LOL...you said it perfectly!!!!!

[[["Ordinary" is a state of mind from which we don't experience the intrinsic divinity that imbues reality.

For example: One day I walk past a tree and notice that it is a lovely tall tree, and keep on walking.

The next day, I pass the same tree, only this time somehow I really see it, feel it, let myself be touched by it. Maybe there is a sweet, exquisite beauty about the leaves that literally moves me to tears. I'm suddenly aware of the glorious beauty of all life. I feel the immense Love that permeates reality, and I feel enfolded and uplifted in love. Same tree, different state of consciousness.]]]

I had to quote all you said here and agree with every word! It all depends on our state of consciousness at any given time for sure. Same hummingbird I see today is more beautiful tomorrow IF I'm relaxed and have the time to watch it and think about it, but when I'm busy and can only glance at it, though I feel a lift, it's nothing compared to that other state of consciousness.

[[[You know that saying, "What do you do before enlightenment? Chop wood, carry water. And after enlightenment? Chop wood, carry water."]]]

LOL...and so it goes... but I do chop the wood and carry that water with a teeny bit lighter attitude than I did previously............Love it!!!

Marilyn

Nice post. It certainly is a valid perspective that I have thought about. Enlightenment is "just" being in the present moment and appreciating it.

It's also possible that what you describe can be called a state of wonder, of awe and majesty, things that can be experienced but are no more permanent than any other emotions we experience.

Can enlightenment be of a different order? Not an experience in itself but lens through which all experience is viewed?

I believe we're both right. Enlightenment is certainly here in the moment. It also is beyond all states of mind and all experiences produced by those states.

Thanks for responding,

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Enlightenment is "just"being in the present moment and appreciating it.

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Can enlightenment be of a different order? Not an experience in itself but lens through which all experience is viewed?

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I think so. But I do believe that, before we live looking through that enlightened "lens", we get glimpses, and that these temporary non ordinary experiences change and prepare us.

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I believe we're both right. Enlightenment is certainly here in the moment. It also is beyond all states of mind and all experiences produced by those states.

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Yes, there are many ways to experience the depths and vastness of what one really is.

Jade

I would like to extend this discussion to the shadow side of spirituality, spiritual materialism.

One of the things that prompts me to bring up this topic is Katie's cry, where are the miracles?

From Lazaris Source Materials? thread, Katie said:

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… Lazaris promises stellar, mind shattering, life changing, world class miracles. That is what I'm still looking for. Do you have any to share? … We were promised and (are) looking for the big stuff.

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I'm not trying to diminish the personal triumph of your experiences, but trying to illustrate that they are not even close to the tremendous magic and miracles people using the Lazaris material are expecting to create… I'm looking for something that someone has created that is as big as the promises Lazaris is making.

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After all the promises, we're looking for one "magician to be reckoned with". One Uno no more... I'm talking mind shattering here, because that is what Jachzaris promised OVER and OVER again. Show me da magic!

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What is spiritual materialism? I offer a working definition. SM is the belief that spirituality should provide for not only our spiritual needs but our material needs as well. I have offered my definition of spirituality previously in this thread as seeking answers to questions such as who am I, why am I here, where am I going? SM extends that search to include how do I get everything I want without breaking a sweat?

L makes it sound like a natural extension to spirituality and others here seem to agree. In fact, I would surmise that, given Katie's questions, there would be very little dissatisfaction with L if his SM had indeed paid off. Is L's big failure the failure of his materialism or his spirituality? Or is it the equating the two in the first place? Why did we buy into it, that because we're spiritual, we deserve to have everything we want? Certainly I have no problem with people getting what they want. But is getting what you want dependent on being spiritual? Why tie the two together in the first place?

Is the SM in L teachings a cultural affect? Since our cultural is obviously steeped in materialism, would L have found any audience without the SM? Does L have any meaning to anybody apart from the SM? Is the SM in L an indication that L's spirituality is not what it seems?

Obviously I speak to those who have not completely rejected L as a fraud. In that case the SM is clearly a hook to capture attention and play off people's greed while assuaging their guilt for being greedy. For those who have not come to that conclusion, is there any other explanation or justification for so much SM in the teachings? Is SM a legitimate part of spirituality? Does any other acknowledged spiritual teacher promote it? If no, does that invalidate it? What does getting what we want have to do with spirituality?

I would certainly like to share my thoughts on these questions but rather than put them out now and color the discussion, I will let other weigh in first and share my feelings in my responses. L deniers are certainly welcome to share their perspective on SM in general and how it affected their relationship with L. No need however to bash L for it if they already disbelieve. I am not interested in the failure of SM taught by L so much as what the presence of it means in relation to L.

