(Note: due to the length of this document, it has been split up into several posts. This is part 1 of 5)

Background

I have been involved with the Lazaris teachings since 1989. I have traveled to LA, SF, Atlanta, Tampa, New Jersey, Philadelphia, Baltimore and Washington to attended at approximately 7 four day intensives, 15 weekends, 5 one days, and 20 evenings. I have listened to over 200 tapes.

I was first attracted to the Lazaris material at a low point in my life when I was going through a divorce and having business problems. I immediately feel in love with the material. I also felt a great love toward Lazaris. While I am usually a very skeptical person, I can see that after I was initially hooked, I threw out my discernment. Lazaris had gained my trust. When I did not agree with something he said, I chalked it up to my not seeing the whole picture.

After an intense seminar involvement in the early 90s, I found I was less interested in going to the events. I just didn't seem to be getting much out of the seminars to justify the time and money involved. I am not a great visualizer. I figured if someday I visualized better, I would get more out of the meditations and would start attending seminars again.

During this involvement, I have had some remarkable successes in my life as well as some failings. I attribute much of the success to my own developing spirituality that was in part nourished by the Lazaris experience.

As a subscriber to the tape series, I would listen to new tapes at the gym. I recently found myself not paying close attention, as the material was not grabbing me anymore. I figured that was because I was preoccupied and that I might someday re-listen to the cassettes with more attention. I no longer practiced any of the techniques or did any of the meditations, but did keep my toes in the water.

In the meantime, I have dabbled in other sources of spiritual wisdom, which I have been increasingly more satisfied with.

Cosmic Fool

My first major clue that something was wrong came when I opened the Concept:Synergy (C:S) mailing stating that Peny had died. I felt something was wrong in the pit of my stomach, but again figured that I was missing something and maybe it was time for her to be moving on to higher planes.

Recently (mid-July 2001), I stumbled across the "cosmic fool" website, http://www.cosmicfool.com/lazaris, by pure accident. I knew in short order that I had to do a major re-evaluation of my beliefs surrounding Lazaris. I first read the excellent, although now somewhat dated, introduction provided by Ted and Katie, the site originators. I then started browsing the message board forum.

Unfortunately, the forum part of this site has an overwhelming amount of material in it. I would estimate the printing of the more than 4,400 posts would occupy 3,500 pages (Note to beginners: don't forget to click on the date range selector that defaults to only listing posts over the past 100 days).

I decided to read through the entire forum as part of my process of evaluating my beliefs. One annoyance I found was that there seemed to be a lot of heated discussions going on that I feel are the results of two sides having differing opinions on a matter that is very important to both sides. It also seems that some of the parties have a hidden agenda as they are either healers who use the Lazaris material or are involved with C:S to some extent. It is easy to get sucked into these discussions, which quickly turn personal, and miss out on the real issues being talked about. The amount of space devoted to these lengthy, tedious arguments is often significant. I learned to skim over these sessions. There is also a fair amount of repetition as material is oft repeated for the benefit of newcomers who have not arduously read all of the prior posts.

While reviewing the material, I cut and pasted those sections that seemed to be of interest. Even in what I cut and pasted, I found a fair amount of repetition. I decided against the idea of organizing this information due to the time I projected it would take. There are over 100 pages of such material. I will make this information available to anyone who is interested.

Instead, I decided to present a summary of what I consider the pertinent facts and present my opinions. What you are reading is the result. It relies vastly on the incredible amount of thought and research of others. I am indebted to all of those who spent so much energy in the forum.

I have two reasons for making my private thoughts on this matter public. One reason is because I feel an obligation to inform those that I have introduced to Lazaris. The other reason is to present to others I do not know an alternative view that they may or may not choose to influence their own opinions.

Finally, please recognize that much of the material is based on hearsay evidence, and thus should be interpreted in that light. In addition to the direct observations of the posters, there is information that has been provided to some of the posters from old friends of Peny/Jach/Michaell/Lazaris and people who have worked directly in or near the C:S organization. Ted and Katie also have a lot of material that I am not privy to that they have been privately told. It would be a betrayal for them to reveal such information.

Peny

Lazaris has oft stated that one of his major, if not primary, reasons for visiting us is because of Peny, "a most beautiful spark of love and light". We have been told endlessly of her evolved state and her loving nature. We heard the stories, but not the details, of her marvelous reality creation capability. She was portrayed as a master metaphysician. Given that Lazaris had earned my trust, I trusted what he said about Peny.

The comsicfool site describes a Peny that I was shocked to find out is nothing like Lazaris claims she is:

• I found no evidence of any worthy projects she worked on or legacy she left, other than of a financial nature.
• She was often rude, controlling, and determined to get her way. She actually once stated that Jach and her ALWAYS WIN.
• She was often infantile, greedy, tacky, paranoid and hurtful.
• She would lie and often had questionable ethics.
• She would gossip endlessly about people, including information she was privy to from private consultations with Lazaris.
• She stated she was anti-family.
• A typical day included shopping on eBay, doing stock day trading, presenting her severe right-wing opinions on various BBSs, talking on the Lazaris BBS and gleefully dissecting people.
• She admitted to being a recluse and did not like to travel.
• She promoted people wearing "Goddess wigs".
• She was at one time a liberal, but switched to an ultra-right-wing conservative after obtaining wealth.
• She was morbidly overweight.
• She talked at length to Lazaris every day.
• She stated that she hoped Bill Clinton would die from an STD, while she adored Rush Limbaugh and Tamy Faye Baker.
• Towards the end, she became totally obsessed with following the "Big Brother" reality series on TV and the internet.
• She has publicly humiliated people, including her own staff, at seminars.
• She often hosted sessions where a C:S staffer would get "processed" by others. This was something that staffers would absolutely dread.
• She used the threat of denying access to Lazaris as a primary weapon.
• She started private email rings where she would share opinions about certain forum members.
  

Whenever anyone has questioned Lazaris about Peny's outrageous behavior, he would either be uncharacteristically silent or say simply that he "did not see things that way". How can he see things so very differently from everyone else? By refusing to explain why (as he has been explicitly asked), the thinking person is only left with the conclusion that something does not add up with this entity.

Tradevest

Peny, Jach and Michaell were all involved in at least one MLM (multi-level marketing) scheme. There is much information on this site about Tradevest, a MLM company that the group actively promoted in the 80s to seminar participants. Jach pushed getting people to sign up as "associates" (by attending training and paying the appropriate fees). He stated (perhaps illegally) that he didn't want anyone who was a friend of Lazaris signing up another friend directly. Instead, they had to do it through Jach. Thus, Jach would get more "downline" money and the friend of Lazaris would get less.

They publicly stated that they were making a great deal of money off of this company. They sent flyers to Lazaris seminar attendees implying this was a great opportunity to provide income, especially down the line. The implied Lazaris seal of approval was everywhere.

Then Tradevest went belly-up. Even though some people at the lowest level (those who did not pay to be "trained" as an associate, but who instead just used the company for its stated intention as a consumer's buying club) got some of their money back, no associates got back anything. All of the Lazaris people were being pushed to become associates. Again, Jach stated publicly that they made a huge amount of money off of this, but not one cent was paid back to any of the associates that they had enlisted. These associates never saw any money from anyone.

Couldn't Lazaris see this coming?

Mansions and Money

There are public records that state that one of the residences Peny/Michaell/Jach purchased in Palm Beach was bought for $9M dollars. On top of this, a massive amount of money was spent on renovating the place. Peny has bragged in political forums outside of Concept:Synergy of the number of properties she owns and how that indicates that her opinion should be respected.

Meanwhile, many "hooked" Lazaris seminar attendees max out their credit cards in order to pay for yet another seminar. Most people don't object to the seminar fees because they assume that C:S must have to pay a massive amount of money for those fancy hotel ballrooms. What they may not realize is that often these rooms are provided at no cost. My company held a couple of user group meetings in a large casino in Atlantic City. Not only were the entire meeting headquarters provided for free, but also we were given a number of beautiful suites for free. The larger the group you are hosting, the more perks you are given. After all, you are a source of revenue for the hotel. Finally, I understand that many of the people who man the seminar tables are volunteers.

