I found your article a very clear and cogent summary of the varied information around. I have spent quite a lot of time reading bits and pieces from various sources, including Steve Hassan. Your article would have saved me some trouble!

I liked the distinction you made between the psychological and sociological studies that have been made and how they seem to exist independently without reference to each other. I think this is interesting because it is how society operates as a whole. 'Normal' people are here, cults are over there and the two don't mix. As you have shown, this is not the case.

I have a couple of questions about mainstream religion and society as a whole. Do you think that mainstream religion is exempt from cult status? I ask this because I am a cradle catholic who was brought up to believe in all kinds of stuff. Jesuits say 'give me the boy until he is seven and I'll give you the man'. As far as I'm concerned the catholic church could teach a thing or two about mind control.

My other question is about society as a whole. Do you think that a statement like 'the cult of consumerism' is talking about the same kind of mind control? After all, advertising works (if it didn't companies wouldn't spend so much on it).

I wonder if the 'normals' just don't question their own mind controlled status because there are more of them
and therefore their views are acceptable. Also the 'authority' figures legitimise it and the experiment you described shows how much obedience to authority influences people.

Humanity seems to have a deep desire for connection to something. The potential for exploitation is immense.

Thanks for your article. I enjoyed it.
ali

Great job!

You stated how the research done at the Boston Church of Christ showed how the personality types of individuals shifted toward that of the leader. This should be scary stuff for FOLs!

BTW, I think the "What is a cult?" section needs some clarification. You state that BCC "provides a theoretical basis for describing a group as a cult". However, you never come out and state what that basis is. If the basis is the change of personality over time, I think that this is probably a byproduct of most cults, but not an inclusive enough description of a cult. The description also applies to other processes such as individual psychotherapy and drug/alcohol abuse. I think it would be helpful to start the section with a paragraph stating what you see a cult is from the "psychology" perspective and then use the BCC study to back up the claim.

Thanks for the hard work. I found it very valuable.

I really enjoyed reading through your article. You did a great job of providing a very succinct overview of cults and how they work.

quote:

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accepting the idea pays a social debt;

it is consistent with other ideas that the person has accepted;

a lot of other people have accepted the idea;

the person presenting the idea is liked;

the person presenting the idea is in a position of authority; and

the idea involves access to a scarce resource.

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This was new to me, I hadn't seen this list before, but I find it particularly interesting in light of our interactions here on this message board.

We have literally had people coming arguing on behalf of the L material using some or all of these same criteria, and it goes without saying that we have some playing the personality game. "See how nice and loving I am, therefore, I must be right." or See what a mean bitch so and so is, therefore they must be wrong."

Needless to say, this dynamic is very much understood by everyone from marketers to mind rapists.

Maybe someday soon we will be able to interact from a place of committment to truth and honesty, and that will become the new criteria for popularity and appropriate social interaction.

Maybe that is heaven, and this world of shallow dishonesty for the sake of popularity and social acceptance will be recognized for the hell it creates.

Thanks for all your hard work on putting this together Pete. Well Done!!

Katie

I don't know what I think about mainstream religions. Catholicism has some rather cult-like aspects, IMO, such as the idea that the Pope is infallible (on matters of doctrine).
I think marketers use many of the same techniques cult recruiters use; it's rather unethical coming from them too, but it's the way our society works. (The Cialdini book talks a lot about marketing.) Some people seem to shop in a way that looks as though they are addicted to it; is this a genuine psychological problem that they have, or are they really victims of unethical marketing?

Craig,

I agree with the point you make; I will clarify it in my next revision.

Katie,

The list comes from the Cialdini book; of course Cialdini is also behind the influenceatwork web site. The book is well worth reading, but I think it's out of print. He has written another one which I guess includes some newer ideas. I will probably get that one too at some point.

My Con:Sin analysis of these cult traits:

accepting the idea pays a social debt;

Probably not in the sense it is meant. Con:Sin does though put forth the idea that those who use the techniques are making the world a better place.

it is consistent with other ideas that the person has accepted;

Very much so, it would appear that Jach studies up on all the newest rages within the "new-age" school and miraculously manifests them into new Lazaris techniques or "must have" toys, like crystals, talismans, and of course we can't forget that lovely tie-dyed "Goddesswear".

a lot of other people have accepted the idea;

Pretty much the same as above. Jach is known to abandon any information that doesn't click with the followers, draw crowds and sell tapes. All of the fundamentals are lifted from "tried and true" sources.

Also, within the community, anyone who doesn't accept a given belief is in negative-ego.

the person presenting the idea is liked;

In this case loved mindlessly.

the person presenting the idea is in a position of authority; and

Lazaris is the final authority on all things.
Peny was his human counterpart, and now we see Jach more and more assuming a position of spiritual authority on his own. Con:Sinners are surrounded by authorities. Good and faithful FOL's become authorities in their own right.

the idea involves access to a scarce resource

Lazaris' wisdom and love are a scarce resources, available only to followers, and in greater abundance relative to the amount of cash spent.

