Lynn said,

quote:

---

The woman who I studied with for 10 years and introduced me to Lazaris, practiced and taught a system that completely incorporated NLP methods. That is why the Lazaris material fit so well into her practice. To be honest, I kinda thought everyone knew that Lazaris used
NLP.

---

Back in Jan. when I first realized that the Orb is not legitimate, I wondered about J/L using NLP as a technique to manipulate followers' minds. In fact I brought it up in an email to Katie, but wasn't able to find out much about it. (Most NLP internet sites are promoting programs, not explaining methods and intent. A large local bookstore had nothing to offer.)

Someone told me that it is the intentional delivery of a specific communication to the "core" of another individual.

Lynn, or anyone else, please post a brief explanation, help me fill in the blanks? Also, would you explain this for the uninformed,

quote:

---

That is why the Lazaris material fit so well into her practice.

---

I am wondering how does one deflect and/or deprogram NLP. Furthermore, is this something a supposedly all wise and loving spirit would excercise (or need to) on followers? I am concerned to know more about NLP in terms of if it is a questionable practice for a "guru." And for possibly expediting my own deprogramming.

Also Lynn, as far as "insulting Lazaris" goes, what a red flag for Jach's true nature. Anyway, the Orb is probably the most insulting thing I have ever exposed myself to.

Jade

As far as Lazaris' take on the Merlin / Arthur thing, it wasn't imo overly patriarchal. There's the working with ones "Lady" and "Knight", the Goddess plays a significant role also. I was so wary over the "it's the ONLY way" blurb that I was wary of the whole deal.

I'm a big fan of The Mists Of Avalon too.
Such great imagery and feeling. Yeah, wandering through those mists doesn't seem as bad as stumbling through a mind numbed fog.

Katie,

I really was thinking about what you said about the material discouraging us to be here now. That's so true. I felt encouraged to spend much time processing the past and programming the future. It feels good and right to enjoy life in my current awareness of it, with the processing and programming in perspective. Thanks for that though, it was a good reevaluation.

See ya later,

Oakspirit

Jade you wrote,

"Lynn, or anyone else, please post a brief explanation, help me fill in the blanks? Also, would you explain this for the uninformed."

Well here I sit, scratching my head. Where do I begin? It is complex. I do not know why I assumed that others knew Lazaris used NLP. This just demonstrates how much of a bubble I am in up here in Canada. Not many of the people I know ever go to Con:Sin workshops. We just worked with the tapes and books and talked amongst ourselves. Now that I think of it I would be very angry if someone was using NLP on me without my knowledge. To be honest Jade I am feeling a bit shocked. Just the fact that I thought everyone knew has me feeling very upset... "Why would anyone know Lynn, if they haven't been trained in it?"

OK to give you a bit of my background...I have been trained in a method of healing called Professional Kinesiology. It employs methods primarily from Applied Kinesiology (for further info go to…)

http://www.kinesiology.net/

but also incorporates almost every modality of healing you can think of. It is an open-ended system that allows the practitioner and client to create a session of healing called a 'balance'. (Meaning...to bring into balance.) The more modalities a practitioner knows the more tools they have in their toolbox.

Anyway, NLP is one of the modalities that we are train in during the training as a Professional Kinesiology Practitioner (PKP). We use methods of eye patterning, visualization and specific language to repattern the brain for a specific goal. We also observe verbal and body language and take a person through specific questioning. For example I might have someone come to see me that has been trying to lose weight forever. They have tried everything and nothing works. By using Applied Kinesiology (AK) and NLP I can assist them in finding out what belief is holding them back from their goal and help them repattern their behaviour by using specific language, visualizations and physical corrections. Lazaris never used the physical corrections because they're specifically AK.

So what did Lazaris do that was NLP? Go to

http://www.nlpinfo.com/

and read the 'Introduction to NLP', specifically the sections on
meta-model, metaprogram, sensory acuity, Milton-model, representational systems and submodalities.

I hope this is helping.

Now how do you reprogram yourself out of this mess? Personally I have been working with some of my friends who know how to reprogram.

