), but all together "they" fill up that part of my emotional environment— which used to be reserved for "L"—with goodness, kindness, light and love. It is quite mysterious how these things work.

I wish you freedom and the joy that comes with it.

Well, I took a break, and now I am back with a vengeance. You guys have obviously been busy, and I dont have time to read everything in detail, I have scanned most of the posts.

Something struck me while scanning, someone was using the words Mind Numbed Cultist as a way of saying they are not that.

I would like to look at little bit at the usuall descriptions of cult members, what might be behind such a label.

It is my experience that the general public knows NOTHING about what cults are. They have no understanding off how mind control works, or what actually constitutes mind control.

I have again, and again run into the attitude that people who gets swallowed up in cults, chose it for themselves, are there because they want to be, and that you have to be really weak, or strange or both to actually get into a cult.

I have seen this attitude, or lack of knowledge even from mental health professionals, or people working within faith based organizations, such as priests, or other mainstream religious leaders.

When I speak to people about Mind Control I have the agenda to challenge that attitude. And to teach about How mind control does its dirty work. How our very strengths are being played on and used against us when someone starts using mind control techniques on us.

The fact of the matter is, cults are not for weak people. Being in a cult is very, very hard work, it is demanding like hell. It takes very strong people to be in a cult, and even more so to live with a cult.

Just this weekend I talked to someone who told me, I dont understand why I sleep so much now I have left the group. When I asked how long he had been in the group, and now out of the group, it turned out that he had been in for around 12 years, and had exited recently.

In those 12 years there had been a band on sleeping more than around 5 hours a day, with strong punishment should someone be caught sleeping more. No wonder this person was tired. And a whole lot of wonder that he actually survived that for 12 freaking years. A very strong person indeed.

If you are weak then you will be spit out very quickly due to not being able to pay for it, or in other ways not living up to what they expect of you.

It is typically strong, and very idealistic people who wants to make a positive difference in the world who gets swallowed up by cults.

When you go to read about, and discern for yourself whether or not you think you have been under the influence of mind control, I suggest keeping this in mind.

I also strongly suggest that you do, do this research. Even if you have not been under the influence of mind control, the best protection against being swallowed up in the future is to know what it is.

The reason for cults are mainly comprised of very idealistic people, is that cults play on ideals. No matter what ideals you have, I can promise you there will be a group out there playing on, and abusing those ideals. Even if the ideals are money, power, or fame. There are cults playing on that really well too. Those are however usually commercial cults, not religious cults.

The cult will offer you a faster, easier, better way to reach whatever ideals you have. They will promise you that you will reach those ideals as long as you do what they say.

People with strong ideals are many times as likely to be swallowed up by such a group, than those without ideals.

It is our strength, and ideals these groups play on, and feed on.

Weak people gets spit out, people with no ideals (if that even exists) will have nothing for the cults to play on.

There is NO SHAME in having been under the influence of mind control. There is, or should be no shame in having been deceived, abused, and having your good heart and ideals manipulated. The fact that you were in a cult, shows you have high ideals....

Another attitude I have met often is that people are there because they want to be there. THey have actually chosen it. I usually compare this attitude to the one saying battered women likes to spend time in the hospital and gets a sexual kick out of being beaten by their husbands. Thank God there has been a attitude shift to this in the last decade or so.

Part of mind control is very clever deception, which is planned to make you think you want what they are offering, however what you want, or what they make you think they are offering, and what they in reality is offering are two different things.

A third common misunderstanding I run into is that there are a few big, well known cults and if you are not a member of one of those, the cult descriptions doesnt fit your situation. Well estimates shows that there are tens of thousands small fringe groups which does fit the cult criterion. It is impossible even for the big cult watchers to list, or know all of them.

It is not about what such groups believe, it is about how they control and abuse their members. There are also one on one cultic relationships where one person in the relationship has perfected the mind control techniques.

