Another quickie, because the end of your post caught my eye.

I don't think anyone here was expecting any more from Lazaris than what was promised by the Orb himself.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've noticed that you seem to be doing a bit of mind reading here, such as when you hypothesized that Ted and I are believers in scarcity, which we are firmly not.

Am I reading you correctly that you are thinking that the possible problem here is that most of us had false expectations about the promises made by Lazaris, and therefore our problems with Con:Sin, Lazaris, et. al are of our own making?

quote:

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Some consider Peny's death as evidence that Lazaris didn't help her make good choices in her life. I see Peny's death as evidence that although she knew better, and so did others around her, she didn't make better choices regardless, and that is the mystery to me.

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The main issue raised here is that Lazaris claimed that Peny DID make all the best choices. Lazaris and Jach also lied about the circumstances of her death. The implications of those false claims are of great interest to many of us.

I think you really minimize the discussion by stating that the primary issue here is that the L materials didn't work for Peny.

A lot has been written here specifically about why some of us don't believe the techniques work, or that the information is coming from the source as claimed.

I'm getting the feeling that we're getting a Con:Sin inspired lecture about why we're losers and should let the whole thing go. I hope not. That would be a terrible insult to all of us, not to mention a complete dismissal of the thousands and thousands of posts written here that discuss our reasons for continuing to think about Lazaris, and for putting the hairy eyeball on the materials.

Be back later, I hope you are too.

Katie

Here I am, finding myself feeling sick all over again. You'd think my hide would be toughened by now.

What makes me sick about all of this, can I count the reasons?

You know the number one reason? Somewhere in my heart I was actually hoping that Peny did pass away quietly in the night. The thought of her painfully rotting away in her bed for months with little Mike playing physician (it was Mikey who allegedly dispensed the ill-gotten prescription meds, possibly further explaining his speedy and expedient exit from the scene), and the rest of the gang hanging about arrogantly believing that they were actually curing the poor sick debilitated creature, disturbs me beyond measure. Oh yes, isn't love grand?
Am I the only one whose nostrils are filled with the stench of self-serving selfishness?
Why didn't one of those idiots call an ambulance?

It disturbs me greatly because I have the misfortune to have had some insights into what the causes for such an inelegant and horrific end might have been. Maybe it just had something to do with the fact that Peny was shielded from the need to function on any normal level by being gifted by her adoring husband with the worlds most useless existance.

I've seen people die like Peny before. They were poor, ignorant, or depressed people who didn't have the resources, wisdom, or gumption to take the reigns and take care of themselves before their bodies deteriorated into such abysmal states.

I have posed this question here before, but it comes to my mind yet again. What is Jach's culpability here? What is the culpability of every one of those low lifes who enabled Peny by putting the daily polish on that pedestal she lived on?

If you are watching someone rotting away in front of your face do you do a voodoo dance or do you do something significant to help them? Do you continue to enable someone who has become so debilitated they cannot perform even the most mundane of chores? Someone who is in so much pain that they ultimately poison themselves from an overdose of tylenol, codeine and aspirin? Do you have any idea how much of that she had to have been taking? What the hell is wrong with those people?

Do you watch a person sit on their ever widening ass, the skin crackling off their body, and never encourage or inspire them to take a walk, eat a vegetable, see a doctor? Do you continue to supply the Haagen Dazs and chocolate chip cookies, and a bushel full of adoring, reassuring bullshit?

Lazaris uses the term "woeful self-neglect" in describing one of the symptoms of being in negative ego. How did anyone near Peny during those last years of her life not notice the symptoms? Was it negative-ego, or negative-adoration? Maybe it was just self preservation, or should I say paycheck preservation. Who can fathom?

In my opinion Jach killed Peny, and he was aided and abetted by his loving little Gang.
This illness of Peny's did not take place overnight. She was in a constant state of debilitation for years. What else can happen when someone is provided with such dramatic means to kill themselves, when they effectively are removed from the realities of life that most of the rest of us can't avoid, like making our own bed, washing dishes, doing laundry, cooking a meal, holding down a job, going to the supermarket, anything that would allow the blood to circulate and the muscles to remain functional?

Maybe if Peny had one damned purpose to her life besides living up to an impossible image she would be with us today. No wonder she was such a miserable angry bitch. She'd been slowly dying for years.

Is Peny culpable in her own death? Sure she is. She didn't have to play. But I do somewhat excuse her for caving into the allure of being spoiled, pampered, and enriched to death simply because she happened to have married the most dysfunctional human being who ever lived.

Get out your co-dependency tapes friends. This is one for the books.

Really and truly, I'm disgusted and anguished to my bones. I knew it was bad, I just had no idea how bad.

I know this news will circulate, and once again the followers will be charged with the emotional burden of finding some kind of justification. There will be no permission to discuss this, ask questions, process the information, nor will they be allowed to even actually believe it.

Everyone's heart stops beating when they die Jachass. The bit you neglected to mention, and took great pains to hide and deny is what was happening in Peny's body for the 6 months or so prior to the last beating of her heart. Too bad for you that the coroner's office didn't end up playing into your little mythology Jach. You never bothered mentioning that they were having a problem finding ONE cause of death because there were so MANY things wrong with her.

Yes, sometimes the most profound of truths abides between the words. Too bad any of us ever had to be privy to the truth that lies between yours and that fake entity you've concocted.

You are far far worse than just a cheap huckster Jach. I don't know that anyone has ever coined an adequate phrase for the likes of you.

Katie

As today's news sinks in, I find my emotions varying from the pain of compassion for Peny, to anger towards Jach and others in the C:S organization, to gratitude that this information will hopefully convince some people to re-examine their beliefs about Lazaris.

You said: Nice bag of lies.

I can not underestimate how important I perceive these revelations to be. There has been a plethora of circumstantial evidence and conclusions that have been reached prior to this information. There has also been many stories that can not be told due to people fearing what C:S may do if the stories are told. Most of the evidence points to faults with Jach, Peny, Michaell and other C:S members. While there has been some very questionable information about Lazaris, it could always be explained away by the faithful. However, we now for the first time have direct information from the PUBLIC RECORD from two sources (the statements from the Healing the Broken Alliances tape and Detective Tramonte's report). The synergy of these two sources causes me to reach the inescapable conclusion that LAZARIS lied to us.

*** THIS IS HUGE !!!! ***

It will be humorous to watch how some twist their logic to the point of breaking in an attempt to deny this conclusion.

You said: Take this one to the bank. Jach will perform his stunts to an adoring crowd per usual without so much as a ripple on the smooth surface of his saintly brow.

I hope Jach creates a new map that is different from fellow fallen mystics. The new map would be to shut down shop as quickly as possible. He could then retire with the huge inheritance all of us have given him and spend the rest of his life figuring out some way to burn off the karma he has created for himself.

I was looking for the post where you wrote about what Lazaris said at the Healing Alliances seminar (or whatever the hell it was called) pertaining to Peny's death, but I can't find it.

Someone wrote and asked what it said, and I happen to have listened to it (yucchhh) and taken some notes.

Jach, I mean Lazaris, said:

The reasons for Peny's death are private. She is loved even more now that she is dead (go figure that one out).

Peny did not die of a disease or illness, she did not die of coronary, cardiac or respiratory complications or disorders.

She died of natural causes, the coroner cannot pinpoint precisely what they were.

Peny was very impulsive, and just left and decided not to return. She was done with living. She succesfully accomplished her 2 mandatory and 5 selected life focuses. She was finished her life work.

She went out ahead of the consensus in life, and now she is beyond the beyond where words cannot describe.

She and Michaell were known for making swift and decisive actions. Now they are making maps and magic while soaring to places no one can dream of.

Now, excuse me, but what was swift and decisive about Peny's death? She was rotting away from over a year at least. She was clearly unable to walk properly into the Millennium event.

Oh Christ, what's the point?

What I want to know is why no one helped her.

Is this what Jach, Michaell, Jennifer, and the rest of those Gangsters call love?

There is no excuse, no justification, no rationalization. She was left to languish and die a slow and tortured death.

I just can't get past that.

quote:

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Well, Michaell certainly wasn't forced to live that way, he could have called a doctor.

---

The report on Peny paints quite a grim picture, just from the description of the bathroom scene. Certainly others could have done better by her, but then she could have done more for herself. I wonder if fear of her illness becoming public kept medical help out of the picture.

Also, performing CPR on a peron in a wheel chair is obviously pointless since it doesn't even work on a bed -- has to happen on a hard surface.

So I wonder where was Jach when all this was happening. When Jennifer and Michaell decided to try to lower her 300 plus pounds to the floor, why not call a man to help instead of or along with Barbara B.

Just wondering

Jade

It is clear from Katie's post in the "why are we interested" thread (where she gives her notes from the Healing the Broken Alliances tape) about the lies Lazaris told in reference to Peny.

Lazaris also lied on the tape about Michaell. Lazaris said that Michaell had a sense of integrity and commitment that was impeccable and unparalleled. However, in the police report, Jach told the detective that Michaell had a brother and parents but that Michaell cut all contact with his family several years ago. If you read the report carefully, you will see that Jach did not provide the detectives with information about Michael's ex-wife or ex-daughter. The detective had to find this out through other means . How can Lazaris claim Michaell to have such an unparalleled level of commitment? As far as integrity, what about the MLM Tradevest schemes?

Cheers, Craig

The heart disease caused the leg problems (like painful swelling, rash, possibly even skin ulcers) Whatever the condition, it was "infected," and the infection probably could have been treated with anibiotics.

When the heart isn't functioning properly, as with congestive heart failure, fluids accumulate in the legs (also abdomen). The Cardiassist machine is used to force blood from legs and buttocks back up to heart.

The Medifil II are special bandage wraps, probably used to help prevent the accumulation of more fluid, treat ruptures and to try to avoid wounds during movement.