We hear stories of how crystals are being pushed by Lazaris. Not just any crystals, but one's that are allegedly known to have a specific background (thus not containing negative energy) and are coincidently available for purchase from a C:S company.

Forum Storm

C:S has operated two forums. The original one was on Compuserve. The latest one is hosted on their own website. What sounds like a great opportunity for sharing amongst fellow Lazarians turns out to be totally dysfunctional:

• Anyone who questions anything will be met with immediate and vigorous attacks by Peny, Jach, or one of the may C:S staff assigned forum patrol. Very hurtful judgments will often be hurled. The behavior is similar to that of dysfunctional parent or spouse who is not allowed to be questioned. When questioned, no matter how delicately, the parent or spouse goes on a rage.
  
• Posts are often deleted if they contain anything even slightly uncomfortable.
  
• Peny doles out very questionable health advice.
  
• People who don't follow the unstated rules often have their forum privileges revoked.
  
• One person actually got an email from Jach saying that she was being taken off of the standing tape list and would have to pay for anything, including seminars, by check. Her credit card would no longer be honored (presumably to punish her).
  
• Apologies from Peny, Jach and the C:S staff are rarely, if ever, expressed. Apologies from other members are typically explicitly demanded.
  

Concept: Synergy

In addition to the horrendous behavior that C:S staffers exhibit on the forum, other notable behavior includes:

• Gathering gossip during workshops and reporting it back to Peny and Jach.
  
• Monitoring for unacceptable behavior such as seminar attendees trading crystals, thus bypassing the C:S sales machine.
  

There have been at least three major C:S staffers who were known to all who attended the seminars because of their serving as the facilitator of the event. I know of Gerald, Mary Beth, and Talor. In all cases, there appears to have been some type of disagreement and then these people drop out of site and in most cases are never seen again at any seminar. One has to question both why the departures and why the silence.

Katie states, based on a view of the logs of who visited her sites, that there appeared early on to be visits to the site from some pretty high power law firms. Fortunately, nothing happened due to the protection of the First Amendment. Why is C:S so deathly afraid of criticism?

They issued an email telling people they would be breaking the law if the continued to talk to Ted and Katie because of the agreement they signed when they joined the forum. What little respect do they have for us?

C:S has broken its business commitments at least three times:

• The reneging of the commitment in the 80's to those who were allowed to sign up for a permanent "life consultation" schedule.
  
• Prematurely canceling seminars on the West Coast.
  
• The most recent canceling of all personal readings.
  

Jach

Jach has his background in insurance. He is seen by old acquaintances as a slick, clever businessman with an incredible memory for people and details. No wonder C:S is so successful financially.

The official story states that Jach was a metaphysical neophyte when Lazaris began coming through. However people have confirmed that he attended the Silva Mind Control course before channeling Lazaris. I was able to find only one vague reference in an introduction to one of the C:S books that says he did attend a "meditation" course reluctantly once. However, most of the time the story is told it even leaves out this vague reference.

The impression I get is that Jach can put on a pleasant public persona, but is quick to attack in defense of Peny, C:S and to a lesser extent Lazaris. I view him as a master of spin, protecting his corporate interests.

Michaell

As most of you know, Michaell was Peny's husband. The story presented by C:S was that Lazaris requested that Michaell be summoned from Michigan to join C:S while Peny and Jach were still married. Soon after, Peny divorced Jach and married Michaell.

Michaell has been rumored to be involved with other MLM schemes outside of the above-mentioned Tradevest.

Michaell had an 8-year-old daughter by a prior marriage that sources indicate Peny convinced Michaell should be abandoned.

Deaths and Suicides

There has been what seems to me an inordinate amount of death surrounding the C:S group.

There is the recent death of Peny. This came as a shock to everyone for many reasons:

• She often stated her desire for longevity.
  
• I can't imagine anyone saying that she had wrapped up the loose ends of her life and thus may have, out of her love, realized it was time to move on.
  
• She had virtually unlimited access to Lazaris and his healings.
  
• She had been practicing Lazaris's techniques longer than anyone else on the planet.
  
• There was no warning from Lazaris or C:S about her health condition.
  

There is convincing circumstantial evidence to point to the fact that, indeed, something was wrong with her health. There was the canceling in August 2000 of future conferences other than in Orlando. One can easily infer that this was done so that Jach could be with Peny. Instead, Jach came up with some story about him doing this because he was tired of traveling. I would buy this had he simply stopped adding new conferences to the West Coast. I don't see it as a huge burden for anyone to take a couple more for the team considering people had made non-refundable airline purchases and had gotten their work schedules approved in advance. I would also buy this if they were straightforward and mentioned that either Jach or Peny had some health issues. When someone got the nerve to question this on the forum, they were attacked with vigor, asking how anyone could be so selfish and not appreciate all that Jach has sacrificed for them already. Any normal company that pulled such an act would get slaughtered by their customers. But such customers don't operate under the fear of losing the love of Lazaris.

More significantly, there is the fact that Peny abruptly stopped posting on the forum in October 2000. This was such a drastic change that it had to be explained by something. When questioned in December, Jach made some reference to her being busy with other projects and was fine. Rumor has it that the crew was vehemently trying to heal her and thought they were making progress.

The day that Peny died, Michaell committed suicide. This was described in an email sent to a select group in the forum (to those Jach felt would understand) describing how Peny and Michaell had made a sacred covenant (i.e., a suicide pact) that if one of them departed, the other would quickly follow. So much for time being an illusion. Wouldn't someone touted as being so spiritual understand that the other would join her in a relative blink of the eye? I can't accept this. The tone of the email was very disturbing and could be interpreted as condoning suicide. Fortunately, a clarification email was later sent. Sources say that this was based on a strong suggestion from one of the officials investigating the deaths.

Sources indicate that Jach had mentioned nothing about Michaell's 8-year-old daughter to the investigators.

As requested in one of the posts, given the ongoing investigation regarding the recent events, one should consider contacting the Orange County sheriff investigation division at 407-836-4020 if they have any information regarding this situation (e.g., their advice to abandon your child, lies or inconsistencies from C:S, etc).

There has been (up to this writing) a total silence from Lazaris regarding this issue. This is the same Lazaris who gave an immediate reaction to Princess Diana's death.

In addition to Peny, the very visible (and young and healthy looking) Gerald died a year or so after leaving C:S. Others close to C:S have died.

I have also heard various stories of Lazaris followers developing diseases of one type or another and then dieing.

It seems to me, given the alleged healing capabilities of Lazaris, "there is a whole lot of dying going on".

Text of Death/Suicide Emails

From: Jach Pursel

Date: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 12:32 PM

Subject: With Great Sorrow...

Dear Everyone,

Peny North died in her sleep in the early morning hours Wednesday, May 09, 2001. She had a quiet and peaceful passing.

Free of the physical plane, she is with Lazaris now; she is with him "forever and a day." Most likely they are sitting under that tree overlooking the sea of possibility of which he so often speaks. Surely they are talking and laughing together as they always did while Peny was with us.

Her work on Earth is complete. Her work - a Great Work -- continues.

We will all miss her dearly. None will miss her more than Michaell, her husband of 24 years -- her friend and companion for eternity -- and me.

Much love,

Jach

P.S. Please do not send flowers. If you want to make a contribution in honor of Peny, please make it to your favorite charity. There will be no services. We have cancelled the May workshop and the two June workshops. If you were registered for any of these, call the office the week of May 14th for details.

Thank you,

Jach

Dear Friends,

You already know of Peny's death Wednesday, May 9, 2001. I write to let you know that Michaell joined Peny with his death during the afternoon hours of the same day. Peny and Michaell, in the richness and depth of their love and intimacy, had an agreement that if one of them died, the other would follow as soon as possible.

Michaell said his final physical goodbyes to Peny in the early morning hours of that day. During the afternoon hours, sitting out by the pool where he and Peny often sat together, Michaell ended his life. He died quickly and without any physical pain. His passing was also peaceful. Sacred covenant fulfilled, they are together now.

Society calls suicide a crime. Within the broad range of spirituality and within that which is called the new age, many judge suicide as weakness in the face of crisis or at least are suspect of the motives. Perhaps in many cases such judgments or suspicions are valid. In this case, they are not.

