Welcome!

You wrote:

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I have not reached a full conclusion yet about the realness of Lazaris (to some this may seem incredible, but it is my personality that when my intuition tells me that there are still some big missing
pieces-in spite of the factual data that is before me-I usually hold out before coming to a judgment).

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I don't think it's incredible. I think it's quite reasonable. I didn't conclude that it was a hoax until about a month after Katie did, and she spent some time with it as well.

You wrote:

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The kind of cult in which there are leaders that overtly discourage cult behavior, but consciously create an atmosphere that will convert contacts into member-followers so that they end up with a cult following eventually, if not right away.

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IMO, this most accurately defines the Lazaris cult. I'm not sure I agree that the third scenario you mention fits the description of a cult. If the information truly is credible and empowering, then only a small percentage of the recipients of the information will cultify themselves. People who insist on being cultified will gravitate to that "leader" who plugs into their co-dependancy. And if a true leader saw that a cult was forming around them, they would respond in some way. Either by stopping the entire practice or by addressing the specific cult behaviour head-on.

Lazaris himself - whether real or fraud - has encouraged a dependancy while denying it. They claim that the "mapmakers" pevented World War III by programming during the Kosovo crisis. This implies that without Lazaris, we would be in deep shit since the "mapmakers" wouldn't have known how to process that situation, nor would there have been such a group effort.

They tell us we have crazed murderers living inside of us, such as our "negative ego". We don't need Lazaris, but without them, we are at the mercy of this murderer. They most certainly encourage a dependance on them, and they encourage divisiveness and specialness by declaring FOLs to be "mapmakers" and the rest of humanity to be the "consensus reality". These are two elements of a cult.

Another cult tactic is loaded language, such as the two terms I used above. Part of the loaded language is the hijacking of English words to give them a different, cult-specific meaning. This further divides the cultists from the rest of society in that normal conversation cannot take place. Judgments are attached to words like "judgment", "struggle", etc. So an FOL might be conversing with a non-FOL who mentions that they are struggling with some issue. The FOL concludes that the non-FOL is "in martyr".

The FOL does this to himself as well - if an FOL ever has an errant thought about not being appreciated, off they go to the martyrhood tape. Maybe they're not being appreciated because they screwed up, and the way to deal with it is to improve their job performance. Nah, that's how the Consensus Reality would respond... In othor words, the material seeps into a person's mind and takes control. That is cultish.

You wrote:

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Has anyone read BOTH 'Interviews' books? ... to give impromptu, consistent answers to questions in on-the-spot interviews…that is an accomplishment of another order.

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I've read both books. I don't see them as being so impressive. "Lazaris" has a personality and a canned way of responding to questions. Any good actor can respond to questions from the point of view of their character. Most of the answers are regurgitations of previous Lazaris material anyway.

Speaking of the Interview books - in Book II, Lazaris clearly says that ozone depletion is a real and man-made problem. Yet the Gangsters had a whole thread in the J&L room calling Al Gore and environmentalists liars and scoundrels for suggesting the same thing. Don't these Gangsters read the material?

You wrote:

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Also, I don't now if anyone else has noticed, but I sense some real difference between the early tapes and
the later ones. There is a freshness and 'zap' to the early work that I feel is sometimes missing in the later tapes, and I don't think that I ever hear Lazaris say, "Excuse us" in any of the early tapes (as one hears often in the later works).

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Yes, a few of us have noted that in here. Some feel that it may be a sign that Jach is becoming less of an objective channel. I don't think he ever was. I think he's running out of material and making stuff up, and his heart isn't in it as it used to be. I think he's getting tired of the game. Imagine the stress of living a total lie for close to 30 years!

You wrote:

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P.S.: I just have to say that reading some of the posts in the archives was very interesting, and at times the creativity and sense of humor often made me laugh out loud.

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I'm glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for writing.

You said: No matter how sick Peny was in body, her metaphysical passing could have been quite different, a definitely blissful, one might guess, if she were escaping physical suffering.

I am currently working on a Q&A posting surrounding some of the issues on this site. I haven't had much time of late to work on it, but here is my opening Q&A (in its draft form):
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Q: How exactly did Lazaris lie?

A: We can see an example of Lazaris lying to us if we compare his statements about Peny and Michaell's death in the "Healing the Broken Alliance" tape to the facts that are presented in the publicly available police investigation report surrounding their deaths. Further, information in Peny's and Michaell's will adds important background information supporting the claim that Lazaris lied both in this instance and others.

For those who have access to the tape, I strongly recommend you closely listen to the first 5 or 10 minutes of the tape. For those who don't have access, I will summarize the most important points made by Lazaris.

1) Peny did not die of a disease or illness. She did not die of coronary, cardiac, or respiratory disorders or complications.

2) The medical examiner with autopsy knows the causes were natural but hasn't been able to pinpoint precisely what the causes were.

3) Peny left her body and decided not to return, and thus her body stopped breathing.

4) Peny did not tarry with her choices and decisions. Her actions were swift and decisive. As she had these qualities in living, so she had them in dying.

5) Michaell had a level of commitment and integrity that was both impeccable and unparalleled.

All of these statements sound fine and dandy until we examine them with the facts as made evidence by reports available. Scanned images of the report, along with a summary, are available at http://www.cosmicfool.com/discussion/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000336.html

There are many disturbing details in the report. I will very briefly summarize only those parts that contradict Lazaris.

The detective summarizes the medical examiner's findings:

[[[
Dr. Sara Irrgang concluded her studies in this case and found the causes of death to be; "Respiratory depression", "Multiple drug overdose" and "Toxic levels of codeine and salicylates." She also found the victim to be suffering from organic diseases such as; "Infected stasis dermatitis," "Morbid obesity" and "Arteriosclerotic cardiovascular disease." Dr. Irrgang ruled the manner of death as an "Accident".
[[[

We also are given an image of the death scene. Peny died in the bathroom on a reclining wheel chair. Michaell was by her side in an inflatable bed. The scene was cluttered with "numerous medical devices and equipment including a Cardiassist machine, boxes of 13 boxes of Medifil II, a tank of Carbon dioxide, and several Oxygen tanks."

Michaell was giving her the aspirin and codeine every 1.5 hours for the past 5 or so days. The medicine was obtained from Canada. The medical examiner explains that such a dosage is high for a healthy person and potentially lethal for someone in Peny's condition because of her compromised ability to metabolize the meds. According to Michaell, before that she was drinking Blue Sky vodka to relieve the pain.

According to verbal reports from the detective, everyone assumed that she died from congestive heart failure. There was never a time when the coroner or anyone else was at a loss for any explanation as to why this women might have died.

The report also indicates that according to Michaell, Peny was ill for "several months". We can safely speculate from information such as the October 14, 2001 date on her will and the fact that she stopped posting on the forum that things were pretty serious from at least that point on. Eyewitness reports from the millennium event indicate that she had problems even then.

The detective report alone directly and conclusively disputes the above 4 claims made by Lazaris:

1) She had a multitude of diseases that contributed to her death.

2) The medical examiner found many problems.

3 & 4) Lazaris paints a picture of her going on a flight of fancy from which she impetuously decided not to return. The reality is that Peny was clearly in severe pain for a long time and died of a drug overdose attempting to ease the pain, complicated by her severe health problems.

As far as Michaell is concerned, we also have contradictory evidence in public records that dispute Lazaris' claim of Michaell's unparalleled and impeccable sense of commitment and integrity.

The police report quotes Michaell's suicide note:

...No one knows of my plans, so no one can be prosecuted for helping me (Hey it's my life I'll do with it what I choose)...

This fact is directly contradicted in the police report where we know that Jach and others knew of his general plan. Jach hid this from the police. When the police questioned him about why he hid this, he responded that he said it was a long time ago and he didn't believe him. From Jach's email to select Lazarians right after Michaell's suicide, it is clear that the three had discussed very seriously what would happen in the event of Peny and Michaell's death.

Besides this issue of integrity brought out by the police report, there are others such as his involvement in Tradevest (as documented elsewhere in this site) and other multi level marketing (MLM) schemes.

As far as Lazaris claims about Michaell's commitment, we have the fact Michaell cut off communications with all of his family. Further, we know that Michaell gave his young daughter up for adoption to his ex-wife, allegedly at the insistence of Peny. His will (see...) makes it clear that his daughter should not receive anything in his will. Instead, all money goes to Jach and then to the Republican National Committee if Jach is not around.

Through false claims, Lazaris has forced Michaell's integrity and commitment into the public spotlight.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You said: Why isw Jach responsible for answering his customers' questions about a family tragedy?

He is responsible since Lazaris talked about the deaths for 5-10 minutes on a public tape, Jach sent email and flyers about the deaths, and the death is obviously of great concern as Lazaris presents much health advice (not so much on individual tapes, but certainly during intensives, personal consultations, and occasional weekend seminars dedicated to health topics). The fact that someone who is touted as having unlimited and daily access to Lazaris would have such miserable health problems is a valid topic for discussion IMO.

You said: As to throwing people out of the forum, it might seem heavy-handed. But I can tell you that in my CompuServe days I locked out innumerable people and deleted countless messages. In *every* instance the afflicted person thought I was a bastard, and I *always* thought I had good reason. So I hesitate to judge how C:S enforces topicality or implements their TOS policy.

