It seems as though there's a bit of a back channel discussion among FOLs about this site, the "cowardly" e-mail, and the Peny papers published here.

The trend seems to go something like this. "How do you feel about the information on that website?"

"Don't ever mention that website to me again, it is full of lies and hate. I refuse to discuss it."

"I was referring to the factual information in the police report, did you read that?"

"No, and I don't intend to, it is none of our business. Don't ever mention this to me again!!"

I know this isn't news, but I thought it might be interesting to examine this kind of interaction.

You have to wonder if these loyal, loving, allegedly conscientious "magicians" are taking into account the feelings of the person they are shutting out. This exchange is going on between "friends", people who regard each other as "spiritual family".

As I've read a few of these exchanges, or heard about them, one thing rings through, and that is that the person whose willing, or eager even to discuss the situation is being hurt by these responses.

What ever happened to healthy relationships where it's ok to discuss anything?

The other thought is that people who are thinking and behaving this way consider themselves to be powerful enough magicians to save the planet from every possible horror. They are allegedly "birthing a Virgin Future".

In this Future world they are birthing, I wonder if anyone will be allowed to think or ask questions.

It's sounding more and more to me as though the only thing these magicians could give birth to is another Taliban.

This is such incredible fundamentalist behavior, it's so hurtful, so indicative of powerlessness, dismissiveness, and complete fear, it's just unreal.

I used to have a lot of good thoughts toward the Lazaris followers in general. I've long defended the majority of them as being sincere and honest people.

After a bit over a year of interacting on this site, I have to say I have changed my mind.

I have no idea what the numbers are in terms of how many are of this rigid mindset and outright abusive behavior, and how many are really sincerely taking the time to think and digest this information against the "backdrop" (forgive me), of the Lazaris teachings, but it's clear that there are significant enough numbers of them to keep Jachass in business, and to continue to hurt and do damage.

Us critics, cynics, refugees, those of us who are willing to take the time to think, listen, and respond to all and sundry who have a thought on this matter are judged as cruel, sick, evil, bitter, jealous, etc BY THE VERY SAME PEOPLE who would rather slam a door in a friend's face than bear the burden of having a discussion on an uncomfortable topic.

I'm sure that reading here hurts some people.
Some who have posted here scream loudly how much they've been hurt.

But, I'm trying to figure out how it is more hurtful to allow for a public dialogue than it is to thwart one.

We don't have anyone coming here actually arguing a good point. We have people coming here telling others why they have no right to, or what is wrong with them for doing it.

The pattern repeats over and over again.

All I can say to the "silent lambs" is maybe it's time to figure out the difference between a public forum and a slaughter house.

And maybe it's time to ask yourselves why you are so hell bent and determined to stop any discussion which makes you uncomfortable, why you are willing to turn on your friends, character assassinate people, hide in shadows, and trip over yourselves to be loyal to someone who has bled your wallets, caused you to max out your credit cards, and foisted the worlds most toxic bitch on you as a leader and spiritual example and guide.

Christ, none of this is new, but it still astounds me.

My big question is, who are the really mean, rotten, and nasty people in this equation?

Much Lava and many peas,

Katie

It feels like these people who are so afraid to enter a discussion or confront the facts in front of their face around the lazaris material are fearful of facing the truth.
There has to be a part of them that knows the things that go on in the forum aren't quite right. How those that read the report concerning Peny's death can overlook the facts is beyond me.

I do not agree with the way these people are so unwilling to even have a discussion about
the factual information. I believe they are terrified that the facts are true and want to pretend that everything is ok. That way they can hold onto the dream of lazaris and the one they are building for themselves. If they admit lazaris has been a lie then it means they have been living the lie for how many years they have invested in it.

I believe that if they really believed that all these facts were lies and hate and nothing more they would be willing to discuss them. If that were true what would they have to lose by having an open discussion about them? I think they are lying to themselves and protecting themselves from the truth because they are too cowardly to admit it. Out of that cowardnice is hostility directed towards anyone who wants to discuss the facts and what the truth may be. I also believe they are unwilling to face the pain that they will go through if they admit the facts are indeed true.

I also believe they see us as traitors to the highest truth and even by them entering into a discussion with us places them in a precarious position with the almighty jach since he has "spoken". (The great and powerful OZ)

I remember that lazaris once said on a tape to question what he was telling us. He said to not just believe it because he said it, to think about it and question it. (Too bad jach didn't remember this. Maybe he did and figured it was really bad advice concerning the issues around the spam e-mail.)
Does anyone remember what tape this was on?

Sincerely,

Mickey

I was asking myself why no one is prepared to make a stand, and then I realised that it's all part of the con. The con only works because people feel it isn't appropriate to question.

quote:

---

There has to be a part of them that knows the things that go on in the forum aren't quite right. How those that read the report concerning Peny's death can overlook the facts is beyond me.

---

As I look back at my Forum days, and my own mindless, soul-numbed participation, I do have a certain level of understanding. But,at the same time, I did get out once I KNEW that Peny et. al were full of it.

