I am the author of the email that was sent out anonymously. Why anonymously? Because of the reactions you see hinted at below. I would not feel safe having done if I signed with my real name. I post these reactions here so that people can glimpse some of the thinking that goes on. I have removed all names and email addresses to protect those in the same spirit as I want to protect myself.

I do not plan to post again. Feel free to make comments, though.

Sincerely,
Coward

PS: Make sure you don't miss the last reaction...it is quite "colorful" (and also sent anonymously with an email name of "Fuck You".
======
I am wondering where you got my email address? Did you copy it from the
forum?? I think your message and links are an unsolicited abuse of private
information. I'd appreciate your removing me from any future messages!!
=====
Dear "Friend",

Do not send me crap like this ever again. Thank you.

Furthermore, since you are unwilling to identify yourself and identify your real intentions for circulating this kind of crap I most certainly never want to hear anything from you. EVER.

Since you have my name and or e-mail address on some sort of list, remove it immediately. NOW.

Thank you.
Sincerely,
=====
Please take me off your mailing list! What a cowardly thing to do. Your
anonymity speaks for itself.

Regards,
=====
Whoever you are you are a coward in that you do not have the "balls"' to
identify yourself. I am not interested in your information. I have no
idea how you got my email address but I warn you do not contact me
again.
=====
I don't know who you are, and you obviously don't have
the courage to state your name with this information.
Whether this information is true or not if you have
anything to do with the cosmic fool website you are
immediately suspect. Katie and Ted are sick people, much
sicker than Peny in my mind, and I don't want to be
involved in anything that has to do with them or the
website. Do not e-mail me

=====

Dear ??? Friend,

If you are truly a friend, why don't you tell me your name. That Cosmic
Fool site is hateful and full of lies. I don't know if you checked it out,
but many of the paraphrasing of Lazaris that they have used to support their
position is just not true. I have been with Lazaris for at least 14 years
and have about 98% of the tapes. In all my time with Lazaris, I have never
heard them say the things they accuse Lazaris of saying. So why should I
believe them now? My experience with this site is that it is full of
jealousy, envy, and rage. They have been ranting about Peny for a year now
and now they are ranting about Jach. What does that tell you? These people
cannot let go of their anger. It appears to me that the whole intention of
their site is to hurt. They have been loosing people from their site
because they have abused people on their site. They need new recruits and
guess what, they recruited you. Are you willing to shrink away from your
being a magician for these people? Are you going to abandon your
spirituality because these people have abandoned theirs? I would just like
to ask you this question. When you listen to Lazaris, do you doubt them?

Do you trust these angry hateful people more than someone who has given you
truths throughout the years? Many people have left that site because they
actually believed in Lazaris and got terribly abused by these people for
expressing their opinions. How do I know. because I visited that site to
see what was going on. The resonance on that site was so putrid, it made me
sick.

Please don't send me anymore info on this.
=====
Hi:

Which concerned friend got this email address? Thanks.
=====
PLEASE REFRIN FROM SENDING ME ANY OTHER INFO> I DO NOT APPRECIATE THE INTENT OF WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM> HEAL YOUR ENVY & GET A LIFE>
=====
Please Remove me from your mailing list...
=====
What a pathetic little cowardly weasle you are. Why don't you crawl back into your little hole and hide? Peny's death is of absolutely no import to you or to me. Never, ever communicate with me again.

You are like the terrorists - you strike from the shadows. You cover yourself with shame.
=====
Dear Concerned Friend,

I'm not sure who you are or how you got my e-mail. I have to wonder how
concerned you are in light of your unwillingness to sign your name.
======
Please remove me from your mailing list.

Thank you.
======
Take my email address off your mailing list immediately I have no desire
whatsoever to be part of your reality.
======
Please remove my email address from any list on which you have it. If I
receive another communication from this site, I will report it as email
abuse to Yahoo.
======
Please remove me from your distribution list.
======
To Whom It May Concern,

Please do not write to this address again. If you were what you purport yourself to be "a concerned friend," you would have used your name instead of sending a mass mailing. I don't know where you got our address, but I do not like that you invaded our privacy. Do not do it again or action will be taken on our part. We choose our destiny in this house, and will not have it chosen by others through fear and hatred, meaning your writing.

Finding the good in the world is a whole lot nicer than constantly looking for what scares you or of that which you don't understand!
=====
What I choose to believe and not believe is between me and my Higher Self. Do not write me again. Ever. Period.

I have visited your website several times at Cosmic Fool. I was curious at first. There was even a time when I started listening to you and your rantings. But then, it just got old. All the negativity fixated towards one group of people. All the anger, the judgments, the hostility. Sometimes the message is lost in all of this, making our ears bleed.

You think perhaps that I am deluding myself. My choice. You think perhaps that I have given my spirituality and soul to a bunch of liars and thieves. My choice. Not yours. And if my choice make you angry, indifferent or self-righteous. Your choice.

I came to the realization that you are a bunch of really mean and nasty people that truly need to get on with your lives. I think back on several things in my own past that I wished I hadn’t believed in. Things I see now that I had wasted my time on. Some things small, some quite large. I have moved on. Lesson learned. It wasn’t what I had hoped for or wished for. I moved on. I moved on.

I am amazed, truly amazed, that after EVERYTHING that has happened in the last few weeks, you are still obsessed with bringing these people down. It amazes me how you think it is okay, and your RIGHT to write me in this way and continue to spill your putrid garbage now closer in my direction. I of course need to look within and figure out why I created a reality where YOU are now so closely in it, “knocking” on my door so to speak - uninvited.

I know you have heard this many many times, and you choose not to 'listen." That is of course YOUR choice. And I, quite frankly, couldn't give a flying rip what you choose to do with your life, all of your anger and all this energy you devote to this "cause" of yours.

Just leave me out of it. I haven't asked for your advice nor do I want "saving" by you. Again, what I believe and I what I choose to believe is of no concern of yours. If that makes you angry, oh well. Confused? Oh well. Belligerent in your judgments? Oh well.

Cheers!
=====
"Concerned Friend"

I do not know where you got my email address from or who you are or what
kind of
organization this is, but I can tell you that your intentions are mean and
hostile and of an envious nature. I resent your
attempt to contact me, as if I need your "new information". You are sick.
How did you come to the conclusion that I need or want your "information" to
discern my spiritual path?

Do you think I am dumb or stupid? What makes you think that you are so much
better than me and so much more enlightened then me? I am furious! How did
you get my email address and how dare you contact me!

Do you really think and believe that I need to be awakened to your
"information"? You are ridiculous and arrogant!

Do you realize you are spending your "adult" time writing and sending me an
email about something that you want to make me aware of or warn me of? Are
you trying to save me from something??? What would that make you ... a
savior??? Well...go save yourself!

Your intentions are pathetic and mean, I do not believe for a second that
you know me or love me enough that you would spend time to truly inform me
or save me from something, unless you are pushing an agenda. You are not a
"concerned friend"! That is a lie! I do not know you!You want to solicit
people to go to your commercial website!

You don't even have the guts to sign your name. Spooky!

Whoever you are: I will find out and will take legal action against you for
using my email to
contact me in this manner!
===============
Hello

If you are so concerned, have the courage to sign your name to this
email. Your cowardice is not appreciated. Keep your hostility to
yourself.

Take me off of your email list!!!
=====
Please don't ever send your garbage to me again.
=====
hello, "concerned friend"... I would appreciate knowing who sent me this.
I am not angry or upset. Little of what was revealed was a surprise,
as we had already believed this to be the case. We do appreciate the
confirmation of what we had gotten psychically. It is sad for us.
[PERSONAL INFORMATION REMOVED] I mention this in regards to
Peny choosing to let go and move on. While it was true that she was in a great
deal of pain, I personally would not underestimate her spirituality, nor the
possibility of her choice.

I say this not to defend her. But to suggest a possibility that may be true, and I
even get IS true.

Obviously, it would have been such a blessing for us all if she had gotten herself
healthy and lost weight, and continued to heal herself in other ways also.

