I have been mauling over thoughts during the past few weeks, waiting for a time to bring them to this message board. I have question. I do not know if it can be answered here but I would like to try and enter into a discussion. The issue I present may challenge some. I am comfortable with that. Those who feel challenged by my questions are free to responded but please note any derogatory remarks made about my intelligence or my spiritual state will be ignored.

What I am about to write is in no way an endorsement of Lazaris.

Over the 12 years that I studied the Lazaris material I came to recognize wisdom that had been taken from other sources. Lazaris admitted that they relayed material from other sources…"Why reinvent the wheel?" was the saying I heard them use. When reading other spiritual material I ran across lots of duplication. ("Hey, Lazaris said that.")I would say that 80% of the basic metaphysical concepts that they talk about is information that has reached humanity in other forms.

Beyond this there is one concept that I have never heard before and it has impacted my life greatly. This is the primary reason why I trusted Lazaris in spite of so many contrary events occurring in Concept Synergy. This concept hit me deeply and I can not just set it aside.

***I want to know if anyone can tell me if they have ever heard this concept from another source?***

'The future creates the present and lays it on the back drop of the past.'

This is a 180-degree shift in perspective to how anyone I know perceives the world actually working. If integrated into ones belief system this concept would certainly change the way you look at the world and how you would conduct your life.

The other day I came across a very interesting documentary on Cosmologist, Stephan Hawking. He claims that there is evidence that the future actual determines the present if only by a few moments a head of time. This is the first time I have ever heard of anyone else speak about this.

Any feedback?

Here are some Seth quotes posted by Jeremiah in response to a similar question.

http://www.cosmicfool.com/discussion/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000045.html

Hope this helps, I have nothing more at the moment.

I think the whole idea of creative visualization is based on this premise. By visualizing what we want - in the future, since we don't have it now - we are setting up the resonance of the future to produce what we want.

Visualization and goal-setting are certainly not unique to Lazaris. From a practical standpoint, that's really what they're saying. Shifting one's consciouness to the future, in order to create a present which supports that future, instead of a present which is the (inevitable) result of the past. Good advice, but not original.

In Seth's words - which are very similar to Lazaris' (not that particular statement, but others regarding time) - he says that cause and effect cannot be at play, since the past, present and furure are all one. By this logic, if a past cause cannot create a future effect, then a future cause cannot create a past or present effect either.

Which of our many possible future - which Lazaris says we have - creates the present? Well, the one we choose, I suppose. We can choose it by setting goals and visualizing.

There is a subtle, but important, difference though, between setting goals and choosing a future. Setting goals can be seen as a way to focus one's attention on the present actions to take to manifest that future. If one fails to take to actions, one may wind up with a different future. If one makes a clear and powerful descision that that particular future will be the one they experience, then the future will create whatever present circumstances are required to manifest that future.

Visualizing comes closer. But it is often wishful thinking, rather than choice. When one wishes, one visualizes with the hope that the visualation will manifest. When one chooses, one knows that the visualization will manifest.

Here's another article I found about time.
Maybe this will help.

This was never a Lazaris concept that grabbed me one way or the other, so I don't have much of an opinion about it.

Anyway, here it is:

http://www.time-travel.com/istimail.htm

Thanks for your replies. I appreciate them! I'm going to read the material you sent me Katie and get back to you.

Ted you wrote,

"There is a subtle, but important, difference though, between setting goals and choosing a future. Setting goals can be seen as a way to focus one's attention on the present actions to take to manifest that future. If one fails to take to actions, one may wind up with a different future. If one makes a clear and powerful discussion that that particular future will be the one they experience, then the future will create whatever present circumstances are required to manifest that future."

I understand this concept that you are writing about. For many years I accepted it as a fact. Now I am questioning it for myself. I think a lot of the questioning is coming from my experience with my son's illness. If I may be so bold as to ask...Do you believe in your heart that..."If one makes a clear and powerful discussion that that particular future will be the one they experience, then the future will create whatever present circumstances are required to manifest that future."?

For so many other circumstances I have (and still do) simply accepted this 'Truth' until Kaydn became ill. This is one of those concepts that drove me crazy! And how I hated it being thrown in my face by other metaphysicians (not that I am saying you are doing this!)when I was believing with all my mind, heart and soul that we would co-create a miracle!

As you can probably tell I am...Ohh what is the word I am looking for...confused? frustrated? angry? Ahh, I don't know. Questioning!!!

I guess I am just looking for answers to this situation I have co-created.

Wow this led into a painful area that I wasn't expecting!!

I'm sorry about Kaydn's illness. I can understand the frustration and anger.

You asked if I really believe in the power of choice. I hesitate to make an absolute statement about it or anything. But I have had quite a bit of success with making clear and determined choices. Probably the biggest successes I've had were the result of a choice - not technique or even processing.

The thing is, there may be conflicting choices at play. Especially where another person with free-will is involved. In your case, Kaydn has his own free will that cannot be over-ridden by yours. Whatever the case, you are not a failure. Loving your son with the passion and compassion that you clearly have is a success in and of itself. Love is more real than any illness.

I once read a story about someone who had a near-death experience. They said that they met with a counselor/guardian angel on the other side. The person told the counselor about how successful they were - how much money they had made, how many accolades they had received, etc. The counselor told him that wasn't important and asked him if he had ever loved anyone as much as he was being loved at that moment. He came back to life and focused on being as loving as he could be. That is the true measure of success.

More and more I am believing that spirituality is about BEING. I'm increasingly drawn to the spiritual concepts which captured me in my early adult years such as the concept Ram Das wrote about "Be Here Now", the Yin Yang; everything is everything, everything is nothing.

I believe that we are magnetic beings, and that our reality in the moment is a reflection of our particular energy of the moment. For example, this explains to me why it is evident that we are more prone to accidents, misfortune, or sickness when we are depressed or emotionally distraught.

None of that thinking helps you with your dilemma though, a bigger issue of a chronic or debilitating illness. (BTW, our friend Sandy who posts here occasionally has kidney failure also.)

Maybe the fact is that at the moment in which we knock on the door of the physical, and the door is opened through the invitation or acceptance of our request by our mother, our host into life, we are in that moment creating many of the realities of our physicality. Maybe we are bringing into the physical all that we are in that moment, and creating a contract of sorts with our host, our mother, in which we mutually agree to accept each other.

I think of this often, that at the moment of birth (conception?) we are "gelled" into a form which is reflective of our state of consciousness in that moment. I think we are creating our starting point for our physical journey by making the choices and forging the alliances we do in that particular place in time.

So, what we bring with us is of our choice, and those who contract with us to facilitate this physical beingness, primarily I would think, our mothers, agree to and accept us on those terms. For good or bad, I suppose, we have our reasons.

Or, maybe it's less complicated. Maybe we magnetically attach ourselves to each other and our circumstances through our resonance. Maybe some souls have better aim and timing than others. Possibly this is one of the great benefits of developing consciousness, so that we can hit more bullseyes when moving between the realms, or living in the moment.

