I signed up for the online Wall Street Journal (WSJ) because they have archives available that go back 20 years. Some interesting reading indeed. I can't quote or reprint, but I can relay the gist for noncommercial purposes.

First: No less than ten major newspapers across the country carried the story of the sale of a 27,000 sq.ft. Palm Beach home on the ocean in mid-December 1991. The house had been on the market ever since it was built in 1988, but the Norths snatched it up in three weeks for a cool $9 million. Their old Palm Beach home, only 13,000 sq.ft., was going to go on the market for almost $7 million. One Dick Allison handled the sale. Hmmm...any relation to the other Allison whose first/last name may have been switched over the years? I don't know how big the lot was, but it included a 3-BR guest house, 14-car garage, and a tennis court.

And now Tradevest: I have five non-WSJ articles that discuss Tradevest. The first two, written in January 1986 in the Atlanta Journal, talk about Tradevest and its investment value; the company was formed in October 1985. The last three, written in July/August 1986 in the LA Times and a Baton Rouge publication, discuss a $1 million consumer protection suit against the company, filed exactly 15 years ago today (7/14/86) by the California Attorney General's office. (BTW, the gift theme for a 15-year anniversary is -- ready? -- crystal!)

Tradevest was accused of being a pyramid scheme, of misrepresenting the profits that could be made, of violating numerous consumer protection laws, and at least two lies told to Tradevest members by the promotors:

•  Merrill Lynch managed the trust fund (Lie)

•  Coopers & Lybrand audited the fund to make sure there'd be enough money in 20 years to pay everybody (Lie; a subsequent State of CA analysis said there wouldn't be enough $$ unless 1.5 billion people participated)

A settlement was made August 20, 1986. Tradevest could continue operating but it was to offer refunds to dissatisfied members, pay $60,000 in civil penalties & legal costs, revamp its sales program, and place the funds in protected trust accounts. Tradevest did not admit any wrongdoing (egad--not that).

There were no WSJ search results that covered the demise of Tradevest. Frank Russo says (in What About the Good) that he spent money on Tradevest goods between 4/10/87 and 6/12/87, so the outfit might have lasted only a year after the lawsuit, and apparently with changes, since Steve said (in Tradevest that he invested only $185 + seminars. The January 1986 articles I read said the fee to join was $2000, with $29 annual renewal (and you'd have to spend $100,000/year for 20 years to make up the loss in compound interest had the $2000 been invested in something sensible like an IRA for 20 years). In August 1986, even before the settlement, the articles said the fee to join was $789 + $39 annually.

Oh...and that pool that Michaell last lounged by? All marble, the only thing left from an estate that previously occupied the site.

Susan

Wow, you win the gold medal for research! Thanks so much for providing us with this information. The raw facts are incontrovertible and totally damning.

Nine million dollars for that property, all culled from our honestly earned cash. It's such a disgusting excess, and we aren't even discussing the renovations. I had always thought that this estate was built from the ground up. I remember Peny talking about all the work being done there for months before they moved in. So I wonder what the real cost ended up being.

I don't begrudge anyone the money they EARN from honest work. I consider every "peny" earned by Con:Sin to be theft. Hopefully someday that issue will be decided in a court of law, criminal or civil.

The ugliest part of the story for me is that there is not one shred of evidence anywhere that any of that money served any purpose other than to feed the insatiable Peny's greed and passion for status and power. No wonder the Con:Sinners have adopted this "conservative" perspective on generosity and charity. Oh, I forgot, someone told us that Peny once sent some new baby gifts! And, we can't forget her largesse with her gay boyfriend who she never even met. Surely he was in dire need of all those Tibetan baubles she obsessively ordered up for him. There we have an indication of Peny's true concern for the planet, and responsible use of her bottomless funds, gratefully flung at her feet by her brain washed, mind controlled, guilt tripped, followers.

I have to study this Tradevest information more closely, you are raising some interesting points about the dates. I wonder at what point Con:Sin got involved.

This financial analysis is very revealing. I've found that most MLM promises can be pretty easily analyzed to show the reality of what a participant can actually expect to earn. Amway literature has a tiny small print disclaimer on the bottom of some of their marketing literature which states that the average associate earns 6.50 a month, or some horrendously revealing figure like that. I suppose they have been legally compelled to provide that information.

Now, wouldn't you think the Grand Orb could have provided this spin in the space between two nano-seconds? Assuming of course that there ever was any desire or even private pretense on Con:Sin's part to actually provide anything but cash for their coffers.

Whose interest is that dim bulb serving? It doesn't take a financial analyst to figure that one out. What difference does it make if the glowing entity is real or not? What trustworthy purpose does "it" serve anyone if "it" can't or won't intervene to prevent a scam like Tradevest?

Many thanks for sharing the information you've taken the time and energy to uncover Susan. It's a most valued and important contribution.

Katie

This is the kind of information I have been looking for.

It has been a big help in answering some questions.

Thanks for all the info.

I wonder who got the guest house? Or maybe he got the garage?

Jach got the guest house in Orland. He lived in the garage in Marin.

I guess there wasn't much room to maneuver in the big house once Peny spread out. 27,000 sq feet sounds pretty big, but everything is relative.