I find it hard to find anything so offensive in the deleted post that was quoted earlier that would warrant expulsion from the forum:

[[[
Date: October 25, 2001
Message: 88394
Dear Jach,
You said you didn't want to discuss the spam e-mail in the Forum. I can understand that.
Would you be willing to have an on-line conference for those of us that received the spam e-mail?
Obviously there are questions that I and others have regarding some trust issues that I feel have been broken.
I am looking forward to your response.

Sincerely,
]]]

Thank you! Say do you still have the cool Chaldean Numerology tool that you showed at the C:S Forum? That was a clever piece of work.

With regard to scenario #3 in my intro post you said:

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IMO, this most accurately defines the Lazaris cult. I'm not sure I agree that the third scenario you mention fits the description of a cult. If the information truly is credible and empowering, then only a small percentage of the recipients of the information will cultify themselves. People who insist on being cultified will gravitate to that "leader" who plugs into their co-dependancy. And if a true leader saw that a cult was forming around them, they would respond in some way. Either by stopping the entire practice or by addressing the specific cult behavior head-on.

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This was a fault of my writing. I included scenario #3 in my grouping as the one scenario that was cult-like from the perspective of a casual observer (but didn't specify that). In scenario #3, a casual observer in contact with an individual who was, with respect to the scenario #3 (s#3)organization, acting like a cult-member could cause the observer to consider the S#3 organization a cult, even against the best efforts of the S#3 management, and even though the S#3 situation really is not or won't become a cult, some students of the material can make themselves in their personal psychological approach, as a cult member—even if they never meet the leader/manager of the S#3 organization.

Man, if that comes across clear, I will be surprised, but it was worth a shot!

Regardless, your points are well taken, both about non-cult leadership, and the cult-like characteristics of C:S. Also, in most cases I agree that a proper leader can successfully discourage cult behavior.

In response to my question on the tapes, you wrote:

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Yes, a few of us have noted that in here. Some feel that it may be a sign that Jach is becoming less of an objective channel. I don't think he ever was. I think he's running out of material and making stuff up, and his heart isn't in it as it used to be. I think he's getting tired of the game. Imagine the stress of living a total lie for close to 30 years!

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I have thought of this too. I am perhaps not as sure as you are that he is making stuff up,but I have thought of it, I admit.

-Dagaz

[This message has been edited by Dagaz (edited 10-26-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Dagaz (edited 10-26-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Dagaz (edited 10-26-2001).]

Welcome to the site.

You said: Some of the material seems fairly amazing. I mean, this stuff isn't Ramtha or Kryon. Has anyone read BOTH 'Interviews' books? If these Interviews are real (most are attributed to a media personality and media organization) then they are perhaps worth some further scrutiny. I can see preparing & pulling off the equivalent of a three-hour+ one-actor play in two acts-including a hypnotism (if that is what some here would venture Jach is doing)-in itself a significant feat-but to give impromptu, consistent answers to questions in on-the-spot interviews…that is an accomplishment of another order. (Unless of course the questions were sent to C:S beforehand).

I agree with Ted's points about the above. I would like to add a couple of other comments. First, the book is not a list of all of Lazaris' interviews. The interviews that were selected IMO must have been those that made a point in a consistent fashion. Second, I have met people who have similar capabilities in the business arena. His ability is impressive, but more common than most people realize. Finally, we must ask what happened to all of the channeling from 1974 until about 1980 when it became publicly available. That certainly seems like a good amount of time to refine the performance. It would be interesting to know how Lazaris sounded on day one.

You said: Also, I don't now if anyone else has noticed, but I sense some real difference between the early tapes and the later ones. There is a freshness and 'zap' to the early work that I feel is sometimes missing in the later tapes, and I don't think that I ever hear Lazaris say, "Excuse us" in any of the early tapes (as one hears often in the later works).

I have said a similar thing about the apparent deteriorating quality of the material.

The whole issue of saying "excuse us" raises an interesting point. To me, it is yet another hint that Lazaris is not who he claims. I can certainly "excuse" such behavior from a subject channel. However, Lazaris claims Jach does not interfere with the message. Lazaris also points out that he is not limited by time like we are. He further explains how his thoughts are transmitted where they finally end up as "bits and bleeps" that come out as the sound of him talking. The idea of saying "excuse us" seems inconsistent with his explanations.

Here we go with the "what is the meaning of is" logic again.

Mickey posted questions and answered them factually. Lazaris did lie, there is a cover-up, the medical examiner did pinpoint a cause of death and people are getting thrown out of the Forum on a daily basis now for having the nerve to notice.

You can spin that all you like, but there is such a thing as the Truth, and Mickey has spoken it.

I am well aware that within most New-Age circles there is denial that there is any such thing as an ultimate Truth, I've been involved in those discussions more times than I care to recall, including once with the great Peny herself. Circular logic and rationalization are the required tactics of those who insist upon believing in anything that makes them feel good, or that supports their existing belief system.

I don't personally find that approach to life to be very spiritual, or reflective of any kind of true character.

But, I have observed, it is upon this rock that the New Age is built. But just like so much in the New Age, the rock is made of papier mache. It looks good, but doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

New Agers are just the best at protecting against scrutiny. I believe you are doing this here, particularly in this message to Mickey.

It is my belief that there is very much such a thing as the TRUTH, the whole TRUTH, and nothing but the TRUTH, that a fact is a fact,
and that it is a spiritual and ethical imperative to settle for nothing less than that.

When we start taking a situation that is as plain as the nose on anyone's face and debating the relative aspects of how it may be true or maybe it's not true, all we are doing is mentally and spiritually masturbating and never to culmination at that.

Some of us want that Big O, and will settle for nothing less so therefore avoid techniques that never allow for fulfillment.

I applaud Mickey for standing up and speaking the Truth in a clear and confident voice. There just is nothing better than that sound.

BTW, are you aware that months ago Jach stated that Peny was fine, but just off working on other projects at a time when we now know factually that she was very ill?

A lie is a lie, the truth is the truth, and there really can be no debate about it.

Katie

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Here we go with the "what is the meaning of is" logic again.

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Bullshit. These details are important to me. If you don't wish examination to occur at this level in your forum, say so in the introductory pages.

I linked here from an e-mail that offered the chance to learn about and examine new information. The information I've seen so far is open to interpretation--many interpretations. If you are intolerant of alternate interpretations, don't encourage people publicly to delurk. You might get people like me who are eager to think this through carefully and in detail.

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Mickey posted questions and answered them factually.

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Mickey posed questions and added his interpretations. I'll respond to Craig's detailed Q&A (thanks, Craig) when I have more time, probably Sunday night. To people not caught up in the emotional momentum of this site, (myself and a couple of friends reading over my shoulder), there is definitely room for non-damning interpretation of the discrepancies revealed here. Let me emphasize that I'm grateful for you, Ted, Coward, Craig, and everyone else who has worked hard to provide information.

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New Agers are just the best at protecting against scrutiny. I believe you are doing this here, particularly in this message to Mickey.

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Again, bullshit. I am scrutinizing the details more than you and Mickey put together, especially when I tell Mickey not to provide answers when he encourages people to think for themselves! Sheesh, that should be obvious. I don't know where the truth lies here, but I'm damn well going to decide for myself without letting Mickey feed me the answers. I was invited here to look at information, and that's what I'm doing, stripped as much as possible of conclusions reached by others.

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When we start taking a situation that is as plain as the nose on anyone's face and debating the relative aspects of how it may be true or maybe it's not true, all we are doing is mentally and spiritually masturbating and never to culmination at that.

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Statements like this make me think you really don't want examination and discussion at this site. You want agreement. "Plain as the nose on anyone's face"? How coercive is THAT? At this point I'd discourage lurkers from posting in here unless they want to join the psychological momentum.

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BTW, are you aware that months ago Jach stated that Peny was fine, but just off working on other projects at a time when we now know factually that she was very ill?

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Would somebody please tell me why it was your business what was wrong with her, or anybody's business? I don't think you have any idea what it's like to be a public figure. OF COURSE Jach didn't talk about a family illness in a public forum. I have made up stuff myself when somebody asks questions that are inappropriately personal. Your attitude reminds me of some of my book readers, who think they are entitled to one-on-one e-mail help for their computer problems because they bought one of my books. What they get from me is a polite form letter, and maybe that's essentially how Jach handled the extremely difficult circumstance of strangers wanting to know about his home life.

I have been reading through many of the threads and have noticed your posts. Your very first few express opinions on (and experiences with) Concept: Synergy, Peny, Jach and Michaell, which were appreciated if not shared. Your last few have been extremely hostile, defensive, and insulting particularly to Katie and Mickey (a newcomer like yourself).

You mentioned in your very first post that you found this site interesting, but that you would probably not post again. Is it the fight potential that keeps you coming back? It seems as though you have adopted the mission of defending the Lazaris material, even though you admit little experience with it.

You'll find many people who post here have been with the L material for a long time, and there are volumes on this site about the exploration of cult behavior, anti-cult organizations, and many personal accounts of why people were turned off. It doesn't seem that you have read any of those threads. Rather than assume that we have no grounds for what we are saying, and how we are saying it, why not give the threads a good read?