Peny should have stuck to talking about my negative-ego, that I might have continued to swallow, but the minute she started making things up about me and Ted, our motives and intentions, and spiritual state, I KNEW the truth, and that wasn't what was coming out of Peny's mouth.

The rest has been academic from that point. Peny lied...Jach supports her in lying....why? And the rest is history.

But, this is a PROCESS, and it has to start somewhere. It seems that for most of us, that point is a place of Truth. Once we are SURE that a significant lie has been told, then all the rest of the inconsistancies, doubts, fears, and bad feelings we've been shoving under the rug for years come tumbling out, and it's usually a pretty quick avalanche.

Then the questions become about HOW it happened, not IF it happened that we were so
effectively misled down a primrose path to hell.

But, the point is, that somewhere inside of our conscience, somewhere in our spritual beingness, we are UNWILLING to settle for less than the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth.

Another PROCESS, and one that takes us just a tad bit outside the canned processes provided by Jachzaris.

On the other hand, maybe it isn't even an issue of conscience, maybe it's simply an issue of Love. Self Love, and Love for others.

For all the gripes, assaults, and moaning about what foul beasties us cynics here are, I will stand up now and say that this is a truly LOVING group of people. There is great heart here. Great heart!!

Not the lacy valentine kind of heart, but the kind of heart that is too kind to manipulate another with false and flowery assertions and assurances. The kind of heart that will not lie or twist the truth just to be liked, or give someone else the impression that they are liked, when in fact they are not liked.

We are facing changing times, times when it just might become a matter of life and death to know the difference between truth and bullshit, real safety and false security.
We really will and are in need of knowing how to be truly responsible, in significant tangible ways.

All I can say, is I hope I don't get stuck in a trench with one of the "loving ones".

My sympathy and understanding goes out to all who have found that loyalty and friendship seem to have different meanings for some FOLs.

I very well know the feeling.

This thread got me thinking about how I arrived at my own conclusions. I'd like to put my 2 cents in, or 40 cents because the post is long. I think we have all had a whirlwind year, with many changes and many impactful truths. I certainly am not where I thought I'd be at the beginning of the year, but I am also very grateful for being where I am now. This board has really helped me heal. If that is not the stated mission of CF, it is certainly how I have used it. I hope the lurkers will keep drifting back and checking things out.

I wanted to respond to a few things here because they did plug me in to my journey out of the Lazaris material.

Katie, you said at the first post of the thread:

quote:

---

You have to wonder if these loyal, loving, allegedly conscientious "magicians" are taking into account the feelings of the person they are shutting out. This exchange is going on between "friends", people who regard each other as "spiritual family".

---

You also make another point, Katie...

quote:

---

The other thought is that people who are thinking and behaving this way consider themselves to be powerful enough magicians to save the planet from every possible horror. They are allegedly "birthing a Virgin Future".

---

Katie, you also state:

quote:

---

In this Future world they are birthing, I wonder if anyone will be allowed to think or ask questions.

---

My doubts about Lazaris first came up around this issue: the combination of the "future virgin world", and the whiffs I got of the talk on the Con:Syn forum. I was never involved in the forum, and I don't know Jach (and didn't know Peny or Michaell), but I heard some very ludicrous decrees on politics by Peny. I remember someone touting Bob Barr, or was it Ken Star--PULEESE!--as a great American hero. I'm not sure if it was Peny who did the touting, but she definitely agreed. I heard about the bashings that happened there, and some people I knew were involved on both sides. I steered away from the forum because I wasn't interested in anything Jach or Peny said, and didn't share their political views, but I was interested in Lazaris. I got the impression at that time that forum heads weren't open to discussion, but were more interested in developing a consensus. And, I wondered why Lazaris was so laissez faire through all of this.

Katie, in another statement you say:

quote:

---

I'm sure that reading here hurts some people.
Some who have posted here scream loudly how much they've been hurt.

---

Mickey, you said about the silent lambs:

quote:

---

There has to be a part of them that knows the things that go on in the forum aren't quite right. How those that read the report concerning Peny's death can overlook the facts is beyond me.

---

Mickey, you also say:

quote:

---

I believe they are terrified that the facts are true and want to pretend that everything is ok. That way they can hold onto the dream of lazaris and the one they are building for themselves. If they admit lazaris has been a lie then it means they have been living the lie for how many years they have invested in it.

---

quote:

---

Out of that cowardnice is hostility directed towards anyone who wants to discuss the facts and what the truth may be.

---

Pete, you say:

quote:

---

Has anyone ever come to this board, seriously defending Lazaris and Concept:Synergy?

---

From what I read of Brad's posts, he doesn't consider himself to be an authority on the Lazaris material. But, it seems he does have an affinity for the material even though his experiences with L have been few.

In Brad's first post, 10/19/01 (12:22PM), he says:

quote:

---

I have been to a few weekend seminars as a guest of C:S, but have not attended any live events for several years. I own one book by Lazaris, and engaged in one half-hour telephone reading with Lazaris, about five years ago, part of which impressed me positively. That is the extent of my involvement in Lazaris teachings.

