We can assume that some people reading this information here about the details of Peny's death will ask why we are interested or concerned or whether or not it is an invasion of privacy and propriety that we have pursued and are providing this information.

The ConSin spin on this site is that we are all functioning from an unexplainable place of unjustified anger, jealousy, and rage.

Although we've been down this road before, I think this might be a good time to open this conversation again.

My personal motivations stemmed originally from information Ted and I started to receive information that had never been revealed by Jach, such as his history of having studied Silva Mind control methods. This kind of information, and lots more that indicated that we weren't getting the full story caused me to want to know every detail about this group that I could dig up.

I had already been doing research on mind control and manipulation in a completely different context. More and more the search engines were bringing me to cult awareness websites in response to my queries using those terms. As I read the definitions of a cult provided, I found to my shock that my interactions with the Con:Sin and the further information I was receiving fell into the definition of a destructive mind control cult.

Given my shocking and disturbing process of having to re-evaluate my spiritual base of twelve years I did a lot of heartfelt soul searching and sending of out SOSs to the universe. My personal quest yielded a lot of very clear information assuring me that there is no helpful entity which would create a set-up like this. I have written the details of all of this on the Friend or Fraud part of the site. http://www.cosmicfool.com/lazaris

Ted and I decided to put up this site as a way of hearing from others who might be having the same questions and doubts, and to hopefully hear more information which would help in our quest to figure this all out. It also has served as a very effective way of processing the building righteous anger we were feeling. There is nothing at all unjustified in the anger that is a part of fueling this site.

The response has been far beyond anything we ever expected. Although it hasn't always been an easy road, we have shared this exploration here with mostly sincere people who had also been pondering many of the same issues.

It's just too much to go into the process that has occured here, but we have essentially opened a dialogue and investigation of cults, mind control, psychological and emotional manipulation, and learned a lot in the process. We've heard hundreds of stories about investment schemes, bad health advice, humiliations, degradations, breaches of trust, lies, distortions, manipulations, and mind boggling nonsense.

Although we have asked for it, we have gotten very little in the way of any substantial evidence that the Lazaris materials have been beneficial as they claim to be. Certainly many true and faithful believers have visited and contributed, but to date only a few have had much to say beyond to make general statements and assign motives to us for posting our thoughts here. We've had virtually no defense provided for the behavior of Jach, Peny, and the Gangsters, and we've yet to hear one personal anecdote that shows Jach as anything other than a very angry, nasty, selfish, arrogant human being. As controversial and blatently nasty as Peny was, she wins the popularity contest hands down among those who have had personal or intimate interactions with the two of them, a dubious honor.

Just as things kind of settled down here we had the news of Peny's death and Micheall's suicide and the discussion heated up again as more information came in, and particularly due to the edict of silence on the topic issued by Con:Sin.

We've had quite a few distractors, detractors, and private agendas to wade through, but in the process many who felt the need to share and discuss were provided with the opportunity to do so.

There is a group of us who are committed to seeing this issue through to some kind of evidentiary or behavioral closure. That means that we are wanting to know all the details of what goes on behind closed doors at Con:Sin that has anything to do with the materials provided, the claims made, or the impact of the behavior of that group on the followers. Some of us would like to see Jach put out of business, some would even like to see him jailed for fraud. Others just want a place to talk once in awhile, or to have the ability to read along as they work through their disillusionment on their own. And there is an overwhelming disillusionment here. Even the tried and true have expressed that on some level.

The details of Peny's death are pertinent simply because she was billed by Lazaris as the most powerful magician in the world, the shining light in the universe, etc etc. In that role she had power and status. She influenced countless people and participated in forming a belief system that is for many the foundation of their spirituality, the way they view and function in the world.

I think Peny's death was a protracted horror, one which opens even further questions. It certainly has provided an opportunity to lay culpability for dishonesty directly at Lazaris' feet. Only the most completely mind controlled could ignore the FACT that Lazaris and Jach both lied about the details of her passing.

I think this is very important information that is vital for all "friends of Lazaris" to ponder. If Lazaris led us down the path for 30 odd years on the topic of Lazaris, how else have we been misled? What are the implications to those who continue to look to Lazaris when making vital life decisions, raising kids, accepting jobs, making moves, responding to terrorists?

I can't answer those questions, but only provide the opportunity for the publication of as much information and perspective as possible to allow for others to find the truth for themselves.

I'd like very much to hear from others who might want to add anything, even though I know we've hashed this through a million times. We do have new visitors arriving, and I suspect that as the news spreads, and we get hard copies of the reports that there will be more.

I enjoyed reading your post.

You said: The ConSin spin on this site is that we are all functioning from an unexplainable place of unjustified anger, jealousy, and rage.

Maybe it is inconceivable to them that someone can be motivated out of a desire to find the truth. After all, it seems truth is a very foreign concept to them.

Equally surprising to them may be our determination to correct a wrong.

Whenever I need renewed energy for this endeavor, I remember our fellow poster working at ground zero. What this soul is being put through is unimaginable. My unnamed friend, you are an inspiration for me.

Cheers, Craig

I was looking for the post where you wrote about what Lazaris said at the Healing Alliances seminar (or whatever the hell it was called) pertaining to Peny's death, but I can't find it.

Someone wrote and asked what it said, and I happen to have listened to it (yucchhh) and taken some notes.

Jach, I mean Lazaris, said:

The reasons for Peny's death are private. She is loved even more now that she is dead (go figure that one out).

Peny did not die of a disease or illness, she did not die of coronary, cardiac or respiratory complications or disorders.

She died of natural causes, the coroner cannot pinpoint precisely what they were.