Hoping to hear from many,
TedC

I don't know what you are talking about, regarding this spiritual materialism (SM how cute), issue.

I don't think you have a clue about what people are speaking to when they mention "miracles" (not just Katie)

You appear to never have listened to any tapes...Am I right??? not Lazaris, or any others.....correct??

The way you have written this here, I can't help but get the creepy feeling that you are one of these cerebral guys that thinks he can start a conversation he can't finish, but he'll mess with everyone, and waste their time just fuckin' around before anyone figures it out....heh heh....

I don't think you've ever listened to any spiritual teachers... when they mention the "gifts", "miracles", "successes".

Just a little clue, no-one is speaking about $$ in a bank account, nor are they talking about shiney new SUV's..duh/huh

Of course Jach**ss does mention that you can have ALL of it,whatever you want etc etc
but that's just because Jach wanted to include everyone of course/ dangle those carrots: (see...SELL MORE TAPES/SELL-OUT SEMINARS)

Just another pointless conversation going no-where, thank god I have nothing to do at work today, nevertheless...I think one of us here will go off now and get a LIFE....

Sorry you've taken such a dislike to me. I don't feel I need to defend my L knowledge to you since you are obviously not interested in having a conversation but merely offering gratuitous insults. If you were interested, you would offer your own definition, mine was not meant to be definitive. If the topic doesn't interest you, why not ignore it instead of throwing a tantrum? There are other places to play where I'm sure your thoughts would be more appreciated.

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But is getting what you want dependent on being spiritual? Why tie the two together in the first place?

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Why not ask Lazaris? He speaks at great length on that topic also. Another one you seem to have missed. Join the Forum, and ask them why anyone is focused on material success.

I agree with Aud, it doesn't appear from your posts that you ever heard even one Lazaris tape. If you did, I'm missing it.

What specifically about the Lazaris materials is it that you are defending or recommending? That is still a mystery to me.

No, you don't HAVE to defend your understanding of the materials, but I would think you would be delighted to offer us some insights into the reasons behind your defense of Lazaris. It would be respectful also.

For me, it's endlessly tedious to have people come here and just state that Lazaris is great, the materials are wonderful and effective, and then rarely provide even a glimmer of a specific reason they feel that way, or provide any indication that they ever even heard the material. None of the arguments FOR Lazaris ever have anything to do with the actual material. It's bizarre.

Ted and I, along with many other posters here DID absorb the material. It simply does not live up to it's promise. That's a fact that has not been contested here, except by Tim, who claims to have been healed of HIV. I would love to know that it is so, but I don't understand why I stood over the graves of several AIDS victims who also used the Lazaris tapes and materials. Oh, I guess they weren't WILLING to be healed, can't blame that on Lazaris, can we?

Instead of explaining to us why we never should have paid any attention to what Lazaris said anyway, but then suggesting that the materials still have some value, why not tell us what the value is specifically?

BTW, if you don't like Audrey's posts, that is fine, but it's pretty damned rude to suggest that she go elsewhere because of it.
You are not the only person posting here, and no one is twisting your arm to read her posts.

I very much value and appreciate Audrey's participation here.

And, once again, why are you obsessing on MY posts, my opinions? I'm hardly the only person here who has spoken to these issues.

Katie

Thank you for engaging me. I feel you're being respectful which Audrey was not. She dismisses my knowledge of L all the while displaying a monumental better than attitude. What does that tell you about her knowledge? I wasn't suggesting she leave the board, just the thread. There are many threads here where she can discuss issues of more value to her.

I used your posts as an example of what I felt was spiritual materialism. Am I wrong in suggesting one of your chief complaints with L is that no one has produced miracles commensurate with the promises? That prompted me to think about L in a new light. Are the miracles proof of L's truth? Why do we need (insist?) on miracles to believe? Do we need our spirituality validated by material gain (not only monetarily, obviously, but in some physical manifestation considered valuable or noteworthy).

I have never considered myself an expert on this aspect of L. I never gravitated to his success and manifestation tapes. Does that mean I can't discuss it? I certainly wouldn't claim any authority but I do have thoughts and feelings about it. Perhaps you do consider yourself an authority, in which case I would invite you to share if the topic is of interest and you're so inclined. It would be valuable for me to have the perspective of someone intimately acquainted with this aspect of L and who does believe in manifestation techniques, if not L's.