I think it is important to recognize also that mind control techniques can be, and are found in less extreme form, and less organized form all throughout society. There are simply charismatic leaders who manages to find many of those techniques, perfect them, put them into a system, and bang you have a cult leader of whatever size it comes in.

So what lies in the term, Mind Numbed Cultist? Hmm.. Mind Numbed... what might be meant here? Well, being in a cult, in the extreme cases were people live with the group you do see those folks act like zombies. The abuse when you live with such a group is so extreme, and so constant that it becomes a necessary means of survival to isolate yourself deep inside yourself. For those who likes psychological labels it is called dissociation. Cults are perfect ways of learning this. In fact cults use both meditation techniques, hypnotic techniques, and abusive techniques to teach people to protect themselves in such a way.

That is why humans in cults often seem mind numbed. It is very sad actually, and I dont like using it as a way of mocking humans who has gone through this. God knows. I have been there.. and it hurts.

However, there are many levels of cult abuse, and even for those who has not experienced that level of abuse, there are still mind control, being controlled in our thinking and actions. The control might be less extreme, along with the less extreme abuse.

It is still cult mind control, it is still cult abuse, and it should still be opposed.

Just my two cents worth.

Welcome back!

quote:

---

I think it is important to recognize also that mind control techniques can be, and are found in
less extreme form, and less organized form all throughout society. There are simply
charismatic leaders who manages to find many of those techniques, perfect them, put them
into a system, and bang you have a cult leader of whatever size it comes in.

---

I think this is the crux of the matter. Once we identify these techniques we can understand how they are applied in areas of our lives other than cults. Cults are not unique in their use, and I would venture to say that everyone is mind controlled on some level.

Maybe the fashion industry is a great example of mind control and manipulation given that it's enormous success in
providing us with a pretty much universally accepted definition of beauty. I mean, is it possible that only skeletal women are beautiful, or only firm bodied hard faced men handsome? By accepting the fashion industry standard of beauty we have effectively discounted 99.99% of the population from ever meeting the criteria. So, here we are living a belief that will never allow for anyone over the age of 25, over 105 lbs, without a dewey complexion or a six-pack to be beautiful. Yet, let's face it, we've bought it hook line and sinker.

This is just one example of how our minds are controlled and manipulated, I'm sure we can all come up with a profound example.

When we can come to an understanding of the mechanics and power of mind control by looking at areas other than cults, maybe then we can more easily accept the possibility we could easily be drawn into a cult.

For me, the issue is to understand the function and power of mental manipulation. I don't give a damn who you are, your mind has been manipulated by someone, and in every liklihood you've manipulated others.

This is the bottom line that we have to get to IMO, if we are ever going to actually sort through all this cult information and make a realistic determination about what happened to us.

But, even more important, we have to make sure it doesn't happen again.

And, we have to make sure we don't do it to anyone else.

If the Cult Awareness information which is becoming so abundantly available in recent months has any value, to me this is it. It is an indication that we as a society are getting ready to take a cold hard look at the issue of mental manipulation. I think this topic has been flirted with from time to time, but maybe the flirtation is evolving into a full scale affair and therefore is capable of igniting the kind of passion and committment needed to bring this topic into the forefront of our social attention.

I know that here in this group we are clearly moving in that direction, especially in the discussions of the 48 Laws of Power.

It also seems that one of the first reactions most of us have to our awakening awareness of the insidiousness and effectiveness of mind control techniques is fear. It is damned scary to think that someone could have exercised so much control over our minds for so long that we spent years passionately invested in beliefs that we are now beginning to view as pretty damned ridiculous. Here we had this alleged entity brainwashing us into worshipping as a Goddess a woman who has never once in her pathetic existance exhibited anything other than the worst, foulest, and most childish behavior. Yet, most of us at one time or another have sought her favor, and feared her displeasure.

For me, the most powerful approach to the whole topic is to recognize that controllers and manipulators themselves operate from fear. No self possessed, confident, honest, decent human being believes that they have to manipulate and control others to get what they want. When we ourselves are manipulation, it is out of fear that we can't have our way unless we exert power over others. Fear is the foundation of manipulation as far as I'm concerned.

