quote:

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Just a couple of questions:
1. How powerful do I think I am?
2. How powerful am I?

I understand that you intend to be supportive, but the statement you made really suggests that you think you know a whole lot more about me than I do about myself.

You have never even met me. Do you have some 'special' knowledge I should be aware of?

---

Hi Ali,

How powerful are you? At least as powerful as I am. You are at least as powerful as everyone else.

Do you feel that way, or do you think that most things in your life are done to you; that the reason your are where you are right now (which might be on top of the world, for all I know) is someone else's "fault" or just plain luck.

I have said in other posts, I consider "blame" and "fault" dumb, destructive concepts. To me there are choices, results, more choices, more results. If we wallow in judgment (even against self) it stops us from moving forward with the new choice, new results (sometimes the new result begins with feeling better).

Wrong or right, my intuition was that you weren't feeling all that powerful lately, so in spite of your rather declarative dismissal of some of what I wrote in my post to "wa", I thought that in spite of my fatigue, I would not respond with direct confrontation, but with something of perhaps an unexpected encouraging statement, with a "thank you" for a piece of the feedback that I thought was valuable to me. (therefore simultaneously denying you satisfaction of further engagement on the declarative stuff, and thanking you for the piece of info that I did find helpful).

I realize now that my state of mind last evening was not conducive to clear decision-making.

Nevertheless, I close without anger or regret!

-Dagaz

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I would like to comment on what I sometimes sense in your posts.

I do not think there is an issue about you being on a soapbox. It is more an issue with the "I see, think or know things that you don't" tone. It's kind of a fatherly tone.

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Hi Craig,

Thank you for your comments. It is useful to read your reminder that I am not presenting or addressing a crowd like I often do in my work, but instead am participating in a community bulletin board.

If my tone comes off as fatherly, it is probably because of authoritative style that I sometimes write and present with in my work. It is useful when you have a mixed audience and you tell everyone in advance that you are going to cover some ground that some already know, but you feel it is important to do so, so that everyone knows where you are coming from. When you are posting to a bulletin board, it doesn't work so well.

As far as the think and feel stuff...I would argue with anyone that between the lines and in the words of posters you can get more than just what's on the screen. Sometimes you get it wrong, but lot's of times you get it right.

You might think that I am an asshole, but I bet you don't, or you would have already told me without the feedback. I would bet that in spite of the pedantics, you guessed from other things about my writing that you could contact me just like you did, and I would appreciate it. Maybe you weren't sure, but you tried it.

Maybe I am full of shit again???

Anyway, I enjoy reading your posts too, and as well as the interaction with you and others on this board.

-Dagaz

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One quick thing, though, without going into specifics, is that your comments seem to treat the Lazaris experience as if it were a course or class whose material we pick through and choose as it suits us.

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SOME of it is this, or can be treated as such. That is an approach that I suggest can have some value-that I will address more later.

quote:

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For most of us it wasn't about that, but about a relationship that was shattered.

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I take it that by "most of us" you mean those here that were in as deep as you and now know that the whole Lazaris concept is flawed, because the larger set of those who have had contact with Lazaris probably spans a continuum from those who have seen an article in a woo-woo mag, or heard a tape and thought that stuff was OK, all the way through those who thought of Lazaris as the most sacred being to contact us since the legendary beings of the major world religions (and perhaps more powerful still), and believed that they were enjoying a sustaining and loving relationship with same.

quote:

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Lazaris, in the blendings and meditations, most definitely (in ways that I'm still looking at) encourages us to love him. Receiving his love, giving him our worries and health issues, allowing him to intervene in ways "we can't understand" on our behalf, going through doors he opens, meeting beings and our higher selves through his introductions, letting his energy into our energy field with trust vulnerability .... this is anything but about the techniques and material. It is about a love relationship. And if you've ever had one end, you know it's not only about deciding to take responsibility and decide what to get out of it, you know the emotional trauma and pain involved that must be healed and released.

---

I think that these are good points, stated very clearly, and reasons why folks could feel hurt and worse at how things have come out. Still, I have to ask you: How do you think that the trust and love was earned??? Someone can tell me that they love me all they want, and that doesn't mean that I am going to love them back, or that I will accept willy-nilly whatever form their expression of love is going to take toward me.