I am not offering this topic as a defense of L. If you'll notice, I was only asking questions. You yourself have lead me to question L, although not for the reasons you state. I am not really interested that all his techniques did not work for you and that no one is producing the miracles you are interested in. That is a whole other topic. What I'm interested in is the fact that you have placed a great deal of weight on the manifestation of miracles. What other spiritual teacher is judged on the miracles their followers have produced? Yet L certainly does invite this kind of examination. Since I am interested in the spiritual aspects of L, what does this mean for me? Does L lose his legitimacy without the miracles? Are miracles a sign of spirituality at all? Should they be? This is what draws my attention.

Perhaps not yours as you have already made your mind up about L. I hope Jeremiah and anyone else who has not made up their mind might share some feelings. You're welcome to share as well, but again, my goal is not the promotion or denigration of L in relation to miracles in people's lives who have used the materials, merely whether equating miracles with spirituality and/or truth is a blind alley, a yellow-brick road, or somewhere in between.

It's very frustrating to me that you ask a question and then answer it for me.

I've certainly written here about my many reasons for being a Lazaris cynic, and the least of them is the lack of the promised miracles, I would place the inconsistancies, science fiction,lies, deceptions, mind control, manipulation, far above the lack of miracles, but that isn't to say that the failure to deliver as promised isn't significant.

I'm asking you again. What have you gained from the Lazaris materials that keeps you so attached to them? Why do you insist upon trying to place them in the center of a discussion about spirituality?

Of course the value of the materials should be evaluated based on whether they work or not.

I didn't go to Lazaris naively and irrationally expecting miracles, Lazaris promised me miracles and magic beyond my wildest imagination FROM DAY ONE. Why otherwise would I have been so interested?
I already had an active and satisfying spirituality before I ever heard of Lazaris.

Have you ever listened to a Lazaris tape?

I'd like to know which one did not make mention of magic and miracles. I can't think of one.
Everything about the Lazaris materials has it's foundation in allowing for us to clear blockages,or achieve some state of resonance which will allow for miracles and magic. Please name me one that doesn't.

As Audrey stated, not all miracles and magic are about money or material things. I mentioned healing illness in my post.

Honestly TedC, have you really worked with the materials?

Anyway, gotta run. Talk to you later.

Katie

Have I ever listened to a Lazaris tape? Yes, many. You can't think of one that doesn't mention magic and miracles? How about Releasing Self-Pity? Releasing Anger? Self-respect, Self-worth? Ending Loneliness? Intimacy? I have the transcripts if you would like to discuss.

Perhaps our difficulty here has to do with what we define as a miracle. I was going by your definition, not mine. "... Lazaris promises stellar, mind shattering, life changing, world class miracles. That is what I'm still looking for... ." I'm not talking about the miracle that occurs when you release your self-pity or find intimacy. Of course they are miracles but they are not what people think of when the word is mentioned.

Again, my inquiries aren't meant for those who have either settled the L question, such as yourself, or have no interest in miracles as they relate to spirituality.

You asked what I have gained from the L material. Awareness, simply awareness. I realize that this is not where you place your value, thus our differing views of L and also the reason why the failure of his techniques is not of particular concern to me. Techniques have nothing to do with awareness. The mastery of them says nothing about spirituality.

However you're emphasis on them (per the quotes) made me realize that this is what many people want from L. When it fails to produce, what does this mean? You say, bad techniques. I say, why does L even talk about the techniques? Why emphasize miracles? Is life about producing miracles or is it about how aware we can be? Does technique mean anything? Does getting what we want through a technique validate the spirituality?

Let me know if I've clarified, and hope you stick around.

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Have I ever listened to a Lazaris tape? Yes, many. You can't think of one that doesn't mention magic and miracles? How about Releasing Self-Pity? Releasing Anger? Self-respect, Self-worth? Ending Loneliness? Intimacy? I have the transcripts if you would like to discuss.

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Yes, I would like to discuss. In the introduction to each of the tapes Lazaris explains the reason that we should address the issue, or do the techniques. One of those reasons is ALWAYS because by doing so we will allow more unprecedented magic and miracles into our lives. I do challenge you to find one that doesn't. Every Lazaris tape is related to reality creation Ted, that is the fundamental principle behind ALL the material, and the much repeated promise is that we will become powerful magicians creating previously unheard of magic and miracles.

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Perhaps our difficulty here has to do with what we define as a miracle.[quote]

I'm going by Lazaris' definition of a miracle, not my own, and also Lazaris' endless and consistant promises as to the degree of miracles we would achieve by working with the materials.

[quote]You asked what I have gained from the L material. Awareness, simply awareness.