Pete offered you a hyperlink on another thread. Jeremiah has been pulling up many of the old archives to the front of the line. He presented some very good thoughts on the source of the Lazaris material. There are many threads which discuss cult mind sets, and a good amount of information is presented on them which may demonstrate how we became so unnerved. Keep in mind that all of these threads were created long before information about Peny's and Michaell's death, and long before any of us entertained thoughts of legal action. It is simply that, many of us had our opinions validated after the deaths and the behavior of Jach in the CS forum. Those events were the capstones on our rather shabby personal experiences with CS. It took most of us a long time to reach these conclusions after years of self-scrutiny, self-doubt, and pain.

If these issues are of no interest to you, and you are angered by the thinking here, why would you consider ever posting here? As I mentioned in the first paragraph, your first posts were fairly non-committal about your opinions. What has changed all that?

SpiritWriter

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You mentioned in your very first post that you found this site interesting, but that you would probably not post again.

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I said no such thing! Jesus. I won't thank you for making me scour the board for that first post.

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Is it the fight potential that keeps you coming back?

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It's defending myself against your sloppy reading that's forcing me to respond here, even as I'm late for an appointment.

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It seems as though you have adopted the mission of defending the Lazaris material, even though you admit little experience with it.

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I don't believe I've made a single statement in defense of the Lazaris material. I don't know it well enough to do so. I have defended the character of my ex-associates (entirely different matter) and expressed skepticism at the consensus conclusions of this forum (also a different matter). Crap, man, why are you wasting my time?

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You'll find many people who post here have been with the L material for a long time, and there are volumes on this site about the exploration of cult behavior, anti-cult organizations, and many personal accounts of why people were turned off. It doesn't seem that you have read any of those threads. Rather than assume that we have no grounds for what we are saying, and how we are saying it, why not give the threads a good read?

Pete offered you a hyperlink on another thread. Jeremiah has been pulling up many of the old archives to the front of the line. He presented some very good thoughts on the source of the Lazaris material. There are many threads which discuss cult mind sets, and a good amount of information is presented on them which may demonstrate how we became so unnerved.

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I'm working gradually through much of this, and appreciate all efforts.

One difficulty is that we (I, at least, and probably many others) were drawn here by the official information regarding Peny's and Michaell's deaths. Here in the forum, a great extrapolation is being made from those discrepancies to the legitimacy of C:S's entire business. This was unexpected, and I'm not sure how interested I am in the second issue of alleged, sweeping fraud. Here, the two issues are inseparable, because almost everyone here has been disaffected for a long time. I'm primarily interested in the immediate discrepancies, but still, I appreciate the cult information and am diligently working through it.

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If these issues are of no interest to you, and you are angered by the thinking here, why would you consider ever posting here? As I mentioned in the first paragraph, your first posts were fairly non-committal about your opinions. What has changed all that?

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It's too broad to say I'm angered by "the thinking here." I'm pissed at you right now, but at the same time appreciative of your apparently genuine concern that I be informed, and looking forward to easier exchanges in the future. Throughout, even when I raise my voice, I think you've found that I express appreciation for the hard work in this site, and one apology so far.

As to being less non-commital about my opinions, the reason is that I've learned more. I'm still very much less certain than most here.

I suggest you examine your own rather obvious "emotional momentum" -- that's driving you straight into: illogical, thoughtless, expedient 'spin' knots vis. your attempts to say that court admisable evidentuary truth is somehow "not!".

What Mickey presents Midwest plainly -- and Craig *then* lays out in: hard evidentuary fact -- you attempt to emotionally color and *publicly spin* as coercion?

That is: by-the-Steve Hassan-cult-busting-book, unconscious, co-dependent, cult-driven 'automatic' behavior.

Katie asks for thoughtful lurkers to step up and post -- not unthinking, "logic allergic" Con Syn boosters.

You look rather paniced and pissed, running on without any logical or legal basis Brad.

Get real and look at your denial of your very own personal emotional momentum here.

You are clearly defending the logically indefensable.

That is a hard public fact -- now evident to all reading along, worldwide.

Deal with your emotional momentum directly Brad -- don't project it out here.

That is if you can.

Your claim of "momentumless emotional objectivity" is pure: numb, cult-co-dependent, aint-no-bull-elephant-in-the-livingroom crap-o-la.

Steve

You wrote:

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Would somebody please tell me why it was your business what was wrong with her, or anybody's business?

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Lazaris, Jach and Peny made it our business when they declared that Peny was the reason that Lazaris came to speak. When they strongly implied that Peny was special, that she was a masterful magician. When Lazaris specifically said that Jach and Peny no longer had any significant problems to deal with. When Peny used this elevated status to thrash people and attempt to destroy their self-esteem.

The physical conditions of Peny's death are public by law, which is how we managed to know about them.

You wrote:

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I don't think you have any idea what it's like to be a public figure.

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Many of of know what it's like to be judged, have our every word scrutinized and have lies told about our personal lives in a semi-public arena, the J&L forum - by Peny, amongst others. Katie and I know what it's like to have nitwits come on this site and make judgements about our relationship and our state of conciousness.

These people are public figures because they chose to be public figures. They weren't thrust into the limelight by accident. They chose to be in the public eye and reap all the rewards that come with it. In so doing, they also relinquished a certain amount of their right to privacy.

If Lazaris (and C:S) didn't repeatedly and constantly speak of Peny as a "shining light", her death would not have been an issue. If Peny hadn't used her status to offer health advice to people, the state of her health would not be an issue. Didn't people have a right to know that Jim Fixx died of a heart attack (at age 42, I think) while advocating running as an especially healthy activity? No, it doesn't prove that running is not healthy, but it is an important piece of the puzzle.

There is a history on this board of Lazaris supporters manipulating the conversation into one about how their opinions are not welcomed on this board.

That is not true, and never has been true since day one. The accusations have been made with some success at getting others to believe it to be so, but it is not so, the history is here for anyone who chooses to do the research to ascertain the actual facts.

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Bullshit. These details are important to me. If you don't wish examination to occur at this level in your forum, say so in the introductory pages.

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You are welcomed and encouraged to dig up and post every detail you can find. That is what this site is about. Details are details, facts are facts, and opinions are opinions. I'm sure you know, as one with a long history of moderating message boards that there is a difference.

There are a lot of things that I personally don't wish to occur on this message board which occur anyway, because it is not moderated in the sense of anyone assuming authority over what or what cannot be posted here beyond the limited rules that have been published.

In the course of human discourse, people will disagree, and I reserve the right to disagree or argue just as much as anyone else here. That I do that has nothing whatsoever to do with any rules of posting. My opinion carries no more weight than anyone else's except in regard to Ted's and my legal responsibilities or decisions about providing free advertisments.

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I linked here from an e-mail that offered the chance to learn about and examine new information. The information I've seen so far is open to interpretation--many interpretations. If you are intolerant of alternate interpretations, don't encourage people publicly to delurk. You might get people like me who are eager to think this through carefully and in detail.

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My tolerance or lack of it has nothing to do with anything. I assume that people who post here are capable of holding their own should a debate occur or argument arise.

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Mickey posed questions and added his interpretations.

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I don't agree that they are interpretations, they are facts as stated. We can play mental gymnastics, you are welcomed to do so if you choose, and we can object to doing so as well.

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I'll respond to Craig's detailed Q&A (thanks, Craig) when I have more time, probably Sunday night. To people not caught up in the emotional momentum of this site, (myself and a couple of friends reading over my shoulder), there is definitely room for non-damning interpretation of the discrepancies revealed here.

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Yes,and there is also room to discuss the reasons that someone might want to do that, and how and why some of us find that inclination to be reflective of a desire to find justification and rationalization for the unjustifiable and irrational.

Each of us has our own boundaries, and our own standards for evaluating information. You will find that many of us may have different standards than you and your friends reading over your shoulder. That doesn't in any way mean that you are not free to post and express your thoughts. It also doesn't mean that no one will contest your thinking, or engage you in a discussion of ethics, integrity, honesty, or truth. You are free to respond.

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Let me emphasize that I'm grateful for you, Ted, Coward, Craig, and everyone else who has worked hard to provide information.

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Thank you, and the gratitude is returned. I appreciate all posts that are reflective of thought about Con:Sin or the Lazaris materials. I like clever humor and the creative use of smilies and animations too.

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Again, bullshit. I am scrutinizing the details more than you and Mickey put together, especially when I tell Mickey not to provide answers when he encourages people to think for themselves! Sheesh, that should be obvious.

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What is obvious to me is the truth and that there is such a thing. I've gotten into debates with people over whether or not the sun rises in the east on new age message boards. That isn't the way I personally prefer to spend my time, but I don't mind publicly noting how ridiculous some arguments become, or how desperate when someone is particularly attached to holding on to a perspective regardless of the evidence against it.

quote:

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I don't know where the truth lies here, but I'm damn well going to decide for myself without letting Mickey feed me the answers.

---

Mickey was simply stating the obvious.

quote:

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I was invited here to look at information, and that's what I'm doing, stripped as much as possible of conclusions reached by others.

---

I am all for that. I'm not an advocate of stretching a fact as though it's a piece of silly putty, but you are free to do so if you wish.

quote:

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Statements like this make me think you really don't want examination and discussion at this site. You want agreement.