Another symptom of congestive heart failure disease is extreme shortness of breath.
The report on Peny says she had oxygen tanks in the bedroom -- consistent with treating this particular heart disease.

Anyway, my point is to emphasize that Peny clearly had severe cardiovascular disease, and that those who cared for her certainly knew it. This cannot be dismisssed in favor of just leg problems.

Brought this to your attention because I'm sure many lurkers will be checking out both boards.

You wrote:

"As I understand it she had congestive heart failure, though the report calls it "Arterioselerotic cardiovascular disease."

I thought it might be something akin to arteriosclerosis...? I found this description of the medical use of the CardiAssist which suggests perhaps there might have been some kind of arterial hardening at work;

"It also may enhance the development of collateral mirovasculature to blocked arteries."
http://www.cardiosystems.net/physiology.shtml

Whatever the specific heart disease at work, if anyone doubts the seriousness of Peny's heart condition they should know that the
CardiAssist treatment includes electrocardiogram monitoring (the picture at this site says it all.)

http://www.cardiomedics.com/index.cfm

I knew the woman was ill but the image of her confined to a wheelchair, oxygen tanks and CardiAssist machine nearby, bovine collagen bandages on her oozing legs, drinking vodka and popping codeine to kill the pain is much worse than I'd thought--this is the drug bleary agony of a hard, hard death, better suited to a palliative care unit than a goddamn bathroom.

When I strip it all down, I come up with this; the final months of Penny North's life were reduced to looking around the room that Lazarus built and finding:

A wheelchair
Oxygen tanks
Carbon dioxide tank
CardiAssist machine
Medifil bandages
Pain killers
Multiple medical devices.

The final days of Peny North's life, watched over by her husband and friends, were spent:

Drinking vodka to kill the pain
Then popping pills to kill the pain
Using carbon dioxide to kill the pain
Bandaging her legs to kill the pain
Sleeping in a wheelchair to avoid the pain of moving.
Trying to breathe.

And her last hours on earth were marked by:

Rapid weakening
Slurred speech
Drug overdosing
Regurgitation of fluid
Respiratory failure
Botched CPR
A 911 call made too late to help.

Is *this* the gorgeous moment waiting for all friends of Lazarus, just before you meet on the other side of the bridge of belief? Is this what it all comes down to? Being flipped back in a wheelchair, your body spewing liquid, your spirit drugged into senselessness? That's the golden apple being offered by Concept Synergy?

She died worse than a stray dog--at least shelters with a kill policy don't torture the animal before putting it down.

flo

I took a very close look at the copy I received, and I'm 99% sure now that arteriosclerotic was spelled correctly. Unfortunately, this page was accidently omitted from the copy so I had to convince the Orlando folks to fax me a copy, which resulted in less than clear copy. I have changed the original post.

BTW, if anyone still feels a need to get the report, please DO NOT try to get the Orlando folks to send you a fax. They won't. They made an exception for me since it was their mistake.

You said: It isn't impossible for me to imagine that they were also all in complete denial of the extent of Peny's illness. I was told that Jach told one of the detectives that they all believed Peny was getting better. So, does that mean that Jach was in total denial and from that state of belief was providing the same info from his "Orb" self, hence the intense neglect?

While I admit to the possibility, I strongly suspect that they knew. We know Jach misled the police on many issues. When asked by detectives, he said they made their fortune primarily by day trading and some other innocuous activity. He never mentioned Lazaris which could have been billed as "personal growth seminars". I have to suspect that this omission was done to avoid publicity.

Jach never mentioned that Michaell had a daughter or was divorced. He only mentioned that Michaell had a brother and parents whom he cut off contact with. IMO he omitted this fact for one reason: $$$. I'm sure Jach didn't want the daughter to get a piece of the inheritance pie.

Jach said he thought Peny was getting better. Bullshit! I don't care how much denial your in, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that when someone's speech is sluring and they have to self-medicate with codeine and aspirin every hour and a half, they ain't getting better. If she was getting better, then what was it like before? Why would Jach lie? CYA ("cover your ass" for non-American readers).

Jach didn't tell the detective that he wasn't aware that Michaell was going to commit suicide. Further, Michaell's note suspiciously states that no one else knew of his plans. Why the hell would he waste time in his moment of grief to say that? Sounds like they had all discussed the problem. If you had a friend who said he would commit suicide if his wife died (even if you didn't believe him), wouldn't you do everything in your power to be their for your friend, even if the friend wanted to be alone?

I have to believe Jach was there before the police arrived. It is inconceivable to me that they would call only on a female living in a separate building to help with getting Peny off the wheelchair. It is inconceivable that Michaell would also not call on Jach for both an emergency Lazaris consultation and since Jach was still so in love with Peny. Motivation for covering this up? Again, CYA.

Finally, I see no mention in the reports about Jach being Peny's ex-husband. Wouldn't this be something of extreme importance in a forensic investigation involving the death of a wife and his husband? Again, CYA.

Deceipt, deceipt, and then some more deceipt. All in the name of protecting corporate assets.

Craig

Jach and Lazaris always talked about Michael like he was the high priest, such integrity and character. Interesting that Jach and Jennifer both said they knew about the suicide pact, but didn't believe the victim would do it... hmmmm.

And you know Jach was kept out of the investigators way when P died. Yes indeed so much points to protection and the greed that motivates it, it makes me sick.

quote:

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Knowing this information now, would the police think to reopen the case? Also knowing there is millions of $ on the line. Public liability (As Steve pointed out), money, control of where the business is heading...are these not grounds for a motive?

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Yes, I suppose they could be considered so. I think though, that Peny's intense state of deterioration indicated that she was a gonner anyway, if there was any deliberate overdosing it would be more appropriately considered euthanasia than murder.

The police know, as does anyone who has been involved with pain management in a terminally ill patient that sooner or later the pain meds will suppress respiration to the extent that the patient will die. Most cancer patients don't actually die of cancer, they die of over-medication. It's one of those kind of "unspoken" facts of life, that IMO are best left "unspoken" lest we get the "right to lifers" inflamed enough that they can force doctors to leave people to suffer intense and unbearable pain for months on end. (There are currently movements proposing just that)

quote:

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The question still comes back to where was Jach during her last moments?

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quote:

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Does the police know that Jach/Lazaris professes to see future events, dispense medical knowledge and be there at all times, ready for us to reach out to them? Would they understand how unusual it is that Jach/Lazaris was not there sounding the alarm that something really big was happening? Or was Lazaris so selfish that he wanted his beloved Peny all to himself and that's why he just didn't say anything at the time? OR does Lazaris simply not exist and Jach would have had no way of knowing what was happening or helping and therefore he is a fraud?

---

Well, you know my thoughts on that. Too bad Jach didn't think to spin a "loving Lazaris blending" into his story, that would have made for an inspiring twist in the saga.

As to the police understanding the claims about Lazaris, I think they did make a valient effort to figure it all out, but you have to realize that it's incredibly hard for a "non-believer" to wrap their minds around all of this. One of the advantages of "loaded language" in cults is that "outsiders" don't really ever get the significance of what is being said. Those cops would have had to taken the time to study all this crap to decipher all the nuance and hidden meanings, and I don't think they found any compelling incentive to do that.

quote:

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No matter how you slice it...it would make sense to me that the investigation was reopened.

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I don't think the death investigation has anywhere to go. Like I said, Peny was on her way out anyway.

The police have made it very clear that they went as far as they can justify going given that they have to answer to the taxpayers of Florida as to how they spend their time. Given that they have not had enough interest in the way of fraud complaints, or the ability to gather any further facts, as far as I know they've dropped the issue, at least for the moment.

What they want and have asked for are testimonials from people who feel that they have been defrauded by a Florida corporation.

There are lots of things that people could do to lobby for a further investigation, I've posted about this before. The major one would be to file a fraud complaint with the State of Florida. Another would be to get the media to take an interest. Possibly an ambitious prosecutor might be interested in a cult investigation, and have the influence to get the cops back on the job. (assuming they actually have dropped the matter, I'm not sure of that either)

We all have to keep this in context of the rest of the world though. What for some of us is a serious abuse is just a joke to others. Cults are not understood, most people believe that anyone who falls for a line deserves what they get.

To my way of thinking, the most significant benefit that could come out of all of this is that our discussions and personal investigations lead us to a much clearer understanding of the function of mind control, psychological coercion, and manipulation.

Given that very few who are aware of all this information have been able to get past even the most obvious cult ploy, the "love bombing" technique, I don't know that we will even get that far in having any impact on stopping the Jachass Purr-sells of the world.

I think we have to recognize that this is a personal quest for each of us, that the only "justice" we will achieve will be private and personal, and just let things beyond that take their course.

I've put about as much time and energy as I feel compelled to into getting facts and information out about Con:Sin. Now my personal quest is cult-awareness, and doing the inner work I need to get my perspective on beliefs cleared up.

The big questions are how and why so many intelligent sincere seekers were sucked in by this and other scams.

I think the answers to those questions hold within them the true "virgin future" where there are no more captive minds and hearts.

Katie

There are lots of theories about what the real deal is about Lazaris, as you all know, I believe "them" to be a concoction of Jach's imagination or insanity.

As I ponder the circumstances which led up to Peny's death, along with the information provided in the police report, I feel more strongly than ever that this Lazaris bit is a concotion of Jach's developed as a way to provide Peny with the fruition of her "wildest dreams".

Imagine being told that you are this incredible powerful being by an irrefutable source, having your every material fantasy fulfilled, being held in awe and admiration by all in your presence, being shielded from any and all hint of criticism and reality checks.

All this is consistant with what we know about Peny's life.

Most of us, not so "priviledged" are forced to deal with some of life's little character building common sense realities. People are allowed to dispute what we say, criticise us, and hold us responsible for ourselves. Most of us have to do our own dishes and laundry. When we get sick, we don't have the Orb living next door telling us that "they" will heal us and protect us.

