You asked:

quote:

---

Is Lazaris outside of the 'set' of humanity?

---

According to "Lazaris'" own definitions, we would not be able to communicate with them if they were in a different set. Also, according to Lazzy's "teachings", we create our own reality completely. If so, we can choose what is part of our set and which we are part of at any given time. Sets would then present no barrier to our potential experience.

My belief is that Lazaris is 100% a creation of Jach's - a total fraud. Whether Jach has convinced himself of Lazaris legitimacy is another question. It also doesn't matter to me a great deal - other than curiosity - whether Lazaris is a seperate entity or whether they are from the "Higher Realms" or the "Lower Realms". What matters is that the impact of the whole phenomenom has been dreadful, IMO. At best, Lazaris is totally unnecessary. At worst, it is very destructive. (just my opinion, of course )

quote:

---

Is there any truth in the Lazaris material?

---

I think if there was no truth, we wouldn't have paid it much attention, would we? I mean, most of us are at least reasonably intelligent. I think there is sufficient truth as to get people hooked. Someone said, "The most dangerous lie is the one which most resembles the truth" (or something like that)

Though there is some truth - or at least factual and usable information - I feel that the very foundation is corrupt, and therefore the entire body of work is highly suspect. It's a cesspool with a few gold coins at the bottom. There are more elegant ways to get one's hands on some gold coins...

You asked:

quote:

---

Does spirituality exist at all or do we, as a humanity, need the notion of a comforting something outside ourselves?

---

Well that's quite a deep question. Scoundrels like Jach Purcel discredit the whole idea of Spirituality with their cynical usariness. It's despicable. Spirituality was alive and well long before Jach's phony orb routine, and it will continue to thrive long after. Peny told Katie that she was "throwing her spirituality out the window", because Katie had the temerity to question Peny. (This was in the Forum) She was banking on the fact that so many believe Lazaris to be synonomous with Spirituality. That she and the organization would perpetuate this belief is an outrage.

I'm not sure that I agree that the world is a more dangerous place for Dubya having won the election, but I don't want to get into a political debate. I will say that the world is a safer place for Peny having left.

I would say though that CS being in Florida had nothing to do with the election results, whether one is pleased or disappointed with those results. I don't think those fools can program their way out of a paper bag. The only "success" they've demonstrated is in their ability to manipulate and use people to get financially rich. They don't appear to be rich in any other context.

BTW, I noticed you're British. Katie and I just returned from a lovely 3 week holiday there. We stayed near Winchester - a most delightful town.

Well, anyway, I find your site of great interest so thanks.
Ali

Peny, Michaell and Jach "closet studied" Alaster Crowley -- far from our 'public eye'?!

Jesus Christ.

People, IMO -- the likelyhood that we are and have been dealing with a very dark, life force-sucking malevolent Jach Purcel just went up twenty fold.

Steve

If you have time sometime, could you give us a brief synopsis of what Aleister Crowley is all about? I skimmed http://www.otohq.org/oto/ which seems to be the official site of the Ordo Templi Orientis, but I didn't see anything interesting. But then, I don't have much patience to wade through long pages of boring text. I never heard of OTO or Crowley before George mentioned it.

Thanks!
Susan

Steve may have more to offer on Aleister Crowley but from my frame of reference, he is the High Priest of the neo-wicca movement where the beliefs of the old religions are perverted and contrived into some kind of amalgamation of the Christian mythologies about the old belief systems, and the actual systems themselves.

I believe that Crowley capitalized on the fear factor of the Christian propaganda that was used to demonize and eradicate the sacred beliefs of the Druidic tribes, pagans, nature worshippers, Wiccans, whatever name they are now given, out of which he devised his cult of fear and evil in the name of demon worship.

I have not studied Crowley, but his name and teachings have popped up throughout my investigations into the mystical. IMO he was a self-promoter and fraud of epic proportions.

Out of his sphere of influence came cult leaders like L.Ron Hubbard an ex-sci-fi writer turned Scientology cult leader.

Crowley, Blavatsky, North, Purr-Sell, DeGraffenreid and others recognized a good market when they saw one and rose to the occasion from my perspective.

Crowley capitalized on the very superstitious and devastating Christian propaganda that nature worship was in fact demon worship and himself played "devil" to a perverse but lucrative audience of misfits and weirdos.

Like most cults, you will find some truth and wisdom woven throughout, but my impression as a non-scholar on the topic is that Crowley was another cheap huckster who knew a good game when he saw one, and played it to the detriment of sincere practitioners of the ancient beliefs and arts.

Cheap theatre on the back of sacred beliefs. Sound familiar?

I guess I'm not alone in my perspective. Check out http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1896/summonAC.html in which we discover "How To Summon Ye Dæmon Aleister Crowley To Visible Appearance" Very hysterical, highly recommended, and hopefully clairvoyant on the future kudos to one Jachass Purr-Sell.

Katie

I edited your post to correct the link. You placed a comma after the URL and the software included that in the link. The URL needs to be followed by a space. Not correct English, perhaps, but correct HTML

And thank you, Katie, for the analysis of Crowley and the ceremonial rite to summon Ye Dæmon Crowley! The final incantation made me go from smile to belly laugh, the laugh being egged on by the hoo-hahs. (I loved the hoo-hahs!)

Well. I don't know what to say about Crowley. I understand Steve's comments a little better now, tho. And you've given me enough information to know that I'm not going to spend time studying him. Is there any reason to, other than for some tips on marketing and promoting some sick doctrine?

I think I'm going to try and find my hoo-hahs. I think they're in a drawer in my bedroom. They may have something to say about all this.

Glad you liked the link. I think it's so damned funny that I'm paraphrasing some of it as an invocation for Peny.

The appointed Priest reads each sentence aloud, and the Celebrants repeat
it after him.

"I invocate and conjure thee, o ye blasphemous toad Peny and Michaell Norht!
Long have ye taunted us from beyond the grave, meddling with the brains
of acid messiahs and politicians, smirking at us from behind your silly Atlantinean hats! I command you to appear before us now, if you're the great
magician they say you are! Being armed with the power of beer and
cigarettes I command it!!!"