Can't say I blame the guy for hiding out in the servant quarters, or that it was inappropriate.

Unfortunately -- too late for the Dramamine here. What a mess --

My stollen $185 was for "training materials" to become a Tradevst Associate.

I never spent a dime in that pubescent yuppie image crack house.

Save people! Invest.

Steve

Thanks for your thanks! And thank you, Katie & Ted, for providing the means to share the information. I'd go nuts if I didn't have anyplace to go with it.

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Katie says:
I have to study this Tradevest information more closely, you are raising some interesting points about the dates. I wonder at what point Con:Sin got involved.

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An excellent question, which I can't answer. (Steve-when did you plunk down your $185 for training materials?) But we're closing in on the dates of operation. It was founded October 1985, and I doubt that it lived to see its second birthday.

I went back and reread the articles I cited in May in the Tradevest Customer vs. Sales Associate thread. I didn't quote from them then, but I think some interesting excerpts deserve a read in-line here. (The links below are the same as what I linked to in May.)

It seems likely that Tradevest shut down no later than August 1987. I say that because John R. Isaacs, president of Tradevest at the time he wrote a Letter to the Editor about the June 1987 MLM article in Money magazine, was named president of Heck's Inc. (a now bankrupt discount store in the East, I think) on August 13, 1987. (This last from a WSJ archive headline.) Interesting that his Letter to the Editor appeared in the August 1987 issue of Money.

Also, former Tradevest exec-type person Larry Andreini bailed four months before the company went bankrupt, and in 1987 he was starting his own new company. Here is the interesting stuff from the 2/1/93 Inc.com article about him (START is the name of his new company) (The italics are mine - a curious sentence):

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from 2/1/93 Inc. article:
After graduating from Notre Dame, in 1984, Andreini went to work for his father at Andreini Insurance. He later moved to a vice-president's position at another insurance company. It was there he met some clients who had an eye-catching concept that allowed people to save and spend at the same time. "What they laid out was the fundamentals of START," says Andreini. Captivated by the idea, he left his job to help the struggling start-up, called Tradevest.

But Andreini soon bumped up against problems. "These guys were so busy selling their idea they neglected the basics of building the business," he explains. Regulations were being skirted. An investor was wresting control of the company from the founders. Nearly three months later Andreini left the company, certain it was doomed. Four months after that, Tradevest filed for bankruptcy. But Andreini couldn't forget the idea. He was convinced of its premise; it just needed some fine-tuning, he reasoned, and he set to work building his vision for START.

In 1987 Andreini, only 25 and newly married, set up shop in the back of a friend's warehouse in Nitro, W. Va. [...to start the new company called START]

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We have another name -- Tradevest founder Jeffrey Cohen (a name much too common to find out whatever happened to him), "who formerly sold life insurance and limited partnerships and helped run a time-share company." (When did Jach stop selling insurance?) The June 1987 Money magazine article mentions Cohen, and this excerpt tells us that California wasn't the only state that had issues with the organization:

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from June 1987 Money magazine:
Tradevest has had several run-ins with regulators. In July, the Washington Department of Licensing issued a temporary cease and desist order against Tradevest because its trust arrangement was considered a sale of unregistered securities. In August, Tradevest signed an agreement with the Oregon Department of Justice never to do business in that state. The company also agreed to a settlement with California enforcement authorities, paying $60,000 in penalties and costs.

Cohen dismisses Tradevest's legal problems: "We are the cleanest network marketing company ever." He has big plans for Tradevest. Today, Cohen says, the company has sales of $7 million with 6,000 customers and 9,000 distributors. He projects sales in 1989 to hit $1.2 billion, with 250,000 customers and 325,000 distributors.

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A far cry from the 1.5 billion customers/distributors/associates/participants the State of CA said would be needed for people to get their money in 20 years.

BTW, the article also says that Tradevest did half-hour commercials on cable TV called "Tradevest Today." Clever, since there was no tomorrow for it.

I question whether anyone really did run off with all the money, or was it just bad management and legal suits that threw the company into bankruptcy. Actually, I don't care, except that it would be one more not-quite-truth dispensed to cover up an NPN greed scheme gone bad (or maybe it wasn't a screw up -- perhaps this was how it was supposed to end!).

Susan

As this is my first post, a brief history:

I have been going to Lazaris seminars since '89. I have attended approximately 6 intensives, 15 weekends, 5 one days, and 20 evenings. I have over 200 of his tape sets. It's amazing how the costs add up. I have probably paid C/S over $15,000, not to mention travel/hotel costs, etc.

While I am on the standing tape list, I have not gone to a seminar in over 5 years. My most intense period of seminar attending was in the '89-'92 timeframe. I have never had a personal reading, although I was a subject of what is now called "magic time" at one of the intensives in '89 (LA Archetypes). I fortunately never subjected myself to the J&L forum and have never personally had any run-ins with the C/S gang. I only saw Peny once at a weekend in Palm Beach in the early 90s.