My theory is that in order to degenerate into the appalling state she did, Peny had to be invested in believing that no matter what she did, she would be bailed out. For the most part, she always was bailed out by Jach and his concocted Orb. If someone said something even vaguely critical of Peny, the comment, it's causes, and the state of consciousness of the hapless person became the topic of the next seminar. Peny always had the Orb to explain away any flaws or weaknesses in Peny. She had Jach's income to provide a paid staff, well trained above all to treat Peny like an infallible being.

Most of us have a stop mechanism that causes us to think twice before reaching for the Haagen Dazs or bag of chocolate chips. We don't always succeed in talking ourselves out of doing it, but we recognize at some point that if we make ourselves sick, we will have to pay the price. I don't believe Peny believed that about herself.

Those of us who have interacted with her know that Peny was completely out of control, emotionally and physically. She did as she pleased to the roar of the admiring crowd. No one was going to give Peny any advice or reality checks, Peny after all, was the wise and enlightened one.
Her personality "quirks" were elevated to the state of Spiritual Adulthood, her viciousness alchemically transformed into her "wicked sense of humor".

Peny died because she did not believe she had to take care of herself like the rest of us. I believe that she was waiting for Lazaris to heal her, and that Jach in his pretense assured her that he would. I think everyone around her invested in that belief as well, and that is why they did not call in a doctor.

Maybe Jach spun Peny's "condition" as due to her working off one of those "mandatory" life lessons mentioned on the "Alliances" tape.

Someday, I believe, one of those sychophants will spill what was going on between Jach and Peny in regards to her illness. It will be interesting to hear.

In the meantime, I believe it is important for ALL of us to really take some time to ponder and consider the dangers and powers of denial and rationalization.

If ever there has been a wake up call to THINK and be honest with ourselves, this is it.

I would like to make some comments about the following email that was quoted:

[[[[
Lazaris said Peny didn't die of disease. He never said she didn't have a disease or illness. There's a distinct difference between the two. "Die" and "Have" are not interchangeable words.

The coroner's office had to make a report as best they could. I'm sure they were wrong if they said she actually died of the things you have said they said. That doesn't mean she didn't have those problems. Things aren't always as they seem. People even get sent to prison when they are in fact innocent. I'm sure the coroner's office reported what they thought was true, but that doesn't make it true.

I don't know who you are since you didn't sign your name to your email, but I do know I have a track record with Lazaris that proves time and time again that he is totally & completely, 100% trustworthy. So, as of now, my trust in what they told us about Peny's death is what I will believe, regardless of coroner reports or anything else for that matter. They have proven their trust to me more times than I can count. Why now would Lazaris choose to lie? I just don't buy it. They don't have anything to gain by lying to us, nor is it in their character to do so, or to even consider doing so.
]]]]]

Such blind allegiance to Lazaris!

The emailer said: Lazaris said Peny didn't die of disease. He never said she didn't have a disease or illness. There's a distinct difference between the two. "Die" and "Have" are not interchangeable words.

Fortunately, most of us do not make a distinct difference between twisting the truth way beyond its breaking point and lying. I am reminded of Clinton's definition of the word "is". I challenge anyone who says that Lazaris was not lying to do the following. Have someone who does not know Lazaris read the entire death investigation (especially after we also have the supporting detail from the coroner) and also listen to the tape. Ask person after person to do the same. Then ask them if they think the person on the tape is lying.

I understand how people who are deeply blinded by the "love of Lazaris" may never see this as a lie, no matter how intelligent they are. I would be shocked if someone who is not vested in Lazaris (assuming at least an IQ of 90) would reach the conclusion that Lazaris was telling the truth.

The emailer said: Why now would Lazaris choose to lie? I just don't buy it. They don't have anything to gain by lying to us, nor is it in their character to do so, or to even consider doing so.

The emailer is correct in asking why Lazaris would choose to lie. There would be absolutely no reason to lie if Lazaris is indeed who he says he is (an entity that is being 100% objectively channeled). However, if this is not the case, Jach/Lazaris has every reason to lie. It's called protecting your revenue base. If the true details of Peny's death were known, people would rightfully question Lazaris. In doing so, many will stop sending their money to CS.

I do not agree that Lazaris was lying.

Here is a transcript of Lazaris' comments on the Healing Alliances tape:

Lazaris: "Peny did not die of a disease or of an illness. Peny did not die of coronary, cardiac, or respiratory complications or disorder. The medical examiner, with autopsy, knows that the causes are natural, but has not been able to pinpoint precisely what those causes were. It would be physically and metaphysically correct to say that Peny left her body and decided not to return, and her body stopped breathing in the early morning hours Wed. May 9, 2001…."

Comments are as follows:

Lazaris: "Peny did not die of a disease or of an illness… Peny did not die of coronary, cardiac, or respiratory complications or disorder… It would be physically and metaphysically correct to say that Peny left her body and decided not to return, and her body stopped breathing in the early morning hours Wed. May 9, 2001."

My comment: Death is a choice that each of us makes by either creating or allowing; a choice made in conjunction with conscious mind, higher self, and soul. This is the cause of death, in all cases of death that have ever happened or ever will happen. This is true even of someone who unexpectedly dies an accidental death or death by overdose or by heart attack. In one sense, you could say the cause of death was the accident or the overdose or the heart attack, and indeed that is what the death certificate will say, and that is the rule of the consensus world about us. But metaphysically, no one ever dies an accidental death. It doesn't just happen. There is a deeper meaning, a deeper causation.

Those who choose not to look at life and death in a metaphysical way will naturally disagree with this, and will become angry indignant and sarcastic because the 'facts' point otherwise. I understand that some will hold fast to this world view, but I do not personally agree. If this is your view of life and death, I grant you your beliefs; I do, however, disagree.

If one remains entrenched only in the physical realm of cause and effect, then it would be easy to conclude Lazaris was lying, assuming that Lazaris had full and advance access to all the medical examiner's conclusions even before they were concluded. If you have a metaphysical view of life and death, then Lazaris was telling the truth. I know that you disagree with this view; I grant you your point of view; we will have to agree to disagree.

In order to say that Lazaris is lying, you also would have to make the statement that the Lazaris material relies only upon the consensus reality view of life and death and that Lazaris does not espouse the philosophy of creating your own reality. This, of course, has never been consistent with what Lazaris talks about. I know that you disagree with what I am saying; we will just have to agree that we disagree.

I understand your disagreement with Lazaris' statement as being based upon a non-metaphysical view of death. As a metaphysician, I disagree with this, and we will just have to agree that we disagree.

Lazaris: "The medical examiner, with autopsy, knows that the causes are natural, but has not been able to pinpoint precisely what those causes were."

This statement by Lazaris was made July 27. Is a medical examiner's report available, and what is the date of that report? From information posted, I do not see a medical examiner's report. I see reference to the medical examiner's conclusions on a police report that is signed off on one scanned image with the date 9/5/01. If this is inaccurate, please correct me. If a final medical examiner's conclusion and report was available and released for public perusal prior to July 27, with knowledge of this given to Jach prior to July 27, please cite this documentation and I will stand corrected.

If a medical examiner's report becomes available and is dated after July 27, I do not see how you can say that Lazaris was lying about what his comments about the medical examiner. I know that you disagree, and I grant you your point of view; we will have to agree to disagree.

As a physician (3 years general practice/12 years Board Certified Family Practice/4 years residency and fellowship), I have filled out numerous death certificates. It is not acceptable on a death certificate to put a vague diagnosis such as 'natural causes,' or 'old age,' or even 'cardio-respiratory arrest.' The one who signs the certificate must come up with something more definite that could be defended to a group of consensus-oriented peers. And sometimes you have to scratch your head and really hunt for a diagnosis, asking questions like: was it really heart disease? Was it respiratory failure? Was it a drug overdose that was the final straw? You have to make a decision and come up with something definite.

If the final report had not been released by the medical examiner's office before July 27, it is because they were still working on it, there more details to gather or fill in, or test reports still pending. If the report was not finalized before July 27, it was because the final conclusions, wording, data and content had not yet been determined.

It can take many months before a final medical examiner's report is completed.

Lazaris: "The medical examiner, with autopsy, knows that the causes are natural, but has not been able to pinpoint precisely what those causes were."

How is this a lie by Lazaris if the statement was made on July 27, and the final conclusion of the medical examiner has not yet been released to the general public? (Please correct me with the appropriate documentation if I am wrong.)

Regarding the diagnosis of atherosclerosis, from my point of view, this, really, is not a big deal. It is a common diagnosis on autopsy findings. Chances are that if you and I died today and had an autopsy performed, one of the diagnoses on our death certificate would be atherosclerosis, even though neither of us has overt signs or symptoms of circulatory disease, and both of us are relatively young. I direct you to the following website for information on this: http://www.meddean.luc.edu/lumen/MedEd/MEDICINE/medclerk/cad/lesson.htm The hallmark study that we are taught about in medical school is the Korean War study in which 78% of combat casualties had autopsy diagnoses of atherosclerotic vascular disease. One would not expect this because most soldiers are young men, age in late teens and early 20's. Nevertheless, this is what was found, the trend has been substantiated in several other studies of young trauma victims.

In the absence of an actual autopsy report, I do not believe that one can with fairness and accuracy make the statement that Peny had congestive heart failure and that her death had anything to do with heart disease. Please correct me if there is available factual evidence to the contrary. Bear in mind that studies have shown that upwards of 70% of asymptomatic young people in their 20's have an autopsy diagnosis of atherosclerosis. This does not mean that they had any symptoms of heart disease, or that their death had anything to do with heart problems.

It is not unusual for very obese people to feel short of breath, and to use small amounts of supplemental oxygen just as a function of their obesity.