I wish I could help you more. It would be easier for you to do the repatterning yourself if you had some background in this area. It really depends on what you want changed.

An example of how I did this on my own without any NLP techniques is the story of how I changed the belief that "I create my own reality and if I create one that is not elegant or that I don't want than I am in Negative Ego, Martyr, etc." That concept has been programmed in my head very well up until recently. How did I get it out there? I had a major spiritual crisis and blasted it out! But you may not want to have all kinds of crisis happening just to repattern your beliefs. I guess that's where something like NLP steps in.

A lot of it comes down to knowing what is hanging you up and chosing to do it differently. Sometimes this is easy and sometimes.....

Cheers, Lynn

quote:

---

We use methods of eye patterning, visualization and specific language to repattern the brain for a specific goal.

---

I'm thinking about this repatterning the brain, especially in terms of things we might not have been very aware of. From what I read on the NLP link and a couple of others, NLP is is known for it's "special hypnotic techniques, though not necessarily explicit hypnosis." Also of interest is the NLP practitioners learned skill in creating rapport (trust), and the ability to elicit emotional states.

I am curious about the special hypnotic techniques that are not explicit hypnosis. Can't find any examples. Is this something you learned about, or were aware of with the Orb?

I am just trying to better understand how and why so many intelligent, relatively sophisticated people got hooked on L for so many years. Especially how our trust was thoroughly gained and maintained, inspite of the abusive fear inducing forum and other clues.

quote:

---

Now that I think of it I would be very angry if someone was using NLP on me without my knowledge.

---

Probably most Orb followers don't know much about NLP, and were/are unaware that such techniques are used by J/L.

Thanks again for the information, maybe there is more we can sort out here.

I think this fits with NLP.

quote:

---

How many times have we heard in recent years Lazaris soothing and reassuring us that we are not "terrible and awful" not "stupid" when we fail to meet our goals.

Yes, I agree we are not "terrible and awful" or stupid. Who ever said we were???

It was a real eye opener for me to realize that when Lazaris is reassuring us about how we are "not" something [horrible, stupid, failure etc] he is actually conditioning us to believe we are.

---

Then, this one on love bombing,

quote:

---

Where is the evidence of all this love? Just because Jach/Lazaris says in a breathy longing voice how much they love us, we are to accept it

We have been conditioned to not question the quality or the fact of Lazaris love.

Yet where was all this love when Jach and Peny were conning people with tradevest?

Where was all this love when people were being bloodied in the forum?

Where is all this love when significant numbers of workshop attendees go into serious
financial debt to attend these bullshit workshops on Lemuria and King Arthur.

Where is all this love when his anointed Dolly Mama Peny North tells a follower she would
like to slap her for questioning Jach?

---

And finally, another shame inducing method,

quote:

---

As the follower grows more and more disenchanted with his or her inability to reconcile the teaching that success is natural and fun with the frustration of trying to incorporate baroque,complex manifestation and healing techniques to create that success, a sense of despair and an erosion of confidence results.

The inadequacy and inconsistency that really belong to Lazaris are internalized by the
follower.

The follower who carries this flaw must inevitably return to the only source now trustworthy for counsel.. Lazaris.

---

And weren't we told that you can't lift shame by yourself Reality Creators?

Think I'm getting the hang of the misuseof NLP.

Jade

PS. Also noticed terminology -- making maps, reality maps, you have access to to all resources.

[[[I would love to put a copy of the entire thread up here as an example of someone being trashed in the Forum but I have a feeling it would not be legal.]]]

Can anyone find out if it is illegal? Otherwise, if there is some way I can contact you personally by email and you send me a copy, I would appreciate it.

I think I have seen just about every "storm" and if not, then someone has alerted me to them, so I would guess I am at least already familiar with your blowout. I used to see them in a different light than I do now. I am curious if I would react differently to your situation now than before.

What was your forum fight about? Do you mind me asking?

PJ

You wrote,

"From what I read on the NLP link and a couple of others, NLP is known for it's "special hypnotic techniques, though not necessarily explicit hypnosis."

