Please also review the following two conclusions from the "Friend or Fraud" section:

Katie and Ted's version as of October 2000 (Please page through each section)

Craig's version

Thank you for your thoughts. Since you mentioned that it doesn't matter for you if Lazaris is "real", I would like to offer my opinion about whether it matters. Of course I can't decide if it matters for you, but it matters a great deal to me.

Why?

First, if Lazaris is who they claim to be, then it follows that Peny is who they claim her to be and therefore I am who Peny claims me to be. The claim of Lazaris' honesty and wisdom, coupled with the claim that Peny is a particularly bright light has created fertile soil for Peny to seriously abuse many people. Due to Peny's elevated status, people will tend to internalize her abuse much more than abuse coming from a "mere mortal".

"Lazaris" says that they suppose that they could lie and say that they had lived in Atlantis or some such thing and nobody would be able to prove or disprove it. But they are dedicated to the truth. Even though that type of lie would not ostensibly do any harm. Why do they claim to be so dedicated to the truth if it doesn't matter?

Intention matters. If the intent of the Lazaris material is to make Jach and Peny rich and to prop up Peny's ego, then the effect of the material will be vastly different than if the intent is to provide loving help. If the intent were noble, then we can be sure that ulterior information is absent. But if the intent is to make more money, for example, then the material could be laden with suggestions that we need to buy more tapes, attend more workshops, than we really do. The material could be laden with suggestions that we really can't succeed without the material, in spite of the disclaimers that "Lazaris" often makes. Subtle suggestions are more powerful. The disclaimers serve to keep us off guard.

The "meditations" that Lazaris takes people on include changing one's state of consciousness to an alpha level, similar, if not equal to that of hypnosis. This allows "Lazaris" access to very deep areas of our psyche and souls. I will trust only those whose motivations I know to be pure that type of access.

We hear stories of people discovering an ongoing infidelity from their spouse and being devastated by it. Even though their spouse may have provided them with an abundance of love, time, energy, etc. Why then is it so devastating? Because it is a betrayal. It's extraordinarily disrespectful. The love, affection, etc. that may have been experienced in spite of the betrayal becomes very hollow.

The fact that the Lazaris material contains a lot of wisdom and facts creates a trust that makes discernment more difficult. We are sucked in by the reality creation techniques, etc., and are then led to believe that humanity is the result of Orion experimentation and other such nonsense.

Much - maybe most - of the Lazaris material, I agree, if factual. But Truth is not simply a series of facts. Truth is complete. Truth has no hidden agendas. Jach may mention many useful facts when claiming to channel lazaris, but if he is not really channelling, then Truth is diminished. We see politicians use facts to obscure the truth all the time (when they're not outright lying). Does that matter? I'm sure there are ample facts to justify electing Al Gore, Dubya or Adolph Hitler to office. To make a responsible descision, we need to get to the Truth.

Friends of Lazaris are encouraged to reach out to Lazaris, to ask Lazaris for help. We've been told that Lazaris will be there for us when we cross over at death. How shocking would it be to expect Lazaris to be there and they're not?

Believing that Lazaris is real fosters a trust that is unfounded (if they are not real). If Jach spoke the same words, but without claiming that they came from the Higher Realms, the information could be very useful. But it would be taken in the spirit that it is coming from an imperfect human being and subjected to the proper skeptism. The Higher Realms myth elevates the information beyond it's true meaning and value.

It seems to me that the abuse in the Forum has gotten much worse recently, and since you left. People come to the Forum believing it to be a "safe place", believing that the people in there, especially those working for Concept: Synergy, are honest and loving. Most people would not put up with that abuse for a second if not for the belief that those resposible for it are acting in their best interests. That belief stems from the belief in Lazaris' "realness". In the Forum people allow themselves to much more vulnerable than they would in other situations, based on the idea that Lazaris is who they claim to be.

Of course I can't prove or disprove Lazaris' "realness". But, for me, I have much less to lose if I'm wrong about it being a hoax than I could lose if I mistakenly accept it as real.

[[It has been a pleasure joining you here.]]

And it's a pleasure you here. Thanks for coming.

Thank you from posting. I'm happy to see you here, but sorry for the circumstances which brought you.

I can only surmise from your post that you are a victim of another wave of Forum Storm. If that is the case, I am truly sorry that you went through that. As you know I have been through one myself, and I can say with no reservation that it was the worst assault I have ever experienced in my not so short life. I have recovered though, and I feel confident that you will too. :)

You state that you hope we are wrong about Lazaris. I understand that thought too.

Just to be clear, we are not here to convince you one way or the other about the aunthenticity of Lazaris. We are seeking only to provide and share information and experiences so that anyone who is having doubts or questions can have the benefit of hearing what others have to say.

It us totally up to you to decide and come to your own conclusions about Lazaris. You will not get pressure here from me or Ted to agree with our conclusions. I can't promise you that no one else might come along and try to convince you, but so far that has not happened here, and I don't expect that it will.

We sure will debate and discuss here, but we have no agenda to enforce our beliefs on anyone. Anyone attempting to do that here will be confronted and exposed to the best of our ability.

Ted and I both had the same thought when we read your post, and that is that we are at the point of feeling that even if Lazaris is real, we want no part of any entity or being which is propping up Jach, Peny, Concept/Synergy and the Forum. If there is a Lazaris, they are just as culpable for the rampant abuse which is running loose throughout that organization. So, in that sense, to us it is irrelevant whether or not there is a Lazaris. If there is, they are not the loving entity they claim to be, and they do not tell the truth. Peny is not an enlightened, loving, caring, being as Lazaris claims. That fact is evident through her treatment of others. Therefore, Lazaris or Jach is lying when they repeat that statement over and over again.

You stated that you have a hard time imagining how Jach could fake such brilliance and question whether or not he is a genius.

I have discovered from my cult investigations that Jach is hardly the only person who is succeeding at pulling off some mighty fine trickeries. Jach is very very good at what he does though, I will give him that. But, also, don't forget, no one until very recently has had a public forum from which to dispute or question the Lazaris material, or to provide information and insights into the inner workings of Concept/Synergy. Jach has enjoyed a clear playing field for a long time now.

From what we can determine, Jach has studied mind control techniques, and very clearly uses hypnotic suggestion techniques via the "meditations". We have been told that Jach (and Peny, Michaell, and others?) studied Silva Mind Control. If you pick up a book or read up on that on the internet you will quickly recognize a lot of techique and theory as that which has been fed to us as the unique wisdom of Lazaris.

Actually, if you do an internet search for just about any of topics of Lazaris teachings you will find an abundance of information from other sources, some of it identical to this allegedly original source of information.

Granted, it is really hard to imagine how any human could sit for hours in front of an audience and speak so eloquently and extensively. But, now that I've had a chance to look through skeptical eyes, it doesn't seem so amazing to me anymore. One thing I have said here before, which might bear repeating is that over the past few years Jach seems to be running out of material. Once it seemed that every single word in the workshops or on the tapes was dripping and loaded with new wisdom and insights, now it just seems to be the same old same old warmed over and served with a new garnish.

If you ever took the time to do the math and figure out how much money Jach makes every time he opens his mouth and Lazaris comes out, you might at least begin to understand how he could be mightily inspired to find a lot of things to say. I'll wager that there are few of us who wouldn't find some great sounding stuff to talk about for a few hours if we were paid a million dollars to do it.

There really is nothing new in the Lazaris material other than fluffy bits of information which are of no practical use or application. No one can prove or disprove the existance of Lemuria, Atlantis, Sirians, Orions, Pleadians, etc. for example. Jach can speak for hours on topics like those and never utter one truthful word, but how would anyone know? Anyway, even these are not new or different,people have been speculation, hypothesizing, and fictionalizing stories about these same topics for centuries. Jach has a wide field of information from which to draw material.

As far as the applicable techniques, most of these are based on tried and true principles and beliefs of other religions and schools of philosophy, even science. Jach has just repackaged the work and study of centuries, and labeled it with the name "Lazaris", from my perspective. Some of it is really valuable, and some is open to speculation.

Someone recently theorized to me that based on her insider view of the workings of C/S that she believes that Jach,et al study up on the newest new age fads passing around, and the next thing Lazaris is doing a workshop on that topic. That's just called market research, and I think C/S is good at it.

One thing is certain, and that is that there is no indication that followers of Lazaris have achieved the great levels of prosperity, abundance, or magical reality creation skill that Lazaris has promised since the beginning. If all these techniques worked as explained and promised, by now the Lazaris community would be making some kind of waves in the world. To date, they are not. One question that has been asked over and over again by those who have written to us, is "where is all this abundance?" That is not to say that even we ourselves have not achieved a greater degree of prosperity than we had prior to meeting Lazaris, but given that our prosperity over the past year since we left the Lazaris teachings has had it's most dramatic leap, we can hardly attribute that to the teachings, or the techniques which we now refuse to practice. I think it's more about willingness and self-respect than anything else. Leaving the Forum vastly enhanced our self-respect, so it isn't surprising that our bank accounts have reflected the greater love and confidence we now have for ourselves. Our relationships with others have significantly improved and deepened also.

