Hey Brad,

[Brad wrote]

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It seems to me that Lazaris offered an explanation of Peny's metaphysical passing, and there is too much tangling going on here between that explanation and Peny's physical condition.

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The Lazaris material makes it very clear that physical reality, though an illusion, is a reflection of a more significant spiritual/metaphysical reality.

Important and significant because of what it metaphorically expresses of the "more real" parts of ourselves and experience of the "allness".

I agree with this perspective.

In short, you seem to be suggesting that Lazaris is describing Peny's death from a metaphysical spiritual perspective and the discussion in this forum is [perhaps misguidedly] focused on the facts concerning the death of her physical body.

Your post seems to suggest there is a split or a disconnect between those physical facts and the metaphysical perspective you say Lazaris is addressing.

One of the cornerstones of the Lazaris material is that physical reality is a reflection of your beliefs attitudes, thoughts and feelings imagination, desire and expectancy.

Physical reality reflects what you believe, feel desire etc., but does not cause it.

In short, Lazaris would say that the facts of Peny's death have metaphysical significance even though they are illusions.

From the Lazarian perspective, Peny's diseases, the fact that she was in so much pain and had so many health complications is communicating something of the "more real".

I digress a moment, using Lazarian vocabulary to make the point.

Lazaris talked about how the physical illusion is always communicating to us with symbols, metaphors and messages.

Ranging from what he termed "whispers" to "shouts"

A whisper might be banging your elbow, a shout might be having the doctor tell you your elbow has to come off.

Lazaris conceptualizes these messages on a scale of intensity that increases or decreases based on the willingess of the person to hear and respond to those whispers or shouts

To return to the example: Say you banged your elbow and interpreted that as a message from other parts of yourself, via the illusion, that you are trying to "elbow your way through life" and that you are "banging up against those beliefs"

Say you saw that and changed the beliefs, thus changing the experience and having heard and responded to the communication, eliminate any need for escalating the whisper to a shout.

If say, you chose to interpret banging your elbow as:

"somebody's negative ego put that wall there to make my life miserable because I am the greatest person on the planet, the most special, the most evolved and they are jealous of me and all my crystals and my big house."

Then, as Lazaris conceptualizes it, your reality would escalate the message progressively to a shout until you heard it.

I don't think anyone would deny that Peny's reality was "shouting" at her at the time of her death.

I say this without judgement. There is certainly nothing "wrong" with being sick or being in pain and it doesn't, in my opinion, imply anything about the state of her spiritual evolution.

What is also significant, and in my opinion, cannot be parsed is that a very definite attempt by CS and Lazaris [if in fact, Lazaris is still present] was made to edit out the truth to present a palatable myth supporting documented falsehoods.

These documents do not just exist in my reality or yours but also in Jach's.

Saying that Peny impulsively decided to leave her body may be true, but the likely reasons for that, the pain and the illness and perhaps unhappy life circumstances that informed that decision were not admitted to.

Not that we have to know every detail of her suffering but the fact that she was suffering at all was lied about.

Perhaps because they think it is shameful to suffer, to die, to have illness.

What could be motivating this coverup but shame and perhaps greed or self preservation?

[Brad wrote]

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It is Lazaris's job to provide metaphysical perspectives that, if I'm not mistaken, often recast our physical perceptions.

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Yes true, but within the context of what Lazaris teaches your point [as I understand it] doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Lazaris often said in effect " if you create something painful, don't throw the experience away and pretend it wasn't, understand the reasons, and learn from it.

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I recognize that if you've already decided Lazaris doesn't exist, this apparent discrepancy is just another nail in Jach's coffin.

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Personally, and I know your post wasn't addresed to me, I have come to no conclusions yet as to who or what Lazaris is.

My only conclusion is that that Concept Synergy is a highly questionable business operation and that the Lazaris material after the mid 80's changed from an open and interesting philosophy/discussion to a [for the most part] self serving fear driven enterprise.

Who or what Lazaris is, well that is still an open question.

Open, but for me, not the most pertinent question.

[Brad wrote]

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But to someone without hostility, there is nothing at all unusual about a channeled entity furnishing a startlingly peaceful metaphysical explanation of a painful death. Nor does it seem at all implausible that Peny, lifted out of her physical condition, might make a conscious, decisive passing much as Lazaris described.