The Lazaris material was my first main introduction into spirituality. It came at a time in my life when it was decidedly needed (getting divorced and having business problems). Even with the revelations of this site, I still remain grateful for the material, no matter what it's origin. I will always have a warm spot in my heart for Lazaris. If it turns out that Lazaris is a fake, then I am grateful for Jach, who despite his shortcomings, provided me with information and allowed myself to feel a love that I hitherto had not felt.

As time went on, I found that I was getting less and less out of the seminars. I felt that the tapes and seminars were loosing the elegance of the earlier material and were starting to get too "out there" for my tastes. Also, there was so much rehash and re-categorization. I no longer felt drawn to the seminars and would listen to the new tapes half-heartedly once at the gym. Occasionally, some gems would come through that would reconnect me to the early feelings of the material.

During 2001, I have found myself starting to renew my spiritual search outside of the Lazaris material.

I have discovered this forum 2 or 3 days ago, and have done much "soul searching" as a result. I have come to the conclusion that there is just too much information on this site that can't be ignored. I am forced into one of two conclusions:

1) Lazaris is a fake.
2) Jach is not the objective channel that he claims to be. Instead, the material from Lazaris is being filtered through his baggage.

Given the overwhelming amount of information on this site, I am gathering what I consider some of the "best of" quotes that I have found that are important to me. I will probably include these in a future post along with some of my thoughts and feelings. Hopefully this would be helpful to any newbies.

I encourage fellow newbies to consider registering on this forum and let themselves be known. Of course, this should only be done when and if they feel it is safe to do this. I think there is much healing to be gained from this site and the more participation from a wide variety of people, the better. Assuming you feel Lazaris is 100% of what he says he is (I'm sorry, I have trouble saying "they" instead of "him"), then you must know that he would have no problem with you discussing fears and concerns about his validity. He has, after all, acknowledged the feeling of being angry towards God/Goddess/All That Is. If he is who he says he is, he would never, ever drop his love for you.

I would like to express my deepest and heartfelt gratefulness to Katie and Ted for having the courage and love to develop and maintain this site.

I hope to say more in the future, but for now I would like to pose two requests.

1) After a will is probated, it becomes a matter of public record. One can get it by going to the local government (I think at the "record of wills") and paying a small charge for a copy. If there is anyone in close proximity to where Peny and Michael died, I think it would be most interesting to get a copy of the will and see what it says.

2) If there is anyone going to the upcoming July evening and intensive, it would be great if they could report back (or contact someone they know who is on this forum) what was said about the Peny/Micheal deaths. Also, it would be interesting if they detected any change in the presentation or quality of the material being channeled.

Cheers, Craig

Many thanks again for all this great meaty information. It's frustrating though, that it still raises more questions than it answers.

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An investor was wresting control of the company from the founders.

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That is interesting. Too bad the article doesn't go into more detail about who that investor was. It's hard not to wonder if our world-class control wrestler friends weren't the investor in question.

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I question whether anyone really did run off with all the money, or was it just bad management and legal suits that threw the company into bankruptcy. Actually, I don't care, except that it would be one more not-quite-truth dispensed to cover up an NPN greed scheme gone bad (or maybe it wasn't a screw up -- perhaps this was how it was supposed to end!).

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Yes, more questions! I have met with MLM investors who actually told me that it was their plan to take the money and run once the return on investment ratio for their company began to diminish. MLM is a formula, and everyone knows going in that the big money is made in the early days. There comes a point where the payouts and sales create more work and less profit. These folks actually laid it all out to me that it was their plan to bail once their company got to that point. There is no law against it, you see, it's just good business strategy. It is well known that starting an MLM business is a good way for the founders to make quick millions, even if the company fails.

One company I am very familiar with played out the "lawsuit" game as prelude to it's demise. It's interesting to note that no one lost that lawsuit except the hard working people who built the company. The lawsuit very well may have been strategy to allow for the principles to walk away with their profits and provide an excuse for dismantling the company.

Of course, the whole issue with Tradevest is why didn't the Orb see this coming? I mean..REALLY!!!!

If L's investment advise is any indication, it seems a good idea to take everything else he has to say with a huge helping of salt.

Too bad that huge point is somehow so hugely missed by the true blue.

All this serves to show me is that con-men know very well that they will never run out of fervent supporters. The bigger and more artificial the carrot the better. They know no one is ever actually going to get the chance to take a bite out of that dangler.

Katie

I just wrote you a nice long post and it disappeared into the ethers, so I suppose
I've gotten the message to say less.

Welcome! And thank you for your comments and willingness to participate.

I really appreciate your openess, and you are most welcome for this site. Ted and I can't take all or even most of the credit, it is the participation of everyone who has come here with caring and compassion who are responsible for what is good here.

I'm looking forward to your "Best of" list! That is a true labor of love, and will be most interesting to read.

I was present during your "Magic Time" in 89. If you feel like talking about that, I'd be up for it too. It's amazing to me that you've turned up, because that particular exchange with Lazaris has stuck with me over the years.

Talk to you soon,

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It's amazing how the costs add up. I have probably paid C/S over $15,000, not to mention travel/hotel costs, etc.