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I realize that this is not where you place your value, thus our differing views of L and also the reason why the failure of his techniques is not of particular concern to me. Techniques have nothing to do with awareness. The mastery of them says nothing about spirituality.

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Ted, you realize nothing about my values, trust me on that. I don't know where you get the idea that you do. It would also be helpful if you would get past your tendency to decide for me and others WHY we say what we do, and just respond to WHAT we are saying.

If you are suggesting that I have no interest in awareness, you are wrong. You are also wrong if you are suggesting that I believe the mastery of techniques has anything to do with spirituality.

I continue to be puzzled about why you say you are defending the Lazaris materials and then go on to dispute them in your own belief. That is most confusing.

Again, what DO you like about the materials, specifically?

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However you're emphasis on them (per the quotes) made me realize that this is what many people want from L.

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My quotes were about wanting what Lazaris promises, no more, no less. I think it's fair to say that most of us do/did, why you don't,yet continue to advocate the materials is anybody's guess. If someone sold you a computer and you got home and the box was full of bricks, would you want your money back, or would you proclaim the usefulness of bricks?

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When it fails to produce, what does this mean? You say, bad techniques. I say, why does L even talk about the techniques? Why emphasize miracles? Is life about producing miracles or is it about how aware we can be? Does technique mean anything? Does getting what we want through a technique validate the spirituality?

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Those are questions you'll have to ask Lazaris. Again, if you dispute "him" on that, why take it up with us, especially those of us who have given up using the material? Do you see how crazy making your arguments are?

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Let me know if I've clarified, and hope you stick around.

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No, your post only raised the same questions I've been asking you all along.

Katie

I have never disputed that every tape is about reality creation. It was your assertion that every tape mentions magic and miracles. The tapes I listed do not, I have the transcripts and we can go through them word by word if you like. If you want to assert that reality creation means magic and miracles, that is another argument. Again, we seem to be back to definitions.

I used your definition because that's what I was interested in. If I wanted to use L's definition (which is something that can only be defined by context), I would have. I used yours, first because I felt I understood it, and second, because it was your take on what L was promising. You referred to "stellar, mind shattering, life changing, world class miracles... ." This definition represents to me something paranormal. In your discussion with Chris on the Does the Information Work? thread, you discounted his description of a personal miracle ("Your story about finding the right musicians would be most impressive if you added to it that you were living in Siberia at the time and there was a ban on musical instruments. Then finding some musicians would be magical."). Your definition of a miracle seems to be something paranormal as well, is this true? You may no longer adhere to this definition, nevertheless it was the definition I was using when I posed my questions.

You want to know what I've become aware of? I think it's obvious, self-pity, anger, loneliness, self-respect, self-worth, intimacy, spirituality, dreams, probably a few other things.

While you may think I know nothing of your values, you have in fact revealed quite a bit about yourself on this board. I think it's obvious that my ideas about you have come from what you have said here and no where else. I'm confident when I say that miracles and magic creation is one of the qualities you have judged L by. Would you dispute that? I am not suggesting that you do not place any value on awareness, I'm only saying that it is not where you found value in L. Since you have rejected L without reservation, it would be inconsistent to now say that L provided you with many valuable insights that raised your level of awareness. Is this not true?

I have never argued that you say mastery of the techniques implies spirituality! Read what I wrote! I said:

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You asked what I have gained from the L material. Awareness, simply awareness. I realize that this is not where you place your value, thus our differing views of L and also the reason why the failure of his techniques is not of particular concern to me. Techniques have nothing to do with awareness. The mastery of them says nothing about spirituality.

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I also never said I was defending the L materials on this portion of the thread (spiritual materialism). What I said was, " I am not offering this topic as a defense of L. If you'll notice, I was only asking questions. You yourself have lead me to question L... ." You feel confused because you want to categorize me as an L defender where in this particular thread, I am not doing so. All I have done is ask the question, is spiritual materialism, as represented by your definition of L's use of the terms, magic and miracles, a legitimate part of spirituality? What I like about the materials is another topic, open for discussion if you are interested.

I do not dispute that you wanted what L promised. Should L have promised you those things is what I am asking. Should people ask themselves, why is he promising miracles? Does it make us spiritual if we can produce a miracle? Are we failures if we can't?

I am only taking it up with you if you are interested in the question! Obviously many here, yourself included, believe L is a fraud. In that case, I think it's obvious to you why L promised miracles, to hook you. Because more people are interested in getting what they want than in understanding what spirituality is and what it can mean in their lives. I thought this question might interest someone like Chris or Jeremiah more than yourself.