(pause for a minute)
"O worm-eaten necromancers, hear me. A sadistic game you have played with
your disciples long enough. You lure the curious down halls of Peny North statues and altars at every turn, only to lead the
travellers to a mirror at the end of the path, and they realize their god
was themselves all the time. BUT BY THAT TIME THEY'VE BOUGHT ALL YOUR BOOKS, TAPES AND SEMINARS!!. Thou art slick advertisers selling bottled air."

"I invoke you by your names: To Mega Therion! Perdurabo! Baphomet! The
Beast 666! Fo-Hi! Count Alexander Svareff! Chiao Khan! Alys! etc. Come
thou forthwith, without delay, from any and all parts of the world thou
mayest be, and make rational answers unto all things that we shall demand
of thee, for thou art conjured up by the name of the living and true god
Xerox!"

Hey Susan, we're always glad to share a belly laugh. Definitely pull out those hoo has.

All the rest of you readers, do check out that link, it's hysterical and a treat for the soul of a cult buster.

Katie

My experience is -- unfortunately a bit more close-in to the Crowley tradition.

My dead friend Jim was his absolute physical spit match, had the same kind of "church" set-up and made both Bobbi and my left hands burn as if on fire -- once at a distance of about five miles.

Black Magick is real -- as are behaviorally evil non-physical entities.

VAT? You don't believe in behaviorally evil PHYSICAL entities, either binkypoo?!

Yep.

incarnate life..

quote:

---

VAT? You don't believe in behaviorally evil PHYSICAL entities, either binkypoo?!

---

Au contraire, I most certainly do believe in evil physical entities. I think Crowley was one of those, and I feel certain that he did conjure up a lot of foul energy.

I very much include Jach Purr-Sell on my short list of evil incarnates.

I think people have as much power as we give them. Those who convince others of their evil powers will be as successful as Jach Purr-Sell at causing all kinds of mystical occurences.

BTW, the heated palms phenomena has been used as a demonstration in mind over matter experiments. It's a good trick known by not a few trickster dazzlers.

In thinking about this topic I did a search for information on Jayne Mansfield's death, because I had read years ago that Anton La Vey,the founder of the Church of Satan had fought with Jayne and told her she would die of decapitation. The rumor is that she lost her head in a car accident about a year later, but some claim that to be a falsehood.

At any rate, I found an article about LaVey that I find to be interesting.

quote:

---

Depending on whom you talk to, or what you read, he was in equal parts, a visionary, con man, crook, genius, creator, abuser, originator and plagiariser.

---

Yet, the author goes on to say

quote:

---

A lot of what I read was initially disappointing to me, a few misconceptions were pointed out and a few illusions were knocked, if not quite shattered. It was then that I came to the realisation that none of it actually mattered. The Satanic Bible stands as a solid work of satanic philosophy whether by accident or by design. Lavey could have been all the things that he is accused of and it still wouldn't matter

---

Sound familiar?

http://www.satanism-uk.com/essay7.htm

Katie

With some difficulty I have entertained the possibility that Lazaris is a malevolent entity (the idea was a jolt when I first heard it!). I can understand someone wanting to know something about Crowley, as I can understand someone wanting to know something about Hitler or Osama bin Laden. We don't know for sure that they studied Crowley, do we? Lavey sounds like he's right up Jach's alley. On the other hand, a mere mortal being well-informed in all areas of the occult might come in handy for purposes of discussion or defense, or perhaps in re-enacting ancient rites and rituals at celebrations such as a Millenium.

Every piece of this saga is better than any Saturday matinee Flash Gordon cliffhanger ever. Thanks Katie, Steve, and Pete!

quote:

---

Katie: "I invocate and conjure thee, o ye blasphemous toad Peny and Michaell Norht!" [...the invocation continues, three messages up from here]

---

God you're funny. And I love that spelling -- Norht. It goes lovely with the two first names and is perfect for a toad! Norht...norht...norht...

I like to think of Crowley as I do good-hearted Berkeleyhead liberals.

They mean well -- but they aim to ass-whipe *and socially castrate* the whole stepped-upon world (Vs. "teach'um to fish").

So did Hitler, Saddam.

And you don't just attract *incarnate* toxic rage-feeders (Bin Laden, et al) when you play: El Presidente Asswhipo Major.

The most chilling idea I've heard of late vis. this "Lazaris" is as follows:

Of all the deceptive masks of evil, spiritual virtue is *by far* the most dangerous.

Happy Halloween

Steve

Thought I would pop this one up because the question has come up again in the Wondering Aloud thread, is Lazaris an evil entity? This thread's topic indicates a discussion of that subject but the question was sidestepped. I thought it would be good to look at it directly.

What is meant by evil? If L is a fraud, as most here would agree, does that make him evil? It does give him an ulterior motive. But I would draw a distinction between mere thievery and evil. One is interested solely in a material objective, the other emotional control for a malevolent purpose. Katie has stated many times how L has manipulated us emotionally. Was that an attempt to control or merely create dependence? What was the purpose if there was an attempt to control?

I have my own thoughts and would be happy to share if others are interested in taking a look.

"It does give him an ulterior motive. But I would draw a distinction between mere thievery and evil. One is interested solely in a material objective, the other emotional control for a malevolent purpose. Katie has stated many times how L has manipulated us emotionally. Was that an attempt to control or merely create dependence? What was the purpose if there was an attempt to control?
"

If Lazaris is a part of Jach, or Jach doing Lazaris, then of course it's pretty easy to see that money, attention, and power are prime motives. I've always wondered about the "20 questions with Jach" time. What's up with that? Why isn't it "20 questions with Lazaris", as it should be? Who cares what Jach has to think unless you are a friend of his? I never could figure this one out, but of course did not dare ask as I waited eternally for the Lazaris meditation online to begin. Unless Jach is wanting a little credit for his creation in a way that doesn't reveal it. And why does Jach write the fliers and not Lazaris? Again, perhaps a little credit without revealing the scam?