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The Lazaris material was my first main introduction into spirituality. It came at a time in my life when it was decidedly needed (getting divorced and having business problems). Even with the revelations of this site, I still remain grateful for the material, no matter what it's origin. I will always have a warm spot in my heart for Lazaris. If it turns out that Lazaris is a fake, then I am grateful for Jach, who despite his shortcomings, provided me with information and allowed myself to feel a love that I hitherto had not felt.

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My interest in "Lazaris" started ten years after becoming involved with spiritual growth. I was attracted because much of the initial material was in sync with beliefs I already had. As discussed at length on other threads here, we often let in loveas "Lazaris." Easy to confuse the two considering the amount of cult "love bombing" that we were exposed to over the years.

When "Lazaris" is first ground for seeking to grow, questioning the legitimacy of the Orb can cast the whole arena of spirituality into doubt. And separating out what is valuable, and what isn't can be more difficult because "Lazaris" gets credited as the source of information. Since you are exploring other avenues these days, that effect is probably being diffused.

Like the side effects of synthetic expensive pharmeceutical drugs, there are serious side effects -- the costliness, the deceit (including self deceit), dependency, and a very cluttered consciousness that is actually diverted and impeded in it's quest for self awareness.

I expect Jach is glad to have your gratitude and your money. But IMO the bottom line is that he is doing this gig for his own gain, not your growth. Maybe being grateful to yourself for eposing yourself to the information that is of use and value is enough.

Looking forward to hearing from you again.


Jade

Katie said: I just wrote you a nice long post and it disappeared into the ethers...

A suggestion: before submiting, put the entry into the clipboard in case things go bad. A simple keyboard shortcut is to press control-a (select all text) followed by control-c (copy to clipboard).

Katie said: Ted and I can't take all or even most of the credit, it is the participation of everyone who has come here with caring and compassion who are responsible for what is good here.

Great point. I extend my gratitude to all who have posted.

Katie said: I was present during your "Magic Time" in 89. If you feel like talking about that, I'd be up for it too. It's amazing to me that you've turned up, because that particular exchange with Lazaris has stuck with me over the years.

As far as how I got here, I was doing a search on a new search engine using "Lazaris" as the keyword. I wasn't doing this because I wanted information on Lazaris. I just was putting the search engine through its paces. Your website jumped out at me. I have since entered "Lazaris" in google and was happy to see your website as the second one listed after Lazaris.com. Google constructs the order they present things by the number of other websites that have links to that particular site.

I'm curious how many people would have chosen to continue with Lazaris if such information was available when they first started "following" Lazaris. I know I never would have.

As far as my "Magic Time", I would like to talk about it, but I will probably do that under a different topic. I'm not quite ready to do that yet, though.

Jade said: I never added up my C:S costs, but mine and I believe several other regular posters would are in a similar $$$ range.

Let's not forget how much time we have also invested. This IMO is much more valuable than the $$$. I think the material AS PRESENTED is presented in such a way as to generate long term dependence. If one were setting up a business of channelling and had no regard for people's souls, this would make perfect business sense.

I know others have mentioned Silva Mind Control as one of the sources of the Lazaris material as Jach (and I'm sure Peny) have studied it. It is interesting to note that Jose Silva never asked for any money for his service (I'm sure this has changed now that he is dead). I liken the tactics of Concept:Synergy more to Tony Robbins. I'm sure Tony also has a lot of good things to say. At least with his infomercials, it's clear that making money is one of his primary concerns. Contrast this to C/S where this motivation is hidden.

Jade said: When "Lazaris" is first ground for seeking to grow, questioning the legitimacy of the Orb can cast the whole arena of spirituality into doubt. And separating out what is valuable, and what isn't can be more difficult because "Lazaris" gets credited as the source of information. Since you are exploring other avenues these days, that effect is probably being diffused.

I was also fortunate to have other periods of spiritual search (in the 1990s) to reinforce my spiritual base. Without that base plus the renewed interest this year, I think I would be absolutely devastated. As it turns out, I found out the information at a great time. I can certainly empathize with others who were not so lucky.

Jade said: I expect Jach is glad to have your gratitude and your money. But IMO the bottom line is that he is doing this gig for his own gain, not your growth. Maybe being grateful to yourself for eposing yourself to the information that is of use and value is enough.

I suspect you are correct about Jach's motivation. Even if that is the case, I am still grateful because of the end results that I allowed. I can not say for sure what path I would have taken if he wasn't there at the time. For me, it was the right message at the right time. Perhaps, I would have stumbled upon other information. I now know there is a plethora of wonderful information out there, but I can conceive of the possibility of not being "grabbed" by any of it at the time because of where I was. And yes, more than the gratitude I feel for Jach, is the gratitude I feel for myself to allow such or similar information to be integrated into my being.

While there is no doubt that I have been hurt, I think my pain dwarfs in comparison to what some of you must have experienced given what I have read here about your experiences. I consider myself lucky in this area.

Cheers, Craig

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Steve -- when did you plunk down your $185 training materials?

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October 1986 - August 1987. Nickel and dimed along the way -- I got out my old checkbook registers to look.

What a sick mess.

Steve

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A suggestion: before submiting, put the entry into the clipboard in case things go bad. A simple keyboard shortcut is to press control-a (select all text) followed by control-c (copy to clipboard).