How is it that Lazaris just says, "we love you" and we just say, "cool, we love you too, lay some technique on me!"

I think that I agree with Flo in that sense...that a synergy was formed between the technique and the approach to dispensing it, so that the whole deal worked very efficiently on some people.

My ultimate reason for separating it out, is to illustrate that:

1)None of us are failures for getting sucked in to begin with to whatever degree, because some of the techniques worked, and added to the whole picture in such a way as to build credibility and trust in spite of some of the glaring conflicts and mess-ups that we are willing to overlook if something is missing and we are feeling pretty good about it (I realize that this fact is obvious to many here and that many are operating at a point past this realization, but I list it here just so those reading along know that I know)

2)We still have access to the very metaphysics that we thought we had when we were involved with Lazaris (although it now comes from other areas/resources), because we can love ourselves as much as we thought that Lazaris loved us, and we have oversouls that are PART us that we can connect with, and All-that-Is that we can connect with, and meditations that work, and reality creation techniques that work, etc. So, if what we thought worked for us when we were getting it from Lazaris worked then, then it can work now, but with the difference that we can take the more active role that we thought we were before but now can truly enjoy. (I know that others here know this, I am merely explaining my approach to WA)

3)For whatever reasons we created the reality of Lazaris for ourselves to this point, we could have some fun-yes, fun-looking at that-and finding some good as well as bad reasons, and then make new choices going forward, without feeling a whole lot of self-pity, or fueling the anger most of us already have. (I don't know if others here would benefit from this, but these last are decisions that I made for myself after getting pissed off and looking at my options).

quote:

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That is why I wanted to explore whether Lazaris might be a malevolent entity ... not because of the material, but because of the terrible karma and ill intent of someone who would willfully deceive within the context of a love relationship.

---

Along the way of pondering and responding to your questions, I realize now that I shifted focus from your main point, to some points of my own. For this I apologize.

I can't agree about Karma, because I don't really believe that it applies in the sense that most use it, as I believe in simultaneous incarnation, not reincarnation.

However, I would like to address now, the malevolence thing.

My sense is that, no, true evil intent isn't present here. I do feel as though I participated unwittingly in someone's experiment.

I mean (as his imagination runs wild) I could write a great science fiction story about a superior intelligence that, recognizing that certain people here on Earth had a spiritual hunger for something beyond counterfeit Gospels and rules of living thousands of years old, decided to give them some stuff that they could use and see how well it worked for them.

In this case, I think that experimenters were human, and were just bright enough to leverage the "hunger for" and collect some adequate "food" to feed it, and the experiment was interesting and succeeded in making the experimenters rich and in having a variety of impacts on the unwitting participants.

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Some may be saying that I was not deceived, that I am rejecting his love, that I am running my "love myth" on him, that I am throwing away my spirituality or am in negative ego, that I have chosen a mediocre future because I am projecting crap onto Lazaris.

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Who cares what they think. You have your experience and your metaphysics. You can make new choices.

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So explain to me why Lazaris didn't say ANY of what you said to us about Peny's death?

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Explain to me how it is that Peny was such a magician and loving light.

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And let me know why the secrecy and silence is so important.

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It is a far greater stretch for me to rationalize away Peny's discrepant death than to come to the conclusion Lazaris is something other than what he says. And then put this in the context of a loving, trusting relationship and it becomes much more than simply picking and choosing what works and what doesn't.

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Agreed, but isn't picking some stuff that works (not from Lazaris anymore), and building on a personal, loving metaphysics (without Lazaris)a start toward putting this behind us, a more satisfying present, and brighter futures?

-Dagaz

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Agreed, but isn't picking some stuff that works (not from Lazaris anymore), and building on a personal, loving metaphysics (without Lazaris)a start toward putting this behind us, a more satisfying present, and brighter futures?

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a more satisfying present and brighter future than what?

Katie

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Originally posted by Katie:
Hi Dagaz,

a more satisfying present and brighter future than what?

Katie

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I think Lazaris is not a malevolent nonphysical entity. It’s just Jach. He’s quite a poetic and smart person who developed his alter ego ‘Lazaris’, to get attention (from Peny) and later on to get money (as he states over and over again on the Creating Prosperity tape: “I want more money, I accept more money”, and don’t bother about *deserving* it!

