There were some very interesting points that Lazaris raised:

Paraphrasing (for legal reasons) a paragraph on p47, Lazaris states that some entities are tricksters. He states how they come through offering some wonderful initial insights. One gets hooked to the entity. Then the entity starts screwing up your life.

Look at the life of Peny. Look at the degradation of the material of late (Orion, etc). Sounds pretty familiar to me.

In the last paragraph on p41, when discussing "Channeling & Discernment", he asks us to question whether the channeled material is applicable and useful or whether it is useless "mind-babble". He states that while it is curious and interesting to talk about ancient civilizations such as Lemuria and Atlantis, we must ask how this is going to help me become more of who am.

I have attended a number of intensives on such topics: Lemuria, Atlantis, and Sirius. I fortunately have missed the newer ones.

He warns in the prior paragraph about teachings that give you a sense of being less than who you are.

Oh, the hours and hours spent on the negative ego. What a marvelous club (as in "instrument of hurt") that turned out to be! How often have we hurt another by claiming they are in negative ego? How the hell can you respond to such a statement? Like the statement "you are being defensive", the only response that will shut the questioner up is "you're right". How often have we hurt ourselves claiming we are in negative ego? I think this is one of the most destructive teachings of Lazaris. While I think there are some valid concepts, I think it has turned into nothing more than a twisted, brutal tool.

Later on p42, he gives further guidelines relating to the discernment of channeled material. One of them is whether the material is consistent.

There have been many inconsistencies pointed out on this site.

On p57, he states how some say "meditation is meditation is meditation" and that it doesn't matter. He states that the method of meditation does matter.

Sounds like he is forewarning about the difference between meditation and hypnosis that others have speculated about on this site. Personally, I have never understood the distinction that Lazaris makes between the two. On a couple of times during the longer workshops, he has taken us into hypnotic trance. He dwelt at length about how what he was about to take us on was hypnosis and how important it is for us to know this. For the life of me, I couldn't discern the difference between those sessions compared to the traditional Lazaris "meditations". I also think the "red label meditation" series are blatant hypnotic sessions.

Also on p57, he talks about people wanting the channeling to be a panacea. He talks about them saying they have found someone from other levels who is giving them all of the answers and will make their life work. He talks about them saying that they feel all they have to do is listen to all of the wisdom and have faith in it.

Sound familiar to anyone?

Oh, Lazaris, you little trickster! You even warned us. God, you are good!

While re-reading, I also came accross something relevant in LAZARIS - The Sacred Journey: You and Your Higher Self (Concept: Synergy Publication - 1987).

On page "i" of the introduction in the last paragraph, Jach talks about how Peny dragged him to a course in meditation.

There has been discussion on this site about why Jach did not mention that he attended the Silva Mind Control course before channeling Lazaris. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that this is what he is referring to in the above reference paragraph. Why did not he not show the respect of mentioning the producers of the course? Is this reference to Silva or to something else? What I do not appreciate is the overall impression given in this introduction and elsewhere that he was a metaphysical ignoramus. How could one hang around Peny for any length of time and not pick up on at least some metaphysical concepts?

Food for thought.

Thanks for a very interesting post. I think it's interesting that you note Lazaris engaging the same tactics and behaviors he decries. I noticed the same thing on that creepy Roy Masters site, where he goes into a whole diatribe about the dangers of hypnosis and hypnotic suggestion, and then proceeds to use every form of hypnotic suggestion and technique known to man, up to an including taped "meditations".

I guess this is why we call these types "Confidence Men". They know to first gain your confidence, then have their way with your mind and checkbook.

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Paraphrasing (for legal reasons) a paragraph on p47, Lazaris states that some entities are tricksters. He states how they come through offering some wonderful initial insights. One gets hooked to the entity. Then the entity starts screwing up your life.

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Thanks for taking the time to read this material. I have little stomach for it, but it's important to go back with a clear mind and review the info that we have been accepting for years. I appreciate you taking the time to share your observations.

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Look at the life of Peny. Look at the degradation of the material of late (Orion, etc). Sounds pretty familiar to me.

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Yes, it sure does!

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In the last paragraph on p41, when discussing "Channeling & Discernment", he asks us to question whether the channeled material is applicable and useful or whether it is useless "mind-babble". He states that while it is curious and interesting to talk about ancient civilizations such as Lemuria and Atlantis, we must ask how this is going to help me become more of who am.

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This is just amazing. It seems that this was written before Jach realized how popular this material would become, and also what great "filler" it makes, because it's all unverifiable.

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He warns in the prior paragraph about teachings that give you a sense of being less than who you are.

