Thought it might be interesting to set aside a thread where people could discuss some specifics in their personal interactions with Lazaris that led them to believe that Lazaris is either who he claims to be or not.

Some people have written that those experiences are too personal or private to share and thats fine, of course.

But others may have experiences to share that are not a violation of their privacy or that do not make them uncomfortable.

For me the biggest thing that points to Lazaris not being who he says he is has to do with his bad choice of playmates.

The second thing that points to fraud is Lazaris' veneration of Peny.

The third thing is the dependancy andt the mental, emotional, financial and psychic ill effects created in the "friends" cum followers of Lazaris.

How many "friends" do you have that invite you over to their place ask you to pay them several hundred dollars to stay the weekend while they share their wisdom and then allow you to be brutalized by the maid or other custodial help.

Sound familiar?

I do think on the other hand there is ample evidence that Jach is not crafty enough, slick enough or confident enough to have spouted some of the more insightful things that Lazaris has said in the way they are expressed.

It is also strange to me that Jach would make it so hard on himself as to have actual steps etc. to remember.

Knowing Jach the little that I do, I cannot imagine him taking the difficult road to any destination.

He could have more easily done a JZ Knight "Ramtha" act where he just pontificates in a formless structureless manner for several hours. No need for notes or heavy preperation that way.

But again on the other hand there is ample and convincing evidence that he did just that pulling from Jung, Seth and many others.

Strange, the one thing that always convinced me of Lazaris validity was his sense of irony, which Jach most decidedly doesn't seem to posess. Again that could be part of the act.

So I don't have conclusions here but plenty of questions.

It could also be that Lazaris dropped them sometime in the 80's and they have been improvising ever since.

The only problem with that argument is wouldn't Lazaris have announced his departure to his "friends" before left?

Wouldn't he have done so while our cherubic erstwhile insurance executive was in one of his "deep objective trances"?

If he is who he says he is then that would be the only fair thing to do for his "friends"

Whatever the case, you have to wonder is this the type of "friend" you want to close your eyes in front of and let them loot your mind?

Some people have alluded to experiences where there was clear psychic ability demonstrated but that doesn't confirm that Lazaris is who he says he is, only that he is psychic.

Big deal. lots of people are psychic.

I don't have any such experiences with Lazaris of feeling overwhelming love or emotional euphoria.

I just never had them with Lazaris. For me it was always about the information and exploring metaphysics and how it worked, the fact that Lazaris "loved" me was not what kept me hooked.

What kept me hooked was my perception that the information was of extremely high quality.

That perception is now subject to review [g]

So does anyone have any other experiences that confirm or deny the reality of Lazaris for them?

Cheers,

You wrote:

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It is also strange to me that Jach would make it so hard on himself as to have actual steps etc. to remember.

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I think that depends on how one's mind works. For some the skeletal structure, such as 7 steps, 7 blockages, etc., probably makes the job easier. I've heard "Lazaris" fumble for words a few times - "they" couldn't remember the word for such-and-such. Huh? They're not subject to time. Are they subject to Alzheimer's?

The Success Cube meditation on an early tape has "Lazaris" saying "just you and I", quickly adding, "just you and us". Did Jach forget for a moment that he was supposed to be a "we"?

You wrote:

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It could also be that Lazaris dropped them sometime in the 80's and they have been improvising ever since... The only problem with that argument is wouldn't Lazaris have announced his departure to his "friends" before left?

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Yeah, that's quite a large problem. And it doesn't address the notion that Jach isn't talented enough to pull it off. He still would have to have done a real good job for over 10 years.

I can't see how the idea that Jach is an impure channel would bring comfort to anyone. From a practical perspective, it's no different than the idea that he is a total fake. Either way, we can't trust any given piece of information. Either way, Jach would have to be a talented actor. But, if Jach "sometimes" speaks as Jach, wouldn't Lazaris have a moral obligation to out him at the next opportunity?

Suppose it was Jach masquerading as Lazaris telling the daughter to distance herself from her mother. Why didn't Lazaris announce, upon his return, that it wasn't "him" who said those things? If I were in Lazaris' position, I certainly would. I would also tell Jach that if he ever tried a stunt like that again, I would find another channel. Then again, why would this "Being from the Higher Realms" make such a fundemental mistake as to choose a dishonest channel in the first place?

You wrote:

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He could have more easily done a JZ Knight "Ramtha" act where he just pontificates in a formless structureless manner for several hours. No need for notes or heavy preperation that way.