Re: Lazaris. I personally have had too many clear, true, direct, honest experiences
of their love and presence... their healing of me and those I care about, to throw
the baby out with the bath water... as the saying goes. Too many miracles and too
many changes have happened in me to say they were not so.

It is also part of the adult, to question, be curious, to explore... and to NOT be blind,
or dumbly blindly believing either. There are many valuable and valid sources of
spiritual, metaphysical, and / or wisdom in our world, to have Lazaris as my /our
only source. For many reasons, I do not recommend it to my clients, my friends,
my family. Those who live this way, do this for their own reasons.

I will not inform anyone as to who you are. I just do not like receiving an email
of this magnitude from someone who says they are my friend, and email at an
email address I rarely use anymore. If this is who I think it may be, I love you,
and DO appreciate your sending me this. Only I would like you to let me know it
is you. Please.

Much love,
========
I do not appreciate receiving this. If you have something to say then say
it, instead of this anonymous attack. Your e-mail was not sent with Love and
you do not have the courage to identify yourself, therefore I question where
you are coming from. I personally trust Lazaris implicitly, they have always
been a loving friend---I don't even know who you are. Do not contact me with
your views again.
========

Dont ever contact me again. I dont respond to no name signed letters &
reports. If you were a friend you would be sure to post your name. So, your
message is NOT with love, It is not from a friend of mine!
========
Dear "Concerned Friend"

No one from Cosmic Fool is a friend of Lazaris so I am assuming that you are not a friend of Lazaris either. The people connected with that site are interested only in trashing as far as I am concerned. Peny and Michaell have moved on and our world certainly needs our energies in far more important areas at this time.

I do not appreciate your lifting my e-mail address from the forum and e-mailing me in this manner. I know the love that I feel from and for Lazaris and nothing will change that. I hope those in charge of the forum locate and remove those such as yourself who are not honoring the forum agreement.

I conversed briefly with Katie and Ted individually a number of months ago.

I was appalled when Katie told me that I should listen to her rather than what my Higher Self was telling me. End of conversation.

I find it interesting that you don't use your real name. Where is the courage and integrity in hiding behind a fake one?
=====
I don't not know who you are, but you have violated my privacy by
sending this report to me. Cowards lurk in the shadows. So do
terrorists. I not only feel violated by you, I also feel you have put
out your own form of terrorism.

My opinions are based on my own personal knowledge, evaluations, and
research. No one else's negative ego is going to change anything of my
reality or of my own personal experience.

Do not ever send anything to me again.
======
Hello,

Please tell me who sent this email. I'm just really curious.
======
Please remove me from your mailing list.
======
I should think that a concerned friend would have had the courage to
sign his/her name to an email such as this.

No need to reply,
======
I do consider this SPAM. However you got my name to send this
communication, you have overstepped your boundaries. Take me off your
lists.
======
Do not send me any unsolicited emails.
======
To Whomever Wrote the Email about Lazaris:

Lazaris said Peny didn't die of disease. He never said she didn't have a
disease or illness. There's a distinct difference between the two. "Die" and
"Have" are not interchangeable words.

The coroner's office had to make a report as best they could. I'm sure they
were wrong if they said she actually died of the things you have said they
said. That doesn't mean she didn't have those problems. Things aren't always
as they seem. People even get sent to prison when they are in fact innocent.

I'm sure the coroner's office reported what they thought was true, but that
doesn't make it true.

I don't know who you are since you didn't sign your name to your email, but I
do know I have a track record with Lazaris that proves time and time again
that he is totally & completely, 100% trustworthy. So, as of now, my trust in
what they told us about Peny's death is what I will believe, regardless of
coroner reports or anything else for that matter. They have proven their
trust to me more times than I can count. Why now would Lazaris choose to lie?
I just don't buy it. They don't have anything to gain by lying to us, nor is
it in their character to do so, or to even consider doing so.
======
Who are you? Why are you sending me email without signing it?
======
TED BIN LADEN AND KATIE BIN LADEN,

HOW DARE YOU STEAL MY E-MAIL ADDRESS AND WRITE THIS SHIT TO ME ?

YOU THINK THAT PENY WAS RUDE, ETC ? I'll show you what ligitimate rude is !!

MR TUXEDO AND MISS EVENING DRESS THAT WENT UNNOTICED AT THE MILLENNIUM DINNER ,

WHAT THE HELL PENY AND ANYBODY ELSE DOES/DID IS NONE OF MY CONCERN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU SHALL FORTHWITH REFRAIN FROM SENDING ME ANYTHING WHATSOEVER.

YOU SEND ME ANOTHER THING AND I'LL SUE THE BLOODY TUXEDO AND THE BLOODY UNAPPRECIATED EVENING DRESS RIGHT OFF YOUR BACKS!!!!!

WHERE THE HELL IS IT WRITTEN THAT YOU ARE MY SELF APPOINTED SAVIOURS ??????????

YOUR MARTYRHOOD, YOUR HATRED AND YOUR RAGE AND SHAME DUMPING IS OUTRAGIOUS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHAT A SHAME THAT LAZARIS DID NOT PERSONALLY AND PUBLICLY ACKNOWLEDGE THE GRACE THAT YOU BESTOWED ON EVERYBODY BY PUTTING IN AN APPEARANCE AT WORKSHOPS AND VERY OBVIOUSLY IMPOVERISHING YOURSELVES BY BUYING TAPES.

AND WHAT A SHAME THAT YOU NEVER MADE THE MILLIONS THAT YOU THOUGHT YOU WOULD BY VIRTUE OF YOUR MERE MEMBERSHIP OF THE FORUM.

IT IS QUITE CLEAR THAT SOME THINGS FORTUNATELY [ like your shit] AND UNFORTUNATELY [ what Lazaris teaches] DO NOT RUB OFF.

YOU ARE NOT FUCKING CONCERNED FOR ME.

YOU ARE CONCERNED WITH TAKING REVENGE ON PENY

YOU ARE CONCERNED WITH YOUR OWN RAW HATRED

YOU ARE CONCERNED WITH YOUR RAGE

YOU ARE CONCERNED WITH YOUR SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS

YOU ARE CONCERNED WITH FEELING TOTALLY UNAPPRECIATED

YOU ARE CONCERNED WITH FEELING ILL TREATED AND

YOU ARE CONCERNED WITH PUNISHING

YOU ARE SPIRITUAL FUCKING TERRORISTS

FUCK YOU

FUCK YOUR RAGE

FUCK YOUR HATRED

FUCK YOUR EGO'S AND

FUCK YOUR MARTYRHOOD.

I have mixed feelings about this e-mail having gone out, but since it did, let the chips fall. I guess you responded in the way you felt was appropriate to get this information out in the open. I think it would have gotten out anyway, but this mailing no doubt sped up the process.

Some of these responses were mailed to me and Ted also, along with a few others. I guess they wanted to cover all bases, and leave no stone unturned in the spewing of their anger.

I just scanned through these but did find one statement I agreed with. "spill your putrid garbage ". It's putrid garbage alright, but it isn't yours, or mine, it's Jach's.

I never really understood the significance of the phrase "kill the messenger" until becoming involved with this site. I guess I thought it referred to the behavior of ancient Kings, I didn't realize what a knee-jerk response it is for so many people.

More lessons on the workings of the human mind, and the power of mind control.

Do you think any of these folks wrote back to you without checking in with Con:Sin first?

Anyone want to bet Con:Sin has a canned e-mail and phone response prepared for anyone who asks about this mailing? Wanna bet it uses the worlds "terrorist" and "coward", and mentions that it isn't "loving" for someone to send an unsigned message?

For the record, I have gotten a few nice and thoughtful mails as well. For some this information is important and disturbing. I think once all the indignation wears off, it will be very hard for even these people to digest the police report. Well, except for "Fuck You" that is. What was the point there? That we should get past our anger? Nothing like setting a good example!

Thanks for filling us in Coward.