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Lazaris often said that death is the ultimate healing.

Lazaris description of Peny's death could be applied to anyone. She chose to die.. so does everyone.

Again, what is significant, and what cannot be parsed, is the attempt to cover up the less that flattering details.

Again, it is Concept Synergy and Jach Pursel who clearly have determined these details to be shameful and unflattering

So perhaps the question of confusing the physical and metaphysical perspective on Peny's death is best put to them.

Peace,

Jeremiah

Thanks for once again having the patience to
clarify a discussion using the teachings of the Orb "himself".

This is really the point, isn't it, yet one that often seems to get lost in the mix.

quote:

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So perhaps the question of confusing the physical and metaphysical perspective on Peny's death is best put to them.

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Yes, and therein lies the true rub.

No questions allowed.

We have a huge body of explanations here from FOLs as to how abusive it is to ask certain questions. What I'm still wondering is why? Ooops, yet another abuse. Mea culpa.

Thanks for another conscientiously thought out post.

Katie

Jeremiah said: Who or what Lazaris is, well that is still an open question.

I agree. However, in my own mind at least, I know who he is NOT. He is not who he says he is. He is not an entity that is channeled through an objective medium as he claims.

Is there anyone out there who disagrees? If so, I would be interested in a debate over that issue.

Katie said: No questions allowed.

This is another reason why I view it important to look at the police report. We have no way of asking any questions. We are thus forced to take information from anywhere we can get it.

In the past, people have asked Lazaris during personal consultations about the behavior of Peny. He curtly replied "that is not how we see it". Why didn't Lazaris give a response that was consistent with the observations and also consistent with his claims about her? He certainly could do so while respecting her privacy to the same degree he already has respected it.

YES, this is a very important point you make,,,

We must get our info from wherever we can,,,as we cannot ask questions..!

That is (IMO) the biggest part of being a brain-washed cultified person...you do NOT any longer ask questions, and /or you only take the ANSWERS fed to you by the cult leader, everything.... cuz this leader knows the SEcrets of the universe don't they...of they are a direct link with the almighty aren't they... so give it up, give up your discretionary instincts..

You also make a point I'd like to address cuz it has made me so mad over time...

during the personal bizzarus consultations..
when people who had been HURT by Peny and voiced their feelings and deep questions that this inconsistency created, they were answered with INVALIDATION............
"that's not how "we" see it"

WELL, hell...I'd say to bizzarus-SO WHAT- you have a person who is telling you they are hurt, or confused etc. and bizzarus would DEFEND that..!! hell...no--- you address the persons feelings or their REALITY.....oh compassionate ONE

wouldn't you?? wouldn't a friend? wouldn't a being who knows you better than you know yourself? wouldn't a being who is there even when you don't feel good enough to ask for help, wouldn't a being who you've paid for a private consultation and waited many months for, wouldn't the being that helped your higher self get in touch with you.. etc etc ad-nauseum...

I dunno maybe I just Expect TOOO TOOO much from an ORB that had promised and spouted soo much love(bomb)...

Sometimes a phrase really catches me. Such was the case when you said: ...who is there even when you don't feel good enough to ask for help....

That brought a tear to my eyes.

Katie, you said about the FOL's:

[[[No questions allowed.

We have a huge body of explanations here from FOLs as to how abusive it is to ask certain questions. What I'm still wondering is why? Ooops, yet another abuse. Mea culpa.]]]

In the Lazaris Interview book is Penny's little self aggrandizing speech about herself in the third person where she states that she (or the she of the story) never trusts anyone who won't allow her to ask why.

Pippa

quote:

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What is also significant, and in my opinion, cannot be parsed is that a very definite attempt by CS and Lazaris [if in fact, Lazaris is still present] was made to edit out the truth to present a palatable myth supporting documented falsehoods.

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The whole "Story of Peny and Lazaris" was a myth based on falsehoods, naturally J/L had to create a mythical ending.

quote:

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In the Lazaris Interview book is Penny's little self aggrandizing speech about herself in the third person where she states that she (or the she of the story) never trusts anyone who won't allow her to ask why.

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I wish I would have remembered this quote and put it in the e-mail I sent to Jach after the spam e-mail.