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I have a theory that Jach actually has a conscience buried deep below the arrogance and codependency. Could be he justifies what he's doing by telling himself that he's providing good information to people. And the fact that it comes from on-high gives people more confidence in the information. Where's the harm? (Jach, if you're still wondering, read this site.)

There are other possibilities, such as schizophrenia, idiot-savant sydrome.

We know that Jach has downplayed - lied by omission - about his involvement with Silva Mind Control. The official story also says he was metaphysically naive before the grand orb came through. This suggests a conscious and purposeful attempt to create a contrast between Jach the man, and Lazaris the Great Entity.

It's been said in here that Jach is too lazy to pull this off. I don't know where that came from. Of all the negative attribute I can attach to Jach, I don't think laziness is one of them. I think he is a man driven. Driven by greed, but more so by his codependent relationship with Peny. Laziness rarely stands in the way a psychotic drive.

A friend of ours who met Jach at an MLM seminar and had no exposure to "Lazaris" describes Jach as a person who can remember minute details about others and can zone in on their desires and fears. Similar abilities helped propel Bill Clinton to the presidency. Does anyone think that Clinton was channeling?

Do you think it's possible that all the little (self) deprecating stories and comments about "The Channel" are part of the subliminal programming? Geared to paint a picture of Jach (Clark Kent) as such a stumbler, bumbler that he could never pull off the Lazaris act?

None of us really know Jach, we only know him from very brief contact (who does know Jach really well?) and all the stories Lazaris tells us about him.

I must admit, that I'm becoming more suspicious as I realize that there are so many strong opinions about a guy nobody really knows.

Based on what experience are we evaluating Jach's intelligence relative to Lazaris? His Forum posts? Well......

All I know is that once I had experienced Jach's very nasty, paranoid, and punishing side, I realized that he's very good at putting on an act.

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You wrote: [QUOTE]It is also strange to me that Jach would make it so hard on himself as to have actual steps etc. to remember.

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I think that depends on how one's mind works. For some the skeletal structure, such as 7 steps, 7 blockages, etc., probably makes the job easier.

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That is an excellent point and one I hadn't thought of really. Jach may just be a catagorical thinker and he prepares himslef accordingly.

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I've heard "Lazaris" fumble for words a few times - "they" couldn't remember the word for such-and-such. Huh? They're not subject to time. Are they subject to Alzheimer's?

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That is so damn funny..lol...

Yeah there were many slip ups which I am sure CS would explain as Lazaris trying to appear more "human" so as not to intimidate us.

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The Success Cube meditation on an early tape has "Lazaris" saying "just you and I", quickly adding, "just you and us". Did Jach forget for a moment that he was supposed to be a "we"?

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Interesting. I would love to hear a linguist or a speech specialist study a few tapes and offer an opinion as to the complexity of content etc. Would be interesting to subject the material to those kinds of evaluations since Jach and Peny never bothered to.

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You wrote: [QUOTE]It could also be that Lazaris dropped them sometime in the 80's and they have been improvising ever since... The only problem with that argument is wouldn't Lazaris have announced his departure to his "friends" before left?

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Yeah, that's quite a large problem. And it doesn't address the notion that Jach isn't talented enough to pull it off. He still would have to have done a real good job for over 10 years.

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A passable job at least, yes. Whatever the case NOBODY could claim that the "being" that told a daughter to distance herself from her mother because the mother's thinking was "wrong" could possibly be the
"Lazaris" we thought we were listening too.

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I can't see how the idea that Jach is an impure channel would bring comfort to anyone. From a practical perspective, it's no different than the idea that he is a total fake. Either way, we can't trust any given piece of information. Either way, Jach would have to be a talented actor. But, if Jach "sometimes" speaks as Jach, wouldn't Lazaris have a moral obligation to out him at the next opportunity?

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I agree with you completely, I cannot see any comfort in harboring the notion that Jach is a less than pure channel. Who needs that? We are all less than pure channels LOL.. but some of us are free..[g]

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Suppose it was Jach masquerading as Lazaris telling the daughter to distance herself from her mother. Why didn't Lazaris announce, upon his return, that it wasn't "him" who said those things? If I were in Lazaris' position, I certainly would.

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Absolutely, I agree. Excellent point.

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I would also tell Jach that if he ever tried a stunt like that again, I would find another channel. Then again, why would this "Being from the Higher Realms" make such a fundemental mistake as to choose a dishonest channel in the first place?

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Well there we have the now famous bad judgement on the part of Lazaris as to who he hangs with and who represents him.