However, if we pose the hypothesis that Lazaris IS a conscious entity not of Earth, then money gain motive goes out the window. That leaves us with either a genuine love for humankind and a desire to help them in a world that he says isn't even real, or a desire for attention and power and draining money away from others to create a dependency. There's one hell of a lot of psychic energy in those workshop rooms and directed in the tapes. Is it possible that Earth was easy pickings for an entity who knows how to easily dupe us?

A person once asked me about my relationship to Lazaris, and of course it was in glowing terms and about the love, learning about creating my own reality, etc. When I finished, they told me I would never know spiritual freedom as long as I was afraid of risking and losing my relationship with Lazaris. It totally threw me. I realized how dependent I was on the tapes, on the workshops, on my "inside connection" to god/goddess/all-that/is. I knew I was indeed very afraid of losing that relationship. And I realized that I felt a little superior to most people because of this relationship to Lazaris, even though I also felt loads of compassion and actively worked for healing of others.

So: what is the motivation of an "antichrist", so to speak? Perhaps to divert our energy and actions towards him rather than towards god and goddess. To create their own domain of power that is without the god and goddess towards which they may be jealous or angry. And how easy to do this by appearing to be the very light and good for which we all thirst. The results can be seen by the lives of those with the most direct contact with him- untimely death and suicide.

We can find examples in many areas of life where a person sets themselves up as an authority and spiritual master without it being about the money, but for the ego gratification and sense of power. Isn't it possible this goes on in other realms by entities far more masterful than a human at it?

I roughly calculated out how much money I've "gladly" spent on seminars and tapes, and was shocked. Then asked myself if I had any other friend anywhere who REQUIRED me to spend money in order to be with them. And who gave control of the access to them to another person who may not be a friend at all and in fact manipulative. And if God/ess really would set it up for me this way.

What do you think?

By asking this, have I chosen the mediocrity? Am I in negative ego? Has my dark law got the better of me? Is my child throwing a fit and controlling my reality? Am I rejecting the love 'freely' offered by Lazaris? Will I be back for many more lifetimes and am throwing away my spirituality? Is god/goddess/all-that-is weeping for my soul if I question the existence of Lazaris?

Wonderingallowed

I forgot to include in my previous post (can you edit these after posting?) about a big warning bell I got, around the Millennium celebration in particular, but others as well. Jach mentioned online that he wasn't going to pretend that we didn't miss an opportunity of a lifetime if we weren't there. And I've heard him, and Lazaris, talk of certain workshops in ways that set up the fear in me that if I wasn't there, I wasn't going to get "it".

I've learned that this is a reliable indicator of something not quite right. Usually if a salesman tries this on me, I immediately stop negotiations and walk away, usually with them trailing after me offering an even better deal than they said they could ever offer. It disturbed me a great deal to hear this going on with the workshops.

Did any of you take the time you didn't really have or spend money you didn't have to go to workshops out of a sense you would miss something or out of fear because of anything Jach or Lazaris said? I'm not talking self generating it, but stimulated by comments made by Jach or Lazaris?

Love the name.!

in answer to the ? about if any of us spent $ or time out of a thought that we'd miss something...UH...YEEAAAHHHHH...!
I think you'll get this from many here.

-and just like sleazy salespeople, jach learned his trade well.

You couldn't listen to any tape as far as I recall in recnet years without hearing a "plug" for another "issue" or another great "meditation" on yet another tape up for sale...

That REALLY started to bug me AND ring Manipulation- bells in my head.

Many here have gone on and on about the sleazy techniques that bothered us, and pointed very directly to covert methods to get followers to stock up on tapes, and attend as many seminars as possible.

Arthurian legends.! give me a break,,,,
the overpriced crystals(or any crystals at all..sheesh- I recall buying a tape on happiness, and the entire end of the tape was about these different crystals to use.for variuos FORMS of happiness.or lack thereof. I didn't give a shit about crystals, and here was all this stuff about if you REALLY wanted to experience true-deep happiness--and you-know, buy Con;sin's cuz these are SPECIAL--why buy just any old crystal--in fact, I'm not positive, but I think bizzarus would purposefully mention very rare difficult-to-find crystals that most would'nt know where to buy --OH....don't get me started...

Katie has quite the rave about the "MAJIK" of this and that, all inexorably linked together,,,
-it's posited by the orb--that one cannot fully experience the MAJIK of the universe without "handling" all the multi-colored varieties that bizzarus has now enlightened us about...

I am very familiar with the feeling of somehow missing out on intensives etc. I used to feel that my inability to get to more intensives meant that I wasn't 'spiritually evolved' enough, that I had all kinds of blockages, work, issues blah blah blah to do. Conversely, when I did get to workshops I used to feel that somehow I had created some 'magic'. What I had actually created was giant credit card debt and I am now bankrupt.

On the question 'Does evil exist and if it does what is it?' I am very interested in this. I have tended to dismiss the concept of evil as catholic guilt trying to screw up my life, but when I look at the world I am not so sure.

I heard in a film once (I can't remember which) that the greatest trick the devil ever played was to convince us he didn't exist (or words to that effect). I don't know. Marianne Williamson (who usually makes me want to puke with her trite, saccharine crap and born again christianity masquerading as spirituality) did say something interesting about the devil (again I'm paraphrasing): the devil only exists in your head, to which she said 'that's the worst possible place he could be'.

In my mind I kind of converted these concepts to the concept of 'negative ego' with which we are all so familiar. I refuse to do this any more. I no longer live my life looking to clear up my never ending defects and reasons why my life isn't full of magic and miracles with the next tape, book, seminar. I have found this to be incredibly freeing. Life isn't perfect and that's OK.

What could a non physical entity get out of screwing humans up? Perhaps it's to do with energy. I don't know. I just don't know.

Some old nun of mine once said that hell is the complete ignorance of God. I always kind of liked that definition, even though my thoughts on God might vary from hers.

Here's another "equation" I like to ponder.