What I'm trying to say is that although I do very much believe in reality creation, I'm not very convinced that Lazaris has provided us with any insights or techniques which are even close to being a match for the subtlety and complexity of what is really going on.

In my mind, because time is literally an illusion, there is no time of consequence other than "the moment". We all know that our lives can change in the blink of an eye, and I think that in fact they are changing in every blink of every eye. Some of the changes are just not as evidently dramatic as others, in the moment.

Everything exists in the moment. Everything.
"Now" is a hologram.

So, what difference does it make that time is an illusion, when we have the presence of "All that Is" (excuse me) palpably present in every moment?

I do believe choice to be a very very powerful energy. Choice is an option that exists in every moment. We can choose, or not choose, but we are always deciding our fate.

As to Kaydn's illness, and your role in "creating" it, I don't believe that you did, per se. You both agreed to it on some level, with some degree of consciousness.

How can we know why we make these choices? When I think of all the possibilities for incarnating, that we could end up being born into the pure hell of intense poverty,ignorance, and deprivation, as so many countless hundreds of millions have been throughout the history of our world, I wonder how intensely we can ponder the possibility that anyone living in our current society made a really bad choice.

When I think that it is very possible that I came here fresh with the remembrance and resonance of having just been in such a life, I feel so grateful that I made the choice to live in a world full of opportunities, and actually opulence, by the standards of most people on our planet.

Sick or healthy, rich or poor, we live in a world full of potential and solutions. We made a great choice, all of us, I believe.

I think our reality is in the moment, that past and future, even the present are concepts too limited and small to contain the totality of who we are. It's all in the moment, now. But, then paradoxically, it is also nothing. Of what significance are the events and emotions of our lives in the unfathomable immensity of eternity and beyond?

LOL...I'm wondering if this makes any sense at all! It's hard to express our thoughts and beliefs about these deeper concepts!

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Everything exists in the moment. Everything.

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Also, what makes the most sense to me is that, as Seth said, the "point of power is in the present." Right now, every now. Though someone may invest a particular future with energy, their power is still in the present moment. And this makes sense in terms of, everything exists now. And as Katie also said Divine energy is always available, available now.

(L had us doing a lot of diversionary, commercially profitable bouncing around with concepts like going home and then coming home. Or power being in the past, then power being in the future.)

Illness of a dear loved one can be more involved. I do believe that there are aspects of this type of situation that are taking place on deep levels and that usually they hold gems for us.

In the meantime, I'll be visualizing that I hear news from you that makes me glad for you and Kayden.

Jade

I think I just needed a good shot of spiritual insight! I fall into scenes where my head and heart spins into confusion. I think I have a good handle on the situation and then BOOM! Ted, Katie, Jade...everything you have written to me are concepts that I know. It's just good to hear them again and coming from a place of compassion instead of judgement.

THANK YOU!!

You are right Katie. It is so difficult to put this stuff into words!

Ted you wrote,

"You asked if I really believe in the power of choice. I hesitate to make an absolute statement about it or anything. But I have had quite a bit of success with making clear and determined choices. Probably the biggest successes I've had were the result of a choice - not technique or even processing."

I too have had amazing results with the power of choice.

You wrote,

"The thing is, there may be conflicting choices at play. Especially where another person with free-will is involved. In your case, Kaydn has his own free will that cannot be over-ridden by yours. Whatever the case, you are not a failure. Loving your son with the passion and compassion that you clearly have is a success in and of itself. Love is more real than any illness."

Well this brings tears to my eyes!!! Yes, I know that there is so many other factors involved here. I know I made a 'contract of acceptance' as Katie would say. Kaydn tried to leave as 8 months gestation. The healer that I was working with at the time said that what ever he had set up in this life, he was not prepared to go through. It was too big! So we both made a contract to be there for him in every way we could. 8 years later I found out what we agreed to.

Katie you wrote,

"What I'm trying to say is that although I do very much believe in reality creation, I'm not very convinced that Lazaris has provided us with any insights or techniques which are even close to being a match for the subtlety and complexity of what is really going on."

Wow this nails it perfectly for me!!!!!!!!!! And it is why I am so frustrated when people lay judgements about questioning what Lazaris is all about and what they truly gave us.
What I am finding is that some people on this message board have the knowledge of what Lazaris said but not the wisdom, compassion and maturity behind it. They do not realize that with every metaphysical concept that they declare to be 'Truth' there are so many more that we have yet to uncover that may throw a monkey wrench into their narrow definition of "Truth'. People do not know how hurtful it is when they start throwing terms around like, "You create your own reality." without any understanding of what the other person has gone through in their lives. You create your own reality is SO MUCH MORE than that simple sentence! I believe the 'T'ruth is so much more complex.

Jade you wrote,

"Illness of a dear loved one can be more involved. I do believe that there are aspects of this type of situation that are taking place on deep levels and that usually they hold gems for us."

Very true for me but some what contrary to what Lazaris says (another metaphysical concept that drove me crazy when Kaydn first became ill)...

"We do not need to learn through pain."

This can be used in such a simplified way and with great judgement.
Sure Lazaris said extract the gems out of the bad scene but the focus was on the fact that we didn't have to learn through pain, anger or sadness as thou these are negative states to be in. Are they? Are they 'bad'? I always believed them to be. But now I question that.

This also brings me back to this issue of what is God/ess? The idea that God is love, joy, happiness but not pain, sadness, angry no longer jives with me. I have a feeling that God is far more complex than anything we could pin a definition on to. Kaydn demonstrated this to me. I believe Kaydn, in his entirety, is of God (like all of us) even when he is in pain, illness or anger. I do not believe that God/ess is absent or we have pushed God/ess away when we are in these states.
Maybe we have pushed away the so called 'positive' aspect of ourselves that we strive to be more of. But I do not think that God/ess is just made up of the stuff of our preferences...light and love and all that jazzz. It's that BEingness that Katie is speaking of and that I am holding more and more of. In the moment BEing. Not Humandoing. Humanbeing. God/ess is. Human is.

As Jade pointed out…

"Also, what makes the most sense to me is that, as Seth said, the
"point of power is in the present." Right now, every now. Though someone may invest a particular future with energy, their power is still in the present moment. And this makes sense in terms of, everything exists now. And as Katie also said Divine energy is always available, available now.

(L had us doing a lot of diversionary, commercially profitable bouncing around with concepts like going home and then coming home. Or power being in the past, then power being in the future.)"

No time to be a human being! Gotta keep doing, gotta keep programming, gotta keep getting' yourself home!

But I rant…

So back to choice. How much choice do we truly have? This has become one of the biggest questions of my life. And in questioning have I eliminated the power of choice? If I do not truly believe 100%...If there is any doubt, am I leaving a door open to lack of choice? Or am I just being fucking realistic?