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Yeah, thanks, I do know better. I guess I'm just one big risk taker and can't resist taking my chances when I hit that "submit" button!

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I extend my gratitude to all who have posted.

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Me too!

It is cool how well we do on the search engines! I wasn't aware of how Google works, that's interesting.

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I'm curious how many people would have chosen to continue with Lazaris if such information was available when they first started "following" Lazaris. I know I never would have.

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I wouldn't have either, but I'm sure the followers would still have flocked in. Sai Baba manages to keep a large influx of "denyers" inspite of all the horrendous information available about him. There is something really scary about the mindset of the "true believer". How many spouses do you know of who just keep hanging in there regardless of how terribly they are treated and repeatedly abused and betrayed? Those worlds "I love you" have a great amount of power it would seem. So does the thought of being among an elite group of specially connected "magicians". I believe that sense of specialness is a big big draw.

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As far as my "Magic Time", I would like to talk about it, but I will probably do that under a different topic. I'm not quite ready to do that yet, though.

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No pressure! If and when you're ready I'll be glad to share my recollections and thoughts as well.

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Let's not forget how much time we have also invested. This IMO is much more valuable than the $$$.

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For me it isn't even the time or the money, it's the bad decisions I made, and the way I changed the way I viewed my relationships and strategized my life. That is the biggest source of regret, anger, and frustration I have. I stopped using my good sense and defaulted instead to a bunch of ridiculous beliefs and techniques.

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I think the material AS PRESENTED is presented in such a way as to generate long term dependence. If one were setting up a business of channelling and had no regard for people's souls, this would make perfect business sense.

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Of course! When we accept this belief that there is a formula which can be learned and implemented to provide us with successes and manifestations beyond our wildest dreams, we sure as hell aren't going to stop trying until we get that formula right. That's the dependency, the promises, and the frustration is the belief that the only reason we aren't succeeding as promised is because of something wrong with us.

But, the material has gotten so phenomenally ridiculous, I think I would be shedding it by now even without all the revelations, scandals, and horrendous behavior. I can't fathom that I would be hinging my life on some Arthurian Legend BS. I simply cannot believe that anyone is taking that crap seriously. I mean, it's all well and good to hear the story from someone who allegedly knows the facts of this completely historically unverifiable myth, but to base my life on it's significance? I don't think so. I think it's all incredibly pathetic and childish.

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I know others have mentioned Silva Mind Control as one of the sources of the Lazaris material as Jach (and I'm sure Peny) have studied it. It is interesting to note that Jose Silva never asked for any money for his service (I'm sure this has changed now that he is dead).

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I think you can buy a Silva course for something like $30. Quite a difference. Silva had very altruistic goals. His thought was to train teachers who in turn would train other teachers. The idea is to get the information and techniques out to the world as efficiently as possible, not make Silva or his organization rich and powerful.

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I liken the tactics of Concept:Synergy more to Tony Robbins. I'm sure Tony also has a lot of good things to say. At least with his infomercials, it's clear that making money is one of his primary concerns. Contrast this to C/S where this motivation is hidden.

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Right, Tony makes no bones about making money, and he doesn't presume to set himself up as an absolute spiritual authority. Con:Sin acts as though all the money is the result of great magical powers on their part.
You know of course, that Peny was so rich because of her mastery of the techniques, not because of her endless scheming to extract money from the followers.

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I was also fortunate to have other periods of spiritual search (in the 1990s) to reinforce my spiritual base. Without that base plus the renewed interest this year, I think I would be absolutely devastated. As it turns out, I found out the information at a great time. I can certainly empathize with others who were not so lucky.

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You know, I think it comes down to sincerity rather than luck Craig. Every Lazarian I have met has been anxious to discuss the questions and doubts which have come up for them over the years. I think for a long time we were all looking for reinforcement from each other, and giving and receiving it.
But, after awhile, one by one, those of us who are sincere in our spiritual quest, not just willing to settle, have had to admit that all is not well.

It's a matter of information. Until recently very few of us had any birdseye view of the realities of that group. Sincere people will have to admit at some point that something is rotten in Denmark, and I also believe that seriously spiritual people cannot allow ourselves to settle for so many inconsistancies, unanswered questions, evidence and facts which illustrate a less than impeccable source.

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While there is no doubt that I have been hurt, I think my pain dwarfs in comparison to what some of you must have experienced given what I have read here about your experiences. I consider myself lucky in this area.

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Hmm...well, maybe those of us who had head-ons are the lucky ones. It's certainly shocking and painful to have ones illusions brutally shattered, but I think it just might be better to get it all over at once.
Our trust was shattered quickly. I suspect that for others, the slower process might be just as painful, if not more so. I do believe that those who get to the point of realizing that all is not well might just go through a more drawn out process. I'm not sure, I think it's different for each of us, and that we all allow things in at our own pace and comfort level. It's interesting to me that Ted, Jade, Steve,Audrey and me, who all had head on's in the Forum or other direct interactions, are probably the most clear in our perpective. Not that we are more RIGHT, just more clear in that we are all pretty much resolved on the issue of Lazaris' existance, etc. Maybe we're all the types who prefer our medicine in one big dose. Aud didn't have a head-on per se, but she had her own bucket of cold water experience when she was denied re-entry to the Forum, because she didn't "feel right" to some unnamed judge.