Peny was very impulsive, and just left and decided not to return. She was done with living. She succesfully accomplished her 2 mandatory and 5 selected life focuses. She was finished her life work.

She went out ahead of the consensus in life, and now she is beyond the beyond where words cannot describe.

She and Michaell were known for making swift and decisive actions. Now they are making maps and magic while soaring to places no one can dream of.

Now, excuse me, but what was swift and decisive about Peny's death? She was rotting away from over a year at least. She was clearly unable to walk properly into the Millennium event.

Oh Christ, what's the point?

What I want to know is why no one helped her.

Is this what Jach, Michaell, Jennifer, and the rest of those Gangsters call love?

There is no excuse, no justification, no rationalization. She was left to languish and die a slow and tortured death.

I just can't get past that.

In addition to the words that the tape contains, I distinctly remember the tone. I plan to re-listen to that tape now with the full knowledge of what actually happened. But first, I have to wait until my dinner fully digests.

The picture that I can't get out of my mind is that of Michaell sleeping on an inflatable bed in the BATHROOM with Peny by his side in a reclining wheelchair. That image is very depressing. I wonder how long they were forced to live that way.

I'm no fan of doctors and I know a lot of others who feel the same way. However, when I did major damage to my knee in a skiing accident, I went to the doctor. When I got poison ivy that caused my eyes to swell, I went to the doctor. Even if I didn't go on my own volition, I know there are others who care enough about me that would drag me to the doctor.

Craig

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The picture that I can't get out of my mind is that of Michaell sleeping on an inflatable bed in the BATHROOM with Peny by his side in a reclining wheelchair. That image is very depressing. I wonder how long they were forced to live that way.

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Well, Michaell certainly wasn't forced to live that way, he could have called a doctor.
They had enough money to fly one in from anywhere in the world. Peny could have been treated in her home, they could afford the medical equipment if they needed it.

The image haunts me too Craig. It's right out of a horror flick.

But, Lazaris assures us...it was all the joyful "swift and decisive" choice of a powerful magician.

Katie

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Well, Michaell certainly wasn't forced to live that way, he could have called a doctor.

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The report on Peny paints quite a grim picture, just from the description of the bathroom scene. Certainly others could have done better by her, but then she could have done more for herself. I wonder if fear of her illness becoming public kept medical help out of the picture.

Also, performing CPR on a peron in a wheel chair is obviously pointless since it doesn't even work on a bed -- has to happen on a hard surface.

So I wonder where was Jach when all this was happening. When Jennifer and Michaell decided to try to lower her 300 plus pounds to the floor, why not call a man to help instead of or along with Barbara B.

Just wondering

Jade

I exploded with anger about the cause of Peny's death -- before I read the blow-by-blow Florida coroner's report.

IMO these were *victimized* people, Katie.

IMO the two strongest Jachzaris in_cult_cated beliefs working inside Peny -- that brought her to such an early, horrible death --appear to be: 1) "No more than 15 minutes of aerobic exercise -- or you'll go numb!" (this -- along with Peny's Con:Sin Forum-expressed: *dogmatic* emphasis -- presumably from Jachzaris -- on the *healthfulness* of red meat and fat eating) AND: 2)"NEVER get diagnosed!" (I heard Jachzaris say this directly -- to 600 people).

Morbid obesity, congestive heart disease, an agonizing WELL KNOWN skin infection?!

ALL: well understood conditions, non-lethal and *EASILY* treated -- if caught *in time*.

Clearly, IMO -- Jachzaris' authoritative dogma made Peny dangerously and -- very *irrationally* afraid of doctors.

And God damn it -- I'll say it again: I LIKED Peny when she had the blood chemistry of an aerobicly exercising person.

Sufficient blood oxygenation really can make *that* much difference in a person's attitude -- and outlook about others.

Compassion increases in people when they get enough oxygen -- breathing and movement has been known for aeons to have this psychological impact on human beings.

IMO -- yes, absolutely: Jachzaris (who or -- *whatever* that is) killed Peny. There is now -- no question in my mind about this. The Florida coroner's and police reports speak just -- too many -- volumes this way IMO!

Who else -- HOW MANY others -- were so wounded in proper outlook on: self care / exercise / the safety of medical help?!

Would my old friend Dr. Bob Larzelere still be here -- had he not taken Jachzaris' "longevity suggestions"?

Is it time for a legal class action people?

It is starting to look like powerful ground for very public social justice by trial here.

How many -- have been so hurt?

God knows I'm not the only one wanting to know.

Steve

You wrote,

"Is it time for a legal class action people?

It is starting to look like powerful ground for very public social justice by trial here."

I think that people have been found quilty of fraud with far less evidence.

Lynn

Think of the legal precedent caused by having an entity on the stand. LOL.

I can here the defense attorney now: "Objection your honor, my esteemed colleague is clearly in negative ego".

Seriously, I hope we do something.

Yes it would be quite a scene in court. Just laying out the ground rules! Your Honour..."You create your own reality." "You know we don't have to learn this way!" and "Do you understand that we are simply here to have fun and create success?"

You guys crack me UP...!

I want to repsond to Katie's post asking for input as to why we're interested:

Recently I heard a radio interview with Carlos Santana about the why's and how's of his breaking off his relationship with -Sri Chimnoy-cult-

Some of what he said was that he'd gotten unable to stomach the lemonade cleansing drink anymore....heh, heh...

But then he went on to state that he would no longer listen to anyone say that "without me you are doomed" etc.
He knew in his heart that he could access the joy, love, angels, whatever he wanted from the higher planes without having Sri have to feed it to him,,,that type of thing, I am just para-phrasing him here.

As I was listening I remembered the old- time feeling of being cut off from all the really juicy stuff the universe had to offer because I could never make it through all the Bizzarus tapes, all the magical techniques, all the expensive crystals I'd never be able to afford, all the processing I'd need to get down pat.