So, what do we do about all this fear? Our fear of manipulators, and the fear that causes us to manipulate?

Eveyone of us here knows the power and exhilaration of standing up, standing taller than the fear. By standing up we have a much clearer view, far over the heads of those who are stooped and steeped in their own fearful mires.

So what if half the world is studying and practicing the 48 Laws of Power? Fear has no power of it's own, it is only fuel for the manipulators and the manipulated.

I truly believe that every single technique that was presented to us by Lazaris is nothing more than another twist on fear based manipulations. JachZarus, himself a world class manipulated/manipulator takes his talent to a whole new level and proposes to us that the way to effectively create our reality is to manipulate it, even to the point of trying to manipulate the Divine. This is why so many of us broke into cold sweats of fear while practicing those techniques. They are devised from fear, fear that unless we DO something, God will not respond to us.

IMO we need to steep ourselves in an understanding that we don't have to manipulate to get anything from God/Goddess. Everything is already given. No techniques needed. We need to stop believing the fear mongering self-serving, power mad megalomaniacs of the world, and stop squirming in the boundlessly loving arms which embrace us all in every minute.

Anyone who has ever tried to feed a squalling, squirming, screaming baby might get the picture I'm trying to paint. Sometimes the little darlings are so consumed with their own little miseries that they can't settle down for 2 seconds to take the nourishment which is being gently and lovingly offered.

So, my mantra of the moment is NO FEAR, and my religion is Shut the F.. Up. I think we all need to recognize the dynamic that is at work here, and realize that all this mind controlling babble is causing a racket so loud that we can't here the Voice with only one mantra, the ceaseless mantra of Love.

When we are quiet enough to hear and feel the Love, no screeching howling banshee bitch from hell is going to come along and scare us into believing a big pile of crap ever again.

Maybe then we can look into a mirror and see a beautiful person reflecting back at us instead of feeling a big disappointment that it ain't some silicone injected, wrinkle free, characterless, plastic molded toy creature.

Or, better yet, maybe when someone suggests that we have been or are being mind controlled, we will actually know the answer to that, and have a basis for knowing whether or not it is true, instead of just discounting the thought as ridiculous.

Whew! Did I get off on a rant or what?

I love you all more than words can say. I love you for being here and inspiring me to learn to stand tall and fearless.

Yeah, Peny, even you. In your own foul and inadvertant way, you are a true inspiration.

We have seen the enemy, and it is Fear.

Katie

So, here I am finding some real nuggets in other threads, and I cant help myself commenting on some of it.

In a different thread Demian Dreamsinger said: When I first started on this journey to reclaiming my power, my first view was to realize Peny was seriously not what she was purported to be but still hold Lazaris to be true.

Then I had to face the fact that if Lazaris was real, he had to be held accountable for endorsing such an abusive person such as Peny.

Then I had to tell myself the truth that this entity or Jach had deliberately lied and misled me in at least one seminar, and all the other holes started to appear.

I finally came to the place where I realized in my mind I could no longer believe Lazaris was real. But even though I no longer believed the Lazaris material was "gospel" any longer, I still felt there were lots of valuable information in them.

Now, I'm beginning to question even that. End Quote.

This to me is a huge part of leaving a cult. For some the intense overwhelming questioning of everything happens in a short time period, for others over a longer time period.

However, I do believe questioning everything is a healthy part of leaving a cult.

It can also be the most disconcerting, scary, and painful part of actually leaving. All of a sudden we see the very fabric of what we based our lives, and ideals on being torn to bits and pieces. What can we stand on now? How can we handle all that intense questioning? What if what we find in answers is to scary to handle?

Questioning is a necessary, healthy part of leaving a cult. There will be a time when we have found our sea legs again, and life again holds high ideals, beliefs, and faith. Now those ideals will be based truely on who we are, and on the complexities of life, not on being controlled by asswholes.