Lynn

I think this thread got lost in the shuffle, so I'm bringing it up to the top.

You pose some interesting and important questions, which at the moment I'm too tired to respond to, but maybe someone else?

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So back to choice. How much choice do we truly have? This has become one of the biggest questions of my life. And in questioning have I eliminated the power of choice? If I do not truly believe 100%...If there is any doubt, am I leaving a door open to lack of choice? Or am I just being fucking realistic?

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Maybe it's unrealistic to think that any one choice will provide the final answer or solution to our dilemmas, or transversely to believe that only one little choice will not make all the difference.

I think we have to live in the moment, and choose in the moment. Trying to choose into the future is impossible, IMO.

Even when we make a choice like "I'm going to go to college" or "I'm going to buy a new car" we really aren't making that choice, but the choice to make the choices that will culminate in more choices all leading us to the goal.

It's like one of those fun house mirrors where you just keep seeing yourself into infinity.

I think it's just too big to make a choice like "Kaynd will be healed of this condition." It's not a here and now choice.

I very much believe that choice is in the here and now, just as everything is.

So, yes, I believe that we have choices and that our choices define us and our reality.

So, I don't believe in any magical choice techniques, not at all.

I believe that every choice is powerful, important, and capable of creating miracles or causing devastation.

We are constantly choosing, and any one of those choices can enhance, change or even end our lives.

For me the issue is to make conscious choices, and make every one count.

You have no idea how hard it has been to get my thoughts about choice into words, I hope they make sense, or in some way are responding to your question.

Katie

I thank you for your thought filled words and attempt to address the questions I have.

They are very big and complex questions and they keep reformulating! It is difficult to even write them out as I am feeling these questions more than thinking them. I do not expect my questions to be answered all in one place or by one person. I just keep chipping away at them. A piece of the puzzle falls into place and more questions start to arise.
One of the big reasons why I bring these questions up here is because many of my beliefs about how the world works...how miracles happen...how success is achieved was formulated on what Lazaris said. I am now questioning everything about Lazaris. Not just the channel, not just Con:Sin but the concepts that Lazaris taught us, how they taught us and how much or how little they taught us.

On choice...I understand what you mean about making choices in the moment. Actually when I think about it, it is the only way I could live in this situation.
I live day to day. When we have a good day...we celebrate. When we have a traumatic day we do what needs to be done to get through it.
The difference for me lately is that I do not guilt myself out for not creating something different. For not programming more elegantly...more successfully. For all I know...this is success! Kaydn is alive and loved and so am I.
I have released the idea that I am in negative ego or martyr for creating this unelegant, painful, maddening situation.

It is in situations like mine where I realize that Lazaris material has very big holes in it. I do not believe I am just going to 'program' this situation to be different. Been there, done that, bought the crystal.

My son lives with a life threatening illness. And I no longer believe that any amount of technique, meditation, crystals, unseen friends or cosmic rides in dexra-what-ever is going to change that.

Can he be healed? I believe so. But it won't happen while listening to a Lazaris tape.

A friend first told be about the Con:Sin site and suggested that I get a membership so that I could go into the 'Crystal Cave'. She thought that I could receive some spiritual support and answers on how to help Kaydn. When I first wrote in I receive a few posts from some people wishing me well but silence from Jach and Penny. Oh they took the time to write to me about other things in a friendly manner but never once mentioned the crisis that was going on in my life. Since then I have come to realize that they deliberately avoid those areas that would require some sort of physical evidence of a miracle occurring. All the miracles and healing they talk about go on in peoples minds or they kept them to vague areas like taking the responsibility for preventing a storm causing too much damage. Hey the world would have ended by now if it weren't for the mapmakers union holding all together!

OK people might manifest a car or a job but these aren't real miracles. They are great! And no doubt happened because the person made a choice to put their energy into creating it but they are not miracles.

I have heard of more people having miraculous recoveries from simply praying than practicing any Lazaris technique.

Thanks for writing Katie.

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The difference for me lately is that I do not guilt myself out for not creating something different. For not programming more elegantly...more successfully. For all I know...this is success! Kaydn is alive and loved and so am I.
I have released the idea that I am in negative ego or martyr for creating this unelegant, painful, maddening situation.

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Here you have written in a nutshell the reason for my anger and outrage toward Jach Purr-sell. This is what price he is willing to extract from his customers along with his 40 pieces of silver from our bank accounts.

Goddamn it Lynn! To even imagine the shaming and confusion this two bit huckster has caused you is more than any decent person can stand.

But, that little side-show pimp knows about situations like yours better than anyone. He has listened to life crisis after life crisis in the private readings, through the Crystal Cave, and his personal interactions with people for years.

Do you think that vile doughboy gives a flying damn? No. He was too busy handing over his ill-gotten gains to the Big Bitch and giving her a platform for her own contemptuous side-show.

I am sickened once again Lynn to think of how this plastic board game was presented to you as a map and solution to this very intense situation.

I was once told by a professional lobbyist that there is nothing politicians fear more than an angry mother. That is because of the fierce and profound love that most mothers have for our children. Jach capitalizes on that kind of love through his false promises and dastardly masquerade as a powerful wise and loving entity that has solutions and answers for us.

Of course you were sucked in. What mother wouldn't be who is in desperate need of support, and hope?

He planted his doughy little self between you and The Divine, the real source of support and hope, and stole your time, energy, trust and devotion.

Well, excuse me straight to hell for being angry and wanting to speak out against this two-bit fraud.

He is a criminal of high rank in my mind.

I don't give a damn who comes here saying "well, you created it" "why did you create it?" Jach created this mess and no one else.

I'm standing tall with you Lynn, in the True Love of the Universe. I believe in solutions, and I really believe in the love you and Kaydn share. You both are already a miracle.

I celebrate your release from hell and defy anyone to explain away the horror of your Orb experience, or attempt to put blame for it on you.

You wrote,

"I was once told by a professional lobbyist that there is nothing politicians fear more than an angry mother. That is because of the fierce and profound love that most mothers have for our children. Jach capitalizes on that kind of love through his false promises and dastardly masquerade as a powerful wise and loving entity that has solutions and answers for us."

My problem with this is that it is very difficult to resolve the anger in this situation. There is no one on the other side taking responsibility for their actions. I do not believe I can just move on and pretend to forgive. I have some healing to do and it is a little more complicated when you can not sit down and talk to the person you are having the problem with. When you have to process this all in your mind it takes a certain amount of trust that healing is really occurring. Trying to heal the pain that I have with Jach and Lazaris is like trying to heal a pain with a person who has died. They are not available to talk to. (And of course there is Peny who has crossed over!)

My trust has been broken and I still do not trust that Jach is not continuing to do this to others. So how am I suppose to simply move on and forgive this? Besides like I said before, I believe that forgiveness is a consequences of healing. You can not force it. Pretending to forgive is far more unhealthy than knowing you are not in a forgiving state. Then you are still angry and denying it at the same time.

