Like everything else informing the Lazarian world view, the body is just one more problem to be solved, a part of being human that is given to contamination and *not* a power to be celebrated, enjoyed or trusted.

flo

I'm pretty much in full agreement with your disclosure.

You said: And really, with all the profound thinkers, all the sincerely religious, all the deeply mystical people in the world, this "higher entity" is really going to select a twenty-something insurance salesman to convey his message of wisdom because the insurance guy has a girlfriend that the entity admires? Gimme a break!

That gave me a good old fashion belly laugh!

Cheers, Craig

I really enjoy reading perspectives of new posters.

You said: I missed the Arthurian legend stuff altogether, so I guess I'm not going home. Damn. And to think my soul could have been saved for a mere $600 plus airfare and hotel and meals and....oh well. I spent the time with my son and significant other instead, walking on the beach and enjoying the laughter and love we share. If I'm damned to a dead end life, I guess I might as well enjoy it.

LOL! I loved the sarcastic humor that makes a very valid point.

You wrote:

quote:

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I'm sorry if I said anything wrong, or pushed any buttons by my response to TedC

---

It was TedC's post which annoyed me. Being new here, you may not be aware of the pattern he has had, which is to disregard what others have to say and to plow forth with his agenda, which seems to me to be to convince everyone else to agree with his assessment that Lazaris really isn't so bad. Not to convince people using reason, but to wear people down. And to suggest that the problem lies with us, not with Lazaris or Jach.

I apologize for including you in my response to him. I was kinda shocked that anyone would have found value in TedC's diatribe. But, again, I've been putting up with his nonsense for months now.

If TedC sees value in the material, then I suggest he continue to use it. But he also seems hell-bent on receiving approval for his descision to use it. He'll get plenty of that at the Lite Site. He won't get it from me.

Again, I apologize for lumping you in there with him. I enjoy your posts. And I agree with your disclosure.

You wrote some really amazingly pertinent questions that have condensed some uneasy and vague issues of my own.

1. Does Lazaris make us stronger in living life physically?

I think that lazaris emphasizes meditation above action. I thought that the most 'elegant' way to create a reality was by meditation, much physical activity seems to be reduced to the notion of 'struggle' and struggle, of course means that you are not living an elegant life. I did often wonder what concept synergy were doing to help the world, it didn't seem enough somehow to meditate alone. The emphasis on meditation raises questions for me: Were they the cornerstone of the mind control/manipulation? Does this emphasis make us too ready to do nothing? If so, is this part of the (evil) plan? I spent hours and hours doing meditations to work on all kinds of issues. I used to wonder sometimes how to fit it all in but I 'knew' that time spent meditating was the most valuable time possible.

2.Does he help us prefer what is good for us?

Well I guess he didn't help Penny prefer what was good for her - diet and exercise by the sound of it though I never met her. A little too much 'soulfood' perhaps?

3.Is it arrogant to "rise above reality" and look upon physical consensus reality with suspicion instead of experiencing deeply the rich experience of everyday life?

I suppose looking upon the 'consensus reality' is a kind of arrogance and there is definitely a separation involved from the 'rich experience'.

4. Does he create a disatisfaction that is unhealthy?

This I think laz definitely does. I think the constant emphasis on the future, becoming, etc separates us from the moment and I know that I used to constantly run through the criteria for creating a dream (does it help you reach...access to higher resources etc etc) and I ALWAYS felt that the job I had, the life I was living were painfully far from these criteria. Living for what I was becoming also made me irresponsible with what I am now.

5. Is the imagery and idealism of the meditations against the physical senses and good living? (Lazaris has never been physical, and has recently commented on how happy he is with that decision. Is that a put-down for us beings who are physical?)

I don't know. But I think you made some good points about why does it cost so much to actually experience the love of lazaris. I did wonder from time to time why it cost so much, I mean lazaris isn't physical so he doesn't need it, and I've done the maths about how much CS are making. For a non physical being he certainly has a handle on making a decent profit. Not that I grudge people money for their time, far from it, but after all this was supposed to be something else, something truly spiritual.

6. Is Lazaris grounded in life instincts?
There is too much focus on creating the future and clearing the past. What happened to the present?
7. Is it a way of life or a mind set, philosophy, mind-f*ck?
All of the above I suppose, but does anyone know anyone who has ever had a real, true, indubitably miraculous reality come about as a result of doing the laz stuff? I have never met anyone.

8. Does it help us have a life of living unity between god/ess and humankind? Is there a hatred of reality being fostered?

I think all the 'unseen friends' 'counsellors' 'higher self' and laz himself have served to separate me from G/ess. Also I did used to feel that doing anything in the physical world was futile.

9.Isn't the way of dying an example that speaks volumes? Does Lazaris promise everything and deliver nothing?

For me the deaths of P and M and how and why they came about were the final wake up call that I needed. It was just too creepy. I remember thinking first that this is the kind of stuff you read about, then 'oh my god I've introduced other people to these tapes' and that was the worst feeling of all.
Yes I think that laz does promise all and deliver nothing.

Thanks for your insights and questions.
ali

quote:

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And I think all around us is the living presence, in our own physical lives, of god/ess. A life given to us to experience in order to know them more. And when we think that to know him/her we must find an interpreter or avoid or fix the context and content of our lives, then we create a type of suffering that drives us even more into feeling like we need someone to connect us with them.

---

Yes, my sentiments precisely.

I was just reading big discussion by some allgedly deep spiritual thinkers in which the concept is being proposed that there is such a thing as a "spiritual initiate", one who is in need of help and guidance to find their way into the regions of stellar wisdom.

This is new-age smugness and self-congratulation taken to the extreme IMO. We won't even go into the potential for power and profit that weave its way through this kind of assertion, or the way it encourages some people to diminish themselves and their own wisdom and power.

I agree with you that life itself is the opportunity and the teacher. Each of our lives are our own, and we are spiritual whether we like it or not. It doesn't matter how versed we are in the concept of channeling, chakras, crystal magic, the Bible, or the Koran for that matter. What matters is how we live in our lives, utilizing the gifts and powers we innately own, and ultimately, IMO, how much REAL love we put into our lives. Faking out our fellow humans, promoting ourselves as being wiser than them, digging paths out of the wildnerness for people to follow, and flat out making things up just because they sound good is not LOVE. It's usuary, and it's evil IMO, regardless of how well-intentioned the "leader" might believe themselves to be.

There is such a thing as the Truth, and the Truth of our intentions can easily be ascertained if we so choose, but like I've been saying, sometimes the Truth just hurts too much in the moment, so better to live a convoluted life of denial of the Truth and just learn to live with that nagging ache that won't go away.

Katie

Evil is the opposite of live.

hmm.

That stands to hard reason, folks -- Evil is about sucking away: health, attention (TedC), money, healthy relationships, love: all the most precious parts of Life itself.

People -- Evil is *Only* -- as Evil does. And is ALWAYS -- best measured SOLEY by the *impact* of the behavior.. of the individual in question.

Ah -- THAT word again: QUESTION

Jach's IMO --"Jachzaris" channeling fraud is therefore IMO: evil.