The one thing we do not have to question is the inherent, deep down ideals which first led us to the cult. Those ideals are the core of our being, the best part of us. Hold on to it, know its truth, know your own goodness with those ideals, and then question everything around it, as a way of getting closer to the truth of those ideals.

Your core will not be hurt by such questioning. The only things that might get hurt by you questioning is the lies. Those can not stand up in the face of intense personal questioning.

And know, you are not the only one who has gone through, or are going through this. It is normal, it is part of recovery, it shows your strength that you are able to let it happen. Others has done this too, and come out so much stronger than before.

Kind regards,
Malene

Part of my process of figuring out this Con:Sin puzzle has been reading reading cult information. My initial interest in cults and mind control had nothing to do with Con:Sin initially, I was interested for other reasons.

I found while studying up on cult tactics and mind control techniques that much of what I was reading applied to Con:Sin. It was a shocking process of realization for me, but once I got going, I couldn't stop.

I'm providing a link to one of Steve Hassan's Freedom of Mind pages which links to information on a large number of groups and organizations which are alleged to be cults or destructive mind control groups, in light of Nancy's post today mentioning Sai Baba. It's really good to know all sides of the story on these groups, gurus and leaders.

http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups.htm

Steve does not claim that they all are cults, but simply that there is evidence that they are. It's a very interesting read.
Many of the stories and articles are all too familiar. The scenery is different, but the stories are all the same, the tactics used, the impact they have on people repeat themselves over and over. Even AA is listed.

My favorite link is to a cult busting website for Elan Vital, the group formed by Guru Maharaji back in the 70's. I had a lot of friends who were in that group so I was interested.

I found the site to be very emotionally gratifying read in it's irreverance toward this most special of beings whom I had seen worshipped as a God. Reading there and empathizing with the irreverance and exhilerated sense of freedom of the posters is what inspired this site.

I wrote to the webmaster and asked him how his participation had impacted him, because I was concerned about me and Ted, and how hosting a similar site might impact us.

The man was very lovely and helpful, he told me that for two years the site was a constant occupation for him, that he had met wonderful people, including his new wife there, and that it was a very healing experience for him.

He was, however, at that moment looking for someone else to take over as webmaster, because he was more than ready to move on.

He said that his process was finished, and that he now never cared to hear another word about Guru Maharaji, or Elan Vital.

That sealed it for me. I felt inspired and relieved to know that this man knew when it was time to go, time to move on, and that the experience had been a healing and positive part of his process of growing.

I look forward to that day myself. So far, I'm not ready, but it is part of our plan, mine and Ted's that one day we will no longer feel any interest in this ongoing discussion. When the time comes for each of us, we will hand this site over, or leave it for posterity.

I have told this story before, but wanted to share it for new readers who may wonder what inspires me and Ted to host this site, and what our long term intentions are. They are not to be here 10 years from now, still discussing whether or not Lazaris is real.

Readers and posters come and go here, and I celebrate that. When it gets quiet in here, that to me is a good good sign, a sign that people are comfortably moving on, and that is my greatest hope for all of us.

In the meantime, I'm having a blast knowing you all.

I do hope that some of you will be interested in reading up on cults and familiarizing yourselves with the information on other groups which is out there. It's sometimes easier to recognize ourselves through the stories of others.

Also, Steve has a questionaire which is used to evaluate groups to be added to the list.

I would really like to see this site linked from other cult awareness sites.

I did fill out the form awhile ago, but for some reason Steve's webmaster doesn't recall receiving it.

Steve and I are not the best of buddies at this time, and Con:Sin isn't on anyone at freedom of minds hit list like the Scientologists and bigger cults are.

I have my suspicions about why that is, probably the reason that Steve and I aren't too thrilled with each other. I don't have a whole lot of respect for the way Steve conducts his own business, his message board is an inspiration to me on how NOT to run a board, but I do have a lot of respect for the work he is doing, and the information he has made available.

So, if anyone (Wayne?) is feeling a desire to take some kind of positive action about Con:Sin, I think it would be great to see our site and any other input listed on other cult awareness sites.