Nevertheless, after all this conversation, I do believe you are interested in miracles. You have asked the question more often than anyone, where are the miracles? Do you believe in miracles by the definition you have used? Is the creation of such miracles a legitimate goal for the spiritually-focused individual? L promised miracles and failed to produce. Does that invalidate his spiritual message? Why do you think the techniques didn't work, if you continue to believe in miracles? What is the value of miracles to someone on a spiritual path? I consider yours to be an expert opinion given the time and effort you invested in producing miracles based on L and would consider it a real value to me if you would share you thoughts and ideas.

I'll leave you to answer all your questions to me on your own, since you already know so much about me, what I believe and think.

In the meantime, could you please be more specific in your definition of what awarenesses you have gained from the Lazaris material?

The rest of your post is too convoluted and based on you once again telling me what I think and believe to answer.

I only quote you and draw inferences. If either are in error, let me know.

As for my awareness, what's your point? If you would like me to start a thread on any of the topics I mentioned, let me know, and why. They are all of interest to me but of little relevance here.

Sorry if you're confused. My point was simple. Are miracles an indication of spirituality/truth? If you were able to manifest what you wanted based on L, would you believe in him? What does any manifestation technique have to do with spirituality and why do we think the two are related?

You wrote:

"Are miracles a sign of spirituality at all? Should they be? This is what draws my attention."

What's your definition of "spirituality" in this case?

If it's based on the idea that whatever people do is somehow connected to their spirituality, then yes, technically, a miracle is a sign of spirituality (but so is parking the car and having a shower in that sense)but if you mean (as I'm guessing you do) a sign of spiritual evolution, than no, I don't think a miracle is proof or indication of such.

You wrote:

"Should L have promised you those things is what I am asking. Should people ask themselves, why is he promising miracles?

That is a great question.

On the one (negative) hand, promising "miracles" is a surefire way to get the attention of people who believe they're unexceptional and doomed to a mundane life paying bills and fighting with their in-laws; it's a seductive promise of easy greatness--you can bypass all the ordinary shit and pop! your way into a miraculous life.

Positively, why not push the envelope? Why not challenge people's perceptions of the "miraculous" as something reserved only for the superior beings among us or those blessed by God? Ultimately, isn't metaphysics about reducing that which you now perceive as "miraculous" to that which feels "normal" to you?

The problem with EFKAL's little miracle map was a message that miracles were easy to manifest, if one just processed effectively (a status that seemed ever more elusive with every passing tape) and the onus of failure to manifest miracles always fell back on the individual, not on any flaw in the material(which is a kind of double think; if the material is effective, it should work effectively, no?)

One more thing to all the ex-users out there; why did EFKAL not provide the "miraculous" techniques from the get go? (That shift always reminded me of the great bit from "All In The Family" when Mike commented on a new and improved detergent with the line "What was the first one, old and lousy?") EFKAL threw some mumbo jumbo around about people not being able to "handle" the awesome power of the techniques before he deigned to unveil them but c'mon--it took over fifteen years to prepare the world for a fucking sphere of light? And this is the being who's showing us how to do it nice 'n easy? Hullo?

You wrote:

"Does it make us spiritual if we can produce a miracle? Are we failures if we can't?"

No and no :)

flo

Thanks, Flo, for a wonderful post. I agree with what you say, especially about the "new and improved" techniques we were constantly receiving.

