I wonder if what yo are writing about ought to be another thread. I think people like me who are reading along and really don't give a dump about Chris will skip this thread and miss the post you just wrote. I only ended up here because Sky Voice referenced your vulnerability in this thread so I was curious.

I think you might want to cull this out and name it something which references how difficult it is to fly on one's own. It is just a suggestion. I will post here anyway.

You wrote: [[[[My frustration about my L experience is that I became convinced during my follower years that those experiences were the result of my "adult" healing my "child" through the use of the L techniques. I even gave that spontaneous and profoundly personal relationship away to the Orb. AND in doing so, I realize now, I disconnected from it, defaulting instead to further use of the L material, and superimposing the Orb over it. I came to believe that all that love and support I had felt as a child was from the Entity, or my adult self. I dropped the thought that it was a direct connection right out of my conscious mind for twelve fucking years.]]]]

This is one of the reasons I can see how Lazaris is a hindrance to spirituality rather than a help. It has not been easy at times for me over these last months when I realize that maybe the way I came to view the world for the last x amount of years is false. It terrifies me sometimes to realize that maybe I am without any frame of reference. That what I have been doing for all this time is now not true. I managed well enough, but what about the future? What will get me through?

BUT, strangely enough, I always know I am okay. LOL. I even had Lazaris pop into my head one day and tell me I was just fine and would be fine in the future. Well, I don't know what that is worth now, if anything. One conclusion I am coming to, I think, is that whether or not Lazaris is a sham, I will go home, I will be magical, I will be loving, and I will be fulfilled and I will not have to wear the mantel of being a "mapmaker" in order to achieve any of that.
I know some pretty spiritual people who never heard of Lazaris before. He has said on several occasions that we as mapmakers "know more about spirituality than anyone else on the planet." That always weirded me out. I never thought it was an outright better-than, even though it made me uncomfortable. Maybe it is a better-than. On the other hand, initiates into any spiritual calling do end up knowing more than those who aren't called. So, it is an enigma.

That reminds me, I never once told anyone outside of two family members and one friend about Lazaris. And, what is more, I generally could not tolerate to be around most of the people I met at workshops because they made my bullshit meter ring my head off. So, at least I don't have much saving face to do. LOL! But, the questions are interesting as to why I would not ever have wanted to tell anyone. One thing is that I do believe my spirituality is sacred and not just casual conversation. But I also knew it was just too freaky for most people and I was not interested in being considered a wackjob. Even if I apparently am a wackjob afterall. LOL.

But that is a diversion. What struck me about your post was that before going to Lazaris events, I was very close to God and had absolutely no problem just chatting away with God. I also had an established relationship with someone, who, I don't know, but I decided after "meeting" Lazaris that it is my Higher Self. Whoever that being is, its presence was around me all the time and was very palpable. Now, since my questions have taken hold, I have noticed that my HS has lit out. I don't feel deserted and all alone, but I am not able to get in touch with her the same way anymore. It is very intriguing.

[[[[I don't know if it's possible to put into words the devastation I feel about having done that, or how much I grieve for the lost years of allowing my own experience.]]

This is poignant. I was wondering about this, too, for myself. But, I so often would have these great experiences outside of the Lazaris material and would just assume it was God/Goddess and never feel any need to "okay it" with Lazaris. Maybe I have wasted a lot of time, though. Maybe it could have been a lot deeper.

[[[I didn't need the Orb to speak to me of "God Goddess, All that Is". I surely didn't need them to tell me how complicated it is to get that "far" up the ladder of consciousness, or that I needed help to approach The Divine. But,somehow, by changing my view and understanding of my childhood experiences, I cut myself off from the truth and significance of them.]]]

This is very interesting, too. Recently, I have been reviewing my past as many of the players from it have returned to my life. It is amazing how differently I see the way my life really was than I saw it just months ago when Lazaris was still not in question.

People have been saying some incredible things to me about who they always saw me to be, but who I didn't see myself to be. I thought I had become that person because I have been working these techniques all this time. But, I am constantly reminded now of all the ways I had it together. I was not together in many, many ways, but spiritually, I was very tuned in.