The longer I was involved in Bizzarrus the more and more cut-off, and behind-it-all I felt. I now know that is purposefully created to make you frantically buy,buy,buy tapes.

AND the more Bizzarus "events" I attended the more cut-off from all those great other "magicians" in the room with me I felt.

I remember attending one of the oh-so-over done Atlantis seminars, and I was standing in this big room in SF and TRYING to get a FEELING because I KNEW all those other peepull in the room MUST have been Atlanteans or they wouldn't have "resonated" with that event and bothered to show up.

Thing is, I just felt cold, and empty, and totally alone, and I knew that none of these people were especially magical, or anything.

Then the INCONSISTENCIES were being shown to me, about how Bizzaurs would speak glowingly of a person I knew to be outwardly vile. (peny)the Forum, and horror stories from Ted and Katie.
I never had much courage to post on Forum myself after seeing the pretzel peepull would have to turn into to simply EXPLAIN what they'd write...no-thanks.!
In the end always being witch hunted into compliance- meaning the posters would end up seeing how they were in child, martyr etc.

So, I am interested in keeping this issue open, and expanding for others because as a typical CA native, I have now run into too many cults and THIS one was the WORST......

I am noticing more and more propaganda new-age bullshit being fed to hungry-for-something spiritually bankrupt sorry sorry peepull, especially here in CA for some reason..

I can't stand by and do nothing....

Washing someones brain for your own power-hungry purpose "for their own good" is EVIL

Jachass needs as much as the woo-woos on MT. Shasta to see the true light of scrutiny....the scrutiny of a court of law...that type....

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I am noticing more and more propaganda new-age bullshit being fed to hungry-for-something spiritually bankrupt sorry sorry peepull, especially here in CA for some reason..

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Chances are that the new terrorism crisis is making them even hungrier.

Jade

I was just listening to a very interesting author, Karen Armstrong.
She is a world religion expert, and was discussing Islam on which she's written several books...
Anyway, the interviewer asked her if she thought that we are in a time of many religions turning more and more fundamentalist, and she said definitely.

It helped me make a connection to our own experiences with CULTS, just like the more bona-fide religions of the world, perhaps we are experiencing a type of increase in intensity -we do have to take note of our current interactions with the jachzarrus followers definitely...

She went on to say that she is seeing an increase in NIHILISM, and said that several of the hijackers had consumed alcohol, and visited nightclubs, etc..and that was sooo far from what ANY moslem would do that she categorized it as (word I'd never heard);
antinomanism-which is a person who feels so blessed or above holy that they no longer need to abid by any laws at all not even the laws of their own religion.....
SOUNDS FAMILIAR.!!! I got goose bumps....

To summarize, it would seem that perhaps what is going on in the new age world is just to be expected because it is going on in many different strata of religious society....

I'm a newcomer here. I linked over from the e-mail you sent, and am reading these threads with interest. I also am a member of the J&L Forum, and lurk there regularly. After reading the following from Katie, I feel impelled to respond:

>> We've had virtually no defense provided for the behavior of Jach, Peny, and the Gangsters, and we've yet to hear one personal anecdote that shows Jach as anything other than a very angry, nasty, selfish, arrogant human being. As controversial and blatently nasty as Peny was, she wins the popularity contest hands down among those who have had personal or intimate interactions with the two of them, a dubious honor. <<

If you haven't received even one favorable anecdote about Jach and the others, I must step in. I do not mean to comment in the slightest on the current controversy. I am responding explicitly to Katie's statement, and am perhaps in a uniquely objective position to do so.

I have never in my life listened to a Lazaris tape. I have been to a few weekend seminars as a guest of C:S, but have not attended any live events for several years. I own one book by Lazaris, and engaged in one half-hour telephone reading with Lazaris, about five years ago, part of which impressed me positively. That is the extent of my involvement in Lazaris teachings.

Before the J&L Forum was established on the Web, Jach and Peny operated their online community within the New Age Forum on CompuServe, which was under the management of myself and two partners. For various reasons, I became the primary manager of their portion of the Forum, not least because Jach and I clicked personally from the start.

During those years and for a bit of time after C:S left CompuServe for its own domain, I was friendly with the entire C:S community. I spent time in the Palm Beach house; visited their homes in Sausalito for a week; prowled around the half-built Orlando complex with Jach; and visited them in Orlando after construction was completed. Over time we drifted apart, due solely to carelessness and the momentum of life--there has been no rift between us.

I can easily and happily report that Jach, Peny, Michaell, and everyone else associated with the community and its tape/event business were wonderful to me--kind, perfectly friendly, helpful, honest in business dealings, and consistent. I want to emphasize that my ignorance of Lazaris material was never the slightest issue. I was never even encouraged to listen to a tape, nor was I given any. I did receive free passes to live events during C:S's time at CompuServe. My awareness (or non-awareness) of Lazaris teaching was never brought up in conversation. I spent time with them during all parts of the day--we ate, watched TV, played games, surfed the then-new Web, talked up a storm, wandered in the California woods. We had good friendships in good times.

At one point I experienced a health crisis--this was after the move from CompuServe to the Web. I have rarely experienced a group of friends rally around with support as Jach, Peny, and especially Michaell did during that time. I can't count or even remember the number of late-night phone calls I had with Michaell as he shared his latest health research. Further, he talked to medical experts on my behalf and recommended books and other information sources. For all the world it appeared that he was devoting himself full-time to my well-being. Jach and Peny were hovering around worriedly as well. The dietary and medical information they pointed me to during that time catalyzed changes in my lifestyle that represented a turning point. I am now extremely fit and healthy.

