Anyone have a good reason to expend energy defending Lazaris when there are so many other less questionable sources of metaphysical/spiritual insight?

Why bother?

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Originally posted by Jeremiah:

Anyone have a good reason to expend energy defending Lazaris when there are so many other less questionable sources of metaphysical/spiritual insight?

Why bother?

Jeremiah

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Good question. I believe that the converse is also something to think about. Given the information and experiences documented on this site, does anyone have a good reason to continue to expend energy challenging those that express belief in Lazaris, the materials, or trying to find yet another bit of supporting "fact"?

Would our energies be better spent elsewhere, or focused on something else?

For myself, I am quite satisfied by the doubt that has been planted to move along with caution. My predilliction to suspicion in this matter is affirmed. My perspective has nothing to do with Lazaris, per se, but with any representation of "authority" promulgated by human voice or action.

Cheers,
Chuck

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Given the information and experiences documented on this site, does anyone have a good reason to continue to expend energy challenging those that express belief in Lazaris, the materials, or trying to find yet another bit of supporting "fact"?

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Yes Chuck, there are many many good reasons to continue to apply the pressures of truth to Concept Synergy and Lazaris.

Of course, nobody who is satisfied is compelled to do so.

If you or anyone is happy with the conclusions they have come to with respect to Lazaris and Concept Synergy, so be it.

The more you understand about the beast the more able you are to free yourself from its clutches.

Every fact, every piece of information is another opportunity for many people who may have been punishing themselves with self doubt the opportunity to see that it wasn't that they were unworthy but that they had placed trust in a corrupt entity [no pun intended]

It is a series of hooks being unhooked and the more information the more it helps to put in context and support the foundation of a newly discovered freedom from a vice of dependance, self doubt and inertia.

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Would our energies be better spent elsewhere, or focused on something else?

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Nope.

If you feel your energies are better spent elsewhere, I encourage you to follow that impulse.

Ultimately of course, there will be an end point hopefully sooner rather than later where concept synergy is exposed. And we will be past talking about it. Great thats the way it should be.

Again, if you are satisfied thats fine for you but many are not.

That is what I am after maximum exposure of Concept Synergy and Lazaris.

By maximum exposure I dont just mean the negative stuff, the hateful stuff although I am pretty certain from what I have heard there is plenty more of that.

I also mean the positve stuff that may be buried in all of that.

I want to know it all. I don't have any desire for it to be any worse or any better than it really is.

But, the truth will come out. They will be exposed.

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For myself, I am quite satisfied by the doubt that has been planted to move along with caution. My predilliction to suspicion in this matter is affirmed. My perspective has nothing to do with Lazaris, per se, but with any representation of "authority" promulgated by human voice or action.

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Personally, I cant quite understand why you wouldn't want to examine this issue of corrupted authority with respect to CS and Lazaris any further than just knowing it is there.

Are you afraid it is "negative" and thus aprehensive about getting too far into the truth for fear it will make you "negative"

Nothing could be farther from the truth, imo.

As wise men always say " The only solution to darkness is more light"

Why stumble around in the dark out of fear of what you might see there?

This is a really good question, IMO.

I'm trying to figure it out myself.

I'm also trying to figure out why our criticisms of Lazaris are being received with such concern, and even anger and fear.

I'm getting it that the Lazaris critique is very threatening and upsetting to some of our posters here, even to the point that they are taken as a personal attacks by some.

The irony for me is that it is the followers of L, whose teachings are allegedly about power, freedom, and dominion, are the most fearful and confused about all of the above.

This speaks so loudly to me of cult mentality. If there is one fact that supports my belief that Con:Sin is a cult, and that the Lazaris materials themselves are very much a part of the mind control and manipulation practiced by that group, it is this.

There seems to be a dilemma of control here,
a jockeying of "power" on the part of the Lazaris defenders and supporters to try to overpower the critical comments that are made here about Lazaris. Any and all tactics to accomplish that are acceptable to some it would seem. We create enemies who must be destroyed at all costs when we give so much power to the opinions of others.

I have noticed that those who defend Lazaris are strangely silent when there are actual personal attacks made by those of similar perspective against those of differing ones. Have you noticed that?

I have been called every name from here to Sunday, and been accused of every kind of rotten behavior yet I don't recall one time that any Lazaris defender has provided me with any "support" in those cases. It's ok, I'm not looking for that kind of support, but it is interesting for me to note the seeming paradox of ethics. It's as though there is a sense that those of same thought should be defended, and those of differing opinion are the enemy so the same rules do not apply.

Let's just ignore the fact that we are all standing on the same ground here, ground that is provided by the "enemy" as a place for even dissenting opinions to be aired.

I wonder if it has occurred to my critics to notice that I manage to function just fine in the face of not only dissent, but character assassination and the most vile of insults.

I have never understood why differing opinions cause some people to go so ballistic. I noticed this on a political message board where I used to post, and we surely saw it in the Forum. It is though in the minds of some, we should all think the same or we are a complete threat to each other, as though an opinion is a lethal weapon and must be defended against at all costs.

I won't deny that there is some thinking and behavior which I consider to be dangerous. I do.

The only way I know to counter these dangers is to allow for an open dialogue about them. This fear of expression, and attempt to manipulate and control free expression are more scary to me than any thought, opinion, or idea could ever be.

One thing I learned about the concept of dominion is that when you are in it, you know that no one can take your power. It is the only ironclad defense we have against the control tactics of others, physical, mental, emotional, or spiritual.

Lazaris taught us that. I happen to agree. Let us not forget though, that Lazaris didn't discover dominion. Our forefathers provided a formula and guarantee to allow for all to find our own places of dominion if we so choose.

My disagreements about other aspects of Lazaris are not weapons. I have no battle to win, other than the one within.