And...

"I am curious about the special hypnotic techniques that are not explicit hypnosis. Can't find any examples. Is this something you learned about, or were aware of with the Orb?"

I am not sure I would call it hypnotic but NLP does plant specific language into the brain.

For example someone has a belief system 'on line' that continually tells them that "I will always struggle with money." or " I will never have enough money." NLP uses techniques to 'erase' this programming and then replace it with another belief..."Money comes easily to Me."

Now it may not be as simple as that because there could be other programming that trips you up or override these suggestions..."No matter what happens, I do not deserve money!" So you go in deeper and fish out these other beliefs. Problem is if you are working with an unethical person they can keep you tied up looking for problems and deeper levels and faulty beliefs for the rest of your life!

Sound familiar?

Ideally you should NOT become depended on the practitioner. They should be working themselves out of a job by empowering and educating the client.

You wrote,

"Also of interest is the NLP practitioners learned skill in creating rapport (trust), and the ability to elicit emotional states."

Yes. That is why it is so important to work with someone who is ethical. This is very powerful stuff. I have seen some practitioners really power trip with these techniques and I have had a few clients over the years who have left feeling great and then become very frightened of me because they felt I held some sort of power over them. They felt I could expose their most cherished demons and that is not something you want to take lightly. I have also had the occasional client fall instantly 'In Love' because I am being so intimate with them, I am paying attention and I am showing compassion and care and that equals Love! On a universal level of course but try telling that to a love starved Being desperate for some attention. This could quickly become very unhealthy because it is very one sided. I know them but they do not know me so they put me up on a pedestal because I appear to be this all-knowing being.

Again sound familiar?

It is tricky stuff to work with. After years of practice I now only do this work with someone I have known for a long time and they know me as a person. I have proven myself to them to be trust worthy (and human!) and they have proven themselves to me to be willing to take responsibility for their own healing. (I do not 'fix' people!!! LOL)

Does this fill in more of the picture?

Like Ted said I don't think it's OK to reprint the thread here. Do you still have access to the Con:Sin site? If you do, it should be under the 'What is the difference between a Celt and a Druid?' thread. (I think this is the right title) A fellow started it by the name of Joshua L. It would be interesting to know if it is still there.

Basically Josh asked a question and Scott (we all know Scott!) slammed him. I took issue with this as I had seen it too many times before. Instead of addressing Scott directly I wrote a sympathetic letter to Josh telling him that it was OK to ask questions (even so called 'dumb' questions) as Lazaris had been patiently putting up with our repeated questions for years now. My reasoning was "Hey everything we really needed to know was in the first book anyway and the rest of the material was Lazaris's way of enjoying us and we enjoying them." Wasn't all of this programming and stuff supposed to be an option? A 'preference' as Lazaris calls it? This line of thought came from the fact that Lazaris had told us repeatedly that we were here for one thing... TO HAVE FUN and create success! Not save the bloody planet, which is what Peny and Jach felt they were doing!

So Jach agreed with me that the first book in essence is all we really 'needed' but he did not like the part about Lazaris enjoying us and we enjoying them. Peny didn't like anything I said at all! (Bad for sales right? and I obviously was not taking Lazaris or Con:Sin seriously enough.)

The interesting thing for me was that I, in my spun out, pained state, asked Lazaris for some guidance just after this happened and I was 'guided' to a piece that Lazaris had written in the public library. It very clearly stated that what we were doing with Lazaris was to be fun and pleasure. It confirmed what I had said. I went back to look for that piece later but it had been removed from the library.

The thing that upset me most about this scene was that I buckled under the pressure of Jach and Peny being angry with me. I had given them some of my power. I wish I had stood firm in what I had said because I do not feel what I said was wrong. It might not have been a complete picture but it was not wrong.

Cheers, Lynn

About the banishing ritual in the song you described, I have seen other examples of this in my studies of wicca. Very good point you raise!