This is absolutely not about the demonification of Jach's essential spiritual being.

This is about behavioral impact.

Case closed -- in this man's court of human emotional carnage.

Steve

quote:

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I think there's absolutely a pervasive contempt for physicality running through the material--Lazaris doesn't dwell overmuch on the blessings and pleasures of being physical (unlike Seth, say, who constantly reinforces the joys of "creaturehood",
the power, vitality and wisdom of the body, etc.)

Like everything else informing the Lazarian world view, the body is just one more problem to be solved, a part of being human that is given to contamination and *not* a power to be celebrated, enjoyed or trusted.

flo

---

Dear Flo,
I ran across this quote:

"Hope, in its stronger forms, is a great deal more powerful stimulans to life than any sort of realized joy can ever be. Man must be sustained in suffering by a hope so high that no conflict with actuality can dash it--so high, indeed, that no fulfillment can satisfy it: a hope reaching out beyond this world. Precisely because of this power that hope has of making the suffering hold out, the Greeks regarded it as the evil of evils, as the most malign of evils; it remained behind at the source of all evil." Nietsche

In a certain sense, the worlds I created and experienced with Lazaris were far beyond anything in this world. The intoxication and joy were beyond measure. And there lies the crux of my wondering. For when a quest begins at it's core in discovering a new world of joy different from the present physical reality, and that world isn't fully rooted in the physical of which we are a part, then I wonder if it doesn't perpetuate suffering and hold back evolution while we dwell in the ethers.

And yet another:
"Who alone has any reason for living his way out of reality? The man who suffers under it. But to suffer from reality one must be a botched reality. . . . The preponderance of pains over pleasures is the cause of this fictitious morality and religion: but such a preponderance also supplies the formula for decadence..." Nietsche

Perhaps the very wonderful desire to lift ourselves to a successful reality launched us upon a journey to an imaginary realm that is not firmly planted in the physical world, with an imaginary friend who may not really understand our physical condition very well at all (refer to Peny and Michaell). And maybe, understanding and fully living our physical condition is our true gift, our true power, and our true spiritual path. When it's time to be a being of energy, I will live that fully as well. But for now, I breath deep the ocean breeze, I feel the blood flowing through my veins, and I love in the present. And meditation can give me new eyes to see THIS physical reality here on Earth, illusion or not, rather than creating images in my psych that tell me how much better this should be. Seeing with strong and successful eyes, with nothing to fix and nothing wrong with me except a tendency to allow a vision to waylay and lull me from the road I walk, which ironically is the only suffering.

quote:

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Originally posted by ali:
I think that lazaris emphasizes meditation above action. I thought that the most 'elegant' way to create a reality was by meditation, much physical activity seems to be reduced to the notion of 'struggle' and struggle, of course means that you are not living an elegant life. I did often wonder what concept synergy were doing to help the world, it didn't seem enough somehow to meditate alone. The emphasis on meditation raises questions for me: Were they the cornerstone of the mind control/manipulation? Does this emphasis make us too ready to do nothing? If so, is this part of the (evil) plan? I spent hours and hours doing meditations to work on all kinds of issues. I used to wonder sometimes how to fit it all in but I 'knew' that time spent meditating was the most valuable time possible.

---

Dear Ali,

Thanks for your very reflective thoughts. It is good to explore this together. I like what you say here and the questions you pose.

The Toltecs teach that it's not the information, it is what you DO with the
information that is important. Action. Putting it into physical life. And of course, part of action is knowing when not to act as well as when to.

In a recent post to Flo I placed some quotes and comments about the importance of the physical condition, what the Greeks thought of as evil, and thoughts on meditation that I realize would be good here as well , but I won't duplicate the words but refer you to that post. I hope that is OK.

quote:

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.......but does anyone know anyone who has ever had a real, true, indubitably miraculous reality come about as a result of doing the laz stuff? I have never met anyone.

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Well, I know I'M a god and have spectacular realities in my own head. [LOL] Hmmmm....maybe I'll just go live there and grow fat and lazy here. After all, this is just pretend illusion anyway, right?

quote:

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I think all the 'unseen friends' 'counselors' 'higher self' and laz himself have served to separate me from G/ess. Also I did used to feel that doing anything in the physical world was futile.

---

quote:

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For me the deaths of P and M and how and why they came about were the final wake up call that I needed. It was just too creepy. I remember thinking first that this is the kind of stuff you read about, then 'oh my god I've introduced other people to these tapes' and that was the worst feeling of all.
Yes I think that laz does promise all and deliver nothing.

---

To tell you the truth, the thought crossed my mind that "oh my god, I've chosen the nightmare, the mediocrity. I'm creating a reality where P&M died very weirdly, where Lazaris might go away (all that time without word from him). I remembered his stories about for some who learned to create their own reality Atlantis never did get destroyed. And then I realized what a giant mind f*ck number I was doing on myself. So, if you create me doing anything bad, then YOU are choosing a mediocre reality...... Give me a break!

wonderingallowed

[This message has been edited by wonderingallowed (edited 11-07-2001).]

quote:

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Originally posted by Katie:

I was just reading big discussion by some allgedly deep spiritual thinkers in which the concept is being proposed that there is such a thing as a "spiritual initiate", one who is in need of help and guidance to find their way into the regions of stellar wisdom.

This is new-age smugness and self-congratulation taken to the extreme IMO. We won't even go into the potential for power and profit that weave its way through this kind of assertion, or the way it encourages some people to diminish themselves and their own wisdom and power.

---

I have an artist friend who I like a lot and admire. Although he has issues, he has led a life doing exactly what he wants to do each day. He says there is a sort of "hummmmmm" that he hears when he is in the groove of who it is. He says that if he steps out of being the person who he is then he experiences pain and life quickly lets him know he is being who he is not. That there is a flow and a rhythm to himself that has taken him deeper and deeper into love.

I like that.

And so I guess from that my view of a true teacher is anyone that helps me to hear my "hummmmmmm". Not imagining one that I would like, not finding a beautiful one or awesomely magical one, but the one I AM.

quote:

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I agree with you that life itself is the opportunity and the teacher. Each of our lives are our own, and we are spiritual whether we like it or not. It doesn't matter how versed we are in the concept of channeling, chakras, crystal magic, the Bible, or the Koran for that matter. What matters is how we live in our lives, utilizing the gifts and powers we innately own, and ultimately, IMO, how much REAL love we put into our lives.

---

I like what you say here. It is very powerful. And free [smile].

quote:

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There is such a thing as the Truth, and the Truth of our intentions can easily be ascertained if we so choose, but like I've been saying, sometimes the Truth just hurts too much in the moment, so better to live a convoluted life of denial of the Truth and just learn to live with that nagging ache that won't go away.

---

But you know, life has a way of stripping away our denials and convoluted numbing away of the Truth that can be very painful. Sometimes one like Lazaris can seem to be the answer, when all along it was right before us.

I have moved the off-topic posts to the appropriate place.

I get it now. When you previously wrote regarding TedC, I was uninformed. I had just responded to a single post of his (as a standalone message) and saw nothing terribly offensive in it; it also had a self-contained sort of logic.