Why are thoughts and opinions so threatening, especially to people who are invested in a body of teaching which purports to support the concept of individual freedom?

Everyone likes it when everyone agrees with what they have to say, I guess it's a form of personal validation, so transversely, I guess a difference of opinion or perspective can be seen as a personal invalidation. But to me, that thinking is from the realm of domination, not the realm of dominion.

The greatest thing about dominion for me is that it completely insulates me from being manipulated or controlled by anyone else through a need for their approval or validation.

In true dominion, we have validated ourselves. So, we can claim dominion all night and day, but as long as we are demanding or manipulating for validation we are just blowing smoke.

Dominion, like manipulation and pregnancy either are, or are not. All the assertion, denial, avoidance and rationalization in the world will not make any of those be or not be. They stand on their own as uncontrovertible conditions.

Ok, blah, blah.

Does anyone else have any opinions about what I'm saying?

Katie

Thanks for the response. No, I am not "afraid it is "negative" and thus aprehensive about getting too far into the truth for fear it will make you "negative"." Quite honestly, when I first saw the topic, I misinterpreted the intent. Given what you said, which is to find the truth, I hope you are successful and that those who have a meaningful comment will post whatever defense they feel appropriate.

I do not believe that the nature of this forum is such that the truth will be discovered here. In my experience, searches for the truth require a disciplined and organized approach. I cite the scientific method and the methods of courts of inquiry as two instance examples. The constitution of this site, having no rules, seems to run counter to my examples.

So, I wish you much success in your efforts to uncover the truth and hope that the efforts result in discovery, proving my predisposition incorrect and providing a new experience from which I can learn.

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Quite honestly, when I first saw the topic, I misinterpreted the intent

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Thanks Chuck, for clearing up that up.

Quite honestly, I wish you had just come right out and said what you thought the intent was or what you didn’t like about it

What did you think the intent of the thread was?

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. Given what you said, which is to find the truth, I hope you are successful and that those who have a meaningful comment will post whatever defense they feel appropriate.

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The stated and actual intent of the thread was not hidden.

My intent in starting the thread was to get other people’s thoughts about why [with all of the credibility/abuse issues] it is worth expending effort to defend Lazaris ?

That is still the intent and the question, as far as I am concerned.

My overall intent in participating on this board is to find the truth as it relates to the facts of the abuses or blessings Concept Synergy has perpetrated in the name of Lazaris.

So far the tales of abuse are legion, the tales of blessings are few.

If investigation vindicates them, Concept Synergy and Lazaris, so be it.

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I do not believe that the nature of this forum is such that the truth will be discovered here. In my experience, searches for the truth require a disciplined and organized approach. I cite the scientific method and the methods of courts of inquiry as two instance examples. The constitution of this site, having no rules, seems to run counter to my examples.

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Chuck, you cannot prove that Lazaris exists using scientific methods of inquiry so you certainly will not be able to disprove his existance with them.

I am not talking about uncovering the truth regarding whether or not Lazaris is an entity independant from Jach.

That simply, will never be proven.

Arguments exist on both sides that can convince.

Nothing along those lines will ever be proven.

Even if Jach said he was a fraud from day one, some people will dismiss it thinking he is in negative ego [g]

What I do think is useful is to hear people's experiences and put the pieces of the puzzle together that way.

How does it affect a person who works with Lazaris for instance to know that Lazaris participated in MLM scams with Lazaris cooperation?

How does it feel to know that Lazaris watched while people were brutalized by Peny in HIS forum.

How does it feel to know that Lazaris who piped right up and Princess Diana's death hasn't had a word to say about Peny's almost a month later?

How does it feel to know that Concept Synergy is "spinning" Michaell North's suicide as a courageous act.

How does it feel to take all those facts and try to justify them and to what end?

Why?

That is not a rhetorical question.

I want to know what motivates people to defend the perpertrators of these actions.

Is there such overwhelming value inherent in the material that it is enough to justify swallowing all of that and much more?

I really want to know what people think about that.

Jeremiah

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I have noticed that those who defend Lazaris are strangely silent when there are actual personal attacks made by those of similar perspective against those of differing ones. Have you noticed that?

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I have noticed it and it pisses me off.

Fingerprince opened part 4 of that "many eyes" thread with a scathing denunciation that NONE of his defenders chose to address.

Probably, they felt it was a justified attack because he had so completely convinced them of his persecuted maverick truth teller status.

Bullshit.

If people bought into his victim routine they do so at their own expense.

He was treated in the most welcoming manner upon his arrival and only through repeated manipulative tactics did he wear that welcome thin.

Look the way I feel about it those people that were suckered by him can have him and all the attendant bullshit that comes with not being able to identify the basest forms of interpersonal manipulation.

But I would welcome some insight as to why there was no objection to his scathing and repeated attacks. I guess that his fans see his cause to be a noble one. Well, they can have him and the cause.

But lest this whole thing become just another largely irrelevant rant on a message board somewhere in cyberspace, I think it is very interesting to see that this is symptomatic of the desperate need to defend Lazaris.

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I have been called every name from here to Sunday, and been accused of every kind of rotten behavior yet I don't recall one time that any Lazaris defender has provided me with any "support" in those cases.

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Interesting isn't it? I wonder about the agenda? Do they think you deserve it and people like FP who defend Lazaris however ineptly and with virtually no grasp of what Lazaris talked about?

I would like to know why you deserve it according to those who have spent such energy encouraging a "safe" atmosphere.

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It's ok, I'm not looking for that kind of support, but it is interesting for me to note the seeming paradox of ethics. It's as though there is a sense that those of same thought should be defended, and those of differing opinion are the enemy so the same rules do not apply.