We find our connection with these concepts that Jach teaches through the power of the guided visualizations, or actual hypnotisms which Jach performs. The human mind is incredibly suggestible. I have done enough reading lately on the topic to know that it is not even a sophisticated trick to be able to implant the sense of a real experience into a human mind, especially a trusting mind which is anxious and ready to be provided with powerful imageries.

Just the use of the word "love" over and over again has a profound effect on most people, and again, especially people who are consciously expecting it and looking for it.
"Love bombing" is a technique almost universally used by cult leaders. It is a fundamental and essential part of any cult indoctrination program, or mind control strategy. We all want to love and be loved, and we all trust those who convince us that they love us.

Love bombing is so powerful that some people allow themselves to be physically abused for years while still believing that they are being loved. Their investment in that love is stronger and more powerful than even their sense of self-preservation. Cult leaders know and capitalize on this fact of human consciousness.

It took me a long time to sort through my belief in Lazaris. I was a firm and true believer for 12 years. There was a time when I would have bet my life that Lazaris was real. I have been spoken to by "Lazaris", felt their energy, cried in the cradle of their energy. How the hell do you go about denying experiences like that?

I think the one thing that saved me is the fact that I had had similar and identical experiences before I met Lazaris. I have learned that we do indeed live in a loving Universe, and that Love is readily available all who ask. When we open our hearts, love just pours in to the point of overflow. Jach has learned to put us in a state of openness and receptivity which allows for this experience of love. He has labeled it Lazaris, put a price tag on it, and sold us something which is free for the asking. Through the use of clever marketing techniques, subtle and not so subtle suggestion he has conditioned us to recognize that Love as Lazaris.

All I can tell you my dear wounded friend, is that I have taken off the packaging and labels, and not only is the Love still there, but it is there in Spades. And I don't have to put up with Peny and the Gangsters to have it.

So many of us were just terrified to lose that love, and that is the weapon Peny, Jach, and the Gangsters wield against us. They claim to have a special closeness to the Love, and create the impression that we somehow need them, and their approval to be "eligible" for the Love. They take it upon themselves to judge our state of beingness, and contrary even to the teachings of Lazaris, imply that most of us are not nearly worthy of the Love, but need them to show us the way to be truly good enough and eligible.

They weave a tangled web, but the maze always and inevitably points to only one place, and that is the C/S bank account.

I believe these people to be criminal soul rapists. I believe they do what they do consciously, deliberatly, with lots and lots of forethought, and a huge helping of malice.

If you have been on the receiving end of their sadistic ego romps, you will at least be able to consider that part of what I am saying as valid.

Regardless of whether or not my opinions have a resonance of truth, or are of any interest to you, I do hope you will come to know that we truly do care about what happened to you, and that we are here to provide whatever support we can.

You are of course free to disregard or dispute anything which doesn't feel right to you in what I have said. You will not be judged by me or Ted for thinking differently than we do. Just keep thinking, that is the most important message we can put out.

Think, Think, Think, and have no fear.

You will heal, and you will have your questions and doubts resolved sooner or later. That I promise you.

I hope you stick around, and maybe share with us some of the details of what happened to you. I keep saying this, but it's important. People are reading here who are hungry for understanding and information. C/S keeps a close lock on a lot of information, practices censorship, and prohibits a free and open dialogue. That is not the case here, and every word written here has the potential to be a priceless gem of insight for someone who is hurting and wounded like you are. So, please think about sticking around and sharing.

Whatever you do, I am most grateful that you did post, and most happy to meet you.

All the best,

Katie

"I'm still licking my wounds and trying to come to some semblance of understanding within myself concerning Lazaris. I am licking my wounds with another wounded but very strong individual that was kicked out. We communicate through email. I have only been with Lazaris for a few years, but have always maintained either Jach is a genius or Lazaris is real. It seems to me noone could have that much wisdom out the set. Such indepth wisdom. I really hope you're wrong about Lazaris.
Cheers

I also have wondered about why some people got consultations and others did not. If is trust worthy, and available, any individual who asks should be scheduled for a appointment. In the early nineties I had two, a year and a half apart. Yet a friend, who went to many more seminars than I did, never got even one. Also I heard that celebraties had special private sessions and that didn't sit well with me.

I also went through the "He knew my name" experience during the crystal ceremony a couple of times. When I was looking for ways to validate the realness of and my involvement with the material, that was one of them.

But ultimately all of those reasons have been cancelled out by the combined absurdity of:

1. L coming to be with Peny in particular.
2. Peny's tyrannical behavior on the forum.
3. The suspicious origins of the material.
4. The falseness of some of the information.
5. The calulated dynamic that simultaneously
builds a person's sense of well being
while undermining it.
6. The designation of followers as Map Makers.
Pretty absurd when you take into account
the number of followers and their
economic and racial homogenaity in relation
to the rest of the world.
7. The encumbering weight of the metaphysical
baggage a follower bears while studiously
attempting to keep up with the material.

I'm sure there is more! ! Just felt like laying out why IMO the scales are so tipped against those special moments where is credited with spiritual significance.

Love,
Jade

[Editor's note: Lengthy description of personal relationship removed]

About my impressions and thoughts on Lazaris material--first, I listened to the Lazaris tapes in 1993 or 1994, so what I write here is based on my memories of my impressions at the time. The tapes I listened to were, as I recall, "The Magical Child," "Your Invisible Friends," "Busting the Negative Ego," and another negative ego tape. They were from ca. 1984-1986, I think. I listened to them multiple times, but my memory of most of the specific details is a bit fuzzy. My memory of my impressions is more clear.

I only listened to the tape of my friend's consultation with Lazaris once, so my impressions of that are not as clear. That tape was probably from the early 1980s, but I'm not sure.

Anyway, my impressions of the Lazaris material reflects what Lazaris was like in the mid-1980s. It sounds like Lazaris may have changed over the years.

As I mentioned before, I came to the Lazaris material with a much different perspective than most other people here. When I was listening, I was thinking "What techniques is this fellow using? How is he doing it?"

I know about techniques psychics use in doing readings to make them seem personal, and how they can use tiny bits of information about someone to make it seem like they know more than they really do (as an example, recall the magician/mystic character Dororthy encounters when she's running away from home in the movie version of the Wizard of Oz). When I listed to my friend's tape of his session with Lazaris, I was listening for those things.

I actually thought Lazaris did a pretty poor job. When you're telling someone about their "past lives," how can they prove you made a mistake.

The one thing I remember that I thought was pretty funny was that Lazaris said something about having talked to my friend before. And my friend said "No, this is the first time." And Lazaris said "Oh, we must have talked to you on some other plane. It gets hard to keep track, sometimes." What a handy excuse for forgetting who you're talking to or being wrong about past events or future preditions--it's true in some other reality, on some other plane.

When I said it sounded to me like Lazaris was joking around and was transparent that the whole thing was a sham, I didn't mean to minimize the seriousness of the harm caused by Lazaris and Concept:Synergy. I was just thinking about what I'd read about what "reformed" con artists have described about how con artists think and work. It seems like part of the motivation may be the "game" in addition to the money. Of course they don't play fair and the game is rigged, but they still see it as a game.

One thing that gave me the impression about the joking around part was all the contradictions in the Lazaris material. I remember in one of the tapes Lazaris saying that people should ask lots of questions. But in practice, questions were discouraged. My impression of the format of these Lazaris sessions was that communication was pretty much one way. Attendees were not encouraged to jump up, wave their arms, and say "Hey Lazaris, I didn't understand what you said about X, could you clarify that point."

The question about Is Lazaris real? that I referred to earlier, is another example. I remember on one of the tapes Lazaris addressed skeptics who might ask "Lazaris, can you prove you are real?" with the question "Can you all prove that you are real?" and everyone laughed. I guess people were supposed to think "I don't know how to prove I'm real, so I shouldn't ask Lazaris to prove they're real, either."

But the question "Is Lazaris real?" is just a red herring, a distraction from the more important question "What evidence is there that this Lazaris character is a multi-dimentional non-physical being with special powers who is our friend and loves us and is channeled through Jach?"

And, "What would it mean to be a multi-dimetional non-physical being? How would anything non-physical interact with the physical world, anyway? If there was such a thing as a non-physical being, why would I think it would have anything relevant to say to me? Lazaris purports to be conveying valuable information, but information requires some kind of storage and organizational capacity. What would be a non-physical way of storing, organizing, processing, and transmitting information? How does channeling work? Is something affecting neurotransmitter levels in Jach's brain? How could some outside entity perform such delicate operations on someone's mental processes without ever goofing up and causing a seizure or something?"

Anyway, to me that was one of the jokes or tricks. The question "Is Lazaris real?" is probably the least important and least interesting question about Lazaris you could ask, so Lazaris/Jach posed and dismissed that one, distracting the audience from all the other more interesting questions, even while seeming to encourage people to ask questions.

That's all I have time to address right now.

Again, I want to reassure Jade and everyone that I don't intend to minimize the damage caused by Lazaris & Co. or place undue blame on their victims. My whole point of being here in the first place was to give an example of how their bad works have a ripple effect that goes beyond their direct victims.

Yours,
Melinda

Since January of this year, I have been examining my relationship with the Lazaris material, its credibility and value.

I have not come to any hard and fast conclusions but I will share a few thougths and "soft" conclusions I have reached.