I have no comment on the controversy surrounding Peny and Michaell's death, except to say their passing saddened me. They were good, astoundingly supportive friends during a phase of my life. I am disappointed that talk of discrepancies is discouraged (perhaps forbidden) in the J&L Forum. I have long experience, though, in managing online communities, and I know how complicated behind-the-scenes content decisions can be, even when they seem simple and dictatorial on the front end.

I want to post this because I might provide a unique voice during this time, of a C:S friend with barely any personal investment in the legitimacy of Lazaris teachings. Where the truth lies there, I cannot say. But I can say with certainty that Jach, Peny, and Michaell were good and pure friends who never for a moment entangled our relationship with matters of money or belief. If I were to describe their impression on me in two words, they would be generosity and love.

Welcome!

Well, it's actually nice to hear a good story. Sadly, it's hard not to hold it up against the knowledge we have of back-end gossip and two faced relationships. We know a few people who have gotten the "love" treatment in person, but who were also the target of some incredibly ugly commentary when they weren't around. We also know that friends get dumped when they are of no further use or service.

This is not to say that you weren't liked by them, or that the friendship they offered wasn't sincere. I hope it was.

I understand that there were controversies about the management of the Compuserve site. It's been suggested here that Peny's inability to have enough control on Compuserve is what inspired her to manage her own site. Do you have any details about that?

I'm sure it seems that I'm extremely cynical, and in fact I am. I was on the receiving end of Jach and Peny's wrath, and I've seen many others in that place as well, and it ain't pretty.

Some could say we "deserved" it, but I say that decent people don't use their well-promoted and deliberately contrives spiritual authority over others as a club. Our "crimes" all had to do with disagreeing with Peny, usually on some tiny point that any normal person would laugh off, or take the time to resolve in a productive manner.

Well, I'm glad to hear you escaped unscathed, I suspect your immunity to their spiritual status was a good thing, as was the fact that they very much were in need of your support and knowledge at that time.

Really, I don't mean to detract from your experience, I hope you understand that given all we know about these people, it's very hard to take anything they do simply at face value.

Thanks for writing, it was nice of you to do so.

I for one find your statements very difficult to believe.

You state that you attended one seminar , as a guest, then you state that you were never given any tapes etc. for free. I guess your definition of the word "guest" is different than mine.

When someone says they have had a reading it particularly peaks my interest, as I know that "strings" must be pulled to get a Bizzarus reading. The "pee-ons" such as myself were told that the waiting list streeeches from between 6 months to 3 years. go figure that math out, and then get back to me as to how you were never shown any special treatment.

You sound to me like either a member of the media, or someone with whom it would be very important for Jach/ all, to appear in a positive light. Perhaps at the time he like others banked on the idea that the Web was going to be the "only thing going" in the bright future....

I have heard your story before, and it proves to fall apart when the FULL light of motives, agendas, and jachs spin machine are realized.

I did a search on your name, you know, being the cynic I've become, I thought I'd check out what you might have that made Peny et. el so interested in you.

Are you the Brad Hill who has published a number of books about the internet and online investing?

Or, are you the Brad Hill who has an MLM site online : http://www.cuttingedgemedia.com/SSArchives/successHILL.asp
in which you tell a story of being in failed health and then being turned onto a health product and business that turned your life around?

Or, maybe neither, but just wondering.

Sorry, I guess it's just too hard for any of us to believe that the Con:Sinners ever actually had any friends that weren't in some way providing them with something they needed or wanted.

Now I'm dead curious, did these friendly visits involve one of Michaell's many MLM adventures?

>> I for one find your statements very difficult to believe.

I understand there's a great deal of hostility and suspicion on this board. Everything I've said is true from my perspective--and really, I didn't state anything very outrageous. I'll be glad to clear up any confusions, for what it's worth.

>> You state that you attended one seminar

I don't believe I stated that I attended "one" seminar. I don't have my original message in front of me, but I attended three or four seminars, I don't recall exactly.

>> then you state that you were never given any tapes etc. for free. I guess your definition of the word "guest" is different than mine.

I don't understand what you mean. Are tapes given away free at the seminars? If that's the case, I didn't take any. If you simply have trouble believing that they didn't volunteer tapes when we were together socially ... ... they didn't.

>> When someone says they have had a reading it particularly peaks my interest, as I know that "strings" must be pulled to get a Bizzarus reading. The "pee-ons" such as myself were told that the waiting list streeeches from between 6 months to 3 years. go figure that math out, and then get back to me as to how you were never shown any special treatment.

I didn't say I wasn't shown any special treatment. Of course I was, with the free seminars. Perhaps I was with the phone reading, too--I have no idea. I requested a reading, and was given a future date. I think it was shorter than six months away. If the waiting list was as long then as it is now, I suppose they gave me a favored spot.

My point in mentioning that they didn't give me tapes was not to say I didn't receive in-circle treatment. Of course I did. My point was that they didn't care what I believed or whether I was involved in Lazaris work. Or if they did care, it wasn't made apparent to me.

>> You sound to me like either a member of the media, or someone with whom it would be very important for Jach/ all, to appear in a positive light.

You can see exactly what I do for a living by visiting my Web site. I don't post under an alias or hide my activities in any way. I'm a book author, so am "in the media" to that extent. It is not important to me that C:S be portrayed in a positive light on this board generally, but I did feel impelled to respond to Katie's assertion that not a single positive anecdote had ever been put forth about Jach's personality. I had a good experience with him, and I posted it, pure and simple.

I hope your misquotes and sloppy reading of my message don't represent the quality of communication normally applied to controversies on this boasrd.

>> I have heard your story before, and it proves to fall apart when the FULL light of motives, agendas, and jachs spin machine are realized.