All this aside Jach, Peny and Michaell boast openly on the Lazaris website that they live this material.

Whoever Lazaris is are Jach Peny and Michaell positive endorsements for anything??

You wrote:

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He could have more easily done a JZ Knight "Ramtha" act where he just pontificates in a formless structureless manner for several hours. No need for notes or heavy preperation that way.

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I have a theory that Jach actually has a conscience buried deep below the arrogance and codependency. Could be he justifies what he's doing by telling himself that he's providing good information to people. And the fact that it comes from on-high gives people more confidence in the information. Where's the harm? (Jach, if you're still wondering, read this site.)

There are other possibilities, such as schizophrenia, idiot-savant sydrome.

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friend of ours who met Jach at an MLM seminar and had no exposure to "Lazaris" describes Jach as a person who can remember minute details about others and can zone in on their desires and fears.

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Ted, if you get a minute could you write some more about this MLM encounter? I know you did in another thread somewhere a while back but I bet those just tuning in might miss it and it is an interesting glimpse into Jach.

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Does anyone think that Clinton was channeling?

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Oh no, he couldn't have been channeling, he only made 200,000 dollars or something in fiscal year 2000...channlels make MUCH more these days. [lol]

Cheers,

Jeremiah

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Do you think it's possible that all the little (self) deprecating stories and comments about "The Channel" are part of the subliminal programming? Geared to paint a picture of Jach (Clark Kent) as such a stumbler, bumbler that he could never pull off the Lazaris act?

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Yes, I think its possible. It is the effect even if it isn't intentional to present the "channel" as an earnest metaphysical seeker.

As an aside, isn't it weird that Lazaris explained he never said Jach's name because the "a" sound was awkward to pronounce?

Do I have that right? Can anyone clarify that if I am wrong?

I heard Lazaris use that sound in other peoples names and in other ways without trouble often.

Strange...

I think it is also worth noting that Peny was never the subject of any of those self -deprecating anecdotes.

Any story regarding conflict between her and the "channel" always had her coming out on top and the one who always had it right from the get go.

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None of us really know Jach, we only know him from very brief contact (who does know Jach really well?) and all the stories Lazaris tells us about him.

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True, very true.

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I must admit, that I'm becoming more suspicious as I realize that there are so many strong opinions about a guy nobody really knows.

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Yeah, good point.

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Based on what experience are we evaluating Jach's intelligence relative to Lazaris? His Forum posts? Well......

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Well..indeed..LOL..

Cheers,

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I can't see how the idea that Jach is an impure channel would bring comfort to anyone.

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Maybe some people can more easily stomach being half fooled easier than being totally duped. Then issues of trust in "Lazaris" and self trust are murky, but don't demand facing a huge introspective upheaval. Or dealing with this sometimes frightening reality and the mystical unknown without an omnipotent chaperon.

Jade

You wrote:

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Ted, if you get a minute could you write some more about this MLM encounter?

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I don't remember any details other than what I wrote here. Katie wrote about our conversation with this fellow in the
Tidbits Over Dinner thread. Perhaps she can fill in some details.

You wrote:

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Well there we have the now famous bad judgement on the part of Lazaris as to who he hangs with and who represents
him

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That "bad judgment" was not the result of a willy-nilly descision. In Lazaris Interviews Book II, "Lazaris" explains this descision in response to the question, "So using Jach Pursel was premeditated on your part":

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Yes, it was premeditated on our part, most definitely so...

...We knew we wanted to communicate with your Earth planet. We made that descision, that choice. We do create our own reality as well - we do not teach anything that we do not abide by ourselves...

..In what would be your past, hundreds of years ago, we began subtly, ever so subtly nudging... (the channel) allowed himself to be aligned as he entered this current lifetime so that he would be in the best position to allow this connection to occur...

...We're quite pleased with the work that we did, for indeed as we began to communicate, the clarity was rather there. We are consistently able to communicate with clarity (emphasis mine)...

...We've been able to strengthen that energy so as to become even clearer...

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No mention of Jach possibly inserting his own stuff. Lazaris worked on this for hundreds of years and still got stuck with a loser for a channel. Who wants to take Reality Creation lessons from this guy?

I have a question, which may have been addressed previously and I missed it. It seems that most people here found out about Lazaris in the late 80's or later. What was he doing those previous years? Hasn't he been around since the mid 70's? I was just wondering if maybe that was plenty of time for Jach to develop his "material." Has anyone here been around that long that can tell us if or how Lazaris was evolving during that peroid?