What I am currently doing is taking the steps TOWARDS healing this pain and I think that is the healthiest move I can make in this situation. Part of this process includes something called 'Being Witnessed'. I believe that in order for a pain to heal it must be witnessed by someone other than yourself. (Sitting down face to face or corresponding in an active dialogue.) Ideally it would be best to have the person you have the problem with witness it but in a circumstance such as this that is not possible. So the next best thing for me to do is talk about it with others who know what I am talking about. Will this go on forever? I hope not!!! But I still have some work to do here. I was involved with Lazaris for years and I am just coming to realize all of the shit that has occured over the years in the last few months. I have a way to go yet. There are still too many unanswered questions.

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My problem with this is that it is very difficult to resolve the anger in this situation. There is no one on the other side taking responsibility for their actions.

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OH YES!!! This is the root of the problem.
What is worse than having had a close and intimate relationship with someone, and then having them slam down a thick wall of silence and shut you out rather than face up to your issues, questions, and anger? It is painful, frustrating, and infuriating. Beyond that, it is diminishing.

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I do not believe I can just move on and pretend to forgive.

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No, me either. I'll move on when I'm ready, and I will never forgive Jach for what he is doing or why he is doing it. The forgiveness I seek is for me, forgiveness of myself, and personal resolution. I don't know how to forgive a person for offenses they continue to commit. I suppose the ultimate solution is to get far enough away that it doesn't feel so personal anymore.

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I have some healing to do and it is a little more complicated when you can not sit down and talk to the person you are having the problem with.

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Yes, very true. It's frustrating. But we do have to face up to the reality that Jach is never going to own the problems he is causing, or allow anyone to have a voice in stating them. This is why I so much hope and trust that someone will take the opportunity to at least speak these frustrations and questions to Jach publicly. At least then Jach cannot deny knowledge of these issues and some pressure will be lifted, just by knowing that our collective voices have been heard.

Lynn, it has helped me to find my ways to communicate with Jach and Peny, this site is one of them, and I have spoken out to both of them in email. As I think about it, as nasty as Jach's mail to me was, at least it was a response which gave me an indication of where his mind was about all this. It also allowed me to know that I was at least heard.

You can also be quite sure that Jach is aware of what is being posted on this site.

I don't get the sense of anyone from Orlando reading obsessively as was happening when Peny was alive, but we can be quite sure that every word posted here is read by someone from Con:Sin, if not Jach himself.

It would not surprise me in the least to know that he is being shielded by someone who is charged with responsibility to monitor this site, but to also keep him protected from the details.

I'll give Peny her due, as she told me in an e-mail once, she wanted to know. She wanted all the details, so I'm quite sure she read this site with her own eyes. Some have speculated that it was this site that sent her tailspinning into her final illness, I have no way of knowing whether that is true or not, but I am quite sure that she did not like what she read here, and that she was not capable of ignoring us. Jach on the other hand does not have even that much courage, IMO.

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When you have to process this all in your mind it takes a certain amount of trust that healing is really occurring. Trying to heal the pain that I have with Jach and Lazaris is like trying to heal a pain with a person who has died. They are not available to talk to. (And of course there is Peny who has crossed over!)

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Ultimately I believe that healing is very personal. I know that healing is taking place or I wouldn't be here. I would like Jach to participate, but since I know he won't I do have faith in my ability to resolve my issues on my own, and with the great support of you and our other posters here who are also in the process of seeking resolution. I hope that is why we are here.

Your post has made me realize that, oddly, I do feel a certain sense of resolution with Peny. I must admit that her death came as a relief to me. The imposed silence on discussing her death, and the resultant "kinder and gentler" Forum is a statement in itself, a kind of round about admission by those clowns that all was not well with Peny. Of course they don't want her discussed, they know full well how many people she hurt, and their shift of strategy in the forum also shows that they know damned well that her slash and burn tactics were not in the least bit loving or productive. I feel that Peny has been rebuked in death. There is no memorial for her, no celebration of her life, no exhibit of her accomplishments, only a blessed silence. I know that she took herself down, and Michaell's suicide was an ugly and demonstrative signature to a life poorly lived. Peny made her statement by the way she died, shrouded in shame and secrecy. I don't take pleasure in this, but I do feel a sense of resolution. Peny wrote her map, and all who followed her now know where it led.

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My trust has been broken and I still do not trust that Jach is not continuing to do this to others. So how am I suppose to simply move on and forgive this?

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I believe even Lazaris said that we cannot be expected to forgive the unforgiveable. I think that what is important here is that we not hurt ourselves because of what someone else did. We do need to own our participation, and address the reasons for that. We are not Jach, and have no control over him or his actions, but we do have control over ourselves. We can protect ourselves, and avail ourselves of the protection afforded by a loving Universe. How would you counsel a child who has been beaten up by a bully? You would soothe and comfort them, explain the bully to them, and let them know that they are safe and secure in your love, and teach them to protect themselves in the future. You would take every action to stop the bully.

Life is full of bullies, we have to know how to protect ourselves, and to me the first step is understanding that there is no true power in the acts of bullies. Maybe bullies are great teachers. Decent people learn how to work around them. It takes character to do so, without sinking to their level and becoming bullies ourselves.

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Besides like I said before, I believe that forgiveness is a consequences of healing. You can not force it. Pretending to forgive is far more unhealthy than knowing you are not in a forgiving state. Then you are still angry and denying it at the same time.

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Yes, and part of our healing is knowing our own strength and power, and that really, no one else has any power over us unless we grant it. Those who exert undo force need to be exposed, avoided, and disarmed. I very much believe that Jach's use of mind control tactics is an exercise of undo force.
We have a lot of disarming to do before the issue of forgiveness even enters into the picture, IMO. We don't send soldiers out into the battlefield with the thought that they should forgive the enemy. When we are being threatened, we fight first, and forgive later, if it seems appropriate. I'm still waiting for one of these new age forgiveness freaks to tell us that we should forgive Hitler, or Pol Pot. Some acts are just completely unforgivable, and IMO, it is not an indication of ill-health to feel that way. Lazaris says we should forgive the why of the act, not the act itself. When the why is ongoing greed and contempt, how do we forgive that? Why should it make us sick or wrong not to?

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What I am currently doing is taking the steps TOWARDS healing this pain and I think that is the healthiest move I can make in this situation. Part of this process includes something called 'Being Witnessed'. I believe that in order for a pain to heal it must be witnessed by someone other than yourself. (Sitting down face to face or corresponding in an active dialogue.)

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A very wonderful man I met who was at one time very close to Con:Sin used the term "Sympathetic Witness". He stated his support for this site because it provides that function, which he very much appreciated. When his dissillusionment with Jach and Peny began, he had no one to talk to about it. He was completely alone with his doubts and questions. He stated that he felt a great deal of healing, just from being able to share with others, even though his sharing here is silent.

