You wrote:

"The information was given in a timely fashion and corroborated by those who cared enough to bother."

My memory is foggy on this, but didn't you post something soon after the suicide pact encouraging people to call the cops in Florida, in order to get more information about Peny's death?

And (this memory I verified, with a site search) justfacts posted the phone number of the Orange County Sheriff's department, also encouraging people to call the police; posters or lurkers wondering about Penny and Michael's deaths didn't even have to look up the phone number in order to satisfy their curiosity, all they had to do was *call it*.

Regardless, if people care enough to doubt the sincerity of your comments, they might want to care a bit more about determining the veracity of Lazaris' claims instead-- after all, there's much more spiritually at stake for them if Lazaris is lying, than if you are.

flo

You Wrote,

"Actually, the information wasn't withheld, it was judiciously given to those to whom I thought it would matter, those who can decipher a fact from an opinion."

As someone who has had this information from the beginning I am glad that you have finally posted it here.

I will repeat my question from months ago...Why is it so bad to question Lazaris? What harm would it do to anyone? If Lazaris truly is who they say they are, would they not welcome the open mindedness of questioning? They, 'The Being Without Ego' can not be harmed by human questioning. Right? They are beyond the need to be defended, are they not? And if the message they speak is 'Truth' then surely it could not be adversely affected by simple questioning.

Cheers,

It's nice to hear from you.

quote:

---

As someone who has had this information from the beginning I am glad that you have finally posted it here.

---

I guess so, but I must admit it isn't fun to be called a liar and have my motives and behavior questioned in return, or be told that I owed it to anyone to speak publicly against my own desire and judgement.

What it really boils down to is that some of us are actually interested in the facts and the truth because we take our spirituality seriously, and expect those who seek to enlighten or lead us to be truthful and straightforward. Clearly there are some who don't. We can blame that on cult indoctrination, mind control, or whatever, but in the end, we all still have the ability to be discriminating. No one can really take that away from us. It's a choice to think or not think, to be responsible or not be responsible.

quote:

---

I will repeat my question from months ago...Why is it so bad to question Lazaris? What harm would it do to anyone? If Lazaris truly is who they say they are, would they not welcome the open mindedness of questioning? They, 'The Being Without Ego' can not be harmed by human questioning. Right? They are beyond the need to be defended, are they not? And if the message they speak is 'Truth' then surely it could not be adversely affected by simple questioning.

---

Of course there is nothing wrong with questioning. I always wondered about this concept of "blasphemy", as though God or any wise and loving being is hurt by anyone's doubt, questioning, or even anger. If we are wrong the only hurt is self-inflicted.
Surely "Lazaris" is above worrying about us "negative-egos".

When my doubting began, I sincerely sought the guidance of my "forever and a day friend".

I got help in spades, but it was all in the form of "use your head".

So far, there have been no lightning bolts from the sky, just a fair helping of ire from those so fearful of the opinions of others that they believe they have the right to abuse as long as they sign it "peace and love."

You really have to wonder about people who upon hearing something they don't like immediately start screaming "shut up" and holding their hands over their ears.

Lava and Peas,

Katie

You wrote,

"I guess so, but I must admit it isn't fun to be called a liar and have my motives and behavior questioned in return, or be told that I owed it to anyone to speak publicly against my own desire and judgement."

I agree!

What I do not get is what certain people think your motive actually IS in this situation. Financial gain? Power over the masses? Got some tapes to sell us Katie?

Good Grief Charlie Brown!

What I see you doing is simply asking people to take a walk down the road of questioning and experience where it leads them. You, as a citizen of a democracy, have stated very clearly your right to question and journey through the thoughts and emotions that comes up during that questioning. Why people continue to feel threatened by this is beyond me. Obviously if Lazaris is who they say they are then there is no harm to them. So it must be that these people feel insecure in their beliefs. I mean if the big, baaaad Katie can come along and make you feel threatened....Goddess! Why do people invest so much energy in being angry with you? If they are truly secure with their beliefs than they would just make the passing comment that you are 'crazy' and leave it at that. If they find themselves feeling intense anger then I say they need to take a good look inside themselves for the reason.

You wrote,

"So far, there have been no lightning bolts from the sky..."

A quick update on my contact with the Orlando authorities.

I have been in email contact with one of the involved investigators. He initially said he could not comment further until his report is finished, which he estimates in about two weeks. I have emailed him some relevant information. Even if he decides to give me more information before then, my hands will most likely be tied as I have pledged to keep any information confidential unless he explicitly states I can use it.