---

Now, Pete, I'd like to talk about the flame issue because it deserves some attention. I'm curious about ahy you brought it up. I'll share my thoughts with you, because I have flamed on this board. I have had to make choices about my flames--to flame, or not to flame--when I come across the L defenders. I have talked myself out of many. When it comes to TedC and Chris, their gaminess was so obvious and so offensive to me, I threw off the gloves. Maybe I shouldn't out of respect for the other posters here, and even for the sake of the lurkers who are dealing with some tough issues. But, my commitment to myself is to be as honest, and that means emotionally honest too, as I can be. I don't think it will serve any of the lurkers to sugar-coat, either. If someone reads a flame and says they are avoiding CF for that reason, when the flame has nothing to do with them, that is a manipulative act. And, if someone comes here, is offended by the discourse, and proceeds to flame people, I take offense to that and may or may not return fire. My choice.

Pete, I hope you are not offended by my flames, and you have certainly not been the target. I flame for the reasons mentioned already. Again, I consider this board to also be about people's private healing experiences. Anger, outrage, hurt, pain, fear, all of those things are worthy of expression and part of the healing. Anyway, enough said.

Ciao for now,
SpiritWriter

quote:

---

I was asking myself why no one is prepared to make a stand, and then I realised that it's all part of the con. The con only works because people feel it isn't appropriate to question.

---

I think this is a good point. People absolutely do feel that it is not appropriate to question the L materials, or the behavior of the Gang, and that is taught and reinforced constantly in the Forum. Every siege in that Forum that I can recall was the result of someone asking a question. Then for the next three months the Gang hammers endlessly away at all the reasons the questioner was everything from a whiner to a potential murderer. (Seriously!)

Of course, that is in the Forum, so the sin of questioning has to be further committed in trying to ascertain if the same conditioning is present in the materials themselves. I'm interested in hearing what others have to say about that.

quote:

---

Katie and Ted: I can understand why you get frustrated sometimes. Katie or Ted bin Laden isn't a name I would choose for myself... I remember with my group that there were some innocent victims. Then there were some people who, I think, enjoyed the opportunities for nastiness that the group gave them.

---

There is no doubt in my mind that the Lazaris community attracts some people who are just fundamentally nasty to begin with. Most of the Gangsters were "chosen" for just that quality, I'm sure. I remember writing a particularly scathing post to someone who had criticized Peny, and having her write to thank me and compliment me on my writing style. Positive reinforcement for any and all nastiness is a routine tactic, as long as the nastiness is directed AWAY from the Gangsters.

We see a lot of the same behaviors exhibited on the neo Forum Lite Site, which is why for the record, the location of that site is not advertised and it is not endorsed here by me.

My "cult alarm" goes off at the first indication of questions being declared abuse in the same sentence with abusive statements. "You are abusing me because you are hateful, sick, controlling, and jealous, and you have hidden agendas."

It's the kind of endless circle of logic that is classic in studies of dysfunctional behavior and relationships.

I guess what it all boils down to is how hard are we willing to work to get to the real Truth of an issue, and what tactics are we willing to employ to prevent others from going further than we feel comfortable to go ourselves.

It goes without saying that when we allow someone else to provide us with the truth, we are in that moment throwing the "baby" of our intellect into the deep and dirty "bathwater" of someone else's agenda.

At that point it really doesn't matter if we throw out the baby or not, because it's already choked and died.

I always love your posts Pete.

I defended the L materials for a while until I found out it was not appreciated. I never defended C:S. Check out the Spirituality thread. I was also willing to talk about any tape for which I had a transcript (about a dozen in all). That was also discouraged. I believe most of the materials are still defensible in and of themselves. However it cannot be done on this board for obvious reasons.

The Spirituality thread you started went on for three pages.

Many people responded to you.

Where are you coming from in saying that your interest in discussing the Lazaris materials was discouraged?

I can't count how many people responded to you on that thread and discussed the Lazaris materials with you.

Now you are saying (in another post) that you were abused there.

What you were there is disagreed with, and with a huge ton of respect I might add.

You really have a very interesting perspective on things.

A quick review of that thread yields a few interesting comments.

TedC to Katie

quote:

---

Thank you for engaging me. I feel you're being respectful

---

Katie to TedC

quote:

---

Yes, I would like to discuss

---

Jade to TedC

quote:

---

I think you are making a rather blind, insulting insinuation about Katie and the rest of us (except Jeremiah and Chris?) in terms of why we were attracted to L, and our desire to grow spiritually.

---

Katie to TedC

quote:

---

And, once again, what is it SPECIFICALLY about the L materials that you like so much, and how have they benefitted you?

---

TedC to Katie

quote:

---

Nice martyr Katie, you're soooo misunderstood!

---

TedC to All

quote:

---

L became entertainment for most people, whether they will admit that or not. He was great! He really was. He was so great in fact that we would rather just listen than do the work. I don't criticize people for that, I did it too.

---

The last post on the thread

quote:

---

Jade,
Well said!
TedC

---

What is your problem TedC?

You said: I believe most of the materials are still defensible in and of themselves.

I would be hard pressed to find a popular source that is not defensible. No matter how many contradictions may be found, a believer will find a way to defend the material.. This applies to everything from inspired material to the writings of Dr. Laura.