Now that I've had a chance to read several of his messages, the pattern is much clearer to me.

I've seen this behavior on other message boards. The writer (in this case, TedC) presumes a "high moral position" from which he asks what he considers Socratic questions. The presumption is, of course, that he has insight, knowledge, or information that he will share, if the correspondent pre-sets the stage by tacitly or directly agreeing to the a priori assumptions he has made.

You're right, there is no real dialog. This is an attempt to lead thoughts, not share them. And I've just seen another tactic, the one in which the manipulator pulls in an innocent bystander as a defensive shield (in this case WA). Again, mutual innocence is proclaimed, non-threatening questions are raised, and the target is invited to participate by saying "the others don't understand", "maybe it should be just us".

Sheesh. This is the really annoying thing about cults and manipulation in general. There is no one pattern that you can put your finger on. If there were, cults wouldn't exist. Instead, the people who are really skilled at deflection, avoidance, and assertion of innocence manage to manipulate well-meaning people into a position from which they feel guilty if they try to extract themselves.

Maybe there ought to be a rule that says, "before you are allowed to engage in conversation with others, you have to flat out state what your beliefs/opinions are on this subject". Obviously, those opinions and beliefs may change or be modified, but at least a person would know where another person stands.

The other pattern I've noticed with manipulators is that they bury you in words. They always avoid short declamations, and use 10,000 words where 10 will do. And in those 10,000 words, there will be 2,000 questions. Just feeling you have to answer each of those questions is manipulative in itself.

Too bad there is no verbal equivalent to calling in an airstrike; I know of more than a few Internet posters who would have to hunker down if such a thing were possible.

Regards,

Once again you hit the target. This must be the cyber equivalent of an air-strike.

We've had so much frustration and endless bad feelings here because of the difficulty some seem to have in understanding that most of us here prefer to engage in mutually respectful dialogue between equals.

It is endlessly annoying to be accused of everything from abuse to murder because of objections to being spoken down to, manipulated, preached to, enlightened, helped, etc.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to figure out what this issue is all about.

quote:

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Maybe there ought to be a rule that says, "before you are allowed to engage in conversation with others, you have to flat out state what your beliefs/opinions are on this subject". Obviously, those opinions and beliefs may change or be modified, but at least a person would know where another person stands.

---

I think there is such a rule, maybe an unspoken one, between mutually respectful people. To do less than state your position in the midst of a debate or discussion is rude at best, and manipulative at worst. In our experience here, it's a deliberate attempt to lead others to the "kill".

quote:

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Too bad there is no verbal equivalent to calling in an airstrike; I know of more than a few Internet posters who would have to hunker down if such a thing were possible.

---

We have seen quite a few people head for the hills, and rumor has it that some of them are hiding out in caves in the surrounding hills nursing their wounds.

Oh, but it's so MEAN George, to expect people to stick to a majority standard of interaction, and let me tell you, it isn't SPEERITCHUAL either.

Lava and peas,

Katie

You wrote:

"For when a quest begins at it's core in discovering a new world of joy different from the present physical reality, and that world isn't fully rooted in the physical of which we are a part, then I wonder if it doesn't perpetuate suffering and hold back evolution while we dwell in the ethers."

I think it does perpetuate a kind of quiet suffering, which works in part along the lines of something akin to class envy--envy for the more "evolved" states of being possible (either here through possessing superior spirituality or on other planes of existence) which both inspires and feeds the discontent you mentioned previously--the density of the physical, the you in that world and the life you're creating within it become something to be shunned, worked around or overcome rather than embraced.

You wrote:

"And maybe,understanding and fully living our physical condition is our true gift, our true power, and our true spiritual path."

Amen to that.

flo

quote:

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Originally posted by George:
TedV,

You're right, there is no real dialog. This is an attempt to lead thoughts, not share them. And I've just seen another tactic, the one in which the manipulator pulls in an innocent bystander as a defensive shield (in this case WA). Again, mutual innocence is proclaimed, non-threatening questions are raised, and the target is invited to participate by saying "the others don't understand", "maybe it should be just us".

---

Actually, I'm not quite the innocent TedC may think I am. Don't worry about me. But, I do feel TedC (and if you are reading TedC feel free to respond) has deep fears about Lazaris and the material that he doesn't even want to admit to himself....so he may bait and hope against hope that by continually doing so he will be able to convince himself, all the while thinking he is trying to convince another. I know I didn't have your permission to analyze you TedC, and feel free to jump back at me on this if I am totally off the mark.

Why are you here if it isn't true? To save us? Hardly what Lazaris teaches about the savior always being destroyed. To demonstrate your superior knowledge? We know you have handled arrogance as part of your processing with Lazaris. For the sheer love of debate and poking holes in people's logic? Logic won't get you to heaven, so to speak, and there are plenty of other places where that is more welcome and more appropriate. And Lazaris teaches that metaphysics doesn't need to be defended.

So any possible reason that you have for posting here, as with me, basically either goes against the Lazaris material or questions it. And the only truly honest thing to do is admit that and look at your fear that your Lazarian world has cracks in it that won't go away.

So...back to the topic at hand.

Has/is Lazaris leading us astray?

Is he anti-life?

Does he get us to create castles in the air to live in while neglecting our physical/spiritual path? While draining away our money, time, energy and creating worry and doubt and assuaging it with his solace?

Lazaris? If you are real and benevolent, I am waiting to hear from you and I challenge you to discuss the deaths of Peny and Michaell in an honest and open way. To address the concerns of everyone on this board. And I challenge you to make a difference in people's lives
in terms of health, raising children, making friends, being physical, having a long and vital life, and having demonstrable success directly from your material.

Before I got to know the Lazaris Material, I was a member of the International Society for Krsna Consciousness (ISKCON). In ISKCON one sees the Vedas as revelations of the Absolute Truth. The Vedas, especially the Bhagavad-gita, a scripture based on the Vedas, give a clear outline of the mechanisms of karma and reincarnation. Therefore I immediately started doubting Lazaris’ words when ‘they’ said things about these subjects, like “parallel lifetimes”, “time is an illusion” and stuff like that (the Bhagavad-gita states that reincarnation is a cycle, and that the soul travels through time, which is not an illusion; only our perception of time is illusory). And why didn’t he ever mention things like vegetarianism (ahimsa) or detachment (sannyas)? Also Lazaris’ poor pronunciation of Sanskrit words like chakra (‘sjakra’ instead of tjakra’) made it clear to me that ‘they’ had no connection with this ancient tradition. So I soon lost interest in Lazaris, knowing that something was wrong.

Two years ago I was listening to the ‘Sacred Journey’ meditation tapes, and had it in my walkman as I visited a psychic. She took the tape between her hands and sensed a very negative energy. She stated that this was a group of people who was making money by expounding lofty spiritual ideas. I told her Lazaris only gave workshops in America. She answered: "Oh, good, let him and his group stay there. These are money-minded people.”

I think Lazaris is not a malevolent nonphysical entity. It’s just Jach. He’s quite a poetic and smart person who developed his alter ego ‘Lazaris’, to get attention (from Peny) and later on to get money (as he states over and over again on the Creating Prosperity tape: “I want more money, I accept more money”, and don’t bother about *deserving* it!)