You've heard which story before? Stories of personal friendships with Jach, Peny, and Michaell? I certainly don't know how they talked about me in private or whether they had hidden motives. I meet a lot of people, and do business with a lot of people. My experience with C:S was positive in every regard, for whatever that's worth in light of the current inquiry.

Regards,
Brad

>> I did a search on your name, you know, being the cynic I've become, I thought I'd check out what you might have that made Peny et. el so interested in you.

No problem with the cynicism. I have so little traction in this whole controversy I really can't get hurt feelings. Just thought I'd contribute two cents. Thanks for your open-minded responses.

>> Are you the Brad Hill who has published a number of books about the internet and online investing?

Yes, that's me. My Web site is--

http://www.bradhill.com

>> Or, are you the Brad Hill who has an MLM site online :

No, that's not me. I understand from this board that Michaell was involved in some kind of MLM venture that folks here disrespect, but I knew nothing about it when I was involved with C:S, and in fact knew nothing about it *until* I read it here.

>> in which you tell a story of being in failed health and then being turned onto a health product and business that turned your life around?

Yikes, that does sound like what I posted, but it's not me! I'll visit the site later when I have some time. For now, please believe that my story is true exactly as I tell it. To be specific, Michaell recommended I drop my total vegan vegetarianism, and also directed me to doctors who used the Bates approach to recognizing hypo-thyroidism. That's about it--Michaell never mentioned anything about a product he was selling, and believe me, he had every opportunity to.

>> Sorry, I guess it's just too hard for any of us to believe that the Con:Sinners ever actually had any friends that weren't in some way providing them with something they needed or wanted.

Well, we were in business together, and I was running a forum that housed their online community. I'm not shying away from saying there was a business aspect to our relationship. But I live a freelance life, and am accustomed to mixing business and friendship to one degree or another. They were good business associates and good friends.

>> Now I'm dead curious, did these friendly visits involve one of Michaell's many MLM adventures?

Nope, honestly, I knew nothing about that. I *still* know nothing about it besides the references I've seen in these threads. I look forward to reading here more thoroughly, but it'll take time.

Best,
Brad

This might the last post I'll have time for before Monday, so if other questions arise (though I'm not sure my experience is worth all this investigation) please don't think I'm avoiding making a response.

>> I understand that there were controversies about the management of the Compuserve site. It's been suggested here that Peny's inability to have enough control on Compuserve is what inspired her to manage her own site. Do you have any details about that?

I'm certainly the right person to ask. Yes, control was part of it, though there's nothing negative about the need for greater control, per se, in my way of seeing things. Peny and Jach, once bitten by the online bug (which happened in my Forum), developed strong views on how they wanted to manage their community. Of course, they were stuck in somebody else's house, in effect, forced to accommodate to our rules which governed a gigantic online community that covered many other personalities and subjects than the Lazaris work. They were one section of a large and varied virtual site, and they outgrew it.

Control issues became difficult at times, as they sometimes do during any collaboration. Peny and Jach came close to leaving several times, and decided not to for various reasons, business and personal. Eventually it became clear to all of use (Peny, Jach, me and my partners) that they belonged on the Web in their own domain, and they struck out with our blessing, amicably. Remember, this was during a time when *everyone* with any kind of online product was establishing homes on the new WWW. I would have done the same thing if I were in C:S's shoes, and I encouraged Jach and Peny to become independent.

I get the feeling when you say "control" you mean something bullying or negative. I'm not sugar-coating what happened, and I remember it quite well. It was a business decision that we all agreed with.

Welcome to the site. Please excuse all of our skepticism and cynicism. In the end they have proven a useful tool in a battle where information is very difficult to come by.

The skeptical part of me read your post in one of two ways. The first was that you were not who you said you were. We know of cases where CS people, masquerade as others on forums. We even know of an instance where Peny had a conversation with two of her alter-egos on some board. The other way of reading your post was that you were viewed as a person for whom it was in their best interest to keep happy. We know of others in the same situation. Peny would bend over backwards to help some people. Jach and Michaell would generally dutifully follow her lead. Over the years however, such relationships usually soured.

Assuming your story is true, it changes the big picture in no way. At times, we get too involved in situations such as the statements about Jach which you are refuting as a mechanism of blowing off a huge amount of steam we have built up over the years. However, such statements are not intended as support to the major conclusion that Lazaris is not what he claims he is.

I invite you to read all of the site. By the way, we are all quite aware of how we do not post perfectly at times. That subject has been beat to death by many, including myself. In a perfect world, we would all do a better job.

Have fun reading and thanks for sharing your story.

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I hope your misquotes and sloppy reading of my message don't represent the quality of communication normally applied to controversies on this boasrd.

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We all resort to skimmimg posts at times. But IMO, the posts, or at least the sections of posts that we choose to respond to deserve the respect of a thorough reading.

For the record, C:S gave/gives complementary tickets for events to lots of people who do business with them. When I sold tapes and Visionary Publishing products through a couple stores I used to own, I was given two tickets to a weekend event every year. I know of people who did business with Isis Rising who received complementary tickets. The point of these freebies is to put business associates in a better postion to promote their products. Common business practice.

C:S made the area of consultations into a sticky issue. Some people requested readings and never got on the list. Some were on the list, but had a long wait. A few seem to have been given highly preferential treatment and slipped into the packed schedule at short notice.

The worst of this is that people would question their own spiritual worth if they didn't get an appointment and someone else they knew did. No way to run a business, let alone an alleged spiritual practice.

Jade

Well, you have finally "pulled me out" of lurker mode. I started visiting this forum and reading messages several months ago after I heard from a friend that Penny had died. I want to start by saying that I'm no friend of Jach et al. I'll explain why later.