Sincerely,

Mickey

ps I can imagine Jach gets really tired of having to defend all those insightful , illuminating and downright Spiritual truths from Peny and laz. Probably doesn't leave a whole lot of time for allowing all the new information in for the "Coming Home" material. Especially now since there is only one current that takes us all the way back.
That seems like an abnormally heavy burden for one fellar to have to carry.

By the way, excuuuuse some of my grammer from now on. I ain't had as much book learnin' as some folks and their smart friends. If I had studied readin', writin' and 'rithmitic for the last 14 years at least Ida had a degree in something more than a cult learnin' lesson.

You said: ps I can imagine Jach gets really tired of having to defend all those insightful , illuminating and downright Spiritual truths from Peny and laz. Probably doesn't leave a whole lot of time for allowing all the new information in for the "Coming Home" material. Especially now since there is only one current that takes us all the way back. That seems like an abnormally heavy burden for one fellar to have to carry

I think what you said would be true *IF* he took the time to respond to such questions.

You said: By the way, excuuuuse some of my grammer from now on. I ain't had as much book learnin' as some folks and their smart friends. If I had studied readin', writin' and 'rithmitic for the last 14 years at least Ida had a degree in something more than a cult learnin' lesson.

LOL. Perhaps one of our creative comedians could come up with revised lyrics for the Beverly Hillbillies...Something about a man need Jach who stumbled upon a Lazaris act.

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Originally posted by Tim S:
the 'time share' yuppies were an interesting set? don't you thinK...completely mysterious...and they've vanished much in the same way as the INCA tribes have.
Tim[/B]

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Hey Tim,

I know you addressed your note to Jeremiah, but as this is a public board I felt the rare urge to respond….

Please tell me, with as much precision as you can muster, what kind of drugs you are on. They seem really effective, and good drugs are hard to come by where I live (in “my world”).

You must be one of Jach’s faithful. I remember a rant of his years ago. I had asked a question that challenged his “beliefs” and he sputtered “You know, in World War II, the British flew fighter planes, and do you know what the engines in those planes were called? They were MERLIN engines! See? Don’t you see?”

It’s exactly the same kind of non-sequitured, pureed metaphored, scotch-taped allusion that I’ve come to expect from logic denouncing, right brain-impaired, cultified thistle blowers.

Back where I grew up, in the Midwest, people with your inability to link thoughts were gently led into starched white coats that tied in back and taken downstate to Normal, Illinois. There they enjoyed outdoor swings and Jell-O for lunch. The nice nurses were used to hearing about timeshares and Incas.

But, let’s just make a temporary logical link to the word “compassion” that you used in your post. If “in your world” you are aware that the WTC “in our world” collapsed, then isn’t it incumbent on you to avoid the imputation of metaphysical guilt on the thousands who died there, or their grieving families and friends?

The idea that you’ve been “saved” in a preferred probability in which you can look “down” in judgement on the poor, nearly lost souls of an alternate, but necessarily equal probability, is not just hubris. Hubris requires self-awareness and it is clear that your relative degree of self-awareness is about as precise and elegant as a game of Twister.

I assume your “headache” came from an initial attempt to use opposable thumbs on a QWERTY keyboard. Keep trying, there is that 100,000th monkey thing…

And, by the way, do they have spell-checkers in “your world”?

No regard,

I didn't see your post in response to TimS's before I decided to move his post to the off-topic forum, given that I didn't note Jeremiah requesting any spiritual advice, or anyone else for that reason.

In the process of moving the post it got poofed off into the ethers. Maybe Ted still has it in his browser and can put it in it's proper place here, the Lights Out forum, on the off chance someone is interested in reading it.

Your post will stay because it does address the pertinent issues here, those being cult behaviors and thinking.

TimS though, might just be in a category all his own, I can't fathom anyone joining in on his particular brand of mind numbing, manipulative, guilt tripping, cultish "wisdom", although it must be noted that there are people who not only take him seriously but who encourage him.

I appreciate the points you've made, I think it's always a good thing to provide for an examination of behaviors and thoughts like these, which are actually not as uncommon or
abhorrent as most rational people would like to think they are.

TimS has posted some of the most vile and hateful trash of anyone who's ever visited here, so I find his lectures on love and compassion to be questionable...AT BEST.

Nice to see you George,and thanks for taking responsibility to respond to that post with such clarity.

I really do appreciate it.