---

I think the presence of this site more than amply proves my interest in examination and discussion.

I could however, say the same about your tactic of using my disagreement, or expression of my opinion as evidence that I need to be agreed with.

For the record, I don't care who agrees with me and who doesn't, although, I will admit, that like most people, I find agreement to be gratifying. I also see that for the trap that it is, because agreement does not determine the truth. The truth cannot be ascertained by taking a poll.

quote:

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"Plain as the nose on anyone's face"? How coercive is THAT? At this point I'd discourage lurkers from posting in here unless they want to join the psychological momentum.

---

Hmmmm..how coercive is that? Back at ya Brad.

quote:

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Would somebody please tell me why it was your business what was wrong with her, or anybody's business? I don't think you have any idea what it's like to be a public figure.

---

It was and is our business, because of the claims made about Peny and the fact that she set herself up as not only a spiritual authority, but an authority on health, wellness and longevity as well. Why do you think Con:Sin hid Peny's illness? Why not just put Peny in the Crystal Cave as other followers are rountinely encouraged to do when they or someone they are concerned about is sick? You don't see a problem here?

quote:

---

OF COURSE Jach didn't talk about a family illness in a public forum. I have made up stuff myself when somebody asks questions that are inappropriately personal.

---

More power to you Brad. Personally I try to avoid dishonesty at all costs, but again, we all have our own boundaries. Peny encouraged and was privy to the most personal and private information on many many followers. People put faith and trust in her ability to assist with healings. The fact that Peny was ill for months and not able to heal herself is of incredible significance.

It might be tough being a public figure, but the job pays well, and people know damned well what they are getting themselves into when they choose that path. Peny wanted all the perks and none of the discomforts. Fine for her, not fine for people who believed that they were intimates with her, as we were all encouraged to believe.

Peny wasn't a movie star whose private life, process, thoughts, or actions had nothing to do with me, and no relevance to my existance. She involved herself in my personal life, issued advice and counsel on the most significant issue that I have ever faced. Others have done the same. Intimacy is a two way street the last time I looked.

Peny was no generic "public figure" she was a spiritual leader by choice and design. As such she took on responsibilities. She and Jach had every ethical, moral, and social responsibility to respond honestly when asked how Peny was doing. Don't forget, both Lazaris and Peny we are told never lie.

quote:

---

Your attitude reminds me of some of my book readers, who think they are entitled to one-on-one e-mail help for their computer problems because they bought one of my books. What they get from me is a polite form letter, and maybe that's essentially how Jach handled the extremely difficult circumstance of strangers wanting to know about his home life.

---

Book readers, strangers??? Excuse me???

No Brad, that is hardly a fair or accurate equation. Not even close.

If, as you say, details are important to you, I think you need to provide yourself with more of them.

Katie

[

For some reason, the entire text of Brad's message didn't appear, so I am not going to bother quoting it, but will refer to it.

Brad, when you say that you are less certain than anyone here, I can sympathize. I don't think you are being hostile, either. What I find is that you are seeking to pull back as far as possible so you can really discern what is up.

What I think is especially unique about your situation is that you actually have good things to genuinely report about dealing with Concept:Synergy. That must really hang you up when you see how firm most of us, myself included, feel that those people are first class schmucks and low class heirophants. That is my observation of your posts: what we are saying here doesn't jive with your own tangible experience.

Your story really hangs me up, actually, because of the fact that you *didn't* work with the Lazaris material. It seems to me you have absolutely nothing to gain from defending these people, yet you can say good things aobut them. You are rare, let me tell you!

Further, I can sympathize because I also, for a very long time, could just not reconcile that Jack was entirely faking it. I still can't. But, I am willing to go on the theory that his intent is at the heart of it all, and I believe his intent was to deceive, at least initially, and since the deaths, it seems very sneaky now, too. There is so much damning evidence to support that. I have written in here before that I believe the information is too amazing AT TIMES to be fabricated. But when you mix it up with other information L gives that turns out to be complete horse fodder and then see the way that Lazaris, if he didn't lie outright, created a very intricate little dance around the exact truth of Penny's death, it seems to me that Jack's legitimacy is insupportable.

But, I also think you are right: it is immensely hard to actually prove any of this outright.

As to Penny while she was alive, there were so many references Lazaris made to her as being very giving, thoughtful, loving, spiritual, and many other things. But DAILY we saw a very different woman who was angry, vituprative, bullying, sneaky, viscious, and who presented a facade to people behind whose backs she was mincing them to pieces.

She was also very greedy and intolerant. We can document that. I understand that emotions are not provable in a court of law, but it is my conviction that her actions do condemn her and that this is not just a matter of what I interpret her actions to be based upon what I think she was feeling.

I know first hand that she lied, inappropriately used information to which she had access by virtue of the forum, and that she browbeat people who questioned her behavior, going very far to punish those people either publically or privately or both.

I am glad you are posting. It was very curious to me to find that there actually is a person who can claim no grievance against these people. I will be interested to read what your final conclusion is, if you can actually come to one. I honestly think that it is hard to do for many of us because it means questioning every piece of our lives. I have been doing that since last May when I was told and then given proof of a particular betrayal by Penny. Sometimes it is terrifying, others it is enraging, and many times it is immensely liberating.

That you have not relied upon Lazaris for your manna, I think, makes your processing all this very worth hearing about.

Katie to Brad [[It was and is our business, because of the claims made about Peny and the fact that she set herself up as not only a spiritual authority, but an authority on health, wellness and longevity as well. Why do you think Con:Sin hid Peny's illness? Why not just put Peny in the Crystal Cave as other followers are rountinely encouraged to do when they or someone they are concerned about is sick? You don't see a problem here?]]]

This is so much at the heart of it: the immense double standard for Penny and the rest of the world.

Brad, you have said you haven't much experience with the Forum, but that is so much where the CS universe really broke apart and the real Penny was made apparent to many.

I agree with Ted and Katie that it was entirely Penny's choice to be a public figure and so it is not our problem that she and Jack had to hide their actual private details from people.

What you saw in dealing with them is very different than what we saw as PAYING CUSTOMERS. They very much went out of their way to paint a picture about their very lives and how phenomenal their lives were. Penny came on the Forum regularly and talked about their private lives. We know far more about their sex lives than we did about her illness, for example.

And while I understand where you are coming from on this one, the part which goads me, and many others I believe, is the way Penny insisted we all do things one way, but didn't hold the standard to herself. When we didn't do things the way she thought we should, she went out of her way to shame us for it.

Her guidelines? The tapes we were supposed to be buying, the seminars we were supposed to be attending. But, she was clearly exempt and Lazaris however obliquely or directly, referred to Penny as beyond what the rest of us had to do, while all the time we witnessed her amazing acts of very unspiritual behavior.

Anyway, I go back to supporting you in your hoping to methodically outline the facts, but most of us are dealing with facts around Penny which you apparently never witnessed...Lucky You!!!

Pippa

[This message has been edited by Pippa John (edited 10-26-2001).]

You wrote:

quote:

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Say do you still have the cool Chaldean Numerology tool that you showed at the C:S Forum? That was a clever piece of work.

---

Thanks. It's here: http://www.cosmicfool.com/archtype.html

You wrote:

quote:

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I am perhaps not as sure as you are that he is making stuff up,but I have thought of it, I admit.

---

When I say making it up, I don't mean necessarily literally making it up, although I think he does that sometimes too. What I mean is I think he and/or his staff research the material, as opposed to having a non-physical entity channel through him. Some of it may be the result of deep introspection on Jach's part. I know his behaviour doesn't reflect introspection, but I do think people are capable of developing very wise ideas while not living in accordance with them. And some may be inspired, in the sense of "aha" thoughts that come out of the blue. One can argue that inspiration is channeling, but it is not "objective, full-trance" channeling of a specific being named "Lazaris", as JachZaris claims.

The claim that Jach is an objective, full-trance channel created a big problem for the argument that Jach isn't a pure channel, that we hear Lazaris mixed in with Jach, that Jach is sometimes channeling and sometimes not. If Lazaris had said that Jach tries to stay out of the way, but doesn't always succeed, that his conciousness sometimes interferes with the transmission, then most of us wouldn't have put so much trust in them.

That claim is absolute and therefore is a lie if Jach ever interferes. Yes, it's a high standard, but it's a standard set by JachZaris himself. So any descrepancy indicates dishonesty. I didn't set that standard, they did. IMO, they have not come close to living up to it. ("They" meaning Jach and/or Lazaris)

Yes, I am very convinced. Channeling is not a phenomenom that is generally recognized as real. The burden of proof is on those who claim it is real. Just as, when the "consensus" belief was that the Earth was flat, nobody felt a need to prove it. Those who claimed it was not flat bore the burdon of proving otherwise. They did. Perhaps someday someone will do the same for channeling. At which point, I'll eat a little bit of crow. When someone proves not only that channeling is real, but that Jach really is channeling Lazaris, I'll eat a lot of crow. Meanwhile, I won't save my appetite for the crow feast. (I'll have it marinated in a curry yogurt sauce, with a nice Chardonnay)

quote:

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We know far more about their sex lives than we did aobut her illness, for example.