These last three years I went through the process of ridding myself of the illusions of Hinduism that I had learned in ISKCON. I read in one of the postings here that a member guessed that after 14 years of working with the Lazaris material it would probably take 14 months to totally deprogram. In my experience that’s optimistic! It may take you several years! You will realize as the years pass that more and more subtle illusions are recognized and then cast away.

I could relate a lot to Ali, who wrote:

The question remains for me about whether there is anything beyond what we can see, touch, taste etc. I had a strong concept of a loving higher power before I got involved with this stuff but I don't feel that now. I only have questions and no answers. I have taken a sense of god for granted for so long that I find it difficult to deal with the feeling of emptiness.

I have been living with this feeling for more than two years now, and it ain’t easy. I too believed strongly in an Absolute Truth, or Truths, which I cannot believe in anymore right now. For me that Absolute Truth was not Lazaris’ version of Reality, but the ISKCON version of it (God is Krsna, Goddess is his girlfriend Radha, and we are all his lost servants). I too spent a lot of money, on ISKCON tapes and books. Although not as much money as most of you, I spent the years I should have spent getting some kind of education (between 18 and 24), pursuing illusions as a celibate monk.

I wish you all lots of strength in this process.

Per TedC, I don't know what to think about his interest or lack of it in the L materials. He defends L here, and questions the Orb on another message board.

TedV and I had a phone interaction with him last night,and the conclusion I've come to is that TedC simply enjoys pushing people's buttons. I don't think he cares a whit about Lazaris. He admits to not having worked with even the twelve "transcripts" he has. Whatever they are is anyone's guess. Maybe someone else's notes on the tapes?

TedC's first post here was combative, and after months and months of back and forth with him, it's become clear to me that he is only here to start fights. It's my opinion that he doesn't even write all of his own posts, but allows his name to be used by another noteworthy trouble maker here.

Anyway, TedC has agreed that he won't post if no one posts back to him. I have decided to move his posts into a "lights out" area where they won't draw attention to themselves. It's just too much of a distraction from the purpose of this board to try to interact with him. His clear purpose is to thwart communication here, and I sincerely don't believe his motives go beyond that.

I realize that I am making it difficult for anyone who wants to to respond to TedC, but that is my decision, in the interest of unhampered communication for all.

If anyone has a strong feeling against this decision, of course they are welcomed to speak up, and all thoughts will be considered. Maybe someone else has a better solution.

Katie

Thanks for your insights into the TedC phenomenom It's quite frustrating to deal with passive-aggression, as it can appear on the surface to be so benign. Sometimes it's hard to put your finger on exactly what the game is, and to do so may require a bit of psych-analysis of the offender. Which I would prefer not to do, given that I don't like people - especially strangers - analyzing me. But this behaviour is designed to push people in directions they would rather not go.

WA wrote:

quote:

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Actually, I'm not quite the innocent TedC may think I am...

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Neither is TedC is innocent he proclaims to be.

Oh YEEEEEEEEEEEEES --

An EXCELLENT solution.

Free speach is COMPLETELY preserved -- and the creep has full run of the rarely visited Cosmicfool Social Crap Heap'n Secret Torture Garden TM.

Kick ASS!

Leo's ALSO -- LUUUUUUUUUUVE to: W_I_N T_O_T_A_L_L_Y.

I am adding my answers to these very good questions (one of them I didn't quite get , though). Although many of my thoughts might appear as a counterpoints to others' here--of some are, of course--my answers are not intended to be an argument away from anyone's experience... I believe everyone's experience is valid and uniquely theirs. My intent is to add another angle of reflection...for consideration along with yours and others'ideas here.

quote:

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1. Does Lazaris make us stronger in living life physically?

---

I would say no, but I would also ask why would someone expect this? How can a teacher of any type "make" someone live physical life more soundly? Isn't that up to us? Maybe it is just your choice of words. Maybe you are asking if Lazaris' intent was to enhance our physical life, or to take away from it?

On the tape, Living Magically Every Day , Lazaris advocates meditating at least once-a-day, but no more than five times a day. They go on to say that meditating more than five times a day is called "avoidance", and that (paraphrase from here), if you find yourself doing that, then you would be better served by getting up off your whatever and going out and DOING something to improve your life.

Like other earlier work, this doesn't sound like bad advice, but because I no longer care what Lazaris thinks about meditation, I would not consider altering my meditation practice just because they advocate it. It you were a close friend of mine, I would counsel you to consider a balance between meditation that is effective for you, and physical action to make the life that YOU WANT.

I mention this, because some of the writing that I see here lately makes me suspicious that some are still basing their spiritual decision-making on what Lazaris taught. If you choose the opposite of Lazaris merely because Lazaris taught it, then you are still in effect, giving away your power to Lazaris. We have to make our own choices based on our own heart, head and soul.

Personally, I think that meditation is a wonderful enhancement to my life. I started meditating at age 17, and at the very LEAST have enjoyed benefits of mental clarity and rest and most often much more than that.

I have enhanced my reality and manifestation capability through meditation. I have helped others help themselves through meditation (you may translate that: through sending love and healing intent to another in meditation, some have CHOSEN to receive that love for what it is, and using it toward their own healing ability, heal themselves perhaps more quickly, perhaps more easily. Even if you want to reduce that experience to nothing more than a telepathic hug received and accepted, then bravo the human brain, and bravo meditation).

I don't know all the reasons why others meditate, but most meditators that I personally know use it as a life enhancement, and not a crutch or escape. Of course, one can always abuse anything as an escape from self and doing.

I don't see how Lazaris or anyone else's advocacy of meditation should impact ones own sound meditation practice, or in any way cause one to look on physical life as "less than". I never got the read from Lazaris that meditation was a more elegant way to live life.

quote:

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2.Does he help us prefer what is good for us?

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Some consider Peny's death as evidence that Lazaris didn't help her make good choices in her life. I see Peny's death as evidence that although she knew better, and so did others around her, she didn't make better choices regardless, and that is the mystery to me.

Again, I don't know why any of us would look to Lazaris to help us prefer what is good for us, or to help us make choices. Lazaris advocated using your free will and choice to change your life for the better, and I thinkthat is good advice, regardless of where it comes from. As an aspiring metaphysician, wouldn't you naturally tend to prefer what is good for you? We might look at what any source recommends and/or teaches to see if there are techniques or approaches that work for us that will help us to make better choices, but we do I up to us.

I have a suspicion that, not only did Jach & team study metaphysics, but they had access to some pretty bright minds in a psychology or psychiatric practice as well.

Not too long ago, I read a letter (here-I think Katie posted it) from a FOL that billed himself as having helped all kinds of people in his counseling practice (or some such thing) using Lazaris techniques. Not once did this person assert the authenticity of Lazaris, only that the techniques were psychologically sound (in so many words), and that they worked.

That made me suspicious that perhaps this person could have had some involvement in perfecting and testing certain effective techniques, and to tell you the truth--and this point has surfaced here over and over again--a lot of the Lazaris stuff is found elsewhere in sound and effective practice with slightly different presentation, and works quite well.