I do not see anywhere in Lazaris' comments the assertion that Peny was living a peaceful, pain-free, disease-free life prior to her passing. There is an inference in your posts that expects that this would be the case if Peny was truly a spiritual being. I stand corrected after you cite to me the recorded or printed words to the contrary.

You make the statement that Peny was presented by Lazaris as the world's most advanced magician, the most evolved being on the planet. I remember from the tape of Lazaris Explains Lazaris, something about Peny having figured out how to love herself, and the special energy that Peny holds about her. Out of 24+ years of attending Lazaris seminars and talks, I remember many times when Lazaris talked of Peny and her process with respect, but I don't recall him specifically labeling her in terms as you describe. I will stand corrected if you can direct me to the printed or recorded quote from Lazaris on this. I have heard of others building her up in that way, but have not heard Lazaris claim this.

I ask that if anyone responds to this post that you please withhold a tone of sarcasm or hostility.

A final note: I did not communicate with anyone at Concept Synergy before writing this. What I have written represents my own opinion, with input from no one but myself.

Thank you.

Welcome! And thanks for writing. I can't guarantee that no one will respond with sarcasm, there are a lot of intense emotions here amongst the group of us who have been pondering the claims and functions of the Lazaris materials. Many of us have a lot more reasons to suspect the truth of the existance of Lazaris as claimed than these recent reports. For me particularly, this is all anti-climactic, and only one more piece to fit into an already very clearly evolved puzzle.

You may encounter sarcasm, I don't know, there is anger here, and IMO rightfully so. As to hostility, we have found most often that disagreement and hostility become interchangeable in the minds of many FOL's and cult apologists. If you take that route, should just let you know in advance that I don't see a reason that anyone should be responsible for that. Maybe you will surprise us and react differently should your thinking come into dispute. To date, all Lazaris apologists have left here screaming that they've been abused, or just left the conversation dangling.

There is also a powerful resistance to the kind of thinking that allows for people like Jach to enrich themselves to the detriment of others. A lot of people have been hurt by Jach and Peny personally, and by the Lazaris materials specifically, as has been recently noted in a stellar example by our friend Lynn who now recognizes that her faithful investment in the L materials might very well have put her son's life at risk. Clearly Peny's life was put at risk, there seems to be no avoidance of that. She's dead, and by even your evaluation of her condition, she didn't have to die. She was neglected to death IMO, by "metaphysicians" who believe themselves to operate outside the laws of common sense and responsibility.

You say that all death is a choice, and I don't think anyone here will deny that. For a 55 year old woman who many times stated her intention to live far and beyond the normal life expectancy, you might say that it was a tragic choice, a choice born out of pain and frustration. As Lazaris says, everything is a choice, but not all choices are growth choices, and in some instances we can create such a horrendous reality that our choices are incredibly narrow or non-existant. I suggest that the details of Peny's illnesses and death indicate just that.

So, yes, I agree with you that Peny's death was a choice. I do not in anyway agree that it was her first or best choice. Someone in that much pain and degradation would have little to live for. The Peny who Lazaris and Jach describe would have everything to live for. Peny herself proclaimed her desire to continue her joyful existance for many years to come.

Ultimately, I see in your perspective the ability to justify and rationalize anything.
All choices are metaphysical, that doesn't make them all good.

quote:

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In one sense, you could say the cause of death was the accident or the overdose or the heart attack, and indeed that is what the death certificate will say, and that is the rule of the consensus world about us. But metaphysically, no one ever dies an accidental death. It doesn't just happen. There is a deeper meaning, a deeper causation.

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Yes, and what deeper meaning and causation is indicated in such a tremendously inelegant death? Would anything that Lazaris teaches indicate that it is a sign of powerful magic for someone to suffer for endless months and evidently spend their last days living in a wheelchair in their bathroom, swilling vodka and self-medicating out of a fear of doctors?

quote:

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Those who choose not to look at life and death in a metaphysical way will naturally disagree with this, and will become angry indignant and sarcastic because the 'facts' point otherwise. I understand that some will hold fast to this world view, but I do not personally agree. If this is your view of life and death, I grant you your beliefs; I do, however, disagree.

---

I think you make a huge mistake in assuming the lack of a metaphysical viewpoint amongst our posters here, Theo. I don't believe there to be one of us who is not a spiritual seeker, and a believer in more than just the physical. Most of us here are far more versed in the Lazaris material than our average critics are. A lot of sincere, deep, and heartfelt thinking and observing has gone into the process and discussion here. We are not the embittered, angry, jealous group that Con:Sin claims we are, and in fact, that assertion, completely uncontested by "Lazaris" is a big indication to most of us that either there is no "Lazaris" or that "he" is not who he is claimed to be. None of us abandoned "Lazaris", "he" abandoned us, or failed to respond when our issues arose. It seems that "Lazaris" is only available to those who are deemed "appropriate" by Jach. When Jach's approval is removed, so is "Lazaris". I wonder how you explain that?

quote:

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If one remains entrenched only in the physical realm of cause and effect, then it would be easy to conclude Lazaris was lying, assuming that Lazaris had full and advance access to all the medical examiner's conclusions even before they were concluded.
If you have a metaphysical view of life and death, then Lazaris was telling the truth. I know that you disagree with this view; I grant you your point of view; we will have to agree to disagree.

---

What I am reading here is a statement that everything is true, and that we should not look to the "material" world for evidence of truth, or invest in the realities that are created, we should look beyond all that and see the "truth" in everything. I do disagree, and in all honesty, find the thinking to be irresponsible and ultimately shaming. It does not allow for us to respond to our physicality. It isn't hard to see how this thinking taken to it's ultimate conclusion would result in the kind of suffering and tragic death that Peny suffered. We can feel pretty sure that she too was looking beyond the physical for the solutions to her problems.

quote:

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In order to say that Lazaris is lying, you also would have to make the statement that the Lazaris material relies only upon the consensus reality view of life and death and that Lazaris does not espouse the philosophy of creating your own reality. This, of course, has never been consistent with what Lazaris talks about. I know that you disagree with what I am saying; we will just have to agree that we disagree.

---

I must admit that I'm finding it annoying that you argue our beliefs for us, rather than providing the opportunity to respond. You are assigning beliefs and perspectives that have nothing to do with anything anyone has ever written or said here. It is because most of us do believe in reality creation that we see the dishonesty in Lazaris' portrayal of Peny as a powerful magician. We see the circumstances of her life and death as a complete contradiction to that assertion. Most of us, including most FOL's had come to that conclusion long before we even knew that Peny was ill. She did not in any way exhibit any wisdom, power, or love. On the contrary, we factually know that Peny was a bitter and mean person who feasted on gossip and who took her pleasures in the humiliation and degradation of others.

quote:

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I understand your disagreement with Lazaris' statement as being based upon a non-metaphysical view of death. As a metaphysician, I disagree with this, and we will just have to agree that we disagree.

---

Again, you provide yourself with a pat explanation of how most of us posters have reached the conclusions we have, but I state again, that your theory is incorrect. You ask for no hostility, but might we find some covert hostility in your assertion that you are the metaphysician here, and no one else?

The Medical Examiner's report is completed but not yet filed and available for distribution. Several of us have spoken to the personnel there, and the police have noted the coroners findings in their report.
We have also posted the contact information for anyone else who is interested in discussing this matter, or receiving a copy of the report for themselves. As we've been told, prior to July 27 the coroner was having a hard time pinpointing ONE specific cause of death, because Peny had so many physical issues. It was widely assumed that the cause of death would be deemed "congestive heart failure" until evidently the toxicology reports came back that indicated toxic levels of the substances now listed in the cause of death.

The diagnosis of "congestive heart failure" was made assumptively from the moment Peny's body was brought to the coroner, and it was only because of the insistance of the investigative detectives that any extensive autopsy procedure was initiated.

So, you're saying that the wisdom of Lazaris exists within the constraints of time? I never heard that. I thought Lazaris exists outside space and time. Beyond that, are you saying that when Lazaris says that Peny just made an impulsive decision to leave one night, that she did not die of any disease or illness, that he was providing a factual or honest depiction of what happened? Everyone's heart stops when they die, and a debilitating, painful, and degrading process of illness does not make for any frivolous or impetuous decision to just leave. Neither does an accidental drug overdose.

You are free to ignore the surrounding facts, and confine your focus on the specific second of death, but those of us who are sincerely interested in understanding will by right of the use of our god given brains and self respect look a bit beyond.

Above and beyond the metaphysical belief that the person chose to die, there is interest and value in knowing how the body manifested that choice. It would be incredibly significant, for example, if we were to find that Peny had been happy, healthy, productive, smiling and laughing right up until her death. It would have been enormously telling if the facts were shown that Peny just gave a big huge smile and stopped breathing. That is the picture that is painted by the Jach/Lazaris spin, but it is not factual. The events leading up to the death provide quite an insight into the state of consciousness our "powerful magician" friend was in at the time of her passing. What "conscious, magical, powerful, joyful" choice is indicated in such a horrific death as hers?

quote:

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Regarding the diagnosis of atherosclerosis, from my point of view, this, really, is not a big deal. It is a common diagnosis on autopsy findings.

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But, you seem to be missing the surrounding facts. Peny was ill, in pain, drinking and popping pills to alleviate it. She refused
medical assistance, and was not provided any.

Her "common" condition had escalated into a painful, debilitating, and dangerous enough situation that she died as a result of trying to alleviate the pain. It appears evident that she would have died soon anyway, given the extent to which she had deteriorated. Are you trying to say that she wasn't any sicker than anyone else?

As you state, her condition was not necessarily serious, neither is an infection, but people die from things that remain untreated appropriately. Peny's fear of doctors, and complete disbelief in her own power to choose something better than being left a vegetable under medical care does not reflect the thinking or behavior of a powerful magician.

quote:

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In the absence of an actual autopsy report, I do not believe that one can with fairness and accuracy make the statement that Peny had congestive heart failure and that her death had anything to do with heart disease.