First of all, I want to say that it is my opinion [and only my opinion] that Concept Synergy is a toxic, noxious little tribe of misfits that could all benifit from applying just a little the material that they have grown so rich selling.

Short of that some behavioral modification therapy might be in order.

My observation is that Peny and the Gang distorted a small portion of what Lazaris talked about to provide justification and
fuel to create a toxic "family" of bullying and fear that gave them identity and quite simply something do do during the day.

I don't believe for instance that Peny applied or was even aware of much of what Lazaris has talked about. Certain of the gang memebers are "well versed" [a suprisingly few]. but Peny was the focus.

It wasn't Lazaris the gang was studying [imo] but Peny. Peny was the guru that Lazaris always refused to be and that they obviously secretly wanted.

I have written here in other threads that I believe a conscious effort was made to create dependancy from Concept Synergy.

I still believe that, although I don't know how conscious it is.

The tacky marketing techniques and the sloppy and hostile way they treat their customers demonstrates what happens when a horrible business sense meets hubris.

My "belief" in Lazaris was never based on the pushy, slimy obvious marketing slogans that CS slapped on every hideous purple piece of shit they mailed out..

My acceptance of Lazaris was based on what I felt to be a profound demonstration of an exceptional intelligence, keen insight, kindness and humor.

I have revised some of the opinions I have expressed here earlier this year in that I don't think the dependancy was created in the material[ at least in the early years ] but by CS as its marketer.

I have listened carefully to some of the earlier material, Lynn and yes I do see some differences.

The emphasis on personal power, on a the idea that the steps of getting somewhere are the qualities of being there.. as well as the emphasis on personal excellence and their being no prerequisites to growth.

The more recent material, with some notable exceptions, seems to be a retread at best and at worst an attempt to create fear of what is lurking in your subconscious and unconcious minds.

So where I stand right now is that the material has great merit in its early years.

The only thing that remains a question is Lazaris observations of Peny and his participation in a multilevel marketing scam that Peny and Jach engineered in the mid 80's.

Further, Lazaris has never commented on the forum brutality or the outrageous greed and price gauging that CS employs.

Until I can resolve those issues, I am looking for facts and eyewitness reports..[lol]

One thing is certain, no matter how brilliant I think some of the material is, I will not send one more fucking cent to that shady operation south of the Mason Dixon line..

Also Lynn, I want to say I agree with Ted that your forum attack was motivated out of CS attempting to protect its cashflow.

Your observation was correct and Lazaris agreed with you many times over on several tapes that it is not intended for everyone to work with every tape.

Lazaris also stated frequently that workshops were not meant to be a requirement but a source of fun, a preference.

The only thing you "have" to do Lazaris said is to be responsible.

Cheers,

Jeremiah

I'm holding to my position that Jach doesn't need a team of researchers to have come up with the entire body of L material.

There simply isn't really that much there when you get right down to it.

There is a ton of psychological and emotional manipulation, but very little actual usable, verifiable, effective, information or technique.

Sure there is a lot of common sense, but we don't have to spend all our savings to get that. Did we really need L to tell us that we should be honest, clear, and forthright in living our lives and that rewards would come from that?

I agree with you that the failure of Jach, Peny, et. al to live up to the teachings which became their life work is the biggest indication of all as to the veracity of the source.

Also, the fact that this entity manages to be able to completely ignore the insane bullshit that goes on in "his" name, speaks volumes to me too. Sure, Lazaris loves us all forever and a day, those of us who shell out, but forever and a day seems to end everytime Peny or Jach have a bone to pick.

No, it's bullshit, plain and simple.

I watched a Biography presentation on the life of Jimmy Swaggart last night. Jimmy was at one time the number 1 Televangelist and a cousin to Jerry Lee Lewis. He too could move thousands with his profound wisdom which he claimed came directly from God, and he sure knew how to use that to bring home the big bucks.

He was taken down by his apparent addiction to prostitutes, not to mention his extreme arrogance. After a time his own father denounced him saying that "Jimmy has lost his mind, he is insane."

Yeah, Jimmy had a direct line to God, sure he did.

I was comforted to see that eventually he was derobed and denounced by the Christian Community, although, it should be noted that those who took him down also now are chomping merrily on the piece of the pie he left behind.

Ohhh..damn, it's all so rotten and ugly.

I watched the faces of the Swaggart "true believers" while he was doing his preaching. People were sobbing everywhere, others faces were aglow with a sincere sense of being in the presence of God.

None of that emotion had one thing to do with that arrogant, greedy, dishonest, sex-addicted, self-promoting piece of dirt. But, were those experiences real?

I guess that depends on what the definition of real is.

What are we looking for here? A synthetically contrived emotional catharsis, or a real and direct connection with the Divine?

Until we get it that no one can love for us, and that love needs no mediation, it is an intimate and unique experience between two hearts and souls, I guess the Ronald McDonald
spiritualists of the world will continue to rack up those numbers on their billboard counts. How many billions of souls have been disserved by them? Count the dollars.

May they all rot in their own private hells of their own making.

Welcome, glad to see you writing.

quote:

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My first post, last night, was on the Many Eyes Thread. I've jumped to here right now, as it seems this thread is more in line with what I want to talk about. I mentioned that I also am aware that the people who go up and speak to Lazaris during the crystal ceremonies (not the ones getting their crystals) are telling him how many people and how much time is left.

---

One of the things that always distracted me about the "crystal ceremony" was the "first communion" style of the whole set up.

I was put off by the false piety and silliness around lining up to have a moment with this non-guru by all us non-followers.

This is one of the reason I went to so few of the workshops and simply concentrated on the tapes. It became so much more possible not to feel like a sucker..[g]

quote:

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As many people know, prior to the beginning of each seminar, a registration list is sent from the C:S office, and a copy of this list is provided to Jach before the workshop begins. Pretty basic stuff, but there you are. Also common knowledge, at least in the past, when people register or pick up their tickets, they are asked to complete a card if C:S is missing info, such as a last name, address, etc. Not earthshaking, just thought I would mention.

---

Well maybe not earthshaking but important.
Common sense in examining all the possibilities might not shake the earth but it sure can bring those less inclined back down to it.

quote:

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As I mentioned in my other post, I have been working with Lazaris and the material for over fifteen years. Actually about twenty. I have been wary, disillusioned and now alarmed by C:S and especially the triumverate, for awhile, having heard lurid and frightening tales of the forum, which I never joined. I had other reasons also, most especially my observation of Peny in person and on tape, and the extreme right-wing stuff. The Millennium really freaked me out, and I was disgusted by the hype, before, during and after, of the lousy and cheap food and decor which was crammed down our throats as being of the choicest, highest and best quality, an ongoing project of love for 2 years. The emporer/empress has NO CLOTHES. (Oh, yeah, not to mention the repulsive receiving line where i heard you had to kneel on the floor to have an audience with the high and mighty. I passed on that scene.)

---

I didn't go to the Millenium intensive but from what I hear any kneeling was strictly optional.[bg]

Of course, people might has well have kneeled the whole recieving line thing was one big "kneel" as far as I am concerned.

How could they have allowed such nonsense? I mean, it brought everyone's self respect down a notch or two.

Maybe that is what it was designed to do.

Form follows function.

Again, I say it form follows function and there are no accidents so if people were lining up to meet her like she was some friggin' queen or something it is by design, not hapenstance.

And talk about contempt for the follower. I have heard many tales of how paultry and overhyped the whole event was.

This after months of hearing how Peoney was tirelessly planning the menue etc.

quote:

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told me that "Lazaris moved Michaell down there," or something very similar.

---

Yeah, red flag time there. Lazaris discusses this from "his" perspective on "Fear the Internal War". For those willing to wade through another discussion on fear.

So much for not meddling.

quote:

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Another story that I heard, not as significant, but perhaps interesting. Again, while in the south, Peny expressed a desire to have a swimming pool. It was at this point that Lazaris informed them that physical, material stuff was the easiest of all to manifest, and I guess showed them the way. (Expensive seminars, millions and millions of tapes, bringing a rich friend down to be a part of it all?)

---

Yeah and after all the hype about how Peny had those two companies so that Lazaris and the income generated from Lazaris would never be a neccesity.

I guess that was before she discovered that only a very small percentage of the cash endowed were willing to part with significant chunks of change for big blue paintings of dolphins jumping over pyramids.

For those unaware, Peny had a company that sold "visionary" art.

Ahem.

There was also a publishing company which despite the fact that it only published 7 or so books the entire decade plus it existed was unable to keep them in print.

quote:

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I also knew someone who began to have many of the doubts and concerns raised on this site back in the late 1980s, who actually expressed these things in a reading with Lazaris. I don't remember all of what was said, although I could maybe find out.

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That would be interesting, I was unaware that people had confronted Lazaris directly with questions.

quote:

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Anyway, as I mentioned in my other post, I am still undecided about whether Lazaris is a channeled entity or fig-newton of J/P's fevered and greedy imaginations.

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I am also still weighing all the issues. One thing I have definitely come to. Who and what Lazaris is, notwithstanding, he/they are not worthy of trust.

As I have pointed out before, how can we hold Lazaris to a lesser standard of responsibility and accountability than another human being?

Cheers,

Just wanted to throw out the idea that disenchantment with Lazaris doesn't have to lead to disenchantment with metaphysics.