---

Funny you should say that, because I was just thinking that I could understand Brad's thinking about Jach and Peny's privacy issues if we were here discussing things like that. Somehow I missed Peny discussing her sex life in the Forum, but please, please, I implore you DO NOT share!!! Somethings really are best left to privacy.

But, this is a really glaring example of how those who interacted with Peny as followers of Lazaris were encouraged to feel a sense of intimacy and closeness. People routinely talk about the Forum being a spiritual family, and I have never once heard of anyone, not Jach, Peny, or any of the Gangstas disagree. Can you imagine someone telling you that you had no right to know that a family member was ill, or the details of what caused their death? I don't know about anyone else, but if I had known that Peny was ill, and then heard of her death I would never have even thought to pursue the details. It was the secrecy, denial, covering up, and then the control over discussion that inspired me to find out what the hell was going on.

There was smoke, I wanted to know what was burning on the fire. This has nothing to do with Jach's right to privacy, although it may just have a lot to do with the rights and privacy of the people who trust him.

Katie

[[[[But, this is a really glaring example of how those who interacted with Peny as followers of Lazaris were encouraged to feel a sense of intimacy and closeness. People routinely talk about the Forum being a spiritual family, and I have never once heard of anyone, not Jach, Peny, or any of the Gangstas disagree. Can you imagine someone telling you that you had no right to know that a family member was ill, or the details of what caused their death? I don't know about anyone else, but if I had known that Peny was ill, and then heard of her death I would never have even thought to pursue the details. It was the secrecy, denial, covering up, and then the control over discussion that inspired me to find out what the hell was going on. ]]]]

Yes. It is so shaming the way they act and the way they treat everyone. The spiritual family tag line was really shaming in particular. I heard Lazaris say personally once that the people in the Forum might be difficult to handle but they were, and I do quote, "real."

While on the surface, a person might not see any issue with that, but what they wasn't just real: they were "real shaming" with the way they sucked people into the Est-like processing of other's behavior, while then demanding no one do it of them. Sometimes, I agreed with the premises being defended and I enjoyed the debates which I think stretched my brain, and I have to say those threads existed. But, as I wrote in the Lite Forum, you had better be on the right side of the discussion...or else find yourself the subject of the Ring of Fire with indigo moonlight shining on your ass as it got whipped.

I think your reaction to go seek underneath the hood of this well-oiled machine was the most natural one. I consider it like seeking therapy to help find answers to one's unrest, heal the wounds, find peace and move on. But, you can't make peace and move on if you never know what the hell hit you in the first place.

Pippa

I agree with most of your post to Dagas.

Right now, I have a hung jury on the issue of channelling. If I were forced to pick sides, I would say that I don't believe that channelling is what it is presented to be. I would, instead, view it as some type of psychic or mystical phenomena whereby people are picking up universal truths and psychic information. They then use the myth of the channeled entity as a convenient communication vehicle to express their ideas. I would hazard to guess that in many instances, the "channel" has no conscious idea of how this process is really playing out.

Of course, the above describes the best case where there is no outright fraud involved.

It is clear that in the case of Lazaris, there was a whole lot of behind the scenes research going on. Besides Peny, Michaell and Jach who I know did research, I must wonder whether others on the staff also did research. This whole concept of doing research does not mesh with the concept of having an all-knowing always available (to PM&J) entity. I wonder how much research and refining of the Lazaris personality was happing from the alleged first appearance of Lazaris in 74 until his public debut in the late 70s/early 80s.

Cheers, Craig

You wrote:

quote:

---

I would, instead, view it as some type of psychic or mystical phenomena whereby people are picking up universal truths and psychic information.

---

Well then, we don't disagree at all. I am quite convinced that inspiration is real. I believe I have experienced it quite often myself, in musical and philosophical endeavors and even when working on a computer program. Many great artists have said the same thing, such as a book or musical composition "writes itself", or that a writer "listens" to the writing. Thomas Edison said that "ideas float through the air". If he didn't grab the idea, someone else would have. He showed much more humility than Jach, who claims to be the sole conduit of this wisdom.

And Jach may have done that at times. But that's a far cry from being from the claims that Jach makes about being "totally out of the way when 'Lazaris' comes through".

quote:

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You proceed from here to suggest questions AND PROVIDE ANSWERS. This is manipulative, don't you think? It makes it seem as if you don't really want lurkers to question things for themselves, but are mostly interested in enforcing your own conclusions.

---

I didn't provide answers. I provided the truth. How is providing the truth being manipulative? How did I enforce my own conclusions? I didn't just make up some conclusions and expect everyone to go along with them. I based my answers on what Lazaris said on the "Healing the Broken Alliance" tape. (Please refer to Craig's excellent post on what Lazaris said about Peny's death) She died a horrible, painful death and was very ill and overmedicated.

Lazaris said she left her body and decided not to return. Then he tells us that Peny did not tarry with her choices and decisions. Her actions were swift and decisive.

quote:

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Dr. Sara Irrgang concluded her studies in this case and found the causes of death to be; "Respiratory depression", "Multiple drug overdose" and "Toxic levels of codeine and salicylates." She also found the victim to be suffering from organic diseases such as; "Infected stasis dermatitis," "Morbid obesity" and "Arteriosclerotic cardiovascular disease." Dr. Irrgang ruled the manner of death as an "Accident".
[[[

---

The above quote is how she died. If her death was an accident as a result of the drugs and alcohol then she did not die the way Lazaris said on the tape. That is the truth, not my conclusion. Lazaris said many times that they would never lie - which now I guess is another lie.

Jach sent out an e-mail to us (members of the forum) about Michaell's suicide (I saved the e-mail) and he said that Michaell said his final physical good-byes to Peny in the early morning hours of that day. That's strange because it says in the Orange Co. Sheriff's report that Michaell told them Peny was fine when he went to sleep and when he woke up to give her the medication she wasn't breathing. How could he have said his final good-byes to her if she died unexpectedly? So did Jach lie to all of us when he sent out that e-mail about Michaell's suicide? Sounds like it.
Also if Michaell said his final good-byes then there must have been a reason - like he knew she was dying. That is not what Lazaris said.

As far as C/S covering up the truth - yes they are. They sure didn't want us to know Peny was ill and how she died.
We had a right to know if she was ill and died of an overdose due to the pain she was in.
We were taught by Lazaris that we could end the pain (Ending the Pain - tape #460)
and that we could heal any malady with the tape Longevity: The Healing Tecnique.
Jach made the money from these tapes. I also heard on the tapes that Lazaris would do a Sat. night healing at the week-end workshops and that people were being healed. We had a right to know if the greatest mapmaker of all times couldn't heal herself.

If Peny was sick (and she was) then it contradicted what Lazaris said about us being able to heal ourselves. Oh, I know exactly why they wouldn't tell us she was ill. People would begin asking questions about the material Lazaris and C/S was putting out.

quote:

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Are people getting thrown out of the forum for asking Jach to take responsibility and answer some questions about the truth. Yes

---

We found out Jach lied and so did Lazaris (as I pointed out earlier) and since Jach was also a Spiritual teacher giving advice during on-line conferences and in the Jach and Lazaris room then we had a right to confront him about his behavior.

Not one time did I say that Jach had to give everyone all the specific details about Peny's death but we had a right to know about her being in pain and being ill as I stated before.

These are still the FACTS and not just my conclusions. You might want to consider reading more about the facts that have been posted in here before you reply from now on.

Every question I asked can be backed up with the evidence that it was the truth.
You don't want to see it. Neither did I when I found out about all this two weeks ago.
I decided to weigh all the evidence and be willing to see the truth - as hard as it was.

Sincerely,

Mickey (By the way I am a she, not a he as you said in one of your posts)

I was reading another of your posts and I came across this:

quote:

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I don't believe I've made a single statement in defense of the Lazaris material. I don't know it well enough to do so.

---

If you had known the Lazaris material and lived it you would know exactly why we have a right to confront Jach about the lies.

Why don't you get the tapes I mentioned in my other post, "Ending the Pain", "Longevity: The Healing Tecnique" and the one called, "The Crystal Cave" and listen to them. They will help you decide what the truth is in all of this.

If you don't know the material how can you make a decision as to what the truth is? The discussion is based on what Lazaris is saying on these and other tapes.

Sincerely,

Mickey

I hope you don't mind me mentioning that you and I have spoken over the phone.

I bring this up, because there is a point I would like to make to Brad. That is that over this past year I have gotten to know some of our posters here. Other than Ted, Audrey and Marilyn, and one other poster who we met briefly a long time ago, I didn't know any of you prior to putting up this site.

We built it, and you came. We had no idea whether you would or not. There is no coercion going on here, nothing is offered in the way of perks or benefits for anyone posting here. In my mind, this site is a miracle beyond any reported by any practitioner of the Lazaris materials.

When I have the opportunity to "meet" people like you, some who I knew only though the Forum posts, or not at all, and I see that we are reaching the same conclusions, having the same reactions, sharing the same perspectives and reactions, it often gives me goosebumps and brings tears to my eyes.