This is a fun exercise. I had an enlightening time filling out Steve Hassan's form for submission of a group to his cult list. Fortunately, I got a lot out of it myself, but given that I noted the cultish behavior within Steven's own circle, my submission got "lost".

I still think it would be a great thing if others would submit their own experiences to
Steve so that he would include Con:Sin on his list of suspected cults. Add a few compliments and ego strokes to Steve just for good measure.

I don't like Steve personally, but I think his site is awesome, and that it would be a great thing to have Con:Sin come up on his long list of questionable groups.

It's a good way to each of us to evaluate our own thoughts about whether or not Con:Sin functions as a cult.

https://www.freedomofmind.com/resources/submitinfo1.asp

Katie

Steve says he wants volunteers to help with the freedomofmind site. Perhaps you should offer. I'm sure he'd be really pleased to hear from you again!

I think the Catholic church is a mega cult qualifier. First there are lists (venal & mortal, I believe) of guilt inducing "sins." Absolution only comes through the confessional priest. There's the highly symbolic communion "feeding" of spirit to the flock by priests. Aside from guilt there is tremendous fear of eternal damnation to "hell." The church is expert in use of guilt and fear to manipulate and control.

There are also dictates about sexual intercourse, procreation and birth control (genital/libido control). Female Catholics are not eligible to become priests (sexism). They are also very controlling about marriage and divorce. Look at the (wealthy) Catholics who have had 20 year marriages, that included children, annulled because divorce in unacceptable.

And then there's the almost-God, Pope. I like to imagine him in dockers, a plaid flannel shirt and some old loafers, smoking a cigar.
Burn all the damn pompous authoritarian robes.

Jade

Re: catholic church

Don't forget that if a catholic wants to marry a non-catholic they have to agree to bring the children up as catholic, the required attendance at mass, purgatory (where unbaptised babies go, I suppose it's an improvment on hell anyway!), mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

And some old geezer in a frock is infallible.

ali

Actually I did volunteer to help out with Steve's site at the same time I sent in my
questionaire. Steve's webmaster claims he never got either.

As you know, Steve is too busy doing his important work to address the cultish behavior within his own group, so I've decided not to burden him further.

We can't be wasting the time of important people like Steve with our puny concerns now can we? Everyone knows that disfunctional relationships only exist within identified cults. Silly me for thinking otherwise.

Someone recently asked me if I thought my Catholic upbringing softened me up for the cult kill.

My immediate reaction was NO, of course not!!!

Then I remembered to think.

Now my answer is YES, of course it did. It isn't only because I think the RCC is a cult, I think all religions are cults actually. The degree of destructiveness varies, depending on how much weight you put on the significance of using intermediaries to gain wisdom and enlightenment, but I can't think of any religion that doesn't make some kind of cultish demand.

The RCC though is a very mystical group,just loaded with rituals and symbolisms, all the result of it's incorporation of the old religions and customs as a way to superimpose itself over them IMO.

I now recognize that growing up in a Catholic community, and being educated in Catholic schools provided me with a very fertile foundation for my ready belief in new-age philosophies and mysticisms, not to mention a taste for ritual and specialness.

Don't forget, Catholics, like many other religions teach that it is only through them that we can get into heaven. It is the ONLY True Church!!!

I'm still dying to visit Rome though!

Hey Jade, how dare you dress down my Pope???
Can you imagine how upsetting it will be to finally have my private audience with an old guy in dockers? I just don't think it would be as much fun to kiss the ring under those circumstances, and you know I can't wait to get on my knees and offer my smooch to God.
Can't he at least wear a modified purple cape or a whirley bird cap or something to distinguish him? I need my dose of specialness!!!

Oh, the catechism!! I want one of those!!

Hell, I'm going to e-bay right now and see if I can find one.

Did you ever try to remember your catechism questions?

Who is God? (I forget the answer!)

Why did God make me? (To know him, to serve him, and to be happy with him forever in Heaven??? was that it???)

I think there are probably a lot of clues to be found in reviewing that stuff that was foisted on us before we could really think it through. There is a cult tactic if ever there was one. Indoctrinate the babies.

Damn, I used to have so many nightmares as a kid after hearing those nuns teach us religion. Fear, fear, and more fear. Another cult tactic.

I remember the Baltimore Catechism started off with:

Who made me?
God made me.

Why did God make me?
To have fun and learn how to consciously create success... Oh,on, that's Lazaris...
The real answer was "To show forth His goodness and..."(I forget the rest)

So even God needs to strut His stuff, I guess. I hope He didn't give that "goodness" to His ego...