I'm not here trying to compare pain levels or anything, but just noting that resolution on the key issues has come to some of us relatively quickly, while some are still pondering them, and trying to piece the inconsistancies together. Again, that is not to say that we have the answers for others, but we do have them for ourselves, which to me is quite a relief. I don't personally feel anymore abused than anyone else. I think everyone is being abused and hurt, simply because I believe we've all been invested in a very destructive belief system.

As to gratitude for Jach....I hope you'll excuse me for admitting that the thought turns my stomach, but then, I've had more direct interaction with him. I don't believe that man is worthy of anything better than contempt, and even that is too good for him. That of course, is my personal opinion, which I trust you will grant indulgence for my compulsion to express it.

Gotta run, nice chatting.

Katie

1. Jach moves out.

2. Smudge the place with 10,000 sage sticks and 5,000 aromatic candles for 10 full cycles of the moon.

3. Resident humongous (and smaller) crystals should be submerged in the Atlantic for a century of cleansing .

4. It should be remodeled into a private resort.

5. And handed over to the people who paid for it.

6. We'll call it Fools' Paradise, PB.

Here's something to perk up the pool.

Sounds like we have the start of a "top ten" list!

I hope to God Michaell's abandoned daughter gets taken care of in this mess in the only way (materially) that seems to matter to the folks at C/S.

You continue to amaze us all with your iconatry (new word)!

I love THAT..Fools Paradise!!!!! Yeah, but sumthin'makes me think the one who'd be gittin' any of the spoils of this charade is the good ole "W"s bro'... good ole JEB!

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Steve: October 1986 - August 1987. Nickel and dimed along the way -- I got out my old checkbook registers to look.

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Thanks for digging out those records, Steve!  It seems 1987 is the date to start hunting for bankrupcy records, and if we ever unearth those, I would not expect to find NPN named in anything, except it's pretty fishy that they changed their names sometime between the publication of the Higher Self book (1987) and the Interview books (1988).  However, if the Prestinis changed their name because of Tradevest, why didn't Jach also?

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Katie: I think it just might be better to get it all over at once. Our trust was shattered quickly. I suspect that for others, the slower process might be just as painful, if not more so. I do believe that those who get to the point of realizing that all is not well might just go through a more drawn out process. I'm not sure, I think it's different for each of us, and that we all allow things in at our own pace and comfort level. It's interesting to me that Ted, Jade, Steve,Audrey and me, who all had head on's in the Forum or other direct interactions, are probably the most clear in our perpective.

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For me, I'm fascinated with the whole thing, except for you and the other "victims" who endured the cruelty.  The possibility that the concept of Concept:Synergy was all a sham from the beginning, and if so, how it was/is pulled off.  The inconsistencies never being addressed.  The twisting of any honest, challenging question into negative ego.  The pomposity and arrogance.  The choice of ignoring what's going on by the One who says they're here to help us, love us forever (and a day), and be friends.  The One's encouragement to invest in a borderline-illegal scheme that chisled even more $$ out of believers.  The ultimate failure of the most perfect and wonderful woman in the world to consciously create her own goal of a long life (altho for all we know she may have achieved her goal of menstruating throughout the rest of it).  And dishing us up a bozo president and leaving the rest of us to suffer the embarassment of him.

All these things and the hundreds more described on this site are making me re-examine just about everything I thought before.  It's like playing pick-up sticks.  Not all the sticks were picked up before Peny's death, but upon her death, all the sticks got dumped on the floor again. And since one of the required objectives in life (according to the gold stick) is to have fun, and I love games and detective stories, I'm magnetized to the affair.

My heart goes out to all who were injured. Cruelty is not forgivable in my book when the perpetrator doesn't take responsibility for it and worse, continues the behavior.

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The ultimate failure of the most perfect and wonderful woman in the world to consciously create her own goal of a long life (altho for all we know she may have achieved her goal of menstruating throughout the rest of it).

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I wondered about Peny's plan to avoid menopause. Even the Orb described the importance of life passages, especially the spiritual growth and focus occurring after reproductive functions cease. So Peny's wish to keep her female hormones pumping full blast indefinitely was essentially contradictory to moving on into wisdom. All that Goddess talk, yet Peny chose to subvert nature and avoid becoming a Crone.

Anyway, as I understand it, women still have plenty of female hormones after menopause (about 65% of previous levels). They are reduced just enough to eliminate the ability to conceive.

How about turning the white elephant into a recovery center for former cult members, who could dive and breech in the newly anointed Pool of Freedom? (Of course first the former Pool of Pee must be drained, disinfected, scorched with fire, blasted with ultrasonic and filled with purifying sea water for 23 weeks.) Glad you like ducky.

Jade

It is actually iconatryitis.

I say lock ole Jeb up with the rats in the elephant's cellar for the duration of the Shrub's term.