Also, filling out Steve's questionaire is a very interesting exercise, even if you don't choose to submit it, it's quite useful as an educational private processing.

The questionare can be found at:

http://www.freedomofmind.com/submitinfo.htm

Thanks!

Katie

This fits,

quote:

---

Ultimately, each new member contributes to the power of the leader by trading his or her freedom for the illusion of security and reflected glory that group membership holds out.

---

From same site, on cult exit loss and grief,

quote:

---

The loss of innocence (the result of feeling that one had been spiritually "raped, used, betrayed) (84%)

Grief over the years "lost" in the group (71%)

Grief regarding "what could have been . . ." (71%)

Loss of meaning/purpose in life (69%)

Loss of trust in religion (68%).

Although exiting a high-demand group signifies, and carries with it, hope of a new life filled with individual freedom, especially the freedom to make one’s own decisions and choices, departure also means coming face-to face with a multiplicity of losses.

---

www.csj.org/rg/rgessays/rgessay_grief.htm

They forgot to include issues about self trust on the list. I think the site is an interesting resource.

Jade

quote:

---

A curious aspect of the material is that while it is stated that love/positivity are more powerful than the negative, the convoluted nature of the way all the negative parts of ourselves are presented gives another impression altogether. Seemingly unending aspects to unravel.

---

Yes, this is the way of cults, to pump endless streams of information but none of it ever leads anywhere but back into the information.

Lazaris presents us with a maze that has no exit. The "be skeptical even of your skepticism" is a perfect example. When do we actually allow ourselves to resolve our skepticism? I thought we were developing self-trust, and discriminating thinking.

Good news for Jach's bank account not to mention his desire for status and power.

This is one of my biggest reasons for believing that Jach and Lazaris are one and the same, or at the very best that Lazaris works for Jach, not for us.

I think when Lazaris says "we will love you forever and a day", they mean "you will have to pay forever and a day". Pretty words used to describe a beyond life sentence.

I took the liberty of copying a more detailed outline of Steve Hassan's BITE method for evaluating a group to see if it fits the model for a cult or destructive mind control group.

Anyone who hasn't read this yet might recognize a few things. And thanks to Jach's perfectly modeled handling of the recent deaths, the pile under that rug becomes even bigger and harder not to trip on.

quote:

---

I. Behavior Control

1. Regulation of individual’s physical reality

a. Where, how and with whom the member lives and associates with
b. What clothes, colors, hairstyles the person wears
c. What food the person eats, drinks, adopts, and rejects
d. How much sleep the person is able to have
e. Financial dependence
f. Little or no time spent on leisure, entertainment, vacations

2. Major time commitment required for indoctrination sessions and group rituals

3. Need to ask permission for major decisions

4. Need to report thoughts, feelings and activities to superiors

5. Rewards and punishments (behavior modification techniques- positive and negative).

5. Individualism discouraged; group think prevails

6. Rigid rules and regulations

7. Need for obedience and dependency

II. Information Control

1. Use of deception

a. Deliberately holding back information
b. Distorting information to make it acceptable
c. Outright lying

2. Access to non-cult sources of information minimized or discouraged

a. Books, articles, newspapers, magazines, TV, radio
b. Critical information
c. Former members
d. Keep members so busy they don’t have time to think

3. Compartmentalization of information; Outsider vs. Insider doctrines

a. Information is not freely accessible
b. Information varies at different levels and missions within pyramid
c. Leadership decides who "needs to know" what

4. Spying on other members is encouraged

a. Pairing up with "buddy" system to monitor and control
b. Reporting deviant thoughts, feelings, and actions to leadership

5. Extensive use of cult generated information and propaganda

a. Newsletters, magazines, journals, audio tapes, videotapes, etc.
b. Misquotations, statements taken out of context from non-cult sources

6. Unethical use of confession

a. Information about "sins" used to abolish identity boundaries
b. Past "sins" used to manipulate and control; no forgiveness or absolution

III. Thought Control

1. Need to internalize the group’s doctrine as "Truth"

a. Map = Reality
b. Black and White thinking
c. Good vs. evil
d. Us vs. them (inside vs. outside)

2. Adopt "loaded" language (characterized by "thought-terminating clichés"). Words are the tools we use to think with. These "special" words constrict rather than expand understanding. They function to reduce complexities of experience into trite, platitudinous "buzz words".