I have to admit I have not followed this thread very closely, but I want to respond to something that seems to be a theme. That is the idea that C:S or Lazaris promises that material reality should easily be abundant because we are so spiritual. What I got VERY strongly from Lazaris, over and over again, was that material reality could easily be abundant because it isn't real -- it is, and I quote, "silly putty." We can have ALL OF THE SILLY PUTTY THAT WE WANT. And nobody had to even be "spiritual", or anything, except maybe willing. or deserving. or... And because it isn't real, it is all done with mirrors, so to speak, as soon as we get the hang of the mirrors, voila! Just recognize, acknowledge, forgive, and change. If that doesn't work right away, it is because of a resistance to recognizing. Or acknowledging. Or forgiving. Or changing. But change, which happens instantly, will happen if we will just be more brutally honest with ourselves, but more tender with others, more and more owning that we might still be in martyr, in self-pity, in shame, obeying our dark law, stuck in our web of anxiety, hanging onto the old bottom line, poisons, hidden agendas, oh, and of course, go to the causal plane, meet your ancient one half-blind, be willing to receive, be a winner not a loser, take your higher self, meet the old man, meet the old woman, meet all the archetypes, speak to all the muses, spin a disc, dance in triumph, go out on a mill, be sure to integrate all of the faces of the self, and practice a seven-day ritual every solstice and equinox, create a temple of dreams, go there every night, create a temple of your soul, go there every night, discover your spiritual heritage, go there every night, meet your boundary dweller, meet your bottom feeder, make a mask, take off the cloak of your world's disguise, program for 33 seconds, program with tones, work with your shadow, awaken your desire, awaken your brain, learn your personality drive, your lean, your soul's path, your ego's path, go to the very Goddess herself, go to the shining ones, go to the eaglepeople, the crystalpeople, the catpeople, the dolphin people, go to the dog and cat people, go to your safe place, go to the edge of safety, go to the valley of lost souls, find your lost dreams, release your old dreams, work with your child, your adolescent, your young adult, your old adult, allow more of Lazaris' love, allow more of your higher self's love, expand your success cube, find that ribbon of road, discover your subconscious, go to the imaginal realm, go to Sirius, go to Lemuria, go the crystal cave, go in your double-tetrahedron, go in a dewdrop, go through the rip in time and space, meet a dwarf or gnome, meet a fairy, meet your council, meet an effeminate man, meet a bawdy woman, and don't forget to review all four steps to all seven processes for all of the above. Oh god, I have to stop because it is getting really late, but you all know I could GO ON AND ON AND ON!!!!!!!! But, dear ones, it is easy! It is not simple, but it is easy. It is not complicated, but it is complex. Only our martyrs fear the complex. It is silly putty, and we can have all the silly putty we want. There is nothing to stop us. If we don't have what we want in our reality, all we have to do is recognize, acknowledge, forgive and .....................

Thanks, Flo, for a wonderful post. I agree with what you say, especially about the "new and improved" techniques we were constantly receiving.

I have to admit I have not followed this thread very closely, but I want to respond to something that seems to be a theme. That is the idea that C:S or Lazaris promises that material reality should easily be abundant because we are so spiritual. What I got VERY strongly from Lazaris, over and over again, was that material reality could easily be abundant because it isn't real -- it is, and I quote, "silly putty." We can have ALL OF THE SILLY PUTTY THAT WE WANT. And nobody had to even be "spiritual", or anything, except maybe willing. or deserving. or... And because it isn't real, it is all done with mirrors, so to speak, as soon as we get the hang of the mirrors, voila! Just recognize, acknowledge, forgive, and change. If that doesn't work right away, it is because of a resistance to recognizing. Or acknowledging. Or forgiving. Or changing. But change, which happens instantly, will happen if we will just be more brutally honest with ourselves, but more tender with others, more and more owning that we might still be in martyr, in self-pity, in shame, obeying our dark law, stuck in our web of anxiety, hanging onto the old bottom line, poisons, hidden agendas, oh, and of course, go to the causal plane, meet your ancient one half-blind, be willing to receive, be a winner not a loser, take your higher self, meet the old man, meet the old woman, meet all the archetypes, speak to all the muses, spin a disc, dance in triumph, go out on a mill, be sure to integrate all of the faces of the self, and practice a seven-day ritual every solstice and equinox, create a temple of dreams, go there every night, create a temple of your soul, go there every night, discover your spiritual heritage, go there every night, meet your boundary dweller, meet your bottom feeder, make a mask, take off the cloak of your world's disguise, program for 33 seconds, program with tones, work with your shadow, awaken your desire, awaken your brain, learn your personality drive, your lean, your soul's path, your ego's path, go to the very Goddess herself, go to the shining ones, go to the eaglepeople, the crystalpeople, the catpeople, the dolphin people, go to the dog and cat people, go to your safe place, go to the edge of safety, go to the valley of lost souls, find your lost dreams, release your old dreams, work with your child, your adolescent, your young adult, your old adult, allow more of Lazaris' love, allow more of your higher self's love, expand your success cube, find that ribbon of road, discover your subconscious, go to the imaginal realm, go to Sirius, go to Lemuria, go the crystal cave, go in your double-tetrahedron, go in a dewdrop, go through the rip in time and space, meet a dwarf or gnome, meet a fairy, meet your council, meet an effeminate man, meet a bawdy woman, and don't forget to review all four steps to all seven processes for all of the above. Oh god, I have to stop because it is getting really late, but you all know I could GO ON AND ON AND ON!!!!!!!! But, dear ones, it is easy! It is not simple, but it is easy. It is not complicated, but it is complex. Only our martyrs fear the complex. It is silly putty, and we can have all the silly putty we want. There is nothing to stop us. If we don't have what we want in our reality, all we have to do is recognize, acknowledge, forgive and .....................

quote:

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Obviously many here, yourself included, believe L is a fraud. In that case, I think it's obvious to you why L promised miracles, to hook you. Because more people are interested in getting what they want than in
understanding what spirituality is and what it can mean in their lives. I thought this question might interest someone like Chris or Jeremiah more than yourself.