Many people have argued that it is important to distinguish between Lazaris and Concept Synergy so as not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

What is really being expressed in that caution/sentiment?

I think there is fear in it.

Fear that there is a danger of loosing the very real magic we all know exists if we think too clearly about Lazaris and their behavior.

Much safer to say all the bad behavior belongs to those gnarly gnomes in Orlando that got rich off of Lazaris teaching.

But that just isn't the reality we created.

Lazaris has been irresponsible to his followers or "friends" in numerous ways.

Lazaris and Lazaris alone allowed cruelty and greed to thrive under his name and with his direct and tacit endorsement of the main offenders.

Lazaris offers to be a guide through the potential perils of exploring the "mystical other" and the archetypes and yet offers no protection or guidance against the very Documented, cruel explotation of the people he calls "friends" and "magicians" by those representatives he chose to represent him and profit from his words on plain old earth.

Of course maybe the real "Lazaris" hasn't been present for years, or the real "Lazaris" isn't who he said he was or maybe never was anything other than some deep projection of an unconscious ex insurance man or the very conscious fraud of Jach Pursel. Each argument has its merit.

Regardless, the "baby with the bathwater" argument does creates the very reality it cautions against.

If you don't examine the behavior and track record of Lazaristhen you run the risk of flattening out your own metaphysics and spirituality that relies on your willingness to think, question and feel your own thoughts and feelings.

You cannot change something without acknowledging that something isn't satisfactory with what you are currently creating.

Is ANYONE even satisfied enough with the conduct of Lazaris to say that they don't want a richer, deeper more honest source of information and insight?

Metaphysics and spirituality were around long before October of 1974.

Long, long before.

Lazaris hardly owns the concept of reality creation or of any of the freedom it implies.

What we have now are a group of people who are enjoying loyalty the hardly deserve.

Their "privacy" at the expense of your self respect and genuine feelings of confusion and grief where the sudden death of Peny North and the suicide of Michaell North are concerned.

The fact that they lied and said she was fine when she was obviously very sick.

Their refusal to be responsible or in any way responsive for having subjected their followers to multilvel marketing schemes that were designed to enrich the top of the pyramid and bleed dry the bottom.

Their grevious misuse of trust in charging [AND GETTING}thousands of dollars for crystals that is worth a fraction of the cost because they implied that other sources of crystals were tainted and "negative"

Their knowledge that people were becoming spiritualy financially and mentally diminished by chasing a carrot they placed in front of them for 30 years.

And Lazaris never said a word?

We deserve better than that.

Metaphysics is real and beautiful and powerful and yes, Lazaris is right, it is so powerful you can use it to create a reality that looks as though you don't.

Seems to me that caving in to the fear that Lazaris is metaphysics and spirituality and magick is the first step in creating a reality that looks as though you have nothing to do with it at all.

Self respect, imo, demands this abuse not be tolerated under the weight of the fear that without Lazaris there is no metaphysics or freedom.

What do you think?

Jeremiah

It seems as though there is a significant piece of common ground amoungst all (or at least most) of us who post here: that C:S is not a nice group of people. Some of us believe Lazaris is exactly who they say they are, some believe Jach is a total fraud, some believe that Lazaris is real, but Jach is an impure channel, some have not reached any conclusions. Some may believe that Lazaris is seperate from Jach, but is a malevolent entity.

But it seems that the vast majority of us believe that Jach, Peny and the Orlando Gang are not the kind of people we want to emulate, nor do they represent the ideals of the Lazaris Material.

I'm of the group - in case anyone hasn't noticed - that believes that the phenomenon is an outright fraud. Possibly Jach has some minor psychic abilities. Possibly he has tapped into some information from the Collective Unconscious. But I don't think there is a being on the Higher Realms that calls itself "Lazaris" and has chosen to speak exclusively through Jach.

Though I think there is some good stuff in the material, I will not be using it for several reasons:

1. I don't trust the source, and therefore don't trust that the information is any more valid than information I can get elsewhere.
   
2. I don't want Jach in my subconscious
   
3. I want to be clear that my ideas are my own, not "Lazaris'".
   
4. I can't stand to listen to that bogus accent anymore.

I'm interested in what others, with different beliefs, feel is a practical approach to this situation. If one distrusts C:S, does it still make sense to work with the material? If Jach is an impure channel, does it make sense to work with the material? What are the potential benefits and risks involved with using the material? Can Lazaris and C:S really be compartmentalized? What if it were to be proven that Jach is faking it? Are there other alternatives to the beliefs I presented above?

For months, I have been sorting through all the years of my witnessing inconsistencies surrounding Lazaris and C:S which I had put down to my own ignorance in the past, but which, after Penny's death, and thus more intense questioning, became clearer to me as irrefutable evidence that Jack Pursell initially set out to deceive his wife, Penny and eventually, everyone else who came to think of themselves as "mapmakers," most likely never forseeing the extent to which his deceit would reach.

Firstly, it just has never made sense to me after all the years of being a FOL (friend of Lazaris) that Lazaris could claim to never interfere, but would also call Michael Prestini on the phone and bring him to move in with Penny, thus separating her from her husband and making the husband be a sort of servant to him, not even referring to him by name because, he claimed, it was too difficult to say, despite his ability to say many other alliterative words.

Plus, after watching the terrible TNT "Mists of Avalon" mini-series this summer where the goddess was so clearly a manipulating, conniving, self-involved and wreckless woman who did everything in the name of a "greater good", I was reminded of the tale we have been told by Concept:Synergy to believe since day one: that because of the greater good of Lazaris coming to reach mankind because we "asked, as a humanity, for that help," he had been spending lifetimes "nudging" Jack and Penny closer together, making sure that they would not make any choices which might have had them not be present at this, the most "monumental" time in human history, but would instead be together for helping "birth the new world."

Furthermore, we are told that "Peny was the one we came to touch, we love you [Peny]." This was also the sort of mantle Morgan Le Fay had to wear in the story--to her great things were given (power) and so great things were then expected (sacrifice). Morgan Le Fay ends up having to sleep with and bear the child of her half brother in order to unite the two worlds of Faery and Human and keep Avalon, though hidden, still powerful and the countryside peaceable.

So, if what Lazaris says is true, then because the world needs saving, and Faery and Human need to be reconciled (as is the premise of the Faery workshops, which I have attended), then it was necessary for Penny and Jack to have to sacrifice their marriage and perhaps any other lessons they might otherwise have chosen in other lifetimes when Lazaris was there doing his "nudging."

That would make Jack and Penny martyrs.

That would mean they had been denied full responsibility for their choices, that they were having their lives meddled with by something other than God/Goddess, which is a questionable comparison anyway since we are also told by Lazaris that God and Goddess do not meddle in our lives, but always, only say "yes".

It would mean that Jack and Penny were chosen and clearly implies that they are somehow elevated in their sense of enlightenment and bear the responsibility of helping to enlighten others.

Now, martyrhood wouldn't be much to fret over except that a basic tenent of what Lazaris teaches is that martyrhood is an absolute robbing of one's power and that it makes one abusive in the name of love. He tells us that martyrhood is like pregnancy: you are either in martyr or you are not and that when you are in a martyred state of being, you absolutely, positively are not also be in a state of loving. They "cannot coexist." He says so over and over on his tapes, particularly the one on Martyrhood.

To take this to its natural conclusion then, following my premise that this is all contrivance, then Jack and Penny are incapable of truly loving anyone because they are too busy saving and manipulating people from...what? From not waking up to becoming the mapmaker they are, presumably.

In Jack's case, perhaps, from Penny to actually seeing through Jack's game.

A long time ago, I met some people who were "kinda" into Lazaris but were also busy working with a channeled entity of their own. I asked them why they bothered to do this and they thought "why not?" Besides, Lazaris was not for everyone, and not everyone liked to be around the Concept:Synergy people anyway. I asked them what they thought of Lazaris and about the troika. They said that Lazaris was sometimes interesting, sometimes not--I was shocked! How could Lazaris ever be uninteresting? But, that is part and parcel of what happens when you stop considering outside sources...what happens when you think you have found a safe, irrefutable source of all the mysteries and answers which otherwise might bedevil you into fears and paralysis.

That is what happens when you cease to keep thinking and evaluating because your "source" keeps telling you that they will never take your power away and because now that they have entered your life, you will "never be alone again." Why muck about with doubt when all this is at your disposal?

The other thing they said which always stuck with me was that the reason Jack divorced Penny was that she was too intense and he could barely take the pressure of being with her all the time. So, it was a sort of relief when Michael showed up, suitcases in hand, on the Pursells' doorstep, as directed by Lazaris, and had come to marry Penny.

But, I wonder if that is true, or if it is only somewhat true. Maybe Jack was not able to ever please Penny, afterall, we have been told by everyone including Lazaris that Jack is a three enneagram type, which would predispose him to being motivated to always win mommy's praise, or whomever else's praise he projected mommy onto. Could it be possible that Jack, in the guise of what even he convinced himself was some "objective channelled entity", called Michael himself and said it was time for him to come and be with Penny?

Perhaps Jack really was tiring under the strain of Penny's abuse and harshness--and for anyone who says this must have been the way she ended up in later in life, there are reams of very credible stories of how Penny was never anything other than monsterously intense (read: rude) to people around her--and needed to find another way to please her without also having to sleep with her.