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I agree and I think it is because people are really frightened they are going to loose their spirituality if Lazaris is questioned. Nothing could be farther from the truth of course, but that is my guess as to why.

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I wonder if it has occurred to my critics to notice that I manage to function just fine in the face of not only dissent, but character assassination and the most vile of insults.

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Maybe that is part of it. You aren't playing that game. And by not playing it you
weaken the arguement of those who would insist that it is the only game to play.

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The only way I know to counter these dangers is to allow for an open dialogue about them. This fear of expression, and attempt to manipulate and control free expression are more scary to me than any thought, opinion, or idea could ever be.

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I wonder if some people writing in defense of Lazaris interpret disagreement with a lack of support. I wonder if they feel they are owed agreement.

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One thing I learned about the concept of dominion is that when you are in it, you know that no one can take your power. It is the only ironclad defense we have against the control tactics of others, physical, mental, emotional, or spiritual.

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Agreed.

You wrote:

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I do not believe that the nature of this forum is such that the truth will be discovered here. In my experience, searches for the truth require a disciplined and organized approach.

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No one is stopping you from taking a disciplined and organized, or any other kind of approach here. That's what freedom means - we can all take whatever approach we want. Freedom has never stood in the way of Truth - quite the contrary.

You wrote:

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I cite the scientific method and the methods of courts of inquiry as two instance examples. The constitution of this site, having no rules, seems to run counter to my examples.

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The scientific method is used in a search for facts, not for Truth. Freedom allows for facts and Truth. What rules would help you make your case? Should we limit our responses to our left brains? Should we accept the premises that you put forth in your scenario? Should the scientific method be our god or our servant?

Gee, Ted. I was expressing and opinion (I do not believe) based on my experience (In my experience) and wished the best (I wish you much success in your efforts to uncover the truth and hope that the efforts discovery) because the search was trying a different approach that I hoped would work, showing me something new (proving my predisposition incorrect and providing a new experience from which I can learn).

While we have differences of opinion about the nature of the scientific method and its relevance to the topic, I don't see a need to delve into those differences as they are moot as far as I am concerned given the nature of this thread and the loud an clear message that there are no rules here. I have no issue with no rules and given what has been stated numerous times (I have uncovered some of those messages) I am not particularly interested in trying to make a case for rules so that this search will conform to my sense of reality as I know it.

Good questions, let's see if my answers encourage or discourage you.

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Anyone have a good reason to expend energy defending Lazaris when there are so many other less questionable sources of metaphysical/spiritual insight?

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No. There is no reason to defend Lazaris per se. Whether he exists is, as you pointed out, unanswerable. Whether he is truthful is a relevant question for those interested in L. If there is no interest in L, then no need to pursue the question.

I would be willing to defend his truthfulness if we could agree on what to defend. Peny? Anything having to do with P could be an opinion, I won't defend opinions, especially those I don't agree with. The only thing I have seen people question concerning truthfulness in the material here has been on hypnosis. However, L's deceit became a matter of definition. L said he would never hypnotize anyone. L's meditations were defined as hypnosis by his detractors, thus L lies. Unfortunately on the hypnosis discussions, no definition of hypnosis was ever offered by those unhappy with L. Chris' definitions were never discussed, much less refuted. If there is any other material where truthfulness is a question, let's look at it.

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How does it affect a person who works with Lazaris for instance to know that Lazaris participated in MLM scams with Lazaris cooperation?

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It would disturb me. Do you have evidence that Tradevest was promoted by L rather than C:S? If you believe it to be true, I won't dispute it. All I can say is that unless I actually heard L promoting an MLM, I would not take a position on it. If I were convinced he had done it, it would be proof to me that L is indeed a fraud. The material however would continue to stand on its own.

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How does it feel to know that Lazaris watched while people were brutalized by Peny in HIS forum.

How does it feel to know that Concept Synergy is "spinning" Michaell North's suicide as a courageous act.

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C:S stuff. Again, it's disturbing that the messengers would be so flawed. You may believe such actions imply L's approval, I do not. Who knows how connected he is with what goes on here? Why should we assume he's going to watch over everyone's actions who speak in his name and issue his judgements when he doesn't approve? L never set himself up as judge. Why should we?

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How does it feel to know that Lazaris who piped right up and Princess Diana's death hasn't had a word to say about Peny's almost a month later?

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Good point! He should say something. I'm beginning to wonder if L has left the building. Which, if he has, would of course greatly bolster the fraud argument. Again, it wouldn't alter my opinion of the material we have already. Whoever produced it, it's good stuff.

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How does it feel to take all those facts and try to justify them and to what end? Why?

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The only thing that needs justifying are the materials themselves. Whatever people believe about C:S, P, L's existence, L's relationship to P, so what? But is he justified when he describes spirituality as being x, y, z… ? Does that mean anything to you? If not, fine. Look for spirituality somewhere else. He doesn't force people to believe him, he doesn't coerce them. Whatever complaint you have with C:S practices for promoting L, selling L, etc, I will not dispute. For me, the only thing that really matters is, are his words on the issues that have meaning to me of any value? Indeed they are.

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I want to know what motivates people to defend the perpertrators of these actions.

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Is there such overwhelming value inherent in the material that it is enough to justify swallowing all of that and much more?

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As I said, the material stands on its own. If Hitler had spoken it, it would be valuable. Why does a flawed source invalidate the material? Tell me where the material coerces, promotes manipulation, encourages greed or hatred, separates people, disavows other sources, creates dogma, diminishes free will, appeals to our lower instincts, dismisses our own abilities or in any way leads us astray? Why aren't these the things non-believers concentrate on? Because they're not there! They continue to hammer C:S and will get no argument from me. If they insist that spirituality can be found elsewhere, I wouldn't disagree. If they say they need no "friends," that they are their own source and need no help to create all the magic in their lives, I applaud them. It does not diminish one iota what is there for others if they care to look at this particular source.