Is there anyone in this audience who is familiar with Reverse Speech technology and therapy? I think that it might be very insightful to take a random selection of Lazaris tapes, listen to them through a reverse speech recorder/player for subconscious messages, and see what happens.

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Is there anyone in this audience who is familiar with Reverse Speech technology and therapy? I think that it might be very insightful to take a random selection of Lazaris tapes, listen to them through a reverse speech recorder/player for subconscious messages, and see what happens.

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Interesting you should mention that I just discovered that website reversespeach.com a few days ago and was wondering the same thing.

The reverse speech recorders cost about 200 bucks.. haven't decided whether I want to mess around with that yet.

Would be interesting. I don't know how valid the whole thing is but it sure is compelling.

Cheers,

I'm not completely clear on the chronology of Lazaris, I know that Jach, Peny, et. al moved around a bit during the 70's.

We have some posters and lurkers here who can provide a better history than I can, but
what I remember is that J P and M arrived in the Bay Area sometime in the late 70's having moved here from the Atlanta area. If I'm not mistaken, they Silva training took place in Michigan, where they were from, so that must have been earlier.

Jach was initially doing channelings out of a friend's bedroom in Berkely around '79. Then they purchased a modest home in Marin County. P and M lived in the house, Jach lived in the garage, where he had a little space where he would hold little meetings and so some channeling and private readings.

I very much suspect that Jach took advantage of this time to hone his skills, practice some trial and error on his presentations, and study his clients.

At some point during that time they were joined by a woman who had been a business partner with Werner Erhardt's (EST) wife. She became a well-know wighead at seminars up until a few years ago, when she mysteriously disappeared.

She was charged with the responsibility of bringing back tasty tid-bits of gossip to Peny, and was known to often as attendees if they had any stories to share.

I'm glad you brought this up, it's good for us to remember that Lazaris did not just one day miraculously appear to a group of people in a crystal filled living room, or a hotel ballroom. The Lazaris experiment had very humble roots.

The public humiliations and abuse began during these humbler and earlier times as well.

It wasn't too long after Jach discovered that he could make a lot of big bucks filling up ballrooms that he got into the MLM business. (or the MLM business inspired the ballroom tactic, I'm not sure which was the chicken and which the egg)

That speaks to me of his lack of faith in his ability to keep this channelling bit going for long, and thought it expedient to nab the crowds while he could by signing them all up in an MLM scam that would provide for him into his declining years. Here we have our first very public peek into the reality creation "successes" of the stellar ones.

It really is helpful to step back and think about how this whole scene unfolded. Most of us met Lazaris for the first time at a polished seminar after the skills had been honed, and the base group of devotees established. It wasn't always that way.

I've also heard that during the early "lean" years Jach and Peny were not above courting those with substantial bank accounts. A story was told of a man who had inherited enough money to have financial independence, but when the vultures were finished with him he was poor, and I believe, dead, of suicide.

Stories are also circulating, with some reliable verification, that M. Prestini (North) arrived with a bag of seed money himself.

I have spent a lot of time and energy searching for information on this gang, and one thing I'll tell you, I've heard lots and lots of stories, and precious few, if any of them were nice or indicative that these were ever decent people.

Many of these stories came from long time followers, some are still followers and believers, all were told with a great and moving sense of sorrow and grief, all reported personal anecdotes of public and private humiliations, and the clear implementation of cult tactics from jump street.

The best thing I've heard about Peny is that some believe that at one time she did have honorable motives and an altruistic vision. All that changed very quickly when the money started to roll in.

I have never heard one flattering, complimentary, or warm comment made about Jach by anyone who has ever known him personally.

A few that come to mind are "psychopathic personality" "nasty little fucker". Actually, they came from notes I've taken during some of these conversations.

I'm scanning through them as I write to refresh my memory. The lurid details have since lost much of their interest to me, I've heard the stories so many times, from so many people, I have the picture bright and clear.

I understand that most of the newer readers here have not heard all these stories, so I don't mind telling them again.

It might be a fun adventure to go back to the posts in the first few months thought, there is a lot reported there.

Katie

I thought I posted this afternoon but obviously didn't.

While reading all your posts, I was inspired to "ponder" yet another shade of grey with regards to Lazaris. Fortunately I had saved most of it in case I lost it by being booted offline...Now THAT was pretty psychic of me, don't you think?!!

[[[Hi Everyone,

Just a quick thought to ponder, as I don't have time right now to write much...