I saw the message to Jerimiah this morning. Thought I'd go ahead and post this message to TimS.

I was still in high standing in the forum when the twin towers came down. I had worked the Lazaris material and my Vision which was the bridge into that new world of dreams. (Check out the tape: The Future and how to Create It).

lazaris also said on another tape that to enter that world of dreams and the virgin future we only had to make the conscious choice for ourselves and for those that we loved. In fact the only way to not end up in that future of dreams was to CONSCIOUSLY choose not to.
I made the choice to be a part of that future-a conscious choice. That alone would place me in it and you try to say that because we are in the world with terrorists that took out the twin towers we are no longer in the set of the virgin future of dreams. According to lazaris you are way off.

laz also said the ones who would end up in that world of destruction were the ones who choose to give up their ability to create.
Those who stopped dreaming and stopped loving and stopped caring. Most of the people in here are loving and caring. They care about the truth and the freedom to voice that truth. They cared enough about the truth to question jach and lazaris when the truth was hidden. Some of them loved themselves enough to distance themselves from laz, jach and c/s when they found out the truth.

lazaris never said that we had to follow him to be a part of the new world.

By the way, you seemed so concerned about Jeremiah changing his beliefs so he can come into that new world. According to laz YOU can make the 'CONSCIOUS' choice right now in your set to have him join you. Hell, make it for all of us out of love and compassion if what you say is really true.

Sincerely,

Mickey

[This message has been edited by Mickey (edited 11-02-2001).]

I'm moving a part of my post from another topic into here because I feel it is relevant to this discussion also.

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lazaris said that longevity was the ability to live a healthy and long life, to be vibrant and alive, not a vegetable that is wheeled around....(too bad his intuition wasn't working when he used this awful term)

He also said he was working with doctors and scientists behind the scenes with the health problems we were facing so that we could move into the realm of longevity.

He said we would have dominion over aging and would learn to speak with the cells to work with them and keep them healthy and bring them into a place of harmony and balance.

lazaris said we could live to be 120 yrs. old and then when we chose to leave the body we would leave it by conscious choice.

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What lazaris says on this video (The first papagraph), "The Future and How to Create It" definitely contradicts the information on peny's death.

Sincerely,

Mickey

I was just getting caught up after a very busy weekend (great fun, a visit from a long lost childhood friend), and these words struck me.

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laz also said the ones who would end up in that world of destruction were the ones who choose to give up their ability to create.
Those who stopped dreaming and stopped loving and stopped caring.

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Right here is the essence of the shaming IMO.
If we accept this as true then everytime something destructive happens to us, our around us, the thought has to occur that we have failed in adequately developing our ability to consciously create, dream, love and care. No wonder the followers have to rationalize, justify, and even deny the severity and significance of the recent attacks by turning them into smug superior crystal grid ops.

Those people are so much like fundamentalist Christians, when something good happens it's because of their prayer, bad things are the result of the failings of others to follow the right path.

I still wonder how the seeming collective failure of the Forum bunch to manifest health, jobs and relationships continues to get explained away without any sense of shaming. My suspicion is that it does not.
Who else but a gang of shamed but smug individuals would find such terror in the receipt of an e-mail. And, come to think of it, how do they reconcile that direct act of horror into their belief in the above equation about allowing terror or destruction?

Hell, it makes me want to set up an e-mail list and set it on automatic send every hour on the hour to send out some horrific terroristic message like "Bite me Bizzaris".

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Most of the people in here are loving and caring.

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In my experience most people everywhere are more loving and caring than the average Lazaris follower, especially those who continue to refuse to even ponder a few tidbits of "taboo" information.

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They care about the truth and the freedom to voice that truth.

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Hardcore Lazaris followers clearly care nothing for truth, freedom, or free expression, far far less than the average Joe on the street.

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They cared enough about the truth to question jach and lazaris when the truth was hidden.

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If you think about it, every freedom fighter througout history has cared enough to question. Imagine a world in which everyone followed the path of those "mapmakers". Don't ask, don't tell.

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Some of them loved themselves enough to distance themselves from laz, jach and c/s when they found out the truth.

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It doesn't take all that much love of self to ask questions or respond when we know we've been misled and lied to. Even small children have that much self respect. The way some of these people have responded is one more indication to me that there is an incredible sense of shame within that group.