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To me, this is Jach's hubris coming through. IMO he really believes that he's found some magic formulas, and can't see the destruction in his own techniques. He's too busy pointing fingers at others. We've seen that same mentality with some of our fav posters here, who think they have their own magical formulas for "helping" people. Helping themselves to people's cash is more like it. Too bad these bastards don't just admit to themselves what their goals are instead of working themselves up into ego frenzys about how cool and wonderful they are. None of this is about helping anyone, it's about getting rich and achieving power and status OVER other people.

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Oh, the hours and hours spent on the negative ego. What a marvelous club (as in "instrument of hurt") that turned out to be! How often have we hurt another by claiming they are in negative ego? How the hell can you respond to such a statement?

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My response to that statement is "I don't grant you the ability, right, or license to make judgements like that."

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Like the statement "you are being defensive", the only response that will shut the questioner up is "you're right". How often have we hurt ourselves claiming we are in negative ego? I think this is one of the most destructive teachings of Lazaris. While I think there are some valid concepts, I think it has turned into nothing more than a twisted, brutal tool.

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This is one of the worst aspects of the L material, I totally agree. Not only do we sit in constant negative judgement of ourselves, but we do it to everyone around us too. It's hurtful and it destroys relationships. It's just happened to me very recently, in fact, and I consider it to be a tragedy. It's brutal on both ends of the equation, both the judge and the person being judged are hurt equally. It's just hurtful, alienating mumbo jumbo that means absolutely nothing and resolves nothing. As it's been used to judge me, this "negative-ego" concept has served only to shut down communication, and avoid discussing the actual issues. It's like saying to someone "you need to change and fast, because the way you ARE is hurting me."

We see this time and again on this site, the inability of those invested in these L concepts to speak in specifics. All we constantly hear are vague commentaries, but when pressed to delve deeper the judgers leave in a huff, or introduce some diversion, like assigning motives. Maybe this is one more indication of the dangers of the materials. They do seem to have the effect of stopping any deep thought or evaluative skills.

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There have been many inconsistencies pointed out on this site.

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Oh yes, and that's one of my frustrations about my own involvement. I literally piled those inconsistancies in some dark locked closet in my mind through the years. Once the door was opened though, out they came, and there are many of them.

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On p57, he states how some say "meditation is meditation is meditation" and that it doesn't matter. He states that the method of meditation does matter.

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I have long known that what Jachzaris refers to as meditations are not. One cannot be guided into a meditation, true meditation requires a complete calming of the mind and blocking out of stimuli. The purpose is to listen to one's "inner voice", not some lisping fake accent telling us what to visualize, and what issues to work on. That concept runs completely counter to true meditation.

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Personally, I have never understood the distinction that Lazaris makes between the two. On a couple of times during the longer workshops, he has taken us into hypnotic trance. He dwelt at length about how what he was about to take us on was hypnosis and how important it is for us to know this. For the life of me, I couldn't discern the difference between those sessions compared to the traditional Lazaris "meditations". I also think the "red label meditation" series are blatant hypnotic sessions.

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The L meditations are clearly hypnosis sessions, we have verified that with professional hypnotists, even our favorite L hypnotist apologist agrees that they are.

IMO it is just more razzle dazzle diversionary tactics on Jach's part to occassionally introduce "hypnosis" as a separate technique from the other meditations. It is also a strong indication to me of the deliberate fraud that is being perpetrated.

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Also on p57, he talks about people wanting the channeling to be a panacea. He talks about them saying they have found someone from other levels who is giving them all of the answers and will make their life work. He talks about them saying that they feel all they have to do is listen to all of the wisdom and have faith in it.

Sound familiar to anyone?

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Yes, it sounds like more of the same denial tactic. Just say you aren't doing something, and then go right ahead and do it. It seems to be a common deception practice. Have you ever noticed how people who tell you how honest they are never are?

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Oh, Lazaris, you little trickster! You even warned us. God, you are good!

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Yeah, he's good, but as you know, I'm not blaming Lazaris. I'm blaming Jach, because I believe it's fully and completely him pulling this scam. I don't grant him the excuse of some unverifiable entity. He is fully and completely aware of everything that is going on amongst followers, all the misery, angst, wheel spinning, and mindlessness. Even if there is an entity, Jach is still responsible for what comes out of his mouth.

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There has been discussion on this site about why Jach did not mention that he attended the Silva Mind Control course before channeling Lazaris. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that this is what he is referring to in the above reference paragraph. Why did not he not show the respect of mentioning the producers of the course? Is this reference to Silva or to something else?

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Who knows what it's referring to? It's clear that Jach doesn't want to mention his Silva training because he's lifted techniques from Silva, like the counting down, abundance symbol, and the glass of water technique.