The reason I say, "apparently," is that I never know what to make of Milton Erickson. He told people stories, and somehow this guided imagery was supposed to lead them into a trance. But I never know if he was doing hypnosis as you would normally understand it, or something else.

NLP claims to be a mind control technique which you can learn. But could you start a cult with it? Tentatively I would say no. I just don't think it is that powerful.

quote:

---

It seems to me that humankind has long been had by religious belief and dogma. It is all built in the past and reaches for the future, creating a diversion, preventing us from being and responding NOW.

This concept of "coming home" is just more of the same.

---

Thanks for sharing your cathedral experience with us. Reminds me of being a bare shouldered tourist and having to cover my ungodly bare arms with something provided by a tour guide in order to enter the patriarchal sacred space.

But did have an extemely moving experience in St.Peter's at the Vatican -- back in'62 when the pope had just died. The magnificent basilica was crowded with worshippers, priests, nuns, and cardinals, bishops etc. in elegant regalia, all focused on an entrancing mourning ceremony. But, the lone, exquisite, heart piercing cry of a grieving peasant woman was the human element that emotionally electrified the sumptuous setting and all within. That was a NOW moment.

I'm finding that The Nature of the Psyche is very helpful for focusing in the present. Instead of directing the reader to a higher self, Great Unknown, Lemuria, Home etc. the emphasis is on experiencing greater dimensions of self/psyche in daily living and dreams -- truly expanding consciousness.

Jade

quote:

---

NLP claims to be a mind control technique which you can learn. But could you start a cult with it? Tentatively I would say no. I just don't think it is that powerful.

---

I don't see NLP as something to start a cult with, but possibly one of a mixture of methods used to impact people's brain patterns.

Maybe you have had the experience of feeling like you are plucking past cult phrases, terminology and concepts out of your mind over a period of time. It's like a fragmented recording track, where parts of the recording are scattered, but you want to find and delete all of them.

quote:

---

I'm finding that The Nature of the Psyche is very helpful for focusing in the present. Instead of directing the reader to a higher self, Great Unknown, Lemuria, Home etc. the emphasis is on experiencing greater dimensions of self/psyche in daily living and dreams -- truly expanding consciousness.

---

The Yale University Library will soon open an entire section containing the complete works of Seth, Jane Roberts, and Robert Butts.

Go to virtually any urban public library in America and you find a great deal of Seth material.

Lazaris? Fat flim flam cutlhead chance.

Steve
sb6@altavista.com

quote:

---

I am not sure I would call it hypnotic but NLP does plant specific language into the brain.

Problem is if you are working with an
unethical person they can keep you tied up looking for problems and deeper levels and
faulty beliefs for the rest of your life!

---

quote:

---

"Also of interest is the NLP practitioners learned skill in creating rapport (trust), and the ability to elicit emotional states."

Yes. That is why it is so important to work with someone who is ethical. This is very powerful stuff. I have seen some practitioners really power trip with these techniques and I have had a few clients over the years who have left feeling great and then become very frightened of me because they felt I held some sort of power over them.

---

And on love,

quote:

---

I know them but they do not know me so they put me up on a pedestal because I appear to be this all-knowing being.

---

Thanks again for your helpful posting about NLP. I do believe hypnotic language patterns (NLP or otherwise), especially those delivered during meditations, have been taped into our heads. Just have to be ready to hit "erase" when they spring to mind.

All those tapes, laying tapes in our brains!

Jade

Good to hear fom you Steve.

Jade

quote:

---

Even though the Seth books tend to be heady, wordy reading, the primary dynamic is fluidity and mobility of personal consciousness. Instead of generating structures (like the Orb), the emphasis of this book is on diminishing internal pyschic structures that limit conscious experience.

---

Absolutely.

And there be the "rub", Jade.

The stiffness, sense of social disconnection, and lack of *genuine* spontaneity (read: genuine self-trust) that can easily be seen in the body language and expression of Lazaris (and other destructive --) cult members sure makes your point about the freeing influence of the Seth material - right out here in Real life.