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TedC, there are many books and programs, like Tony Robbins', for people who are focused on "getting what they want", but are not interested in delving into their spirituality. "Lazaris" has a pretty bag of hooks, and makes many promises including profound spiritual growth and manifesting amazing successes. Everyone I have known who was/is interested in "Lazaris" was attracted by the promise of spiritual growth and understanding, because they were already seeking it before they ever heard of L. I doubt that individuals who are purely interested in material success would be bothered with the Orb's mountain of circumlocuitous teachings. And the "mapmaker" designation would be meaningless.

I think you are making a rather blind, insulting insinuation about Katie and the rest of us (except Jeremiah and Chris?) in terms of why we were attracted to L, and our desire to grow spiritually.

In fact, this reminds me of Chris, who tends to overlook what is going on with other people in favor of his own voice and intellectualizations.

Jade

If you have ready my posts here
you would know that I've said many times over that Ted and I have produced many miracles of "manifestation".

We were doing that before we met L and have been doing it since leaving the materials.

So, no, this is not sour grapes on our part, and yes, I still have major issues with the L materials that have nothing to do with magic and miracles. I and others have written extensively about that too.

Pop quiz for you TedC, why did Ted and I put up this site? You can cheat, we have written about 10 pages full of our initial reasons in the "Friend or Fraud" part of this site, and expanded on those reasons in hundreds of posts here.

Given that we've explained ourselves over and over here, it does seem very rude that you keep asking a question with sheer determination to get another answer from me, one that meets up with your own explanation evidently, but has no basis in what we've written here. The magic and miracles bit is ONE reason, it's hardly the only or the major one, it's just a failure to deliver a product as promised. My biggest complaint is what IS being delivered in it's place.

It isn't what I DIDN'T get from the L materials that inspired this site, it's what I DID get. This site is in part, an attempt to figure out how to get rid of my "gifts" from Lazaris.

Where do you get your ideas about people if you don't read the posts here?

I thought you took a lot of time reading posts here before you started posting yourself.

What inspired you to visit this site in the first place, and what did you read here that supported the very strong opinions you stated in your first post?

And, once again, what is it SPECIFICALLY about the L materials that you like so much, and how have they benefitted you?

Katie

[This message has been edited by Katie (edited 06-28-2001).]

quote:

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It isn't what I DIDN'T get from the L materials that inspired this site, it's what I DID get. This site is in part, an attempt to figure out how to get rid of my "gifts" from Lazaris.

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Yes Katie, returning those "gifts" is an ongoing process. (Too bad there is no refund.) It's similar to eating unhealthy, toxic food for a period of time. After you stop, it takes some time to flush all the toxins from your cells.

Love,
Jade

Thank you very much for responding. I agree with you that performing miracles is not a sign of spirituality. I believe we associate miracles with s. because of the bible. To me, L touting miracles is a diversion. I'm not sure yet whether it actually detracts from his message for me since I was never drawn to it anyway. I think I tried programming once. I lost interest quickly.

It does misleads people. Many here feel cheated and mislead. It makes spirituality into a magic act, which it most certainly is not. It can foster greed, delusion, false hope. It promises much, delivers virtually nothing.

Positively, you say it challenges people's perceptions of what is possible. This is true when it's demonstrated. L never demonstrated. I do believe in creating my own reality but I don't believe it is a miraculous process. If I believe in myself, in my goal, take steps to achieve my goal and my goal materializes, is that a miracle? This is what I believe L magic and miracles really was about but I can't defend that when Katie asks for the "stellar, mind shattering, life changing, world class miracles." L, I believe went over the top and invites that inquiry by his language and emphasis. Indeed, he made it sound easy, 33 seconds worth of effort. I think all here can testify, it's not easy and takes longer than 33 seconds (as a side note, what does EFKAL stand for?).

"Does it make us spiritual if we can produce a miracle? Are we failures if we can't?"

"No and no." Thank you, I agree.