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Will this go on forever? I hope not!!!

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We are also rebuilding. Our humor, irreverance, sharing of insights, and comraderie is, I believe, helping us to rebuild and refocus. That is one reason I so resent those who come here full of judgements, advice, and fervor to take this site down. There is a group of us here with a shared purpose and process. Who the hell is anyone else to tell us what it should be, or how to navigate through it?

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But I still have some work to do here. I was involved with Lazaris for years and I am just coming to realize all of the shit that has occured over the years in the last few months. I have a way to go yet. There are still too many unanswered questions.

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Yes, and when the work is done, you will move on, as I trust we all will. Like you, I want answers. I'm planning on hanging out here until we get them, or no longer feel the need or desire for them.

This is good sharing for me Lynn, it is helpful and healing. You are hitting the nail on the head about why we are here, and helping to get this site back in focus. I thank you for that.

Some of us who needed to find each other have done so, and I celebrate that. I celebrate just as much as each of us finds our time to move on.

Katie

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I was involved with Lazaris for years and I am just coming to realize all of the shit that has occured over the years in the last few months.

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Exactly my feeling. I know that forgiveness plays a big part in releasing and coming to peace about having involved myself with the Orb and Con:Sin. This does seem more difficult because the cult con goes on.

IMO Jach's greed (and his deceased partners) is based in an absolute disbelief in the kind of abundance preached by Jach/Lazaris. They connive and deceive to get it. Forget the "harm to none." People who have faith in themselves, their spirituality, and other people, would never stoop to lowly exploitation for their own gain. Maybe I'll be able to forgive because they are/were such empty, misguided, desperate people. All the lava and dinero they received is based on false premises.

Ultimately, I think Jach and C:S will bring themselves down, in the meantime I'm happy to participate in jump starting the process.

You said: Ultimately, I think Jach and C:S will bring themselves down, in the meantime I'm happy to participate in jump starting the process.

I hope you are right. Hopefully, there will not be a repeat of the JZ Knight scenerio (whereby she kept doing her thing after being exposed, albeit to a much smaller audience).

It is clear to me that both the material and Jach and the gang are deteriorating. It is time for Lazaris to make a graceful exit under the guise that the dear one is gone. Surely Jach realizes that major harm has been done to his reputation. It ain't going to get any better. One can't stop information that is legal from appearing on the internet. Why would Jach won't to continue under such circumstances? He no longer has to feed Peny's insatiable desire for money. His needs are obviously less modest than Peny's given his willingness to always live in the garage or servant's quarters while Peny and Michael occupied the "real" house. Jach, it is time to retire. Time to enjoy all of the money we all have given to you.

There has been much discussion as to whether Jach is a faking it. While I realize this is a definite possibility and certainly respect this as a valid opinion, I tend to think that he is simply an "impure" (ie, non-objective) channel. Under this definition, the "entity's" transmission gets translated and combined with the "ego" processing of the channel. What the entity talks about is from the experience base of the channel and is talked about using the thoughts and language of the channel.

The purer the channel, the purer the message will be. This would explain why the information seems to have deteriorated over the years. As the C:S crew deteriorated, so did the material. The only hope would be that Jach would have a major growth spurt as a result of all of the loss he has been through and without the negative influence of Peny. The C:S gang would have to be replaced. Then, under best of circumstances, the Lazaris we thought we knew might come through in a more clear fashion. A long-shot at best!

Cheers, Craig

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There has been much discussion as to whether Jach is a faking it. While I realize this is a definite possibility and certainly respect this as a valid opinion, I tend to think that he is simply an "impure" (ie, non-objective) channel. Under this definition, the "entity's" transmission gets translated and combined with the "ego" processing of the channel.

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I prefer to think that Jach is a fake, because the thought of an exploitative bodiless entity seems even more disturbing. The idea of an "impure channel" has been discussed on an older thread. Wouldn't the entity stop coming through if it's message is so obviously tainted by the channel? Or at least deal with the channel about it in some way

What I really regret is the two consultations and the one "magic time" I experienced with Jach/Lazaris. Whether Jach is faking it, or is an impure channel, this type of situation is too intimate and personal to experience with anyone or entity who is lacking in integrity. And as I understand it,Peny sat in on the phone readings. I would think that an honest entity would never allow itself to be misused by Peny, Jach's ego or C:S.

IMO the earlier material was better because they were drawing on other sounder sources, but as time passed, more and more of it was just made up and dished out in the familiar format.

I don't believe that a real "Lazaris" would put out information in such a way that it easily leads to a co-dependant internalization, in which one is frequently referencing what Lazaris said about this or that. Or that a real "Lazaris" would set himself up as an intermediary, like a priest, between the person and God/dess. Or would promise to always be there, even after death, as if he is our greatest help, and the what we have to look forward to after life. Every kind of boundary a person has is open for invasion, as if our own INner-dependence isn't enough. To me, all of this is emotionally, mentally and spiritually debilitating.

Also, the 1986 MLM scam was promoted as something the Orb thought would be good for us. I would think an entity with good intentions would have rejected channeling through Jach at that point.

The question of what "Lazaris' really is challenges our own sense of self trust. What exactly were we trusting and listening to all those years?

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The only hope would be that Jach would have a major growth spurt as a result of all of the loss he has been through and without the negative influence of Peny.

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A sign of a growth spurt would be honesty about Peny's illness and death. A real sign would be Jach posting truthful answers on this site, to the significant questions posed here. Also, I don't see Jach as suffering in some sort of servants' quarters. A 3,000 square foot guest house isn't typical staff housing. Personally, I'd take the normal sized house over a mega mansion any day.

I'm glad you are participating here and appreciate that you encouraged others to post.

Jade

You say:I prefer to think that Jach is a fake, because the thought of an exploitative bodiless entity seems even more disturbing.

If we assume that Jach is indeed channeling, I don't think the entity is necessarily what is being exploitive. I think the exploitation more likely may happen when the entity's energy is merged with Jach's exploitive personality.

I just had a thought while typing this post...maybe Jach has Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD). Maybe this other Jach is more intuitive than the normal Jach, more loving than the normal Jach, more communicative than the normal Jach, more intelligent than the normal Jach, more humorous than the normal Jach, etc. Maybe this other Jach comes out only under his going-into-trance ritual. Maybe this other Jach has SOME healing and psychic ability. Maybe this other Jach is also a bit of trickster and a master manipulator. Maybe this Jach has a better, but in no means perfect, connection with some type of higher intelligence.

My brief study of MPD shows that mutliples can have tremendously different physical (and obviously mental) aspects. For example, one personality might be diabetic with perfect eyesight while another does not have diabetes, but is nearsighted. There have been tests that show differences in the composition of blood chemistry that are present depending on which multiple is currently active.

You said: The question of what "Lazaris' really is challenges our own sense of self trust. What exactly were we trusting and listening to all those years?