If God/heaven=good and Satan/hell=evil and the nun's definition is correct, then an act of evil could be defined as anything that obscures our ability to know "God" or The Divine.

In my equation here, Jackass/Bizzaris is the epitomy of evil, along with all others who superimpose themselves between us and God/heaven/good.

Likewise, for individuals who choose to deny their own ability to connect to God/heaven/Good, or try to discourage or stop others.

As long as we continue to include these diversive beliefs and tactics as any kind of spirituality I think we are on a very dark path leading nowhere if we're lucky, and straight to hell if we take the "wrong" forks in the road.

Welcome to the site, I've enjoyed your posts and comments.

You asked -
"Did any of you take the time you didn't really have or spend money you didn't have to go to workshops out of a sense you would miss something or out of fear because of anything Jach or Lazaris said? I'm not talking self generating it, but stimulated by comments made by Jach or Lazaris?"

Well, yes. I recall when I saw the flyer for the first Aurthurian legends seminar, there was a statement about how this was the "only" current that could take us all the way home. Alarm bells went off within. This was so contrary to my spiritual beliefs that it really raised my doubts even more than they already were. I went though. What a bunch of tripe. As I was sitting there I noticed that the woman sitting next to me had the said flyer and she had that sentence highlighted. It felt like such a manipulation. I don't know why, that one just stood out to me more.

Also, I used to belong to a lazaris material centered therapy group where lots of members went to the seminars. Back in the 80s I was accumulating debt and going to these seminars wasn't helping. So I finally reached the point where I said I couldn't fly out to California for a particular seminar. Well the shit hit the fan. Why? Because it wouldn't have been financially responsible for me to go. But that answer just wasn't acceptable. I definitely felt like a second class spiritual citizen. And I felt there was a type of pressure to keep up, as if such a thing were possible. And keeping up with what? Who will be the most brainwashed? No thanks.

quote:

---

And I felt there was a type of pressure to keep up, as if such a thing were possible. And keeping up with what? Who will be the most brainwashed? No thanks.

---

That's a nugget!

Jade

quote:

---

In my equation here, Jackass/Bizzaris is the epitomy of evil, along with all others who superimpose themselves between us and God/heaven/good

---

Watched a TV show last night in which a priest was administering communion. To me this act is particularly offensive, a physical acting out of a "spiritual" authority dispensing connection with the Creator.

The crystal ceremony has a similar format. "Lazaris" is situated above his supplicants. Instead of the invasive parental "feeding," of wine and wafers, FOLs get invasive energy field healing/feeding and a spiritual suppliment in the form of a "special" crystal.

quote:

---

but I think bizzarus would purposefully mention very rare difficult-to-find crystals that most would'nt know where to buy --OH....don't get me started...

---

Remember the "Lemurian" cathedral crystals. Cathedral crystals are relatively uncommon quartz crystal formations. But guess who happened to have a seemingly unending supply of them, some quite $large$. And of course those were Lemurian Atlantean granny healers with an extensive "provenance" and oodles of beneficial energies. All of this corny info courtesy of "Lazais."

Fantastic posts! I appreciate the thoughtfulness that went into them.

First, if L is indeed J’s creation, the question of evil does become trivial. Like any guru, J would be on some power trip with a huge financial incentive to continue spinning it out. I think there would still be a question of whether there is any value in the material and whether that value is outweighed by the falsehood being perpetrated. Some people have definitely been helped by the material, the fact that J created an alter ego to present it does not make it worthless.

The question does become interesting when L is granted authenticity. Perhaps his motive could be the same as J’s, power over, adulation, creating dependence. Perhaps non-physical entities can get a “hit” in attracting the attention of physical beings like ourselves. Nevertheless, legitimate material has been offered. It is not like L has asked people to worship him merely because he is the magnificent L, the non-physical wonder from the higher planes. If you did not see value in the material, you probably would not have been so attracted to L. Worship of Jesus could be seen in the same light. He too claimed authority as being the son of God, in the same way L’s authority is staked on his origins. People do tend to worship the messenger rather than embody the message. So too, L.

Does L manipulate to create such worship? You mention one thing specifically having to do with this, touting seminars as the opportunity of a lifetime. Katie has mentioned love-bombing, the use of “we love you” phraseology to create emotional dependence. I myself have heard L say that there are no requirements to take any particular seminar, where you’re at is where you’re at and it’s the best place to begin. I don’t dispute what you have heard. Touting any particular seminar as “the opportunity” is creating fear and dependence. It would make me concerned if I heard it.

The love-bombing to me is more interesting because I have the tape, Feeling More of the Love, or whatever it was called, that was specifically directed at feeling L’s love. I really liked that tape when I heard it but I did wonder what it meant that he loves us but how am I supposed to know that in my everyday life? How does L interact with us to create a love that is actually real? Well, the truth is, he doesn’t (at least outside the seminars, which I’ll get to). We interact (or attempt to do so) and if we don’t get it, then something is wrong with us. I wound up shrugging this off back then, maybe because I’m not so in touch with that particular emotion even with physical beings! But now I think Katie was right, L manipulates big time with the love-bombing, at least on tapes.

I have been in seminars where L is interacting directly and when the exchange is over, the person has said how much they love L. And I have felt it too. The feeling was very palpable and not because of L professing love but from the way he interacted, loving was about the only way to describe it. And this was not an isolated incident, it happened many times.

What conclusions to draw from this? I think it can be read either way. Love-bombing is a technique that can create emotional dependence. L uses the technique on tapes. L in person does project loving concern and caring. I don’t think it’s reasonable to make a blanket statement that L is manipulating for a devious purpose. It may be that love can be experienced in a non-physical context, I’m sure many Christians would profess such a relationship with Jesus. You and I don’t have it with L. It doesn’t mean that something is wrong with us nor do I think it means something is wrong with L for holding it out as a possibility.