The point that remains valid, IMHO, is that C:S attempted to use SOME workable, effective technique couched in a love bomb presentation, to encourage dependency. THAT, to me is the main point...not if Lazaris helped us prefer what is good for us. (?)

Getting back to the Peny point, I don't see Peny's death as proof that Lazaris techniques were shit across the board. I see Peny's death as a personnel choice to end up like she did. Period. Anything else that we suppose is value judgment and/or a personal assessment of facts that we know second hand (and we don't know all of them) combined in some cases with conjecture.

I agree that based on what we do know, one can venture fairly plausible conclusions regarding Peny's situation, and that we can also decide that there are enough unanswered questions that we feel uncomfortable looking toward Lazaris material for further study. Still, that doesn't mean that what Peny DIDN'T use, or even what she did wouldn't work or not work for others.

That said, I don't see how it is possible to answer question #2 with a global authority. I have heard testimonial after testimonial on how CERTAIN Lazaris techniques worked for people, and also how CERTAIN techniques did not work well, or worse, turned out to be bullshit. I have heard stories of success, and stories of anger, and stories of folks giving away all their power to the technique, or wasting time and money with something that didn't work, instead of using the technique to enhance their personal power, or doing something else that did work.

I cannot verify any of these stories (only my own) but I have already acknowledged in other posts that there is enough disturbing about the whole thing that I no longer feel any attraction to any of it, and pefer to study other material, and practice other technique.

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3.Is it arrogant to "rise above reality" and look upon physical consensus reality with suspicion instead of experiencing deeply the rich experience of everyday life?

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The question appears to query in general terms, rather than strictly from the Lazaris material perspective. My interpretation of the Lazaris approach to mapmaking and reality creation is that one was encouraged to create more loving and empowering "realities" in this illusion--Maya, if you will--as well as psychic maps in the "more real" (Seth talks about these in the context of a greater, multidimensional reality, but I won't' get into detail here) through meditation techniques that pave a sort of dimensional field to make it easier for others to hook up to more loving realities and psychic experiences.

The whole idea, as I understood it, was that mapmakers would take a risk by forging ahead and doing some work in this way, and then they give the credit to their greater/higher/inner self, and NOT their ego, thus not inflating the ego to manic and panic states. Mapmakers supposedly enhance the consensus reality by making choices not perhaps considered mainstream by a majority of the consensus, but not that are not 'above' the consensus ...just different and hopefully in the expansive sense. This in no way precludes that others would not have done the same things, had they known about the choices. This didn't mean that mapmakers are some how better (that is an interpretation made by the individual ego). That would be like saying that a dog breeder who bread the first Australian Shepherd is better than the breeders after her who love the breed and work to enhance and perpetuate it. Again, a silly ego distinction.

That was my interpretation; other's had a different assessment. Again, to me, most of it was marketing, and although I didn't perceive any 'better than' in the marketing, I understand how it could have had that effect on some folks.

Also, Jach and Peny have asserted that there were mapmakers out there that knew nothing of Lazaris, and yet were making new maps out of their own creativity and spirituality. Whether they wanted others to believe that or not, it was a good balance to the idea that somehow FOLs were superior because they were automatically mapmakers or something.

Now, while I don't buy into the 'mapmaker' thing, I do believe that there are different kinds of awareness...almost 'types' of consciousness, if you will, that are suited to certain things more than others...none of these types would claim any superiority over another, only a slight difference.

It is possible in my view, that certain 'types' of consciousness...beyond personality type and enneagram drive...are attracted to incarnations at this time in history, and also to metaphysics. Attracting people to the label Mapmaker probably worked quite well as a manipulation on some of these folks, and although I was resistant to the label mapmaker, since it didn't "go to my head" or make me feel like I was part of some advance group, I considered it a fairly harmless way of naming FOL's. Again, I am not sure that doesn't mean that some people are not in some way 'inclined', but NOT SPECIAL in that they are somehow inclined toward exploring the psychic uknown, meditation, healing, etc.

Anyway, the idea of specialness is a based on false beliefs held by the ego, IMHO. However, the idea of a consciousness having certain PREFERENCES and desiring to explore talent and love through an ehanced view of reality and spirituality is to me, entirely plausible.

Having the later corrupted and co-opted by a false spiritual premise and a label is possible and a tragic, but one shouldn't feel flawed that they possess a mechanism that attracted them to it. Nor should one abandon their spiritual search and or techniques that some clever marketing branded as inherent in those labeled "Mapmaker". So what if Lazaris calls FOLs mapmakers? Does that mean that you have to stop your interest in spirituality and meditation and exploring other worlds and dreaming for yourself and others??? Not me!

Looking at the question in general-not strictly from the Lazaris standpoint-I don't think that one necessarily has to look "down" on all or even part of the consensus reality in order to choose something different for one's self. One is part of the consensus no matter what.

How one chooses and acts outwardly within the consensus is one set of choices, how one feels and relates to the inner self and to the Divine while in the midst of the consensus is another set of choices. Neither removes you from the consensus, IMHO, but can modify your experience within it.

For example, I would not consider Yogananda as above the consensus, yet look at how he functioned within it! Do you sense from reading any of Yogananda's works, that he looked down on the consensus, even as he recommended a spirituality to lift those in other ways (including himself) that were a part of it? Look at the amazing life that he led, and how he impacted others! We could use examples of the opposite polarity, but why bother? To me, when we speak of the consensus view, we are speaking of an median of awareness and actualization that we are looking to surpass and grow beyond (not necessarily above), and not a permanent condition of humanity or a humanity that we aspire to consider ourselves above and apart from. As more and more of humanity reaches and grows, the bar of the consensus will rise, and the meaning of extended and reaching will also expand.

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4. Does he create a disatisfaction that is unhealthy?

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Can another influence your expectations? Absolutely! Are you the one that makes the ultimate determination of whether to buy in or not? Absolutely!

Another thing: one can alter expectations of another quite comfortably, without altering "expective intent". Expective intent is what I call the kind of expectation that one uses when one is willing something to happen...intending it with the expectation of succeeding. One can use this type of expectation for the best possible outcome, while not entertaining wildly unrealistic expectations of the outcome itself. Even Lazaris warned against trying reality creation to create something that you couldn't reasonably expect success at.

Also regarding your answer, some folks' personality types are such that they tend to dwell a bit too much on the past, some to dwell a bit too much on the future...thus escaping the now (and one would assume, discomfort). I am of the later. Without awareness of my tendency, and a conscious effort (With practice, I am now much better at it) to bring things back to the present, I can make mistakes and miss out on right now.

That didn't some from Lazaris, and was with me always. However, on the Lazaris forum, I did first hear about the enneagram, which I have studied for years, and which has proved incredibly valuable to me in working with ego and drive and personal relationships, and staying more in the 'now'. (I also highly recommend books on mindfulness by Thich Nhat Hanh).

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5. Is the imagery and idealism of the meditations against the physical senses and good living? (Lazaris has never been physical, and has recently commented on how happy he is with that decision. Is that a put-down for us beings who are physical?)

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6. Is Lazaris grounded in life instincts?

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7. Is it a way of life or a mind set, philosophy, mind-f*ck?