There is a second investigator who hasn't yet returned my call left later in the afternoon today.

Cheers, Craig

Lynn, you said:

quote:

---

What I do not get is what certain people think your motive actually IS in this situation. Financial gain? Power over the masses? Got some tapes to sell us Katie?

---

I'm working on it Lynn. I'll be coming out soon as the New and Improved Most Powerful Magician in the Universe, as soon as I can get Ted's Latrinas costume finished.

Joking aside, this is really the root of the problem IMO. It seems that a lot of people have come here with the attitude, "OK, so if Jach and Peny aren't all their cracked up to be, what do you have to offer?"

When it became apparent that we weren't offering anything beyond information and the opportunity to discuss it, a lot of resentment and anger set in. I don't know that this was a conscious process on anyone's part, but it's a theory that I've evolved, having been here since the beginning, and having been a prime recipient of some of these charming responses.

The issue of authority became a highlight here almost from the beginning. A lot of people are looking for an authority to project all over, and any one who is willing to go into that business can make a whole lot of money for themselves, if they have enough savvy and hubris.

The question still keeps coming up as to why I didn't publicly share the all the information we've had.

There are a lot of reasons, many of them self-evident for anyone who can think past their own nose, but some are more subtle.

A big one is because we began to realize pretty early on that the real issue of substance here isn't whether or not Jach is a fake, it's why we never asked the harder questions, and what the hell was going on in our minds for so long that we just took this guy at face value.

The minute that some of us had even the slightest indication that Jach/Lazaris wasn't all they claimed to be, the big issue became "what about the materials, what about my beliefs and actions that have been influenced by them?"

Let's face it, people like Jach will always have explanations that will satisfy those who aren't willing to question the actual teachings themselves. As long as the word comes from this all wise entity, it's hard to dispute. We have no problem throwing out Jach, we don't have to like him..but we need the Orb...don't take away our Orb!!!

The only way to satisfy the question of the materials is to do the private personal work that is needed, and that has nothing whatsoever to do with Jach's interactions with the police or anything else.

As you may note, our questioning of Jach and Peny has not caused too much disagreement here, but our questioning of the belief system has...very much so. Even more so possibly has our discussion about cult indoctrination, mind control, psychological coercion, and emotional manipulation.

Let's face it, we've had multitudes of posts here which clearly reflect a cult mentality, and now we have a whole offshoot board dedicated to the denial of that. It's like an anti-cult awareness group. "Say anything, as long as it leaves me feeling safe and secure in my beliefs, especially my belief that I am a stellar and wonderfully powerful spiritual and loving person."

So, what I am left with is what difference would it make to expose Jach to the light of day fully and completely if the followers aren't interested or willing to respond beyond looking for the next groovy leader who will feed them the same line?

The last time I checked,our spirituality is very much a personal and individual process, but it would seem that some want to claim it without doing the private work. There is a huge need for someone to give out make-work and give them a big A+ and gold star on their homework. As long as there is light, there will always be a Lazaris to do that for anyone with an open checkbook and a closed mind.

Don't forget, it has been said that Jach benefitted nicely from the exposees about JZ Knight and Ramtha. She's still in business anyway, as is Sai Baba inspite of the enormous amount of proof that he is a child molester and complete fraud. The battle of the channels will continue.

Things to ponder as more information comes our way.

It will be interesting to watch, and more power to you Craig.

Katie

quote:

---

Regardless, if people care enough to doubt the sincerity of your comments, they might want to care a bit more about determining the veracity of Lazaris' claims instead-- after all, there's much more spiritually at stake for them if Lazaris is lying, than if you are.

---

Absolutely, that's what this is about, questioning the source of beliefs we have held, not worrying about why someone might raise them.

If the information and discussion that's already taken place on this site isn't enough for some people, I suspect nothing will ever be.

Remember how pissed off some kids got when they found out there was no Santa Clause? My own daughter once told me that she'll never forgive me for telling her!

I think there might be an army of disillioned and wounded ones walking around still trying to process that one! Who are we to throw a bucket of water on Lazaris? Dangerous stuff this!

Well, I tried to exonerate myself by introducing her to Lazaris, but she figured that one out on her own before Ted and I did.

After the Orion epic she couldn't bring herself to go back.

Cheers to all who know when to scratch an itch!

Sometimes it's just amazing how people end up finding this site.