You bring up the issue of money. It’s a good one. Should L charge for seminars and tapes? A couple things to consider. People do put time and effort into setting up and running the seminars and creating and distributing the tapes. Should they be reimbursed? The question probably isn’t about fair reimbursement but fair value. Were you ripped off? I think only you can answer this question and as such, whether the charging of money is reasonable or not cannot be used as a blanket indictment of L. To some, it may certainly raise suspicions, for others, it may be cheap at any price. We all pretty much knew what we were getting buying a tape or seminar. At the time, it wasn’t a problem. That it may be a problem now speaks more to fact of other concerns of L’s legitimacy than directly to this one.

You raise the fact that L’s closet human associates had rather unseemly endings. Many people have come to bad ends, this does not necessarily mean the ideals they supported were corrupt. It does give one pause that all L’s teachings seem to come to naught in his foremost disciple. IMO, there is nothing defensible about either one of them. What reflects badly on L for me however is not how they wound up (which was probably appropriate given the understanding of the material they seemed to have) but the praise he lavished on them. What made them such jewels? Nobody seems to know. L does take on a fragrant odor here for which I have no explanation. This and the fact that he lied about the deaths is the foundation on which my questioning rests.

You pose sinister questions at the end of your first post, I believe as a reflection of how L or true L believers might view your inquisitive mind. I have no such judgements. L himself supports the thesis, antithesis, synthesis view of reality and we are practicing no less. There is nothing wrong with asking questions and seeking one’s own answers. L encouraged it. Those who would judge you for it miss the essence of the materials, which is a seeking and embodying of our own true spirituality.

My point here is not to dissuade you from any conclusions you may have come to own your own. They can indeed be true for you where someone else would have a hard time understanding. My own feeling is that L offers something of value while at the same time fostering a dependence in those so inclined. L is also not all he says he is and so must be looked at with a wary eye. I understand how the question of his true motive can arise. And while it’s certainly possible that it may be more suspect than one might think on first glance, real evil for me is not in evidence. I invite you to look through my reasoning in the same way I have looked through yours. While we do not have to agree, understanding of both sides I believe is well within our reach.

quote:

---

Originally posted by TedC:
Worship of Jesus could be seen in the same light. He too claimed authority as being the son of God, in the same way L’s authority is staked on his origins. People do tend to worship the messenger rather than embody the messageTedC

---

TedC,

Good post! I don't necessarily agree with the tentative conclusions you offer, but I do enjoy your reasoning.

As an aside, Jeshua or Joshua ben Joseph, (Jesus) never claimed in any directly attributable quote to be the son of god. That title was conferred after Paul (Saul) established what would become the Catholic faith. You have to remember that what became Christianity started out as a Jewish heresy. Jesus was in direct line of descent from David, and the expectations of the Jewish community for the descendants of David were altogether different than the requirements of a nascent religion that was structured to appeal to Gentiles (the lower classes, or "infidels" of that era).

My point here is to support yours in a way. It is the followers who confer the presumed authority, seldom the prophets. The prophets know that outrageous claims are unsupportable (or heretical), but followers are free to embrace the wonders of hyperbole.

Regards,

Sorry, Gents, I'm not buying the notion that Lazaris is a victim of his followers' (excuse me, "friends") projections. I don't really care whether anyone has projected onto Jesus. This isn't about Jesus, it's about the claims made by a voice which comes from Jach Pursel's mouth when he claims to be channeling "Lazaris".

Either Jach is channeling Lazaris or not - I believe not. If he's not, then this conversation is moot. If he is, then it is Lazaris who claims to: "be from the Higher Realms", "always tells the Truth", "never fails", "loves us forever and a day". These are Lazaris' words, not his followers', friends', supporters' or enemies'. These words came out of Lazaris' "radio".

It's Lazaris who suggests we call on them when we are in need, as opposed to calling on God. It's Lazaris who claims that we need the help of our Higher Selves and/or Unseen Friends to reach God. It's Lazaris who puts himself between us and God, us and our Spirituality, us and our success.

No doubt, some have projected all sorts of attributes onto Lazaris, but these attributes I mentioned above are out of their mouth, so to speak. These are the standards to which I think they should be held - their own.

The question of evil is not trivial whether or not Jach is faking. If he is, then I have no doubt that his actions are evil. Manipulation is evil, and manipulation of one's spirituality is extraordinarily evil. If he's not faking it, the question of whether Lazaris is evil is still paramount.

TedC says that there is value in the materials, ignoring the fact that almost everyone here has conceded that some of it is valuable. There is gross value, but is there net value? A gold coin in the bottom of a cesspool has gross value. It's net value is determined by it's gross value minus the negative value of retrieving it. If I get paid $100 per hour, but I'm taxed at $200 per hour, then the value of my work - to me - is -$100. Such is what we've been saying about the L materials. The gross value is more than offset by the negative value. We've spoken repeatedly about what that negative value is, so I won't repeat it again here.

TedC asks:

quote:

---

Does L manipulate to create such worship?

---

Absolutely! They claim that they will love us forever and a day, that they will love us regardless of our shortcomings. Many of us see these as ideals we want to strive for, but how many humans have accomplished this ability to love unconditionally and consistantly? Few, if any. Therefore, Lazaris is above us and our physical friends.
They claim to be from the Higher Realms. Oh, but then they disclaim saying there is no value judgment there. Then why say it? They claim to not be subject to "negative" emotions, even though they also claim that these emotions are not really negative. Why not feel them then?

So Lazaris is the only entity in our lives that we can fully trust - all other humans are subject to anger, lust, envy and the dreaded "negative ego". No manipulation there! They never fail. But they fail to get their point across to us lowly martyrs. They've fail to keep themselves free of negative criticism, as they claimed they were able to do. No, they never created this mystique about themselves - it was their followers projecting on them. They're not accountable for doodleysquat.

TedC wrote:

quote:

---

We all pretty much knew what we were getting buying a tape or
seminar.

---

No, we didn't. We thought we were getting the love and wisdom of a higher being. Almost everyone on this site, as well as the Lite Site, agree that they are not what they claimed. Some think Jach is a total fake, others think Lazaris is real, but maybe not so evolved after all. Either way, we didn't get what we paid for.