There is no reason I can think of for Silva not being mentioned, or the specifics any other meditation classes that Jach took, including why they didn't work for Jach, as he claims.

My theory is that once Jach and Peny had completed the Silva course, Jach got the idea about how to turn it into a money making business. Silva's idea is to spread the information as inexpensively and efficiently as possible, because part of belief system is that by helping to heal others we also heal ourselves. I think Jach took that to mean that he should heal his checkbook and give Peny star status in the process.

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What I do not appreciate is the overall impression given in this introduction and elsewhere that he was a metaphysical ignoramus. How could one hang around Peny for any length of time and not pick up on at least some metaphysical concepts?

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Exactly. It is clear that Peny was deeply interested in metaphysics, particularly the Mme. Blavatsky information most of her life. Since Jach and Peny were a team since high school, it begs common sense to believe that Jach had no interest, or that nothing had been shared with him. Mme. Blavatsky, btw, is the person responsible for introducing this concept of channelling disembodied beings. This after she was embarrassed by the appearance of her alive and well Aunt who she had been claiming to channel for years. You gotta admire the woman's chutzpah, she sure didn't allow any little glaring factoids to stop her. She just moved on and improved her b.s. line.

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Food for thought.

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Indeed so.

Here is a link to a Silva site which explains the "Glass of Water Technique", speaking of familiarity.

http://www.lifepower.com/lifeTools/glassOfWater/glassOfWater.html

I really appreciate the time you're taking to dig into this dilemma of ours, Craig.

I realize we're doing a lot of speculating here, but it's good to base it on as many facts as possible.

Maybe it's the safety in numbers instinct that causes us to join spiritual groups or seek teachers.

Then there is always that sense of superiority, being among the enlightened few who will be saved while the rest of the ignoramouses perish.

It is the same old same old, all wrapped up in purple and sparkling with crystals, set to a Yanni soundtrack.

Nice to see you.

Also, I agree with Katie's point that Jach is responsible for what comes out of his mouth.

I remember in the early days of the Forum someone wrote and asked about MLMs. It was one seriously dead thread as I recall.

Of course, at the time, I had no idea why that would have been a taboo topic.

It's amazing what a difference a little information makes in the way we view things.

I laughed out loud (I know, I say LOL!) when I saw your comment to my message. You're right!

I had a Jewish Western Civ professor once who was a stickler for "critical thinking" who taught that, from his earliest beginnings, man has needed a rationale for things he couldn't control or explain, particularly the seemingly random catastrophes like major floods, earthquakes. The only obvious answer to our crises and such are that unseen being(s) bigger than us cause us sorrow, punishment, etc., causing us to respond with better behavior, better thinking and so on.
Aren't we funny? No matter what, we still are doing it.

By the way, your comments on Silva caused me to remember that I went to the courses and used the techniques in the mid-70s and I've always known that Lazaris guided meditations were a form of self-hypnosis. Because of their comforting effects, however, I wasn't offended. However, I don't remember the Silva material being spiritual at all.

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I had a Jewish Western Civ professor once who was a stickler for "critical thinking" who taught that, from his earliest beginnings, man has needed a rationale for things he couldn't control or explain,

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You know, I've heard that theory before, and of course it does make a certain amount of sense, but it is also often used to explain away spiritual experiences as just wishful thinking, or the result of a need to, as you say, rationalize our existance.

I'm not sure I completely agree, especially given the history of human spirituality as presented to us by scholars and researchers like Joseph Campbell. There is a thread of experience that is clearly demonstrable, most religions or spiritual belief systems are not soley based on intellectual or rational process, but very strongly rooted in what seems to me to be a universal awareness that can be shown to have existed in humanity throughout recorded history.

So, I don't know that all spirituality or religious belief can be written of as a process of rationalizing, although I do very much see the power of the human mind to do just that.

I'm hoping that my inner life is based on more than essentially wishful thinking, and a need to provide myself with a pleasant and hopeful explanation for life's mysteries.

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The only obvious answer to our crises and such are that unseen being(s) bigger than us cause us sorrow, punishment, etc., causing us to respond with better behavior, better thinking and so on.

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That does seem to be the answer that many people adopt, and I see that very much as stemming from a fear based approach, or especially one of hopelessness or irresponsibility. I know many fundamentalists who operate from just such a limited understanding of how the universe works, but even the Bible allows that humanity is made in the image of "God" and that we have free will.

I've always bristled at this thinking that there is some "Godman" in heaven looking down and meting out punishments or granting favors based on some inconceivable system of justice. I know some take comfort in the thought, but it scares the bejeesus out of me, and certainly does not conform to my experience.

Spirituality to me is about observing, being conscious, developing awareness of myself. I think that looking outside to find our answers or approaching life through a purely intellectual process really runs counter to the concept of spirituality.