I understand (or at least can imagine) the anger, pain and betrayal felt by those who suffered through the abuse of the C:S gatekeepers. I also understand why L is thrown in with the bunch and good riddance. Perhaps they have indeed gotten all that is there for them from that particular source. If so, it's time to move on anyway, if not, they'll find what they need somewhere else. At some point I hope there are those interested in getting past the demonization of L and discussing spirituality in their present lives. I would like to initiate that discussion myself when I am better prepared.

Hope my answers were of some interest to you, Jeremiah, I am interested in your feedback, particularly if you think I'm way off base, and why that is.

I read your latest post to Jeremiah, what I see again in this post is what I'm seeing expressed more and more on this thread and others, so I'd like to comment briefly.

It all seems to boil down to an overall belief, and the various other belief systems based upon the central one which is: Lazaris is truly an otherworldly being, who speaks the truth..etc..

I appreciate this, and can empathize because I was in that place myself, feels like so long ago, but I was there.

Please don't think I am dismissing you, and those with your beliefs, as "poor souls, still under the ether"

BUT, at the end of the day that is what I see here, not much more than a back and forth of you, and others unable to face what I and others see as cold hard facts that wrong was done, in the name of good etc.

There is nothing more to say about it, I'm aware of the processes of freeing onself from a cult, and cult belief systems, and know that at various times in the future everyone( or most everyone) WILL come to a similar realization about Jach/L. that I have.

I appreciate the pain for all involved in that process.

There has been MUCH discussion here about the value and merits of the Lazaris material.

On a recent thread there is a discussion about the Lazaris teachings on freedom and responsibility, for example.

Since pretty much the beginning those of us who have found the materials to be a crashing failure have been asking for some
evidence that they deliver what they promise..stellar successes far and beyond our wildest imagination.

Surely, you could not have missed those posts, if I'm not mistaken you participated in the most recent one.

Instead of continuing to insist there has been no discussion or argument regarding the Lazaris materials themselves, why don't you provide us with some form of substantiation for your claim that the Lazaris materials stand on their own as usable, valuable, and accurate teachings which should be embraced inspite of the cult environment they have engendered?

Would you share with us the details of the world shattering successes which you have achieved as a result of using the Lazaris materials.

It doesn't seem to me that that should be such a difficult question for any Lazaris supporter to answer, yet to date we have received only one report from an anonymous source claiming a healing from HIV.

That is fine, but standing all alone on it's very shaky legs, it still does not provide any proof that the Lazaris materials are of any benefit whatsoever.

Nor does it prove anything that every so often Lazaris "knows someone's name".

If Lazaris techniques can heal HIV or any serious illness, why after close to 30 years are there no clinical studies to support that?

Actually, the meditations were defined by Chris as hypnosis. And your right, none of the detractors refuted Chris on this point. The links that Katie posted also define hypnosis the same way.

Now I realize that Lazaris sometimes makes up their own meanings for words, such as "ego". But using one's own definition doesn't make one truthful. Bill Clinton wasn't being truthful when he claimed to not have had sex with Monica Lewinski, even though his definition of sex is different than most people's.

The majority of the Lazaris Material cannot be judged as fact or fiction. Who could prove one way or the other whether we are the result of Orion experimentation or that Atlantis or Lemuria existed as Lazaris claims? Who can prove even whether the tools and raw materials of reality creation are what Lazaris says they are?

The statements that Lazaris makes about where they are from, their purpose for being here, etc., are highly questionable. Provable? No. They claim to be consistant, but their health advice has changed over the years. They claim to not intervene - a convenient excuse for them allowing the crap that goes on in the Forum - but then they also claim to have sent Michaell to stay with Jach and Peny. (I don't remember the details, but someone posted about this here recently and I've seen it written in C:S literature)

The MLM situation has been well-documented on this site - and not just from katie and me. On the contrary, when Katie and I were told about this at the Millennium Celebration, we so much as accused the messenger of lying. We have heard about it from many different sources. Again, a search of this site will yield much data about this.

You say Lazaris doesn't watch over us and set themselves up as judge. Yet they judged Marilyn and tried to influence her daughter to distance herself.

As for Lazaris promoting the material and attempting to keep people hooked, that has been discussed in depth on this site. Everything that you claim we don't discuss has been discussed here.

You wrote:

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Why does a flawed source
invalidate the material?

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This has been discussed ad nauseum here and recently. So once more, no one is saying that everything that Lazaris says is wrong, simply because they say it. We are saying it is suspect. "The most dangerous lie is that which is closest to the truth". I have better things to do than to spend my life examining each of Lazaris' statements and trying to figure out, "is this a gem or another manipulation?" It's much more elegant to use an honest source. I'm sure Lazaris would agree.

I know I promised to be good and do more homework, and I will, but I have one point of consideration that is relevant, I think, and related to the principles on which I understand this site operates.

The fifth and sixth amendments (and maybe eighth) to the constitution.

These amendments relate to the processes and protections of an accused. Is it fair to suggest that the accusations against L or CS should not be afforded the same protection we are asserting with the rights of the first amendment protection? That is an open ended question not a directed one intended to stimulate discussion which if diversionary can be addressed as such.

Pondering,
Chuck

You wrote:

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It all seems to boil down to an overall belief, and the various other belief systems based upon the central one which is: Lazaris is truly an otherworldly being, who speaks the truth, etc..

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What would be of interest to me in the case of proven fraud is knowing how J did it. I consider the L material to be a work of genius. Beyond that, the flawless delivery, the sparkling sense of humor, the psychic ability, the empathy, the creativity (Lemuria, King Arthur, etc.), I mean, who is this man?