I have MANY problems with the materials. I have stated and debated some of them. Others I have not. I understand how you and others may draw different conclusions.

However, no matter how many ways I choose to I look at it, it always comes back to the lies on the Hidden the Broken Alliance tape. This was said by Lazaris, not CS. I find what he said about Peny and Michaell to be indefensible and material. I can not view it any other way. I was betrayed by Lazaris.

As often discussed often, most of what Lazaris says has been traced to others. I'm not surprised some of it works.

So, how effective is the packaging of ideas that Jach/Lazaris has put together? I would LOVE to be able to survey/interview a large cross section of current and former followers.

My general observation has been that the Lazaris followers do not rank well in the following areas:
* Financial success
* Relationship success
* Social success
* Health success
* Happiness

Sure, some people have had successes in some areas. With what certainty can these successes be attributed to Lazaris? Many other causes are possible, the most notable being the general maturing that most go through over a 15 or so year period.

Cheers, Craig

Katie, you wrote:

quote:

---

But, the point is, that somewhere inside of our conscience, somewhere in our spritual beingness, we are UNWILLING to settle for less than the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth.

---

Exactly. What do we gain by lying to ourselves, especially when we are dealing with our Spirituality? What kind of message do we give ourselves when deep down we know we are living a lie and continually tell ourselves we are searching for the truth. We are definitely giving ourselves mixed messages. We say we want the truth and pretend we are getting it.

The hostility and righteous anger towards anyone wanting to discuss the "facts" covers up the lies and the inability to face them.
Blind allegiance to jach who refuses any questions on the matter. Case is closed without discussing the "evidence" and everything is swept under the rug. Now lets all pretend that those evil, hateful people who got kicked out of the forum are trying to get even for that and spreading lies about peny, lazaris and jach. Let's focus on that instead of the truth.

When I opened the e-mail from "concerned friend" I read it and I had a choice. I wanted to just delete it and not open up the cosmic fool page. I felt fear - I mean real heart pounding fear. If the information was correct (without any doubt) then I knew I would have to accept the fact that lazaris was not who he claimed to be. I didn't want that to happen.

On the other hand I knew that if it was true( no matter how painful it was going to be) I would have to give up lazaris.

I chose to find out the truth. I believe there is some truth in what jach/lazaris teaches. If there wasn't he wouldn't have had the following he had. That's not the issue though. The issue is the lies and cover-up and being told that IT WILL NOT BE DISCUSSED and when some us had the courage to confront jach we got kicked out of the forum.

quote:

---

On the other hand, maybe it isn't even an issue of conscience, maybe it's simply an issue of Love. Self Love, and Love for others.

---

How true. It is very self loving to be honest with ourselves even when facing a truth that hurts. That hurt will heal. When we lie to ourselves we are hurting our growth and our very self-esteem.

Craig, you wrote:

quote:

---

However, no matter how many ways I choose to I look at it, it always comes back to the lies on the Hidden the Broken Alliance tape. This was said by Lazaris, not CS. I find what he said about Peny and Michaell to be indefensible and material. I can not view it any other way. I was betrayed by Lazaris.

---

This was the bottom line for me. The truth was in black and white and I could no longer look the other way.

Katie,I'm glad you started this topic. If only one lazaris follower reads it and decides to start finding out what the truth is in all this it is worth celebrating. Celebrating a life and Spirituality that is based on "TRUTH" and not some truth based on lies.

A toast to TRUTH & FREEDOM and to those that are willing to stand up for them no matter what the price.

A toast to all of you (and me) who had the courage to pursue the truth in spite of the hurt and pain.

Sincerely,

Mickey

[This message has been edited by Mickey (edited 11-01-2001).]

I was touched by this line you wrote:

quote:

---

When I opened the e-mail from "concerned friend" I read it and I had a choice. I wanted to just delete it and
not open up the cosmic fool page. I felt fear - I mean real heart pounding fear.

---

That's courage - to go forward in the face of fear. I'm still surprised at the amount of fear people have about this. I didn't want to believe it was a fraud, but I don't think I had that much fear. I did have fear whenever I posted in the J&L room, though.

I lived a reasonably successful life for 34 years before hearing of Lazaris. It doesn't make sense that I should be so fearful of not having "them". But they do insidiously plant those fears. Like by saying that the decade of the nineties was the do-or-die decade. One may think, "well, I've done pretty well so far without a mystical orb, but now the stakes are so much higher. The planet may be destroyed if I flirt with martyrhood. Oh, no". Lazaris pretty much says just that - that we may have gotten away with our negative ego flirtations in the past, but beware the Ides of Orion! The material is chock full of fear, in spite of their declarations of growing through love and joy.

Then there's the fear that we'll lose our "best friend". Why bother developing human relationships when Lazaris loves us better than any human ever could. Then, without the human relationships - and our own relationship with God, without the Orb, our alleged Higher Self, etc, in between - we are that much more dependant.