I do not send this message to everyone on the Concept:Synergy mailing list. I send it to those such as you who have an open heart, who have an open mind, and who can understand that Michaell was not weak and his motives were not suspect.

Michaell had a rare courage to make and honor his word and to live, and now to die, in a way that expressed his strength, his power, his love, and his precious and unending love for Peny. He had a phenomenal courage to live and die reflecting more of his real self.

Michaell's suicide was an act of incredible courage and strength. His motivation? His love for the most wonderful woman in the world: His love for Peny.

I say it again: Sacred covenant fulfilled, they are together now and forever.

Thank you for understanding.

Much love,

Jach

P.S. In anticipation of your concerns, Peny and I also had an agreement. If something like this ever happened, I would stay; I would remain here. As Michaell honored his agreement so I honor mine.

From: Jach Pursel

Reply-To: conceptsynergy@att.net

Subject: Clarification & Positive News

Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 11:55:34 -0400

Dear Everyone,

I write to you with a clarification and with positive news. My last email to you was written while I was in unimaginable depths of shock, pain, and grief. In the midst of my tragic chaos, I wrote because I wanted you to know what happened and I wanted you to hear it from me. Two weeks have passed. Now I write in a clearer and stronger place.

In my previous email I wrote to tell you of Michaell's suicide and to explain his personal reasons for doing that. I attempted to write without any judgment either way. Perhaps I fell short of my goal.

CLARIFICATION: Neither Concept: Synergy, Lazaris, nor I condone, support, or encourage suicide. Michaell's choice was his personal one only. It was not the choice I would have made. Obviously, I am here. It is not a choice that any us who were/are so close to Peny and Michaell would have made. I also know that Michaell never would have even suggested that others do what he did.

POSITIVE NEWS: I am doing fine. Under the circumstances, I am doing remarkably well. I am not saying my grief is done. Stages and phases of grief will continue for some time yet. I am past the initial and the hardest time. I am doing fine.

Out of all this, my resolve to live life fully and powerfully has grown stronger. My determination to express and reflect the joy of living life has lifted to new levels.

I am starting to write the fliers for upcoming workshops and to return to my daily routine. All of us here are moving forward with a vivid commitment to craft a different and new future. We are committed to living life with celebration and triumph.

Much love,

Jach

Source of Teachings

The Lazaris material is presenting little new information. What it does do is gather elements of the perennial philosophy and presents it in a cogent, up-to-date presentation. There are many obvious sources to the material including Jose Silva, Seth, Carl Jung, Edgar Cayce, Eric Berne and Paramahansa Yogananda.

In addition, there are some unique techniques that I view as variations of existing techniques. This is not hard to do for anyone with a little creativity and a decent background in metaphysics. I'm sure if I put my creative hat on, by the end of the day I would have a handful of new techniques that some would find useful.

Contradictory Teachings

Lazaris warned us of contradictory teachings, but does not seem to be exempt from such practices. A couple of examples:

• He speaks of non-interference on the one hand while admitting that he arranged to have Michaell come down from Michigan to join C:S.
  
• He talked about how he was positively referenced in a major magazine article, because "they", of course, create their own reality and would not allow anything negatively to be printed. How, then, is this site explained?
  
• He gives conflicting advice as to whether a crystal should be cleaned with seawater. Rumor has it that this change in position was done to placate an important friend.
  
• He says he refers to Jach as "the channel" because of difficulty in pronouncing the "a". This sounds to me like the sound of the "a" in Jach. Why not go for the more elegant approach?
  

Health, Healing and Longevity

I think this is an area where people should be EXTREMELY careful of the advice Lazaris gives. We only have to look at those closest to Lazaris to get an indication of their effectiveness. Given that he has not been shown to be 100% truthful in matters and given that his techniques as practiced clearly do not work for some very close to Lazaris, why would anyone follow his advice in this area when their life may be at stake?

I'm sure there have been many people who have had healings that they attribute to Lazaris. Even if they are legitimately shown to be caused by his healing ability or techniques, there are enough significant cases of failures to balance those examples. I do not question anyone who has been healed as to the legitimacy of their healing. What I question is the real source of that healing. It may have been that they were open to healing themselves and needed the extra oomph provided by some external event or intervention. I similarly don't question the healings performed by televangelists.

I recently heard an interesting story of how the people who live around Lourdes do NOT receive healing benefits. There seems to be a need to have to go through the process of searching and going out of one's way for people to allow the healing to happen. Peny's example comes to mind.

The source of many of his teachings regarding health can often be found at pamphlets in health food stores.

Finally, he has given what appears to be some outrageously harmful advice:

• A person was told in a private consultation not to worry about his smoking because it would fall away once he valued himself. This same theme has been told to others.
  
• Jogging before breakfast would make you turn food into fat later in the day.
  
• More than 15-20 minutes of aerobic exercise will make your mind go numb.
  

Guinea Pigs

Lazaris has related a story where he was channeling some healing energy through Jach at a hospital. The person ended up levitating off the bed. Lazaris claims he was getting used to the energy and it was part of his "learning curve".

Lazaris has often related stories of him trying a new technique out on Peny and Michaell. He says he often has to tweak the technique before making it generally available. He only make available supposedly those techniques that are shown by Peny and Michaell to have worked.

To me, those two stories indicate an irresponsible introduction of techniques that have not withstood the test of time. It is one thing if he had no need to test a technique because he has access to perennial wisdom. It is another thing that he has to use Peny and Michaell and us as guinea pigs. Look what happened to Peny and Micahel, along with many others closely related to C:S. This makes me very uneasy.

Effectiveness of Teachings

We endlessly beat ourselves if any techniques do not work. We assume the techniques are flawless. It must be us. Here is an excerpt that humorously illustrates the point:

I have to admit I have not followed this thread very closely, but I want to respond to something that seems to be a theme. That is the idea that C:S or Lazaris promises that material reality should easily be abundant because we are so spiritual. What I got VERY strongly from Lazaris, over and over again, was that material reality could easily be abundant because it isn't real -- it is, and I quote, "silly putty." We can have ALL OF THE SILLY PUTTY THAT WE WANT. And nobody had to even be "spiritual", or anything, except maybe willing. or deserving. or... And because it isn't real, it is all done with mirrors, so to speak, as soon as we get the hang of the mirrors, voila! Just recognize, acknowledge, forgive, and change. If that doesn't work right away, it is because of a resistance to recognizing. Or acknowledging. Or forgiving. Or changing. But change, which happens instantly, will happen if we will just be more brutally honest with ourselves, but more tender with others, more and more owning that we might still be in martyr, in self-pity, in shame, obeying our dark law, stuck in our web of anxiety, hanging onto the old bottom line, poisons, hidden agendas, oh, and of course, go to the causal plane, meet your ancient one half-blind, be willing to receive, be a winner not a loser, take your higher self, meet the old man, meet the old woman, meet all the archetypes, speak to all the muses, spin a disc, dance in triumph, go out on a mill, be sure to integrate all of the faces of the self, and practice a seven-day ritual every solstice and equinox, create a temple of dreams, go there every night, create a temple of your soul, go there every night, discover your spiritual heritage, go there every night, meet your boundary dweller, meet your bottom feeder, make a mask, take off the cloak of your world's disguise, program for 33 seconds, program with tones, work with your shadow, awaken your desire, awaken your brain, learn your personality drive, your lean, your soul's path, your ego's path, go to the very Goddess herself, go to the shining ones, go to the eagle people, the crystal people, the cat people, the dolphin people, go to the dog and cat people, go to your safe place, go to the edge of safety, go to the valley of lost souls, find your lost dreams, release your old dreams, work with your child, your adolescent, your young adult, your old adult, allow more of Lazaris' love, allow more of your higher self's love, expand your success cube, find that ribbon of road, discover your subconscious, go to the imaginal realm, go to Sirius, go to Lemuria, go the crystal cave, go in your double-tetrahedron, go in a dewdrop, go through the rip in time and space, meet a dwarf or gnome, meet a fairy, meet your council, meet an effeminate man, meet a bawdy woman, and don't forget to review all four steps to all seven processes for all of the above. Oh god, I have to stop because it is getting really late, but you all know I could GO ON AND ON AND ON!!!!!!!! But, dear ones, it is easy! It is not simple, but it is easy. It is not complicated, but it is complex. Only our martyrs fear the complex. It is silly putty, and we can have all the silly putty we want. There is nothing to stop us. If we don't have what we want in our reality, all we have to do is recognize, acknowledge, forgive and .....................