Steve

Well, at this point I don't think I would want to go back and relive your agony by reading those posts. I actually remember it now well enough. And by the way, the Forum Management can tell what you are searching for, I am told. So, if anyone reading along prefers anonymity, be aware of how the Forum likes to track people. Oh, darling!

[[[The thing that upset me most about this scene was that I buckled under the pressure of Jach and Peny being angry with me. I had given them some of my power. I wish I had stood firm in what I had said because I do not feel what I said was wrong. It might not have been a complete picture but it was not wrong.]]]

Hmmmph. If I had a bleeping dollar for everytime I licked the boots of...well anyway. I have lately been given more inside skinny on the way Jach likes to be the Gatekeeper of FOLs (friends of L). Whatever the reality of Lazaris, Jach can be such a weenie in so many ways that whatever his redeeming qualities, I am quickly losing sight of the time I used to think he had any. Damn, what a shame. I had wanted to keep liking him.

Can I be serious for a moment here? It is after my bedtime so being serious is a very serious thing, since the later it gets, the harder "serious" becomes: but seriously (s), I will be so amazed if Jach does not have a nervous breakdown. Let's say this guy is not a fake and that he really channels Lazaris. I will still give him that because I have no idea what is true, and this is just rhetorically speaking anyway. But, given that this is all true, it seems he has never let any of the love and the teachings touch him deeply enough that he could move beyond being a greedy, Peny pinching twerp to so many of those who put the pennies in his and Peny's hands to pinch. One day he will wake up and say, perhaps impetuously, "Screw it. I am going back to sleep and never waking up."

Well, anyway, I do feel bad for the guy. I am still serious here. And, you were perfectly right in the way you dealt with them. I think it is poetic justice that you then got reaffirmation on your stand from an I Ching with Lazaris.

Spastic afterthought: wouldn't you be really pissed if you were Jach, Lazaris was real, and this is the reality that is now before you? What an undue burden having a huge entity channel through you places on a guy. I am still being serious. But, now I am not. I am signing off.

PJ

See what happens when I stay up beyond bedtime and try to be serious at the same time? I spam the site. Administrator, please delete my mess. I am sorry! I posted twice and once was hardly interesting enough. LOL!

You said: You said: Peny pinching twerp...

LOL!

Good night,

Craig

PS: FYI, you can edit your posts on this site (click on the little edit icon above your post). This would allow you to delete your duplicate post (leaving a blank post).

I know someone who made a real effort to use NLP; he looked at language, eye movement, and so on. He was unable to see any differences between people, or any consistency with any one person.

quote:

---

Well, anyway, I do feel bad for the guy.

---

Jade

You wrote,

"Spastic afterthought: wouldn't you be really pissed if you were Jach, Lazaris was real, and this is the reality that is now before you?"

quote:

---

I think the problem I have with NLP is that it doesn't seem to make sense. You are told to look out for particular patterns in people's use of language, but there are no patterns.

---

NLP seems sterile, dry and overly mental to me. Yet I do believe that if you look long and hard enough you can find patterns in peoples' thoughts and beliefs. For example, probably something like racist thinking is a pattern.

But with "Lazaris". I'm more interested in subtle patterns that might have been put into people's minds.

Jade

You all wrote a bunch of things that jumped out at me:

IMO

"And there I was all alone just me and a scale. Aha’s on one side and uh oh’s on the other."

I love this, IMO--says it all.

Craig wrote:

"Any questions I had with the material I always chalked up to me not being evolved enough to see the big picture that Lazaris did."

I never chalked up my uneasiness about the (later) material to Lazaris being more evolved--I wish I had, I'd feel less dimwitted and (self) conned now.

I'm left feeling like a Muldaur knock off: I really wanted to believe.

Oakspirit wrote:

"In particular the line about the current being "the only current that can take us all the way home". Since when are there "onlys" in this spirirual path. It reminded me of a christian dogma."

Exactly--so much of the later material reduced the whole thing to a "My way or the doorway" approach to growth.

Jade wrote:

"Like tonight, I was having a lovely late night drive through a forest after visiting a friend's waterside cabin and remembered this,
"We'll never let you down." AHRG!!!"