Today someone got here by typing in "Save the NLP bullshit for another day" into Google.

We even come up on some searches for porn. Go figure that one out!

We also used to have a regular reader who alternated between this site and some porn site that was for some reason linked here. I guess he/she found us to be fun to wank to, or maybe we could say that at least one of our readers is a jerkoff.

Just thought I'd share some of the interesting little tidbits that Ted and I have access to via the logs.

That's weird, I don't know how I ended up posting in this thread, but it's a good one anyway so I'll leave it.

The posts are from almost exactly a year ago today. I honestly have no clue how I ended up posting in it. Must be some kind of "synchronicity".

What the hell does that mean anyway?

Ted and I were talking about that the other day, how it so often happens that something obscure will come up in conversation that we then see references to all over the place, or how we might be reading something and the exact words are simultaneously coming out of the TV or something.

I know Liezaris makes a big deal out of all of that, but what we were discussing is that even though it's always interesting and noteworthy, what actual benefit comes out of it?

Now, if I could have a synchronicity where while I was paying my bills and wishing they would all go away and suddenly they all showed zero balances, that might make synchronicities really interesting.

Otherwise I think it's just one more little thing that Jachass blows out of proportion and charges money to talk about.

This is the thread that came up for the "NLP bullshit" surfer.

It's still a good one though. There must be some meaning to it all.

If anyone creates a miracle as a result of this please do let us know immediately.

You wrote:

quote:

---

Now, if I could have a synchronicity where while I was paying my bills and wishing they would all go away and suddenly they all showed zero balances, that might make synchronicities really interesting.

---

Doesn't Jach claim to do that all the time? Something about discovering more money in his account than he actually should have? Mind you, an honest person would report the discrepancy to the bank. But, I guess if you program "with harm to none", then you don't have to worry about the bank losing money.

So, when the judge asks you why you spent the bank's money, you need only reply that you were careful to include "with harm to none" in your programming, and she'll let you off. Unless she's in negative ego, of course. If so, one must be sure to point it out to her.

Yeah, you pointed out that little indiscretion to me awhile ago, but I don't think it ever got posted here.

How could Jachass find money in his account that the bank couldn't justify unless he kept his mouth shut about it?

The story never made any sense at all, especially since he claimed it was a significant amount of money.

We should have asked for documentation, but that of course would be "disrespectful".

None of these assholes who make claims like this are ever willing to provide any proof, we're just supposed to believe out of respect....or would that be idiocy?

BTW, this is a great thread if you haven't read through it again. At least I think it is. Maybe it's worth a revisit for some reason.

Great thread. I'm glad you revived it.

The first time I heard of NLP was on the liezaris tape, "Winning: New Tools To Get What You Really Want". Liezaris said they were going to "borrow" from Neuro Linguistic Programming. (borrow, hell)

He told us how to look with our eyes while we visualized what we wanted.

I felt disappointment that the techniques he gave on that tape were developed by a human. I wanted "magical" techniques to use from liezaris - a highly evolved consciousness.

I didn't have any luck with the NLP on that tape although I did work it quite a bit.

Katie, you wrote:

quote:

---

We also used to have a regular reader who alternated between this site and some porn site that was for some reason linked here. I guess he/she found us to be fun to wank to, or maybe we could say that at least one of our readers is a jerkoff.

---

Or maybe a jachoff. Maybe reading about jachass' phallic crystals is a turn on for them.

Katie, you wrote:

quote:

---

Just thought I'd share some of the interesting little tidbits that Ted and I have access to via the logs.

---

I like reading about those interesting little tidbits.

Katie, you wrote:

quote:

---

Ted and I were talking about that the other day, how it so often happens that something obscure will come up in conversation that we then see references to all over the place, or how we might be reading something and the exact words are simultaneously coming out of the TV or something.

I know Liezaris makes a big deal out of all of that, but what we were discussing is that even though it's always interesting and noteworthy, what actual benefit comes out of it?

---

I have wondered about this a lot. The only thing I do know is that I don't know near as much as I thought I did a year ago.

Ted, you wrote:

quote:

---

Doesn't Jach claim to do that all the time? Something about discovering more money in his account than he actually should have? Mind you, an honest person would report the discrepancy to the bank. But, I guess if you program "with harm to none", then you don't have to worry about the bank losing money.

---

Jachass said he always drew his abundance symbol on his checking account statement before he opened it up. He said there were always many large deposits on there he didn't make.