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There is a report, and it does make that statement. As a physician, you also know that the source of Peny's leg pain was a condition which is caused by poor circulation often caused by congestive heart failure. I have to note Theo, that your incredible process of denial and rationalization is classic cult behavior.

quote:

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I do not see anywhere in Lazaris' comments the assertion that Peny was living a peaceful, pain-free, disease-free life prior to her passing. There is an inference in your posts that expects that this would be the case if Peny was truly a spiritual being. I stand corrected after you cite to me the recorded or printed words to the contrary.

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I think you just need to stand corrected Theo. In countless comments and writings Lazaris discusses the blissful life that Peny was living. Maybe where you should concentrate your energy more appropriately would be in convincing us that the scene the police found when called in after the death was in someway reflective of a blissful and magical, or powerful life.

quote:

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I ask that if anyone responds to this post that you please withhold a tone of sarcasm or hostility.

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I ask that you look beyond your need to be responded to by a tone of your own perceptions. Tone isn't the issue here, Truth and honesty are. Sometimes, often in fact, we find that the quest for that comes across here as "hostile". I leave you to your own perceptions on that. This is not a social encounter group, we are discussing issues here that are of vital concern to all of us metaphysicians. I ask you to please not attempt to manipulate how anyone can respond here by placing this burden of perception on us. If someone calls you names, or wishes ill on you, I will be the first to stand up.

Anyone who investigated the process of magic, even to the extent of reading a dime store paperback knows that the creation of "magic" requires precision and attention to detail. "Lazaris" has provided the same information.

That is what we are doing here. Paying attention to the details rather than trying to fit our beliefs into some vague and frivolous explanation of facts that don't fit.

quote:

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A final note: I did not communicate with anyone at Concept Synergy before writing this. What I have written represents my own opinion, with input from no one but myself.

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As a former member of the Lazaris cult, I would respectfully suggest that you might want to take a closer look at the input which provides the foundation for your thinking.

Thanks again for writing. It's always interesting to hear what others are thinking.

Katie

Welcome!

Honesty deals with Truth. Spin deals with selected facts put forth in a context which benefits the desired spin. Maybe Lazaris could not be convicted in a court of law for their spin - maybe they technically didn't put forth anything that is not strictly factual. And maybe they did. In any case, FOLs have been encouraged to trust Lazaris' honesty - not their spin - implicitly.

As Bill O'Reilly would say, "this is a no-spin zone". Lazaris said that Peny chose to die, "impetuously". This certainly implies that she had other, positive choices. They said that her death was not a result of disease or complications brought on by disease. Certainly overdosing on pain medication can be considered a complication of whatever disease was the cause of the pain.

You say that Lazaris never said that Peny was the "world's most advanced magician, the most evolved being on the planet." I agree that, to my knowledge, Lazaris never used those exact words. But they did say that she was the reason for them coming. They did say that she chose to come back to physical life, that she was not impelled to do so by her karma. Hinduism refers to these people as "avatars", and they are indeed very rare. The implication was that Peny was/is "special".

BTW, Lazaris elsewhere states that we all choose to come back, that we enforce the laws of karma. In that sense we are all avatars. Why then specifically mention that Peny chose to come back? I don't know if Lazaris' take on karma is accurate or not, but it is clear to me that their description of Peny's relationship to karma is spin, not Truth.

Lazaris also has said that every death is a suicide because we all choose when and how to die. Again, why make the implication that Peny's choice is unique? What kind of choice was it? Was it empowered or default?

You wrote:

quote:

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I do not see anywhere in Lazaris' comments the assertion that Peny was living a peaceful, pain-free, disease-free life prior to her passing

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Lazaris has often said that Peny spent her time creating all sorts of miracles and that she and Jach had no more relationship problems (with others). They also said that they (Lazaris) create their own reality and chose to create a reality where they are not criticized. I guess that means this board is in a different set than Lazaris. (Hey that's a good rationalization - I developed those skills during 12 years with Lazaris )

You say that the medical examiner needs to explain the death within the confines of the Consensus Reality. In 1952, when Paramahansa Yogananda consciously left his body forever, the mortualry director of Forest Lawn Memorial Park in Glendale, Ca. didn't attempt to force an unusual phenomenom into Consensus Reality constraints. He testified that Yogananda's body, "manifested a phenomenal state of immutability... No odor of decay emanated from his body at any time". Yogananda was in good health and very active up to his death. He entered meditation after concluding a welcome speech to the Ambassador of India in Los Angeles, and left his body then. Lazaris' spin would have us believe that Peny made a similar elegant exit.

I think there is a danger in looking too closely at the precise form of words people use. It's like Clinton's odd definition of the word "sex"... In a very pedantic sense he was probably right, but he was still deceiving people. He knew that people would lock onto the obvious meaning of what he was saying and ignore the pedantic one.

I was never a Friend of Lazaris; my group was quite different, but your post nevertheless struck a chord with me. We used to argue about the meaning of single words in the Bible. You could read something and it would have a certain everyday meaning. Then someone would say, "but it says `and' here." Soon you would be totally confused.

If you want to know whether Lazaris lied, I believe you should ask yourself what a reasonable person would think on reading his words.

Welcome to the site.

An overall impression I come up with is that using your logic one could state that the ultimate truth is that everything is true. For example, if I was seen at the local convenience store today at 12:00PM, I could rely on metaphysics to claim that I was not at the convenience store today at 12:00PM. On top of time and space being an illusion, there most certainly was a part of me, perhaps a parallel life or just some aspect of me, that wasn't there. Thus, I did not lie.

While we are playing this game called physicality, I think it behoves us to show good sportsmanship and play by the rules when trying to communicate with others. I think "Lazaris" should be aware of those rules also.

However, you seem willing to break from metaphysics when it is convenient to your argument. For example, you say that Lazaris may be accurate in what he states about the coroner's report since it had not been filed yet. The Lazaris that I thought I knew would certainly be able to peek a little into the future. He would also know about the real physical cause of her death the moment it happened, if not before.

Are you aware that some of us have communicated directly with the detective in charge of this investigation? As Katie points out, everyone assumed that she had congestive heart failure. There was never a time where they were scratching their heads wondering how this poor woman could possibly have died.

Finally, I would like your opinion about what Lazaris said about Michaell. To paraphrase, he said that Michaell had an unprecedented and impeccable level of comittment and integrity. I would think that a person of such comittment would not have cut off all contact with all of his immediate family from three generations (his daughter, his brother, and his parents). Just so you don't start to think that all of his family was all evil and therefore his actions were justified, please know that we have heard that Jach also cut off contact from his family. And as to integrity, I think if you take a closer look at Tradevest and other MLM scams he was involved with, you would question that claim also.

Craig

My respectful questions to you would be...

If you had heard this information about a person that you did not know or have some connection to, would you be sing the same tune? Or would you say, "There is a very good chance that this person died because of poor lifestyle choices and the lack of dealing with some very real problems."?

If you had a very close friend or family member that was drinking heavily or taking large quantities of painkillers, would you attempt to do something about it? Would you call a crisis line or try to connect to a counselor or doctor just so you could receive some personal support (even if they do not want any) while trying to deal with this crisis situation?

Lets take Lazaris out the picture for a minute and look at the police report. Look at what Michael said. He was feeding her painkillers. How long would it take for someone to die when they are eating such large qualities? Did Peny really make a conscious, spiritually mature choice at the time of her death? Or was it a drugged up, in pain, unconscious choice to leave? If Lazaris were not endorsing the idea that she simply left her body would you believe it?

I have a feeling that if anyone else died like Peny did that both Lazaris and Peny would be the first ones to say that that person was a martyr and very much in negative ego.

quote:

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Chances are that if you and I died today and had an autopsy performed, one of the diagnoses on our death certificate would be
atherosclerosis, even though neither of us has overt signs or symptoms of circulatory disease, and both of us are relatively young.

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Atherosclerosis as a common condition okay, but atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease is not just diseased arteries but heart disease. And stasis dermatitis so painful that she overdosed to death on painkillers -- imagine the severe edema and the ulcerated flesh. Then even having this information, you suggest that the oxygen tanks were likely present because of the obesity, though heart disease indicates a poorly functioning heart, and fluid in the lungs is a likely factor in this scenario.

And sleeping in a wheelchair in the bathroom!! No none of the above fits with "no big deal." Who are you helping by minimizing the reality of Peny's condition?

"Lazaris" on Peny. At seminars I have heard him say, more than once, essentially the following,

"Peny's light was so bright that she (out of billions of spirits) attracted 'them' to her presence."

"Peny didn't have to come back to physical reality, but chose to because she knew we would need her help during this critical time on the planet."

Of course the implication is that the rest of us had "to come back," are not as evolved, and needed her help. Maybe a little "less than."

Makes you wonder why she "impetuously" exited before things became truly critical as they are now.

This glorification came out of the mouth of the woman's ex-husband, who refers to her as "the most wonderful woman in the world."

"Lazaris" set her up to be revered. This woman who did not behave as decently as the average human being, was able to wreak havoc because of the J/L adulation.

Peny was a very egocentric, mean-spirited woman. Because of the lavish praise she received from "Lazaris," she was in a position to clobber people to their core. Yes, we are all responsible for our own reality, but she and "Lazaris" are responsible and accountable for their behavior as well. I consider both of them to be profiteering spiritual predators.

"Lazaris" refers to "whispers" that get increasingly louder in our reality when we ignore them. Peny's nasty, unspiritual behavior was loud. Her death louder. The information in these reports is booming.

Jade

You wrote:

"Lazaris: "Peny did not die of a disease or of an illness."

Artful lie: she died from overdosing on meds being taken to alleviate the pain of the *underlying* disease and illness.