The question for me is how long would it have taken me to get the rest of my act together without the Lazaris material. I am not willing to say right now that I would have been able to figure it out on my own by now.

But, I might have. That is the crazy making part, but it is also the part which inspires me to just go on and live my life.
I am here. By whatever means I got here, I am here. I can love, I am going home in a way I know is true, I am fulfilled, and I am happy. If Lazaris helped, thanks. If Lazaris is a fraud and I have some billuous wreckage to clean out, then I will do that. And, I will demand that the people accountable for any fraud be held responsible for it.

[[[[I think I was lucky in a way to have had my communication before I was steeped too far into any dogma. The Catholic church, for all it's power never succeeded in keeping a hold on me. I always had my "little secret", that had nothing to do with Jesus or all his Saints, Popes, Priests and Nuns.]]]]

Exactly. And it was not a dirty little secret, but a sacred one. I get it. I know just what you mean. That is what people are looking for, and the poignancy is that for many Lazaris fills it, while for others we wonder if he sullied it.

But I don't know yet whether or not he did. It might be a pity he created a reality, if he is real, where so many are hurt and in pain. On the other hand, I had been asking for help from Goddess before Peny died to guide me to the knowledge I needed in order to be the "nicer, more compassionate" person I knew I really was and Boom! I get a call from a friend who lets me in on the backstage goings on of C:S and proved it to me when I balked. That prompted me to ask the questions leading me to regain my own perspective and committment to being my own authority, which lets me feel the compassion I knew I was capable of feeling. So, I am not angry that I am doubting. I am taking it slowly, though, because I am still not sure that because Peny was a tragedy of lies and deceit, Lazaris necessarily is.

You say there are many out there like me, many who are questioning. I am sure you are right. I hope that they feel courageous enough to just let themselves take the time they need. I am okay with questions. the answers will come. You, Katie, know in your heart Lazaris is a fake. I don't know that, but I am not living my life anymore in a manner that is dependent on the Lazaris information.

So, I can live in the open question, for now. I hope others who are not sure will let themselves ask the deeper questions, even if they come to far different conclusions than you and Ted. If Lazaris is real, isn't that what he would encourage?

I have to go, but thanks for sharing your story. It is similar to my own experience and makes me think some more.

Excellent post. I don't have much time tonight...a couple thoughts:

You said: This is one of the reasons I can see how Lazaris is a hindrance to spirituality rather than a help. It has not been easy at times for me over these last months when I realize that maybe the way I came to view the world for the last x amount of years is false. It terrifies me sometimes to realize that maybe I am without any frame of reference. That what I have been doing for all this time is now not true. I managed well enough, but what about the future? What will get me through?

I am now going through a process of post-discernment where I am questioning any of the views that have come via Lazaris. Without consciously realizing it, I had indeed rejected a lot of the Lazaris material while I was still "in the fold". I did this rejection not so much by saying "No, Lazaris, I don't agree with that", but instead by not having that material become part of my active view (kind of like forgetting).

I now view any of the Lazaris material with the same suspicion as I would if I were reading "Spirituality for Dummies" by Jach Pursel. I think the real crime for me was how I was willing (at least consciously) to drop my usual discernment. There were a multitude of reasons:
* The love I felt for Lazaris.
* How I was touched by the material, including its depth and breadth.
* The positive changes that happened to me and my life.
* Never having seen the negativity (Peny/Forum issues).
* Never having seen any obvious lies from Lazaris.

The above early impressions allowed me to then accept as fact how Lazaris explained that he was an objective channel and therefore not subject to the influence of Jach's subconscious.

I am currently re-listening to the "Power of Dominion" tape with my blinders now taken off. This is a very interesting exercise. I will write a post about it later in which I challenge some of the information.

As to your question "what will get me through?", I would suggest it is your own spirituality and your own knowing, both of which may become more free to express themselves and to grow by no longer having to have everything be constrained within the Lazaris "set".

For my own involvement, I view Lazaris as a rocket booster. It served its purpose to get me off the ground, countering the tremendous forces of my previous views. But after a while, that booster must be jetisoned in order to go higher. While it did work for me, I was under the impression that the rocket was of the high quality we expect from NASA. Now, I find out it is was made by Russians. While it worked and
got me where I wanted, had I known I was using a Russian rocket, I would have opted for some alternative, thank you very much.