Katie

My feeling about sending emails to people is that this site is real easy to find for anyone who is questioning the material, Lazaris, or CS. So, I wouldn't have done the email route. However, that's my opinion - not judging you for yours.

Interestingly, I never did a search for "Lazaris" on the Internet until I started having serious misgivings about them. I did a lot of searches for other things. Just goes to show how much we sometimes want to shield ourselves from alternate opinions and information.

These responses continue the Forum pattern of indescriminate judgment. Many in the Forum seem to have trouble differentiating between a person who tells a few ethnic jokes and a mass murderer. A terrorist is a cold-blooded mass-murderer, not someone with a different opinion, or even someone who is "in martyr".
You certainly didn't theaten anyone. Maybe you threatened their beliefs...

How easy it is to turn a loving, powerful, magician into a raging, out-of-control maniac. I particularly enjoyed the last one complaining about our rage.

Cheers, Ted

Oh my Gawd..I got goose bumps reading all that hatred spewed at you.

I have never read/ heard anything like this.

truly a very sick deluded group of peepull, and I relaize fully again what a powerful thing denial is, and HOW deeply washed some peepulls brains can get.

I am sad for all humanity for this, as I know it is precisely the same mechanism that can make a "person" fly a full jet liner into a tall building.

The way this whole sorry story ends will show us if humanity has a chance at all.

Thanks for providing the responses.

While I can understand some anger over receiving unsolicited email, I hope these people don't flip out over every "SPAM" they receive. I'm sure if you sent it with your real name, those who complained about your cowardly nature would have taken even more vicious strikes.

Scary stuff.

The hostile reponses just show how threatened these so called "magicians" feel. I'd say the more hostile the reply, the more powerlessness felt by the "mapmaker." It's just this type of reaction that shows the disempowering codependency that is the real work of "Lazaris."

Refusal to look at the sorry, sick truth and then deal with the personal impact what is cowardly.

Hope you received, or will receive some thanks. Knowing that at least one more person is on the way to setting her/his mind free is a beautiful thing.

Jade

I noticed this bit of vague dismissal in one of the posts:

quote:

---

In all my time with Lazaris, I have never heard them say the things they accuse Lazaris of saying. So why should I believe them now?

---

Whenever I remember where I heard a quote of Lazaris', I reference the tape, book etc., sometimes even the page number or which side of the tape is was on. I know that others often do the same. The few times that I felt that Lazaris was misrepresented here, I addressed it.

This reader apparently latched on to one or two discrepencies and judged the entire board because of them. That's easier than actualy thinking, I suppose.

Of course, even if we did routinely misquote Lazaris, the reports on Peny's and Michaell's death are reproduced verbatim, from the original. And if you don't believe that you can order your own copies.

To the FOLs: We already know that we're martyrs, terrorists and cowards acting out of envy, jealousy and rage. If you send more emails, please include some original thoughts. Maybe that will help convince us that one can thrive using the Lazaris materials.

There are few people I've ever met who are as well versed in the L materials as you, but the others I've met here. The problem with Forumites is that they are forced to somehow live with the glaring inconsistancies between some of the material and the mindset and behavior of the Gangstas.

It makes for a terrible state of confusion, not to mention the need to develop the ability to rationalize anything, up to and including the definition of terrorism.

quote:

---

Maybe that will help convince us that one can thrive using the Lazaris materials.

---

Maybe they can convince themselves that a death like Peny's is the mark of a powerful magician, and the love of Jach is worth more than that blob I just scraped off the bottom of my shoe.

Isn't it odd that through all of these accusations no one can come up with a better reason for the existance of this site and the reasons for our anger than that we didn't get noticed at the Millennium? But, funny thing, weren't we getting thrashed during Forum Storm because we did get noticed? I'm so confused! Why are we mad Ted, do you know? Evidently we forgot to process and mention that. I'm digging deep, but I think it has something to do with a cult? Could that be it?? Where did I put my notes?

Oh, and wasn't there something about a police report? I thought that was what the e-mail was about. Oh, my negative-ego has me all confused, my dark shadow is blinding me, and I just don't know what to think, but that's a good thing, right?

Katie

Thank you for your spontanious, daring act of socially responsible chaos. IMO it sure let the world see where these self-absorbed, yuppie infantile, Con:Sin cult-controlled people live: emotionally. What *completely* health-deadly states of unthinking, reactive punishment.

Wow. I just thought of something -- Dr. Andrew Weil, M.D. has done a *great* deal of publicity -- along with the "AMA standard" medical community -- now (thank Goddess): about the HUGE HORMONAL / BLOOD CHEMICAL / ENZYME-connection between living in a constant state of mindless, socially impotent knee-jerk anger and *heart disease*. OHHHHHH, THANK you Lazaris!

Oh Jesus Christ.

God damn it I miss Peny -- and the spicy, biosphere lethal yuppie status quo-dangerous, emotionally healthy, wise, old rich hippiel I know she could have been.

Steve

I would like to make some comments about the following email that was quoted:

[[[[
Lazaris said Peny didn't die of disease. He never said she didn't have a disease or illness. There's a distinct difference between the two. "Die" and "Have" are not interchangeable words.

The coroner's office had to make a report as best they could. I'm sure they were wrong if they said she actually died of the things you have said they said. That doesn't mean she didn't have those problems. Things aren't always as they seem. People even get sent to prison when they are in fact innocent. I'm sure the coroner's office reported what they thought was true, but that doesn't make it true.

I don't know who you are since you didn't sign your name to your email, but I do know I have a track record with Lazaris that proves time and time again that he is totally & completely, 100% trustworthy. So, as of now, my trust in what they told us about Peny's death is what I will believe, regardless of coroner reports or anything else for that matter. They have proven their trust to me more times than I can count. Why now would Lazaris choose to lie? I just don't buy it. They don't have anything to gain by lying to us, nor is it in their character to do so, or to even consider doing so.
]]]]]

Such blind allegiance to Lazaris!

The emailer said: Lazaris said Peny didn't die of disease. He never said she didn't have a disease or illness. There's a distinct difference between the two. "Die" and "Have" are not interchangeable words.

Fortunately, most of us do not make a distinct difference between twisting the truth way beyond its breaking point and lying. I am reminded of Clinton's definition of the word "is". I challenge anyone who says that Lazaris was not lying to do the following. Have someone who does not know Lazaris read the entire death investigation (especially after we also have the supporting detail from the coroner) and also listen to the tape. Ask person after person to do the same. Then ask them if they think the person on the tape is lying.

I understand how people who are deeply blinded by the "love of Lazaris" may never see this as a lie, no matter how intelligent they are. I would be shocked if someone who is not vested in Lazaris (assuming at least an IQ of 90) would reach the conclusion that Lazaris was telling the truth.

The emailer said: Why now would Lazaris choose to lie? I just don't buy it. They don't have anything to gain by lying to us, nor is it in their character to do so, or to even consider doing so.

The emailer is correct in asking why Lazaris would choose to lie. There would be absolutely no reason to lie if Lazaris is indeed who he says he is (an entity that is being 100% objectively channeled). However, if this is not the case, Jach/Lazaris has every reason to lie. It's called protecting your revenue base. If the true details of Peny's death were known, people would rightfully question Lazaris. In doing so, many will stop sending their money to CS.

I do not agree that Lazaris was lying.

Here is a transcript of Lazaris' comments on the Healing Alliances tape:

Lazaris: "Peny did not die of a disease or of an illness. Peny did not die of coronary, cardiac, or respiratory complications or disorder. The medical examiner, with autopsy, knows that the causes are natural, but has not been able to pinpoint precisely what those causes were. It would be physically and metaphysically correct to say that Peny left her body and decided not to return, and her body stopped breathing in the early morning hours Wed. May 9, 2001…."

Comments are as follows:

Lazaris: "Peny did not die of a disease or of an illness… Peny did not die of coronary, cardiac, or respiratory complications or disorder… It would be physically and metaphysically correct to say that Peny left her body and decided not to return, and her body stopped breathing in the early morning hours Wed. May 9, 2001."