Perhaps she was telling him he was a loser and was threatening to divorce him and he would rather be in her life as a servant than not be in her life at all.

If it seems farfetched, I suggest considering the obsession Penny had with the Clintons. This is not meant at all to become a discussion about the rights and wrongs of the Clintons, nor a political diatribe by me, and thus I plead, please don't let it to be one for anyone else, but I do think it is evident that Bill Clinton, whom I would concur with Lazaris is a three enneagram type, was willing to do whatever was expedient to be able to continue getting whatever he wanted, regardless of the effect on others.

I wonder if Penny's obssession with them was due to a low-grade energy that she knew somehow, that this energy was very present in her life already.

If the Clinton example annoys you and gets in the way of following along, perhaps consider her also strangely obssessive but celebrated (!) need to watch shows such as Big Brother and Survivor, which emphasize doing what is expedient in order to triumph, regardless of what that might mean to fellow travellers on the path.

The Sopranos, her other favorite show, might also be another example, but at least in that show, there still remains a committment to a code of honor, depite a ruthlessness which pulses below it all.

All this, while, if what we are told to belive is true, would indicate that the most enlightened among us is more interested in cheering for the most ruthless rather than extending kindness to people who might need it most.

I will go to another post and continue so this isn't excessivley long...

Pippa

Well, but Lazaris can see us in all our humanity, he can see us in the range of emotions and choices we might make, you might argue. That is why Penny's apparent lack of discerment with how to spend her time acting as one of the most enlightened mapmakers, if not THE most enlightened mapmakers, on earth would not concern Lazaris.

Well, since I can't take Lazaris on in an argument here since he won't show up, I will tell you that when I try to swallow that along with the sentence I clearly heard him say, as did many others I have talked to, that we, as mapmakers, "know more about spirituality than anyone else on the planet" and then chase it with a shot of how I witnessed Penny and Jack both act towards not only me, but others, when they had no reason to be anything other than pleasant, I have to say it doen't digest. I can't swallow it because it is utter shit.

Forget about then serving me the sentence straight out of the Interview books where Lazaris says that "other times we work with Peny and her process and her programmings, though those times are less and less necessary."

How on earth could this be possible when she was publically threatening to slap people with whom she didn't agree, when she was trumpeting that she was seeking to postpone menopause and ended up post-poning life? How could this be so when she was very clearly codependent with a very nasty, Proustian bitch of a man who shares perhaps Penny's only true legacy--that of ruining people's hearts and reputations for sheer sport borne of insecurities and arrogance towards those not as clever as they felt themselves to be?

To claim she was only human would be a much easier sale if she wasn't also being touted as above the basic processing necessary to maintain human decency and kindness.

In his eulogy speech on the "Read Only" thread memorializing Penny, Eagle Man notes that people often thought Penny was being unfair or unkind, but that they just didn't understand. Also, that she had a wicked sense of humor. Perhaps that is code for: Penny was a martyr who liked to make fun of people.

There are plenty of posts in here documenting Penny's special bent for tormenting people whom she ostensibly cared about. I have written some here and in the other Lazaris discussion group, and others have also detailed their experiences. I also know that it wouldn't take long if you just approached people in a random fashion at any seminar and asked them if they had ever witnessed strange behavior by the most enlightened woman, and you would quickly find yourselves to the gills with information. Decide from it what you will, but be intellectually honest and ask if she acted like a woman whom you would like to emulate.

As to the arguement that it is impossible for a single person, Jack Pursell, to have accomplished all this unless he was in fact channelling, I do think he is channeling. There is no way he isn't channeling.

But, as anyone reading along who has ever done body work, Tarot readings, or any other sort of energy work can most likely attest, tapping into the source which IS isn't that difficult and is in fact each and every one of our right to do. And, once tapped into that source, many things can come to light which otherise might be obscured.

Add to that the experience I had while studying briefly with a Voodoo priest: first of all, if you don't believe it, then it just isn't going to affect you nearly as much as if you do. That is why if a person clearly was determined that Voodoo was not going to harm them and was very clear on that, then most likely, any voodoo for good or ill was going to just whiz by that person and they would be unaffected.

Secondly, if you let yourself open up enough, you can start to let many truths form and take shape. I used this technique in bodywork I did at that time, and I also would use voodoo sorts of techniques to meditate and lo and behold! I am a channel! I would do basic massage work for people and be able to start telling them things about themselves which they thought were amazing, but were probably, as Katie points out, them filling in some of the blanks without even realizing I wasn't necessarily reading the whole picture; and were also my clearer ability to tap psychically into their energy force.

The more you believe you can access this information, then the more I believe you will be able to do this. And, whether the negative ego exists or not, I am not even sure at this point, but there is definetly the opportunity to abuse the information once you receive it.

As an example, I read recently about a priest who was intended to work in a Bronx parish but was sent to Puerto Rico first because he needed immersion in Spanish. He didn't speak it well and he, frankly, hated that he had to do this at all. Why not just speak English?

After a little learning of the Spanish language, just a few weeks on the island, he miraculously gives an entire mass in Spanish. Much to his dismay and still his dislike, he decides he can't deny the gift he has obviously been given to tap into this so, he goes back to the Bronx and ministers to the Spanish community.

The story is in the Wall Street Journal about two weeks ago, on the front page, under a title indicating a clash between Mexicans and Dominicans, if you're interested.

So, he tapped in and got the information he didn't have until he needed it for the sake of spiritual enoightenment, and because he felt responsible to his parrishoners. I don't think he abused the power to tap the current, but I think Jack is abusing his "tap", and I also think that Jach feels he must continue his "ministry" since he obviously has this "gift" and because I think he got trapped by it.

More in Post 3

Pippa

This is why I say that Lazaris is not who he says he is, and not that he is a fraud entirely.

I think that the initial beginnings were contrivance. I don't think there was any talk in the beginning about any of us being map makers. I think that came later after the initial useful information about psychology and structures for deprogramming harmful patterns in ourselves were exhausted and then the "real adventure" began with us going/coming home and saving the planet, all because most of the more useful information had run its course.

So, if Jack really is channeling, then why am I saying this is not all it is cracked up to be? Because the initial premise, I belive wholly, was to manipulate Penny, to keep her in his life and to make her happy, but not by honest means. Therefore, whatever the affect Lazaris has had in our lives, the origin is not clean.

At this point, at the point where it became about going home/coming home, I suspect that Jack was trapped into the game, that Penny's MONSTEROUS ego, like the plant in the Little Shop of Horrors, was busy breathing down Jack's neck "Feed me, feed me!" and he was stuck with it.

Plus, as example, look at another Enneagram 3, as Lazaris claims him to be, OJ Simpson. This man, to most, is a murderer. But in his own mind, he has decided he is innocent and unjustly pursued. Hitler thought the same thing. Hitler is also the one who said that if you tell yourself a lie long enough, you will believe it is the truth.

I think Jack has very ably tapped into the energy available to us all, and has gotten better and clearer over time. But, the information itself has been less useful to people in their practical lives and necessarily separates us from the "consensus of which [we] are still a part" because you can't know more than anyone else on the planet about spirituality, be here making maps for their safety and homecoming and not start becoming a tad more special than the rest of the unwashed masses. It reminds me of that bumper sticker: "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven."

You could argue that is a very loving thing that Christianity does for its followers, not demanding perfection, but it also, gives them license to do whatever they want and still not have to answer to anyone else's code of conduct. Read: be better than!

Recall how Penny remarked that she didn't like being in public because the resonance was too low. How much disdain she had for the unwashed she was busy saving with her maps of unheretofore seen humanity.

You can also argue that every thing I am using to deconstruct Lazaris he himself has said is true. He has reminded us that we are a part of the consensus, as I referenced above, but why would he have to keep telling us that unless maybe to remind us so we would stop questioning it and go on thinking that because Lazaris said we are a part of the rest of the world, it is okay to save it from itself and thus, be more enlightened than it.

It is absolutely fair to say that anyone who spends time working on spirituality, an initiate so to speak, is going to know more about spirituality than others, but only in the sense that they know what Penny herself called the "long division" of it, the mechanics of it. That is no guaruntee that they know the practical living of it. Look at the number of priests who are "subhuman" in their actions, again to borrow from Lazaris who probably borrowed from someone else. Look at Penny's life itself.

So, Jack channels great information, but he also "borrows" it and recycles it. I won't say he plaigerizes it, because how does one plagiarize spirituality? But, a big fat clue as to what is really going on is this: the name itself "Concept: Synergy." They take various concepts and they synregize them as their own.

Have you read the Celestine Prophecy? The Four Agreements? Shirely MacLaine's The Camino? Have you read any of Seth? This information is out there. That Lazaris synthesizes it so briliiantly is interesting, is perhaps even convenient, but it is still artifice.

And, artifice which greatly benefits Concept:Synergy in that it has the nerve to not only ask for payment for the information, an arugable point which many can successfully contend isn't such a problem, but then confer the specialness of the information onto asking for upwards of twenty thousand dollars for crystals which one can purchase elsewhere for two or three thousand.