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Neither, IMHO...it was a collection of metaphysical and psychological concepts and techniques-some sound and some not-that were very well marketed and presented with love bombing as a spoon full of sugar. If Jach and Company are truly fakes and C:S is a bunch of weasles (sure looks that way at times) then their rationalization for going ahead with deception was probably that they were "helping people".

While the later in some cases was true, it does not justify the former. I don't know about "mind-f*ck". I dislike the term not only for the aesthetic ugliness, but because it severely generalizes some pretty complex experiences and doesn't seem convey enough real meaning in conversation. Maybe you would call the senario I described as that, but I don't know. It was a shitty thing to do that actually did help some people; and some folks got hurt too. That is about as strong as I would get right now.

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8. Does it help us have a life of living unity between god/ess and humankind? Is there a hatred of reality being fostered?

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Again, I believe this is all up to you & I. You can use technique and belief to enhance your relationship with "higher" portions of yourself and the Divine...or set things up as an escape from same. As for unseen friends and higher self or whatever...I don't see why I have to deny my higher self or help from astral teachers in order to have some kind of direct wire to the Divine, or vice-versa. We are part of the Divine. A lot of our spirituality is uncovering, honoring and actualizing that. So if our higher selves or astral teachers assist in that actualization, they assist there own actualization as well, no?

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9.Isn't the way of dying an example that speaks volumes? Does Lazaris promise everything and deliver nothing?

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I don't know about "speaks volumes". All we know is the Peny made choices that some of us wouldn't have. If you really think it through, that about honestly sums up what we know from the death.

We *suspect* that if Lazaris was real and if Peny had access to Lazaris healing and technique and all, then she wouldn't have died in such a way. Some might have added expectation that if Lazaris' love was real, then Peny would have had more reason to live . This is not an unreasonable suspicion, but to use it as the basis of broader assumptions about the nature of reality, the value of meditation-even if Lazaris is real or not-closes us off to thinking things through further.

It is one thing to speculate, wonder, and to have suspicion. It is another to leap to broad assumptions based on partial facts, and then leap to judgments that serve at the most to assuage our discomfort at originally believing something that most of us have had to admit we now see as fraudulent at best, and harmful at worst.

To my way of thinking, Peny actually DID have access to a shitload of viable, valuable knowledge and technique--whether it cam from Lazaris or not--that she evidently did not take advantage of , or couldn't. We have already talked about the validity of Jach co-opted metaphysical and psychological technique. Additionally, not ALL of the diet and health advice that Peny ventured on the forums was negative, dangerous or flawed...some was actually workable and beneficial...so she did have access to, or knowledge of, better choices than she made. That didn't help her. That is what I wonder about.

Just what was Lazaris supposed to "deliver" anyway, but information that it was up to us to use to our advantage. Another Lazaris quote: "Nothing changes unless you do". Bullshit entity or not, that is a hell of thing to keep in mind.

If anyone was expecting Lazaris to save them, I suspect that they have had a farther fall than if they were going at it for helpful technique that was up to them to use as proved out effective for *them*. If anyone were expecting to bask in the love of Lazaris and that love was going to solve life for them, I would suggest that they start loving themselves as much as they imagined Lazaris would, and then find someone or something else and love that at least as much. Then they would probably forget all about Lazaris.

-Dagaz

Wow, that's some post!

I'm on the run, but in scanning through I noticed that you mention meditation, and wondered if you define the Lazaris "meditations" to actually be that.

I've been thinking about writing a post about this myself, and wondered about your thoughts since you mentioned it.

For the record, I do not and never did regard those as meditations. I used to call them "guided visualizations". Now I call them "unauthorized, illegal, hypnotic, mind assaults".

I'll catch up with the rest of your post later.

Katie

Another quickie, because the end of your post caught my eye.

I don't think anyone here was expecting any more from Lazaris than what was promised by the Orb himself.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've noticed that you seem to be doing a bit of mind reading here, such as when you hypothesized that Ted and I are believers in scarcity, which we are firmly not.

Am I reading you correctly that you are thinking that the possible problem here is that most of us had false expectations about the promises made by Lazaris, and therefore our problems with Con:Sin, Lazaris, et. al are of our own making?

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Some consider Peny's death as evidence that Lazaris didn't help her make good choices in her life. I see Peny's death as evidence that although she knew better, and so did others around her, she didn't make better choices regardless, and that is the mystery to me.

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The main issue raised here is that Lazaris claimed that Peny DID make all the best choices. Lazaris and Jach also lied about the circumstances of her death. The implications of those false claims are of great interest to many of us.

I think you really minimize the discussion by stating that the primary issue here is that the L materials didn't work for Peny.

A lot has been written here specifically about why some of us don't believe the techniques work, or that the information is coming from the source as claimed.

I'm getting the feeling that we're getting a Con:Sin inspired lecture about why we're losers and should let the whole thing go. I hope not. That would be a terrible insult to all of us, not to mention a complete dismissal of the thousands and thousands of posts written here that discuss our reasons for continuing to think about Lazaris, and for putting the hairy eyeball on the materials.

Be back later, I hope you are too.

Katie

I spent some time beginning to address each of your points but then I decided not to bother. The basis of your argument seems to be 'I didn't get that, I didn't feel that' with an implication that those who did are somehow in ego.

I am happy for you that you believe you didn't get trapped but find the assumptions you make about why others did and people 'abandoning spirituality' and judgements about the line of questioning rather odd. Your arguments are spurious and some of your paraphrasing of the material is rather at odds with my own memories.

I also find your spiritual lecturing rather tedious. I'm sure you will have all kinds of 'insights' about what this says about me but I just don't care.

I think you're partially divorcing the methods of presentation from the material presented (although the material itself is rife with contradictions and cross-messages) and I think WA's questions addressed the impact of both--did Lazaris create an atmosphere conducive to embracing the here and now, the physical world, etc., and do the ideas themselves similarly promote the same focus?

As well, I disagree that police reports, a medical examiner's investigations and direct quotes from Jach and Lazaris are "second hand" sources--can't get much closer to the horse's mouth than that.

On a different note, it's interesting that November's focus for the Lazarians is the energy of "Trust" (my, my, what a surprise that it's not curiosity, discernment or truth.)

(Enjoyed your post, btw, even though I disagreed with many of your conclusions.)

flo

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Originally posted by Katie:
[B]Hi Dagaz,

I don't think anyone here was expecting any more from Lazaris than what was promised by the Orb himself.

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I guess that I wasn't one of the ones that heard a lot of promises. I heard a lot about ME doing something about my own life using Lazaris techniques, and that if I used them, they would work. Some worked; some didn't.

Then I heard a promise-over and over again--that Lazaris would love us...as long at there was light blah, blah.

Those are the two I remember clearly. There may have been others, but perhaps I didn't give a shit about them, so they didn't affect me.

I understand people feeling let down about not getting the promised, eternal love from a self-proclaimed point of light, but the rest of the stuff was there for evaluation. If it worked, it worked, if it didn't, everyone had a chance to walk away. Many did. Ted said himself in one of his posts that if there wasn't truth in some of what Lazaris was putting out there, then a bunch of intelligent people (like you, Ted, and yours truly for example), wouldn't have wasted a thought in their direction.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've noticed that you seem to be doing a bit of mind reading here, such as when you hypothesized that Ted and I are believers in scarcity, which we are firmly not.