My comment: Death is a choice that each of us makes by either creating or allowing; a choice made in conjunction with conscious mind, higher self, and soul. This is the cause of death, in all cases of death that have ever happened or ever will happen. This is true even of someone who unexpectedly dies an accidental death or death by overdose or by heart attack. In one sense, you could say the cause of death was the accident or the overdose or the heart attack, and indeed that is what the death certificate will say, and that is the rule of the consensus world about us. But metaphysically, no one ever dies an accidental death. It doesn't just happen. There is a deeper meaning, a deeper causation.

Those who choose not to look at life and death in a metaphysical way will naturally disagree with this, and will become angry indignant and sarcastic because the 'facts' point otherwise. I understand that some will hold fast to this world view, but I do not personally agree. If this is your view of life and death, I grant you your beliefs; I do, however, disagree.

If one remains entrenched only in the physical realm of cause and effect, then it would be easy to conclude Lazaris was lying, assuming that Lazaris had full and advance access to all the medical examiner's conclusions even before they were concluded. If you have a metaphysical view of life and death, then Lazaris was telling the truth. I know that you disagree with this view; I grant you your point of view; we will have to agree to disagree.

In order to say that Lazaris is lying, you also would have to make the statement that the Lazaris material relies only upon the consensus reality view of life and death and that Lazaris does not espouse the philosophy of creating your own reality. This, of course, has never been consistent with what Lazaris talks about. I know that you disagree with what I am saying; we will just have to agree that we disagree.

I understand your disagreement with Lazaris' statement as being based upon a non-metaphysical view of death. As a metaphysician, I disagree with this, and we will just have to agree that we disagree.

Lazaris: "The medical examiner, with autopsy, knows that the causes are natural, but has not been able to pinpoint precisely what those causes were."

This statement by Lazaris was made July 27. Is a medical examiner's report available, and what is the date of that report? From information posted, I do not see a medical examiner's report. I see reference to the medical examiner's conclusions on a police report that is signed off on one scanned image with the date 9/5/01. If this is inaccurate, please correct me. If a final medical examiner's conclusion and report was available and released for public perusal prior to July 27, with knowledge of this given to Jach prior to July 27, please cite this documentation and I will stand corrected.

If a medical examiner's report becomes available and is dated after July 27, I do not see how you can say that Lazaris was lying about what his comments about the medical examiner. I know that you disagree, and I grant you your point of view; we will have to agree to disagree.

As a physician (3 years general practice/12 years Board Certified Family Practice/4 years residency and fellowship), I have filled out numerous death certificates. It is not acceptable on a death certificate to put a vague diagnosis such as 'natural causes,' or 'old age,' or even 'cardio-respiratory arrest.' The one who signs the certificate must come up with something more definite that could be defended to a group of consensus-oriented peers. And sometimes you have to scratch your head and really hunt for a diagnosis, asking questions like: was it really heart disease? Was it respiratory failure? Was it a drug overdose that was the final straw? You have to make a decision and come up with something definite.

If the final report had not been released by the medical examiner's office before July 27, it is because they were still working on it, there more details to gather or fill in, or test reports still pending. If the report was not finalized before July 27, it was because the final conclusions, wording, data and content had not yet been determined.

It can take many months before a final medical examiner's report is completed.

Lazaris: "The medical examiner, with autopsy, knows that the causes are natural, but has not been able to pinpoint precisely what those causes were."

How is this a lie by Lazaris if the statement was made on July 27, and the final conclusion of the medical examiner has not yet been released to the general public? (Please correct me with the appropriate documentation if I am wrong.)

Regarding the diagnosis of atherosclerosis, from my point of view, this, really, is not a big deal. It is a common diagnosis on autopsy findings. Chances are that if you and I died today and had an autopsy performed, one of the diagnoses on our death certificate would be atherosclerosis, even though neither of us has overt signs or symptoms of circulatory disease, and both of us are relatively young. I direct you to the following website for information on this: http://www.meddean.luc.edu/lumen/MedEd/MEDICINE/medclerk/cad/lesson.htm The hallmark study that we are taught about in medical school is the Korean War study in which 78% of combat casualties had autopsy diagnoses of atherosclerotic vascular disease. One would not expect this because most soldiers are young men, age in late teens and early 20's. Nevertheless, this is what was found, the trend has been substantiated in several other studies of young trauma victims.

In the absence of an actual autopsy report, I do not believe that one can with fairness and accuracy make the statement that Peny had congestive heart failure and that her death had anything to do with heart disease. Please correct me if there is available factual evidence to the contrary. Bear in mind that studies have shown that upwards of 70% of asymptomatic young people in their 20's have an autopsy diagnosis of atherosclerosis. This does not mean that they had any symptoms of heart disease, or that their death had anything to do with heart problems.

It is not unusual for very obese people to feel short of breath, and to use small amounts of supplemental oxygen just as a function of their obesity.

I do not see anywhere in Lazaris' comments the assertion that Peny was living a peaceful, pain-free, disease-free life prior to her passing. There is an inference in your posts that expects that this would be the case if Peny was truly a spiritual being. I stand corrected after you cite to me the recorded or printed words to the contrary.

You make the statement that Peny was presented by Lazaris as the world's most advanced magician, the most evolved being on the planet. I remember from the tape of Lazaris Explains Lazaris, something about Peny having figured out how to love herself, and the special energy that Peny holds about her. Out of 24+ years of attending Lazaris seminars and talks, I remember many times when Lazaris talked of Peny and her process with respect, but I don't recall him specifically labeling her in terms as you describe. I will stand corrected if you can direct me to the printed or recorded quote from Lazaris on this. I have heard of others building her up in that way, but have not heard Lazaris claim this.

I ask that if anyone responds to this post that you please withhold a tone of sarcasm or hostility.

A final note: I did not communicate with anyone at Concept Synergy before writing this. What I have written represents my own opinion, with input from no one but myself.

Thank you.

Welcome! And thanks for writing. I can't guarantee that no one will respond with sarcasm, there are a lot of intense emotions here amongst the group of us who have been pondering the claims and functions of the Lazaris materials. Many of us have a lot more reasons to suspect the truth of the existance of Lazaris as claimed than these recent reports. For me particularly, this is all anti-climactic, and only one more piece to fit into an already very clearly evolved puzzle.

You may encounter sarcasm, I don't know, there is anger here, and IMO rightfully so. As to hostility, we have found most often that disagreement and hostility become interchangeable in the minds of many FOL's and cult apologists. If you take that route, should just let you know in advance that I don't see a reason that anyone should be responsible for that. Maybe you will surprise us and react differently should your thinking come into dispute. To date, all Lazaris apologists have left here screaming that they've been abused, or just left the conversation dangling.

There is also a powerful resistance to the kind of thinking that allows for people like Jach to enrich themselves to the detriment of others. A lot of people have been hurt by Jach and Peny personally, and by the Lazaris materials specifically, as has been recently noted in a stellar example by our friend Lynn who now recognizes that her faithful investment in the L materials might very well have put her son's life at risk. Clearly Peny's life was put at risk, there seems to be no avoidance of that. She's dead, and by even your evaluation of her condition, she didn't have to die. She was neglected to death IMO, by "metaphysicians" who believe themselves to operate outside the laws of common sense and responsibility.

You say that all death is a choice, and I don't think anyone here will deny that. For a 55 year old woman who many times stated her intention to live far and beyond the normal life expectancy, you might say that it was a tragic choice, a choice born out of pain and frustration. As Lazaris says, everything is a choice, but not all choices are growth choices, and in some instances we can create such a horrendous reality that our choices are incredibly narrow or non-existant. I suggest that the details of Peny's illnesses and death indicate just that.

So, yes, I agree with you that Peny's death was a choice. I do not in anyway agree that it was her first or best choice. Someone in that much pain and degradation would have little to live for. The Peny who Lazaris and Jach describe would have everything to live for. Peny herself proclaimed her desire to continue her joyful existance for many years to come.

Ultimately, I see in your perspective the ability to justify and rationalize anything.
All choices are metaphysical, that doesn't make them all good.