TedC wrote:

quote:

---

My own feeling is that L
offers something of value while at the same time fostering a dependence in those so inclined

---

So the question is, does the value outweigh the loss of power which comes with dependence? Real easy - NO! So maybe we can take the value and not become dependent. Yeah, and maybe we can smoke crack once in while without becoming dependent. For those who can, more power to you. But we all have a right to know what the risks are. Perhaps the Lazaris tapes should carry a warning like cigarettes. You have a right to use this product - and I agree one does have that right - but you also have the right to know what the risks are.

You said: TedC says that there is value in the materials, ignoring the fact that almost everyone here has conceded that some of it is valuable. There is gross value, but is there net value? A gold coin in the bottom of a cesspool has gross value. It's net value is determined by it's gross value minus the negative value of retrieving it. If I get paid $100 per hour, but I'm taxed at $200 per hour, then the value of my work - to me - is -$100. Such is what we've been saying about the L materials. The gross value is more than offset by the negative value.

The concept of net value is very interesting.

I would guess that most people here have easily spent over $10,000 on the material, not to mention travel costs. The amount of time devoted is likely one of the top time investments people have given in their lives. This includes not only the time listening to the material, but to the endless hours of processing and programming. On top of all of this, we have to add in the cost of co-dependence, etc as you raised.

You said: We thought we were getting the love and wisdom of a higher being.

Not only that, but we were told we were getting it direct from the source without a middleman changing the message.

Cheers, Craig

I'm sorry if I said anything wrong, or pushed any buttons by my response to TedC. I was merely replying to the historical reference, and to the traditional role of prophets and followers. NONE of what I said had anything to do with Lazaris.

So, don't read anything into it. It was, at best, a digression to the topic. I'm sorry to cause thread drift.

For the record, here are my feelings about Jach and crew.

Lazaris doesn't exist. Jach is accessing some conscious, and some subconscious thoughts and portraying them in a fashion that is acceptably "new age". It's not that difficult to generate this kind of self-induced schizophrenia. Whether it was a sincere attempt at spirituality once upon a time is irrelevant.

Linguists, psychologists, medical people, and philosophers have explored the channeling phenomenon for decades and there is not a whit of evidence that any of the purported entities actually exist.

And really, with all the profound thinkers, all the sincerely religious, all the deeply mystical people in the world, this "higher entity" is really going to select a twenty-something insurance salesman to convey his message of wisdom because the insurance guy has a girlfriend that the entity admires? Gimme a break!

It's pretty simple, really. Michaell was the researcher and scriptwriter, Peny was the promoter, and Jach is the frontman. It's a very lucrative business.

The trouble is that they anchored their business in a couple of valid concepts. That's what causes all the confusion. It's also the way out.

If the concept "you make your own reality" is at all valid (and I believe it is), then you can create believability where none exists; you can create entities, demons, and angels that will be completely real to you.

If you create your reality, then you can channel if you want to, you can do automatic writing, you can scry and interpret symbols.

You can also write sonatas, make great paintings, and write great books. It's the nature of creativity. But people don't seem to get the idea that "you make your own reality" means just that. You are the author of your own perceptions, beliefs, and reactions.

Jach knows this, as do most con men, charismatics, and even great leaders. They don't create the experience, they provide the means for others to join in the creation of the experience, and a movement is born.

Many people would pass by a Lazaris seminar and murmur "grifter". Others stop to listen to the profound thoughts. It's the same Jach, and the same seminar. The difference is in how an individual chooses to perceive it.

And if the entity doesn't objectively exist, then the entity can't be "evil", or "good", or "enlightened"...it just Jach.

If you want evidence that Lazaris is not the "enlightened being with profound knowledge", ask a few simple questions.

Back in '86 Lazaris (on the Merv Griffin show) chortled that "we know of such things" when Merv submissively announced a television commercial. Well, if the great Orb understands media marketing then he ought to be able to utter a few coherent sentences in another language. Pashtu, perhaps?

No entity has ever maintained a conversation in a language non-native to his channel, much less faithfully reproduced a dialect that is even a few hundred years old.

No entity has ever made any reference that didn't fall within the realm of conventional western social history and experience. Ask Lazaris to give his followers a sufficiently detailed description of an evening meal on the Mongolian plains in the late 1300s.

Lazaris rambles on about places like Atlantis, Lemuria, and King Arthur's court. All are unverifiable historically. How about asking him to provide six sequential figures in the Sumerian alphabet, or a knight's name for the pommel on a horse's saddle?

It ain't gonna happen.

End of full disclosure.

Regards,

George

TedC You wrote:
We all pretty much knew what we were getting buying a tape or seminar. At the time, it wasn’t a problem.

This isn't true. If lazaris had been presented as jach I might have listened to the material with interest but I would certainly not have given it the same authority. The key issue is that Laz was/is presented as a non physical, higher realm source. If you truly believe this then you treat the material differently, and you behave differently as a result.

Either jach is perpetrating a fraud or lazaris is with jachs help. On the question of evil I think I would like to find a definition. I tend to think that most 'evil' acts are perpetrated by fucked up people who need help and that humanities true nature is one of love, compassion and caring - we just have to uncover it.

The problem is that the evil acts can cause devastation to innocent people. If you accept that everyone creates their own reality then this CAN (I'm not saying does) be used as an excuse to blame the victim and absolve the perpetrator of full responsibility. The problem is that the evildoer doesn't get to suffer the consequences and the victim does.

I'm afraid the 'everyone creates their own reality' line is just too simplistic for me especially when I see images on TV of children suffering, maimed and starving. How the fuck did they create that? How are they allowing that?

Does anyone have a definition of evil?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Audrey:
You couldn't listen to any tape as far as I recall in recnet years without hearing a "plug" for another "issue" or another great "meditation" on yet another tape up for sale...

That REALLY started to bug me AND ring Manipulation- bells in my head.