Katie,

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There has been MUCH discussion here about the value and merits of the Lazaris material.

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Maybe a little, not much. The freedom and responsibility thread seemed to focus on one quote which I couldn't tell if it was L's or J's. At any rate, it was a throwaway line, hardly worth the trashing it received.

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Would you share with us the details of the world shattering successes which you have achieved as a result of using the Lazaris materials?

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You seem to think the value of the material is the production of miracles. Despite L's overflowing language on magic and miracles, that was something I always discounted (probably why I never manifested, huh?). After all, what is a miracle? If you want to talk about miracles, define your terms. Was L referring to creating something out of nothing? A million dollars just appearing in my bank account? That wasn't my impression. If it was yours, then it's easy to say, look at all the failures. I do remember him commenting on a conversation he had (the self-respect tape I believe) with someone who said they wanted to be a magazine editor. Did they have any experience? No. But hey, they create their own reality, they have confidence, why couldn't they be a magazine editor if they wanted? L laughed. He called it delusion. All L's miracles are based on the building blocks. If you're stuck in self-pity, what's the use of a 33 second technique?

You mentioned healing. I believe it's possible but you're talking Jesus level here. To use it as a standard for measuring the value of L seems a bit excessive. Even the disciples never (?) manifested like that.

That said, the techniques were not something that attracted me to L. Creating wonderful successes wasn't my thing. It was the emotions. Self-pity, what is it, why do we do it, what do we get with it, what do we lose from it. Loneliness, what is it, why are we afraid of it, how does it run our lives, how do we get past it? Intimacy, what is it, why is it so compelling, so scary? Diving into these and others creates a tremendous awareness of the inner life, the possibility of understanding that life, shaping it and creating something meaningful beyond the haphazard one a majority of people wind up living.

Have I done so with my own life? I'm sure you would call me a failure. I make no claims of any special ability to integrate all L's ideas and teachings. Yet things have changed a great deal for me since I first came in contact with him. Do I attribute it all to him? No. So what? He's a friend, not the Pied Piper. He has helped me become more aware. If that's not benefit enough for you, I can't dispute that. I can only ask, what were you looking for, was your expectation justified, was the fact that you didn't attain it the responsibility of L?

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Instead of continuing to insist there has been no discussion or argument regarding the Lazaris materials themselves, why don't you provide us with some form of substantiation for your claim that the Lazaris materials stand on their own as usable, valuable, and accurate teachings which should be embraced in spite of the cult environment they have engendered?

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This is an excellent suggestion (not that I hadn't thought of it). I do want to start a spirituality thread. After all, it seems we all have some interest in the subject or we wouldn't have been attracted to L in the first place (I hope. Maybe some just wanted that million bucks!). What is spirituality for us? Does L's definition have any relevance (I have a couple transcripts if people need some reference)? How are we manifesting it? Why aren't we manifesting it? What do we expect from it, what do we fear? Many questions I would like to pose. Let me think about it some more and how I want to frame all this and how much I want to hang it on L. He could be a starting point but I'm sure we would eventually leave him far behind.

I hope these comments have some relevance for you.

You end your post with "I hope this has some relevance for you"

Oh Gawd, you had to go there about mentioning the Arthurian Legends crap, as if THAT is impressive..!!!

I was just gonna read this, and not comment anymore....
BUT....ARTHURIAN LEGENDS!!!!!

GIVE ME A BREAK...Katie coulda seen this coming eh??

I used to rant to Ted and her about how ridiculous that crap was WHEN I WAS STILL UNDER THE ETHER!!!

BUT ,...NOW..Oh..Puleezze...

I can have a field day with that one...but it will be an excersize in futility..as you and I are on such different wavelengths..

You think Jach is a genius,!!! or whatever it is that is delivering these pearls o' wisdom...

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Originally posted by Audrey:
Hi Ted C,

...ARTHURIAN LEGENDS!!!!!
GIVE ME A BREAK.......sheesh...

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Ha! What is creativity? Just telling a story. You don't have to like all his stories, but he did tell a lot of them, and some of them were quite intricate. I don't
think it's fair to say there was nothing to any of them.

Wont have much time the next couple of days to post so I wanted to let you know I probably wont get around to answering your post til sometime next week.

You wrote:

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Actually, the meditations were defined by Chris as hypnosis. And you're right, none of the detractors refuted Chris on this point. The links that Katie posted also define hypnosis the same way.

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Chris never argued that L was being deceptive. His point was that any trance state could be called hypnosis, not that the trance state Lazaris was inducing was a form of mind control, the point of the detractors.

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The MLM situation has been well-documented on this site.

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You say Lazaris doesn't watch over us and set themselves up as judge. Yet they judged Marilyn and tried to influence her daughter to distance herself.

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It's much more elegant to use an honest source.

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I appreciated your comments and willingness to go over old ground, thanks.

TedC

The principles upon which this site operate would be the combined principles of all those who contribute. No one has set up any guidelines for principles here. That any individual might state their own does not in any way make that an edict.

I see once again in your post a defense of the idea that there are reasons that we should not be discussing or criticizing Lazaris here. This most recent argument is based on your idea that this site operates on Constitutional law, which is false, it does not, it operates on the laws each of us makes for ourselves and no others. There are no police here to enforce any laws other than the ones stated. Ted and I will enforce those.

One of MY principle's is a belief in freedom of expression. I can't enforce that on anyone, but I can respond to any attempts, overt or covert to restrict that.

If you think it is a bad thing to criticize Lazaris, my suggestion to you is that you not do it.

Any suggestions from you or anyone else that I should not do it will fall on deaf ears. There is no reason that could be provided which would sway me from my belief in freedom of speech and expression, or from my passion for supporting it.