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For the record he did include, "I deserve more money," in that hypno-tation. But the kicker is "I am willing to receive more money with harm to none." Yet Jach/"Lazaris" (I agreed with your assessment) has no qualms about the harm caused by invading and plundering FOLs pocketbooks and psyches.

I'm the "optimistic" poster who hopes to be fully deprogrammed of 14 C:S years, in 14 months. I am feeling optimistic.

Jade

P.S. Hope I'm not the only one who caught Ivar's post, just before the Dagaz dialogue started flying.

Jach is well aware that his little empire is built on the (false) sense of trust in "Lazaris." Trust is the goal of the love bombing, blending, all wise/loving deceptive tactics of J/L.

Jach's smartest move is to put his "Lazaris" spin on trust in hopes of shoring up the crumbling walls of Laziland. We know that a cult can be run without honesty or integrity -- see the many in denial of truth after the investigation reports we publicized. The power hinges on gaining and maintaining the trust of followers. That way they will go into denial of facts, allow themselves to be abused or whatever is dished out

Bottom line is No trust=no cult=no money.

"In Lazaris We Trust"

Jade

Ivar posted a duplicate post on a new thread "Similar Experience".

Now that thread has gotten buried!!

Thanks for asking though, I went back and read Ivar's post again, and I was SURE I and others had responded to him and wondered where all the posts went. Then I remembered the other thread, and it seems Ivar is due a response to his last.

Bummer the way that works here sometimes, that a hot conversation gets going and a lot of great posts and sometimes newer posters get lost in the shuffle.

Hi Ivar!! We're over here!!!

So jach/laz is speaking on trust...again.

Like laz said before, once trust is shattered it is gone. (Unless you are in denial and with all the facts in front of your face refuse to admit it)

I would think it would be so confusing to go to this workshop and hear liar/jach speak about trust when deep down they (the attendees) know the truth cause they read the report).

Look for this working title for a workshop in the near future: Waking Up and Staying Asleep.

Sincerely,

You are very good at totally missing the point.

You wrote:
How powerful are you? At least as powerful as I am. You are at least as powerful as everyone else.

The question I asked was rhetorical and ironic since you cannot possibly answer either this of the first question I posed.

You wrote:
Do you feel that way, or do you think that most things in your life are done to you; that the reason your are where you are right now (which might be on top of the world, for all I know) is someone else's "fault" or just plain luck.

Why would you assume that I think in terms of 'fault' or 'luck'? is this based on 'intuition'? Remember these are your words not mine.

You wrote:
I have said in other posts, I consider "blame" and "fault" dumb, destructive concepts. To me there are choices, results, more choices, more results. If we wallow in judgment (even against self) it stops us from moving forward with the new choice, new results (sometimes the new result begins with feeling better).

Thanks for the homily. I've never heard those concepts before! (that was a sarcastic remark by the way, which apparantly you need explained to you. Your spiritual homilies contain nothing but the most elementary cliche and trite simplistic trutchs.)

You wrote:
Wrong or right, my intuition was that you weren't feeling all that powerful lately,

The issue isn't whether your intuitions are right or wrong but what you base them on and their appropriateness or otherwise to this forum for discussion.

You wrote:
so in spite of your rather declarative dismissal of some of what I wrote in my post to "wa", I thought that in spite of my fatigue, I would not respond with direct confrontation, but with something of perhaps an unexpected encouraging statement, with a "thank you" for a piece of the feedback that I thought was valuable to me. (therefore simultaneously denying you satisfaction of further engagement on the declarative stuff, and thanking you for the piece of info that I did find helpful).

If you felt fatigued why martyr yourself. Either wait till you're not fatigued or don't bother. Also why should I find any statement from you encouraging? Why should you think I find engagement in what you term as 'declarative dismissal' satisfying in any way?

You wrote:
I realize now that my state of mind last evening was not conducive to clear decision-making.

Only you can know that.

