I was surfing the web as is my usual practice of a Saturday night before I go out partying and I came across a very interesting website dealing with the topic of Memes.

Basically, a meme is the fundamental unit of idea and related to the gene. According to the site I shall mention below, memes are ideas that replicate themselves in willing hosts. An example of a meme would be "Coke adds life" or "You create your own reality". The only animals besides humans that have memes are birds of which some species will imitate each other's bird calls for a mating ritual.

Some memes are useful, like :"Drugs are bad akay?" and others can be dangerous like :"Love thy neighbour but don't get caught"

Memes are contagious.

One way of innoculating oneself against them is to develop a meta-meme. A meta meme is a meme that recognises other memes. An example of a metameme is skepticism. It innoculates one against any old meme that comes along and forces one to be verrrry careful what one is going to swallow and accept and allow to reproduce in ones mind/soul. One can be infected by a metameme which cures one of lots of "bad" memes. Sometimes being infected with a metameme is quite painful bee coz it means that all the memes that one has acquired along the way and are so much bewl shite have to be tossed overboard. A bit like having to get the phlegm up after the bronchiolitis is over - or even better having to squeeze the boil of its badness. But once the bad memes are gone, life is a lot easier.

Memes reproduce very quickly - so innoculate yourself. Be skeptical. And don't let any entity cause you to get soul-itis.

Oops, I think I just coughed up a spark of light.

Muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch Looooooooooooooooooooooove
44444444444444444444444444
Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeverrrrrr
&
a
Dayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Eeeeeeeaghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Robert in South Africa (I think).

http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/MEMES.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2424/memetics.html
Otherwise just look up meme or memetics on a searched engine.

Bye!!

Wow, great post!

This is the kind of information that really helps those who choose to ponder the concept of how someone can be mind controlled and manipulated into a false or damaging belief system.

So many have just a knee-jerk response when presented with such a possibility, that "it could never happen to me" reaction.

The Lazaris material is chock full of memes, and they are not only implanted through repetition, but through the use of hypnotic suggestion.

Some agree, and find that to be just fine since they also have been implanted with the meme that they are so much better of for having been exposed to the materials.

Some disagree that there has been any process of suggestion, and don't even recognize how susceptible the human mind is to such a concept.

I think it serves us all very very well to carefully ponder the sources of our beliefs.

What's amazing to me is that there is not one shred of evidence that the Lazaris memes are true or beneficial, but that is covered by the "negative-ego" meme. "If I don't get it, it's because I'm in negative-ego".

The memes that keep us hooked and blinde are the "We love you forever and a day" and "you are map-makers, powerful and majestic magicians".

These memes tap into our human need to be loved and our desire to be "the best".

I notice that even here, the "love meme" is powerful medicine. Mindless, ridiculous, even foul thinking is successfully passed off
with the sign off "Love" or "Love and Peace". That's why I love Lava and Peas so much, they are too funny to function as memes.

What's sad about these hollow memes is that they serve no purpose other than to keep us hooked on something not only valueless but damaging.

I believe that nemes are powerful on a physical and unconscious level. Our human mind is susceptible to them, but our souls are not, so it's imperative to learn to communicate with our souls and allow them to evaluate the information which we receive.
Our souls will tell us the truth.

I suggest that most spiritual and religious dogma is very much geared to keep our souls bound and gagged. The truthful voice of the soul is the complete enemy of man made systems that are of their essence geared to
divert our thinking to a belief in some man made philosophy.

Dogma is control. It is a way for a group of people to feel "right", not be right. Soulful thought and experience is always a challenge to dogma, and that is why it is strategically discouraged.

I'm still pondering why it is so mind shatteringly important for most humans to have our beliefs validated by others.

I know this is an issue for me, I have to constantly review my reactions in the face of disagreement. I'm learning, and practicing shutting down that part of me that feels attacked in the face of disagreement. It's a process, but a very joyful and comforting one. I believe it will add quality years to my life, when I think of the huge amount of stress it causes to be constantly concerned with whether or not anyone agrees with me.

I think there are times when agreement is really important, such as when a society makes agreements about certain behaviors like murder, rape, or extortion being unacceptable.

Maybe it's a security issue. Our agreement on vital behaviors like this provides us with a certain sense of being protected from them, because we know that just about everyone will stick up for our right to not have them imposed on us.

Maybe our desire for security has gotten completely out of control to the point that
we can't differentiate between threatening behavior and free expression.