Please, please, do not attempt to claim that it is not your intention to manipulate the conversation away from a critique of the Lazaris materials. I think you have made it abundantly clear that it is your desire, and no amount of mental gymnastics and esoteric mind bending hypothesizing will change the message in your words.

Getting back to the Constitution, I believe that the only Constitutional law violations relevant to this site have been committed by Jach Pursel through his continued use of psychological coercion tactics to manipulate control people's minds.

The illogical, irrational, senseless, and unethical behaviors and arguments which are constantly posted here in his or Lazaris' defense are proof positive to me of that.

I do not believe that anyone was ever drawn to the Lazaris materials who was not seeking to be a better and smarter person. Yet, I have seen endless evidence of people operating from places of indiscrimination and low to zero ethics while the whole time defending the tremendous value of the materials.

What I would like to see from Lazaris defenders is a fair and specific analysis of the materials and how they work for those who support them, not a bunch of vague statements about how wonderful and effective they are.

I would like to start that discussion with the concept of manipulation. Lazaris has spoken at great length on that topic, both defining and explaining the consequences of it.

I have seen no evidence here that would indicate to me that our resident Lazaris supporters have even a cursory understanding of the Lazaris teachings on that.

If this is what Jachzaris has wrought in his most faithful and devoted followers, and I have seen no evidence anywhere that it is not, then I am compelled to not only question the value of the material, but to speak out loudly against it.

When one verifiable magician of great insight, wisdom, compassion, and integrity who has achieved one mind shattering success arrives to support the Lazaris materials, or made an indisputable contribution to society, I might consider singing a different tune.

So, do as you wish, present what arguments you choose, and use whatever tactics you desire, but I have just stated my area of interest should anyone feel moved to respond.

I am not the boss of this site though, so feel free to disregard or accept my comments as you would those of anyone else's.

Katie

I didn't say that Chris said that Lazaris was deceptive. I said that he said that the "meditations" were hypnosis. No, he didn't say it was mind control. Whether you believe it's mind control or not, if it was hypnosis, then Lazaris was lying. Chris' definition of hypnosis is in sync with the hypnosis pages to which Katie linked. So, if it's hypnosis by the definition of professional hypnotists, I think we can agree that it's hypnosis by fact, not opinion.

I have to just come out and say this. The more I read your posts and our logs, the more convinced I become that you are in fact Chris posting under another name.

Now, of course in saying that, I expose myself to ten universes full of indignation, but so be it. I feel compelled to speak what is on my mind. I'll just take the heat.

You are so well versed on the topic of "Chris", so unversed on every other topic, so hell bent on "supporting" Chris, so exactly alike in your thinking as Chris, so precise in your posting rhythms as Chris, that I have no choice but to notice.

I saw you come onto the site, three full minutes before you posted the first time, and never read a word anywhere, yet you are intimately familiar with the opinions of Chris and every argument that was made about Chris' perspectives which are identical to yours.

All I can say is if you are Chris, as I believe you are, you have so eroded your own credibility that I hope even you get how repugnant, manipulative, and unspiritual it is to play such a game with us.

If you are not, as you claim, Chris, then possibly you should take him on as your new teacher and mentor. He is in the market for students. I am providing him now in saying so with free and authorized advertising for his services.

I can highly recommend Chris as a verifiable source of information. I'll leave you to evaluate the helpfulness and veracity of it, but he does exist, so right there we have an improvement over Lazaris, since we have all agreed that we cannot prove or disprove his existance. Come to think of it, so could
you prove your own, which at this point, I wouldn't mind having you do.

But you don't even have to respond. I'm just telling you my thoughts on this.

As to your desire to open a thread on the topic of spirituality, whoever you are, I support and applaud your decision. Go for it.

When you do, I will be there myself, and the topic I will introduce will be the the Lazaris teachings on manipulation. I think it's about time that we got down and dirty and get right to it. Do you, as a staunch and devoted defender and supporter of the Lazaris materials know what he teaches on the topic of manipulation?

I think we should have a pop quiz. Maybe you should be the one to create and score it.
I would be most interested to see how you do.

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Originally posted by Katie:
The principles upon which this site operate would be the combined principles of all those who contribute. No one has set up any guidelines for principles here. That any individual might state their own does not in any way make that an edict.

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I did not fully appreciate that all the freedom of speech, belief and expression statements that have been made were personal opinions of the expressor, and were not underlying principles of the site. I understand now, thank you.

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Originally posted by Katie:
I see once again in your post a defense of the idea that there are reasons that we should not be discussing or criticizing Lazaris here. This most recent argument is based on your idea that this site operates on Constitutional law, which is false, it does not, it operates on the laws each of us makes for ourselves and no others.

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I will try to clarify. I was not suggesting that this site does or should operate based on Constitutional Law. I was trying to postulate an answer to Jeremiah's stated intent which was:

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Originally posted by Jeremiah:
My intent in starting the thread was to get other people’s thoughts about why [with all of the credibility/abuse issues] it is worth expending effort to defend Lazaris ?
...
I want to know what motivates people to defend the perpertrators of these actions.

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My response to that given the immediately previous exchange, is that I believe it is worth the effort to defend Lazaris because I believe that everyone is entitled to a defense, as articulated and defined by the Bill of Rights found in the Constitution and as expanded upon by subsequent Constitutional Law. As for the "a defense of the idea that there are reasons that we should not be discussing or criticizing Lazaris here", I did not mean to send that message and if sent, I immediately retract it. There is much value to be gleaned from an open discussion of the material with full critique. Based on your post to TedC (There has been MUCH discussion here about the value and merits of the Lazaris material), this discussion has already taken place in large part, so what continues seems to be a series of more focused analyses should others pick up on your thoughts regarding manipulation ("I would like to start that discussion with the concept of manipulation. Lazaris has spoken at great length on that topic, both defining and explaining the consequences of it").