Anyone can become a tarot card reader. All one has to do is say the generalized, "hmm, when you were just a child, there was an older person who made you feel very uncomfortable." or "when you were very young, did you have a bad experience involving an older person...an uncle, a neighbor..definitely a male..." or "you were born to be a beacon of light to the rest of the world" or "you are a chosen one to help change the world..." etc. etc. etc.....

The point here is that "anyone can say these things and we will surely find an incident to prove them right" simply because we have had what we would consider bad experiences with some male in our childhood...or...we have all felt at some time that we knew better than others so of course "we really are beacons and are supposed to help change the world," and we may have needed that type of validation...Needless to say, I don't have my cards read.

And in all retrospect, Lazaris has spoken just as generally in our personal communications.......

I think it was done through "general psyche" knowledge of plain-old humaness...and if as an answer to a specific question during "Magic Time," the same general rules apply...and perhaps even "a great deal" of what is said surely rings true because it is Just Simply True for all of us...and just as simply true BECAUSE we are human...these things are part of the human condition and we are all very much alike even if in different areas of our lives.

I think that because the FOCUS was on us during Magic Time and in personal consulations, and specifically to our questions, it became Magical "mainly" because it was from Lazaris, but I also believe "therapeutic" would be more a more correct term, and that it could have come from anyone....even me!...if I had concentrated my thoughts onto ONLY you and YOUR situation/question.

After paying sooooooo much money to go to an intensive, don't you think that if chosen for "Magic Time," we surely "deserved" that focus and attention??? ..... Being the center of attention in a roomful of hundereds surely must increase our "??? chemistry" and enhance the nervousness and excitement and "Magic"....And though the answers were general, they were applied to a specific question, FOR us, so we could just naturally accept and relate and feel complimented and high....PLUS there's the fact of that chemical nervous/excited energy being felt by those in our vicinity...which could be why the person who had the mike, for instance, seemed to speak for more than themselves. We can all relate to the experience of walking into the middle of an argument? I believe it's very much the same type of thing during Magic Time.

I still think it's odd that Lazaris felt the need to respond to my daughter the way he did...THAT was the icing on that cake for me!!! It was bad enough to "doubt" because of the nastiness of Peny and others in the forum, but did Lazaris really need to be humorously-cruel and then add that little extra spice about my thinking being all wrong and she should break away from me??? She has been on her own for years and any apron strings were cut long ago. That certainly doesn't mean that she doesn't love me or consider my thoughts and feelings. I don't give a hoot about what he said about me OR my thinking but I damn well give a hoot about the reasons he said things that way to her!!! Was it necessary??? Did it enhance/clarify the answer to her question??? Or did Jach use this opportunity to make a statement to everyone in the room because of Forum Storm?????? It seems to me that the only ones to benefit from that little tidbit were Jach and Peny!!!

IMVHO..."their" thinking is all wrong...Sacred Covenant suicide pact???!!!!!
That's just vomitous and sick!!!

Anyway, I was thinking about the similarities between sham card readers and Lazaris....and the "general statements" that both expect us to believe as fact and truth.....HALF-TRUTHS.....

to all,

Marilyn

[This message has been edited by Marilyn (edited 06-04-2001).]

I had been very impressed by the Seth Material, so I set some parameters for myself and I specifically went looking for some other channeled material. In my spiritual search, I have always tried to remind myself that there is a fine line between the psychic and the psychotic. The Seth material convinced me that channeled info could be real, but i would force myself to take a long, remote look at the material before getting too committed.

Everything I looked at was laughable untill I was handed a Lazaris tape. I was blown away. In general, the tapes seemed to work for me, but I had some warning signs.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, I found the forever and a day thing embarassing.

I could not do the meditations. I do not know why, but I found them distracting. I found success only after listening to them while driving, changing things around so they made sense to me, then doing it on my own. I understood that guided meditations are a form of hypnosis, but I felt willing to trust Lazaris. Maybe I just could not be hypnotised?

I could not buy the star connection stuff. For some reason, I have even blocked most of that from my memory.

I did not buy the giant sparkler explanation, but I did understand it in a different way. My background was in engineering, so I understood both the particle and wave form theories of light. I experienced my meditations (non-guided) as wave energy. I tried to "blend" with particle energy.

I had two friends with new age book stores, and they told me that C/S was the worst company they had to deal with.

I did not like the early Peny tapes. I did not find her as bright nor as spiritual as she had been portrayed. I had no desire to talk to her. Then, in the very early ninties, she came out with another tape. What I heard was that she knew where she was going when she died, to be with Lazaris, and indicated others should follow. I do not remember hearing anything after that. When I die I will begin a new adventure, and I really do not care to have Peny there. For me, this was an irrevocable crossing into the psychotic, so I bailed.