Possibly the very same function which serves to protect us, when ignored or overlooked also serves to ensare us.

Well, you sure sent me on a stream of consciousness, but that's a good thing!

It is all about consciousness isn't it, this spiritual quest? Ultimately, I believe that our degree of true security is relative to our degree of consciousness.

Memes are sure one little trick of consciousness that can either serve us, or enslave us.

It's very good therefore to be aware of what they are and how they function.

Thank you for providing us with one more key to our consciousness.

Now, what do we do with those little sparks of light once we have coughed them up?

Is there a nasty memes waste dump where we can get these things buried once and forever?

Interesting too, that the word "meme" can be separated to read "me me".

Katie

It's good to hear the surf is good downin S. Africa!

Thanks, I was just thinking about skepticism as I was making the security rounds here at work. Then your message came up!

Good analogy and funny too the way you say it. I agree strongly - and just want to add maybe a little caution about skepticism not taking on a meme life of it's own and growing malignantly into cynicism.

This is not advice to anyone out there in S. Africa or anywhere else. But just a comment on something that is important to, and works for me. And as Robert said, with this attitude, "life is a lot easier."

With Healthy Balanced Skepticism,
Robert near Boston I'm pretty sure

More on the "memes".

Given my recent obsession with investigating and understanding the function of cults, I have come across quite a body of material which indicates that AA or 12 step programs are functional cults.

The first of the twelve steps demands that we admit powerlessness over our addiction.

The second step demands faith in a power higher than ourselves to provide for our healing.

Let's just stop right there and consider the consequences of accepting those beliefs which function as memes given their widespread acceptance. Those who don't have a belief in any specific higher power are encouraged to view the group as such. (ding, ding, ding, ding!!!!)

Funny that a group who holds claim to so much knowledge of the nature of co-dependency immediately sets one up with all new members.

I found a site which contests the effectiveness of the twelve steps, and provides an alternative approach.

It's kind of a simplified version of the negative-ego stuff, minus all the self-loathing, terror, and dependency upon the Lazaris materials and techniques.

With this technique we separate our "real mind" from our "addictive mind" by recognizing that our true self would never encourage us to harm ourselves.

So, we play this little mind trick every time we have the urge to do something that we KNOW is destructive, like take that drink, drug, cigarette, chocolate chip cookie or whatever substance it is that we know will not serve us, but harm us.

We separate our "true mind" from our "addictive mind" by depersonalizing it. We name our "true mind" "me" and our addictive mind "it".

When we "hear" the thought "I want a drink", we change it to "it wants a drink", thereby separating the thought from our sense of our true selve, and assigning it to the addictive self, the self we would like to quiet down.

When we assign that thought to "it" we can then ask why "it" wants the substance, recognize the stupidity of the thinking, and tell "it" no. This way we remove the feeling that we are depriving "ourself" of something, and instead saying no to something that is not a part of our true self.

I suggest that the same can work for memes or any potential belief.

By running the meme through the depersonalized mind first, we can evaluate it without embracing it.

So, for example, when some multi-dimensional being, or even human being says "I love you", we can hold it separate in a little holding area before we start allowing it into our blood stream, and tossing it onto our "true self" before knowing if it will be a burden or a benefit.

I don't know, I'm writing this and it sounds almost ridiculous, and elementary. I'm afraid though, that it isn't. I think we're all screwed up in the way we are willing to accept every feel good belief or thought that passes through our mind. That's why there are so many cults. We see a cookie, we eat it.

We just aren't doing even the most fundamental housework of keeping the trash in the trashcan and emptying it regularly.

Maybe that's a better and simpler analogy to all of the above. We are really well served when we learn the difference between a glossy ad for something and the actual article itself, and between something that looks or feels good, and something that actually IS good.

Trash belongs in the trash can, advertising is trash, and items of value are acquired through a thoughtful process which involves evaluation, decision making, and earning the money to pay for them. Even gifts must be received with discrimination. Not all gift-givers have clean agendas.

By the way, the guy who put together the alternative to the twelve step programs is charging a thousand bucks for the taped program.

I think a basic functional trash can can be purchased at K-Mart for under 5 bucks.

I'm going for one of those super duper stainless steel jobs available from specialty stores for about 150 though, I think it's worth it to invest in a really good spot to keep my trash.

Katie

quote:

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and just want to add maybe a little caution about skepticism not taking on a meme life of it's own and growing malignantly into cynicism.