For every story of success with the techniques, I wonder how many of us could counter with our own humiliating failures? To quote someone who has had many private consultations: "Boy did he f*ck up some projects in my past...".

Psychic Ability

There have been reports of Lazaris mentioning peoples names during blendings and during crystal ceremonies. On rare occasions he also mentions something of a psychic nature. For example, one person reported that at his first seminar, Lazaris mentioned his first name and nickname. The nickname is something that he never gave to C:S or that anyone else there would know of. It was a very, very unique name combination according to this person.

There has been speculation that Jach/Lazaris is given a list of new attendees. Their names are usually mentioned during one of their first seminars, presumably to get them hooked. I know my name was mentioned during my first blending. There is also speculation about how Jach occasionally mentions someone's name during the Crystal Ceremony. This may be explained by a lot of possibilities. It is obvious to anyone who has watched Jach up close that he occasionally "peeks". As related earlier, old friends of Jach have said that he has an incredible memory for detail and people. This might allow him to identify someone who he either knows or was pointed out to him. How would Jach know people? Besides the obvious methods, one must not forget that during intensives that people wear nametags. Jach certainly sees his share of these people and if he has a great memory, would be able to retain such detail even at a future seminar where nametags might not be worn. Lazaris said my name once during the Crystal Ceremony, but I can't remember whether it was at an intensive (where my name could be easily peeked at the ceremony).

I also allow the possibility that Jach is psychic. So are a lot of people.

So what is the quality of his psychic abilities? Why was he not able to give us a warning of the Northridge earthquake, which happened early Sunday morning between days at a seminar in LA? Why did he not envision the future of Tradevest? It is fine if he doesn't want to give psychic advice, but then what are the end of year tapes all about?

Ted tells an amusing story :

I was at a workshop a few years back in Seattle and was stricken with a terrible stomach virus. When I approached "Lazaris" to receive my special, just for me, crystal which he randomly removed from the bag, he said, "look at you, you're glowing". I was actually exerting all my strength to avoid having a really embarrassing accident! "Lazaris" saw that as glowing?

Katie relates the story of how in her early Lazaris days she got some very clear impressions during a meditation about the topic of fear. She was shocked later when she came across the just released fear tape and found that sections were word for word what she heard during her earlier meditation. Anyone in the Lazaris mind-set would ask what clearer indication do you need about the existence of Lazaris? Someone outside of the mind-set might congratulate Katie on her tremendous psychic experience.

"Magic Time"

For those who have not witnessed this, "magic time" is a series of segments that Lazaris has over the course of an intensive. During a segment, which lasts about an hour and a half, Lazaris will give perhaps 3 or 4 people an opportunity to ask a question about their life.

While Lazaris treats each person differently, there are some to whom he gives shockingly brutal details about a past life. Even people who are not being talked to are often traumatized by these stories. There has been much written in psychological literature about people who are hypnotized or regressed developing false memories that were "encouraged" by the therapist. The subjects now swear these events are real. Subsequent investigation has found that they often are not real. People have been convicted for this type of behavior that Jach is practicing without a license. Imagine the harm that is possibly happening. Even if the information is real, we all assume that "since Lazaris said so", these people are emotionally and spiritually prepared to hear it. Unfortunately, I no longer trust Lazaris enough to take his word blindly.

There also appears to be some psychic phenomena demonstrated during these segments. Some might be explained by the well know techniques of fraudulent psychics. Some might be explained by Lazaris knowing details of this person's life either through prior private consultation or through the gossip mongering efforts of the C:S crew. Some might be explained by legitimate psychic phenomena. Again, a lot of people are psychic.

There is a very disturbing story of a mother and daughter who both were followers of Lazaris. They were also known to many of the seminar attendees. It turns out the mother was tangentially involved in the "forum storm". The daughter was given the mic at a magic time shortly after the forum incident. Lazaris suggested that she distance herself from her mother since here mother's thinking was not clear. It is hard to interpret this event as anything more than a blatant attempt to punish the mother for her alleged "disobedience" and serve as a veiled threat to anyone who might try the same. As to be expected, the prior loving relationship between mother and daughter was put to a severe test. This event also had a negative impact on others who knew the people involved. Fortunately, while the daughter still follows Lazaris and the mother does not, the strength of their prior relationship prevailed.

There have been other instances in the "magic time" where Lazaris has given what appears to me unduly needed and questionable advice to separate from family. Peny has stated that she is anti-family. Is it any surprise that Lazaris is also? Like his health advice, I think this is another area where people must be EXTREMELY cautious.

Hypnosis

Lazaris has gone through great pains to tell us when he is using hypnosis on us. He claims (as is the consensus of professional opinion) that to do so without our permission would be unethical. The problem is that most of us cannot figure out how his "meditations" differ in any way from his "hypnoses". If he makes such a big deal about the distinction, shouldn't we wonder?

There are powerful symbolic words and imagery that Lazaris often uses in his "meditations". Who is comfortable with their effect, given what seems to happen to those closest to Lazaris?

Channeling

In the book "Channeling & The New Spirituality" in Lazaris Interviews Book I (Concept Synergy Publishing - 1988), Lazaris himself raises some very interesting points regarding channeling:

Paraphrasing a paragraph on p47, Lazaris states that some entities are tricksters. He states how they come through offering some wonderful initial insights. One gets hooked to the entity. Then the entity starts screwing up your life.

In the last paragraph on p41, when discussing "Channeling & Discernment", he asks us to question whether the channeled material is applicable and useful or whether it is useless "mind-babble". He states that while it is curious and interesting to talk about ancient civilizations such as Lemuria and Atlantis, we must ask how this is going to help me become more of who am.

He warns in the prior paragraph about teachings that give you a sense of being less than who you are. Later on p42, he gives further guidelines relating to the discernment of channeled material. One of them is whether the material is consistent. On p57, he talks about people wanting the channeling to be a panacea. He talks about them saying they have found someone from other levels who is giving them all of the answers and will make their life work. He talks about them saying that they feel all they have to do is listen to all of the wisdom and have faith in it.

All of the above that Lazaris warns about I think applies to his own example. See the thread "Can't say we didn't warn ya!" at http://www.cosmicfool.com/discussion/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000250.html for further commentary.

Lazaris claims that he is an objective trance channel. He claims that, unlike others, he is not subject to the distortions of Jach's mind. He also claims what a high level he is from (in the arrogant statement that he has long since moved past levels and to name a level and he will be there). Unfortunately, if we initially earn the trust of Lazaris and take him at his word, we assume that this description of him is also true. At this point, we drop all discernment.

There are two interesting stories posted by Katie and Jade in reference to how easy it is to get into an altered state and start getting information. Katie's refers to a group of adults who got into an altered state and received significant healing information. See "Should we trust the words of Lazaris" at http://www.cosmicfool.com/discussion/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000169.html . Jade relates an experience (under the same topic) of a group of young teenage girls who had profound metaphysical experiences while playing a "spooky game". To me, the point to these stories is that just about anyone, especially with the help of a group, can have metaphysical experiences.

I have witnessed other channels, including a personal session with Kevin Ryerson of Shirley Maclaine fame. I got to know one of the channels well enough to see a little of his "back stage" personality. From all of this, I conclude that:

Is Jach a Fake?

While I don't think Jach is faking Lazaris in the classical sense, I do not believe that Lazaris is who he says he is.

One reason I do not believe Jach is faking it is because of an incident that happened in the 80s during a weeklong seminar. Someone was dissatisfied with the seminar and asked Peny for his money back. Peny did not handle this well, was crying, and barged into the seminar while Lazaris was talking and asked for a 20-minute or so emergency healing. Unless she is a great actor, I don't think she would do this.