Jade

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The possibility that the concept of Concept:Synergy was all a sham from the beginning, and if so, how it was/is pulled off. The inconsistencies never being addressed. The twisting of any honest, challenging question into negative ego. The pomposity and arrogance. The choice of ignoring what's going on by the One who says they're here to help us, love us forever (and a day), and be friends. The One's encouragement to invest in a borderline-illegal scheme that chisled even more $$ out of believers. The ultimate failure of the most perfect and wonderful woman in the world to consciously create her own goal of a long life (altho for all we know she may have achieved her goal of menstruating throughout the rest of it). And dishing us up a bozo president and leaving the rest of us to suffer the embarassment of him.

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Yeah, there you have the puzzle! I think that we will begin to understand it better as it starts to unravel. One of the reasons I'm so interested in what Jach will have to say at this intensive is to see how he strategizes now that he knows he's been placed under scrutiny. Until recently he has had a clear field of operation. Like all good disfunctional groups, the only information coming out is what he chose and all incoming information was completely controlled. Now his followers have access to information that was carefully hidden through the years, and if sanity rules, he will have to face the feedback. You can control some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time. That's my philosophy :}

It's easy enough to keep a myth alive as long as their is no provable contradiction to it, but that has ended. I believe that enough people have been shaken at least to semi-consciousness due to the shocking deaths and hopefully the information available on this site that Jach's free ride is now over. Let's see how well he functions as a paying customer, and that he is charged a fair fee by his fellow passengers. It's time for the teflon to come off of Jach. There certainly has been none offered to the rest of us. Ruthless invasion into the minds and souls of others has been long defined as Love by Peny and her Gang, now it's time for Jach to be Loved in the same way. If each of us who came into contact with that group was lucky enough to have been picked apart piece by piece, analyzed, judged, and condemned for Love why should Jach continue to suffer as the exception, especially now that we have a few glimpses of his "negative ego" issues?

Everyone marvels at the thought that anyone could pull of such an elaborate scam, I contend that it hasn't been elaborate at all, it's been a one way dialogue with Jach completely in control. I very much trust that the scam has just become much more elaborate, so let's see how well the master performs under the gun, and without his protector/motivator/raison d'etre.

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All these things and the hundreds more described on this site are making me re-examine just about everything I thought before. It's like playing pick-up sticks. Not all the sticks were picked up before Peny's death, but upon her death, all the sticks got dumped on the floor again. And since one of the required objectives in life (according to the gold stick) is to have fun, and I love games and detective stories, I'm magnetized to the affair.

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One would hope that this holds true for all followers whose sticks were dumped in the wake of the unexplained and undiscussable deaths. I know that some have been able to read here yet brush the information back under their bulging carpets with their "negative ego judgment" brooms, but it's extremely clear that the deaths and the way the news was handled is too big a pile for those trusty brooms to handle.

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My heart goes out to all who were injured. Cruelty is not forgivable in my book when the perpetrator doesn't take responsibility for it and worse, continues the behavior.

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I believe that all followers have been and are being seriously injured, worst of all those who are still straining to pull their carpets over this mountain of stench. It is beyond cruel to have played out this soul rape from the beginning, but it's become worse now that people are having increased demands placed on their credibility meters with not even being granted the right to speak their doubts, hurts, and concerns.

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Jade, I love your rubber ducky for the pool and the idea of a white elephant sale. Maybe the estate should be declared an historic preservation site and turned into a museum, with shrine and holy place, and of course a museum store that sells holy water from the pool. They can use the leftover vials from Peny's aromas.

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One of my favorite tourist attractions in England is Queen Victoria's summer home Oswald House on the Isle of Wight. The tour provides a very upclose and intimate peek into the life of that notorious Queen, and I think it would be a blast to get the same kind of view of Peny's day to day existance.

I would hope that an elaborate marker be placed along side the site of Michaell's departure, complete with the can of nitrous oxide and paraphernalia he used preserved as relics in honor of his heroic act of love and devotion.

The tour guides could take us through and give us a blow by blow of how Peny spent her days.

"This is the room where Peny healed her nearest and dearest with her unconditional love in countless all night sessions where their negative egos were exposed in all their horror for all to see. Close your eyes for a second, it's said that at certain times, her shrill voice and biting humor can still be heard resonating between the mammoth crystals."

"And now we move on to Peny's wardrobe. This was her favorite caftan, and as you can see, her make-up table is preserved just as she left it. Peny was one for grooming herself, as you can see, she was not content with simple compacts, but preferred to dig her hands sensuously into large buckets of eye shadow and blush. Here we see her fabulous wig collection, the envy of even Eva Gabor herself."

"Now onto the dining room, where we see the table still set for one of her famous dinners. Those crumbs you see on the floor are the remains of those upon whom she so generously heaped her great biting wit and wicked humor. Note her lovely collection of chintz china teacups."

"And then, to the focus of our tour,the kitchen, where Peny's presence is still felt, especially at midnight when it is said that on occasion the refrigerator and pantry doors continue to empty themselves. They are still kept well stocked with her favorite Haagen Daz, chocolate chip cookies, and a wide assortment of imported truffles and bon bons.
Peny had quite an eclectic appetite in life, note the neatly piled memorial pizza boxes all carefully notated with a listing of her unique and adventurous taste in toppings.