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I don't have to mind-read. With you and Ted, I thought I sensed something, I mentioned it, you clarified.

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Am I reading you correctly that you are thinking that the possible problem here is that most of us had false expectations about the promises made by Lazaris, and therefore our problems with Con:Sin, Lazaris, et. al are of our own making?

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You have a suspicion, I will clarify: No one had FALSE expectations, they merely agreed to, or established their OWN expectations based on what they heard and wanted to believe (we chose our beliefs and attitudes right?), and so who placed the highest expectations on what Lazaris/Jach said the would deliver, and invested the most emotionally, financially, etc., are the ones most honked off at how things turned out.

The ones that maintained the greatest sense of self and tempered expectations and were less vulnerable to the high school politics of Peny and company (I wasn't part of that, but I will take the word of others that were) were less affected, perhaps.

My point is that people can talk at us all they want, and WE choose what to believe and then WE choose what we will expect.

This is good news! Otherwise, we could get fucked again and again without having a say.

None of it is a reason to self-blame or get all screwed up. We have plenty of great metphysical resources in many cases superior to anything that C:S was throwing out there.

That is where I am coming from.

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The main issue raised here is that Lazaris claimed that Peny DID make all the best choices. Lazaris and Jach also lied about the circumstances of her death. The implications of those false claims are of great interest to many of us.

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Here's what these facts do for me: they make me suspicious that something is wrong with the whole C:S deal and that Lazaris isn't what they say they are. Based on these facts, I no longer trust Jach or anything that C:S publishes. Based on these facts, I no longer practice Lazaris techniques.

Beyond that, they don't interest me further. I don't hold anyone in a poorer light because they do find it interesting, I just don't need any more evidence or research to convince me that my choices for metaphysical philosophy and technique should no longer include anything from C:S.

If new information comes out, depending on what it is, I might again find myself interested, but for now, I will leave that ground for others to work over.

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I think you really minimize the discussion by stating that the primary issue here is that the L materials didn't work for Peny.

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So one can merely conclude that everything that came from Lazaris mouth was shit, just because Peny ended up as she did.

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A lot has been written here specifically about why some of us don't believe the techniques work, or that the information is coming from the source as claimed.

I'm getting the feeling that we're getting a Con:Sin inspired lecture about why we're losers and should let the whole thing go. I hope not. That would be a terrible insult to all of us, not to mention a complete dismissal of the thousands and thousands of posts written here that discuss our reasons for continuing to think about Lazaris, and for putting the hairy eyeball on the materials.

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I would disappoint you. I don't have any of that in mind.

--Dagaz

Thanks for your comments. I won't make any judgements about you. The general feeling that I get from your posts, however, is that you probably think that you are less powerful than you are. (That is meant as a supportive statement, and not a sarcastic one.)

I don't know if this is what you are intending, so it could be that I am just not getting what you are intending.

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I didn't feel that' with an implication that those who did are somehow in ego.

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I don't think of people as being "in" or "out" of ego.

I know that sometimes I give my ego a little too much power and most times I support my ego by sensing the other parts of who I am.

When I do the later, I feel more powerful and make better choices. When I do the former, I look outside a lot for reasons for success and failure instead of looking inward at my resources, and my reality doesn't seem as fun or to work as well.

When I things are working right, I like my ego, and don't need to be "in" it or "out" of it, because it is a part of my seamless consciousness that is quite useful for what it is.

Does it work that way for you???

I am sorry that you don't like it when I am on a soapbox. Your admonishment was useful, in that I really should watch that.

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I think you're partially divorcing the methods of presentation from the material presented (although the material itself is rife with contradictions and cross-messages)

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You are right. I see the presentation as a separate issue from the content, although they worked together with other factors to produce a gestalt with a real shitty outcome for a lot of people.

I think that it is useful to deconstruct things a bit, if for nothing more than the fact that while I agree that there were contradictions and cross-messages, often one side of those mixups had something worthwhile that made enough sense to folks that they bought the whole deal for a while. And also, there were thoughts and techniques that were effective to a point.

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and I think WA's questions addressed the impact of both--did Lazaris create an atmosphere conducive to embracing the here and now, the physical world, etc., and do the ideas themselves similarly promote the same focus?

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As well, I disagree that police reports, a medical examiner's investigations and direct quotes from Jach and Lazaris are "second hand" sources--can't get much closer to the horse's mouth than that.

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There is a lot of conjecture about how Peny could get the way she was when she died. I wasn't there for any of that, so everything that I get is second-hand. Also, I don't know anyone here that works for C:S (but I am new so I may have missed that)-and the closest that I have seen as a regular partner/friend was Brad...and he didn't give us anything that was meaningful as to why Peny ended up the way she did...so you see my point...we have the reports on WHAT happnened, and we know that there was deceit, but what else do we KNOW.

Thanks for reading and I am glad that you enjoyed reading my long, long, long post.

(even if you did disagree!)

-Dagaz

I would like to comment on what I sometimes sense in your posts.

I do not think there is an issue about you being on a soapbox. It is more an issue with the "I see, think or know things that you don't" tone. It's kind of a fatherly tone.

Your statement to Ali, "The general feeling that I get from your posts, however, is that you probably think that you are less powerful than you are" is one example that I interpreted as having this tone. Another example is your response to me in the "bankrupt" thread: "Thinking about how we create our own reality certainly can get complex and confusing at times. Personally though, I no longer have any difficulty believing that we create en masse, as well as individually. "

Unfortunately, such tone will set off more warnings than perhaps is usual because of the sensitivity many have from feeling violated by Lazaris' authority and cult-like nature.

Feel free to post in whatever style you want, but in turn I hope you understand why we have some of our reactions.

Of course, I recognize and apologize for the hypocrisy inherent in this post.

I enjoy your posts even if I don't agree with every point you make.

Thanks for your post. I appreciate it and I know a lot of thought went into it. I want to write much more than I have time to do since I am currently moving, so will try to give it the attention it deserves as I can find the time.

One quick thing, though, without going into specifics, is that your comments seem to treat the Lazaris experience as if it were a course or class whose material we pick through and choose as it suits us. For most of us it wasn't about that, but about a relationship that was shattered. Lazaris, in the blendings and meditations, most definitely (in ways that I'm still looking at) encourages us to love him. Receiving his love, giving him our worries and health issues, allowing him to intervene in ways "we can't understand" on our behalf, going through doors he opens, meeting beings and our higher selves through his introductions, letting his energy into our energy field with trust vulnerability....this is anything but about the techniques and material. It is about a love relationship. And if you've ever had one end, you know it's not only about deciding to take responsibility and decide what to get out of it, you know the emotional trauma and pain involved that must be healed and released.

That is why I wanted to explore whether Lazaris might be a malevolent entity...not because of the material, but because of the terrible karma and ill intent of someone who would willfully deceive within the context of a love relationship.