Also, I think I have seen too much of Lazaris in trance to believe that he has faked a different personality so consistently over the years.

That said, I have severe doubts as to what Lazaris actually is. There are many possible explanations, all of which are almost impossible to prove.

I have little doubt that Jach, in his altered state, is taping into some type of cosmic or divine wisdom. In this altered state, Jach is also somewhat psychic and has a different personality compared to the normal Jach. However, I think the whole "Lazaris" character is a clever vehicle that has been constructed by a part of Jach's unconscious imagination. It appears to me that Jach did not like himself and may have been absolutely crazy about Peny. What better way to act on these feeling but to create an entity that publicly sings the virtues of this woman? This same entity does not hesitate to make disparaging comments about Jach, but never once has been heard to make any such remarks about Peny. The fact that Lazaris asked for Michaell to come down and join the C:S team makes me wonder if Jach had a subconscious desire to hurt himself by sabotaging the relationship between himself and Peny. This is all PURE SPECULATION, but it certainly explains a lot to me.

I cannot accept the explanation of Lazaris being all he said he is for all the reasons already stated in the rest of this discussion.

Is it a Cult?

I initially found the idea that C:S is a cult to be far fetched. My latest thinking, as a result of more and more evaluation and research, is that it indeed has certain cult-like similarities. There is an excellent web site created by Steve Hassan (www.freedomofmind.com) that describes cults. There are other web resources that you can easily find. Don't be put off by being lumped together with Moonies and Scientologists. Read what is said and draw your own conclusions.

Steve makes a distinction between cults and destructive cults. I think C:S started out as more of a non-destructive cult, but is starting to degenerate into a destructive one. The behavior of the C:S group, especially as evidence in their forum, is the first sign that something is amiss.

Steve uses the BITE model to determine if a cult is destructive. The acronym stands for Behavior, Information, Thought, and Emotion control. See http://www.freedomofmind.com/resource/srmind.htm for more information. When you evaluate C:S, make sure you evaluate with the workings of C:S and the forum in mind.

Steve's site also talks about "love bombing" (We will love you forever and a day...):

"Mind-control techniques such as love-bombing are designed to bypass a person's intelligence and especially his critical-thinking skills. When a... person suddenly receives an overwhelming amount of love and acceptance, it is extremely difficult for him to stand back and assess the reasons for this or question something he desperately doesn't want to have disappear."

I think if you evaluate many cults you will find that most start out by someone having some sort of divine contact or inspiration. As time marches, the eventual power and money seems to get the better of them. They then start to display increasingly unacceptable and controlling behavior and slowly loose their original divine contact. Some go to the extreme (e.g., Heaven's Gate, Branch Dividian's, etc.). Others are finally stopped by authorities. Others continue along, successfully dodging attacks.

If a cult is not destructive in the classic sense, I think there is still danger whenever members of the group stop thinking for themselves - even if just for a little.

A Parable

Katie presents the following parable:

We see two men crawling through the desert, they are sunburned and parched, their eyes are bulging out, and they look close to death. All they can dream of is a glass of cold clear water.

As they crawl along they are plagued by the visions of oases, which always turn out to be mirages. They are losing hope.

Just as they are gasping their last breaths, they see ahead a brightly decorated tent in which stands a finely and colorfully dressed man. Next to the tent is a big sign, which says WATER. The parched men are sure this is just another mirage, but as they crawl closer they begin to realize that finally their hopes have been fulfilled. This is for real.

The jolly friendly man greets them and bargains with them for the last of their belongings. They give him the contents of their pockets, (maybe they had treasure in their, I forget), but what they have, they give for a life saving glass of water.

As they drink they are so relieved and grateful to this happy go lucky stranger, to them he is the most beautiful man on earth, and the price he charged for the water was irrelevant. Such was their need and desire for the cool refreshment he provided in their moment of dire need.

Now the camera pans back, and we see the bigger picture. The big beautifully decorated brightly colored tent is obscuring from view a true oasis where this cool clear water flows abundantly, free and available to all.

So What?

Given all of the above, there are those who still say "So what?". They feel as long as the techniques are working for them, they don't care what is going on behind the scenes and appear to care little if Lazaris is whom he says he is. I am not in a position to judge if they are on their right path. I only ask that they consider these questions:

• Do you use your own thinking and discernment to evaluate which of the techniques you will use and what of his teachings you will accept?
  
• Have you considered that the positive changes that you had were within you all along?
  
• Have you consulted your inner guidance to see if this is still the right path for you to be on?
  
• Are you afraid of betraying Lazaris? If he is anything close to what he says he is, do you think this would be possible when you are simply applying discernment as he oft suggested and you are honoring your own path?
  
• Do you worry at all about what has happened to those who have been closest to Lazaris and have been with his teachings the longest?
  

I think there has been enough material presented to give anyone pause for serious thought.

Cheers, Craig

What you said actually gave me a new perspective on cults generally. First of all I think we would agree that there are positive and negative things in us all. It struck me while I was reading your post that cults steal the good things and leave us with the bad.

So if we are ill and get better, it is because of following the rules of the cult. If we have an accident, say, then it is our own fault. So we come to see ourselves as the source of all negative things, and the cult as the source of all good things.

My word! That is one seriously excellent bit of summation.

I think this post should be moved to the "Friend or Fraud" part of the site, which as you mention, is already long outdated. We have learned much since originally posting that material.

This beautiful and succinct writing of yours really should be provided in a permanent place I think. Would that be ok with you?

I haven't discussed this thought with Ted yet, but I can't think why he would object.

In all that, I found only one slight inaccuracy. The email which went out to our friends telling them that they would be breaking the law if they continued speaking to us was not sent by Con:Sin, but by a fellow forum member who was also a member on our private message board. It is presumed that she was acting on Peny's orders.

quote:

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Unfortunately, if we initially earn the trust of Lazaris and take him at his word, we assume that this description of him is also true. At this point, we drop all discernment.

---

I think this is the most significant of statements in a sea of them.

This is all about discernment. Interestingly, that topic has also come up on the other message board. I sincerely trust that this key issue becomes the foundation there as it is here.

Thank you so much for all the time and work you put into this most excellent post Craig!!!

Bravo!!!

Katie

Thanks for the kind words Katie and Pete!

Katie, I would be delighted if you moved it to the general section. I think it might be a good idea to give things a few days to see if there are any comments that might deserve a tweaking of the post.

Both your and Pete's comments I think warrant a change or two in the post.

Any others who have any comments, please feel free to reply. If you do not feel comfortable replying in public, Katie can email you my address (Katie: please give my ATT.COM address). I promise to keep any information sent via email confidential without your explicit permission to use it.

However, as the post is my opinion, I will not include anything in it that I don't agree with.

Unless anyone has any specific questions addressed to me about this post, I would prefer at this point to sit back and listen to your comments for a while. I sincerely welcome your comments and thoughts.

Great job! I do agree with Katie that this would be a good addition to the Friend or Fraud section. I think we could add some links to this discussion board to specific threads which deal with the concepts in your posts. That way one can read the summary and be able to see more specific information/opinions at the leasure.

quote:

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It struck me while I was reading your post that cults steal the good things and leave us with the bad.

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Sad to say, I have seen the same thing.

But, there is that awesome RUSH of freedom when we leave that I believe provides fertile soil for the speedy restoration all we lost, and more.

Tick Tick!!

Katie

quote:

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So we come to see ourselves as the source of all negative things, and the cult as the source of all good things.

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I found myself looking at my growth in terms of how successful I was at working with the material (making it the standard), instead of doing my evaluation in terms of how well the material was working for me. I would have quit many years earlier if I had been looking at my self from my own point of view, rather than an internalized lens of the Orb's teaching.

Jade

Jade

One great summing up indeed.

Steve

I really appreciate your time and effort for putting all this together. I have been sorting through many threads here, but also through private conversations with others who are just as muddled by what the hell is really going on with Lazaris as I am. I asked someone else to read what you put together and we ended up starting from the beginning again, questioning Lazaris and Jach, as if we hadn't been at that already for months.