Maybe some people were absolutely miserable before meeting "Lazaris", and fear a return to that paradigm, but I suspect most of us were doing just fine, in general. Some said they met Lazaris at a low point. We all have low points, but rejecting Lazaris doesn't mean the rest of our lives will be that low point we were tempoarily experiencing before meeting the great panecea.

Those who were destitute would probably have responded to just about any self-proclaimed guru. It doesn't take much to elicit hero-worship if one shows a person an alternative to living in the gutter with a needle in their arm. Any normal, functioning person can do that. Maybe if more of us did, we would have less people taken in by those who see another's destitution as a self-aggrandizing opportunity.

Wow, these are two really beautiful posts. They both touched me. Mickey all of your posts here have been moving to read. (Especially those song lyrics, they got my feet tapping. )

Seriously, your posts are so clear and heartfelt, it really is a joy to read them. I can't imagine anyone missing the sincerity.

Ted you said

quote:

---

. Any normal, functioning person can do that. Maybe if more of us did, we would have less people taken in by those who see another's destitution as a self-aggrandizing opportunity.

---

Not just destitution, but fear of destitution. Fear is woven through the whole deal, from start to finish. No Fear, No Cults. Courage, or false security?

And yes, we can function for each other in every positive way that we believed did, or any other guru, counsellor, teacher might.

But, the reverse is also true. We can also function for each other in every negative way the Con:Scam did.

If I had to sum up the source of the major conflicts on this site it would be this. Actually, I'll broaden that and state it to be the source of much conflict in general.

To be in a dsyfunctional relationship or not to be dysfunctional? If only we asked that question. Bring out my crystal skull.

Maybe some day we'll all learn and all get it right.

Katie

I brought up the issue of the flames out of fairness to some of the posters. If I hadn't said that, it would have sounded as though all the abuse complaints were unjustified which I don't think is quite true.

You haven't offended me, but I wouldn't write flames myself. Well, okay, so I have done it sometimes, but I try not to. It seems disrespectful. I don't push someone's face in because they disagree with me, so similarly I don't get into personal attacks on message boards. Also if you want to help people who are in cults, you need to engage with them rather than attack them.

I don't mean this to be too strong. I'm trying to answer the question you asked, but at the end of the day it isn't the most important issue out there.

Katie,

Thanks for the kind words.

My post was not meant as a defense of L or C:S, nor as a defense of all L material. The fact that there is material of value does not excuse L or C:S abuses.

The fact that some material can be traced to other sources is a straw man. As the bible said two thousand years ago, there is nothing new under the sun. All there is is different ways of communicating what is already known.

Whether L followers rank high or low is hardly germane to the validity of the material. Look at what Christians have done to Christianity or Muslims to the Koran.

Most here do not want or need the L material as a spiritual source. That is different from saying the material has no value to any and is a dangerous source to all.

Maybe we could define a "flame" for the purpose of this discussion. I think you and I had this conversation awhile ago, and as I recall we don't agree on the meaning of the term.

My understanding of flaming is when someone is barraged with endless posts full of nothing but insults and nastiness in an attempt to drive them off or just grind them into dust.

Although there have certainly been some insults and nastiness posted back and forth here, I don't recall any "flaming" behavior, not by my understanding of the term anyway.

So, maybe we should come to a mutual understanding on the meaning.

quote:

---

Perhaps in this discussion there is a more fundamental idea than I had realised. Suppose someone takes on a philosophy, say X. One of the tenets of X is that you shouldn't question X. Suddenly you have proved logically that you shouldn't use logic.

---

I'm at a loss to respond because I believe X

That's a mind twister, but I think you are correct. I think we can say that you have logically shown that Con:Sin ultimately teaches against logic.

Now I need my tea!!!

Katie

quote:

---

That's courage - to go forward in the face of fear. I'm still surprised at the amount of fear people have about this. I didn't want to believe it was a fraud, but I don't think I had that much fear. I did have fear whenever I posted in the J&L room, though.

I lived a reasonably successful life for 34 years before hearing of Lazaris. It doesn't make sense that I should be so fearful of not having "them".

---

I loved lazaris. I always brought him along in the car, asked him into my dreams before I went to sleep, did the meditations which I really enjoyed. Played the tapes thru the night and sometimes watched the videos.
When I shut my eyes to go to sleep I programmed (or processed) until I went to sleep.

I had a friend whom I loved and thought he would be with me now thru eternity.
I could not even imagine my life without lazaris in it and didn't want to.

My Dream was creating the abundance so I could attend all the workshops & seminars, to stand before lazaris during the crystal ceremony. I believed that the love was real and someone (laz) cared enough about us to help us end the pain and suffering so we could grow thru the joy and happiness.

Facing that report that day was one of the hardest things I've had to do.

lazaris was not only a part of my life - he became my life.

The fear I felt before I opened the report was that if it was true, I was about to lose the object of my love for not only 14 years but for the rest of my physical lifetime and eternity as well. I also was going to lose that uncondional love from lazaris. There was a lot resting on that information.

Now I'm on a new path, finding the truth and posting it in here.

Sincerely,

Mickey

[This message has been edited by Mickey (edited 11-02-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Mickey (edited 11-04-2001).]

I appreciate you going to the posts, always helpful. More helpful however is not taking them out of context.