Although I took myself out of the loop, I still thought the material had value. I still promoted and defended it. I still listened to my old tapes. Then at the end of last year, my own inner guidance told me that we were entering a time when everyones core beliefs were going to be seriously challenged. Then a shaman friend asked me if the Lazaris thing was a cult. I said no but decided to look further into it and DAMN, look what I found!

I may have had more success with the material than Peny did.

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I had been very impressed by the Seth Material, so I set some parameters for myself and I specifically went looking for some other channeled material.

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My experience too. I didn't encounter anything that closely coincided with my beliefs until L. I'm no engineer, but I read several books along the lines of "the Tao of Physics", Dance of the Wu Li Masters", "Stalking the Wild Pendulum", etc.

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As I have mentioned elsewhere, I found the forever and a day thing embarassing.

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I could not buy the star connection stuff.

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What I heard was that she [Peny] knew where she was going when she died, to be with Lazaris, and indicated others should follow.

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Well, !! "Lazaris" and Peny through all eternity -- that does sound like the fires of Hell.

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I feel very lucky to have gotten out when I did. I also feel a lot of gratitude, as I think my guides may have put in a lot of overtime covering my butt on this one.

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Well said!

Jade

The choice of L's playmates was pretty much the turning point for me as well. I'd heard second hand from Katie,& Ted about some of the stuff that went on @ the millenium "saleabration", and that was a big straw.

I'd seen/heard many things that rubbed me the wrong way, but also some pretty major inconsistencies that were messin with my brain.

I questioned the re-selling of old material repackaged, and given a slightly new name seemed very cult like/greedy.

The fact that L. comes out every year with a name for the "energy" of that year, ok, but then sells a seminar to go over that step by step, also ok...
BUT, to then sell ANOTHER seminar with the "first part" of the year broken down, and separated from the SECOND part, now,...that SCREAMS..GREEED, and I could not look @ con;sin the same after that.

I have thrown out all my tapes, so I'm only going from memory:
There is a tape which L. points out that there is "No such thing as movement" in other words he states, when you move your finger you are re-creating many times per second the finger in a different place, I guess L. means it is much like a animated movie, or clay-mation, ala; Chicken run..
Ridiculous eh???

I mean REALLY, how out there can one get.
I have mentioned b-4 that it seemed at some point that J/L wanted to get to the apogies of what is believable, the weirder the better.

I believe this was a specific manipulation meant to get peepull heads in a spin, and deliberately confuse/challenge reality of followers.

On another tape he directly contradicts what he'd said was the natural order of a specific mental process, I'm sorry I have forgetten the details but it was like "form follows function type of thing, it is reversed in another tape, and no-one ever noticed?

L. would never go back to retract anything cuz they'd been set up to be so consistent, and mistake, how would that be????
I'm certain there are more I didn't catch.

Then there is the tape about Feeling L's LUUUV, where he relates a story of a man who wanted to go to China right after Tianamen Square(12 yrs. ago TODAY how ODD) anyway... this person didn't really know why but he wanted to go...On the airplane he "ran into" others who knew(and loved)the teachings of L... how amazing eh? already reeking of fishy.

when he arrived in China it was depressing, after a few days went to the great wall, and lo and behold.... heard the "L remembers Lemuria" music, it turns out it was coming from a little "country herbalist" poor guy's shack who would sell ginseng to the tourists.

story goes that this guy had a boom box!!! and the traveller goes into the shack to see rows of L. tapes...the chinese man speaks NO ENGLISH, he can only listen to the ENERGY comming from the tapes, yet he has more than SEVERAL...***puleezzeeeee****

where'd country-man plug in that boom box.! I can guarantee you he had no outlet,into the great wall,,, and Batteries forget it that would be so expensive.
If said "traveller" is reading/lurking please do step forward to prove to me how far ahead of us metaphisically the Chinese are, gosh they dont' even have to understand the teachings.!!!

These are just a few bits that messed with me big time...these are a deep shade of grey, and very questionable...in my book...

Let's see how many more we can compile.!!!!

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the chinese man speaks NO ENGLISH, he can only listen to the ENERGY comming from the tapes, yet he has more than SEVERAL...***puleezzeeeee****

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Ok, correct me if I've got this wrong, but I remember Lazaris (at a seminar about 8 or 9 years ago) talking about a couple sitting together during a private consultation and how amazed they were that each heard an entirely different reading. And what about the claims that the tapes change as you open up to what you need to hear. That's pretty magical, if true. Then why can people only hear him in English?