I think it is difficult for us to come to the realization, as pointed out so wonderfully by the many posts in this site, that we were part of a cult. We all fell for it. I think we are a pretty intelligent group. But we fell for it. I like to think that I generally have a very high level of skepticism. I can't believe that I fell for it so long. However, they did their job SO well (until recently).

As I have just found the material on this site (this week), I have yet to share it with anyone outside of the Lazaris set. I feel too embarrassed and foolish at the present time to open up to the others to whom I have mentioned and defended my association with Lazaris.

You said: What I really regret is the two consultations and the one "magic time" I experienced with Jach/Lazaris. Whether Jach is faking it, or is an impure channel, this type of situation is too intimate and personal to experience with anyone or entity who is lacking in integrity.

I agree 100%. I think this borders on being a legal crime. I'm sure the crack lawyers representing C:S have covered this possibility by having us sign the necessary releases. If not a legal crime, it is certainly a spiritual crime. I was VERY fortunate, as I will share in a future post, that I survived my "magic time" and still view it as a positive experience.

Jade you said

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IMO the earlier material was better because they were drawing on other sounder sources, but as time passed, more and more of it was just made up and dished out in the familiar format.

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I agree. Jach had a lot of solid sources to begin with, and I think he's just been expounding and fantasizing ever since. We all know how enamoured Peny was with Sci-fi, I even found a sci-fi series that has a character named Lazaris.

When you take the material apart there really isn't anything there of substance or even common sense that couldn't be picked up at the local library. I mean, come on, Mills? What the hell is that about? And don't even get me started on the Arthurian legend and Orion crap!

Craig you said [/quote]I just had a thought while typing this post...maybe Jach has Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD). Maybe this other Jach is more intuitive than the normal Jach, more loving than the normal Jach, more communicative than the normal Jach, more intelligent than the normal Jach, more humorous than the normal Jach, etc. Maybe this other Jach comes out only under his going-into-trance ritual. Maybe this other Jach has SOME healing and psychic ability. Maybe this other Jach is also a bit of trickster and a master manipulator. Maybe this Jach has a better, but in no means perfect, connection with some type of higher intelligence.[/quote]

What healing is going on? Psychic, I'll give you, but not healing. No one managed to heal Peny, and trust me, they tried and believed they could. She was ill for many months and they never sought medical treatment for her because Jach et al believed they could heal her.

Maybe this was the big final irony. My theory is that Jach contrived this Lazaris character as a way of appeasing Peny. I think he made it his life work to try to keep that demanding woman happy,and what better way than to provide her with her own private all wise entity who declares her the most powerful magician in the universe?

I think Peny really believed, or let's say, wouldn't allow herself to disbelieve. How could she? What would be left for her but a complete sham of a life? So, here she lies sick and dying, the whole time believing that "Lazaris" is going to heal her. Talk about blowing it all on a bad bet!

I also believe that Jach believes himself, but I don't believe that several of those Gangsters are believers at all, they are just vicarious hangers on who are exploiting an opportunity to give themselves a life. Maybe they are the worst and truest of the criminals in all this. If any authorities wanted to get to the bottom of this fraud, they should put one of them under the bright lightbulb in the interrogation room. They don't have enough character between them to hold up under a pocket flashlight.

Craig, what is healing about the Lazaris materials really? Who is getting better? People are dropping dead, getting all kinds of horrendous illnesses, the Crystal Cave is constantly loaded with horror stories, and people who can't even manage to function beyond the barest of survival. The "successes" are like " Wow!! I got a minimum wage job after searching for 2 years!! Let's celebrate magic" or "Hey! I managed to "manifest" enough money to buy one of those incredible Lemurian Grandmother crystals from the back table, now I can really put some oomph into my programming for a place to live." It's pathetic in there!

I don't think there is anything healthy at all about the L materials. The Orb keeps us at constant battle with an endless parade of evil, negative, scary and bad parts of ourselves, so that we can really experience the magic and miracles. It's a carrot on a stick that requires us to compartmentalize ourselves, and in doing so, we are literally taught to turn against ourselves. When the "magic" doesn't work, it's back to the drawing board, picking ourselves to pieces, trying to figure out which of these rotten bits we have failed to banish or control.

And, as Jade points out, the goal is always Lazaris, we have to get close to Lazaris so "he" can function as our intermediary with the illusive and close to impossible to "know" GGATI. Give me a break!! And who does want that Orb showing up at the brink between life and death? And, for those who do want and expect it, who says it will actually happen? Imagine some poor soul getting ready to leave and reaching out for some lightbulb that never existed!

Scientology does the same thing, the big secret teachings are about how to die to avoid being brought back onto this "prison colony" called Earth.

These bastards aren't content to manipulate and control us in life, they want control of our souls as we pass over too. It's pure megalomania if you ask me.

I don't think Jach has any MPD going on, he's too consistant and calculated for that.

I think it's time to really deconstruct all this "wonderful, healing" information that we all believed to be coming from "Lazaris".

My experience is that once I really began to take it all apart, there isn't anything there to be so astounded about, but lots and lots to be pissed off about and get banished as fast as possible.

The fact that it is so hard for us , even in the face of all the evidence, once again leads me to wonder what exactly is going on in those hypnosis sessions and within the content of the tapes and seminars. I believe that because of our trust and faith we allowed ourselves to be mesmorized and lulled into opening our subconcious minds to endless suggestions which we have come to accept as fact. Since I've been paying attention, I've noted that even the sound of "L's" voice sends me instantly into la la land. I know that I allowed myself to become extremely conditioned to suggestibility during my "L" years.

I sincerely believe that we have to throw a bucket of cold water on ourselves and wake up from the trance before we can start really evaluating fact from fiction per the L materials.

I really appreciate your well-thought out posts Craig. It's great to have you here.

Katie

One more thought on the "impure channel" concept.

If "Lazaris" can get through one bit of valid information or truly healing energy, why can't he get through to let us know that all that is being offered in "his" name isn't coming from him?

This thought has been my complete stumbling block when trying to ponder the thought that there is such a being as "Lazaris", or at least that if there is such an entity, that he is worth listening to.

You said:Craig, what is healing about the Lazaris materials really? Who is getting better? People are dropping dead, getting all kinds of horrendous illnesses, the Crystal Cave is constantly loaded with horror stories, and people who can't even manage to function beyond the barest of survival. The "successes" are like " Wow!! I got a minimum wage job after searching for 2 years!! Let's celebrate magic" or "Hey! I managed to "manifest" enough money to buy one of those incredible Lemurian Grandmother crystals from the back table, now I can really put some oomph into my programming for a place to live." It's pathetic in there!