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In one sense, you could say the cause of death was the accident or the overdose or the heart attack, and indeed that is what the death certificate will say, and that is the rule of the consensus world about us. But metaphysically, no one ever dies an accidental death. It doesn't just happen. There is a deeper meaning, a deeper causation.

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Yes, and what deeper meaning and causation is indicated in such a tremendously inelegant death? Would anything that Lazaris teaches indicate that it is a sign of powerful magic for someone to suffer for endless months and evidently spend their last days living in a wheelchair in their bathroom, swilling vodka and self-medicating out of a fear of doctors?

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Those who choose not to look at life and death in a metaphysical way will naturally disagree with this, and will become angry indignant and sarcastic because the 'facts' point otherwise. I understand that some will hold fast to this world view, but I do not personally agree. If this is your view of life and death, I grant you your beliefs; I do, however, disagree.

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I think you make a huge mistake in assuming the lack of a metaphysical viewpoint amongst our posters here, Theo. I don't believe there to be one of us who is not a spiritual seeker, and a believer in more than just the physical. Most of us here are far more versed in the Lazaris material than our average critics are. A lot of sincere, deep, and heartfelt thinking and observing has gone into the process and discussion here. We are not the embittered, angry, jealous group that Con:Sin claims we are, and in fact, that assertion, completely uncontested by "Lazaris" is a big indication to most of us that either there is no "Lazaris" or that "he" is not who he is claimed to be. None of us abandoned "Lazaris", "he" abandoned us, or failed to respond when our issues arose. It seems that "Lazaris" is only available to those who are deemed "appropriate" by Jach. When Jach's approval is removed, so is "Lazaris". I wonder how you explain that?

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If one remains entrenched only in the physical realm of cause and effect, then it would be easy to conclude Lazaris was lying, assuming that Lazaris had full and advance access to all the medical examiner's conclusions even before they were concluded.
If you have a metaphysical view of life and death, then Lazaris was telling the truth. I know that you disagree with this view; I grant you your point of view; we will have to agree to disagree.

---

What I am reading here is a statement that everything is true, and that we should not look to the "material" world for evidence of truth, or invest in the realities that are created, we should look beyond all that and see the "truth" in everything. I do disagree, and in all honesty, find the thinking to be irresponsible and ultimately shaming. It does not allow for us to respond to our physicality. It isn't hard to see how this thinking taken to it's ultimate conclusion would result in the kind of suffering and tragic death that Peny suffered. We can feel pretty sure that she too was looking beyond the physical for the solutions to her problems.

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In order to say that Lazaris is lying, you also would have to make the statement that the Lazaris material relies only upon the consensus reality view of life and death and that Lazaris does not espouse the philosophy of creating your own reality. This, of course, has never been consistent with what Lazaris talks about. I know that you disagree with what I am saying; we will just have to agree that we disagree.

---

I must admit that I'm finding it annoying that you argue our beliefs for us, rather than providing the opportunity to respond. You are assigning beliefs and perspectives that have nothing to do with anything anyone has ever written or said here. It is because most of us do believe in reality creation that we see the dishonesty in Lazaris' portrayal of Peny as a powerful magician. We see the circumstances of her life and death as a complete contradiction to that assertion. Most of us, including most FOL's had come to that conclusion long before we even knew that Peny was ill. She did not in any way exhibit any wisdom, power, or love. On the contrary, we factually know that Peny was a bitter and mean person who feasted on gossip and who took her pleasures in the humiliation and degradation of others.

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I understand your disagreement with Lazaris' statement as being based upon a non-metaphysical view of death. As a metaphysician, I disagree with this, and we will just have to agree that we disagree.

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Again, you provide yourself with a pat explanation of how most of us posters have reached the conclusions we have, but I state again, that your theory is incorrect. You ask for no hostility, but might we find some covert hostility in your assertion that you are the metaphysician here, and no one else?

The Medical Examiner's report is completed but not yet filed and available for distribution. Several of us have spoken to the personnel there, and the police have noted the coroners findings in their report.
We have also posted the contact information for anyone else who is interested in discussing this matter, or receiving a copy of the report for themselves. As we've been told, prior to July 27 the coroner was having a hard time pinpointing ONE specific cause of death, because Peny had so many physical issues. It was widely assumed that the cause of death would be deemed "congestive heart failure" until evidently the toxicology reports came back that indicated toxic levels of the substances now listed in the cause of death.

The diagnosis of "congestive heart failure" was made assumptively from the moment Peny's body was brought to the coroner, and it was only because of the insistance of the investigative detectives that any extensive autopsy procedure was initiated.

So, you're saying that the wisdom of Lazaris exists within the constraints of time? I never heard that. I thought Lazaris exists outside space and time. Beyond that, are you saying that when Lazaris says that Peny just made an impulsive decision to leave one night, that she did not die of any disease or illness, that he was providing a factual or honest depiction of what happened? Everyone's heart stops when they die, and a debilitating, painful, and degrading process of illness does not make for any frivolous or impetuous decision to just leave. Neither does an accidental drug overdose.

You are free to ignore the surrounding facts, and confine your focus on the specific second of death, but those of us who are sincerely interested in understanding will by right of the use of our god given brains and self respect look a bit beyond.

Above and beyond the metaphysical belief that the person chose to die, there is interest and value in knowing how the body manifested that choice. It would be incredibly significant, for example, if we were to find that Peny had been happy, healthy, productive, smiling and laughing right up until her death. It would have been enormously telling if the facts were shown that Peny just gave a big huge smile and stopped breathing. That is the picture that is painted by the Jach/Lazaris spin, but it is not factual. The events leading up to the death provide quite an insight into the state of consciousness our "powerful magician" friend was in at the time of her passing. What "conscious, magical, powerful, joyful" choice is indicated in such a horrific death as hers?

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Regarding the diagnosis of atherosclerosis, from my point of view, this, really, is not a big deal. It is a common diagnosis on autopsy findings.

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But, you seem to be missing the surrounding facts. Peny was ill, in pain, drinking and popping pills to alleviate it. She refused
medical assistance, and was not provided any.

Her "common" condition had escalated into a painful, debilitating, and dangerous enough situation that she died as a result of trying to alleviate the pain. It appears evident that she would have died soon anyway, given the extent to which she had deteriorated. Are you trying to say that she wasn't any sicker than anyone else?

As you state, her condition was not necessarily serious, neither is an infection, but people die from things that remain untreated appropriately. Peny's fear of doctors, and complete disbelief in her own power to choose something better than being left a vegetable under medical care does not reflect the thinking or behavior of a powerful magician.

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In the absence of an actual autopsy report, I do not believe that one can with fairness and accuracy make the statement that Peny had congestive heart failure and that her death had anything to do with heart disease.

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There is a report, and it does make that statement. As a physician, you also know that the source of Peny's leg pain was a condition which is caused by poor circulation often caused by congestive heart failure. I have to note Theo, that your incredible process of denial and rationalization is classic cult behavior.

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I do not see anywhere in Lazaris' comments the assertion that Peny was living a peaceful, pain-free, disease-free life prior to her passing. There is an inference in your posts that expects that this would be the case if Peny was truly a spiritual being. I stand corrected after you cite to me the recorded or printed words to the contrary.

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I think you just need to stand corrected Theo. In countless comments and writings Lazaris discusses the blissful life that Peny was living. Maybe where you should concentrate your energy more appropriately would be in convincing us that the scene the police found when called in after the death was in someway reflective of a blissful and magical, or powerful life.

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I ask that if anyone responds to this post that you please withhold a tone of sarcasm or hostility.

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I ask that you look beyond your need to be responded to by a tone of your own perceptions. Tone isn't the issue here, Truth and honesty are. Sometimes, often in fact, we find that the quest for that comes across here as "hostile". I leave you to your own perceptions on that. This is not a social encounter group, we are discussing issues here that are of vital concern to all of us metaphysicians. I ask you to please not attempt to manipulate how anyone can respond here by placing this burden of perception on us. If someone calls you names, or wishes ill on you, I will be the first to stand up.