The reason I'm writing is to vouch for Brad Hill. Now, you don't know me and have no reason to believe me, but I was on CompuServe for over 12 years and spent quite a bit of time on the CIS NewAge Forum (NAF). Brad was a SysOp, and I helped out on the Seth section occasionally. In those days we had Richard Bach, a Seth section, a couple of Wiccan sections and many other “sections” within the NAF (38 in all??). The Lazaris section was one of many.

Brad had always been, in my opinion, fair, honest, and above-board. He and the other SysOps made sure that everyone’s views were respected and allowed free rein. We had NO flames back then. They weren’t allowed. The whole idea was that you could express yourself freely on a range of subjects without risk. It was a great site while it existed. Maybe it’s still there in some form.

Anyway, I know of several people that Jach and Penny befriended. One friend of mine was lent money by Penny and flown to Palm Beach. Another friend (also a woman) was involved with Jach and swore that he was sincere. This second woman was the one who came up with the idea for “Some Time with Jach” so that people could get to know him apart from the Lazaris persona. She was never given credit for her ideas; they were just co-opted by Concept Synergy. Anyway…I know for a fact that they treated several NAF people very well.

I was, initially, one of them. Penny approached me on the Forum and introduced herself. She said she had heard of me and she started “paging” me when were were both on-line (an early form of real-time messaging, similar to AOL’s famous instant messaging). She introduced me to Jach and Michaell, and I had a few phone conversations with Jach in which we talked about football, which pizzas to order for dinner, and other mundane matters. Penny said that Jach had few male friends he could just talk with.

Anyway, things were actually going pretty well for a couple on months. Back then I had a little email discussion circle going in which we would write our thoughts about various metaphysical topics and attempt to critically analyze some concepts. Jach joined this email circle. The first few times that Jach responded he provided some insightful ideas about Karma and political manipulation in India, as well as expounding on other ideas. None of this had any “Lazaris content”. Everything was great; until I made what I later recognized to be a critical mistake. The only thing I knew about Lazaris’ teachings was a one-page article I had read in a new age journal about “The Bridge of Belief”. I asked Jach why he had invoked the name “Lemuria” as a real place when the concept had a fairly recent history, being named by a fellow in the mid 1800s as his idea of a former mythical society. Well, Jach went nuts and sent me a blistering response questioning my motives, my mindset, and saying, “I was on the wrong path”.

Obviously, my feelings were hurt, as I had asked the question in all honesty and without any preconceived notions. But I saw, from his response, that he was getting deeply defensive about my questioning his metaphysical assertions. So, I broke off contact and watched from a distance as I tried to sort out what was going on. Keep in mind, NAF gave people the benefit of the doubt and we always assumed good motives. It had worked well until Jach and Penny came along.

Brad wrote that Jach and Penny left “for business reasons”. From Brad’s perspective, I could see that as his viewpoint. After all, he managed a lot of sections, thousands of messages per day, and a pretty good little on-line business (along with Neil, the forum owner). But I saw it a little differently. While the Richard Bach section displayed creativity and some incredibly well written responses from Bach (the man is a very gifted writer, and he is better one-on-one than you would ever imagine from his popular books), the Lazaris section immediately filled with sycophants. When some of us tried to join in discussions there we were rebuffed by a swarming of “the true believers”. Flames became commonplace in the Lazaris section – something no one had seen before (there were occasional flames by “newbies”, but they never lasted). I know dozens of people who were put off by the tone, defensiveness, and cult-like behavior within the J&L section (it was called the Jach and Lazaris section of the NAF).

After four or five of these rows, people started to question whether Lazaris belonged on CompuServe. It was clear to us that they were a contentious force opposed to any other ideas. While THEY probably saw leaving as a smart business move (it was – why give it away if you can charge for it?), we common CIS subscribers saw it as a control and manipulation issue. In light of my own dealings with Jach, I knew that we were witnessing cult behavior. I became less and less involved in NAF over time, and the J&L section had a lot to do with my decision to drop out after more than a decade.

Anyway, Brad…it’s been what…7 years? I hope you are well and your businesses are prospering. I often think that it’s too bad that the Internet doesn’t have the civility of the NAF. I am not fond of flames, and there is still room for courtesy in on-line discourse.

Regards,

Brad I can see where you are coming from. I have a friend who was given the special in-circle treatment because of her business dealings with CS. They have always treated her very well and if it weren't for my terrible experience in the Forum she would have had no reason to think poorly of them. (She does not participate on the Forum)

George you wrote,

"Well, Jach went nuts and sent me a blistering response questioning my motives, my mindset, and saying, "I was on the wrong path".
Obviously, my feelings were hurt, as I had asked the question in all honesty and without any preconceived notions."

Your story reflects my own. Everything was going along fine and then… BANG. Never in my wildest dreams did I expect the response I received from Jach and Peny to what I considered to be a very honest and sincere post. I did not in anyway mean to offend them.

Thank you both for posting,

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I asked Jach why he had invoked the name “Lemuria” as a real place when the concept had a fairly recent history, being named by a fellow in the mid 1800s as his idea of a former mythical society. Well, Jach went nuts and sent me a blistering response questioning my motives, my mindset, and saying, “I was on the wrong path”.

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In 1987, I paid Jach Purcel the sum of *$1,000.00* -- to attend a WEEKLONG "Intensive" entitled: Realizing Lemuria.

+Sound Of *Very* -- Very Large Thermonuclear Weapon Exloding+

Thank you SO VERY MUCH for sharing that -- George.

Exactly *which* 19th century author named his fantasy utopia "Lemuria"?