If this is still too far fetched, I suggest this: Lazaris says often that one needn't use him as the ultimate source for information, that he does in fact borrow from many sources out there. Well, then I ask, why, if the information is out there elsewhere, are we some set of special "mapmakers"? What about the people using the material they find elsewhere, but which is also the very same that Lazaris uses? They don't know as much about spirituality as we do because they got their information for $20 at Borders Books instead of at a $600 intensive sponsored by Concept: Synergy?

And, the suggestion on-line to Penny that crystals could be purchased for less elsewhere was met with anger and derision of the other crystal retailers and the thread disappearing almost immediately off the Forum.

Isn't it possible that Jack, apparently, as Lazaris says, a celibate now that Penny has Michael, and thus relieved of any obligations to a relationship, sexual or otherwise, uses all his free time to cull what he likes out of all the available information out there, combines it with the true energy he is channeling, and lets it rip?

No, no, no!! If that is what you are thinking, I thought that, too, but then I started to at least consider that maybe it was a terrific performance. That my initial belief that Jack Pursell is just no way near smart enough to have ever pulled this off was premature.

Why isn't it possible like already discussed on this site by Jade that when enough people show up with all these wonderful expectations and open, honest hearts expecting to have healings and changes and expecting to save the world with meditation, and expecitng Lazaris to be fabulous, why isn't it possible that he is fabulous?

If our energy can affect the world and save it from destruction and Orion invaders--and maybe that has been truly happening, but in churches they get that privellege of affecting the world energetically with prayer for FREE, not
$600--why can't it also make Jack a great performer? Why can't he just tap into the flow of our positive love and expectations and support for him and let it rip?

Was the priest who claimed he gave the mass entirely in Spanish a liar, or did he benefit from the love and energy of the parrishoners and thus sail on smartly in Spanish, touching each of their hearts with perfectly conjugated verbs and properly cased nouns?

More in Post 4

Pippa

Then, if all this started as a way to keep Penny cosseted in her ego and Jack attached to her through his, then not only have so many of us been snookered, but Penny was the biggest loser of all. She is dead and isn't going to get a second chance, not in this lifetime anyway.

But, as Lazaris says, Oh, well..there are other life times. Not if Penny was correct though in that she said it was her last lifetime, not if Lazaris was correct and she had no more processing to do.

She lost out on the chance to know the truth and to really get her act together. It is intellectually dishonest to say that Penny Prestini (Peny North) died having left a beautiful spiritual legacy. Read the reams of information here and on the other Lazaris website, and perhaps think of your own experiences and witnessing on the Jach and Lazaris Room. How can this woman be said to have elevated above the need to work through even the most basic of constricting emotions, like anger?

If I am correct, then Jack tricked her for his own means. He robbed her of the chance to grow. And, Michael Prestini, too. Penny was greedy and self absorbed enough to go for it, and perhaps Michael was too. But they are dead, Penny is the only one being eulogized, Michael is a foot note in the annals of Concept: Synergy, and Jack is left alone with his cool millions and his particualr legacy of deceit.

We, however, are still here, we have the chance to walk away, or even to remain in the fold of Lazarisites. But, no one can say that we didn't get the opportunity in the year of mystery to see the prison which was once our freedom, heal it magically, recovering the steps of our legacy of the ancients, protected by the the tradtion of our heritage, on our pathway home to the Goddess.

Good riddance to the map making I have known.

Pippa

Pippa, thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts out in such a clear manner. You have come to the same fundamental conclusions as I regarding the raison d'etre of Lazaris. Whether Peny was a conscious conspirator or not is pretty much irrelevant to me, although very interesting nevertheless. I believe that her paranoia, and the inherent paranoia within the organization to be indicative of some sense she had that there was much to hide. Even if Jach, as I believe, concocted this entity on his own, I find it impossible to believe that neither Peny or any of the Gangsters ever once questioned the veracity of it's existance. Somewhere inside all of their twisted little minds lives the truth.

As interesting and important as it is to deconstruct the existance of this Lazaris creature, I believe it is far more important to deconstruct the teachings and information themselves.

There seems to be a strong desire for most of us to continue to lend credibility to those teachings which over the years we have embraced and incorporated into our belief systems and behavior patterns. For me, it is now essential to view them with as much suspicion as I do any information which has come out of Con:Sin.

The analogy I made yesterday in conversation with Ted is that if you have a ball of tangled yarn, it makes no sense whatsoever to begin knitting with it until all the knots and tangles are out. As Ted suggested, maybe it's better to just get a new ball of yarn and start fresh.

As they say, if you throw enough mud at a wall some of it will stick. I'm sure that in all that body of information there are some bits that are keepers. But, how do we know unless we place each of them under the same microscope that we are using to evaluate the organization itself?

It is a matter of concern to me that throughout all this doubting there is still little acknowledgement that the materials themselves might not be any more valid than the claims "Lazaris" makes about Peny.

I agree that Jach very well may be channelling, but with the disclaimer that I believe we all channel on a regular basis. There seems to be a state of mind that allows for the flow of information or even energy to come through. I know this very well as a cook, that in the process of preparing a dish there sometimes comes an almost indescribable moment of "clarity", in which I am enlightened as to just what little tweak or twist will take this recipe from good, or even very good, to stellar. Whenever I get that little "rush" I know I have a winner.

Many writers have spoken also of this energy. At a writers conference many years ago Kurt Vonnegut gave a talk on this phenomena to a group of fellow authors. He stated that any honest writer would have to admit that most of the words that are attributed to them do not in fact come from the writer themselves, but from an undefinable voice, one that is outside of their own mind and experience.

I met Marion Zimmer Bradley (Mists of Avalon) back in the 80's and while she was screaming on about the stupidity of the new age concepts, channeling, etc. , she also said that "any author knows that a good book is not written but "heard". She suggested that writers learn to "listen" for their stories rather than try to just go through the drill of technique. She also stated when asked if she had ever dreamed of her characters that the Free Amazons from her Darkover series, very familiar to those of us who have followed her work, were dreamt of, and that she had great regrets for having given them voice in her books.

Marilyn Monroe also spoke of a strange shifting of consciousness when she was who she called "Marilyn".
It was an energy she could call on which would dramatically change her, with no need for make-up or costuming. She was once walking in Manhattan with a friend, dressed in a trenchcoat, scarf, and sunglasses. No one took any notice of these two ordinary looking women until Marilyn turned to her friend and said "do you want to see me be "her"? Suddenly a subtle but dramatic change came over her and she was instantly recognized and barraged with adoring fans. She had done nothing detectable to her friends eye, but the change was irrefutable.

I believe these all to be examples of channelling. Again, I believe we all have those flashing moments, or even extended sessions of becoming a vehicle for some energy outside of ourselves.

But, that still begs the question; what and who is being channelled? In all of these example the "subject" is reaching for something specific . For me, it's a perfect synergy of ingredients, timing, temperature, etc.
For writers it's a story line, or character. For Marilyn it was a persona. However, in none of these examples is anyone actually achieving enlightenment, or invoking some ultimate truth or incandescent wisdom. Each of us getting something directly related to our desires and intentions.

So, what is it that Jach is receiving in these channellings? Is it wisdom and truth, or is it a persona that like Marilyn's has enormous appeal?

This post is much longer than I intended, , I was only going to post a few lines, but the topic is so fascinating to me, that I feel somehow compelled and inspired to forge on.

Anyway, I really have to take off, but wanted to offer these thoughts, because I still feel a lot of concern that while we are placing the Jach show under intense scrutiny, we might not be doing the same with the materials. Ultimately it is the materials themselves which have influenced us, most especially those key issues like "negative-ego", martyr, victim, etc. which have seeped into our belief systems and influenced our thinking, behavior, and relationships. As Ted pointed out this morning, the Orb even offers up definitions for concepts such as fear and trust which have become operating principles for many of us.

I think we need to look as carefully at all of that as we do at the issues of how or why Jach is presenting this Lazaris extravaganza. There's a whole lot more to it than just a "pretty in purple" side-show.

Jade has written many great posts on this topic, as have several others here.

More later when I have the time. We're still "otherwise involved", and will be until after next week.

Pippa, would you mind sending me a quick e-mail to katie@cosmicfool.com so I can get your return address? I don't have access to it right now, but wanted to send you an e-mail.

Katie

I'm sorry if I said anything wrong, or pushed any buttons by my response to TedC. I was merely replying to the historical reference, and to the traditional role of prophets and followers. NONE of what I said had anything to do with Lazaris.

So, don't read anything into it. It was, at best, a digression to the topic. I'm sorry to cause thread drift.

For the record, here are my feelings about Jach and crew.

Lazaris doesn't exist. Jach is accessing some conscious, and some subconscious thoughts and portraying them in a fashion that is acceptably "new age". It's not that difficult to generate this kind of self-induced schizophrenia. Whether it was a sincere attempt at spirituality once upon a time is irrelevant.

Linguists, psychologists, medical people, and philosophers have explored the channeling phenomenon for decades and there is not a whit of evidence that any of the purported entities actually exist.

And really, with all the profound thinkers, all the sincerely religious, all the deeply mystical people in the world, this "higher entity" is really going to select a twenty-something insurance salesman to convey his message of wisdom because the insurance guy has a girlfriend that the entity admires? Gimme a break!

It's pretty simple, really. Michaell was the researcher and scriptwriter, Peny was the promoter, and Jach is the frontman. It's a very lucrative business.