Anyone who investigated the process of magic, even to the extent of reading a dime store paperback knows that the creation of "magic" requires precision and attention to detail. "Lazaris" has provided the same information.

That is what we are doing here. Paying attention to the details rather than trying to fit our beliefs into some vague and frivolous explanation of facts that don't fit.

quote:

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A final note: I did not communicate with anyone at Concept Synergy before writing this. What I have written represents my own opinion, with input from no one but myself.

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As a former member of the Lazaris cult, I would respectfully suggest that you might want to take a closer look at the input which provides the foundation for your thinking.

Thanks again for writing. It's always interesting to hear what others are thinking.

Katie

Welcome!

Honesty deals with Truth. Spin deals with selected facts put forth in a context which benefits the desired spin. Maybe Lazaris could not be convicted in a court of law for their spin - maybe they technically didn't put forth anything that is not strictly factual. And maybe they did. In any case, FOLs have been encouraged to trust Lazaris' honesty - not their spin - implicitly.

As Bill O'Reilly would say, "this is a no-spin zone". Lazaris said that Peny chose to die, "impetuously". This certainly implies that she had other, positive choices. They said that her death was not a result of disease or complications brought on by disease. Certainly overdosing on pain medication can be considered a complication of whatever disease was the cause of the pain.

You say that Lazaris never said that Peny was the "world's most advanced magician, the most evolved being on the planet." I agree that, to my knowledge, Lazaris never used those exact words. But they did say that she was the reason for them coming. They did say that she chose to come back to physical life, that she was not impelled to do so by her karma. Hinduism refers to these people as "avatars", and they are indeed very rare. The implication was that Peny was/is "special".

BTW, Lazaris elsewhere states that we all choose to come back, that we enforce the laws of karma. In that sense we are all avatars. Why then specifically mention that Peny chose to come back? I don't know if Lazaris' take on karma is accurate or not, but it is clear to me that their description of Peny's relationship to karma is spin, not Truth.

Lazaris also has said that every death is a suicide because we all choose when and how to die. Again, why make the implication that Peny's choice is unique? What kind of choice was it? Was it empowered or default?

You wrote:

quote:

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I do not see anywhere in Lazaris' comments the assertion that Peny was living a peaceful, pain-free, disease-free life prior to her passing

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Lazaris has often said that Peny spent her time creating all sorts of miracles and that she and Jach had no more relationship problems (with others). They also said that they (Lazaris) create their own reality and chose to create a reality where they are not criticized. I guess that means this board is in a different set than Lazaris. (Hey that's a good rationalization - I developed those skills during 12 years with Lazaris )

You say that the medical examiner needs to explain the death within the confines of the Consensus Reality. In 1952, when Paramahansa Yogananda consciously left his body forever, the mortualry director of Forest Lawn Memorial Park in Glendale, Ca. didn't attempt to force an unusual phenomenom into Consensus Reality constraints. He testified that Yogananda's body, "manifested a phenomenal state of immutability... No odor of decay emanated from his body at any time". Yogananda was in good health and very active up to his death. He entered meditation after concluding a welcome speech to the Ambassador of India in Los Angeles, and left his body then. Lazaris' spin would have us believe that Peny made a similar elegant exit.

I think there is a danger in looking too closely at the precise form of words people use. It's like Clinton's odd definition of the word "sex"... In a very pedantic sense he was probably right, but he was still deceiving people. He knew that people would lock onto the obvious meaning of what he was saying and ignore the pedantic one.

I was never a Friend of Lazaris; my group was quite different, but your post nevertheless struck a chord with me. We used to argue about the meaning of single words in the Bible. You could read something and it would have a certain everyday meaning. Then someone would say, "but it says `and' here." Soon you would be totally confused.

If you want to know whether Lazaris lied, I believe you should ask yourself what a reasonable person would think on reading his words.

Welcome to the site.

An overall impression I come up with is that using your logic one could state that the ultimate truth is that everything is true. For example, if I was seen at the local convenience store today at 12:00PM, I could rely on metaphysics to claim that I was not at the convenience store today at 12:00PM. On top of time and space being an illusion, there most certainly was a part of me, perhaps a parallel life or just some aspect of me, that wasn't there. Thus, I did not lie.

While we are playing this game called physicality, I think it behoves us to show good sportsmanship and play by the rules when trying to communicate with others. I think "Lazaris" should be aware of those rules also.

However, you seem willing to break from metaphysics when it is convenient to your argument. For example, you say that Lazaris may be accurate in what he states about the coroner's report since it had not been filed yet. The Lazaris that I thought I knew would certainly be able to peek a little into the future. He would also know about the real physical cause of her death the moment it happened, if not before.

Are you aware that some of us have communicated directly with the detective in charge of this investigation? As Katie points out, everyone assumed that she had congestive heart failure. There was never a time where they were scratching their heads wondering how this poor woman could possibly have died.

Finally, I would like your opinion about what Lazaris said about Michaell. To paraphrase, he said that Michaell had an unprecedented and impeccable level of comittment and integrity. I would think that a person of such comittment would not have cut off all contact with all of his immediate family from three generations (his daughter, his brother, and his parents). Just so you don't start to think that all of his family was all evil and therefore his actions were justified, please know that we have heard that Jach also cut off contact from his family. And as to integrity, I think if you take a closer look at Tradevest and other MLM scams he was involved with, you would question that claim also.

Craig

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Just so you don't start to think
that all of his family was all evil and therefore his actions were justified, please know that we have heard that Jach also cut off contact from his family.

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I also wonder if Peny had cut off family relationships.

Thanks for responding to Theo's post, I found myself just getting infuriated and writing it off, but I see that you can focus, and elegantly address the inconsistencies of this type of logic...

I remember having a metaphysical "argument" with a "Beyond War" proponent when I was working for Greenpeace, and he told me
"Don't worry,...the dolphins ARE already SAVED AUDREY" ......argghhh....

You are right to point out that the faulty reasoning behind this type of thinking is in Bizzarus denouncing time, and then putting it front-and-center...when it suited the agenda..

I wonder why Bizzarus would bother to put out the tape each year with the "energies" to come...??? and why bother naming it as well....

YES,....in the Grand Scheme of THINGS...anything can happpen, and anything can be made out of what just happened....

My respectful questions to you would be...

If you had heard this information about a person that you did not know or have some connection to, would you be sing the same tune? Or would you say, "There is a very good chance that this person died because of poor lifestyle choices and the lack of dealing with some very real problems."?

If you had a very close friend or family member that was drinking heavily or taking large quantities of painkillers, would you attempt to do something about it? Would you call a crisis line or try to connect to a counselor or doctor just so you could receive some personal support (even if they do not want any) while trying to deal with this crisis situation?

Lets take Lazaris out the picture for a minute and look at the police report. Look at what Michael said. He was feeding her painkillers. How long would it take for someone to die when they are eating such large qualities? Did Peny really make a conscious, spiritually mature choice at the time of her death? Or was it a drugged up, in pain, unconscious choice to leave? If Lazaris were not endorsing the idea that she simply left her body would you believe it?

I have a feeling that if anyone else died like Peny did that both Lazaris and Peny would be the first ones to say that that person was a martyr and very much in negative ego.

quote:

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Chances are that if you and I died today and had an autopsy performed, one of the diagnoses on our death certificate would be
atherosclerosis, even though neither of us has overt signs or symptoms of circulatory disease, and both of us are relatively young.

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Atherosclerosis as a common condition okay, but atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease is not just diseased arteries but heart disease. And stasis dermatitis so painful that she overdosed to death on painkillers -- imagine the severe edema and the ulcerated flesh. Then even having this information, you suggest that the oxygen tanks were likely present because of the obesity, though heart disease indicates a poorly functioning heart, and fluid in the lungs is a likely factor in this scenario.

And sleeping in a wheelchair in the bathroom!! No none of the above fits with "no big deal." Who are you helping by minimizing the reality of Peny's condition?