Oh, the freedom I am feeling knowing I will never be led down THAT longggggg expensive yellow-brick road again...
Best
Audrey[/B]

---

Dear Audrey,

I was very sensitive to this in the early years. I wonder what happened? I remember Lazaris saying one time about hoping we would be able to give ourselves the gift of a certain workshop, and I remember putting it on myself as whether I could create good enough instead of thinking of it as a plug. I didn't think to maybe say "how about YOU giving it to me as a gift if it's so damn important to my growth?"

I was trying to calculate out the hourly rate of a Lazaris channel. Let's see....for an evening it's $45 x say 400 people on average for 3 hours, isn't that $18,000/3 or $6,000 per hour? For weekends, is it $385? That would be $154,000/11 hours channeling for $14,000/hour. And usually the meeting room is thrown in for free if you can get enough people staying in the hotel (hence the "block room" rate). And this doesn't include the tapes and new age knick knacks and crystals sold by people volunteering their time. Wow. What an elegant business. Check my figures, though. Does anyone know where I can get a job like this? Especially if Jach does indeed go to sleep. Wow. Kind of flies in the face of all that talk of being of such service to us all. I'd love that kind of work.

So, anyone want to help figure up how much C:S has made over the years from all of us?

Sorry. Guess I'm questioning EVERYTHING right now, so I seem a little cynical. I'm actually turning over everything and examining it very closely so that I continue with the positive life I'd have so far.

quote:

---

Originally posted by oakspirit:
Hi Wonderingallowed,

I recall when I saw the flyer for the first Aurthurian legends seminar, there was a statement about how this was the "only" current that could take us all the way home. Alarm bells went off within. This was so contrary to my spiritual beliefs that it really raised my doubts even more than they already were. I went though. What a bunch of tripe. As I was sitting there I noticed that the woman sitting next to me had the said flyer and she had that sentence highlighted. It felt like such a manipulation. I don't know why, that one just stood out to me more.

---

Hi Oakspirit,

I missed the Arthurian legend stuff altogether, so I guess I'm not going home. Damn. And to think my soul could have been saved for a mere $600 plus airfare and hotel and meals and....oh well. I spent the time with my son and significant other instead, walking on the beach and enjoying the laughter and love we share. If I'm damned to a dead end life, I guess I might as well enjoy it.

quote:

---

Wow. What an elegant business.

---

LOL! Hey, I think your financial figuring is very interesting. What a gig. And you know there are perks too.

Jade

quote:

---

Originally posted by TedC:
[B]WA,
The question does become interesting when L is granted authenticity. Perhaps his motive could be the same as J’s, power over, adulation, creating dependence. Perhaps non-physical entities can get a “hit” in attracting the attention of physical beings like ourselves. Nevertheless, legitimate material has been offered.

---

Hi TedC

I believe there are 4 main options:

Lazaris is Jach and it's a conscious fraud for money and power.

Lazaris is some aspect of Jach and it's an unconscious fraud. (This brings in the whole issue of Jach's influence on the message.)

Lazaris is who he says he is and is here to love and help humanity simply for the opportunity to love.

Lazaris is a malevolent entity.

The question of the value of the material can be asked for any of the above possibilities. That isn't what interests me at the moment, however, since I feel I am the one who creates the value in anything I experience or hear. Hell, a child sees a lot of value in the candy and smiling face of a stranger offering to be a friend before experiencing abuse. That doesn't mean it was worth it!

If the question is more along the lines of if there is absolute truth in the material, that is a different question. Both would be good for a topic by themselves. However, the main thrust of this topic, as I understand it, is to explore the POSSIBILITY that Lazaris is a malevalent entity. I will stay away from terms like antiChrist and evil because there is so much from Chrisianity and Hollywood that will only cloud this discussion.

quote:

---

Does L manipulate to create such worship? You mention one thing specifically having to do with this, touting seminars as the opportunity of a lifetime. Katie has mentioned love-bombing, the use of “we love you” phraseology to create emotional dependence. I myself have heard L say that there are no requirements to take any particular seminar, where you’re at is where you’re at and it’s the best place to begin. I don’t dispute what you have heard. Touting any particular seminar as “the opportunity” is creating fear and dependence. It would make me concerned if I heard it.

---

One of the earliest and most vulnerable things we become aware of in our childhood is the need to belong, and the absolute feeling of fear and sadness if we feel left out. Shunning is an ancient and still effective way of dealing with those who don't fall in line. So telling me I don't have to come or buy any tapes while at the time making it clear there is a special magical spiritual party going on that I will miss isn't really letting it be OK if I do or don't go, is it? And further more advertising that it may be critical to our growth or the only true thread home isn't letting it be OK if I don't go either. It sets up a feeling of missing out, of not belonging, and in fact, of doing damage to myself by not going.

quote:

---

The love-bombing to me is more interesting because I have the tape, Feeling More of the Love, or whatever it was called, that was specifically directed at feeling L’s love. I really liked that tape when I heard it but I did wonder what it meant that he loves us but how am I supposed to know that in my everyday life? How does L interact with us to create a love that is actually real? Well, the truth is, he doesn’t (at least outside the seminars, which I’ll get to). We interact (or attempt to do so) and if we don’t get it, then something is wrong with us. I wound up shrugging this off back then, maybe because I’m not so in touch with that particular emotion even with physical beings! But now I think Katie was right, L manipulates big time with the love-bombing, at least on tapes.

---

Most of my friends pick up the phone and call me if they haven't seen me in awhile. They check up on me and tell me they miss me if I dont' come around. So....Lazaris, give me a call and we'll talk. But I'm not getting out my charge card.

quote:

---

I have been in seminars where L is interacting directly and when the exchange is over, the person has said how much they love L. And I have felt it too. The feeling was very palpable and not because of L professing love but from the way he interacted, loving was about the only way to describe it. And this was not an isolated incident, it happened many times.

What conclusions to draw from this? I think it can be read either way. Love-bombing is a technique that can create emotional dependence. L uses the technique on tapes. L in person does project loving concern and caring. I don’t think it’s reasonable to make a blanket statement that L is manipulating for a devious purpose. It may be that love can be experienced in a non-physical context, I’m sure many Christians would profess such a relationship with Jesus. You and I don’t have it with L. It doesn’t mean that something is wrong with us nor do I think it means something is wrong with L for holding it out as a possibility.