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Originally posted by Katie:
Please, please, do not attempt to claim that it is not your intention to manipulate the conversation away from a critique of the Lazaris materials. I think you have made it abundantly clear that it is your desire, and no amount of mental gymnastics and esoteric mind bending hypothesizing will change the message in your words.

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We will have to disagree on my understanding and so stated intentions and your perception of them.

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Originally posted by Katie:
What I would like to see from Lazaris defenders is a fair and specific analysis of the materials and how they work for those who support them, not a bunch of vague statements about how wonderful and effective they are.

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I too would like to see this. I have a vague recollection of hearing L discourage disclosure of the kind of specificity which would be entailed in the above. From what I remember of that recollection, the rationale seemed reasonable. In light of what I have learned here, the reasonableness of the rationale is a bit more suspicious. Since the recollection is only vague, I cannot state for certain that I have the right attribution to source.

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Originally posted by Katie:
I would like to start that discussion with the concept of manipulation. Lazaris has spoken at great length on that topic, both defining and explaining the consequences of it.

I have seen no evidence here that would indicate to me that our resident Lazaris supporters have even a cursory understanding of the Lazaris teachings on that.

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Since I seem to be included in the "Lazaris supporter" category, and since I have no "cursory understanding of the Lazaris teachings on that", I cannot provide evidence which would illuminate a different perspective than the one you have expressed. Nor am I inclined to attempt to delve into the topic as it is not a high priority focus area for me at this time. I hope there are others who can and will engage in this subject with you.

I will answer some of your post now, the rest may have to wait.

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Good questions, let's see if my answers encourage or discourage you.

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Encourage me or discourage me to do/think/say/feel what?

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I would be willing to defend his truthfulness if we could agree on what to defend. Peny? Anything having to do with P could be an opinion, I won't defend opinions, especially those I don't agree with.

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Yet everything Lazaris says is his opinion about something.

You say you don't defend opinions.

Whether or not you agree with anothers opinions, the opinions an individual holds can give you all kinds of information about the person.

What kind of values they have, the criteria they evaluate people and events with. Their beliefs about themselves.

For instance say a person becomes a Republican because his father was a Republican.

For the sake of this example say that you disagree with Republican politics.

Even though you disagree with the political opinions that Republicans hold you form an opinion about this individual based on the knowledge of how they came to their Repulicanism

What does Lazaris opinion about Peny tell you about Lazaris. Regardless of whether or not you agree with his opinions on Peny, what do those opinions tell you about Lazaris?

That he made a mistake? Fine. We all make mistakes.

There are mistakes and then there are mistakes.

Befriending someone thinking they are one type of person and then concluding they are another is one type of mistake.

BUT AFTER 30 YEARS of watching her rant and rave Lazaris still didn't get it.

What does the fact that in a near 30 year relationship Lazaris never was able see her for what she was,no matter what she said or did.

What does that tell you about Lazaris?

Are you telling me that you deliberately blind yourself to that kind of evaluation and information?

As an aside:

Lazaris states that all beliefs are opinions and you might as well pick the ones that work. Seth also says that [before Lazaris said it I might add]

Will try to get to the rest of you points later.

Jeremiah

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I can say this with confidence as I believe that your disrespect toward me isn't grounded in anything personal. I feel that because of my opinions, I represent Lazaris and this doesn't permit you to maintain objectivity. Thus you attack.

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That's exactly my problem with your posts Chris, you state a lot of inaccuracies with confidence. This is just one more of them.

Thinking that you and TedC are the same person has nothing to do with liking you or not liking you. It is an observation I've made, and as you know, I am not the only thinking along these lines.

Who is doing the attacking here?

And, once again, what are your credentials to psychoanalyze me and state my motives?

This is your problem Chris, that you cannot hear a reasoned argument against your beliefs without taking it as a personal attack. Neither can TedC by the way.

Here's the thing Chris, I can function just fine within my own beliefs without the need for you or anyone to agree with me. I wish you could do the same.

That you call it manipulation, no matter how subtle, that I choose to take you on, not for your belief in Lazaris, but for your opinions about yourself that you have some right to delve into the minds and souls of others, is just one more indication that you don't know the meaning of manipulation.

I'm looking for that discussion here, so why don't you start it, now that you have accused me of it, by illustrating exactly how I have manipulated this message board. Not vaguaries, specifics please.

Let's start with you defining manipulation, and then you can provide examples of where and how I have manipulated you, the board, or anyone.

I have nowhere to hide Chris, my words are right here, uncut and uncensored.

I would very much welcome the revelation, because it would serve two purposes, the first being that it would give me the opportunity to apologize, and the second being that it would illustrate once and for all that you know the meaning of the concept.

I promise you this. Should you follow through on my suggestion, I will not in any way claim that you are attacking me by doing so, as long as you stick to the words I have written, and leave your psychoanalytical talents out of it.

I will welcome the opportunity to correct myself. That, as I understand it, is the way we grow and show responsibility for each other.

But, you already know that, you're writing the book, not me.

There is every possibility that you are correct, that somewhere, sometime, I resorted to manipulative behavior to get my point across. I am not perfect, and don't claim to be. I am, however more than willing to face up to any mistakes I have made and be responsible for them.

So, strut your stuff, Mr. Teacher of Mankind, Mr. Guaranteed Freedom from Anxiety.

I await your illumination.

It's time to put your money where your mouth is.

Katie

Reguretrating old English Mythology does not a good story teller make, nor does it make a "work of genius"(your words)...