"Lazaris" on Peny. At seminars I have heard him say, more than once, essentially the following,

"Peny's light was so bright that she (out of billions of spirits) attracted 'them' to her presence."

"Peny didn't have to come back to physical reality, but chose to because she knew we would need her help during this critical time on the planet."

Of course the implication is that the rest of us had "to come back," are not as evolved, and needed her help. Maybe a little "less than."

Makes you wonder why she "impetuously" exited before things became truly critical as they are now.

This glorification came out of the mouth of the woman's ex-husband, who refers to her as "the most wonderful woman in the world."

"Lazaris" set her up to be revered. This woman who did not behave as decently as the average human being, was able to wreak havoc because of the J/L adulation.

Peny was a very egocentric, mean-spirited woman. Because of the lavish praise she received from "Lazaris," she was in a position to clobber people to their core. Yes, we are all responsible for our own reality, but she and "Lazaris" are responsible and accountable for their behavior as well. I consider both of them to be profiteering spiritual predators.

"Lazaris" refers to "whispers" that get increasingly louder in our reality when we ignore them. Peny's nasty, unspiritual behavior was loud. Her death louder. The information in these reports is booming.

Jade

I think this topic has been touched on before, so forgive me if I repeat.

An emailer wrote: I know the love that I feel from and for Lazaris and nothing will change that.

I consider Lazaris's love to be cheap love. I hope people realize how INCREDIBLY easy it is for Lazaris to generate the feeling of love in us. He is pulling so many strings:

* Constant repetition of how much he loves us
* A feeling of being special by given the chance to communicate with someone from such a high level
* A friend who says he will always be there for us, including when we die
* A friend who says we are mapmakers, etc.
* A friend who implies he knows us more than we know ourselves and still says he loves us
* Someone who is giving us the secrets to the universe
* Someone who implies he can show us how to make our lives work in ways we have never dreamed of

If all of the above were true, the love would be genuine. But what happens to the quality of that love once we realize some of the things that are being said may be empty phrases or lies? Suddenly, the love appears to be on par of what we might temporarily feel from a prostitute who is faking love for the $$$.

The relationship and love never gets tested. When our reality fails, we blame ourselves and come up with a myriad of reasons why we failed. We never blame Lazaris. Instead, we shame ourselves and feel we may have let Lazaris down by our failure.

I do not doubt anyone who say they feel an incredible love from Lazaris. I know I have. I now realize, however, that what I felt was from something in me, not from Lazaris.

But what about the energy that is felt as Lazaris? That can equally as effectively be explained by one's own energy.

Cheers, Craig

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Constant repetition of how much he loves us

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I noticed how many times the Orb said that during the explanation of Peny's death. If you listen again, you might notice that it's excessive and almost desperate. This little speech is clearly not characteristic of Lazaris' usual bravado, and you can almost hear the tears being choked back.

Anyway, this is all love bombing that you are describing, and history shows how powerful it is, and how many people fall for it. It is phenomenally easy to evoke that "love feeling" in people, that is one reason that I am so resistant and opposed to any obligatory or contrived assertions of "love".

Even if everything Lazaris promises to be for us were true, there is still no real ability to interact and communicate. Sure, there is the claim of the blendings, but that is all very subjective as well. When your dear friend puts their arm around you and gives you a hug you know it. When Lazaris or our HS does the same we have to challenge our imaginations, and many many fail to ever succeed in creating that experience for themselves. Interestingly, I never had a problem with that, so much for the knee-jerkers who will assume I did.

Friends are there when you need them, and you don't have to buy a tape to converse with them. You can't pick up the phone and chat up Lazaris. That's why so many were fascinated with Peny and are with Jach and the Gang. They think those people have 24/7 access to the Orb, and hope they will get a peek into that intimacy that they don't themselves have.

Well, we have gotten our little peek haven't we? And, it is just a wee little peek. Imagine the full picture if this is what we were able to see with one little lifting of the veil of secrecy and deceit that surrounded that group.

There is more...much much more.

I forgot to mention this little discrepancy:

Lazaris said that Peny, "fulfilled her 2 mandatory life focuses". Um, if she didn't have to come back, why did she have mandatory life focuses? Why do any of us, if we create our own reality? Who made up that rule? There ain't no "Karma Lords", right?

Yes, we did touch on that before, but it was eons ago The subject may be found in a thread called Love Bombing.

You did a nice job of summarizing.

You wrote:

"Lazaris: "Peny did not die of a disease or of an illness."

Artful lie: she died from overdosing on meds being taken to alleviate the pain of the *underlying* disease and illness.

You wrote:

L: "Peny did not die of coronary, cardiac, or respiratory complications or disorder."

Correct: Cause of death was a drug overdose.
Lazaris' Lie of Omission: Not mentioning that fact.

You wrote:

L: "The medical examiner, with autopsy, knows that the causes are natural,"

1) Pure spin: All the medical examiner had ruled out at that point was foul play--but the implication of "natural" is that there was nothing untoward about Peny's death.

2) Outright lie: An accidental overdose is not a "natural" cause of death.

You wrote:

L: "....but has not been able to pinpoint precisely what those causes were."

Pure spin: the implication of the above comment is that the autopsy had left the medical examiner permanently puzzled, when in fact the investigation was not closed, with the medical examiner unable to "pinpoint precisely" what the cause of death was, but still ongoing.

Ask yourself this; do you think most people heard Lazaris' words and thought, "Oh, I see, Peny's death is still being investigated because the medical examiner just isn't done yet" or "The medical examiner couldn't figure out why Peny died".

Which thought did *you* think?

You wrote:

L: "It would be physically and metaphysically correct to say that Peny left her body and decided not to return, and her body stopped breathing in the early morning hours Wed. May 9, 2001…."

Misdirection: ultimately, we all leave our bodies and choose not to return, so how is an explanation of the death process itself an explanation for Peny's death in particular?

You wrote:

" If one remains entrenched only in the physical realm of cause and effect, then it would be easy to conclude Lazaris was lying,"

As Lazaris himself chose to address Peny's death in terms of "cause and effect" (mentioning "physical realm" issues such as disease, autopsies, etc) your point regarding the metaphysical validity of such explanations might be better served being addressed to him.

And if Lazaris wanted to avoid being misunderstood by those "entrenched only in the physical realm of cause and effect" why present her death in those terms? Where is the esoteric vision you have decided *we* lack in *his* detailed, earth-bound explanation?

You wrote:

.."assuming that Lazaris had full and advance access to all the medical examiner's conclusions even before they were concluded."

If a valid answer from Lazaris as to how and why his dearest friend died is based only on having access to the final medical examiner's report, that gives lie to everything he's taught and said for over twenty-five years concerning time, space and reality creation.

There are two choices here: If Lazaris is who he says he is then he should have known why Peny died, regardless of whether or not those in the "consensus reality" had finished their investigation yet; if we assume he is genuine, his explanation is not--it is a combination of lies, spin and misdirection.

If he is not who he says he is, then he relied not on any brilliant metaphysical skills (skills he's been claiming to teach for almost thirty years) but instead on the initial comments from the medical examiner, and has now been caught with his metaphorical pants round his ankles, since the investigation uncovered a drug overdose.

The bottom line is, either he is not what he has presented himself to be and had no idea that Peny really died of a drug overdose, or he *did* know, and lied--neither option speaks to his credibility or integrity.

You wrote:

"In order to say that Lazaris is lying, you also would have to make the statement that the Lazaris material relies only upon the consensus reality view of life and death "

Apparently, Lazaris himself relies very heavily on the consensus reality--and one based on unfinished medical investigations, at that.

flo

You wrote:

"Lazaris said that Peny, "fulfilled her 2 mandatory life focuses". Um, if she didn't have to come back, why did she have mandatory life focuses?"