I hope Jade doesn't mind me mentioning that I was witness to her thrashing in the Forum, it happened while I was still a firm and true believer, and the whole event served to
teach me how to be a good follower, how to judge others for fun and prophet, and how to dismiss and assasinate people for little or no reason other than that Peny said we should, and Jach and Lazaris stood firmly and staunchly behind Peny.

Jade was one of the earliest posters who found our site. She e-mailed me prior to writing, and I will never forget the exchange. It was moving to say the least.

Because Jade had been character assassinated in the Forum, I had a mental image of her as a very young, very childish spiritual lightweight in negative ego. This is how she was portrayed.

When I got her e-mail, the whole scene flooded back to me. In all honesty, I still wasn't completely over my cult indoctrination. Although I took her mail at face value, somewhere inside me there was still the prickling belief that I was communicating with someone who might possibly be a loose cannon, spiritual light weight, or whining baby. God help me, and forgive me. Fuck me, Peny, the Forum, and every cult on earth, I was in the presence of one of the most beautiful, wise, sincere, enlightened, loving and mature beings I have ever met. So much for Peny's insights and Lazaris' wisdom.

Mickey, you and I never met, but we do have recollections of each others posts in the Forum.

Now that we have met, I would like to state that I feel that I have met yet another amazing, wise, compassionate, committed, soulful, sincere, spiritual being, one of the quiet and gentle group who only sought the truth, wisdom, love and support that was promised by Jach in his guise of Lazaris. Jach, in his obsession with Peny, Jach, in his insatiable greed and disdain for you, me, and all of us.

You have said a few words to me in private that have brought tears to my eyes, and provided me with inspiration, wisdom and insight. There is so so much more to you than anything that was ever permitted to manifest in the Forum.

As you said, you know this material, you lived it, trusted it, invested in it. You gave far, far more than was ever returned to you.

Brad does not have the benefit of the perspective that I have. He is not privy to the private communications, the years of intense and sometimes intimate communications in the Forum, the endless frustration and shame involved in trying to achieve the promised and guaranteed successes of the cut and pasted Lazaris materials.

Maybe it's hard for him to understand the bonds that we share, the sadness, hurt, and confusion of the betrayal we have come to recognize, or the joy and celebration we feel in finding each other. Maybe he can't fathom the miracle of the instant sense of
knowingness some of us have felt once we heard that one word, or read that one sentence that finally sent us too far over an edge upon which most of us had stood in denial, fear, justification, rationalization, and SHAME for some time.

Our experience is recounted on scores of internet websites, sites about other cults, some of them worse, some not so bad, but all of them manipulators and users of sincere seeking beings.

Our experience is recounted here, through the voices of so many others like you, sincere, honest, loyal and heartfelt followers.

Brad, I don't mean to speak of you in the third person, I hope you understand that I am posting these words in response to your cynicism about our cynicism.

Maybe what I'm trying to suggest is that if you are sincerely interested in the Truth, and not just here on some agenda to defend or seek the renewed approval of a wealth and influential old pal, get into the heart of this message board, and ask yourself how it came to be.

Ted and I have been characterized by
Con:Sin as two bitter people whose bad marriage has caused us to be angry and vengeful. All of us posting here have been explained away by Con:Sin as being jealous, envious and in a rage.

Is that true? Is that why you perceive we are here? Is there anything that indicates any truth in this authoritarian assertion about us?

Can you suspend your jolly happy pizza sharing days with Jach et. al, and grant that there is something a bit more profound than just some silly whimsy, or misdirected envy and rage at the bottom of this site?

As a metaphysician, can you find it in your heart to believe that there is nothing more than negative emotion and blind foolishness fueling this site?

Maybe the details aren't the issue here, maybe the momentum, and the hearts, minds and souls that fuel it are.

Katie

You wrote:

"You proceed from here to suggest questions AND PROVIDE ANSWERS. This is
manipulative, don't you think? It makes it seem as if you don't really want lurkers to question things for themselves, but are mostly interested in enforcing your own conclusions."

For what it's worth, I too have found an increasingly confrontative tone slipping into your posts here; assigning an ugly motivation to Mickey's post and suggesting that she's attempting to dominate others through enforcing her conclusions seems heavy handed and unfair to me--and since that attitude was not one you struck in your earlier posts, it feels like it's coming out of left field.

That said, I'd like to clarify some comments you've made that have been nudging me (I'm going to try and do this as cleanly as possible, but if I offend you, my apologies in advance.)

You seem to be assuming a stance of being more disinterested than most posting here concerning your interpretation of the information related to Con Sin & Lazaris (the statement "to people not caught up in the emotional momentum of this site" appears to point that way) and I'm wondering if there are things that might be affecting your own emotional perspective when it comes to objectively viewing the discussions here.

You've said that your involvement with Lazaris has been limited to the
following:

1) A private phone consultation, part of which impressed you positively.

2) Membership in the Forum, in which you regularly lurk.

3) Attendance as a guest at four weekend seminars.

4) Ownership of one book (but no tapes.)

5) Regular examination of circulars released by Con Sin describing Lazaris events.

6) Co-moderating of the Lazaris section in the Compuserve Forum.

Given the above, I'm puzzled as to why you say you're not familiar with the material; if you spent close to eighty hours listening to Lazaris over four weekend seminars (roughly two eight hour days, one three hour evening per weekend)I'm unclear as to how you avoided being exposed to the material (did you skip out, tune out or mentally go somewhere else?:)

Did none of the private consultation that impressed you touch on Lazaris' perception of reality and how you were operating in that reality? (In other words, whatever the information was, did Lazaris not use the language/concepts he's been using for thirty years to convey that information?)

Has lurking regularly in the forum not brought you in contact with discussions of the material?

Did the book not do the same? Or even scanning circulars released by Con
Sin?

I don't mean to be condescending (as in claiming to know more about the contents of your brain than you do) but is it possible that through osmosis alone, you're more familiar with the material than you realize?
And since the fact of Lazaris has been part of your landscape for so long, is it possible that this familiarity has slipped under your radar regarding objectivity?

(And perhaps being impressed with parts of the phone consultation have made their mark on you as well as to how you approach the topic of Jach/Lazaris--if I'd received information that had impressed me, I'd be hard put to set that completely aside when evaluating the validity of the entity/channeler involved.)

As well, since you had a "genuinely affectionate friendship" with Jach, hung out at Peny, Michaell and Jach's house, credit Michaell with helping you through a health crisis and were also engaged in a business relationship with them, I'm wondering how you're separating your once close association with them from a mindset open to objectively sifting through negative information here about their channeled entity, business practices, deaths, etc.

I have no interest in offending or lecturing you, Brad, but given your personal, business and metaphysical exposure to Jach, Peny, Michaell and Lazaris I'm feeling uncomfortable with comments from you indicating that you're somehow less invested in a particular outcome than others here.

We all bring our own baggage to this discussion (that can't be avoided) and hopefully you haven't found my questions too intrusive as to nature of whatever baggage you may be carrying--you're certainly free to dismiss my comments (and without any ill will on my part, let me add.)

flo

flo, enumerating Brad's involvement with Lazaris:

[[[1) A private phone consultation, part of which impressed you positively.

2) Membership in the Forum, in which you regularly lurk.

3) Attendance as a guest at four weekend seminars.

4) Ownership of one book (but no tapes.)

5) Regular examination of circulars released by Con Sin describing Lazaris events.

6) Co-moderating of the Lazaris section in the Compuserve Forum.

Given the above, I'm puzzled as to why you say you're not familiar with the material; if you spent close to eighty hours listening to Lazaris over four weekend seminars (roughly two eight hour days, one three hour evening per weekend)I'm unclear as to how you avoided being exposed to the material (did you skip out, tune out or mentally go somewhere else? ]]]]

With the exception of the Forum exposure, if I had had only this amount of exposure to the CS material and Lazaris, I think I would have a hard time coming to the conclusions most of the rest of us in here have come to. Mix in that the fact that Brad says he has had genuinely good rapport with these people and I think it would be easy to wonder what was making everyone here so adamant that there is deception at play.

The reason I say this is because on the surface, the material is really great. To read the Sacred Journey book and know nothing else about the double standard for The Bitch and her homies, I can't think that I would be offended either. Nor would I be if I had attended seminars and not ever seen the monkey business I did see first hand with the CS Gang.

I think when you take just what Lazaris says without all the hypocrisy behind the scenes, it is extremely groovy. And while you are right to point out that Brad was a moderator of the Compuserve chat room for Lazaris, I can very easily see how Brad concluded, as he has stated, that there was a sort of group processing element which was part of the Lazaris material. Jade set him straight on that, but I can see how otherwise, he might have concluded that since there most likely wasn't any refutation of that sort of crap by Lazaris himself. Indeed, Lazaris was saying how "real" it all was, which was true, it was real, but it was also very shaming and hostile and uneven because Penny wanted it that way.

[[[[Did none of the private consultation that impressed you touch on Lazaris' perception of reality and how you were operating in that reality? (In other words, whatever the information was, did Lazaris not use the language/concepts he's been using for thirty years to convey that information?)]]]]

Without hesitation, I can say that I know people who have been working with the Lazaris material for decades and who strike me as never having worked with any of it.

Brad, maybe you were only investigating because it was being offered to you and because you felt friendly towards them. In that scenario, I can see how one might not think one has all the "structure down" to think one can say the material makes sense or has great value to one.