You wrote:

L: "Peny did not die of coronary, cardiac, or respiratory complications or disorder."

Correct: Cause of death was a drug overdose.
Lazaris' Lie of Omission: Not mentioning that fact.

You wrote:

L: "The medical examiner, with autopsy, knows that the causes are natural,"

1) Pure spin: All the medical examiner had ruled out at that point was foul play--but the implication of "natural" is that there was nothing untoward about Peny's death.

2) Outright lie: An accidental overdose is not a "natural" cause of death.

You wrote:

L: "....but has not been able to pinpoint precisely what those causes were."

Pure spin: the implication of the above comment is that the autopsy had left the medical examiner permanently puzzled, when in fact the investigation was not closed, with the medical examiner unable to "pinpoint precisely" what the cause of death was, but still ongoing.

Ask yourself this; do you think most people heard Lazaris' words and thought, "Oh, I see, Peny's death is still being investigated because the medical examiner just isn't done yet" or "The medical examiner couldn't figure out why Peny died".

Which thought did *you* think?

You wrote:

L: "It would be physically and metaphysically correct to say that Peny left her body and decided not to return, and her body stopped breathing in the early morning hours Wed. May 9, 2001…."

Misdirection: ultimately, we all leave our bodies and choose not to return, so how is an explanation of the death process itself an explanation for Peny's death in particular?

You wrote:

" If one remains entrenched only in the physical realm of cause and effect, then it would be easy to conclude Lazaris was lying,"

As Lazaris himself chose to address Peny's death in terms of "cause and effect" (mentioning "physical realm" issues such as disease, autopsies, etc) your point regarding the metaphysical validity of such explanations might be better served being addressed to him.

And if Lazaris wanted to avoid being misunderstood by those "entrenched only in the physical realm of cause and effect" why present her death in those terms? Where is the esoteric vision you have decided *we* lack in *his* detailed, earth-bound explanation?

You wrote:

.."assuming that Lazaris had full and advance access to all the medical examiner's conclusions even before they were concluded."

If a valid answer from Lazaris as to how and why his dearest friend died is based only on having access to the final medical examiner's report, that gives lie to everything he's taught and said for over twenty-five years concerning time, space and reality creation.

There are two choices here: If Lazaris is who he says he is then he should have known why Peny died, regardless of whether or not those in the "consensus reality" had finished their investigation yet; if we assume he is genuine, his explanation is not--it is a combination of lies, spin and misdirection.

If he is not who he says he is, then he relied not on any brilliant metaphysical skills (skills he's been claiming to teach for almost thirty years) but instead on the initial comments from the medical examiner, and has now been caught with his metaphorical pants round his ankles, since the investigation uncovered a drug overdose.

The bottom line is, either he is not what he has presented himself to be and had no idea that Peny really died of a drug overdose, or he *did* know, and lied--neither option speaks to his credibility or integrity.

You wrote:

"In order to say that Lazaris is lying, you also would have to make the statement that the Lazaris material relies only upon the consensus reality view of life and death "

Apparently, Lazaris himself relies very heavily on the consensus reality--and one based on unfinished medical investigations, at that.

flo

Thank you for your responses to my posts.

As you can tell, I remain endeared to Lazaris. I do not think it likely that my views are going to change and vice versa.

I still do not see a lie in the transcript of Lazaris' comments. To prove a lie, it is my opinion that one would need to prove that Lazaris and Jach were aware of a published medical examiner's conclusion prior to July 27, and one would also need to prove that Lazaris did not intend to speak about metaphysics when talking about how Peny died.

I don't think this would happen, but if it ever came up in a libel/defamation setting, I think it would be important to have an airtight factual case on these points, regardless of one's opinion on whether Lazaris would have or should have known this or that.

Regarding Michaell's character, I did not know him, and do not feel qualified to comment on this. I am not personally involved with MLM, and would not be comfortable rendering derogatory judgment on anyone else who engages in this without knowing more details; I don't know enough information. I would not want to render derogatory judgment on someone who has chosen not to have contact with their family without knowing precise details. What was the nature of the relationship and of the estrangement? Was there a legal settlement? Was money involved? Are the other family members, for example, fundamentalist Christians who refused further contact because of divergent beliefs? (I just made that up as an example of how knowing more information could be relevant to me before forming my opinion).

Thank you for 'listening' to me. (Reading my post). Perhaps you can understand and perhaps not, that I am choosing to not participate further on this web site at this time. One of the bottom lines, I think, is that regardless of what I say, or what you say, and how we phrase this point or that point, our views are not going to change. All of us are on a spiritual path. I wish you well.

Respectfully,
Best wishes,

I don't know if you're still reading; I hope so. It's good to hear other points of view—it's good for me to hear yours, and you to hear mine.

My dictionary defines a lie like this:

quote:

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... an untrue or deceptive statement deliberately used to mislead.

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The second part catches Clinton. He was being deceptive even if his statement wasn't, strictly speaking, untrue.

Jach/Lazaris said that Peny had made an impulsive decision not to return. Let's take the dictionary definition in two parts. First, is it deceptive? Does it convey the idea of someone dying of a chronic disease over a period of months? No, it does not. It suggests that death only became an issue at the moment when Peny did her impulsive act. In fact, it had been an issue for the whole time that her disease and overdosing had been life-threatening.

I appreciated your point of view. It was hard to imagine anyone stepping up to the plate and actually offering a defense based on the words but you managed to do that.

However I think you miss the point. It is not to put Lazaris through the legal ringer and see if he comes out clean. The mere fact that he needs a legal defense is enough to destroy his credibility. Lazaris does not get the benefit of the doubt here. If his explanations are not transparently honest in something as basic as how a person died, there is no use splitting hairs in his defense. Better to ask why his explanation needs such laundering to get by rather than resort to metaphysical explanations to make it all come clean in the wash. If Lazaris cannot be taken at face value, there is no need to hunt for the “real” explanation. The real explanation is the obvious one, L is not who he says he is. At least in this instance. Whether this instance discredits all his words is another matter and certainly worth another discussion.

Excellent points by all here by the way, very good stuff.

"To prove a lie, it is my opinion that one would need to prove that Lazaris and Jach were aware of a published medical examiner's conclusion prior to July 27,"

No, that is what would be needed if both Jach and Lazaris were merely human.

Given the extraordinary claims Lazaris has made about his consciousness, the standard used to determine a lie should be the standard Lazaris has publicly set for himself--it's that straightforward.

Previously, this entity has said it never needed to rely on the time/space continuum, the consensus reality or human paperwork to inform people of future energies, past lives or eternal truths;

"....seeing the future, the past and the present simultaneously, we began to have impact.."
-Lazaris Interivews, Book 1/pg 44

Suddenly deciding that these standards no longer apply is, ironically, a degradation of Lazaris's past and present claims of rarefied abilities--you "reduce" him to only possessing the ways of knowing the rest of us have; waiting on official reports and mundane fact checking.

He is no longer capable of seeing both the unfinished medical examiner's report while simultaneously knowing what the future report will ultimately reveal--he is, in short, not capable of doing what he has said is the very essence of what makes him different from humankind.

And that, Theo, is why it is a lie, however much you want to avoid applying Lazaris' own standards to himself.

If he is beyond time and space, then he knew what the future would bring and, as he has done in other matters, would have mentioned potential realities that might be created,
i.e., : "The medical examiner is currently puzzled, but will eventually find that Peny died of an overdose, and will further note underlying health issues involving obesity and heart disease--certainly so, this will be the consensus reality definition, but it is not the reality of her death as actually occured..." *That* would have been the truth, and left room for Lazaris to explain why the "consensus reality" would differ so radically from whatever explanation *he* had to offer for Peny's death.

Instead, Lazaris offered information about the medical report that has since proved to be completely wrong on the facts (which is what Lazaris chose to present--the medical "facts" of Peny's death) and we are left with, as I said, two choices; he is what he claims to be and therefore lied, or he is not, and without credibility.

You wrote:

"and one would also need to prove that Lazaris did not intend to speak about metaphysics when talking about how Peny died."

No, one has only to prove that words such as "autopsy", "medical examiner", "disease", "illness", "natural causes" etc were offered as an explanation within a *physical context* for Peny's death.

And unlike you, Lazaris clearly separated the physical from the metaphysical; medical "facts" first, then a spiritual explanation involving choices, decisions, and mandatory life focuses--why are you conflating the two, when Lazaris did not?

You wrote:

"regardless of one's opinion on whether Lazaris would have or should have known this or that."

It is not an "opinion", Theo; those of us extremely familiar with the material understand that Lazaris's claim that he perceives all reality simultaneously is one of the cornerstones of his credibility--he has used that point repeatedly to express his superior, "objective" understanding of our physical reality and therefore, his ability to help people evolve more elegantly and powerfully.

That claim becomes null and void if, as you say, Lazaris isn't expected to know the truth or be accused of lying unless there's a finished medical report on hand--he becomes less capable of knowing the "energies" of the future than any of us here who wondered, from the beginning, if there was more to Peny's death than met the eye.

We are taking Lazaris at his own words, applying the standard of consciousness he has led us to believe he possesses and then assessing the gap between the two--"would have or should have known this or that" becomes "If Lazaris is who he said he is, why *didn't* he know this or that?"

You wrote:

"One of the bottom lines, I think, is that regardless of what I say, or what you say, and how we phrase this point or that point, our views are not going to change."

The difference between our bottom lines, Theo, is that while you have not been where we currently are, most of us have been where you now stand; incapable of applying the Lazaris material to Lazaris himself, ignoring and avoiding the truths that become evident when those standards are used.