Especially on top of it that Jach and Con;sin charges lots of money to "learn" the magic from THEIR translation/ rendition of these old tales..
You stated rhetorically about Jach "WHO IS THIS GUY?"
I'll tell you who he is....
A greedy s.o.b.
ANDDDDD..he's got the nerve to charge $$$$$$over and over again....gee, how much magic is in that old tale???? and why have so many over the centuries not been able to get that magic till Jach came along with his rendition of it..

Guess what...People DID get magic from it... no-one needed Jach's version, ONLY those under the influence of CULT mentality do, and AGAIN, I REPEAT,,, I am sorry for your pain and suffering under that influence... I have been there too..

But let me go on..., you mention Lemuria, perhaps it is cuz I'm fortunate enough to be a native Californian, been to Mt. Shasta,(you know Lemurians live THERE) been exposed to much woo-woo metaphysics, new-age stuff over the years,***PUULEEEZE.......Where have YOU been all these years..??? sheesh,teachings from Atlanis/ Lemuria have been OUT for AGES...even DONOVAN wrote a song in the 60's about it..????

**AGAIN, those tapes/seminars are nothing more than reguritated compellations, even Shrley MacLaine has done quite a good job on the Lemurian and Atlantean subjects.

I have 2 acres of land I'd consider selling very resonable price) at the foot of Mt. Shasta, you can watch Lemurians coming and going, and the ordinary people who live in that town are very OPEN to lots of new teachers and metaphysicians from all corners of UNREALITY...
There are many crystal vendors there, you can FEEL the energy..
Perhaps you'd be interested to take up residence there, to de-stimulate, and get free again...

AND,...think of the money you'd save not buying into the over-packaged purple plastic crap con:sin sells....

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Originally posted by TedV:
Hi TedC,

I didn't say that Chris said that Lazaris was deceptive. I said that he said that the "meditations" were hypnosis. No, he didn't say it was mind control. Whether you believe it's mind control or not, if it was hypnosis, then Lazaris was lying. Chris' definition of hypnosis is in sync with the hypnosis pages to which Katie linked. So, if it's hypnosis by the definition of professional hypnotists, I think we can agree that it's hypnosis by fact, not opinion.

Cheers, Ted

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Ted,

My point is that this is an argument by definition. If any trance state can be equated to hypnosis and L said he would never hypnotize, he is lying by definition. It is not meaningful for me to dispute that, nor is it meaningful to assert it, it is merely defining L as a liar. What is meaningful is to assert there is a difference between guided meditation and hypnosis and delineate what those differences might be, which was Chris' whole argument (and completely missed by those who disputed him). L obviously made a distinction, why else promise not to do something and then do it a million times?

You wrote:

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I have to just come out and say this. The more I read your posts and our logs, the more convinced I become that you are in fact Chris posting under another name.

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You do seem to have a thing about me and Chris. You use this as an excuse to ignore my entire post to you. Manipulation? I will let others draw their own conclusions.

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… the topic I will introduce will be the Lazaris teachings on manipulation. I think it's about time that we got down and dirty and get right to it. Do you, as a staunch and devoted defender and supporter of the Lazaris materials know what he teaches on the topic of manipulation?

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I think we should have a pop quiz. Maybe you should be the one to create and score it. I would be most interested to see how you do.

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Originally posted by dreamspring:

TedC if you’re interested, I'll be happy to accept you as my first brainwashed, cultist pupil at my earliest convenience. Keep in mind that you will be expected to hand over all personal possessions, leave your family, wear sack cloth and ashes and devote all your efforts to my personal aggrandizement while I parcel out crumbs of wisdom that leave you longing for more.

And if you ever get out of line, I'll be preparing some delicious Kool-Aid a la my friend Jim Jones (he was sooo misunderstood).

My Oh My, I have learned well from the master!!

(cut away to the sound of diabolical, soul chilling laughter and the screams of the lost)

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My master's words, how I long to hear them!!!

Have you ever thought of doing standup? This is off the scale!!!!!!!!!

TedC (known to Katie as Chris)

I don't know, if I was so avidly defending someone, I'd sure be embarrassed to admit that I haven't even a cursory familiarity with their philosophy, especially an aspect of it as significant and pervasive throughout as the topic of manipulation is within the Lazaris material.

It's kinda like saying you love Mozart but you can't recall much about his music.

What parts of the Lazaris material are you familiar with? Is there any topic you'd like to discuss? Let's take this discussion out of the realm of the vague and get a bit more specific. There is something in the materials that compels you to defend them, what is it specifically?

Katie

Let's go...I want to be in the VORTEX!!

I heard about all those people living under Mt. Shasta. They sent their queen or princess here to help us all out. I swear to God!!

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Princess Sharula and Shield Dux. Princess Sharula Aurora -Ambassador of the Earth's network of suhterranean cities. The crown princess of Telos (the Lemurian outpost city of over a million and a half inhabitants) she represents the link between the surface and underground societies. A Melchizedek Priestess of the Lemurian Temple, she shares rare and invaluable insights into the human condition. In keeping with their belief system of agelessness, Princess Sharula is over 268 years of age. Working by her side to bring personal and planetary transformation is her husband Shield Dux. Together, via books, seminars and global activations, they share a powerful and loving message of freedom that has inspired thousands world wide.

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http://www.worldtrans.org/spir/1212.html

Check out the site! See if you recognize the name of the Director of the World Ascension Network, I think you might. We are connected baby!!!

I wanna meet her Aud, and I want to hang out in the VORTEX with those cute Lemurians!!!

Please, please, can we go? Please????
Can I take my crystal skulls???? Lazaris is mad at me and won't charge them up for me anymore!!!

Katie

Now it's really time to stop the presses!!!

This just in!!

Princess Diana speaks about Lemuria!!!

Don't miss this one kids!!

http://princess-diana.cx/cvd_ext_intro_b.html