[[[[Has lurking regularly in the forum not brought you in contact with discussions of the material?]]]]

That would be where I would wonder what, Brad, did you believe you were witnessing? When you say you lurk, do you read over each thread? Many threads are pretty benign. For example, it was pretty much only certain topics where the fights would occur, such as the political threads and a few others.

And, from my perspective, the fights themselves weren't the problem. I often thought there were some real jerks, non-CS, who would spew their own hostility in there. There were also often times people who would proclaim to know things that they clearly had no idea about. That was very irritating.

What was dead wrong was the double standard for the Gang as opposed to everyone
else.

[[[[I don't mean to be condescending (as in claiming to know more about the contents of your brain than you do) but is it possible that through osmosis alone, you're more familiar with the material than you realize?
And since the fact of Lazaris has been part of your landscape for so long, is it possible that this familiarity has slipped under your radar regarding objectivity?]]]]

flo, I think it is fair to say that any of us might be prone, not HAS TO, mind you, but MIGHT BE PRONE, to needing to very consciously scour ourselves for some objectivity given how heartbreaking it has been for many of us to confront that we have been decieved at the spiritual level and that we have had our magic carpets yanked from us. For me, trying to stay in the light and not get sucked into the fog of "well, maybe it can be explained this way...or, this way..." is damned hard.

What is my touchstone is that I very much believe that Penny was a pig of a person (not her weight, her attitude) who lied and abused, thus negating Lazaris' claims that she was some pillar of spirituality; and that Jack is a liar as well. This much I feel I can comfortably claim.

The Lazaris material...it really is very amazing in my mind, so often. But, as Ted and Craig have already discussed, and I have as well, there is the very distinct possiblity that the spiritual information from Lazaris is real but that the channel is not the Great White Way we have been very scrupulously lead to believe.

That Brad was not being made into a follower, which is another way to say "a regular paying customer", and actually had experiences with them which demonstrated their kindness, I think would make it hard for him or anyone else in his shoes to outright say that all the crap we know is crap isn't easily explained some other way. That might change for you Brad, but personally, if I were being told my former friends were schmucks and I had not experienced their schmuckness directed at me first hand, I might want to hold out longer than if it were about people I didn't know.

[[[[As well, since you had a "genuinely affectionate friendship" with Jach, hung out at Peny, Michaell and Jach's house, credit Michaell with helping you through a health crisis and were also engaged in a business relationship with them, I'm wondering how you're separating your once close association with them from a mindset open to objectively sifting through negative information here about their channeled entity, business practices, deaths, etc.]]]

What is interesting to me is that the notion that Penny and her boys were not all bad, that they could in fact be nice to people from whom they weren't expecting to take or get anything, makes this much more compelling and human. I was at one point over the summer beginning to think that I was making the three of them out to be so bad that they were becoming one-dimensional, and thus, not real. And that is when I started to doubt that I really had a case at all.

So, I started over again and discovered there were times when I can say Penny was kind and giving and thoughtful. There were times when I really learned from the Forum, where I saw genuine goodness and genuine love for one another and for the world. But in Penny's case, it was inconsistent and there was no escaping her despotism, which negated her authority, even though that was not a permitted thought for us to have.

And that is the fulcrum for me: Penny and the rest of them were presented as being very clearly more evolved and above us, and therefore ENTITLED to be mean to whomever they chose. There is nothing spiritual about that at all. And, consequently, if it were possible for Lazaris to be proven as true and not some confabulation of Jack's mind and his machine, I still could never trust Lazaris again because there has been this treachery perpetrated by Jack, Lazaris's "only" channel, and Penny, the one they "came to touch" who was "beyond the need for processing" as they have proven themselves by their own actions both to be very willing to act like scum.

That they might also have been people who have been glowing is also possible, but they built their little empire mostly upon acting like scum.

[[[[We all bring our own baggage to this discussion (that can't be avoided) and hopefully you haven't found my questions too intrusive as to nature of whatever baggage you may be carrying--you're certainly free to dismiss my comments (and without any ill will on my part, let me add.)]]]

I agree. It is a very convoluted exploration because it wipes clean what many of us held as true. I had to completely restructure my framework for viewing the world and I am not through, that is for sure. Add to that the fact that the world is very precarious now and many of us can no longer feel so confident (or smug for some) that the end of the world isn't coming, that the mapmakers aren't going to ride in and save the day...it can be terrifying.

Pippa

quote:

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I think when you take just what Lazaris says without all the hypocrisy behind the scenes, it is extremely groovy.

---

I don't know. Is it groovy? I'm finding that life without all the Lazaris inspired mind contortions trying to find the bottom line of which of the endless aspects of my consciousness, flawed belief, blockage, unhealed alliance, etc etc is the source of my problem of the moment to be quite peaceful.

Maybe it's worth it to revisit the topic of how some of us see the materials themselves as far worse than even Jach and Peny's behavior.

Hell, I believe that Peny never bothered to do the normal things other humans do to take care of herself because she sincerely believed that the Orb was going to pull her out of any messes she got herself into. On a certain level, don't all followers believe that? Isn't that what all these techniques are about?

Look at the way the Forumites are responding to the terrorist threat and the war we are fighting. Has one person yet made any suggestion to do anything tangible as a response? Did the Forum sponsor a collection to send to the WTC victims like probably every church, club, organization, and affinity group in the country did, or in anyway advocate anything beyond building a crystal grid to save the world?

These people actually believe that these techniques are going to make a difference, hell, not a difference, this gang of unemployed, unhealed, impotent sychophants actually believe they are going to save the world. This is where the focus is for them, not a focus of actually being prepared economically, mentally, physically, and emotionally for the potential threats and difficulties we face as a result of this war.
Lazaris will provide all that is necessary.
Crap! Smug crap! Deadening Crap!

I think that is dangerous behavior and thinking. Some of these people have children and others who depend on them. What do you do in times like these, when kids are scared and confused? Hand them a crystal and tell the Lazaris loves them?

Ted and I lived like that. We made major life decisions which had our belief in the Lazaris materials at their basis. Unlike a lot of followers, we have done ok for ourselves, well, great, awesome by the standards for success I've noted in the Forum, but we will never know what choices we would have made, or path we would have followed if we weren't operating from this belief system, one which we know without question is a false system.

Anyway, I'm going to start a thread on this topic so we can discuss it again. I think it's extremely important for us to put those materials under the same degree of scrutiny as we've learned to put our "child" "adolescent" "ego" "martyr" "victim" blah blah blah.

quote:

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And while you are right to point out that Brad was a moderator of the Compuserve chat room for Lazaris, I can very easily see how Brad concluded, as he has stated, that there was a sort of group processing element which was part of the Lazaris material. Jade set him straight on that, but I can see how otherwise, he might have concluded that since there most likely wasn't any refutation of that sort of crap by Lazaris himself.

---

No offense to Brad, but I wonder why he wasn't as interested in the details there as he is here.

As flo asks, is Brad anymore clear or objective in his search for the Truth than any of the rest of us?

Another topic I think that needs revisiting is that of mind control, and post hypnotic suggestion which was deliberately diverted before and never fully discussed. It's interesting how that topic drove some into near hysteria. It seems important to look at that again IMO.

quote:

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Indeed, Lazaris was saying how "real" it all was, which was true, it was real, but it was also very shaming and hostile and uneven because Penny wanted it that way.

---

Lazaris endorsed the Forum in the "messages from Lazaris" that are posted there.

If anyone hasn't been kicked out of the Forum yet, I would very much like to revisit the message in which Lazaris refers to the Forum as "a new way of communicating", "necessary feedback for Mapmakers" etc.

Whenever I had doubts about the goings on in the Forum I used to revisit that message to reinforce my belief that something really good was going on there. I took my queues from the Orb himself to doubt myself, abandon common sense, practice pit-bull soul judgements, rationalize, justify, support, and participate in the most soul deadening destructive behavior I've ever encountered.

I don't personally agree that the Lazaris materials themselves are all that groovy. They make us feel groovy, that I won't dispute, but they sure don't make us think groovy, and that is deliberate IMO.

Katie

I haven't much time right now, but I did just give a quick read to your post.

I have to keep thinking. You are right about Penny, though. I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't even know how to do the basic things like cook her own dinner or hang the toilet paper on the roll.

It would therefore not surprise me if one of the reasons she didn't get medical help is because she thought Lazaris was going to pull her through.

Groovy...yes, I think some of it really is. But, how much of it is and how much isn't ? That is why I know I can't fully trust it anymore. I wish I had your clarity to not want to rely on any of it at all.

There is a great heartache, however, which I have to say, occurred in my life directly as a result of following to the letter something I heard Lazris say. It goes beyond there "not being any guaruntees" as Lazaris himself would say. It was something I chose to do as a direct result of Lazaris proclaiming that this particular thing was superior to anything else.

So, I take your words to heart. I do wonder where I would be wihtout Lazaris, better or worse. Right now I think there are things which are better because I used the material, but that other things took longer for me to heal and integrate because, despite so much evidence to the contrary, I kept trying to make fit into the Lazarian picture.

The codependency and shame stuff, I particularly found lightened my life immeasurably, despite my never being able to understand how Penny could act the way she did...