Good luck.

flo

You said: I am not personally involved with MLM, and would not be comfortable rendering derogatory judgment on anyone else who engages in this without knowing more details; I don't know enough information. I would not want to render derogatory judgment on someone who has chosen not to have contact with their family without knowing precise details. What was the nature of the relationship and of the estrangement? Was there a legal settlement? Was money involved? Are the other family members, for example, fundamentalist Christians who refused further contact because of divergent beliefs? (I just made that up as an example of how knowing more information could be relevant to me before forming my opinion).

Perhaps you can ask Jach to tell you the details. I'm sure he knows. Good luck on getting a response, though.

As far as Tradevest and MLM schemes, there is information about these in this website.

As far as abandoning his family, let's assume for a second that his family were Christian fundamentalists. This would explain perhaps his parents and brother. What about his daughter who was quite young when she was cut off? I sincerely doubt his ex-wife would also be a Christian fundamentalist.

Let's talk a little more about his daughter. Let's assume his ex-wife was an ex-wife from hell and that Michaell was forced for some valid reason to abandon his daughter. No matter what caused the break-up, anyone with any level of decency and integrity would include his daughter in his will (especially when there is so much money to go around that giving her some money won't be harming others). I don't care what the circumstances of the abandonment were. She is and always will be his daughter. No one here knows the content of his will yet (though we will on Thursday or Friday). However, I would be willing to bet a large amount of money that his daughter will not be mentioned in the will. I hope to God I am wrong.

Finally, let's look at one of the last sentence's Michaell wrote. He said in his suicide note that no one else knew of his intentions. However, the police report says that at least Jach and Page knew. Again, a question of integrity.

Theo, I admire your loyalty. Sorry you won't stay around to debate.

Cheers, Craig

You said: No matter how sick Peny was in body, her metaphysical passing could have been quite different, a definitely blissful, one might guess, if she were escaping physical suffering.

I am currently working on a Q&A posting surrounding some of the issues on this site. I haven't had much time of late to work on it, but here is my opening Q&A (in its draft form):
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Q: How exactly did Lazaris lie?

A: We can see an example of Lazaris lying to us if we compare his statements about Peny and Michaell's death in the "Healing the Broken Alliance" tape to the facts that are presented in the publicly available police investigation report surrounding their deaths. Further, information in Peny's and Michaell's will adds important background information supporting the claim that Lazaris lied both in this instance and others.

For those who have access to the tape, I strongly recommend you closely listen to the first 5 or 10 minutes of the tape. For those who don't have access, I will summarize the most important points made by Lazaris.

1) Peny did not die of a disease or illness. She did not die of coronary, cardiac, or respiratory disorders or complications.

2) The medical examiner with autopsy knows the causes were natural but hasn't been able to pinpoint precisely what the causes were.

3) Peny left her body and decided not to return, and thus her body stopped breathing.

4) Peny did not tarry with her choices and decisions. Her actions were swift and decisive. As she had these qualities in living, so she had them in dying.

5) Michaell had a level of commitment and integrity that was both impeccable and unparalleled.

All of these statements sound fine and dandy until we examine them with the facts as made evidence by reports available. Scanned images of the report, along with a summary, are available at http://www.cosmicfool.com/discussion/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000336.html

There are many disturbing details in the report. I will very briefly summarize only those parts that contradict Lazaris.

The detective summarizes the medical examiner's findings:

[[[
Dr. Sara Irrgang concluded her studies in this case and found the causes of death to be; "Respiratory depression", "Multiple drug overdose" and "Toxic levels of codeine and salicylates." She also found the victim to be suffering from organic diseases such as; "Infected stasis dermatitis," "Morbid obesity" and "Arteriosclerotic cardiovascular disease." Dr. Irrgang ruled the manner of death as an "Accident".
[[[

We also are given an image of the death scene. Peny died in the bathroom on a reclining wheel chair. Michaell was by her side in an inflatable bed. The scene was cluttered with "numerous medical devices and equipment including a Cardiassist machine, boxes of 13 boxes of Medifil II, a tank of Carbon dioxide, and several Oxygen tanks."

Michaell was giving her the aspirin and codeine every 1.5 hours for the past 5 or so days. The medicine was obtained from Canada. The medical examiner explains that such a dosage is high for a healthy person and potentially lethal for someone in Peny's condition because of her compromised ability to metabolize the meds. According to Michaell, before that she was drinking Blue Sky vodka to relieve the pain.

According to verbal reports from the detective, everyone assumed that she died from congestive heart failure. There was never a time when the coroner or anyone else was at a loss for any explanation as to why this women might have died.

The report also indicates that according to Michaell, Peny was ill for "several months". We can safely speculate from information such as the October 14, 2001 date on her will and the fact that she stopped posting on the forum that things were pretty serious from at least that point on. Eyewitness reports from the millennium event indicate that she had problems even then.

The detective report alone directly and conclusively disputes the above 4 claims made by Lazaris:

1) She had a multitude of diseases that contributed to her death.

2) The medical examiner found many problems.

3 & 4) Lazaris paints a picture of her going on a flight of fancy from which she impetuously decided not to return. The reality is that Peny was clearly in severe pain for a long time and died of a drug overdose attempting to ease the pain, complicated by her severe health problems.

As far as Michaell is concerned, we also have contradictory evidence in public records that dispute Lazaris' claim of Michaell's unparalleled and impeccable sense of commitment and integrity.

The police report quotes Michaell's suicide note:

...No one knows of my plans, so no one can be prosecuted for helping me (Hey it's my life I'll do with it what I choose)...

This fact is directly contradicted in the police report where we know that Jach and others knew of his general plan. Jach hid this from the police. When the police questioned him about why he hid this, he responded that he said it was a long time ago and he didn't believe him. From Jach's email to select Lazarians right after Michaell's suicide, it is clear that the three had discussed very seriously what would happen in the event of Peny and Michaell's death.

Besides this issue of integrity brought out by the police report, there are others such as his involvement in Tradevest (as documented elsewhere in this site) and other multi level marketing (MLM) schemes.

As far as Lazaris claims about Michaell's commitment, we have the fact Michaell cut off communications with all of his family. Further, we know that Michaell gave his young daughter up for adoption to his ex-wife, allegedly at the insistence of Peny. His will (see...) makes it clear that his daughter should not receive anything in his will. Instead, all money goes to Jach and then to the Republican National Committee if Jach is not around.

Through false claims, Lazaris has forced Michaell's integrity and commitment into the public spotlight.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You said: Why isw Jach responsible for answering his customers' questions about a family tragedy?

He is responsible since Lazaris talked about the deaths for 5-10 minutes on a public tape, Jach sent email and flyers about the deaths, and the death is obviously of great concern as Lazaris presents much health advice (not so much on individual tapes, but certainly during intensives, personal consultations, and occasional weekend seminars dedicated to health topics). The fact that someone who is touted as having unlimited and daily access to Lazaris would have such miserable health problems is a valid topic for discussion IMO.

You said: As to throwing people out of the forum, it might seem heavy-handed. But I can tell you that in my CompuServe days I locked out innumerable people and deleted countless messages. In *every* instance the afflicted person thought I was a bastard, and I *always* thought I had good reason. So I hesitate to judge how C:S enforces topicality or implements their TOS policy.

I find it hard to find anything so offensive in the deleted post that was quoted earlier that would warrant expulsion from the forum:

[[[
Date: October 25, 2001
Message: 88394
Dear Jach,
You said you didn't want to discuss the spam e-mail in the Forum. I can understand that.
Would you be willing to have an on-line conference for those of us that received the spam e-mail?
Obviously there are questions that I and others have regarding some trust issues that I feel have been broken.
I am looking forward to your response.

Sincerely,
]]]

quote:

---

It seems to me that Lazaris offered an explanation of Peny's metaphysical passing, and there is too much tangling going on here between that explanation and Peny's physical condition.

---

The Lazaris material makes it very clear that physical reality, though an illusion, is a reflection of a more significant spiritual/metaphysical reality.

Important and significant because of what it metaphorically expresses of the "more real" parts of ourselves and experience of the "allness".

I agree with this perspective.

In short, you seem to be suggesting that Lazaris is describing Peny's death from a metaphysical spiritual perspective and the discussion in this forum is [perhaps misguidedly] focused on the facts concerning the death of her physical body.

Your post seems to suggest there is a split or a disconnect between those physical facts and the metaphysical perspective you say Lazaris is addressing.

One of the cornerstones of the Lazaris material is that physical reality is a reflection of your beliefs attitudes, thoughts and feelings imagination, desire and expectancy.

Physical reality reflects what you believe, feel desire etc., but does not cause it.

In short, Lazaris would say that the facts of Peny's death have metaphysical significance even though they are illusions.

From the Lazarian perspective, Peny's diseases, the fact that she was in so much pain and had so many health complications is communicating something of the "more real".

I digress a moment, using Lazarian vocabulary to make the point.

Lazaris talked about how the physical illusion is always communicating to us with symbols, metaphors and messages.

Ranging from what he termed "whispers" to "shouts"

A whisper might be banging your elbow, a shout might be having the doctor tell you your elbow has to come off.

Lazaris conceptualizes these messages on a scale of intensity that increases or decreases based on the willingess of the person to hear and respond to those whispers or shouts

To return to the example: Say you banged your elbow and interpreted that as a message from other parts of yourself, via the illusion, that you are trying to "elbow your way through life" and that you are "banging up against those beliefs"

Say you saw that and changed the beliefs, thus changing the experience and having heard and responded to the communication, eliminate any need for escalating the whisper to a shout.

If say, you chose to interpret banging your elbow as:

"somebody's negative ego put that wall there to make my life miserable because I am the greatest person on the planet, the most special, the most evolved and they are jealous of me and all my crystals and my big house."

Then, as Lazaris conceptualizes it, your reality would escalate the message progressively to a shout until you heard it.

I don't think anyone would deny that Peny's reality was "shouting" at her at the time of her death.