Like many I know have said, if Lazaris is who he says he is, then he would be cheering and whistling for all of us who are actually scrutinizing the material, not just swallowing it wholesale. I did do that mindless digestion of the material for so long, but I picked apart everything else in my life, so it really is weird that I let all the little "huh's" about my experiences with C:S go on for so long.

I can see very easily how one can come to the conclusion that Lazaris is a fraud and that C:S is nothing more than an awful, greedy cult. So much evidence abounds to support that conclusion. But, there are so many personal experiences which indicate to me that he is real.

One thing which always hangs me up though: all the things I ever bothered to even vaguely question Lazaris about and which still get me as I sort through it all are the times when Lazaris spoke indulgently about any one of the troika. I would have to say that for now, my very incomplete assessment is that Lazaris is real, he is not infallible, and is in fact just as capable of being codependent as any human. But even that seems too bizarre. I do like the name "Bizaarrus." It sums up my confusion with it all.

I have many thoughts, but here are two which I feel confident posting: retribution from Lazaris is not even a remote concern of mine. But, retribution from C:S is a very real possibility. So, what does that say about the very company making available the information I have used for years to live my life?

The other is that I think that if Lazaris is real, there is a possibility that a lot of the way we think he views Peny was never actually written by him at all. I recently read that letter he supposedly wrote at the beginning of the Sacred Journey book and it just didn't "sound" like him. It was as florid and weird as the stupid flyers C:S sends out ad nauseum. It is very possible that Jach wrote that "Love letter" as "Lazaris" calls it in the book.

It has never sat well with me that, like in that really pathetic tv version of Mists of Avalon, there would have to be some real great sacrifice in order to bring about the new world, and Jach's was being told to divorce his wife so she could sleep with another man. How difficult would it have been for Jach to continue channeling and still be with his wife? Seth never told Jane to divorce Robert. Can you imagine if an invisible entity moved some man into your house to sleep with you wife and made you become its channel and wouldn't even refer to you by name? I have to say, that is one of the things which makes me go "Huh?" Talk about great sacrifice and being preempted in your ability to create your own reality. That is one of the biggest things which hangs me up and makes me queasy, wondering if my privacy has been invaded over the last umpidumpt years by a not-very-nice threesome.

But as one of my friends pointed out, it is intellectually dishonest to dismiss the entire body of Lazaris material out of hand. I agree with this. While I do hold the possibility that Jach is a psychotic and is making all this up, I can't say that I really think that is true either.

The only real conclusion I can come to is that Peny was real mean fucker. That she might also have been a very loving soul is not something I am remotely able to say. But, at least two people I know say they can believe that is true. Sadly, what makes it very easy for me to question all of this is not the deaths of Mr and Mrs on their own. What really got me was hearing the details of a very nasty betrayal and character assasignation which Peny deliberately orchestrated at a person's expense in order to amuse herself and her hyper-bright New York crystal jock friend. I didn't believe it at first, so I asked for proof and I got it. It is irrefutable proof which provided me the courage to take my doubts on and delve right in.

Like I said, all I know so far, though is that Peny was a very nasty woman. What was it that she was immortalized as having by one of her Gang, "a wicked sense of humor"? In spades, and while the part about her having listenened in on private consultations is, as far as I can tell, still unproven, I can tell you that she was not above taking personal and private details she learned about people and ruining them with it. It might be harder for me to believe but for the fact that I was told and then given the irrefutable proof of how she malicisciously hurt certain individuals.

What I think is hard for many people who come to this site is that they think the Crystal Queen of the old Forum was the real nasty one of the bunch, not Peny. In fact, while there is very good evidence pointing to the fact that he and Peny never stopped being friends after the "Forum Storm"--and who cares, btw, she can be friends with whoever will take her, like we even have a say--several people I know think he knew their gig right off and thought it would be fun to run them around a little.

The irony is that Peny's obvious desire to appease the one who appeared to see right through her, was perhaps the beginning of C:S's demise. She did backflips to make sure her Queen was never "reprimanded" the way everyone else was for not falling into blissful purple stupors over Peny and Lazaris. All this for a guy who openly said he could see no point in attending the seminars. Whew. Any of you try that at home and see what it gets you.

But it lead to the Forum Storm, and the beginning of outright open questioning into just who these people really are. What is weird is that Lazaris himself said that in our world, grandiosity will always bring you down. He said it was how we set it up as humans.

There is still so much more that needs to be uncovered. I think it will be, though. It might be another year or more, but I think if there is anything to be unravelled, it will be.

Lots of information comes out about shady people after the fact all the time. Hillary Clinton comes to mind in particular because it was really strange to me how much Peny hated Hillary Clinton, but before Peny disappeared off the Forum, she started writing all these posts about how much pain Hillary must have been in and that we needed to see her compassionately, or something like that, and that getting the hair jokes was very mean and hurtful of everyone to do to Hillary? Did Peny suddenly realize by reading this site as Katie says she has evidence that Peny did, how hated she was even if at that time, by only a few? That must have really weirded her out if so, because I believe she was so used to controlling everyone's opinion of her. Maybe she started to see the writing on the wall and wanted to get the juices flowing in peoples' talkboxes about how she was, afterall, a really good woman. Maybe she was to some people in the world, but her actions were not loving towards people I know.

Welcome!

You wrote:

quote:

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...there is a possibility that a lot of the way we think he views Peny was never actually written by him at all. I recently read that letter he supposedly wrote at the beginning of the Sacred Journey book and it just didn't "sound" like him. It was as florid and weird as the stupid flyers C:S sends out ad nauseum. It is very possible that Jach wrote that "Love letter" as "Lazaris" calls it in the book.

---

I have heard "Lazaris" speak glowingly of Peny in seminars and on tapes as well. If Lazaris was mis-quoted, wouldn't they have an obligation to correct the information later? I've often heard the theory that some of the stuff comes from Jach and some from Lazaris. I don't think it makes sense. Certainly, if someone came in here claiming to be me, I would set the record straight, ASAP. Unless what they said was really wise and made me look good Just kidding...

You wrote:

quote:

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But as one of my friends pointed out, it is intellectually dishonest to dismiss the entire body of Lazaris material out of hand

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I'm not sure what you mean by this. If Jach is an out-an-out fraud, that doesn't mean that everything he said while claiming to be Lazaris is false. It would be absurd to say that something is wrong simply because "Lazaris" said it.

You wrote:

quote:

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In fact, while there is very good evidence pointing to the fact that he (Crystal Queen) and Peny never stopped being friends after the "Forum Storm"--and who cares, btw, she can be friends with whoever will take her, like we even have a say--several people I know think he knew their gig right off and thought it would be fun to run them around a little.

---

After Peny died and Jach sent out that irresponsible email glorifying Michaell's suicide, I called the Crystal Queen on the phone to see if he may be able to talk some sense to Jach. He told me he had been in contact with C:S all along and knew exactly what was going on. He then told me he knew about the "filth" I was spreading on the internet, told me to F*** myself and hung up.
So there's no question in my mind that the relationship continued.

And I do think it's our business because people in the Forum were told to "get out of their co-dependent" relationship with him if they had anything good to say about him. People were ordered to hate him. It is our business that these scumbags saw fit to judge others' mental and spiritual state while they played footsie with the "enemy".

I wonder if they worked out a deal where the Crystal Queen (I like that moniker, BTW) would take the fall for Peny Soprano in exchange for all the wonderful Tibeten Buddist trinkets Peny was buying on eBay.

[[[After Peny died and Jach sent out that irresponsible email glorifying Michaell's suicide, I called the Crystal Queen on the phone to see if he may be able to talk some sense to Jach. He told me he had been in contact with C:S all along and knew exactly what was going on. He then told me he knew about the "filth" I was spreading on the internet, told me to F*** myself and hung up.
So there's no question in my mind that the relationship continued.]]]

I am sorry, but I laughed when I read this. What else could the peons of indigo doom expect? That we might be treated to the truth? I wonder what the Gang feels about this? I never got the impression they really liked him very much. Didn't one of them say after the Xtal Maven "left" that he "never really liked him" anyway? As if the Queen would ever give a damn who liked him. That makes the whole thing between him and Peny so desperately sad: she seemed willing to do anything to make him happy (she really bought him tons of Tibetan stuff?) but he didn't ever seem to treat her the way a friend would be treated if you loved that friend. Not to mention the complete lack of evidence that there was intimacy and care and love and all that the way Lazaris teaches.