Fortunately, I've been shielded from the forum and the Crystal Cave. I know in my own case, I did experience some "miracles" and "healing" after I started listening to the Lazaris materials. What I can not say, though, is what brought these on. The more I think about it, the more I realize it was a part of myself that brought this on. We have all seen the tele-evangelists who heal people. I'm sure some of this could be real. But if it is, it is the person's own belief in healing that is allowing it to happen. Maybe we need something external to use as an excuse since we are either afraid of our own true power or don't believe in it. The fact that we may experience an unbelievably beautiful energy during or after a Lazaris encounter does not mean that the energy we felt was "given to us" by Lazaris. It is more likely our own beauty or love that we are allowing to feel, perhaps for the first time.

I am embarrassed to say that part of my belief in Lazaris's healing ability comes from him going on and on about the miraculous healings that were reported around this or that intensive or weekend (but never the lower cost evenings!). Well, if the guy is not giving us 100% of the truth, then why should be believe his stories about miracles?

Your comments about Jach and Peny believing make me discount the argument about Jach being a pure fake. If they did not believe, wouldn't they have seen a doctor immediately for Peny's recent problems? Under another topic, there was a recounting of a story from the MLM days in which Peny was all hysterical because someone wanted their money back. She barged into a seminar and demanded an emergency healing. This could have been good acting, but it indicates belief to me.

I currently believe Jach is indeed in same altered state (or operating under a different personality) when he "channels". But what the real source of the information he gives us is HIGHLY suspect.

You say:I don't think Jach has any MPD going on, he's too consistant and calculated for that.

My understanding of MPD is that with some people, certain personalities may only come out under very specific circumstances (such as his little getting into trance ritual). As far as Jach being too calculated for that, let's not forget the calculation that goes on when he realizes how much he makes by doing his trance thingy.

You say: My experience is that once I really began to take it all apart, there isn't anything there to be so astounded about, but lots and lots to be pissed off about and get banished as fast as possible.

Amen, sister! One thing that has always bothered me, even in my height of cult-hood, was that Lazaris mentioned on more than one occasion how they (ooops, I mean he) would experiment with techniques on Peny and Michaell before giving them to us. Shouldn't this be a huge clue that some of the techniques may be highly dangerous? Why is there a need to experiment with them oh dearest of Orbs? My impression is that if the techniques worked on P/M, they were then tried out on us guinea pigs at weekends and intensives. If marketing research indicated a high enough level of success, then the information is made available for widespread and public dissemination via the evening tapes. If this is true, I am very angry at being made a guinea pig.

I wonder if people who worked exclusively with the tapes or evenings benefited more from the material than those of us who attended the longer events where we were subjected to a lot a questionable stuff that never made it to the tapes because of bad reaction from the masses.

What the hell are we to think when the person Lazaris has come to see and who has unlimited access to the great Orb and his treasure chest of techniques dies? Oh yeah, I can hear it now about her being ready to move on to the next level of her specialness...

A belated and warm welcome to you!

You've been so prolific, I don't know where to begin

I think I did have an increase in metaphysical success after upon listening to a few Lazaris tapes. I had worked with metaphysics before. But I think my belief was enhanced by the "fact" that a "Higher Being" concurred. This enhanced belief could certainly manifest in increased efficacy. But it's still dishonest - like a doctor prescribing a plecebo, claiming it is a drug that has worked for many people. The lie creates faith, but it is still considered by most people - as well as the AMA - to be poor ethics.

Why not explain the fact that pleceboes work as often as they do because people are curing themselves with their faith? That would be much more empowering, and honest.

As for Jach and Peny believing - I think there are many levels of belief. One can force oneself to believe what they know deep inside to be false. If Jach is faking, can he really believe it on a Soul-level? Can Peny really believe it and still disregard and disrespect the teachings as she did?

I think the one bit of Lazaris' advice they took was the part about choosing the beliefs that work for you. Had they done that in accord with the Grand Orb's advice, though, they wouldn't have created this site in their reality.

There is a paradox about belief and Truth which Paramahansa Yogananda touched on. To paraphrase, Yogananda said that when one speaks only the Truth, then whatever they speak becomes the Truth. Thing is, ya gotta speak the Truth first.

You wondered if people benefitted more from just using tapes, rather than attending seminars. I think so. Certainly it was much cheaper. But also, it requires one to do more of the work on one's own, without the constant from the Orb and tha Gang. I think there is a lot less weight on the tapes than the live performances as well. One is more apt to twist oneself into a pretzel upon hearing nonsense or inconsistencies when one has spent a great deal of money and dedicated an entire weekend or more to working with Lazaris.

I appreciate your sharing with us. Thanks.

I think the less exposure one has to Con:Sin the less the damage, so people who just have listened to a few tapes are far less impacted than those of us who got closer and closer. Getting to know and interact with Peny and her Gang was a real eye-opener for me. So was getting to know more of the hard core followers.

I do believe though, that the material is toxic for the many reasons I've stated, most significantly because it erodes self-confidence and places obstacles between us and The Divine.

The Forum functions to provide a real birdseye view of what that Gang is about, and how the materials work for people.

Like you, Ted and I have had our successes and miracles. If we weren't exposed to the daily human wreckage in the Forum, we probably would have stuck with the materials forever and a day, who knows?

When you are in constant exposure to the behavior and thinking that is behind the whole Lazaris show it becomes harder and harder to swallow the story. I guess it's like going back stage to a big production and seeing everything up close where all the flaws and tricks are readily apparent.

It isn't because the materials "didn't work" for us that we began having doubts, it was
all the proximity which belies the mythology.

The questions about whether Jach is faking it or not really are irrelevant to me, although as you may have guessed, I have come to my own place of belief about them.

I've learned a lot about the power of denial and avoidance over the past few years, and it doesn't rock my world at all to imagine Jach playing this game out, even with himself.

Jach and Peny are sociopathic megalomaniacs, IMO, people who have completely eroded abilities to function from a place of conscience, or even reality. I'm sure Hitler believed in himself too, it didn't make him correct in his world view or tactics. I'm quite sure he felt he was doing a great thing by "cleansing the world".

I think poor dumb Michaell was their prime victim, and it now becomes so apparent why he was kept in the background. He was just a little nothing, riding on the coattails of one of the world's biggest scams. I shudder when I think of the price he paid for his sense of belonging to something important, and I'm not even talking about his suicide.

I think our biggest problem here is that none of us can really wrap our minds completely around the concept of a wholly consciousless person. It's just too foreign of a concept. Yet, history abounds with these people, and Jach and Peny admire and emulate some of these folks, like Mme Blavatsky and Tammy Faye Bakker. Also, their forays into the darker regions of "conservativism" are glaringly revealing.

I honestly believe that if and when we know the whole story of these two people, it will make it much easier to fathom how such an enormous farce could be pulled off so successfully. I know that the more I hear about them, all the little bits and pieces add up to two very disturbed individuals, and one world class co-dependency, far and beyond that which most of us can fathom.

Maybe it's because Ted and I are kind of a clearing house for information that it's easier for us to put the pieces together.