You wrote:

quote:

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...Fear, fear, and more fear. Another cult tactic.

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I remember when I was knee-high to a grasshopper, I received the ashes on my forehead for Ash Wednesday. After a few hours, the ashes wore off, so I dipped my finger in an ashtray and put cigarette ashes on my forehead. One of my siblings informed me that this was a Mortal Sin! I hope I remembered to confess, otherwise I'll go to Hell!

Mortal sins are like felonies and venial sins are like misdemeanors. I'm not sure what the difference is, since I think either one will land you in jail if you don't confess it. Maybe venial sins land you in purgatory instead? Then your survivors must bail you out by donating to the church.

The church would publish the amount of donations from each family, thereby shaming those who didn't give much. Meanwhile, they claim the reason they force students to wear uniforms is to prevent judgment based on a student's ability to purchase stylish clothes.

C:S starts to look benign when I remember all the BS perpetrated by the Catholic Church.

Just happened to have a catechism lieing around (not mine, honest!).

Scary stuff.

2. God made me to know him, love him and serve him in this world and be happy with him forever in the next.

It continues with incredible detail about what god etc is all about.

241. How soon are children bound to go to confession?

Children are bound to go to confessions as soon as they have come to the use of reason and are capable of serious sin.

Turns out this happens when you're about seven.

100. Can the Church ever err in what she teaches?

The Church cannot err in what she teaches as to faith or morals, for she is our infallible guide in both.

and, not in the catechism, but my personal all time favourite prayer for children on going to bed: 'If I should die before I wake I pray the lord my soul to take...' - Guaranteed to give you a peaceful, secure nights sleep.

You're giving me a flashback!!!

Help!!!

Hey, and don't forget the bleeding Jesus hanging all over our houses and worst of all right over our little baby beds,there's a nice sight for the middle of a dark night!!

We used to have those crucifixes that opened up to contain the necessary articles for the last rites just in case we did happen to drop dead in our sleep. All very comforting!

You said the thing I wanted to say, but didn't have the nerve.....!!I heartily agree that all religions are cults.!!

Do go to Rome..!!! I think you will find it "enlightening" especially there is this Grrreat Vatican gifty shop, where you can pick up a vatican tie for Ted.

The thing that really struck me (as an 'merican)and given no-bible learning when I wuz a kid...thanks be to jeeeeezusss... was the history...
I was jolted by the sheer brilliance of all that (probably) Aztec, and Inca gold and silver.
I shuddered when I realized the sheer amount of blood spilled, and pillage, in the name of the catholic church. and all that is HOLY

Another spooky, spooky place was Sevilla in Spain, oh jeeeezus the weight....like getting punched in the stomach.....

there is too much there to go into, but some strange artifacts I saw that I never knew about Catholic religion were these little body parts of (I guess) famous saints and priests... like little enbalmed bone shards, stuck onto these Elaborate crosses.! yuck..truly greusome...oh yeah..AND.... ENCRUSTED with---Colombian-INCA ---EMERALDS, thanks Pizzaro...

I got vivid pictures of anointed cardinals holding thess crosses above kneeling peasant spaniards, while preaching some shit about how great their god is and the holy catholic church....shit...

What it brings up in me is that we've been being LIED to since the beginning of time...

I'd love to see the death of religion. in my time...YET...I fear for what would repalce it...

One happy note I'd like to end this on
****one COSMIC FOOL to another...........

Yesterday was a great day to Truly CELEBRATE.!.!. as we saw the (literal) unveiling of those poor oppressed women, and men formerly under the Taliban in Kabul finally set FREEEEEE, (from a vicious cult that is)....(don't want to venture a guess at what's next)

That gave me joy - to hear about their blasting MUSIC, and flying KITES, and showing their newly unshaven faces and unveiled heads.... brought tears to my eyes.!!!!

Is there still hope that we can look oppression in the face for what it is and eradicate it from the planet...!!!
D-ya think..??

quote:

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You said the thing I wanted to say, but didn't have the nerve.....!!I heartily agree that all religions are cults.!!

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It's become pretty clear to me over the past few years that cults are a lot more common than most of us would like to admit. I remember telling a friend once that I realized that my belief in Lazaris was a pretty odd one, and he responded by asking why. He noted that most of his friends believed in a non-physical entity (Jesus).

It's so funny when you think about it that Christians or those from other "mainstream" religions would find the concept of channeling, or Krishna's jumping around in orange robes odd, when after all, didn't we have those Catholic women running around in medieval garb for years?

quote:

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The thing that really struck me (as an 'merican)and given no-bible learning when I wuz a kid...thanks be to jeeeeezusss... was the history...