Excellent point, Ted--and (as I'm sure you know, but others lurking may not) not only did Peny not have to come back, she *repeated* not having to come back three times:

"Therefore, she has returned three additional times beyond that which was necessary..."
--Lazaris Interviews Book 1

Hmm; guess she had mandatory life focuses in those non-mandatory lifetimes as well.

flo

flo

You wrote: Lazaris said that Peny, "fulfilled her 2 mandatory life focuses". Um, if she didn't have to come back, why did she have mandatory life focuses?

Excellent catch!

I can hear the spin machine cranking away...Out of her depth of love and spirituality she decided to create mandatory life focuses even though she didn't have to. Being so advanced, she would have been bored to tears without a challenge. She also felt it was something that would allow the common folks an opportunity to identify with her otherwise elevated nature...

Cheers, Craig

Thank you for your responses to my posts.

As you can tell, I remain endeared to Lazaris. I do not think it likely that my views are going to change and vice versa.

I still do not see a lie in the transcript of Lazaris' comments. To prove a lie, it is my opinion that one would need to prove that Lazaris and Jach were aware of a published medical examiner's conclusion prior to July 27, and one would also need to prove that Lazaris did not intend to speak about metaphysics when talking about how Peny died.

I don't think this would happen, but if it ever came up in a libel/defamation setting, I think it would be important to have an airtight factual case on these points, regardless of one's opinion on whether Lazaris would have or should have known this or that.

Regarding Michaell's character, I did not know him, and do not feel qualified to comment on this. I am not personally involved with MLM, and would not be comfortable rendering derogatory judgment on anyone else who engages in this without knowing more details; I don't know enough information. I would not want to render derogatory judgment on someone who has chosen not to have contact with their family without knowing precise details. What was the nature of the relationship and of the estrangement? Was there a legal settlement? Was money involved? Are the other family members, for example, fundamentalist Christians who refused further contact because of divergent beliefs? (I just made that up as an example of how knowing more information could be relevant to me before forming my opinion).

Thank you for 'listening' to me. (Reading my post). Perhaps you can understand and perhaps not, that I am choosing to not participate further on this web site at this time. One of the bottom lines, I think, is that regardless of what I say, or what you say, and how we phrase this point or that point, our views are not going to change. All of us are on a spiritual path. I wish you well.

Respectfully,
Best wishes,

I don't know if you're still reading; I hope so. It's good to hear other points of view—it's good for me to hear yours, and you to hear mine.

My dictionary defines a lie like this:

quote:

---

... an untrue or deceptive statement deliberately used to mislead.

---

The second part catches Clinton. He was being deceptive even if his statement wasn't, strictly speaking, untrue.

Jach/Lazaris said that Peny had made an impulsive decision not to return. Let's take the dictionary definition in two parts. First, is it deceptive? Does it convey the idea of someone dying of a chronic disease over a period of months? No, it does not. It suggests that death only became an issue at the moment when Peny did her impulsive act. In fact, it had been an issue for the whole time that her disease and overdosing had been life-threatening.

I appreciated your point of view. It was hard to imagine anyone stepping up to the plate and actually offering a defense based on the words but you managed to do that.

However I think you miss the point. It is not to put Lazaris through the legal ringer and see if he comes out clean. The mere fact that he needs a legal defense is enough to destroy his credibility. Lazaris does not get the benefit of the doubt here. If his explanations are not transparently honest in something as basic as how a person died, there is no use splitting hairs in his defense. Better to ask why his explanation needs such laundering to get by rather than resort to metaphysical explanations to make it all come clean in the wash. If Lazaris cannot be taken at face value, there is no need to hunt for the “real” explanation. The real explanation is the obvious one, L is not who he says he is. At least in this instance. Whether this instance discredits all his words is another matter and certainly worth another discussion.

Excellent points by all here by the way, very good stuff.

"To prove a lie, it is my opinion that one would need to prove that Lazaris and Jach were aware of a published medical examiner's conclusion prior to July 27,"

No, that is what would be needed if both Jach and Lazaris were merely human.

Given the extraordinary claims Lazaris has made about his consciousness, the standard used to determine a lie should be the standard Lazaris has publicly set for himself--it's that straightforward.

Previously, this entity has said it never needed to rely on the time/space continuum, the consensus reality or human paperwork to inform people of future energies, past lives or eternal truths;

"....seeing the future, the past and the present simultaneously, we began to have impact.."
-Lazaris Interivews, Book 1/pg 44

Suddenly deciding that these standards no longer apply is, ironically, a degradation of Lazaris's past and present claims of rarefied abilities--you "reduce" him to only possessing the ways of knowing the rest of us have; waiting on official reports and mundane fact checking.

He is no longer capable of seeing both the unfinished medical examiner's report while simultaneously knowing what the future report will ultimately reveal--he is, in short, not capable of doing what he has said is the very essence of what makes him different from humankind.

And that, Theo, is why it is a lie, however much you want to avoid applying Lazaris' own standards to himself.

If he is beyond time and space, then he knew what the future would bring and, as he has done in other matters, would have mentioned potential realities that might be created,
i.e., : "The medical examiner is currently puzzled, but will eventually find that Peny died of an overdose, and will further note underlying health issues involving obesity and heart disease--certainly so, this will be the consensus reality definition, but it is not the reality of her death as actually occured..." *That* would have been the truth, and left room for Lazaris to explain why the "consensus reality" would differ so radically from whatever explanation *he* had to offer for Peny's death.

Instead, Lazaris offered information about the medical report that has since proved to be completely wrong on the facts (which is what Lazaris chose to present--the medical "facts" of Peny's death) and we are left with, as I said, two choices; he is what he claims to be and therefore lied, or he is not, and without credibility.

You wrote:

"and one would also need to prove that Lazaris did not intend to speak about metaphysics when talking about how Peny died."

No, one has only to prove that words such as "autopsy", "medical examiner", "disease", "illness", "natural causes" etc were offered as an explanation within a *physical context* for Peny's death.

And unlike you, Lazaris clearly separated the physical from the metaphysical; medical "facts" first, then a spiritual explanation involving choices, decisions, and mandatory life focuses--why are you conflating the two, when Lazaris did not?

You wrote:

"regardless of one's opinion on whether Lazaris would have or should have known this or that."

It is not an "opinion", Theo; those of us extremely familiar with the material understand that Lazaris's claim that he perceives all reality simultaneously is one of the cornerstones of his credibility--he has used that point repeatedly to express his superior, "objective" understanding of our physical reality and therefore, his ability to help people evolve more elegantly and powerfully.

That claim becomes null and void if, as you say, Lazaris isn't expected to know the truth or be accused of lying unless there's a finished medical report on hand--he becomes less capable of knowing the "energies" of the future than any of us here who wondered, from the beginning, if there was more to Peny's death than met the eye.

We are taking Lazaris at his own words, applying the standard of consciousness he has led us to believe he possesses and then assessing the gap between the two--"would have or should have known this or that" becomes "If Lazaris is who he said he is, why *didn't* he know this or that?"

You wrote:

"One of the bottom lines, I think, is that regardless of what I say, or what you say, and how we phrase this point or that point, our views are not going to change."

The difference between our bottom lines, Theo, is that while you have not been where we currently are, most of us have been where you now stand; incapable of applying the Lazaris material to Lazaris himself, ignoring and avoiding the truths that become evident when those standards are used.

Good luck.

flo

You wrote:

"Excellent post to Theo!!!"

Thank you! :)

You wrote:

"Fascinating how he winds between the physical and metaphysical in order to justify his "endeared" feelings toward the Orb."

Isn't it? (And it's the kind of thinking Lazaris himself would dismiss as lacking discernment--I suppose there's irony to be found in that, but as much as I love irony, sometimes it wears thin, you know? :)

flo

You wrote:

"If his explanations are not transparently honest in something as basic as how a person died, there is no use splitting hairs in his defense."

Yet another excellent point--it all comes down to that in the end, no?

You wrote:

"Excellent points by all here by the way, very good stuff."

I agree--somehow, without planning to do so, all aspects of Theo's argument were addressed by different posters, from the medical to the metaphysical and all points in between.

Consider all of you as having received a bravo from me--well said, fellow fools.

flo