Part of my process of figuring out this Con:Sin puzzle has been reading reading cult information. My initial interest in cults and mind control had nothing to do with Con:Sin initially, I was interested for other reasons.

I found while studying up on cult tactics and mind control techniques that much of what I was reading applied to Con:Sin. It was a shocking process of realization for me, but once I got going, I couldn't stop.

I'm providing a link to one of Steve Hassan's Freedom of Mind pages which links to information on a large number of groups and organizations which are alleged to be cults or destructive mind control groups, in light of Nancy's post today mentioning Sai Baba. It's really good to know all sides of the story on these groups, gurus and leaders.

http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups.htm

Steve does not claim that they all are cults, but simply that there is evidence that they are. It's a very interesting read.
Many of the stories and articles are all too familiar. The scenery is different, but the stories are all the same, the tactics used, the impact they have on people repeat themselves over and over. Even AA is listed.

My favorite link is to a cult busting website for Elan Vital, the group formed by Guru Maharaji back in the 70's. I had a lot of friends who were in that group so I was interested.

I found the site to be very emotionally gratifying read in it's irreverance toward this most special of beings whom I had seen worshipped as a God. Reading there and empathizing with the irreverance and exhilerated sense of freedom of the posters is what inspired this site.

I wrote to the webmaster and asked him how his participation had impacted him, because I was concerned about me and Ted, and how hosting a similar site might impact us.

The man was very lovely and helpful, he told me that for two years the site was a constant occupation for him, that he had met wonderful people, including his new wife there, and that it was a very healing experience for him.

He was, however, at that moment looking for someone else to take over as webmaster, because he was more than ready to move on.

He said that his process was finished, and that he now never cared to hear another word about Guru Maharaji, or Elan Vital.

That sealed it for me. I felt inspired and relieved to know that this man knew when it was time to go, time to move on, and that the experience had been a healing and positive part of his process of growing.

I look forward to that day myself. So far, I'm not ready, but it is part of our plan, mine and Ted's that one day we will no longer feel any interest in this ongoing discussion. When the time comes for each of us, we will hand this site over, or leave it for posterity.

I have told this story before, but wanted to share it for new readers who may wonder what inspires me and Ted to host this site, and what our long term intentions are. They are not to be here 10 years from now, still discussing whether or not Lazaris is real.

Readers and posters come and go here, and I celebrate that. When it gets quiet in here, that to me is a good good sign, a sign that people are comfortably moving on, and that is my greatest hope for all of us.

In the meantime, I'm having a blast knowing you all.

I do hope that some of you will be interested in reading up on cults and familiarizing yourselves with the information on other groups which is out there. It's sometimes easier to recognize ourselves through the stories of others.

Also, Steve has a questionaire which is used to evaluate groups to be added to the list.

I would really like to see this site linked from other cult awareness sites.

I did fill out the form awhile ago, but for some reason Steve's webmaster doesn't recall receiving it.

Steve and I are not the best of buddies at this time, and Con:Sin isn't on anyone at freedom of minds hit list like the Scientologists and bigger cults are.

I have my suspicions about why that is, probably the reason that Steve and I aren't too thrilled with each other. I don't have a whole lot of respect for the way Steve conducts his own business, his message board is an inspiration to me on how NOT to run a board, but I do have a lot of respect for the work he is doing, and the information he has made available.

So, if anyone (Wayne?) is feeling a desire to take some kind of positive action about Con:Sin, I think it would be great to see our site and any other input listed on other cult awareness sites.

Also, filling out Steve's questionaire is a very interesting exercise, even if you don't choose to submit it, it's quite useful as an educational private processing.

The questionare can be found at:

http://www.freedomofmind.com/submitinfo.htm

Thanks!

Katie

I have been reading the stuff about Sathya Sai Baba and it is very eye-opening. I am amazed at the very strong similarities between him and Lazaris. In both cases their followers seem to be finding out that they are frauds and are having to deal with the shock and confusion from that.

A difference between the two is that many of Sai Baba's followers considered him to BE God (and many devoted their lives to him), while Lazaris's followers just saw him as an enlightened and highly evolved being.

Also, I think it can be safely said that Sai Baba has caused much more destruction than Lazaris, since he is accused sexually abusing young boys and men.

I'd like to share a few quotes I came across while reading. They sound very similar to thoughts that have been expressed in this forum.

Regarding whether Sai Baba is "real":

quote:

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From other devotees, however, the response has been one of disbelief and denial. 'Sai Baba', says Bailey, 'is a simple sex maniac who's on an ego trip, after money, after power. He is a sheer conman.' No, say others, 'Sai Baba is God.'