The trouble is that they anchored their business in a couple of valid concepts. That's what causes all the confusion. It's also the way out.

If the concept "you make your own reality" is at all valid (and I believe it is), then you can create believability where none exists; you can create entities, demons, and angels that will be completely real to you.

If you create your reality, then you can channel if you want to, you can do automatic writing, you can scry and interpret symbols.

You can also write sonatas, make great paintings, and write great books. It's the nature of creativity. But people don't seem to get the idea that "you make your own reality" means just that. You are the author of your own perceptions, beliefs, and reactions.

Jach knows this, as do most con men, charismatics, and even great leaders. They don't create the experience, they provide the means for others to join in the creation of the experience, and a movement is born.

Many people would pass by a Lazaris seminar and murmur "grifter". Others stop to listen to the profound thoughts. It's the same Jach, and the same seminar. The difference is in how an individual chooses to perceive it.

And if the entity doesn't objectively exist, then the entity can't be "evil", or "good", or "enlightened"...it just Jach.

If you want evidence that Lazaris is not the "enlightened being with profound knowledge", ask a few simple questions.

Back in '86 Lazaris (on the Merv Griffin show) chortled that "we know of such things" when Merv submissively announced a television commercial. Well, if the great Orb understands media marketing then he ought to be able to utter a few coherent sentences in another language. Pashtu, perhaps?

No entity has ever maintained a conversation in a language non-native to his channel, much less faithfully reproduced a dialect that is even a few hundred years old.

No entity has ever made any reference that didn't fall within the realm of conventional western social history and experience. Ask Lazaris to give his followers a sufficiently detailed description of an evening meal on the Mongolian plains in the late 1300s.

Lazaris rambles on about places like Atlantis, Lemuria, and King Arthur's court. All are unverifiable historically. How about asking him to provide six sequential figures in the Sumerian alphabet, or a knight's name for the pommel on a horse's saddle?

It ain't gonna happen.

End of full disclosure.

Regards,

George

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Originally posted by TedC:
[B]WA,
The question does become interesting when L is granted authenticity. Perhaps his motive could be the same as J’s, power over, adulation, creating dependence. Perhaps non-physical entities can get a “hit” in attracting the attention of physical beings like ourselves. Nevertheless, legitimate material has been offered.

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Hi TedC

I believe there are 4 main options:

Lazaris is Jach and it's a conscious fraud for money and power.

Lazaris is some aspect of Jach and it's an unconscious fraud. (This brings in the whole issue of Jach's influence on the message.)

Lazaris is who he says he is and is here to love and help humanity simply for the opportunity to love.

Lazaris is a malevolent entity.

The question of the value of the material can be asked for any of the above possibilities. That isn't what interests me at the moment, however, since I feel I am the one who creates the value in anything I experience or hear. Hell, a child sees a lot of value in the candy and smiling face of a stranger offering to be a friend before experiencing abuse. That doesn't mean it was worth it!

If the question is more along the lines of if there is absolute truth in the material, that is a different question. Both would be good for a topic by themselves. However, the main thrust of this topic, as I understand it, is to explore the POSSIBILITY that Lazaris is a malevalent entity. I will stay away from terms like antiChrist and evil because there is so much from Chrisianity and Hollywood that will only cloud this discussion.

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Does L manipulate to create such worship? You mention one thing specifically having to do with this, touting seminars as the opportunity of a lifetime. Katie has mentioned love-bombing, the use of “we love you” phraseology to create emotional dependence. I myself have heard L say that there are no requirements to take any particular seminar, where you’re at is where you’re at and it’s the best place to begin. I don’t dispute what you have heard. Touting any particular seminar as “the opportunity” is creating fear and dependence. It would make me concerned if I heard it.

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One of the earliest and most vulnerable things we become aware of in our childhood is the need to belong, and the absolute feeling of fear and sadness if we feel left out. Shunning is an ancient and still effective way of dealing with those who don't fall in line. So telling me I don't have to come or buy any tapes while at the time making it clear there is a special magical spiritual party going on that I will miss isn't really letting it be OK if I do or don't go, is it? And further more advertising that it may be critical to our growth or the only true thread home isn't letting it be OK if I don't go either. It sets up a feeling of missing out, of not belonging, and in fact, of doing damage to myself by not going.

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The love-bombing to me is more interesting because I have the tape, Feeling More of the Love, or whatever it was called, that was specifically directed at feeling L’s love. I really liked that tape when I heard it but I did wonder what it meant that he loves us but how am I supposed to know that in my everyday life? How does L interact with us to create a love that is actually real? Well, the truth is, he doesn’t (at least outside the seminars, which I’ll get to). We interact (or attempt to do so) and if we don’t get it, then something is wrong with us. I wound up shrugging this off back then, maybe because I’m not so in touch with that particular emotion even with physical beings! But now I think Katie was right, L manipulates big time with the love-bombing, at least on tapes.

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Most of my friends pick up the phone and call me if they haven't seen me in awhile. They check up on me and tell me they miss me if I dont' come around. So....Lazaris, give me a call and we'll talk. But I'm not getting out my charge card.

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I have been in seminars where L is interacting directly and when the exchange is over, the person has said how much they love L. And I have felt it too. The feeling was very palpable and not because of L professing love but from the way he interacted, loving was about the only way to describe it. And this was not an isolated incident, it happened many times.

What conclusions to draw from this? I think it can be read either way. Love-bombing is a technique that can create emotional dependence. L uses the technique on tapes. L in person does project loving concern and caring. I don’t think it’s reasonable to make a blanket statement that L is manipulating for a devious purpose. It may be that love can be experienced in a non-physical context, I’m sure many Christians would profess such a relationship with Jesus. You and I don’t have it with L. It doesn’t mean that something is wrong with us nor do I think it means something is wrong with L for holding it out as a possibility.

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First of all, how many times was there not a problem with the person?

Second, who was in charge?

Third, wasn't it interesting how impressed people were by Lazaris?

Fourth, what better way to become more powerful than to take the role of the authority who knows better than you do what is going on with you and your life.

Fifth, maybe it was real. That is what we are exploring.

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You bring up the issue of money. It’s a good one. Should L charge for seminars and tapes? A couple things to consider. People do put time and effort into setting up and running the seminars and creating and distributing the tapes. Should they be reimbursed? The question probably isn’t about fair reimbursement but fair value. Were you ripped off? I think only you can answer this question and as such, whether the charging of money is reasonable or not cannot be used as a blanket indictment of L. To some, it may certainly raise suspicions, for others, it may be cheap at any price. We all pretty much knew what we were getting buying a tape or seminar. At the time, it wasn’t a problem. That it may be a problem now speaks more to fact of other concerns of L’s legitimacy than directly to this one.

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A 27,000 square foot beach house in West Palm Beach. A 20,000 square foot house in Orlando. Good grief. Follow the energy, the flow of money. That speaks volumes. And the set-up for the events is almost free (the seminar rooms are usually thrown in free if enough event guests stay in the room "blocks", and the selling stuff were by unpaid people (except for one or two on the expensive crystals). And how much to make a tape and copy each tape?

One possibility that I deluded myself with for years is that Lazaris only wants to talk with those who can create enough success to aford these things.....a weeding out sort of process. That it wasn't about the money, but about pre-selecting those who made it high enough priority and who had enough magic to create the ability to go. Arrogance.

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You raise the fact that L’s closet human associates had rather unseemly endings. Many people have come to bad ends, this does not necessarily mean the ideals they supported were corrupt. It does give one pause that all L’s teachings seem to come to naught in his foremost disciple. IMO, there is nothing defensible about either one of them. What reflects badly on L for me however is not how they wound up (which was probably appropriate given the understanding of the material they seemed to have) but the praise he lavished on them. What made them such jewels? Nobody seems to know. L does take on a fragrant odor here for which I have no explanation. This and the fact that he lied about the deaths is the foundation on which my questioning rests.

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Well, it all began to unravel for me over the deaths. Something is WRONG! Just plain old fashioned WRONG here. It smells. And IF Lazaris had said something right away like "yes, we tried to get Peny to do this or that, but you know free will and all that", then I might have gone merrily on. Or if he had explained Michaell as screwing up and not nobelizing something that is just plain anti-life, I might have swallowed it. So here are the questions and thoughts I have on this:

Does Lazaris make us stronger in living life physically? Does he help us prefer what is good for us? Is it arrogant to "rise above reality" and look upon physical consensus reality with suspicion instead of experiencing deeply the rich experience of everyday life? Does he create a disatisfaction that is unhealthy? Is the imagery and idealism of the meditations against the physical senses and good living? (Lazaris has never been physical, and has recently commented on how happy he is with that decision. Is that a put-down for us beings who are physical?) Is Lazaris grounded in life instincts? Is it a way of life or a mind set, philosophy, mind-f*ck? Does it help us have a life of living unity between god/ess and humankind? Is there a hatred of reality being fostered? Isn't the way of dying an example that speaks volumes? Does Lazaris promise everything and deliver nothing?

"Truth has already been stood on it's head when the obvious attorney of mere emptiness is mistaken for it's representative." (Nietzsche)

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You pose sinister questions at the end of your first post, I believe as a reflection of how L or true L believers might view your inquisitive mind. I have no such judgements. L himself supports the thesis, antithesis, synthesis view of reality and we are practicing no less. There is nothing wrong with asking questions and seeking one’s own answers. L encouraged it. Those who would judge you for it miss the essence of the materials, which is a seeking and embodying of our own true spirituality.