Why do you feel compelled to engage in this manner? You seem to feel that you are in the role of counsellor or teacher or some such position. If you do feel this then save it for people who ask for it. I enjoy receiving honest feedback. By honest I mean based on the emotional truths that others feel. If you look at most of the messages back and forth in this forum you will see that this is usually what happens. I do not want or need your homilies, intuitions, encouragement, lectures or assumptions.

Ali asks

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Why do you feel compelled to engage in this manner? You seem to feel that you are in the role of counsellor or teacher or some such position. If you do feel this then save it for people who ask for it. I enjoy receiving honest feedback. By honest I mean based on the emotional truths that others feel. If you look at most of the messages back and forth in this forum you will see that this is usually what happens. I do not want or need your homilies, intuitions, encouragement, lectures or assumptions.

---

I wonder if we can have this conversation without a lot of defensiveness coming out. In my mind it's a really important one.

Some of us have hypothesized here that one of the hooks of the Lazaris materials is a sense of spiritual superiority.

I know that during my L years I always had this silent smug little attitude when hearing about the trials and tribulations of others, a sense that I had all the answers, and "if they only knew what I know". I quietly judged my friends and acquaintences from the perpective I learned so well in the Forum, always noting when someone was in martyr, self-pity, or of course the big one "negative-ego", and I mentally reviewed how if they only had such and such a bit of wisdom, or used such and such a technique that things would come out so much better for them.

Well, fie on me, because my friends were always just as capable or more so than I have ever been at living their lives.

In retrospect, I see how the L materials served to make me one judgemental and SMUG person.

Anyway, when I read your posts here, I have a sense of familiarity in attitude.

I wonder if you'd like to discuss this.

We've had a very difficult time here in the past in dealing with this kind of issue between posters, and I'm wondering if this might be the time that we can get it out of the way without a lot of bad feelings.

It has been my observation that a lot of people come here with the idea that although we have some valid issues with Con:Sin, that we are really screwing ourselves up by ditching the teachings and techniques.

I am also aware of the judgements issued by Con:Sin about our motives and states of consciousness here, and that some of us have been thoroughly character assassinated in that group. I wonder if any of that thinking is influencing your interactions here.

After twelve years of thinking that it's ok for one person to judge the state of anothers soul or evaluate their state of consciousness, I've come to a strong place of rejecting that concept, especially since being privately humbled on more than one occasion here to recognize the depth, intelligence, and wisdom of many of our fellow posters. I've had to get used to the idea of not being the most enlightened and spiritual kid on the block, and I can't say that's a bad thing, or that in the beginning I even recognized that I held that attitude.

I sure as hell have gotten it though, and especially what a foul place it is to be both for myself and anyone else who I interact with.

Does anyone recall Lazaris discussing the virtue of humility?

Katie

You wrote:

quote:

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Does anyone recall Lazaris discussing the virtue of humility?

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From what I remember Lazaris said that humility was being able to see each day as brand new. Even though every other day had been a certain way to open the space for this one to be brand new.

He also said to be willing to see others as different than they were before. Just because someone always behaved in the same way to hold the space to see them behaving differently than before. To see them more positive and to allow that reality to manifest.

He also said to use humility even when something has been positive - to not take it for granted and expect that just because it has always worked out that way it will be that way. To be willing to see where it could go wrong and work with that.

I'm not sure which tape this is on but this is what I remember.

Anyone can correct me if I am wrong.

Sincerely,

Mickey

First off, you are doing the same thing to me that I did to Ali (that I was going to apologize for-more about that later). You are making an assumption. You are assuming that my "preachy" tone comes from my association with the Lazaris materials.

My preachy style is just me forgetting my manners and failing to curb my enthusiasm for metaphysics combined with me jumping in without more thoroughly checking out my assumptions I made about where people stood and where I could add value.

I like to add value where I can. Sometimes I can forget myself, and jump in with answers to questions that I people haven't really asked about, extrapolating down the road to answer what I think that they might be interested in that they haven't asked or whatever...

I approach metaphysics-this most important of my interests-with the same passion as everything else in my life, and when I forget myself like I did here, I can get rolling along and "preachy" about metaphysics, just like I can get on a roll about Australian Shepherd Dogs, guitar, x-country skiing (especially waxing), watercolor...I could go on. I could tell you more than you would want to know about any of them.