The Cosmicfool is a new age consumer advocacy devil -- and we just LUUUVES! those absolutely inescapable, hard little legal details.

Steve

I had a few more questions to ask, but George has already spoken to some of them vis a vis the horrendous controlling behavior that went on in the Compuserve forum. I was wondering if you were aware of that, or that we have had several other accounts told here similar to George's, in which people who expressed a thought not in line with the Lazaris materials were "flamed" or thrashed so badly that they literally had to withdraw to lick their wounds.

Also, I can't help but be curious about the nature of the business you were involved in with our pals. Do you mind sharing?

I wonder also if you've read the cult tactics information that we've posted about here, which explains the reasons that some people come away feeling very "loved" by this group.

We all know from personal experience that Jach and Peny know the value of playing the "love bomb" game, IMO it is an integral part of the "Lazaris" cult scam. Why would business associates cultivate a feeling of "love" I wonder? Wouldn't it be enough just to have appropriate adult interactions that aren't all tied up in emotions?

I really appreciate your communicativeness, that is a big first here, usually people come in and give us a big lecture about how wonderful the Gang is, or how fucked up we all are, and then disappear or just get intensely defensive. It's refreshing to be able to dialogue back and forth and have questions answered.

Katie

Welcome!

I knew we'd nab you sooner or later! I'm just kidding, I didn't know you were there. We have lots and lots of lurkers, I must admit to wondering about what is on their minds, so it's great to hear from one of you!

Your experience with Jach and Peny is very characteristic of many others we've heard and personally experienced. It's amazing how Jach can turn on a dime from being this cuddly teddy-bear of a guy into being a really ugly angry punishing person. Jach clearly cannot handle being questioned or disagreed with on any level. He's no better at it than Peny was. The Universe became a more dangerous place on the day those two got together, IMO.

Cripes, all you asked about was Lemuria for Chrissake! This is just so characteristic of Jach to go ballistic about someone having a thought that might contradict his "entity".
You have to be able to see the controlling fear that is behind that. Jach/Lazaris must remain the ultimate authority on all things, lest even more questions begin to surface. Better to just quickly train people in the great art of not thinking. It's just pure cult behavior, no question about it. I'm gratified to hear that you didn't succumb and do the usual self recrimination dance as a way to remain in the good graces and "love" of those manipulators.

I'm interested to see how Brad will respond to your recollections of the Compuserve days.
Given the number of testimonials we've heard here about the rampant abuses on that Forum, it's hard for me to fathom that he somehow missed all that.

We have also heard that a lot of the controversy stemmed from people who had been burned by Tradevest. Do you have any recollection of that?

I've often wondered if archives exist from that Forum. Do you know?

Thanks so much for writing and sharing your experiences. I'm sorry to know of another person who got caught in that "loving web of deceit and abuse".

Katie

Jeez.

I recall the time Jachass told me that John Denver's organization was: "obviously egotistical" -- because we chose not to have Lazaris as a presenter at one of our summer syposia. The presenter selection comittie in Aspen told me: "Thanks, but we really don't need THAT kind of help. And we don't want to present *that* kind of image to the world." Hell yes -- I see that NOW.

Turn on a dime indeed. Fucker.

All this talk about Peny's love bombing is really causing me to question my sense of missing her now.

I'm asking myself: Am I missing a real person -- or just that gratis weekend and "1 week notice" Jachzaris private consultation 'Huggies' (where's that loose, wet diaper turd icon, Audrey? )she "granted" me -- knowing my connections in what she IMO saw as her 'Hollywood whore house'?

Steve

Humans are such complex beings. I'm sure that Peny wasn't 100% a bad person, but her mission in life was 100% evil, IMO. To me the highest crime a person can commit is invading their souls.

Peny knew that she wasn't any powerful magician, I think she really WANTED to believe she was though. Fine if she had kept that wee little bit of Lazarian flattery to herself, but instead she chose to lord it over others.

I don't even necessarily begrudge her the money, we all had the choice to pay up or not. On the other hand, I begrudge her the money because she used it as a club and a huge "better than". But, that was our Peny's biggest deal in life, being better than everyone else. Hell, she didn't even confine herself to the present and the planet, in her version of herself she was the mighty mighty throughout history and the universe. Talk about a sick puppy!

Ted and I had a few seminars gifted to us too, when I was purchasing the tapes for the store I managed. In my case, I knew I was being bribed, but I thought I was doing a wonderful service to my customers by bringing those tapes in. That is one HUGE regret of my life, and yet another indication of how fucked up it is to be in a cult. I spent other people's money on products that ended up collecting dust in the basement. I wish I could find a way to make amends for that one.

Maybe just putting out all this information will serve to prevent others from making the same kind of mistakes.

As unthinking and mind poisoned as I was -- the more Con:Scam profound behavioral sewage I expose in here -- the better I feel.

Steve

I haven’t read (or thought about) this stuff for a long time, so I went to my library. Here is one quote lifted from an encyclopedia:

“Lemuria – Legendary lost continent of the Indian Ocean said to be the original Garden of Eden and the cradle of the human race. The theory of the existence of Lemuria arose in the nineteenth century, when scientists sought to explain Darwin’s theory of evolution of similar species from a common ancestor. Phillip Sclater, an English zoologist, suggested that a land bridge once existed during the Eocene Age from the Malay Archipelago to the south coast of Asia and Madagascar, thus connecting India to southern Africa. The theory explained why animals such as the lemur were found primarily on Madagascar and in parts of Africa, but also in India and the Malay Archipelago. Sclater coined the name ‘Lemuria’ after the lemur.”