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Me too. Here in the states we're really disconnected from the roots and history of the worlds great religions, it makes it easy to ignore both.

There is something uniquely educational and thought inspiring to visit both Stonehenge and a huge Cathedral in the same day. After awhile the pattern begins to emerge, the symbolisms in the churches like St. George slaying the dragon everywhere, once you know exactly what that dragon represents.

quote:

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I shuddered when I realized the sheer amount of blood spilled, and pillage, in the name of the catholic church. and all that is HOLY

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As bad as the bloodshed, I think worse is the recognition of the goal, that being to enforce a spiritual belief on millions of people. One has to wonder where we would be if not for the power struggles waged under the excuse of "religion".

Let's face it, the world did not take easily to Christianity or Islam. Both were enforced by terror over thousands of years. I don't know much about the history of Judaism, but it seems to have more peaceful roots. Maybe I'm just ignorant of it's history. Anyone else?

quote:

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there is too much there to go into, but some strange artifacts I saw that I never knew about Catholic religion were these little body parts of (I guess) famous saints and priests... like little enbalmed bone shards, stuck onto these Elaborate crosses.

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Oh, the relics! This was a very important part of the indoctrination process. Some rich guy would fund a cathedral or church, and then spread the word that the body of some saint or another was buried there, and that miracles were occurring for those who visited. This got pilgrims coming in droves, all contributing to the economy of the cathedral community, providing for buzzing markets, attracting the best craftsmen, etc. It was a very shrewd political/economic tactic. He with the best "saint" and most spectacular "miracles" won.

Does anything sound familiar here? Promises of miracles, and economic and political gain on the backs of sincere people who sacrificed beyond their ability in hopes of receiving a "divine intervention"?.

quote:

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I got vivid pictures of anointed cardinals holding thess crosses above kneeling peasant spaniards, while preaching some shit about how great their god is and the holy catholic church....shit...

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Sure, can you imagine what it was like for these propertyless peasants to view the wealth and splendor of these shrines and religious leaders? Most of these people had to wander from town to town in search of work and didn't even own humble homes. The church put on spectacles that dazzled them, and the promises offered hope for something better.

Again, sound familiar?

quote:

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What it brings up in me is that we've been being LIED to since the beginning of time...

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It seems that when left to it's own devises humanity found more meaningful and gratifying ways to address the "non-physical". The problem is that since the beginning of time there has been someone who sees the advantage of inserting themselves into the sense of divinity that it seems all humans experience.

quote:

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I'd love to see the death of religion. in my time...YET...I fear for what would repalce it...

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It's my belief that the crossroads we face have to do with understanding manipulation, how it works, why it works, and learning to function without using it, or being subjected to it. If there is a true "new-age" goal, in my mind it is this. Can you imagine such a world? One where if I want you to get me a cup of coffee I just ask you to instead of whining, bargaining, inciting
your indebtedness to me, flattering you, making promises, etc? And novel thought, how about if you decline I just say "thanks anyway"? There's my "new-age".

quote:

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Yesterday was a great day to Truly CELEBRATE.!.!. as we saw the (literal) unveiling of those poor oppressed women, and men formerly under the Taliban in Kabul finally set FREEEEEE, (from a vicious cult that is)....(don't want to venture a guess at what's next)

That gave me joy - to hear about their blasting MUSIC, and flying KITES, and showing their newly unshaven faces and unveiled heads.... brought tears to my eyes.!!!!

---

Beautifully put, and thanks!

Yes, Let Freedom Ring!!! It is a thing of exquisite beauty.

quote:

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Is there still hope that we can look oppression in the face for what it is and eradicate it from the planet...!!!
D-ya think..??

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If we can understand how profoundly personal the issue is, I believe we can. But, as long as we think it's always someone else doing the oppressing, or falling for the oppression, I think we remain within the cycle.

Lave and Peas to you too Audrey!! We do have cause to celebrate.

Katie

quote:

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I don't know much about the history of Judaism, but it seems to have more peaceful roots.

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Actually I think it's quite interesting to read Exodus and ask yourself what was really going through people's minds.

It is possible that the miracles really happened; it is possible that they were "mystical manipulation". We can never know for sure.

If we take the hypothesis that they were mystical manipulation, Exodus takes on a different and very interesting meaning. We see the Israelites drifting back towards worshipping their traditional gods, for example, so threatening Moses' position. His reaction is to go up into the mountains to "meet God", and he comes back with the ten commandments. Working with the hypothesis that he didn't really meet God, this would fit several of Lifton's criteria.

Also we see punishments getting harsher and the Israelites behaving progressively worse towards their neighbours. It gets to the point where genocide isn't enough for God; he punishes them not for committing genocide but for sparing some potential victims.