You said: Now, since my questions have taken hold, I have noticed that my HS has lit out. I don't feel deserted and all alone, but I am not able to get in touch with her the same way anymore.

I would bet that after a certain period of questioning and subsequent strengthening, you re-establish an even more meaningful relationship with your HS or perhaps something no longer constrained by Lazaris's definitions. You had a relationship before Lazaris. You had a relationship during Lazaris. Wouldn't you place odds that you will have a relationship after Lazaris (if you indeed decide to "drop" Lazaris)?

Time to run...

Cheers, Craig

This thread should be moved, absolutely. It's just too important.

Maybe someone could cut and paste the relevant posts under a new topic?

Ted and I are in the midst of a project which will be holding most of our attention for the next few days.

I wrote a long response and damned if it didn't disappear! I'll never learn to post in my word processor first!

Anyway, it seems that every time I come up with a solution to the dilemmas of the universe, or start channelling the Goddess, my posts just disappear. I guess the energy is just too intense for the internet!

Seriously, I'm frustrated, because this conversation is really important to me.

I'll get back to it when time allows.

I really hope this keeps going, I think it's the "real" and important stuff we need to be pondering and discussing.

The sharing here is awesome, and it means a lot to me.

You wrote:

"Thank you, flo, I don't know that my experiences have been any worse than anyone else's. I think most people have had traumas throughout life. Each of our experiences is relative to the individual."

Yes (and I hope you know that I didn't mean to imply any kind of "poor wounded bird" status to you--the opposite, in fact.)

You wrote:

"I think I was lucky in a way to have had my communication before I was steeped too far into any dogma. The Catholic church, for all it's power never succeeded in keeping a hold on me. I always had my "little secret", that had nothing to do with Jesus or all his Saints, Popes, Priests and Nuns."

Your experiences with Catholicism as a child are similar to mine--the magic of an empty church and the felt presence of something larger, needing no roman-collared go between.

I'm sorry that connection was usurped by EFKAL--the only reason I escaped that particular fate was, ironically, due to my earlier experiences in the Church.

When I first got wind of the MLM info, I was discussing it with someone very dear to me (also raised Catholic) and we realized that we'd managed to avoid some of the most painful elements of Con Syn/Lazaris because we'd learned early on not to ever again completely trust an authority figure. (A lingering spiritual suspicion wasn't quite what Father What a Waste had in mind for me, but pass the holy wine and say a prayer anyway, padre.) It pissed me off no end to realize that there had been one lesson of value amidst all the guilt, palm fronds and Friday night confessions--I suppose in fifteen years I'll find another similar gem in this pile of crap.

You wrote:

"Geez flo, you got me on a roll here!!! I hope I haven't overfilled your mug with my thin beer!"

Hardly--our panel rates Katie's Home Brew as possessing a rich, deep color, complex flavors and a fine head.

flo
really wants some beer nuts now

You wrote:

"I know some pretty spiritual people who never heard of Lazaris before. He has said on several occasions that we as mapmakers "know more about spirituality than anyone else on the planet." That always weirded me out."

Me too (that and "Dream Weavers"--sounds more like an eighties hit written by a Journeyesque hair band than any spiritual act I'd care to experience.)

I can't remember which tape it's on, but on it Lazaris does a riff praising the spirituality of people who've never heard of him; people without techniques, meditations, metaphysical jargon or any knowledge whatsoever of the New Age who are far more evolved than those who are workshopping their way home--they "get it", he said, because they love (so much for cartography 101.)

He also makes a reference to this idea in one of the books,iirc (discussing the farmers who responded with aid out of compassion and concern--and not requiring any technique or metaphysical understanding to do so.)

This is one of the disturbing shifts in the material that I began to distrust--from a "many roads home" mentality to suddenly creating mapmakers, implicitly in charge of the future (and if the likes of Peny and co. are in charge of our planetary destiny, it's all over but the crying.)

flo

In the lovely illumation of hindsight, I see this map maker B.S. as another area where I let what didn't compute slide.

Jade