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

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Everything I looked at was laughable untill I was handed a Lazaris tape. I was blown away. In general, the tapes seemed to work for me, but I had some warning signs.

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Like you, I was [still am] very impressed with The Seth Material, and the scope integrity and intellectual honesty with which it was presented.

Interesting to note that all of the Seth Material ever published [this has got to be now over 25 volumes] could easily be purchased for less than the price of a Lazaris weekend.

Peny at one time expressed admiration for Seth [Lazaris always did] until a change of heart recently led her to utter her dismay around how much "work" it took to get Seth.

Work indeed. a four letter word for our spark amongst sparks.. work? In otherwords, reading.

Also interesting to note that Seth never blathers on about how much he loves us etc. And always spoke about independance of thought as well as the dangers of dogma.

I guess Seth understood love is action not protestation.

So I also held any channeled material against the standard Seth set in my mind and until I heard my first Lazaris tape, I didn't think it was possible.

There were many red flags from the beginning not the least of which being the tacky, childish marketing and packaging

The over the top romance novel language of the brochures promising not only insight and metaphysical enlightement but the guarentee of a special interdimensional orgasm with the big formless one in the not so appealing form of Jach Pursel.

I used to hear stories of women slipping hotel keys under Jach's door at seminars. I thought; wow, how pathetic. But you have to consider how these women were encouraged to see Jachzaris as a love object, so one could hardly blame them for that transference of sexual energy.

Then there was the Concept Synergy method of conducting business which leaves much to be desired.

Of course, the elevation of Peny by Lazaris was something that always bothered me and that was even before I knew her and how insufferable she was.

Just the idea of elevating a human being like that should have been enough to get me out.

I didn't get out because I thought the material was so good and interesting and the delivery and the humor fantastic.

And then came my first workshop:.

Purple everywhere, a preponderance of eva gabor wigs on the femal domes of the CS worker bees that manned the crystal table. The drones bore a remarkable resemblance to Jach both in appearance and in their oddly nuetered emasculated presence.

Most disturbing were the converstations I overheard that indicated people had been attending workshops for years and were hoping "this would be the one"

Again, I worked overtime to push this aside and blame them for not getting it. Now I realize they got it all right, the were doing just what CS wanted them to do.

I tried to ignore the desperation that people seemed to have to get "private consultations" with Lazaris. This was puzzling to me because I thought while that might be fun, it certainly isn't necessary.

How come they couldn't figure out their own beliefs?

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As I have mentioned elsewhere, I found the forever and a day thing embarassing.

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Yeah, that was really repulsive. The one that always felt like nails on a chalkboard for me was "magic time". Talk about infantalizing the client..LOL.. like romper room.

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could not do the meditations. I do not know why, but I found them distracting.

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I had the same reaction to the meditations and though I listened to every tape many, many times I rarely did any of the meditations.

I liked the early ones, but once they starte playing that elevator music, I couldn't bear it.

I used to think it was resistance to growth, now I wonder if it was resistance I didn't fully understand to indoctrination.

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I could not buy the star connection stuff. For some reason, I have even blocked most of that from my memory.

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Like Jade, I found the Sirius stuff somewhat on an interesting tract, but it had limited appeal to me. I went ot only a few workshops during the several years I was involved with Lazaris so I missed a bunch of the more wacko stuff he was spouting.

When I read the gang writing about "eagle people" and "dolphin people" I nearly hurled.

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I did not buy the giant sparkler explanation, but I did understand it in a different way.

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Must a missed the giant sparkler story or I am misunderstanding what you are referring to.

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I had two friends with new age book stores, and they told me that C/S was the worst company they had to deal with.

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Yeah, I heard that from bookstores too. Once I asked a store owner why she didn't carry the Lazaris material and she told me that if the employees of CS were any indication of the quality of the material she wanted no part of it and couldn't feel good about selling it.

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did not like the early Peny tapes. I did not find her as bright nor as spiritual as she had been portrayed. I had no desire to talk to her. Then, in the very early ninties, she came out with another tape. What I heard was that she knew where she was going when she died, to be with Lazaris, and indicated others should follow.

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Wow, must have blanked that out. I do remember almost throwing in the towel the first twenty minutes after hearing her strident tone and bombastic self aggrandizement.