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My point here is not to dissuade you from any conclusions you may have come to own your own. They can indeed be true for you where someone else would have a hard time understanding. My own feeling is that L offers something of value while at the same time fostering a dependence in those so inclined. L is also not all he says he is and so must be looked at with a wary eye. I understand how the question of his true motive can arise. And while it’s certainly possible that it may be more suspect than one might think on first glance, real evil for me is not in evidence. I invite you to look through my reasoning in the same way I have looked through yours. While we do not have to agree, understanding of both sides I believe is well within our reach.

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And I would suggest to you that real evil would wear a friendly face of love and have a beautiful philosophy with which to take you down. If it didn't have any value, if it were obvious, there would be no one at the seminars and no one would buy the tapes.

So, no conclusions yet. No evidence except on the effect on our physical/spiritual life. But a valid thing to consider.

"When the centre of gravity of life is placed, not in life itself, but in "the beyond"--in nothingness--then one has taken away its centre of gravity altogether."
Nietzsche

YES, this is a very important point you make,,,

We must get our info from wherever we can,,,as we cannot ask questions..!

That is (IMO) the biggest part of being a brain-washed cultified person...you do NOT any longer ask questions, and /or you only take the ANSWERS fed to you by the cult leader, everything.... cuz this leader knows the SEcrets of the universe don't they...of they are a direct link with the almighty aren't they... so give it up, give up your discretionary instincts..

You also make a point I'd like to address cuz it has made me so mad over time...

during the personal bizzarus consultations..
when people who had been HURT by Peny and voiced their feelings and deep questions that this inconsistency created, they were answered with INVALIDATION............
"that's not how "we" see it"

WELL, hell...I'd say to bizzarus-SO WHAT- you have a person who is telling you they are hurt, or confused etc. and bizzarus would DEFEND that..!! hell...no--- you address the persons feelings or their REALITY.....oh compassionate ONE

wouldn't you?? wouldn't a friend? wouldn't a being who knows you better than you know yourself? wouldn't a being who is there even when you don't feel good enough to ask for help, wouldn't a being who you've paid for a private consultation and waited many months for, wouldn't the being that helped your higher self get in touch with you.. etc etc ad-nauseum...

I dunno maybe I just Expect TOOO TOOO much from an ORB that had promised and spouted soo much love(bomb)...

This thread got me thinking about how I arrived at my own conclusions. I'd like to put my 2 cents in, or 40 cents because the post is long. I think we have all had a whirlwind year, with many changes and many impactful truths. I certainly am not where I thought I'd be at the beginning of the year, but I am also very grateful for being where I am now. This board has really helped me heal. If that is not the stated mission of CF, it is certainly how I have used it. I hope the lurkers will keep drifting back and checking things out.

I wanted to respond to a few things here because they did plug me in to my journey out of the Lazaris material.

Katie, you said at the first post of the thread:

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You have to wonder if these loyal, loving, allegedly conscientious "magicians" are taking into account the feelings of the person they are shutting out. This exchange is going on between "friends", people who regard each other as "spiritual family".

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You also make another point, Katie...

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The other thought is that people who are thinking and behaving this way consider themselves to be powerful enough magicians to save the planet from every possible horror. They are allegedly "birthing a Virgin Future".

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Katie, you also state:

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In this Future world they are birthing, I wonder if anyone will be allowed to think or ask questions.

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My doubts about Lazaris first came up around this issue: the combination of the "future virgin world", and the whiffs I got of the talk on the Con:Syn forum. I was never involved in the forum, and I don't know Jach (and didn't know Peny or Michaell), but I heard some very ludicrous decrees on politics by Peny. I remember someone touting Bob Barr, or was it Ken Star--PULEESE!--as a great American hero. I'm not sure if it was Peny who did the touting, but she definitely agreed. I heard about the bashings that happened there, and some people I knew were involved on both sides. I steered away from the forum because I wasn't interested in anything Jach or Peny said, and didn't share their political views, but I was interested in Lazaris. I got the impression at that time that forum heads weren't open to discussion, but were more interested in developing a consensus. And, I wondered why Lazaris was so laissez faire through all of this.

Katie, in another statement you say:

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I'm sure that reading here hurts some people.
Some who have posted here scream loudly how much they've been hurt.

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Mickey, you said about the silent lambs:

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There has to be a part of them that knows the things that go on in the forum aren't quite right. How those that read the report concerning Peny's death can overlook the facts is beyond me.

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Mickey, you also say:

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I believe they are terrified that the facts are true and want to pretend that everything is ok. That way they can hold onto the dream of lazaris and the one they are building for themselves. If they admit lazaris has been a lie then it means they have been living the lie for how many years they have invested in it.

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Out of that cowardnice is hostility directed towards anyone who wants to discuss the facts and what the truth may be.

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Pete, you say:

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Has anyone ever come to this board, seriously defending Lazaris and Concept:Synergy?

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From what I read of Brad's posts, he doesn't consider himself to be an authority on the Lazaris material. But, it seems he does have an affinity for the material even though his experiences with L have been few.

In Brad's first post, 10/19/01 (12:22PM), he says:

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I have been to a few weekend seminars as a guest of C:S, but have not attended any live events for several years. I own one book by Lazaris, and engaged in one half-hour telephone reading with Lazaris, about five years ago, part of which impressed me positively. That is the extent of my involvement in Lazaris teachings.

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Now, Pete, I'd like to talk about the flame issue because it deserves some attention. I'm curious about ahy you brought it up. I'll share my thoughts with you, because I have flamed on this board. I have had to make choices about my flames--to flame, or not to flame--when I come across the L defenders. I have talked myself out of many. When it comes to TedC and Chris, their gaminess was so obvious and so offensive to me, I threw off the gloves. Maybe I shouldn't out of respect for the other posters here, and even for the sake of the lurkers who are dealing with some tough issues. But, my commitment to myself is to be as honest, and that means emotionally honest too, as I can be. I don't think it will serve any of the lurkers to sugar-coat, either. If someone reads a flame and says they are avoiding CF for that reason, when the flame has nothing to do with them, that is a manipulative act. And, if someone comes here, is offended by the discourse, and proceeds to flame people, I take offense to that and may or may not return fire. My choice.

Pete, I hope you are not offended by my flames, and you have certainly not been the target. I flame for the reasons mentioned already. Again, I consider this board to also be about people's private healing experiences. Anger, outrage, hurt, pain, fear, all of those things are worthy of expression and part of the healing. Anyway, enough said.

Ciao for now,
SpiritWriter

Katie, you wrote:

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But, the point is, that somewhere inside of our conscience, somewhere in our spritual beingness, we are UNWILLING to settle for less than the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth.

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Exactly. What do we gain by lying to ourselves, especially when we are dealing with our Spirituality? What kind of message do we give ourselves when deep down we know we are living a lie and continually tell ourselves we are searching for the truth. We are definitely giving ourselves mixed messages. We say we want the truth and pretend we are getting it.

The hostility and righteous anger towards anyone wanting to discuss the "facts" covers up the lies and the inability to face them.
Blind allegiance to jach who refuses any questions on the matter. Case is closed without discussing the "evidence" and everything is swept under the rug. Now lets all pretend that those evil, hateful people who got kicked out of the forum are trying to get even for that and spreading lies about peny, lazaris and jach. Let's focus on that instead of the truth.

When I opened the e-mail from "concerned friend" I read it and I had a choice. I wanted to just delete it and not open up the cosmic fool page. I felt fear - I mean real heart pounding fear. If the information was correct (without any doubt) then I knew I would have to accept the fact that lazaris was not who he claimed to be. I didn't want that to happen.

On the other hand I knew that if it was true( no matter how painful it was going to be) I would have to give up lazaris.

I chose to find out the truth. I believe there is some truth in what jach/lazaris teaches. If there wasn't he wouldn't have had the following he had. That's not the issue though. The issue is the lies and cover-up and being told that IT WILL NOT BE DISCUSSED and when some us had the courage to confront jach we got kicked out of the forum.

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On the other hand, maybe it isn't even an issue of conscience, maybe it's simply an issue of Love. Self Love, and Love for others.

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How true. It is very self loving to be honest with ourselves even when facing a truth that hurts. That hurt will heal. When we lie to ourselves we are hurting our growth and our very self-esteem.

Craig, you wrote:

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However, no matter how many ways I choose to I look at it, it always comes back to the lies on the Hidden the Broken Alliance tape. This was said by Lazaris, not CS. I find what he said about Peny and Michaell to be indefensible and material. I can not view it any other way. I was betrayed by Lazaris.

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This was the bottom line for me. The truth was in black and white and I could no longer look the other way.

Katie,I'm glad you started this topic. If only one lazaris follower reads it and decides to start finding out what the truth is in all this it is worth celebrating. Celebrating a life and Spirituality that is based on "TRUTH" and not some truth based on lies.

A toast to TRUTH & FREEDOM and to those that are willing to stand up for them no matter what the price.

A toast to all of you (and me) who had the courage to pursue the truth in spite of the hurt and pain.

Sincerely,

Mickey