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Getting rid of stuff after being disillusioned:

quote:

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Meloy said he shredded all the pictures he had of Sai Baba in his house the moment he heard the allegations. He knew of former devotees who were now selling their homes, determined to purge any taint of association with Sai Baba from their lives. 'We completely gave away our power.

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I thought this next one was very interesting. It reminds me of a story Lazaris told about a woman who had an accident in her car and she called out "Lazaris!" and she was not injured or she avoided the crash, don't remember which.
Sai Baba is NOT a holy man yet this person attributed his experience to him:

quote:

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Over the next 15 years, however, he found himself subject to a range of 'amazing teachings' that he attributed to Sai Baba. The most extreme occurred in 1976. It was a time, he said, when his doubts about Sai Baba were at their greatest. Driving a Porsche Turbo through the Hollywood Hills after a late-night party, he came off the road at 80mph and crashed through a barricade into a 200ft gully. 'I had no seatbelt on. At the moment I knew I was going to die I could feel pressure on my shoulders, and I look and, seemingly to me, there is Sai Baba sitting beside me with his arms around me. The car hits the ground and turns more than a dozen times before it lands upright, totally demolished. And there's not a scratch on me. I'm thinking, this can't be true. Was it him? Was it my imagination? Did I call him and somehow create this belief in my mind that he was there?'

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And on questioning one's self-trust after being betrayed:

quote:

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It goes so far into your mind. You ask yourself, how could millions of people be wrong? How could millions of people be tricked? I think a lot of people deny these things are happening because they're afraid of being embarrassed. I felt that myself. We'd spent 23 years raising our family to believe in him, going upstream against a river. You think, how could I have been so wrong?'

Since leaving Sai Baba, he said, the family had been trying to find a basis for faith in their own hearts. He believed following Sai Baba's teachings for 23 years had made him a more humble, honest and kind human being.

'My wife hates him for what he did to our son. I feel betrayed. I think it's despicable. But as I look back over my life I would have to say that I honestly don't regret anything that's happened and that I've grown through all of it.' Finding Sai Baba, and then discarding him, 'I'm happier now than at any point in my life.'

Sam said the experience had brought him to see his life in 'a whole other perspective. It made me realise, all my life I've spent following some other human being around, trying to do what he says.' Freed from the prison of false belief, he said, 'I'm just trying to live up to myself.

---

And a couple of comments that also apply:

quote:

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How does this happen? In an imperfect world, we crave some evidence of perfection, some symbol of ineluctable goodness. The guru becomes the expression of the dream.

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quote:

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The grief any cult’s unveiling causes honest spiritual seekers, is monumental. To find that the path, which took one away from family, friends and loved ones is only a mirage.... To find oneself deceived, betrayed; to have one’s trust broken.... To find the love promised is conditional and those one thought were ‘family’, now turn away with cries of ‘Judas!’....
It’s a devastation of self worth, and seemingly a terrible waste of time. But of course it is not.

One thing is self evident. All here on the planet are having experience, and the consequence of experience - especially spiritual experience - is wisdom, and freedom from dependency.

Leaving a cult is like experiencing a death of a loved one. There is a grieving process which will take time. Time to process the feelings of confusion, loss, guilt, disillusionment, anger, and lack of trust engendered.

For a little while I felt very angry, to think my long held love of God the Creator had been exploited in this way - ‘detoured’ as it were, along a pathway that I hadn’t consciously asked for; enticing me into giving my power away to a master of deception.

But this feeling didn’t last for long, I was soon able to accept that the whole experience was one I chose, and my grief and anger - also part of the experience.

In time the negative feelings were replaced with a sense of freedom, and the joy of returning to the real world.

The gift in all of the above, was a profound realisation that for me the ‘age of the guru’ is dead. No longer willing to give my trust to outer teachers, I now at last, follow the message all true spiritual masters have given down the long halls of time - by seeking within, the kingdom of heaven.

In conclusion, I can tell you from our own experience, the pain you suffer will heal. There is life after Sai Baba, and as you claim back your own power, you will be enriched, and find the pathway now illuminated, wonderful.

I wish you a fulfilling and self realising journey.

Faye Bailey

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quote:

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Where to now?
No more gurus for me.
Once more, for me the true connection with God is inside me.
No more giving my power away.
To sit still quietly and talk to God within, I find gets real answers.
To accept who I am in this life, and to do my best with my gifts, knowing that I am part of the Great Picture, is enough.

---

These quotes came from "The Findings," by David and Faye Bailey:

http://www.npi-news.dk/page152.htm

and

NHNE Special Report Update:
Sai Baba: Divine Downfall
Monday, October 30, 2000

http://162.42.164.146/specialreports/srsaibaba2.html

Sorry this is so long, but the parallels are quite fascinating. I really appreciate you leading me to this info. Thank you.

Nancy