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Thanks for the caution, it always serves to cause self-doubt to warn against the dangers of thinking.

That too is a cult tactic; foster self-doubt for no apparent reason.

Given that we see many many signs of malignancy within the Lazaris community, I think we're on pretty safe ground here as to what is dangerous thinking and what is not.

Thanks for the thanks! Yippee! I really admire you for the stamina and engagement you and your hubby have put in around this whole nasty issue of the L C:S Cult. I imagine it must take a lot of energy and work on your part, so I take my hat off to the two of ye. I am not sure I would have the strength to keep engaging when things get really tough.

The realisation that the Lazaris thing is one glorified cult thing and the desire to extricate oneself from it really amounts to this: "I was so wrong for so long". And that is the hard part. And that is part of the reason many of us feel that we want to be right this time. And isn't it really so human to want to be right and to want to know the answer and to be able to make things ok and all of that? I was reading this book called "Don't sweat the small stuff" and the fella who writes it - what's his name again?...Richardson I think it is... says that one should practice letting other people be right and that we need to really practice letting go of this type A behaviour of wanting to be right. I must say, I find that a bit difficult, cos I ALWAYS wanna be right. But I have tried doing it. But in the words of Yoda "Do or do not do - there is no try". So there you have it - that's me. Maybe I will be wrong one of these days. hee hee.

Going back to the topic of memes. I think that all beliefs are memes. Belief is an interesting topic. Belief to me means that you hold something to be true even without proof, usually because it has face validity - in other words it seems plausible, or because it makes you feel good. But so does candyfloss, crisps, candyapricots and icecream altogether.

Just because something is plausible or makes you feel good, doesn't necessarily make it true or even good for you. Cigarettes make me feel great but I know they are bad for me.

I really feel we need to be SKEPTICAL. I am at the moment feeling that ANY belief is bad. I am trying to be skeptical of everything and won't believe it until it is proved to be true consistently. For example: This meme: "Your create your own reality" is one of the most (in my opinion) punitive beliefs/memes anyone can have. Even if one understands the whole category error thing in philosophy. Now I would admit that i do create my responses/reactions to what happens and that in some way I contribute to what happens in the universe by being in it myself, but I REFUSE TO BELIEVE THAT I CREATE MY OWN REALITY. For this reason: I have a lot of shite happen in my life. I always used to say "why did you create that?" and then feel really bad for it. I was not good enough - I had not programmed or processed enough - my inner child was sabotaging me and all that crap. I had to get another Lazaris tape to help me (be further deprogrammed and enslaved to another being/non-entity's memes). But the point is Katie, I am good enough you know.

But this is the point. Life is shit sometimes. And sometimes it is cool. The rain falls on the crooks and the goodguys. Sometimes bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people and they don't get punished. And sometimes our good efforts go unrewarded. That is LIFE. The sun shines on the holy and the wicked. Life is pain sometimes and sometimes delicious.

The problem we tend to have though, in our over consumerist, lazy boy lifestyle, is that we have been programmed by mediamemes that life is supposed to be lovely and delicious all the time. And it IS NOT. Sometimes it is Kak (to use a southafricanism). But becuase we want it to be njum njum delicious all the time, we allow ourselves drugmemes like Lazaris who will Teach us to programme a perfect reality without the bad times. And if it aint Lazaris it will be some other Non-Entity.

A friend of mine, T, says that we should abandon all belief, all religion, all faith. She says that all religion even Satanism has the following two things that connect us to Spirit: (1) Compassion. (2)Connectedness to all of Life. We don't need beliefs. We can be skeptics or scientist or whatever, but if we can develop those two things in ourselves we will never lose our souls. I must agree with her. We don't need no Lazaris or Kryon or Whomever to tell us how to be. Every single one of us has a sense of those two things and can develop them by just allowing them to be.

Me personally, I think Sex is the best way to awaken both of them. But that's just me.

Best wishes. Katie you are a STAR. Yippee!
Love
Robert

Just so you know one thing: I am ALWAYS RIGHT OK? Don't you ever forget that now!

I agree strongly - and just want to add maybe a little caution about Belief not taking on a meme life of it's own and growing malignantly into cloud-Koo-Koo-ism.

This is not advice to anyone out there in the Republic of Boston or anywhere else. But just a comment on something that is important to, and works for me. With Healthy

Skepticism is Balanced You know
Robert in Johannesburg I know

Good loving advise though!