So, for myself, I did find that "groovy." The dark law and martyrhood tapes, and the jealousy/envy/rage tapes I also really leaned on, I think with great success.

As to your comment that the world is being "saved" by a bunch of losers with crystals, I am wicha on dat. I don't think the crystal work is bad, or misguided in and of itself. I suspect it actually is having an effect. But, there is this kind of vapid abandonment of all other fronts which I noticed long before even the WTC tragedy.

I don't think Lazaris says to give up on life all the way around and to just sit and hum with the crystal in your hand, but I have to agree with you whole heartedly that it would seem that is what many are doing.

Well, I do need to get a move on, but thanks for your input.

Pippa

Thanks for sharing your story. I'm feeling very gratified to know that Jach is getting some heat right now. Without a doubt he's been questioned and confronted many many times over the years, but it was always a solo act. No one ever had the opportunity, or in some cases the courage to discuss their interactions with Jach with anyone else.

I'm glad we're able to do that now. It makes a huge difference to know that Jach is getting the same message from others, ignoring and punishing others in the same way for the same reason, simply asking a question, or stating our thoughts or doubts.

When we are aware that this behavior on Jach's part is business as usual, it diminishes the potential for the shaming that Jach has become so skillful and deliberate at dumping, and it reveals behavior that is clearly common in cult leaders, manipulators, and deceivers. It also provides some clues about Jach's true feelings about his fellow "Lazaris" followers. His behavior reeks with arrogance and contempt.

How cool that we get to share instead of shouldering the burden alone, as so many before of have had to do.

quote:

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So we submitted it and made sure it was posted in the forum and left for lunch.
We came back and tried to log on and she was not allowed into the J/L room.
We weren't surprised at all. So I asked her if I could put it in here and she thought it was a wonderful idea. She said that we were leaving the forum like rats off of a Stinking ship. The SSLazaris and we hope the Captain (Jach) goes down with it when it sinks.
She then came up with this little cheer:
Jach, Jach read my mail.
Jach, Jach go to hell!!

---

I think we can safely evaluate that Jach is already in a HELL of his own making, right exactly where he belongs.

Maybe we should start a mail campaign in which we each send Jach a pack of matches, just incase that fire isn't quite hot enough for him.

Naaah...it's more than he deserves.

Katie

quote:

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Sad fact is that none of us take kindly to being rudely awoken out of an illusion (think about how a friend might react to info about her cheating boyfriend), and some of the people still involved in that circle seem downright vicious. Spooky but true.

---

The cheating lover is a good analogy. As many of us have discovered, it can be very dangerous to be the bearer of that news. Some people appreciate it, but for the most part, it is met with anger, resentment, and will end a friendship in the blink of an eye.

Some people just don't want to know the Truth, they find it much more cozy to live a lie, even when in some cases, the lie is putting their family, security and sanity at great risk.

Nice to see you again!!

Katie

I'm pleased to see that you're reading the cult material. Of course you will have heard of cults like the Hare Krishnas. It's well known, I guess, that people sometimes make a commitment to a group like this, and vanish from their families and friends.

Now, there are a lot of smaller cults too. The view of many posters here is that Lazaris is one of them. That is the question you will have to answer for yourself. However, supposing it is true, I hope you can understand why people are so angry that this was done to them.

Do the right thing!
That's spirituality in a nut shell!

Doing the right thing even when it's not convenient is walking the walk.

If you are the top dog and repeatedly publicly proclaimed to be the most evolved top dog there ever was, a public figure, on a pedestal, and talk the talk but don't walk the walk,
you're a lying hypocrite.

There is no above the law in spirituality.
No one is exempt. Not even the topmost of dogs.
When you're the topmost dog with the biggest mouth and a lying hypocrite,
You are fair game.

Of course this is only my opinion.
IMO

Thank-you for what you wrote to Brad.

Katie I don't mind at all you saying we talked on the phone.

It must be incomprehensible to Brad and others like him who aren't familiar with the lazaris material to understand why we feel the way we do.

How could they know the despair we feel when we wake up and realize we have built our lives on a dream that isn't real.

The dream of having lazaris with us at all times (we were told how someone blended with lazaris before an automobile accident and because of that and her creating it she didn't have the accident) I relied on the fact that if I ever needed help and asked lazaris to blend that he would be there.

I relied on the love that lazaris promised - that he would be with me "forever and a day" and would be waiting for me when I died and continue to be with me for the rest of eternity. He said he would help us grow and evolve through the higher levels.

He said on the longevity tape that sometimes all we had to do was ask. When I found out my Mother (and my best friend) whom I had lived with for 12 years had terminal breast cancer that had spread to her bones I went home and wrote lazaris and asked him to heal her. A request was made into the "Crystal Cave" for her to be healed. When that didn't appear to be working I used the "Night Dream"
tecnique to find that place of healing for her almost everynight for a year. Oh God. Sometimes I would fall asleep before I reached the healing place and feel terrible.
I would try to channel the healing energy - after all lazaris said that any of us could on the "Healing: The Nature of Health" tapes. He even told us how to place our hands. Of course when it didn't work I'm trying to process what in me that wouldn't allow it to work.

At other times I'm using the manifestation tecniques to see her healed and going into the unconscious to the tunnel of light to get to the new future and change it. Each time waiting for that indicater (within 72 hrs.) God, sometimes I would think I got the indicater and get my hopes up and then NOTHING happened.

When her suffering became so bad (worse than I could ever imagine) a request was made into the crystal cave for people to send energy to help her leave. She died within a week although when the request was made they told us she was shutting down.

I kept on learning the lazaris material.
I listened to the tapes and I worked them.
After all it was my way back to God/Goddess/All That is and my way to create the abundance and happiness and joy until two weeks ago when I got the e-mail from "concerned friend".

It took tremendous courage to wake up to the facts and all of the lies. I feel betrayed by Concept:Synergy.

As hard as it is to face all of this (as some of you know because you went/are going through it) it will be worth it. At least I won't be living a lie.

Sincerely,

Mickey

[QUOTE]
For what it's worth, I too have found an increasingly confrontative tone slipping into your posts here; assigning an ugly motivation to Mickey's post and suggesting that she's attempting to dominate others through enforcing her conclusions seems heavy handed and unfair to me--and since that attitude was not one you struck in your earlier posts, it feels like it's coming out of left field. [QUOTE/]

It feels unfair and heavy handed to me also.
I answered those questions I put in my post honestly. It was the truth. Those are the questions I asked myself after I got the e-mail from "concerned friend". I started doing a lot of reading in the Cosmic Fool Website and looking at different pieces of this puzzle.

I wanted to believe that in spite of everything that lazaris was real.

Then I thought, "Maybe lazaris had a good reason for lying to us on the "Healing the Broken Alliance" tape. I knew then that it was over. The bottom line was that if lazaris was really who he claimed to be he would NEVER lie to us - not for any reason.

My world as I knew it for almost 14 years came to an abrupt end.

I am not (nor will I ever) trying to make someone believe something they don't want to. That is everyone's choice. My new path is finding the truth. When I do I will post it here for others to see. It is always everyone's choice as to whether they accept it. If they don't - fine. I hope that the truth will help someone else quit living the "Grand Promise" from lazaris and Concept:Synergy that has failed so many of us.

Sincerely,

Mickey

You wrote:

"With the exception of the Forum exposure, if I had had only this amount of exposure to the CS material and Lazaris, I think I would have a hard time coming to the conclusions most of the rest of us in here have come to.

I'm not sure if you're expanding the conversation here or addressing some point in my post, so let me clear this up: I was asking Brad how he had avoided having any familiarity with the Lazaris material (and whether or not there actually was a level of familiarity that might be subtly affecting his own sense of objectivity), not implying that forum membership, having a phone consultation, etc, would somehow lead him to the same in toto conclusions as most of us here.

You wrote:

"In that scenario, I can see how one might not think one has all the "structure down" to think one can say the material makes sense or has great value to one."

As do I--my question had to do with Brad's exposure to the material during his phone consultation (through hearing the same terminology and concepts Lazaris has used for years) and not whether Brad felt he had the structure down enough to comment on its level of sense or value.

(Of course, that's assuming Lazaris *did* use the same terminology--he might use an altogether different form of explanation when talking to people who aren't "friends".)

Brad, you've mentioned reading many other channeled books--did the Lazaris material you heard just fit into the same general category as your previous reading (i.e., heard this kind of information elsewhere in a format better suited to me, no need to pay much attention to it)or was there something else about it that didn't grab your attention?

flo

"Then I thought, "Maybe lazaris had a good reason for lying to us on the "Healing the Broken Alliance" tape. I knew then that it was over."

Good for you--there are far too many people who have buried their doubts about Lazaris so deeply that even asking themselves the question you asked yourself (never mind answering it) is impossible.

You wrote:

"I hope that the truth will help someone else quit living the "Grand Promise" from lazaris and Concept:Synergy that has failed so many of us."

Amen to that.

flo

You wrote:

"Of course when it didn't work I'm trying to process what in me that wouldn't allow it to work."

Mickey, how horrible for you (what turning to Lazaris and this material can do to people's sense of self is unconscionable--and often during the most difficult times of their life--it just sucks that you went through that, completely, totally sucks.)

flo