3. Only "good" and "proper" thoughts are encouraged.

4. Thought-stopping techniques (to shut down "reality testing" by stopping "negative" thoughts and allowing only "good" thoughts); rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism.

a. Denial, rationalization, justification, wishful thinking
b. Chanting
c. Meditating
d. Praying
e. Speaking in "tongues"
f. Singing or humming

5. No critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy seen as legitimate

6. No alternative belief systems viewed as legitimate, good, or useful

IV. Emotional Control

1. Manipulate and narrow the range of a person’s feelings.

2. Make the person feel like if there are ever any problems it is always their fault, never the leader’s or the group’s.

3. Excessive use of guilt

a. Identity guilt

1. Who you are (not living up to your potential)
2. Your family
3. Your past
4. Your affiliations
5. Your thoughts, feelings, actions

b. Social guilt
c. Historical guilt

4. Excessive use of fear

a. Fear of thinking independently
b. Fear of the "outside" world
c. Fear of enemies
d. Fear of losing one’s "salvation"
e. Fear of leaving the group or being shunned by group
f. Fear of disapproval

5. Extremes of emotional highs and lows.

6. Ritual and often public confession of "sins".

7. Phobia indoctrination : programming of irrational fears of ever leaving the group or even questioning the leader’s authority. The person under mind control cannot visualize a positive, fulfilled future without being in the group.

a. No happiness or fulfillment "outside"of the group
b. Terrible consequences will take place if you leave: "hell"; "demon possession"; "incurable diseases"; "accidents"; "suicide"; "insanity"; "10,000 reincarnations"; etc.
c. Shunning of leave takers. Fear of being rejected by friends, peers, and family.
d. Never a legitimate reason to leave. From the group’s perspective, people who leave are: "weak"; "undisciplined"; "unspiritual"; "worldly"; "brainwashed by family, counselors"; seduced by money, sex, rock and roll.

---

Read through, and ponder that fact that even though most of us will see some definitions that don't fit Con:Sin, the employees and those closest to the organization won't.

My opinion is that anyone who is in the business of dispensing spiritual advice goes in corrupt, and the corruption continues and evolves as the ego strokes and money start pouring in.

All of the cult signs might not be present in the beginning, but as time moves on their evolution becomes inevitable. It is the only way to keep people coming back, especially when the material has it's limits, but the lust and greed do not.

Thanks for writing Oakspirit! I really enjoyed your post and celebrate your freedom!

Katie

Here's another interesting bit from the Influence at Work site I referenced on another thread.

It's about what is called Self-Serving Bias, the tendency of humans to consider themselves immune to influence and above and beyond the everyone else in the world.

It is this tendency which actually makes people more vulnerable to cults according to the author.

quote:

---

Before jumping into the specifics, I'd like to briefly discuss an insidious psychological process called the "Self-serving Bias." This bias leads us to believe that we are immune to the influences that affect the rest of humanity. I run into this bias all the time when describing my work on resistance to persuasion: "I think it's great that you're trying to help people resist television ads. Of course, TV ads don't persuade me..."

The self-serving bias has been demonstrated countless times: the majority of Americans believe they are smarter and better looking than average; most drivers (even those hospitalized for accidents) believe themselves more skilled than the average driver; most smog-breathing Los Angelinos believe themselves healthier than their neighbors; most college students believe they will outlive their predicted age of death by 10 years, and so on.

The most ironic example of the self-serving bias that I've ever heard appeared in a social psychology paper written by one of Kelton's students. After the self-serving bias had been discussed in class, this student wrote:

"I don't understand why they say the self-serving bias is universal. I mean, I see it in other people, but I personally don't have a self-serving bias."