(Aside: I hope you don't mind me calling you Rob, since that's your username. It distinguishes you from the other Robert)

Thanks for the accolades. Interesting you should mention having the stamina to keep engaging. Actually, I'm losing stamina in that area. This site is full of facts, opinions, observations, etc. which point to Lazaris being either a total fraud or at least potentially dangerous. If people insist on rationalizing, that's their business. If I end up being the only person on the planet who thinks Lazaris is Kak, I'm at peace with that.

Richard Carlson is the author of Don't Sweat the Small Stuff, BTW.

You wrote:

quote:

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I really feel we need to be SKEPTICAL. I am at the moment feeling that ANY belief is bad

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I think we need working beliefs - i.e. a belief that provides some order in our lives. These are beliefs upon which we base practical descisions. Because we believe in gravity, we don't step off a cliff. Jach as fraud is a current working belief of mine. It could possibly change. I used to have a working belief that Lazaris was real. I don't think that belief worked too well for me

I do believe that we create our own reality. I don't think it needs to be punishing. One reason I'm a successful computer programmer is because I know that I can get the compter to do what I want (within certain parameters). If my program isn't working properly, it's not because of karma, fate, bad luck - it's because there is a logic error that I can fix. It's quite empowering. I don't beat myself up (usually) when the program doesn't work - I examine the symptoms and look at the possible reasons for them.

I see this as a microcosm of my overall reality. My overall reality is infinitely more complicated than any program I've ever written, but I still have the power to change it.

If God is just, wise and powerful, why would she create it any other way? It's simply not fair to create a situation where people don't have the power to use their free will and to determine the consequences thereof.

Reality Creation becomes a meme - or maybe a manipulative soundbite - when it is not owned and understood by the person touting it. It's a tool for our personal power, not our power over others.

I certainly agree that we don't need Lazaris or anyone else telling us how we should be or hijacking our language. I agree with your friend about the essense of religions. And I agree that Katie is a STAR.

You wrote:

"Good analogy and funny too the way you say it. I agree strongly - and just want to add maybe a little caution about skepticism not taking on a meme life of it's own and growing malignantly into cynicism."

Good point--if you're really going to adopt skepticism as a philosophy, that would include being skeptical about your skepticism, no? (Like little Russian dolls; one act of skepticism leads to another, and another, and another..:)

flo

Thanks Rob for the meme info...I printed out the first 13 pgs. from one of the sites, and as I am still at work, haven't had tons of time to read and digest it all....

It does seem to point to what I have been feeling regarding the Jach/L. seminars,,,

: I HAVE BEEN A MENTAL PARASITE HOST..

**ALL I CAN SAY IS ***** GET THOSE ICKY THINGS OFFA ME...!!!!

I will respond more when I get my brain back,,just kidding,,, I need to take this home to read it with my full attention.....

,,,And I tend to agree: the((OTHER))-"Opiate of the masses" is something I have always preferred as a means of opening compassion/ connectedness vs any standard, old-time- religion..heh heh....

Seems like some pretty good ideas come "out of Africa" lately..

I tried to link a page on here, but alas I'm an internet neophite; my all-time very FAVE SCREEN SAVER is a cool guy from South AFRICA..whadddya know!!!
you can easily find him @ Anthony Steele, the screen saver is called MANDALA,(it is on his personal website) and it is the BEST..

Chow for now,
Audrey

As this is a good thread, and others are discussing different views on cults, I thought it a good idea to bring this thread back.

I did read the material from the site, it's quite interesting.
Ciao,
Audrey

This fits,

quote:

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Ultimately, each new member contributes to the power of the leader by trading his or her freedom for the illusion of security and reflected glory that group membership holds out.

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From same site, on cult exit loss and grief,

quote:

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The loss of innocence (the result of feeling that one had been spiritually "raped, used, betrayed) (84%)

Grief over the years "lost" in the group (71%)

Grief regarding "what could have been . . ." (71%)

Loss of meaning/purpose in life (69%)

Loss of trust in religion (68%).

Although exiting a high-demand group signifies, and carries with it, hope of a new life filled with individual freedom, especially the freedom to make one’s own decisions and choices, departure also means coming face-to face with a multiplicity of losses.

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www.csj.org/rg/rgessays/rgessay_grief.htm

They forgot to include issues about self trust on the list. I think the site is an interesting resource.

Jade