Jade, thank-you--I've been trying to remember Lazaris' claims to infallibility and you've just provided one example. (Does the phrase "We'll never steer you wrong, dear one" sound familiar? I'm almost sure Lazaris used that phrase on a few of the meditations.)

Thanks to you all for your thoughts--my ultimate uh oh came in January when someone very close to me found this site; after two minutes of being briefed on the MLM scam, I finally tipped.

flo

I know there have been reports in this thread of how Lazaris said that Peny died of natural causes.

For those of you who don't check out the LL site, I wanted to bring some news from over there.

There is the report that Lazaris said that THE CORONER's report stated that Peny died of natural causes. We then found out that according to the American College of Pathologists, there are only three recognized categories for death certificates:

1) Poising or injury
2) Sudden Infant Death Syndrome and related scenarios
3) Natural causes. Illness is considered a natural cause.

Well, isn't that just sh*tty! L might have factually told the truth, but obviously stretched it beyond recognition. I am more upset about this than when I heard it reported that he simply said that Peny died of natural causes. It is oh so deceptive!

Cheers, Craig

I finally received the first tape after the P&M deaths. I thought I would finally cancel my tape subscription, but I just decided to wait a little longer so I can hear the latest nonsense he relays about the terrorist attacks.

He spends a good 10-15 minutes talking about the deaths. Jach's voice is clearly nervous throughout most of the talk. So much for Jach being an objective channel that Lazaris transmits "bits and bleeps" to.

The entire tone of the talk is that P&M are now with Lazaris doing even more wonderful things than they did on earth. Like that would be hard to do. He says that it is glib to say that our loss would be L's gain. He also says that more accurately we will find that our loss will eventually be found to be our gain. I don't know about all of you, but all of the issues I felt over Peny's death centered around how the Lazaris material seemed to fail. This was never addressed.

He VERY explicitly says that Peny's death had nothing to do with any disease or illness and that it was in no way related to any cardiac or respiratory disorder or complication. He said that the medical examiner said the death was from natural causes, but the medical examiner was unable to find a reason why she died. Lazaris claims that she left her body and decided not to return. He claims that her ability to make quick choices and decisions in life was evident here also.

He claimed that Michaell had a level of commitment and integrity that was unparalleled. I guess L forgets about the MLM deals and Michaell's abandonment of her daughter. He implies that this commitment to Peny was behind his suicide. Of course, he first gives the legal disclaimer that neither Lazaris or anyone at CS encourages or endorses suicide. It seemed out of place to mention CS unless he was covering his legal butt.

Lazaris offered to surround us with his love and light so that we can find resolution and peace. Also, he claims something like we will become slightly more of our truer selves in the process.

Lazaris says that the reasons for death are always private and he will not discuss why they died to honor their privacy. A couple minutes later, he spills his guts, apparently forgetting his earlier words. He says that she was done with her 2 mandatory and 5 chosen life focuses.

The whole thing is rather sickening.

I then did my best to listen to the rest of the tape. I never made it past the first side of the first tape.

Thanks for that.

I guess it's time to tell that the Orlando homicide detective who visited the house on the night of Peny's death asked me how long our site had been up. When I told him that it became active in Sept or Oct of 2000 he said that that was how long Peny had been sick.

He also told me that Jach told him that he believed that the Gang would be able to heal Peny, and hence decided that there was no need to call a doctor.

Jach told the detective that he believed that Peny was getting better, that the healing work they had been doing was working, and that her death came as a surprise to them.

All this was told to me before news of Michaell's suicide was made public, but it was told to me.

If you recall, Michaell and Peny died on a Wednesday. This conversation took place on the following Friday afternoon, and within an hour of it Jach's email admitting to the suicide was issued. The question remains in my mind as to whether Jach would have ever admitted to it, if he didn't find out that the news had already been revealed.

When questioned by the curious police about the source of the wealth that supported the mind boggling mansion that the police found themselves in, Jach responded that he made his money from day trading, an "educational book and tape" business was mentioned as a secondary source of income.