This concept was later co-opted by Blavatsky and the Theosophists as well as Rudolf Steiner to explain “lost races of superior former civilizations”. A lot of this sort of thing was going on in the late 1800s (the last “New Age”). In 1870, Colonel James Churchward, another Brit and former Bengal Lancer, said he had discovered “Mu” from stone tablets hidden in India that had been revealed to him by a Hindu priest.

There is little in the New Age movement of the 1980s that doesn’t have its origin in the Theosophist movement of the late nineteenth century.

Katie – I never heard of Tradevest until I came to your forum. I know nothing about it.

Lastly, if you folks really want to have fun, try pinning down the chronology that Jach and Concept Synergy promote for the “emergence” of Lazaris. I never bought into it because it didn’t track.

For instance, I’ve heard several Lazaris followers claim that Seth (Jane Roberts) had recommended Lazaris to her followers at the end of her life. This is a complete fabrication. Jane died in 1984 after a protracted illness. Her husband, Rob Butts made a written record of everything they had heard from Seth since his “appearance” in 1963. While many things were deleted as a prelude to publication of the books, the “deleted material”, much of which contained very personal data, was preserved. I’ve had a chance to read all 23 three-ring binders that contain the deleted material and there is no mention of Jach or Lazaris. This information, along with everything in Jane and Rob’s lives, down to their utility bills, in preserved in the Yale archives. Jane and Rob were big about full disclosure and letting people make up their own minds as to the legitimacy of the material.

The only people mentioned in the deleted material were folks like Richard Bach, there was extensive discussion of a New York guru that many of Jane’s students had previously consulted, and there many other names that popped up. None were “channeled entities”.

Jach claims to have started channeling Lazaris in 1974. Let’s see, he’s about 55-56 years old now, so he would have been about 28-29 years old at the time. Yet, he went to college in Michigan, and was working as a regional supervisor in Florida for State Farm insurance at age 27.

While what follows is definitely hearsay, it does make one wonder. I have a friend who claims she first met Jach at a channeling class led by Sanaya Roman in the early 1980s in San Francisco. Peny told me that Michaell had turned them on to the Silva method and NLP, and another friend told me that, in private, Jach and Peny were into the Crowley stuff, the Ordo Templi Orientis crap. Nevertheless, there appears to be a distinct problem with sequence of events. Jach didn’t publish a book until 1987, and most people hadn’t heard of him before the mid-1980s. I personally think that they moved the clock back quite a few years to overlap the “Seth period” in order to claim credibility in the New Age community.

Try finding anything substantive about Lazaris prior to about 1983. I think, like many people who want to establish credibility, that Jach and Peny “reinvented” their past in order to chronologically support the claims that they had to make in the 1980s as their audience broadened and they became public figures.

Regards,

A hearty welcome to the site!

You raise an intriguing question about Jach's chronology. I hope our fellow posters (and lurkers) freely give any supporting or contradicting information about the time frame. I was not involved until the late 80s.

You said: I have a friend who claims she first met Jach at a channeling class led by Sanaya Roman in the early 1980s in San Francisco.

This is most interesting! Do you still have contact with this friend? It would be wonderful to find out more about this, such as what her impression was as to why Jach was at the class. It would be great if she could make a guest appearance on this board.

In addition to providing helpful background information, you raise a lot of very interesting questions and certainly seem to have done a lot of research and questioning.

Cheers, Craig

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I spent other people's money on
products that ended up collecting dust in the basement.

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Well, I spent my own money on products that ended up collecting dust -- except for those pretty new age notecards.

I wonder what year that Gallery opened (I know it closed a couple of years later). I'm sure I'm not the only "seeker" who got snagged there. By 1986, Peny had managed to get many of the best New Age artists, jewelers, etc. to consign their work there. Any idea how? --maybe because the gallery was big and beautiful.

Good old Lemuria -- yeah, busted my time schedule to attend the initial five day seminar. How 'bout all those crystal cities folks
Good way for purveyors of crystals to sell more "Lemurian androgynous Grandma-Grandpa healing dream keepers and scary skulls

Turns out they should have been selling .... lemurs, with a few Atlantean gerbils and hamstahs and rats thrown in for variety.

Ummmm NLP, we spent some time here speculating on the possibility that J/L was using it to work his mad magic. And we had heard about the Silva Mind Control.

Oh yes. Madame Blavatsky. Hitler took his cue for building a mythology of a superior Aryan race, originating in Atlantis, from her writings. Then we have "map makers" from Con Scam. Lovely.

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Try finding anything substantive about Lazaris prior to about 1983. I think, like many people who want to establish credibility, that Jach and Peny “reinvented” their past in order to chronologically support the claims that they had to make in the 1980s as their audience broadened and they became public figures.

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Makes sense to me. Wish we had more information. Thanks very much for posting your information and insights.

Jade

P.S. And guinea pigs.

You wrote:

"Try finding anything substantive about Lazaris prior to about 1983. I think, like many people who want to establish credibility, that Jach and Peny “reinvented” their past in order to chronologically support the claims that they had to make in the 1980s as their audience broadened and they became public figures."

Interesting idea.

There are audiotapes (supposedly) made in the seventies that are currently unavailable from Con Sin--anyone lurking who had access to one of those tapes during that time period? (i.e., heard it in the seventies, not eight years later--some kind of proof that the tapes weren't created after the fact, in other words.)

Anyone lurking who actually attended one of the smaller group sessions Con Sin claims Lazaris held in the seventies?

Can anyone lurking verify that Lazaris' first "public" (not by invitation only) appearance was in '79?

(Asking the lurkers because I'm assuming this would have come up before now among the regulars, if one of us had information regarding this.)

Btw, I always found it odd that Con Sin dropped so many early tapes from their catalogue--given the "friends" enormous appetite for all things Lazarian, why remove products from your line-up?

flo