We have heard stories from and about scores of followers, ex-employees, current employees, business associates, and courted friends. The news is all bad. We have had only one account of a very generic kindness performed by Peny, and it is my opinion that Peny told that story herself. Even that account was fraught with contradictions and inconsistancies.

It is shocking to realize that not ONE person has been able or willing to step forward with ONE story of an act of kindness, unselfishness, genorousity, or been able to point to one socially responsible or creative contribution that either of these people has made to this world of ours.

What we have is a clear picture of two extremely greed and status driven people who have run roughshod over every person who has crossed their paths. The sad part of it is that some don't even recognize the abuse, or even worse, believe that it is some kind of helpful therapy for them.

I can't give a definitive explanation of how Jach pulls all of this off, but I have pieced together enough information and done enough research on the phonomenon of the human mind that there is no way I can accept that anything even close to decent or helpful is coming from that toxic waste dump Jach Purr-sell calls his mind. Any entity which would choose him to do anything more than scrub out public mens room toilets is no entity I want to hear from.

I don't honestly give a damn about the mechanics of the situation, I give a damn that my mind and relationships have been polluted by some very foul waste matter.

My objective is much more about clearing all that away and finding my own beliefs and truths in my own way, than really caring exactly what is going on there.

The quest for information is helpful for two reasons, IMO. One to satisfy the need to "know the enemy" the second is to provide information so followers and prospective followers are better equipped to know what they are dealing with. I believe that it's only responsible and fair to report what we know.

It's also great to have the ability to give and receive support for those whose belief system is cracking.

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What the hell are we to think when the person Lazaris has come to see and who has unlimited access to the great Orb and his treasure chest of techniques dies? Oh yeah, I can hear it now about her being ready to move on to the next level of her specialness...

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Actually, no. We are not to think at all. That would be an invasion of privacy.

GEEEZZZ!!!

Katie

Usually during these periods individuals tend to be more open and vulnerable. New ideas and techniques are more likely to "take" when we are seeking positive change.

About not calling the doctor for Peny -- lots of people, including myself will do just about anything to avoid the medical establishment. There are many alternatives these days, Peny and her gang may have relied on those methods, aside from Jach/Lazaris.

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I feel too embarrassed and foolish at the present time to open up to the others to whom I have mentioned and defended my association with Lazaris.

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I think we have all had to deal with this. I had to tell close family members and friends who had followed my lead on the Orb, but not as consistently, intensely, etc. Fortunately they all quit using the tapes. (My husband described his pleasure at putting two big garbage bags of L material in the crusher at the dump, because he felt freer too.) They also had to re-examine their spirituality. As for others who had remained sceptical about "Lazaris", yes it's embarassing, but the freedom that facing the truth brings brightens everything.

Jade

Oh yeah, that one! Telling our friends that we are no longer into Lazaris. HA! We've sure gone through that one too.

The way I look at it, anyone who does the old "ha ha see, I told you so" is a jerk and a half anyway.

Most of our friends and especially our daughter have been very interested in knowing what brought this change about. It isn't easy to express, because there are a lot of reasons.

My favorite is to just say "I found out I was in a cult." That usually opens the door for some interesting conversation, usually beginning with "wow, I'm glad I never joined a cult." or "I never took you for THAT kind of person."

It's good to discuss mind control and manipulation tactics with others. Those who are open will readily admit to having had similar experiences. Those who aren't are probably still in some kind of a cult or other. The world abounds with them.

My brother who always believed Con:Sin to be a cult sent me a link to a site that I've been meaning to put up here. I think he was trying to get me on the right track, now that I'm off the bubbly new-age bandwagon.

This site is so interesting, it captured my attention because the owner of the site has a lot to say about the dangers of hypnosis, he having been a hypnotist himself for many years. So, I took some time reading along.

As it turns out, this guy talks about many of the same issues we do here. With great force and passion he speaks of betrayal, manipulation, phony love as big business, the dangers of hypnotic suggestion, he even has meditations which can be listened to on his site that are full of disclaimers and warnings about suggestibility. I thought I found a gold mine...until....I kept reading.

I think this guy is the Christian Fundamentalist version of Jach Purr-sell, but even slicker and more scary. He is a mind control expert par excellence IMO.

Anyway, here is my bro trying to help me with my cult recovery, turning me on to a worse one!

In case you're interested, this is some really wild stuff. Wait till you hear what he has to say about marriage!!!!!! Maybe you won't want to..it's creepy.

http://www.fhu.com/

Anyway, beware your mind.... everyone has a new and better cult for us to join, but somehow, no one is in a cult except sickies.

Ted said: I think I did have an increase in metaphysical success after upon listening to a few Lazaris tapes. I had worked with metaphysics before. But I think my belief was enhanced by the "fact" that a "Higher Being" concurred. This enhanced belief could certainly manifest in increased efficacy. But it's still dishonest - like a doctor prescribing a plecebo, claiming it is a drug that has worked for many people. The lie creates faith, but it is still considered by most people - as well as the AMA - to be poor ethics.

This reminds me of an episode I caught last season of Ed. The doctor's defense was that it worked and that the high price was necessary to make the patients think it works. Sounds familiar to me (many $$$ later)!

Katie said: I do believe though, that the material is toxic for the many reasons I've stated, most significantly because it erodes self-confidence and places obstacles between us and The Divine.

I think I've been cutting C:S a bunch of slack because, as far as I can tell, it has had only positive effects on me. However, your statement above makes me realize how much more I might be right now had I devoted the incredible amount of energy spent on Lazaris to other areas. That makes me mad!

Katie said: I think poor dumb Michaell was their prime victim...

That is an interesting point. I noticed a lack of stories about Michaell and in my mind I guess I had grouped him with the others. Glad you clarified.

Katie said: Maybe it's because Ted and I are kind of a clearing house for information that it's easier for us to put the pieces together.

I'm sure you've heard a bunch a stories that you are not able to communicate because they are personal or the person is afraid to share for fear of retaliation.

Jade said: About not calling the doctor for Peny -- lots of people, including myself will do just about anything to avoid the medical establishment. There are many alternatives these days, Peny and her gang may have relied on those methods, aside from Jach/Lazaris.

Good point. Has anyone from the inside, to the groups knowledge, reported what techniques they used? I wonder if they were strictly from Jach/Lazaris.

Jade said: My husband described his pleasure at putting two big garbage bags of L material in the crusher at the dump...

You mean you actually dumped the material at a place designated for normal garbage? Shouldn't you have gone to a special hazardous waste disposal facility? {g}

Katie said: It's good to discuss mind control and manipulation tactics with others.

I'm hoping my disclosure to my teenage kids will help them avoid a similar fate. I want to wait until I have fully processed all of this, however, before I talk to them.

Katie said: In case you're interested, this is some really wild stuff. Wait till you hear what he has to say about marriage!!!!!! Maybe you won't want to..it's creepy. http://www.fhu.com/

I think it might more appropriately be called www.fu.com!

Thanks for all of your comments.