I'm having a million interruptions as I'm writing this, but I think I'm having a realization here about the problems with the L material, and why following it has been such a futile and frustrating process. I'm beginning to see exactly why it is NOT spiritual, just as a lot of essentially superstitious beliefs also are not, and why that leaves the door open for scientific minds to write off spirituality as stemming from a human need to provide rational explanations for circumstances and events that are too big for our minds to really wrap themselves around.

Thanks for your observations, they've opened some doors for me in understanding the L frustration.

In a nutshell, I think it's more superstition than spirituality, as I'm beginning to believe is any belief system that advocates reliance on "higher wisdoms".

Spirituality is about individual experience and relationship, not about groovy belief systems which satisfy our minds, but not our souls.

Katie

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I had a Jewish Western Civ professor once who was a stickler for "critical thinking" who taught that, from his earliest beginnings, man has needed a rationale for things he couldn't control or explain,
particularly the seemingly random catastrophes like major floods, earthquakes.

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I prefer the idea that early humans felt themselves to be so connected to, and so much a part of nature that floods, earthquakes, etc. were attributed to nature spirits -- just as were rainbows, the tides and spring rains.
I think that the need for a rationale came later, after human consciousness stopped seeing itself as part of nature.

Here in Seattle we have the most magnificent mountain/volcano for all to see on a clear day. The local natives saw it as a Being and called it Tehoma (the mountain). Then white settlers named it Mt. Rainer, after the man who "discovered" it. To them it was a spiritless thing, so they slapped a guy's name on it as if he has some proprietary claim for seeing it.

IMO this kind of alienation from nature has humanity looking for control and explanations. Animals get a sense of an impending earthquake or volcanic eruption. I think we can too (probably more accurately than all our technology) if we tune back into our earthly source.

Hope you are getting the hang of the technology on the site. When you are ready for icons, a persistent search on "animations" (preferably free, and try the urls of those on the posts) will lead the way to fun and frivolous iconatry.

Jade

Thanks for your thoughts which I don't disagree with. I think I was making some oblique comment on the betrayal we all feel by Con:Sin which I still don't have resolved for myself.

Thanks for the tip on animations. I actually got the idea to search for icons! Duh. Found some, now have to practice putting them in my posts! Then... we can have fun because this just gives me a tickle.
Thanks again.

Here's a poem I would like to share, even though I am still in resitance of the idea of the need for a guru or teacher, I am still in love with Paramahansa Yogananda, who I believe to be one of the most gentle, honest,beautiful, loving, and spiritual people to have walked this earth.

His poem The Grand Canyon of the Colorado brings tears to my eyes:

Who reigns in this Canyon,
Deep and grand with measureless space--
The sun or moon?
They jealously vie
To drive away with swiftness
The demon of darkness,
And try to wake the sleeping motley splendor
That decorates in glory
The crowded temple-peaks, both young and hoary.

These shrines, though different, yet in unison
Do welcome all to see the One;
E'ev as the temples of Shiva and Rama
In silence worship the one Brahma

Who reigns here?
The One, with different shapes and names,
To inspire
All yes, all minds, all sects, all creeds,
As suites their wide aesthetic needs;
And cause them to bow in awe and reverance
To the Spirit of Vastness that here reigns.

You said: Here's a poem I would like to share, even though I am still in resitance of the idea of the need for a guru or teacher, I am still in love with Paramahansa Yogananda, who I believe to be one of the most gentle, honest,beautiful, loving, and spiritual people to have walked this earth.

I have always had an unwritten rule to evaluate a psychological or spiritual teacher/guru - Is this the type of person I would want to become?

How I blew it with Jach/Peny/C:S!!!! Never having witnessed the C:S forum and never personally seeing much negative about Jach and Peny, combined with the saccharin descriptions of Peny's wonderfulness by Lazaris, I can see how this sneaked by me.

Cheers, Craig

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Originally posted by Jade:

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I have always had an unwritten rule to evaluate a psychological or spiritual teacher/guru - Is this the type of person I would want to become?

How I blew it with Jach/Peny/C:S!!!! Never having witnessed the C:S forum and never personally seeing much negative about Jach and Peny, combined with the saccharin descriptions of Peny's wonderfulness by Lazaris, I can see how this sneaked by me.

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Yes, there is the mistake. We accepted the word of an unseeable, unverifiable entity, and all the self promotion without question.
There is certainly a lesson to be learned here. Next time some Orb comes knocking, I'm gonna ask for references!

Katie

Jade

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Jade -- you fox! You dug up the same "sunset.gif" as on the Lazaris login page!

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Cosmic!!! or Comic. You're catching on fast Susan.