The first the Orlando detectives heard about Lazaris or Concept/Synergy was during a conversation with me.

Jach lied to the cops, what makes anyone possibly believe that he isn't lying through his teeth to us.

If there is any solid evidence that Lazaris is at best a liar, and at worst a complete fraud, it is this information on this tape.

The tape is also stunning evidence as to Jach's incredible hubris to believe that he lives in a vacuum and invulnerable to the scrutiny of people outside of his voodoo.

One other factoid of interest. Jach was visited by a member of the Orlando police department who had been provided with a copy of the "ain't suicide grand" e-mail and advised to retract his statements.

Jach's retraction e-mail was sent out shortly after.

Jach is a fucking lying piece of dirt from hell.

The cause of Peny's death may be available to anyone who wants to pursue a line of inquiry with the appropriate officials.

I have a life to live, and there's no one here who can't get the same information that I have. It just takes the desire and incentive to do so.

I hope we hear more.

Wake up

Katie

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I now guess the chances of my letter to Jach being answered are about the same as Bin Laden taking a flight to NYC and turning himself in.

Let me know if you want the tape. I'll FedEx you my copy tomorrow if you're interested.

Someone just sent me a copy of the forum posts dealing with the tragedy. That was the first time I ever read anything from that site. The beliefs some of these people hold are truly tragic. The smugness and naiveness about the tragedy and their "mediation" borders on disbelief.

Wake up indeed!

Thanks so much.

You have asked this question about three times now.

quote:

---

What I need corroboration on, like a good non tabloid journalist is whether Jach did tell the police Peny was getting better etc and why would that information be withheld until now.

---

Actually, the information wasn't withheld, it was judiciously given to those to whom I thought it would matter, those who can decipher a fact from an opinion.

Maybe your disrespectful response to the information contains the answer you seek.

The information was given in a timely fashion and corroborated by those who cared enough to bother.

There has never been anything preventing anyone else from knowing what I know, other than possibly some belief that those of us who are willing to do the work owe something to those who don't.

quote:

---

I can think of many reasons why Katie wouldn't speak the truth.

---

Think away babe, as Muhammad Ali has said "facts change but the truth remains the same."

Spin until you drop, the facts are the facts and already verified.

It's all fine and cool that you choose to keep your head up your ass girlfriend, but do your deeds at your own expense, please.

Don't call people liars just because they reveal something you can't handle.

You have landed in jail..do not collect $200. Go directly to Cult Awareness 101.

Praise Jesus that you have your Angel to protect you from the abuse of others. Does she charge by the hour? I could use a bit of protection from your "Peace and Love" my self.

Joy indeed!

Mucho Lava and Many Peas,

Katie

On the Lite Site you said:

quote:

---

Lazaris has said he always tells the truth. If he is shown to have lied, do you still hold steadfast in your belief?

---

I guess that would depend on the basis for a belief wouldn't it? Do I believe it because it's true, or do I believe it because it feels good to believe it and I'm too lazy and irresponsible to look beyond my pleasure of the moment? Cults don't operate in vacuum.

How sad and scary that some beliefs are unshakeable, even in the face of reality and truth.

I guess that fact of human consciousness illustrates how it is possible to convince someone to ruthlessly murder innocent people in the name of rightousness and truth.

Katie

quote:

---

. Katie is
not someone I would trust...... She clearly has an agenda and it isn't unbiased.

As to Jach's lying, I don't blame him.

---

HMMMM. So, some lies are bad, and some are good. Where did you learn those ethics....could it be......Bizzaris???????

What exactly is that agenda by the way, oh wise one?

No response expected of course..no little Angel here to protect your oh so delicate self.

Hot Lava and Mushy Peas,

Katie

quote:

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Running around blaming psychics because they have failed to take responsibility for our own
reality creation then seems anathema to being empowered.

I don't know about you, Legaldude, but to me that really looks like misplaced frustration
(and blame.)

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To me it looks as though you learned the Bizzaris shame game real well.

Hotter Lava and Mushier Peas,

Katie