Before leaving, it is interesting to note the special little table there in the corner where Michaell was fed his daily breakfast of his favorite Fruit Loops, CoCo Puffs, and of course his beloved Lucky Charms. You can still see his little pile of green marshmallow clovers and pink hearts that he loved to make patterns with. Over here you can see where he spelled out deep metaphysical concepts with his Alph-bits. We have preserved the causal plane treatise he was working on the day of his heroic departure right here on his plastic placemat where it is now crazy glued and urethaned for posterity.

That bowl you see outside the door is where Jach's kibble was lovingly placed every morning."

"Moving along outside, we still see Peny's famous laptop preserved at her spot by the marble pool where she used to love to sit for hours, hounding through the internet, creating new chat room characters for herself, and keeping the souls of all liberals in line.

Michaell would float and splash along anxiously awaiting the toss of a big rubber ball which he had learned to balance on his nose and toss back to her. What a joy they were to behold. The world has never seen such a love."

"We will be breaking early today due to technical problems for the taped presentation of "Peny's Great Work". We tested the video today, and for some unexplained reason, it is blank. It is speculated that Peny's intense magical presence is wont to cause us a plethora of technical failures. We are so grateful to her for giving us these little nudges to keep us aware of her presence. Take care on your way out, there have been several instances of Peny's nudges sending visitors hurling through the air, but that only happens to those spiritual lightweights who can't handle her very special power."

"Thank you for visiting this special oasis of enlightenment, and monument to the Most Powerful Magician in the Universe." You will of course go away filled with gratitude for these special moments, all provided with much love for the insignificant fee of $500.

Postcards and souvenirs are available in Jach's bedroom over there in the outhouse. You may wear your shoes there, and smoking is encouraged.

An ample supply of toilet rolls should be available in Jach's top dresser drawer, please be sure to flush before you leave, because Jach finds it very disconcerting to awaken from trance to find his toilet bowl overflowing with foreign matter that wasn't there when he closed his eyes.

Katie

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Jach finds it very disconcerting to awaken from trance to find his toilet bowl overflowing with foreign matter that wasn't there when he closed his eyes

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And someday Jach will awaken like this.

I have literally laughed out loud and clear at many of the clever posts in this forum, but your tour-guide script wins for the shear number of LOLs. This is not to belittle your other points, au contraire, but you guys here are so very astute and funny that I envy your minds.

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Jade:
I wondered about Peny's plan to avoid menopause. Even the Orb described the importance of life passages, especially the spiritual growth and focus occurring after reproductive functions cease. So Peny's wish to keep her female hormones pumping full blast indefinitely was essentially contradictory to moving on into wisdom. All that Goddess talk, yet Peny chose to subvert nature and avoid becoming a Crone.

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Jade -- such a good point! I never put that together, probably because I didn't know, more likely forgot, about Lazaris's position on life passages. I was focused on postponing osteoporosis, not cronism.

BTW, I'm not going to try to find bankrupcy records for Tradevest. A lawyer friend of mine told me that if a corporation filed for bankrupcy, there's probably nothing in the records to find out about the members/owners/founders/sponsors/persons of the corporation.

Susan

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Postmenopausal osteoporosis is a disease of excess bone loss caused by a progesterone deficiency and secondarily a poor diet and lack of exercise. Progesterone restores bone mass. Natural progesterone hormone is an essential factor in the prevention and proper treatment of osteoporosis.

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I don't think we have to over stay our time in the reproductive stage to be healthy!

Jade

Damn you Jade! I had found that icon, and missed my perfect chance to use it!! You are just too quick for me!

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I don't think we have to over stay our time in the reproductive stage to be healthy!

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No, I agree, and like you, I really question this resistance on Peny's part to want to move into her Crone phase. From the time I heard of the woman phases, I felt that the Crone time would be the most wonderful.

I now proudly consider myself a young Crone in training. One of these days I'll even cop to my grey hairs, much to the dismay of my very sweet hairdresser!

Menopause has been such an adventure for me, and even more of a revelation about myself and womanhood in general. What a shame that Peny chose to diminish and avoid it.

Anyway, I believe that this generation of women is redefining what it means to age.

I shouldn't leave men out, because our own dear Ted is still in age defying mode. At 46 he still occasionally gets carded! Give me a break Ted!!! Go ahead, get a wrinkle!!!

Anyway, I don't see that menopause has stopped, debilitated, or even slowed down most of my women friends, other than to kind of highlight the issue of aging, but damn it, it's about time for us humans to learn to grow old gracefully again like most of our grandparents did.

Maybe if we get around to ending our deification of "youth" we will go far toward preserving our own youthfullness even as we gently age.

Katie

I think I finally understand the root of the Barbie doll bod image. You know, the anorexic with implants look. I remarked to my younger daughter about how she is getting thinner by the month, but she said not to worry, it's because she's nursing. Ah Ha! Mother nature does provide big breasts and a skinny bod to the woman who is actually feeding two people. Something to ponder.

Sorry about that swell icon Katie!! There are two in case you want to borrow one.

Jade