Lazaris encouraged us to think, act, be, love, talk, play, and work in certain subtle but powerful ways on a level that made it seem an imperative to our spiritual path. It is not about having too high of expectations or wanting anyone to do something for us, it is in the context of loving someone and then we find out who we love is nothing like what they say they are. How would you feel? If it were simply the material, how easy to walk away from it and decide it's not for me. But if it's about love, then I must transform this into something that deepens my trust in myself and helps me to see more clearly who I am.

Some may be saying that I was not deceived, that I am rejecting his love, that I am running my "love myth" on him, that I am throwing away my spirituality or am in negative ego, that I have chosen a mediocre future because I am projecting crap onto Lazaris.

So explain to me why Lazaris didn't say ANY of what you said to us about Peny's death? Explain to me how it is that Peny was such a magician and loving light. And let me know why the secrecy and silence is so important. It is a far greater stretch for me to rationalize away Peny's discrepant death than to come to the conclusion Lazaris is something other than what he says. And then put this in the context of a loving, trusting relationship and it becomes much more than simply picking and choosing what works and what doesn't.

wonderingallowed

[This message has been edited by wonderingallowed (edited 11-08-2001).]

You wrote:

"I think that it is useful to deconstruct things a bit, if for nothing more than the fact that while I agree that there were contradictions and cross-messages, often one side of those mixups had something worthwhile that made enough sense to folks that they bought the whole deal for a while."

But I think any deconstruction has to examine the flashpoint between the presenter and what was presented; separating Lazaris from the Lazaris material gets iffy in that the punch of the material came from the way Lazaris presented himself--a caring, loving friend who would never lie, who also possessed knowledge superior to that of humans by virtue of being "outside the set" of physical reality.

Take that away and you've got just another pop psychology author pushing a "Seven Steps to Wealth" or a "Remember Your Spirit" book, a Tony Robbins or Maryann Williamson clone instead of a superior spiritual being not subject to the laws of time and space and untainted by the human failings that come with all human teachers & preachers.

Once you start looking at that, then I think the eye you bring to the material becomes more piercing as to how much value the material actually has, stripped of its "magikal" provenance.

You wrote:

"And also, there were thoughts and techniques that were effective to a point."

Well, how do we measure that? People keep saying that there's value in the material, but where's the proof? Certainly, there are very ancient ideas embedded in the material, but how do we measure the effectiveness of *this* version of those ideas?

I've not sensed that people (and I'm not placing you in this category, just riffing here) who defend the material have really sat down and thought, "Am I measurably better off today than I would have been without this material? Am I happier, healthier, more loving, more succesful, more tolerant of those with differing viewpoints spiritually, socially and politically? Have I reached the goals I set for myself two months ago, five years ago, even the first time I sat down to program something? Am I still programming for a parking space or have I moved beyond that, well into a kind of reality creation that would make sense after X amount of years devoted to pursuing any other complex discipline?"

Even Maslow, earthbound entity that he was, found a way to examine the qualities and visible signs of a human being living a creative and successful life, yet people who have been studying Lazaris for years can offer nothing but vague statements of self discovery that seemingly lead to no measurable manifestaion of their evolved inner states. In a practical, hands on way, what does that say about the actual value of the material?

Just because we're dealing with matters of personality and spirit doesn't mean that there's no way to assess a "real world" value--if you spent ten years visiting a therapist only to find yourself still dealing with the same things you began your first session with, you'd be hard pressed to find a sane person suggesting that there was "value" in *that* particular form of therapy.

You wrote:

"..we have the reports on WHAT happnened, and we know that there was deceit, but what else do we KNOW."

What else do you feel you need to know that you don't?

flo

You wrote:

"That is why I wanted to explore whether Lazaris might be a malevolent entity...not because of the material, but because of the terrible karma and ill intent of someone who would willfully deceive within the context of a love relationship."

Jade wrote something a few months ago that I think perfectly sums up Lazaris's true interaction with his "friends":

"A perspiring, goofy grinned spook in human drag, having a bit of genius for presentation of unverifiable material in a tired and true format. An audience bringing a whole lot of trust, credulity and invested expectation. An intimate moment in a submissive position, the gift of a personal polished pebble. "Just you, just us."

You wrote:
The general feeling that I get from your posts, however, is that you probably think that you are less powerful than you are. (That is meant as a supportive statement, and not a sarcastic one.)

Just a couple of questions:
1. How powerful do I think I am?
2. How powerful am I?

I understand that you intend to be supportive, but the statement you made really suggests that you think you know a whole lot more about me than I do about myself.

You have never even met me. Do you have some 'special' knowledge I should be aware of?

ali

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I noticed that you mention meditation, and wondered if you define the Lazaris "meditations" to actually be that.

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For the record, I do not and never did regard those as meditations. I used to call them "guided visualizations". Now I call them "unauthorized, illegal, hypnotic, mind assaults".

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Gee Katie,

I guess the most honest thing that I can tell you is that depends on the individual too.

I am not trying to get evasive here. Since I was meditating years before Lazaris, I knew how to get to that state without counting down or anything. So although I followed countdowns and such, I always ended up in a state of mind that was the restful alertness of mediation, from which I could do visualization, techniques, whatever.

I never relinquished control, but I have fallen asleep a few times. Except for once or twice, and two evenings that I went to, I customarily listened to a L mediation before trying it, to make sure that what was in it was OK with me.

At the evenings, I could never fully relax for the mediations, and a part of me was always watching for something I might not want to do.

I don't know why I am that way, and at times I compared myself to others that were more committed and open with regard to Lazaris love , etc., and thought of myself on several occasions as kind of chicken to dive in like others that I noticed were so trusting.

Now I am grateful that I had resistance.

Recognize that I am not making a judgment here. That is how I am wired, that's all. Thinking about it, this same skepticism and reluctance to allow quick intimacy or give up control has hurt me as well as helped me. I have a lovely marriage of 23+ years, and a few close friends and relatives, but I don't get intimate easily, and I thank friends and relatives for their patience. It takes time with me, and I think that in this instance this saved me from getting too trusting of all the love bomb shit.

The blendings were another thing entirely. There was no counting and I didn't go to my meditative state for those. However, I did go through a sequence with Lazaris, during which I really thought that I felt energy of some kind.

It is a little creepy now to think of what the hell that was. I prefer to think (hope) that it was either merely the suggestion to my imagination, or my higher self/oversoul filling a role of protection/impersonation so that I would not get hurt and might actually benefit.

I never felt negative after a blending, but it took me months and months of looking at others that tried--to see if I thought they were unbalanced or something--before I would venture with one myself.

One more thing...double tetrahedron-Jodie Foster in "Contact"-sacred goemetry-navigation of the Universe and Lemuria aside, spinning geometry in one's head probably does set off certain neuropeptides or something...I have tried this, and certain cells must get activated and chemicals must get released as I notice a real difference in mental acuity and sharpness after doing that one (I wasn't really interested in reducing myself to a non-local quantum phenomena...so I just did it for the mental effect.

Bottom line: 1)I experienced a lot of what Lazaris did as mediation, but we could easily agree that was because of my approach. 2)Blendings were weird.

--Dagaz