If he knows about the "filth," he must be reading along. I think he HAS to read along. The very way he pitted people against one another behind their backs, through Peny, and in broad daylight...can you imagine such an opus and then not following up to see whether or not your legacy endures? This site and others, and all the non-internet people who are deeply questioning the way C:S operates is as much a legacy of his as it is Peny's. The deaths only accelerated the questions for many. He MUST be reading along.

[[[And I do think it's our business because people in the Forum were told to "get out of their co-dependent" relationship with him if they had anything good to say about him. People were ordered to hate him.]]]

I can't say I recall anyone ever being told to hate him. That actually happened? I know Peny sent out private emails sort of sucking back up to some of the individuals who had been trampled by him with her tacit or not tacit approval. I do remember though that Peny's apology was that she had a soft spot for gay men and he reminded her of an aunt she loved. That was her apology and it really was awful when the German woman wrote to Peny and said to her in essence you still have not taken responsibilty and Peny told her to examine why she created this reality. That was punishing and codependendent of Peny and I never forgot it. Not to mention that by never ever ever asking him to stop being so outright nasty to people, it held this man to a lesser standard of behavior and suggested that he wasn't capable of more maturity. If you were someone who had worked even at the most basic level with the Lazaris material on relationships and intimacy, you would not respond this way and be respecting the other person or yourself.

I don't remember hearing anyone telling people to hate anyone. The people I remember telling others to snap out of their fawning over him (like the woman who had referred to him as being an ancient one--she was like a chew toy they wouldn't let go) were the Gang members. Peny and Jach didn't say anything other than what I already mentioned.

[[[It is our business that these scumbags saw fit to judge others' mental and spiritual state while they played footsie with the "enemy".]]]

I do see your point, but I don't agree totally because they seem to do that anyway. I meant it in the most "no one can tell me who to play with" kind of thing.

Pippa

[[[I'm not sure what you mean by this. If Jach is an out-an-out fraud, that doesn't mean that everything he said while claiming to be Lazaris is false. It would be absurd to say that something is wrong simply because "Lazaris" said it.]]]

When I say it would not be intellectually honest to dismiss the all information Lazaris gives, what I am saying is that by working the material, I have gained a lot of insight. So, I am not willing to write off everything, even if it turns out it is a cult.

No, I don't think they ever ordered anyone to hate the Queen in those words. But they sure jumped down people's throats if they offered even the tiniest of positive sentiments towards him. And they encouraged people to trash him. Though I'm sure many didn't need much encouragement - just permission. You may be right that Peny and Jach didn't get directly involved with that - I don't remember. But does the Gang ever act without Peny's approval? If so, why didn't they take Miss Thing on before that?

I must have been gone when the German woman posted. Of course she created the reality - Peny had nothing to do with it. Everyone creates their own reality except the World's Most Powerful Magician.

You asked if she really bought him a lot of Tibeten stuff. Well, I can't prove that she did, but she was bidding on everything Tibeten on eBay for weeks, and at quite high prices. The Queen had mentioned in his email to Katie that he was going to re-visit Tibeten Buddhism. And, of course, we know from the Forum that he was into it. Peny never indicated any fascination with it, and she wasn't bidding on it prior to the storm. When the Lazaris concubine routine failed, I think she resorted to buying friendships.

Yes, I'm quite sure that the Queen can't resist reading here. It brings a smile to my face

I'm glad to see you are doing such exhaustive questioning.

Your post causes me to rethink my own view of who the hell Lazaris really is.

I briefly raised the question in another post whether Jach has Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD). Bear with me, this gets a little dry if you aren't intrigued by psychology.

There has been much scientific research done on people with this disorder. It is known that different personalities can have remarkable physical differences that change just as quickly as the new personality flips into play. For example, one personality may have diabetes and the other doesn't. One personality may be nearsighted and the other has normal vision. One may be allergic to one substance and the other is fine. All of these can be measured objectively using standard medical tests. The psychological differences between the multiples can be more profound, but obviously much harder to measure with any objectivity. There is always the lurking question of whether they are faking it. Obviously, they can't fake the physical reactions.

My understanding is that it is generally the case that one personality may have little if any conscious knowledge of the other. Also, it is common that these alternate multiples develop as a coping mechanism to deal with some (usually childhood) abuse or pain.

I have no idea what Jach's past is. For the sake of argument, let's assume there were some very traumatic incidents. Lets assume he was head over heals in love with Peny. I know from observing various relationships around me, there is absolutely no rhyme or reason sometimes when someone falls in love with another person. No matter how abusive or mean that other person is, no matter how vehemently friends and family try to point this out, the person just doesn't see it.

Now let's further assume that no matter what Jach did, Peny did not demonstrate the intensity of love that Jach gave to Peny (doesn't take too much imagination for this one).

Given these assumptions, I can see how a multiple could develop with the intent of trying to gain the love of Peny that the normal Jach could not gain. Given Peny's known interest in metaphysics, all it takes is a little creativity to come up with the concept of pretending to chanel an entity that would show absolute, unconditional love to Peny and that Peny would indeed love in return. To be able to impress Peny, this personality/"entity" would have to come through in a deep trance state so that it could tap into universal truths and have certain psychic abilities.

We know Peny knew about channeling before Lazaris. I'm sure Jach was aware of many details of this from having hung out with Peny since high school. Then a brilliant idea emerges. Have the entity claim that he is an objective channel eliminating the question in Peny's mind that the love being expressed was just from a spillover of that old dreadful Jach's subconscious mind. Let's call the entity Lazaris and refer to ourselves using the plural form just as a little joke or hint about our true origin within the multiples of Jach's mind. Let's refer to Jach as the "unit" or "channel" so as not to revolt Peny by the mention of Jach's name.

As time passes, Jach realizes that while Peny does indeed fall in love with Lazaris, she still has contempt for Jach. But as this is the only love that Jach can receive from Peny, he will settle. Then, the Lazaris personality gets a little feisty, and decides to invite Michaell down so that Peny can fall in love with a real human. Hell, what's wrong with a little friendly matchmaking? We know Peny will ask Lazaris for advice, so we can spin things so that they fall in love. Why would a part of Jach do that to himself? Many motives, none of them healthy, could explain this.

I am in no way saying (nor do I but remotely believe) that Jach did any of this consciously. This may have all been done either subconsciously, unconsciously, or by his multiple.

I realize this all sounds pretty far-fetched. But is it really any more far-fetched than what we've been lead to believe the past 30 years?

I think there are many explanations that describe the phenomena that we have witnessed. I offer two challenges as a tool as we all form our own opinion of who the hell is Lazaris:

1) Present evidence of any behavior, fact or observation that can not be explained the model I have just offered.

2) Offer an alternative model that we will also subject to challenge #1.

Please do not accept what I have offered. Poke holes in it. I love a good challenge!

I don't have a lot of time to write, but wanted to say that what you are hypothesizing about Jach is very close to what I have come to accept as the most logical explanation for the existance of Lazaris.

It's the only theory I can come up with contains an answer to all the question.

Although, it doesn't answer the question "how is Jach so brilliant, if he's faking?" but I dont think he's even close to as brilliant as he appears. I think it's all smoke and mirrors, evolved, and developed through hit and miss over the years.

If the internet has taught us anything, it's how the mind fills in the blanks of what it can't see.

A fair test would be for each of us to write a discription of each other, those of us who have never seen each other.

Then post pics after the descriptions are in.

I know from experience how incredibly inaccurately we imagine people, but, how incredibly accurate our mind is at creating what we want to see.

If this were not true, there would be no such thing as "cyber sex".

Does this make sense? "Jachzaris", Jach, Peny, the Gang, provide the suggestions, and our minds follow along and create all these spectacular events, coincidences, psychic moments etc. beyond the wonderful love and sense of connection any true seeker would experience anyway.

Just some thoughts.

Katie

You wrote:

"But, there are so many personal experiences which indicate to me that he is real."