So you see, I am not feeling "spiritually superior", and I really don't have any axes to grind either. I am here for two reasons, both purely fun:

*If I can add value, that would be fun
*If I can take away something that I didn't know before, that would be fun.

So far, I am sure of the second one, and not so sure about the first. When neither is satisfied, or when I get to fed up with you assuming that every opinion of mine that is different from yours is traceable to my prior interest in the Lazaris Materials, I will split for good.

Now, regarding Ali's case: I thought that I noticed in her earlier posting, that she was feeling out of sorts and I quote her below so that you can see what I mean. This had nothing to do with her soul or state of consciousness or whatever....jeez...how could one judge that??? This was about Ali saying stuff like the following:

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I have spent the last few weeks in a state of shame and anxiety because of the mess I got myself into. I only realized how fucked up my thinking has become over the years when I tried to explain about what the con sin laz stuff stood for and how I had spent so much money on tapes and seminars to the official receiver.

I still feel in a state of shame and anxiety. And I feel that the laz material made me irresponsible. I still can't make that statement without the nagging voice 'you create your own reality' telling me that it's all my fault. In one sense I suppose it is - how could I have let this stuff separate me so completely from reality. It scares me and I don't know what to trust. I feel such anxiety. I don't know what to do. I just keep wanting to cry.

---

Now, reading that, I made an assumption that Ali wasn't feeling to good about reality, or creating her own reality, and was looking at Lazaris as the cause of all her ills. That may be true...I don't look at life that way, but that may be true for Ali. What I did then was make the assumption that Ali looked like she might just chuck some or all of her metaphysics because of the bad experience with Lazaris, and then I noticed a little bit of that sentiment in other posts too. So I wrote a few responses that I supposed might convey that just because some stuff originally was HEARD from Lazaris by some folks, doesn't mean that it isn't workable, and if you could find it elsewhere, by more trustworthy and worthy sources, you might not need to toss it all off, so to speak.

Well, I screwed things up from the first, and my mistakes with the Ali deal just escalated and the whole thing turned stupid. I should have just asked Ali a few questions before writing to her at all...but I was off and running and on a roll, and that was that.

So, no, I wouldn't want to discuss spiritual superiority or whatever. I don't think spiritual superiority is possible. I went through something like you described with my metaphysics once, but my issue wasn't smugness or superiority, it was more like that I was really grateful that I found what I found, and thought others would want to know about it, and that others would benefit, and that I was adding value if I told them about it. I stopped that, but then went on to make the mistake doing it in a metaphysics forum.

quote:

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By honest I mean based on the emotional truths that others feel.

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Hey Ali,

Do you know what? Here is some emotional honesty: I found at least one of your posts that seemed like you were going down a road that I wouldn't want to go down, so I made some assumptions about you that included that you might benefit from some of the things that I might have to say, and I don't have to go back to every word to know that whole thing got stupid, with me playing some games with you there in the end.

I may not always agree with your approach, but that doesn't mean that we still can't benefit from each other's thoughts in the future (provided I am around here in the future, and you are too).

I apologize for making those assumptions about you, and for screwing around in the last few posts.

-Dagaz

P.S.: This has nothing to do with spiritual superiority or whatever. This is about nothing else than doing what I feel is right.

I remember these definitions, it's interesting though, that there wasn't much attention given to the concept of humility, but so much given to more nebulous concepts such as "willingness" or "expectation".

It would seem that humility being a widely accepted attribute of spirituality would have gotten better billing.

Also, is this another "redefinition" situation?

Webster defines humility: not proud or haughty : not arrogant or assertive
2 : reflecting, expressing, or offered in a spirit of deference or submission

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From what I remember Lazaris said that humility was being able to see each day as brand new. Even though every other day had been a certain way to open the space for this one to be brand new.

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I'm not quite sure how I see this fitting into the above definition.

quote:

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He also said to be willing to see others as different than they were before. Just because someone always behaved in the same way to hold the space to see them behaving differently than before. To see them more positive and to allow that reality to manifest.

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or this.

quote:

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He also said to use humility even when something has been positive - to not take it for granted and expect that just because it has always worked out that way it will be that way. To be willing to see where it could go wrong and work with that.

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It does seem as though this concept got short billing and rather dubious definition.

WDYT?