I thought about this a lot. First of all I didn't understand why he needed to create money this way. Liezaris was trying to convince us what an illusion money is and how easy it could be created.

I finally came to the misguided conclusion that if the deposits showed on the statement the bank would show the money had been deposited and they would not be out the money - or would they? Round and round I would go on this one.

If he wanted more money why didn't he just visualize his stocks going up?

Katie, you wrote:

quote:

---

None of these assholes who make claims like this are ever willing to provide any proof, we're just supposed to believe out of respect....or would that be idiocy?

---

I have to believe now that it was a lie so that we would believe we could create the money also.

I also clearly remember liezaris saying on an older tape that we could create winning the lottery.

When someone asked in the forum about why they couldn't win the lottery jachass said he guessed it had to do with their beliefs around gambling.

The reason I mention this is because I read on the lite site a long while back where someone said that you had to not only program but had to work at something to have the success.

That is not what the lying Orb said. He also said we could just "create" ten thousand dollars in our mailbox. I have to say my belief system was not great enough to believe I could do that without entering a contest to win that amount. Liezaris said if we could create one dollar we could create ten thousand dollars just as easily.

I heard liezaris once say, "Some of you can't program your way across the street". (laughter)

Jachass couldn't program his way down an Italian street without crashing into a wall.

Katie, you wrote:

quote:

---

BTW, this is a great thread if you haven't read through it again. At least I think it is. Maybe it's worth a revisit for some reason.

---

It definitely was worth the revisit.

Best wishes,

quote:

---

Round and round I would go on this one.

---

That was just your HS riding in her doublemindfuckahedron without telling you. The magic of creating checking account deposits out of thin air without disturbing the banks accounting system is just beyond your willingess that's all.

Of course the unanswered question still remains....if Jachass could program that well, how come he couldn't help out with a wee little healing for Peny? I mean, come on, even if he programmed the healing of one bitty lesion per day surely she could have cut back on the Blue Sky and codeine.

quote:

---

If he wanted more money why didn't he just visualize his stocks going up?

---

I'm sure he did that too. But, of course, we'll never see his portfolio or his checking account. It's easy enough to claim all these miracles, a bit less easy to verify them.

Given that Jachass is so happy about having frequent flyer miles for future bargain flights it would seem that money is an issue.

Or is money not an issue?

I wonder why he doesn't just magically manifest all the airline tickets he wants. Since he's such a powerful magician, I wonder why he doesn't just manifest airline tickets for everyone. Surely the airline would never notice.

I think the seminar attendees should lobby for first class tickets. After all...it's all just an illusion.

Hard to figure, huh?

quote:

---

I also clearly remember liezaris saying on an older tape that we could create winning the lottery.

---

I remember that discussion in the Forum too. It was one of those that contributed to my deconstruction process. Jachass was clearly discouraging of programming for a lottery win. I think he said it wasn't the most elegant way to manifest money because of the belief threshold vs the odds or some crap like that. But I guess all doubts about the possibility of manifesting miraculous checking account deposits is far easier for someone to overcome.

Jesus, none of this shit makes any sense the more you think about it! On what basis did any of us actually hold onto our beliefs in this pile of crap? I guess we wanted to. As Liezaris says, desire is an important piece of the puzzle. Too bad the completed puzzle ends up looking like the tail end of a hurricane over Jolene's trailer park if you squint real hard.

quote:

---

I heard liezaris once say, "Some of you can't program your way across the street". (laughter)

Jachass couldn't program his way down an Italian street without crashing into a wall.

---

LOL...Good one! Maybe we can successfully program an endless loop of reality where Dough-Boy spends the rest of eternity reliving that magical event.

Hell, when you think of it, what is Jachass' life but one big motorbike accident? Now to program for him to be the only one with the big concussion instead of his followers having to share in the delight.

Katie

Katie, you wrote:

quote:

---

if Jachass could program that well, how come he couldn't help out with a wee little healing for Peny? I mean, come on, even if he programmed the healing of one bitty lesion per day surely she could have cut back on the Blue Sky and codeine

---

Great point!! Another thing I was thinking about today was that jachass said on his vacation he first fell off of a bicycle THEN he ran into the wall with his motorbike.

Why in the hell didn't he process out the 'whispers' when he first fell off of his bike? Looks like to me it went into SHOUTS.