I think it's possible to experience something "real" even when in the presence of a complete fraud--the fraud becomes a touchstone for your own wisdom (not the source of it) and the reality of the experience is not necessarily proof that the fraud is genuine.

flo

You wrote:

"I realize this all sounds pretty far-fetched. But is it really any more far-fetched than what we've been lead to believe the past 30 years?"

Doesn't sound farfetched to me--probably because it's very close to my own thoughts on the subject. :)

From the flowery tone in Peny's letter about her spiritual journey (invoking images of Bedouin tents and dancing goddesses--it reads like a New Age Harlequin Romance)I'm betting she invested her seeker status with a lot of glamour--and being married to a stolid insurance agent climbing the corporate ladder doesn't quite jibe with Isis whirling round your tent of an evening.

Enter Jach (having known her since they were fourteen) as hubby, having spent years in an environment saturated with mysticism. Forever and a day of listening to Peny blather on about Blavatsky and channeling and magick, all of it seeping into his subconscious, taking root--then magically, an entity appears who plucks Peny out of her Mrs. Allstate life, an entity that informs her that she is the spark of light holding the New Age together and suddenly she's no longer just a young married with a bunch of Atlantis books on her night stand, she's one half of a spiritual movement--with a very special kind of non-corporate husband in tow.

I've lived for years with someone who has a devotion to a topic that doesn't natively interest me; given the right set of combustible emotional circumstances, I could disappear into a trance and spew forth all the information I've absorbed subconsciously over the years and appear to be a past master in the subject--throw in a measure of psi power, an unconscious near-commandment to please the loved one and suddenly, I'm channeling Fuji Wang Tu, sixteenth century orientalist, fully believing it to be real (due in no small part to my loved one being lit up with pleasure and excitement.)

I think a mixture of circumstances and psychic talent created the personality of Lazaris, not conscious fraud on Jach's part. I have no idea what psychological niche that would fit in (delusion leaps to mind) but the idea that he's been consciously faking has never struck me as the answer.

Some husbands give their wives flowers and chocolates--Jach gave his Lazaris.

I don't want to appear rude in not replying to any posts right now.

Somehow I "lost" a day...I'm going on vacation on Saturday and completely forgot that I will be totally out of pocket for a good deal of Friday. That leaves me with a lot less time than I was counting on to take care of the myriad of pre-vacation details.

I'll certainly be lurking, and maybe doing a post or two as time permits.

Thanks for letting us know.

Have a great vacation!!!!

Actually, I have thought similar things on my own. I can see how Jach might have been devastated by being rejected. Lazaris referred to Jach's personality Enneagram type often. He said Jach is a three type and that one can become psychotic when it deteriorates.

But, I am not comfortable saying how much Peny loved Jach or the other way around because I never witnessed anything in particular and so how could I know? And even then, I would not be an authority on it.

What does upset me is the notion that a man was essentially moved out of his wife's bed to make room for another man and then, the first man becomes some celibate servant of sorts to the new couple. He has said that in the face of all that love he couldn't help but do that, but if that is so, why doesn't he address all the many questions about it? Or, why doesn't Lazaris at least do so?

Unless I am not getting something right, it doesn't seem that this would fit into the system of reliaty creation the entity himself teaches.

Your theories are as good as any I've come up with so I can't even poke holes in it.

[[[[I think it's possible to experience something "real" even when in the presence of a complete fraud--the fraud becomes a touchstone for your own wisdom (not the source of it) and the reality of the experience is not necessarily proof that the fraud is genuine.]]]

Yes, that is a good point. I have been wondering how smart I might just have been on my own all this time after all. Of course, I want to make sure I am not in my negative ego about this! LOL.

Thanks, Pippa

flo

[/B][/QUOTE]

[[[Does this make sense? "Jachzaris", Jach, Peny, the Gang, provide the suggestions, and our minds follow along and create all these spectacular events, coincidences, psychic moments etc. beyond the wonderful love and sense of connection any true seeker would experience anyway.]]]

This makes some sense to me. In Craig's analysis that began this thread, he referred to the mirage metaphor you made. That stays with me. There is so much profound though about my experience with Lazaris, that, while I am very open to considering things like what you say above, it might take me a while to relaly be able to accept that if it is true. Not because I think I am in denial, but because it is one of those things which ahs to be digested slowly.

Pippa

I have spent a few days with the material that you put together and I want to thank you for your efforts. I plan to show my circle of family and friends copies of your document.

You wrote,

"While reviewing the material, I cut and pasted those sections that seemed to be of interest. Even in what I cut and pasted, I found a fair amount of repetition. I decided against the idea of organizing this information due to the time I projected it would take. There are over 100 pages of such material. I will make this information available to anyone who is interested."

I would be very interested.

One point I would not mind adding in regards to the issues of Con:Sin being a cult and that Lazaris gives out questionable health advice...

My sister made a very good point the other day. Anyone who follows the earlier material knows about the 'Sleep' tape. This is where Lazaris trains you to live with only 4 hours a sleep per night. (3 for the body and 1 for the emotional state as I remember.) Well my brother and I tried to do this for a long time and it left me in a zoned state that can only be brought on by sleep deprivation. As my sister went on to pointed out, sleep deprivation is a classic method cults use to control their followers.

quote:

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As my sister went on to pointed out, sleep deprivation is a classic method
cults use to control their followers.

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Good to hear from you.

Jade

Please email me with your address and I will send you a copy of the raw quotes. Just so a "web crawler" doesn't pick up my email address and start spamming me, I will give it to you in a weird format as if it were being read to you:

DOUBLECHECKCS at ATT dot NET

You make a great point about the sleep tape. In addition to the cult aspect you mention, I think this flies against all current medical wisdom regarding sleep. I think I've heard that sleep deprivation causes either more or close to the same number of deaths in the U.S. as does drunk driving. The fact that you and your brother were zoned out indicates to me that this advice was harmful to the health of the both of you. I'm wondering if you caused a car accident while "under the influence" of this advice whether C:S would be legally liable.

Cheers, Craig

quote:

---

[Does this make sense? "Jachzaris", Jach, Peny, the Gang, provide the suggestions, and our minds follow along and create all these spectacular events, coincidences, psychic moments etc.beyond the wonderful love and sense of connection any true seeker would experience anyway.

---

In my experience, this area of personal psychic events that occurred during the years involvement with the Orb is a snare that is the toughest to see through because of course we want to trust our own experience, and especially those transcendent experiences.

IMO, the paradigm through which we view our spiritual life sets the stage for the experiences. All the great religions of the world have at least some followers who have had powerful spiritual experiences from the point of view of their belief system.

Unfortunately, the spiritual setoften gets more credit and validation than the universal love, knowledge and understanding that is accessed.

Jade

We are having more discussions here in my community about what has concerned us about Lazaris but we chose to set aside our concerns because of who he claims to be. Many of the issues are repeats of what has been covered before but here is one that I do not remember others discussing...SEX!

Lazaris is almost derogatory in his comments about it. The separation of sexuality from spirituality is a very old religious taboo method of controlling people. Sex is one of the greatest powers. Hell it got us here! And Lazaris never had any (and I wonder it Jach had any either all these years 'channeling'.)
We have seen the results in the various Christian churches when you pretend you are above sexuality.

When studying Kriya Yoga (this is stuff dating back 6,0000 years of Tantric traditions) you realize that to deny any part of yourself, specially something as powerful as the sex drive, is very warped.

So where are all of the healthy sexual teachings in the Lazaris material? This is a great power that most people misuse or use in a completely unconscious manner. It's is a huge topic and one that can not be ignored.

Your questions about sex are most thought provoking. I think there are other areas where Lazaris also doesn't have a clue. The biggest that comes to mind is family. Of course, without sex, you don't have much of a family to worry about!

It seems his view of family is always from the perspective of what harm our parents did to us. I have heard very little about what we as parents can do to help our own offspring.

Why do we have such a restrictive view on certain topics? Does Lazaris need to experience physicality through Peny and Jach to be able to comment on it? If so, are we all destined to become like Peny and Jach if we follow the material "good enough"? Are we all part of one huge experiment? That would be somewhat OK if Lazaris had the integrity to admit it. But he hasn't.