If you look at the thread, we had two discussions, one on spirituality in general and another on spiritual materialism. In part 1, you did not want to discuss your spirituality with me. That was okay, but you put me down for asking questions. That was unnecessary.

In part 2, we never reached agreement on what we were actually discussing. Your frustration elicited an outburst (that you fail to quote) which brought my martyr comment.

My mentioning the thread was not to point out abuse but to show that discussions have occurred and were discouraged.

quote:

---

Perhaps in this discussion there is a more fundamental idea than I had realised. Suppose someone takes on a philosophy, say X. One of the tenets of X is that you shouldn't question X. Suddenly you have proved logically that you shouldn't use logic.

---

You said: A tenet that says you shouldn’t question is an assumption, not a logical conclusion. If you make a false assumption, your conclusions are bound to be either false or contradictory.

I disagree. A tenet is not an assumption. It is a tenet (dictionary: An opinion, doctrine, or principle held as true by a person or organization). One, of course, if free to question the truth of the tenet. By disagreeing with the tenet, one disagrees with at least part of the philosophy.

The fact that the person has taken on the philosophy indicates that he agrees with the tenets.

Cheers, Craig

I'd rather not get into the "flame" debate when I could watch some paint dry instead.

I agree that cults teach against logic. Somehow some circular reasoning gets in without being spotted. There is a classic which the Jehovah's Witnesses do; it's quite fun to try to catch them out with this. They like to claim that they are the only true Christian church, and "prove" it by reference to something that they do. How do we know that the something is what God wants? Well, they are the only true Christian church, would they do anything else...?

TedC,

I think I see what you are saying: that a conclusion that you shouldn't question would be logically unsupportable. I agree. However, it may not always be as obvious as I made it sound. For example:

Assumption 1: God exists.
Assumption 2: To be saved you must not question God's existence.

This is being unfair to Christianity, but it's close enough to show how the trick could work. Of course it would have to be presented with much more subtlety. Once you believe this, for whatever bogus reason, you are stuck.

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If you make a false assumption, your conclusions are bound to be either false or contradictory.

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Actually this isn't true. For example:

Assumption: 2 + 2 = 5
Conclusion: 2 + 2 is less than 10.

The bottom line is, there will always be assumptions when it comes to religions and cults. If one is willing to look, they can be found and at that point the person can decide whether it is an assumption he or she agrees with. That God exists is the underlying assumption for all religion (save Buddhism). Yet there still must be other assumptions present before drawing conclusions. For instance, the need to be saved is an assumption. Who needs saving and from what? The question only occurs to an individual, there is no otherworldly entity that comes and says you need to be saved. People believe all kinds of dogma without recognzing it as such. I think this is much more of a problem than any faulty logic cults may employ.

You stated in your post:

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Only after I had entertained doubts, and I had started entertaining other avenues of spiritual development one again, did I come across this information. The timing was really good. Many of my doubts were affirmed, making it much easier to accept this board. And I lurked for a few weeks, partly because I was busy and partly because I was stunned. When I finally did post, I was pretty bruised emotionally yet ready to get to the core of what happened no matter how long it took. I couldn't help but break my silence because that was a part of taking my power back.

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I believe what you said here is so true.
Letting ourselves have 'voice' takes back our power and I believe our 'voice' also helps others to decide to take back their own power back.

It worked that way for me when I started reading in the Cosmic Fool website. I saw others who were willing to post their experiences with lazaris and c/s. I saw others who were dedicated to finding the truth in all of this and willing to post it in here for everyone to see.

I began posting in here, something I never felt free to do in the forum without the possibility that I would be ripped to shreds and then have to process out something in me that caused or allowed it.

I am grateful to Katie and Ted for this website. It's a place where the truth is put up for everyone, not just for a few on the inside circle. Many thanks for helping those of us coming out of the dark (or should I say, "spark of light" )and find within ourselves the real pathway home.

Sincerely,

I have been reading the discussion and have been pondering about many of the points expressed. (Yes, it is refreshing that no-one gets censored severely here).

The absurdity of the Orlando deaths has certainly brought dishonest C/S activities to the surface, even for the marginally involved. But I think that we ought not to castigate ourselves too much, about having accepted much of the material J/L has presented, particularly earlier on.

In re-reading Deepak Chopra I have found many of the concepts which Lazaris has used. Examples are 'reality creation', 'shadow self', even the 'dog star Sirius' and the mythological 'crystal cave' in which the Wizard/magician Merlin lives.
Chopra uses these concepts and mythology in a much more philosophical way. J/L gave these same concepts a different spin and presented them without identifying sources. Cleverly he did that via his tapes in a handily usable form.
As several of the posters here said, J/L slipped into our lives at times of need for readily accessible spiritual guidance. That makes any dishonesty on his part even worse.

I also recall, as Mickey did, that in an earlier tape Lazaris did say, not to just to accept what he said, but to question and ponder it. It makes me wonder, did Jach become progressively devious? I have noticed that the tape content quality declined over time. What would explain that?