That's what liezaris said to do. Why doesn't he at least pretend to be doing the techniques?

you wrote:

quote:

---

I wonder why he doesn't just magically manifest all the airline tickets he wants. Since he's such a powerful magician, I wonder why he doesn't just manifest airline tickets for everyone. Surely the airline would never notice.

I think the seminar attendees should lobby for first class tickets. After all...it's all just an illusion

---

That would be great for the fols to have jachass manifest first class tickets for them and while he's at it why doesn't he see to it that their lodging is paid for so some of them don't have to sleep in their cars while attending the seminars?

Best wishes,

quote:

---

Great point!! Another thing I was thinking about today was that jachass said on his vacation he first fell off of a bicycle THEN he ran into the wall with his motorbike.

Why in the hell didn't he process out the 'whispers' when he first fell off of his bike? Looks like to me it went into SHOUTS.

That's what liezaris said to do. Why doesn't he at least pretend to be doing the techniques?

---

You know as well as I do that if it was some follower reporting these events in the Forum that everyone would be commenting on exactly that. The poor poster would be told that their reality was shouting at them and being advised to get to the root causes of the accidents before the shouts got louder.

Somehow it seems that it's assumed that Jachass is above it all, which is a clear testiment to the effectiveness of his not-so-subtle guru self-promotion scheme.

Jeez, Jachshit went from being referred to as "The Unit" by the Orb in the early days to now being worshipped as a spiritual guide in his own right.

There's some great magic and manifestation for ya. Right before our eyes we've seen an anonymous amorphous blob transmuted into a Stellar Shining Guru.

I guess some of the techniques do work. Too bad those aren't the ones that get shared with us though.

I guess we'll just have to keep exposing them here since Jachass is too greedy to share.

Katie

I wonder what the whisper is saying to someone who is crashing out in their car during an expensive seminar?

It sounds to me like "get a life".

you wrote:

quote:

---

I wonder what the whisper is saying to someone who is crashing out in their car during an expensive seminar?

It sounds to me like "get a life

---

Maybe it's CARMA...

Best wishes,

I just popped in for a peek and found this thread up. Wow seems like a life time ago that I was chatting to Jade about NLP. So much has happened.

Very interesting that you first heard about NLP from the Orb, Mickey! I do not remember that tape.

Well my family has just been through a month of hell with Kaydn. He was in the hospital 3Xs and had surgery. Too much...Any good thought sent our way would be welcomed.

Hope all my friends here on the Fool are well. I'll check in again sometime for updates.

you wrote:

quote:

---

Well my family has just been through a month of hell with Kaydn. He was in the hospital 3Xs and had surgery. Too much...Any good thought sent our way would be welcomed.

---

Prayers and good thoughts are on the way for Kaydn, you and your family.

Best wishes,

Long time no hear

quote:

---

Well my family has just been through a month of hell with Kaydn. He was in the hospital 3Xs and had surgery. Too much...Any good thought sent our way would be welcomed.

---

So sorry. You have my good thoughts for sure.

You can be assured that good thoughts are always coming your way from this neck of the woods. I think about you and Kaydn often, so it's really good to hear from you.

It's not good though to hear that you've all been going through it. I wish I did have a magic potion for all of you, I hate knowing that things aren't finally smoothing out as I know we were all hoping for the last time you posted.

It is really great of you to drop in though, I'm really glad you did.

If there's ever anything.....but you know...

My thoughts and prayers are with you, Kaydn, and your family.

I posted a note here last night and can't see it or any response to it on my computer. I tried shutting down my computer and reboot but it is still not there. It did arrive did it not? The posting count says so. None of my other posts had this problem

Did you post something after the original post at 6:30 PM to which there are several responses?

LOL..the problem is that if you can see this you can see everything above.

I have a feeling you need to refresh your browser each time you visit. That happens to me sometimes too, one of life's mysteries I guess, although I'm sure Craig or Ted or some other wiseguy could explain why.

Just so I don't sound too dumb, I know it has something to do with cache.

Please let us know if there was another post besides the 6:30 one.

Nice to see you again. I'm sorry to hear about Kaydn. Good thoughts are heading your way.

It's good to see you here again, though I am sad that you and yours have been through so much recently. My thoughts and prayers are being sent.

Thanks so much for the warm thoughts and prayers. I am on another computer than my own and just read your notes.

Kaydn has stablized and we are in a time of quiet. We are waiting for a transplant.

You never know when you'll hear from me again! Take care all!

Sorry for the belated response...I've been really busy lately. I'll definitely send positive thoughts your way.

Cheers, Craig