I say this without judgement. There is certainly nothing "wrong" with being sick or being in pain and it doesn't, in my opinion, imply anything about the state of her spiritual evolution.

What is also significant, and in my opinion, cannot be parsed is that a very definite attempt by CS and Lazaris [if in fact, Lazaris is still present] was made to edit out the truth to present a palatable myth supporting documented falsehoods.

These documents do not just exist in my reality or yours but also in Jach's.

Saying that Peny impulsively decided to leave her body may be true, but the likely reasons for that, the pain and the illness and perhaps unhappy life circumstances that informed that decision were not admitted to.

Not that we have to know every detail of her suffering but the fact that she was suffering at all was lied about.

Perhaps because they think it is shameful to suffer, to die, to have illness.

What could be motivating this coverup but shame and perhaps greed or self preservation?

quote:

---

It is Lazaris's job to provide metaphysical perspectives that, if I'm not mistaken, often recast our physical perceptions.

---

Yes true, but within the context of what Lazaris teaches your point [as I understand it] doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Lazaris often said in effect " if you create something painful, don't throw the experience away and pretend it wasn't, understand the reasons, and learn from it.

quote:

---

I recognize that if you've already decided Lazaris doesn't exist, this apparent discrepancy is just another nail in Jach's coffin.

---

Personally, and I know your post wasn't addresed to me, I have come to no conclusions yet as to who or what Lazaris is.

My only conclusion is that that Concept Synergy is a highly questionable business operation and that the Lazaris material after the mid 80's changed from an open and interesting philosophy/discussion to a [for the most part] self serving fear driven enterprise.

Who or what Lazaris is, well that is still an open question.

Open, but for me, not the most pertinent question.

quote:

---

But to someone without hostility, there is nothing at all unusual about a channeled entity furnishing a startlingly peaceful metaphysical explanation of a painful death. Nor does it seem at all implausible that Peny, lifted out of her physical condition, might make a conscious, decisive passing much as Lazaris described.

---

Lazaris often said that death is the ultimate healing.

Lazaris description of Peny's death could be applied to anyone. She chose to die.. so does everyone.

Again, what is significant, and what cannot be parsed, is the attempt to cover up the less that flattering details.

Again, it is Concept Synergy and Jach Pursel who clearly have determined these details to be shameful and unflattering

So perhaps the question of confusing the physical and metaphysical perspective on Peny's death is best put to them.

Peace,

Jeremiah

quote:

---

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then he tells us that Peny did not tarry with her choices and decisions. Her actions were swift and decisive.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps they were. If I were escaping the kind of suffering she was in, the point would probably come when I'd make a swift and decisive exit, too.
.

---

You're missing the point. Lazaris said on the "Healing the Broken Alliance" tape (which has been said in several posts) that Peny did not die of a disease or illness. She did not die of coronary, cardiac or respiratory disorders or complications.
He had us believe that there wasn't any illness or suffering, that she just decided while sleeping (and healthy)to leave and never return. This is the lie.

In the above quote you said if you were suffering the way Peny was you'd probably make a swift and decisive exit, too.
You made it clear in this statement that Peny was obviously in a lot of pain and suffering - enough to want to die.
Lazaris (by saying she didn't die of an illness) and Jach made it clear that Peny was fine. THIS IS THE LIE. Since I cannot truly know what Peny's choice was at that final moment of her death I am not disagreeing over what the metaphyical reasons are for her leaving. (The physical reasons are quite apparent if you read the sheriff's report.)
It could be argued metaphysically forever that Peny decided to leave and never return.
The lie is that Lazaris and Concept:Synergy led us to believe she was healthy and she left.

quote:

---

No, it's your conclusion, not shared by me, nor by either of the two smart, experienced, and utterly uninvolved friends to whom I've described this whole mess

---

While it may be true that you and your friends are smarter than me in some areas I know the Lazaris material. I've lived it for almost 14 years and all my friends and family have had to listen to me quoting lazaris. Telling them we don't have to grow through pain and suffering, that we can grow more elegantly through the joy and happiness.
That's what Lazaris came to teach us - the way out of all this pain. So the big question is why did Peny have to die a horrible and painful death?

I really resent your remark about your two smart, experienced (in what?)and utterly uninvolved (why are they a part of this if they are utterly uninvolved?) friends to whom you've described this whole mess. It would be helpful if you tell them all the facts around this and not just what your conclusions were around her metaphysical passing and what Lazaris meant by it.

I don't really care about your two friends opinions unless they want to post them and discuss them, no more than you want to hear all of the opinions from all my ex-lazaris friends.

quote:

---

Jach sent out an e-mail to us (members of the forum) about Michaell's suicide (I saved the e-mail) and he said that Michaell said his final physical good-byes to Peny in the early morning hours of that day. That's strange because it says in the Orange Co. Sheriff's report that Michaell told them Peny was fine when he went to sleep and when he woke up to give her the medication she wasn't breathing. How could he have said his final good-byes to her if she died unexpectedly? So did Jach lie to all of us when he sent out that e-mail about Michaell's suicide? Sounds like it.
Also if Michaell said his final good-byes then there must have been a reason - like he knew she was dying. That is not what Lazaris said.

---

I'm puzzled as to why you didn't address this part of my post when it is so important to the discussion. If Peny said her final good-byes to Michaell then they knew she was dying. Lazaris led us to believe Peny was fine and decided to leave in her sleep. Why did you fail to mention this in your post? These are facts, not my conclusions, and very important to the discussion about Lazaris lying.

quote:

---

I recognize that if you've already decided Lazaris doesn't exist, this apparent discrepancy is just another nail in Jach's coffin. But to someone without hostility, there is nothing at all unusual about a channeled entity furnishing a startlingly peaceful metaphysical explanation of a painful death.

---

I did believe Lazaris existed. For almost 14 years and I lived my whole life according to his teachings. Do you and your "smart" friends believe he exists? I want to know.
You think you are without hostility but plenty of it showed when you first posted to me. One of the others in here posted a message to you about it. (If you missed it please go back and read the posts).

Sincerely,

Mickey

quote:

---

I heard Lazaris say on a tape, "We never lie. We have a penchant for telling the truth." He did lie about Peny's death.

---

I have heard the same. "We will never lie to you," in various forms through the years. Plus various tapes on honesty and integrity, character, trust.

There has been a double standard for these qualities. One for "Lazaris," Peny and Michaell -- another for paying customers.

I don't have time to go thru all of the old posts so forgive me if this is a repeat.

I was listening to the lazaris tape:
Healing: The Nature of Health I (#401) and lazaris was talking about diet. He said to find what's right for us - make it balanced and that our physical body would let us know if we were doing it right. He also suggested we speak to our counselors. (Why didn't Peny?)

He said when we got the whispers we should pay attention to them and handle them quickly so we don't have to move into an illness BUT if we do move into illness to do whatever we needed to do even if that means going to an allopathic doctor.
if that is what we wanted and then he added that maybe not. He made it very clear that it was acceptable to go to the Dr.

If Peny had listened to and worked this material she wouldn't have been morbidly obese and all the complications that arose out of that illness. I wonder why she didn't decide to see an allopathic doctor. Did anyone of them even remember what was said on the tapes?

I wonder how Jach/CS rationalized the contradictions about the lazaris material and Peny or were most people afraid to bring up the subject?

I am listening to the tapes (uggghhhh)and will be more than happy to post the contradictions in here.

Just the facts, not my conclusions.

Sincerely,

Mickey

I'm moving a part of my post from another topic into here because I feel it is relevant to this discussion also.

quote:

---

lazaris said that longevity was the ability to live a healthy and long life, to be vibrant and alive, not a vegetable that is wheeled around....(too bad his intuition wasn't working when he used this awful term)

He also said he was working with doctors and scientists behind the scenes with the health problems we were facing so that we could move into the realm of longevity.

He said we would have dominion over aging and would learn to speak with the cells to work with them and keep them healthy and bring them into a place of harmony and balance.

lazaris said we could live to be 120 yrs. old and then when we chose to leave the body we would leave it by conscious choice.

---

What lazaris says on this video (The first papagraph), "The Future and How to Create It" definitely contradicts the information on peny's death.

Sincerely,

Mickey

quote:

---

lazaris said we could live to be 120 yrs. old and then when we chose to leave the body we would leave it by conscious choice.

---

He forgot to mention I guess that our conscious choice might involve a failing heart, painful skin lesions, complete debilitation, fear of doctors, gross neglect,
pain pills, and vodka, and that it could take place 66 years early. Or, did I miss that seminar?

Katie

quote:

---

That's courage - to go forward in the face of fear. I'm still surprised at the amount of fear people have about this. I didn't want to believe it was a fraud, but I don't think I had that much fear. I did have fear whenever I posted in the J&L room, though.

I lived a reasonably successful life for 34 years before hearing of Lazaris. It doesn't make sense that I should be so fearful of not having "them".

---

I loved lazaris. I always brought him along in the car, asked him into my dreams before I went to sleep, did the meditations which I really enjoyed. Played the tapes thru the night and sometimes watched the videos.
When I shut my eyes to go to sleep I programmed (or processed) until I went to sleep.

I had a friend whom I loved and thought he would be with me now thru eternity.
I could not even imagine my life without lazaris in it and didn't want to.

My Dream was creating the abundance so I could attend all the workshops & seminars, to stand before lazaris during the crystal ceremony. I believed that the love was real and someone (laz) cared enough about us to help us end the pain and suffering so we could grow thru the joy and happiness.

Facing that report that day was one of the hardest things I've had to do.

lazaris was not only a part of my life - he became my life.

The fear I felt before I opened the report was that if it was true, I was about to lose the object of my love for not only 14 years but for the rest of my physical lifetime and eternity as well. I also was going to lose that uncondional love from lazaris. There was a lot resting on that information.

Now I'm on a new path, finding the truth and posting it in here.

Sincerely,

Mickey