My musings do not mean that I absolve Jach from wrongdoing!! Far from it. But I am saying, Lets not throw out the baby with the bath. There IS Merit to the metaphysical. I just need to be much more on guard against symptoms of mental sloppiness.

Mickey said:

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Many thanks for helping those of us coming out of the dark (or should I say, "spark of light" )and find within ourselves the real pathway home.

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You're welcome for the site, I'm glad if it's a help to anyone, although I'm sure you know that we aren't promoting any spiritual philosophies here. I like how you say that we are finding our pathway "within ourselves", because it is my belief that there is no where else to find it. It is nice to be able to share our new observations on that though. It's almost as though we need to really exercise our own spiritual muscles after relying on outside forces for so long.

Sanella said:

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The absurdity of the Orlando deaths has certainly brought dishonest C/S activities to the surface, even for the marginally involved.

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Yes, that and many other observations and revelations. It's interesting to note that the back breaking straw can be so different for each of us, but the response is very similar once the house of cards comes tumbling down. I've found it very therapeutic to participate here because of that. I've learned that each of us has our own boundaries, and it's been a valuable process for me to observe how different people respond when it becomes clear they've been invaded. It's also interesting to note what the boundaries are for each of us, and that for some, there still are no boundaries.

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But I think that we ought not to castigate ourselves too much, about having accepted much of the material J/L has presented, particularly earlier on.

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No, of course not. We had our buttons all set to be pushed, but that doesn't absolve Jach for pushing them for fun and profit. Actually, I don't know that I would ever have given so much attention to the workings of my own mind, or the truth of my own individual spirituality if it hadn't been for this intense experience. It's been a real eye-opener for me, and although I won't say I have no regrets, I can say that I don't have too many. This is a really interesting and stimulating experience for me, and I feel safe in saying the same is true for others posting here as well.

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As several of the posters here said, J/L slipped into our lives at times of need for readily accessible spiritual guidance. That makes any dishonesty on his part even worse.

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There is no question that Jach is an opportunist, all cultists and scam artists are. For me the key is not so much about having been in NEED of spiritual guidance, but in my DESIRE for it. I was doing more than fine before I ever heard of Lazaris, but in my case I now see that I took the bait because I liked the idea of being spoon-fed instead of continuing on to do my own work. There may be such a thing as a valid spiritual guide, I don't know, but I do know now that we don't NEED one, and I sure as hell have no further desire for one. That's my big benefit through all this.

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I also recall, as Mickey did, that in an earlier tape Lazaris did say, not to just to accept what he said, but to question and ponder it. It makes me wonder, did Jach become progressively devious? I have noticed that the tape content quality declined over time. What would explain that?

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If you study the process of indoctrination, you will always find that a lot of truth is being offered, and that the group or leaders always preach against their own behaviors.

It's easy enough to talk the talk, but walking the walk is another matter. It's one thing to know wisdom or logic when you hear it, another to live it. The Fact that none of the Con:Sinners have been caught living up to this wisdom is one of the main reasons I don't believe there is any Lazaris, not a helpful, honest, loving being with integrity. There is no way such a being would tolerate the Keystone Cops show that has gone on within that group since day one.

I think the quality of the tapes has declined for a few reasons, the main one being that Jack has simply run out of material. Another is that he's had to constantly find a way to adjust the "wisdom" to fit into the reality that no one within the inner circle has ever been caught living up to it. As the behaviors became apparent to more and more people, the material had to be adjusted to account for it. Also, I believe that as their financial requirements increased, so has the need for an endless stream of revenue sources. Another component has been the increasing need to control and manipulate. That's a problem with manipulation, it requires a lot of work to keep it going. You can't leave the subject of your manipulations alone for too long lest they begin to think for themselves.
Then you have Jack's clearly childish imagination, hence all the sci-fi fairy tale crap.

And, then there is my theory that the whole deal was really about Jack's need to prop up Peny, so the material became increasingly about the thoughts that popped out of her head, inspired less and less by any true intellectual muscle, and more and more about the flights of her rapidly deteriorating character and spirit. A number of people have mentioned to me that they saw that process at work via their interactions with Peny. She was on constant lookout for marketing ops, and some who provided them in some way have shared that.

I believe that Jack's "gift" only served to weaken Penny, and the materials have been a steady reflection of that erosion.

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My musings do not mean that I absolve Jach from wrongdoing!! Far from it. But I am saying, Lets not throw out the baby with the bath. There IS Merit to the metaphysical. I just need to be much more on guard against symptoms of mental sloppiness.

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No, Jack should not be absolved on any level, he's a criminal IMO. I agree that there is certainly merit to the concept of metaphysics, and that some of that merit is reflected in the L materials, but in no way do I consider that what Jack is doing has anything to do with spirituality, so I can't accept the "baby with the bathwater" analogy in that vein, because that would be too much of a validation.

For me the solution is to remove myself completely from the entire body of bullshit, and go back to square one in evaluating my spiritual beliefs and experiences through a completely different filter.

I'm clear that the judgement could be offered that I have therefore thrown out my spirituality, but what I have thrown out is IMO a pile of garbage, with full faith that if anything that was really mine took the accidental trip to the junk yard that it will quickly find it's way back home.