I do believe miracles are possible. I think it's naïve to believe anyone can do them using a technique someone told them. Emphasizing technique is like saying, "here is how you paint, now go create a masterpiece." You may do the technique for the rest of your life without producing a masterpiece and it is neither the fault of you nor the technique. What makes a miracle possible, like a great work of art, cannot be put into words. Who knows how long it takes to develop the attunement required to perform one. Maybe it is only those who are born with it that can do it. Was Leonardo a product of technique? Was Michelangelo? It's fine to aspire to that ideal, but not to trivialize it (anyone can do it, it's easy, etc.).

I want to thank you very much for that incredible post! In whatever spirit it was offered, I found it interesting (how long can he keep this up?!), comprehensive (you covered all the bases), amusing (how many bases?!), insightful (L in a nutshell), creative (!), fascinating (!!), and brilliant (!!!). I will probably copy it to keep somewhere so I can show people when they ask me who is this Lazaris!

I have another response to it but first I must give you your due. I applaud your effort, I applaud your wit, I applaud the forceful, original, and dynamic way in which you make your point.

Bravo!!!

Do you have any idea what Sky Voice's post was about?

quote:

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TedC, there are many books and programs, like Tony Robbins', for people who are focused on "getting what they want", but are not interested in delving into their spirituality. "Lazaris" has a pretty bag of hooks, and makes many promises including profound spiritual growth and manifesting amazing successes. Everyone I have known who was/is interested in "Lazaris" was attracted by the promise of spiritual growth and understanding, because they were already seeking it before they ever heard of L. I doubt that individuals who are purely interested in material success would be bothered with the Orb's mountain of circumlocuitous teachings.

---

quote:

---

I think you are making a rather blind, insulting insinuation about Katie and the rest of us (except Jeremiah and Chris?) in terms of why we were attracted to L, and our desire to grow spiritually.

---

quote:

---

In fact, this reminds me of Chris, who tends to overlook what is going on with other people in favor of his own voice and intellectualizations.

---

quote:

---

If you have ready my posts here you would know that I've said many times over that Ted and I have produced many miracles of "manifestation". We were doing that before we met L and have been doing it since leaving the materials.

---

quote:

---

Given that we've explained ourselves over and over here, it does seem very rude that you keep asking a question with sheer determination to get another answer from me, one that meets up with your own explanation evidently, but has no basis in what we've written here. The magic and miracles bit is ONE reason, it's hardly the only or the major one, it's just a failure to deliver a product as promised.

---

quote:

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Where do you get your ideas about people if you don't read the posts here?

---

quote:

---

What inspired you to visit this site in the first place, and what did you read here that supported the very strong opinions you stated in your first post?

---

quote:

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And, once again, what is it SPECIFICALLY about the L materials that you like so much, and how have they benefitted you?

---

Someone put a nail in my eye if I ever respond to TedC/Chris again!!

Katie

quote:

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Originally posted by Katie:
Sweet Fucking Jesus!

Someone put a nail in my eye if I ever respond to TedC/Chris again!!

Katie

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Nice martyr Katie, you're soooo misunderstood!

Thanks for your entertaining and informative post. I t does put it in perspective.

You forgot the Nemesis, though. I hope you can acknowledge and forgive yourself for that

in for experementation...

whenever you type the word culture on this board, you might want to type it: "cult"ture.

Imagine how different the responses might be.

I sincerely enjoyed your post but of course it's strictly a caricature. My take on L is that he offers a smorgasbord. You can take what you like and leave the rest. Trying to take it all however is probably not a good idea. First, it doesn't all apply to you. Second, you're probably not interested in all of it. Third, a lot of it is redundant. Fourth, you don't need it all for any particular purpose. A lot of us were fascinated by L and went overboard trying to hang on his every word. It's unfortunate but it's not L's fault. He is fascinating but the overindulging is all ours. In fact, it's my belief that if people just applied one core tape to their lives, that's all they would need. Try dropping self-pity. See if you have any other problems after that.

L became entertainment for most people, whether they will admit that or not. He was great! He really was. He was so great in fact that we would rather just listen than do the work. I don't criticize people for that, I did it too. His endless story-telling and embellishing doesn't detract from his core message. To criticize him because he hasn't run out of things to say is like criticizing one's self for thinking the same thoughts over and over. Of course they're the same, yet they're always different. Human emotions, human desires are finite, ways of describing them are not.

Hope you drop in again on the conversation,

I'm curious. Why do you refer to Lazaris in the past tense in your post?

Also, you wrote:

quote:

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In fact, it's my belief that if people just applied one core tape to their lives, that's all they would need

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Someone suggested that once in the Forum and they were slaugtered. Not an indictment of Lazaris, but of the Gang. I just can't resist pointing out how screwed up those people are