---

First of all, how many times was there not a problem with the person?

Second, who was in charge?

Third, wasn't it interesting how impressed people were by Lazaris?

Fourth, what better way to become more powerful than to take the role of the authority who knows better than you do what is going on with you and your life.

Fifth, maybe it was real. That is what we are exploring.

quote:

---

You bring up the issue of money. It’s a good one. Should L charge for seminars and tapes? A couple things to consider. People do put time and effort into setting up and running the seminars and creating and distributing the tapes. Should they be reimbursed? The question probably isn’t about fair reimbursement but fair value. Were you ripped off? I think only you can answer this question and as such, whether the charging of money is reasonable or not cannot be used as a blanket indictment of L. To some, it may certainly raise suspicions, for others, it may be cheap at any price. We all pretty much knew what we were getting buying a tape or seminar. At the time, it wasn’t a problem. That it may be a problem now speaks more to fact of other concerns of L’s legitimacy than directly to this one.

---

A 27,000 square foot beach house in West Palm Beach. A 20,000 square foot house in Orlando. Good grief. Follow the energy, the flow of money. That speaks volumes. And the set-up for the events is almost free (the seminar rooms are usually thrown in free if enough event guests stay in the room "blocks", and the selling stuff were by unpaid people (except for one or two on the expensive crystals). And how much to make a tape and copy each tape?

One possibility that I deluded myself with for years is that Lazaris only wants to talk with those who can create enough success to aford these things.....a weeding out sort of process. That it wasn't about the money, but about pre-selecting those who made it high enough priority and who had enough magic to create the ability to go. Arrogance.

quote:

---

You raise the fact that L’s closet human associates had rather unseemly endings. Many people have come to bad ends, this does not necessarily mean the ideals they supported were corrupt. It does give one pause that all L’s teachings seem to come to naught in his foremost disciple. IMO, there is nothing defensible about either one of them. What reflects badly on L for me however is not how they wound up (which was probably appropriate given the understanding of the material they seemed to have) but the praise he lavished on them. What made them such jewels? Nobody seems to know. L does take on a fragrant odor here for which I have no explanation. This and the fact that he lied about the deaths is the foundation on which my questioning rests.

---

Well, it all began to unravel for me over the deaths. Something is WRONG! Just plain old fashioned WRONG here. It smells. And IF Lazaris had said something right away like "yes, we tried to get Peny to do this or that, but you know free will and all that", then I might have gone merrily on. Or if he had explained Michaell as screwing up and not nobelizing something that is just plain anti-life, I might have swallowed it. So here are the questions and thoughts I have on this:

Does Lazaris make us stronger in living life physically? Does he help us prefer what is good for us? Is it arrogant to "rise above reality" and look upon physical consensus reality with suspicion instead of experiencing deeply the rich experience of everyday life? Does he create a disatisfaction that is unhealthy? Is the imagery and idealism of the meditations against the physical senses and good living? (Lazaris has never been physical, and has recently commented on how happy he is with that decision. Is that a put-down for us beings who are physical?) Is Lazaris grounded in life instincts? Is it a way of life or a mind set, philosophy, mind-f*ck? Does it help us have a life of living unity between god/ess and humankind? Is there a hatred of reality being fostered? Isn't the way of dying an example that speaks volumes? Does Lazaris promise everything and deliver nothing?

"Truth has already been stood on it's head when the obvious attorney of mere emptiness is mistaken for it's representative." (Nietzsche)

quote:

---

You pose sinister questions at the end of your first post, I believe as a reflection of how L or true L believers might view your inquisitive mind. I have no such judgements. L himself supports the thesis, antithesis, synthesis view of reality and we are practicing no less. There is nothing wrong with asking questions and seeking one’s own answers. L encouraged it. Those who would judge you for it miss the essence of the materials, which is a seeking and embodying of our own true spirituality.

---

quote:

---

My point here is not to dissuade you from any conclusions you may have come to own your own. They can indeed be true for you where someone else would have a hard time understanding. My own feeling is that L offers something of value while at the same time fostering a dependence in those so inclined. L is also not all he says he is and so must be looked at with a wary eye. I understand how the question of his true motive can arise. And while it’s certainly possible that it may be more suspect than one might think on first glance, real evil for me is not in evidence. I invite you to look through my reasoning in the same way I have looked through yours. While we do not have to agree, understanding of both sides I believe is well within our reach.

---

And I would suggest to you that real evil would wear a friendly face of love and have a beautiful philosophy with which to take you down. If it didn't have any value, if it were obvious, there would be no one at the seminars and no one would buy the tapes.

So, no conclusions yet. No evidence except on the effect on our physical/spiritual life. But a valid thing to consider.

"When the centre of gravity of life is placed, not in life itself, but in "the beyond"--in nothingness--then one has taken away its centre of gravity altogether."
Nietzsche

quote:

---

Originally posted by Katie:

Some old nun of mine once said that hell is the complete ignorance of God. I always kind of liked that definition, even though my thoughts on God might vary from hers.

Here's another "equation" I like to ponder.

If God/heaven=good and Satan/hell=evil and the nun's definition is correct, then an act of evil could be defined as anything that obscures our ability to know "God" or The Divine.

In my equation here, Jackass/Bizzaris is the epitomy of evil, along with all others who superimpose themselves between us and God/heaven/good.

Likewise, for individuals who choose to deny their own ability to connect to God/heaven/Good, or try to discourage or stop others.

As long as we continue to include these diversive beliefs and tactics as any kind of spirituality I think we are on a very dark path leading nowhere if we're lucky, and straight to hell if we take the "wrong" forks in the road.

Katie[/B]

---

Katie,
And I think all around us is the living presence, in our own physical lives, of god/ess. A life given to us to experience in order to know them more. And when we think that to know him/her we must find an interpreter or avoid or fix the context and content of our lives, then we create a type of suffering that drives us even more into feeling like we need someone to connect us with them.

wonderingallowed