Hell, it isn't an indication, it's glaring evidence.

And, speaking of shaming, do you think it's possible that Jack put some of his shaming whammy on Brad and that's why we're not seeing him around these days?

Katie

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lazaris said we could live to be 120 yrs. old and then when we chose to leave the body we would leave it by conscious choice.

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He forgot to mention I guess that our conscious choice might involve a failing heart, painful skin lesions, complete debilitation, fear of doctors, gross neglect,
pain pills, and vodka, and that it could take place 66 years early. Or, did I miss that seminar?

Katie

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And, speaking of shaming, do you think it's possible that Jack put some of his shaming whammy on Brad and that's why we're not seeing him around these days?

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I suppose that's a joke. I don't know what it means, but you haven't seen me because I lost interest in posting.

Well, thanks for clearing that up. I was wondering why you left in the middle of a conversation that you started.

I feel appropriately boring, and I'm sure everyone else who posted to you does too.

You wrote:

quote:

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No wonder the followers have to rationalize, justify, and even deny the severity and significance of the recent attacks by turning them into smug superior crystal grid ops.

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I'm glad you brought this up because I meant to when I addressed the post to Tim.
He would have us believe he was in a world where the twin towers were still standing. (By the way I really enjoyed George's post. Didn't he event stop to question the fact that jach/laz wrote the forum members via e-mail giving us the reason why it happened and how the damages were mitigated thanks to jach and his blazing crystal magik. Which placed him in the reality with us dimly lit and barely glowin' ex-mapmakers.

And don't forget those Sirius shining ones and ancient ones were working on it.

I also wanted to make it clear that when I quote the wonder orb it is not something I believe in anymore. I use it to fight fire with fire. If the material contradicts what they've (the cult people) written then I will put it in here.

Sincerely,

Mickey

I, too have been waiting for you to address what I wrote to you.

I wasn't sure if it was because you hadn't had time to run the new posts by your "smart" friends to get their opinions, although feel free to post just yours.

You said you lost interest in posting. That's fine. That's your choice.
Wish I had known before I took all that time replying to your last post.

Sincerely,

You lost interest in posting yes?

Though clearly -- not in reading along with every thread RIGHT_UP_TO_DATE.

Yes sir.

Steve

Brad is evidently just sharing his expertise on cyber life.

Peny held him as an authority it would seem,
maybe we are seeing the source of her brand of "appropriate" behavior.

Funny thing, I always thought rudeness to be inappropriate and objectionable in any format.

Oh, sigh, we just didn't make Brad's A list.
No beer and pizza advice for this gang.

I have to agree with you about Brad. I started a small collection of his posts in word because I thought he was getting ready to pop a vein after a few coarse encounters. I read them over last week. Rather than pop, he ran away. I thought of him as a basically well-intentioned person, but saddled with a streak of arrogance. Challenging him is a waste of time and very boring. I will say in his behalf that he certainly didn't shower us with the same stupidity of Chris and TedC, the dickless wonder.

Anyway, I'm sorry I missed the TimS post. He's my very most favorite target. Maybe you can find it for us, Katie. I read George's post to him, and split a gut laughing. George, you are a scream.

I think we established on an earlier thread exactly what kind of drugs TimS does. He does do them, but for really noble reasons like healing the poor fools in this reality, for visiting people in the astral plane, and heightening his superior magical prowess in the true metaphysical reality. I'm with you, George, on the Midwestern treatment. TimS would look really good in one of those starchy white jackets.

Llamas & Porpoises

SpiritWriter

My impression is that Brad, like many who find us posters here to be misguided souls, came here with the thought of straightening us all out in typical "I'm a great person so you should listen to me" fashion.

I don't personally find that to be well-intentioned, I find it manipulative and condescending. I do understand how it could make someone's veins pop though. This site isn't an easy place for people who are used to just stating their authority and then holding court before a rapt audience.

Well, whatever his strategy, he's abandoned it, as most of our other DIY hobbyists have also. So be it. No one is here looking to be "fixed" or to do any "fixing" for that matter, at least not uncontested anyway.

At least he didn't take the usual swipes before leaving, he's evidently smarter than the average bear, and slightly more polite.

You know what they say; ya gotta know when to fold 'em, know when to hold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run.

Uh, oh, do I hear another corny song coming on?

Katie