I'm not kidding, the student really wrote that!

The self-serving bias often manifests in innocuous or amusing ways, as in the examples above. But in the context of cult influence, this bias leaves us with a dangerous illusion of invulnerability: "I'm not the kind of mindless zombie who joins a cult." But very few mindless zombies join cults. Instead, as discussed on a previous page, the vast majority of cult recruits are normal, productive people--people confident in their ability to shrug off cult influence tactics. So, if I had to name the single most important defense against cult influence, it is the realization that we are all vulnerable--our friends, our families, and ourselves. (Note: Dr. Singer argues convincingly that false perceptions of invulnerability leave us particularly vulnerable

---

This information goes a long way toward explaining to me why many people come to this site, and just reject out of hand the notion that Con:Sin might be a cult, or who believe that OTHERS may have been controlled and manipulated, but that they are far beyond anything like that ever happening to them.

Ironically, these are always the angriest and staunchest defenders who can never come up with one clear or definitive statement as to why or what they are defending.

But, my my, do they ever look down on those of us who are open to thinking about mind control and manipulation.

Heads up!

I think we're ready to start our own cult for sure. We have it down pat by now!

I was thinking of channelling Peny. Think of all the good alternative therapy help we could dish out. Or, maybe we could do some co-channelling, one of us could be Michaell and the other Peny.

Or, we could make up our own cool entity.

Seriously, do check out that site! It is really interesting, and loaded with lots of little research tidbits that are just fascinating. It's all written in plain English too, not scholar speak.

My favorite is an experiment performed at a University where all but one copy machine was shut down causing long lines to form at the only functional one. Several people were enlisted to cut the line using three different excuses. The point of the exercise was to measure how thoughtfully people respond to a request.

First excuse + good reason: Excuse me, may I use the copy machine? I'm late for class. = 94% compliance rate.

Second excuse + no reason: Excuse me, may I use the copy machine = 60% compliance rate

Third excuse + dumb reason: Excuse me, may I use the copy machine, I need to make copies. = 93% compliance rate.

The results are a measure of the mindless way in which many people respond to information. The dumb and ridiculous excuse got only a 1% worse response rate than the good excuse. Yet, people did notice when there was no excuse provided.

Of course, no matter which way you twist or turn it, at least 40% of those waiting in a long line allowed someone to cut in front of them, excuse or no. Makes you think doesn't it?

It makes me think of the power of something like signing a nasty post "Love and Peace" as opposed to signing a nice one "Lava and Peas". "Love and Peace" have their power, I would say, to those who are not mindful.

The key here is MINDFUL. We really do have to learn to be MINDFUL, even of our own Self Serving Biases.

So, how about we target our cult start date for Jan 2002? That should give us plenty of time to plot, scheme, and finish vacationing!

I swear, Aud, I seriously believe that we could pull it off, even after scheming publicly.

I would like you to ask yourselves why you are posting in such an insulting way. I am sure that in the normal way of things you wouldn't be insulting about Katie's marriage so why are you being like that here?

I've seen various people in various cults. There are plenty of differences but they have some things in common too. One thing they have in common is that they won't focus on the issues. Instead they attack the motives of the person presenting information, or the original source. When you think about it, it makes sense. The last thing a cult wants is its members thinking about the doctrine in a reasoned way.

What you said actually gave me a new perspective on cults generally. First of all I think we would agree that there are positive and negative things in us all. It struck me while I was reading your post that cults steal the good things and leave us with the bad.

So if we are ill and get better, it is because of following the rules of the cult. If we have an accident, say, then it is our own fault. So we come to see ourselves as the source of all negative things, and the cult as the source of all good things.

It's quite quiet at the moment because people are on vacation but feel
free to get in there and make some noise...

You can join the list here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freedom-of-thought

We've had some interesting discussions, but it would be fun to get the
input of people from cosmicfool. There is plenty of controversy here,
and that's what we need if the list is to be a useful resource.