Thanks to both of you for these thought provoking posts.

Katie

I just realized that I never responded directly to your post. I thoroughly enjoyed it and thank you for your IMO very astute observations.

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Well, it does hurt. But, the hurt may actually be coming from a common sense realization we get when we realize we've been had. When we trust, and are betrayed, yes, it hurts. But, if someone is screaming "Ouch!" over their love for Lazaris, Con:Syn, and Jach, I really believe that is a manipulative statement. Going soft and being hurt when someone says something you don't like, when it is not an angry statement directed at you and it is not intended to hurt you, is a manipulation tactic. I've noticed on this board that when someone tries to go into the gentler than thou manipulation posture, and they get called on it, the hurt suddenly looks more like anger.

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You have to know that it is gratifying to me to have this perspective discussed, because I very much share it.

It has been my observation here that some of our posters have not taken the time or exercised the integrity to get to the source of the pain or discomfort that is evoked here. I think it is extremely shortsighted, dishonest, and ultimately counter productive to "kill the messenger" to beat the poor phrase to death.

Yet, isn't it interesting that those who practice just that here, are the same who scream, yell, and jump up and down that we should NOT do that in regards to the L materials?

I think it would be really awesome if we could collectively get to a place where we hold ourselves to the same standards we hold others, and that would very much include being precise in identifying the sources of our discomfort.

Gotta run, but I did want to respond to this post. Like so many of yours, I really enjoyed reading it, and was moved by your honesty and I hate to sound Forumy, but your vulnerablility. Fuck those bastards for perverting our ability to communicate.

I am glad that you enjoyed my post. You said a few things that I want to respond to.

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Originally posted by Katie:
It has been my observation here that some of our posters have not taken the time or exercised the integrity to get to the source of the pain or discomfort that is evoked here. I think it is extremely shortsighted, dishonest, and ultimately counter productive to "kill the messenger" to beat the poor phrase to death.

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I can certainly understand why people have not taken the time to sift through the material, and brave the discomfort. It isn't a shortcoming of any post on this site, or of the topics per se. To me, it is a function of folks who are into the L material being steeped in it so deeply that any thought to the contrary is scary and loathsome. But, in the face of the enormous contradictions to it that has been demonstrated, and the devastating details about the deaths of Michaell and Peny, I consider it to all be a matter of time.

When you and I spoke last, you said that there will always be those few people who will cling to the L material no matter what. I think that's true. But I also think those folks will be few in number. There are too many inconsistencies in the L material to hold a large group together, regardless of the deaths. And when we throw in the nature of Michaell's & Peny's death, the price for clinging to the material becomes way too high emotionally.

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Yet, isn't it interesting that those who practice just that here, are the same who scream, yell, and jump up and down that we should NOT do that in regards to the L materials?

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Yes, I've noticed. It is interesting and sometimes downright funny. You'd think we killed God or something. It seems to me that all we can do is emphasize what our experience has been, and stick to the facts we have come across. If someone wants to assume that we are jealous, or envious, or evil, or whatever, that shouldn't stop us from what we are doing here. We went through a process--and a painful one. We have an antidote. I want to keep talking about all of this because I can't stand the thought of CS passing its same deluded crap onto another human being.

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Fuck those bastards for perverting our ability to communicate.

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Yep, fuck 'em in the heart for trying. But there is no way that they can possibly succeed.

Ciao, Katie!

SpiritWriter

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Originally posted by Mickey:
It worked that way for me when I started reading in the Cosmic Fool website. I saw others who were willing to post their experiences with lazaris and c/s. I saw others who were dedicated to finding the truth in all of this and willing to post it in here for everyone to see.

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I guess we both could say that the first step was the toughest one to take. And, I'm certainly glad I did. I started to feel my life again. It was the strangest thing. I had no idea how estranged I had become from my own thoughts.

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I began posting in here, something I never felt free to do in the forum without the possibility that I would be ripped to shreds and then have to process out something in me that caused or allowed it.

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I never participated in the forum, not even to read the posts. I couldn't really see the point in it. Now I'm really glad that I didn't. I'm glad to have you here. Your posts have been very healing for me. I really enjoy your candor.

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I am grateful to Katie and Ted for this website. It's a place where the truth is put up for everyone, not just for a few on the inside circle. Many thanks for helping those of us coming out of the dark (or should I say, "spark of light" )and find within ourselves the real pathway home.

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Ciao, Mickey!

SpiritWriter

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It was the strangest thing. I had no idea how estranged I had become from my own thoughts.

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It really is stunning to realize how self alienating and disempowering the "Lazaris" material is because it was supposedly having the opposite effect. Bravo for you taking back your mind.

Jade

Thanks for the strokes, Admin Goddess!

Ah, now you have proved that you are ready for the next level of membership. You have been promoted to a CosmicEmpress. Send your subscription to Katie and we will give you access to the secret password protected site.

I'll e-mail Katie my affadavit, along with some green monkey dust for causal plane travel. If my background is good enough, and I pass all the security checks, I feel quite certain that she'll endow me with the crystal ring of majesty.