One almost turning point for me was when she proclaimed that she had almost saved the world in Atlantis or some such ridiculous shit as that.

It seems to hear her tell it, that she was assasinated because the dark forces [darker than Peny? thats food for thought, ]

Through all this Lazaris is just sitting there mumbling, "yes dear one, certainly so..".. Damn..where was my mind??? I should have bailed then.

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When I die I will begin a new adventure, and I really do not care to have Peny there.

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I hear ya bro.

Good to read your posts,

Jeremiah

Too funny, that was the one tape I never bought the one about feeling more of L's love..so I appreciate your glimpse into the darkness that is that tape.

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when he arrived in China it was depressing, after a few days went to the great wall, and lo and behold.... heard the "L remembers Lemuria" music, it turns out it was coming from a little "country herbalist" poor guy's shack who would sell ginseng to the tourists.

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The operative word being SELLING.

Who but CS could bring the free enterprise capitalist spirit to the Chinese new age in as tacky a way possible?

Cheers,

Jeremiah

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Ok, correct me if I've got this wrong, but I remember Lazaris (at a seminar about 8 or 9 years ago) talking about a couple sitting together during a private consultation and how amazed they were that each heard an entirely different reading.

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No, you have that right. I didn't hear the specific reference you mention but Lazaris often taught that we each hear a different tape/seminar based on what we are willing to hear.

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And what about the claims that the tapes change as you open up to what you need to hear. That's pretty magical, if true.

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It is magical, thats true but it has nothing specific to do with Lazaris, imo.

My understanding is that is just the way the universe functions.

Once your conciousnes expands, you see deeper, hear deeper..everything..

Even free stuff.

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Then why can people only hear him in English?

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Well, to hear Lazaris tell it they took alot of "time" to learn our language. That is, even though they don't experience time and even though time is an illusion.

snap

They also assert they don't desire to talk to everyone.

Time certainly is an illusion, no argument from me on that.

Lazaris explanation as to why he doesn't communicate in other languages contradicts what he describes as his own experience of his reality.

It implies that he encountered difficulty learning English..

Hmm.. strange.. a 5 year old non-orb human can master the language.. hard to understand how a formless multidimensional spark might have to wrestle with it.. but hey.. I am only human.

It also implies Lazaris spent "time" although he is quick to assert while discussing it "time in your terms".

Well, screw that, time in my terms is my limitation and I certainly don't expect Lazaris to share that limitation.

So none of Lazaris reasoning on the issue of his one and only language make sense to me.

Also, Lazaris talks about how they are not really speaking in a language but that the send out bleeps and blips.

Actually that is the way all hearing is done, our brain translates bleeps and blips [frequencies, I guess is a better term] into language, thus we literally create what we hear others say.

Strange, that those hearing L's bleeps and blips cannot just translate them into Chinese or German or whatever..

Seems with a little adjustment you could just put a twist on your bleeps so that they could get it..

Cheers,

Jeremiah

Thank you so much for your response.

I was thinking the same thing...with the "blips and bleeps". It's ridiculous to think that a real Lazaris would be limited by language. I mean, if Peny was going to share him, why not with the whole world. (Imagine the profit from that!)

I'm feeling another wave of anger as I let this in.

Oh, btw, I also believe that we hear and see deeper as we grow...I'm in one of those expanding places as we speak!

Thanks for the response Lilly about hearing what we "can" hear. I totally agree with that....

A friend once told me he followed L. around the country I guess it was somewhat like a "DEAD HEAD" hummm, no pun intended but I now see how poignant that is regarding that type of loyalty...

anyway,,, he told me that he never heard the same seminar twice, not even close, even when they had the same title.

I just see that as Jach's inabiity to be consistent, as it was all a sham, but hey I'm just a hardened, gnarled cynic.

Getting back to the Chinese / English, well L. states on the tape that the chinese could only listen to the ENERGY on the tapes, he does not even allude to them hearing it in their own language....
call me a cynic again, but WHY then would one need more than SEVERAL..???? especially when one is a "poor country herbalist", could be what Jeremiah was saying it all comes down to SELLING....

I'm sorry I'm such a cynic, but I don't believe one twit of that story about some poor kid having relief from anything Jach/L spewed out, nor from any music that would have been "specially created"
Who told you this story??

If anyone was healed in any way I'd chalk it up to placebo, you can check the thread where I posted some amazing data regarding clinical trials involving placebos.

I can't recall which thread it was, but I will check.

Lazaris told the story. And we know it's true because they never lie. And we know they never lie because they say they never lie. Why are you so cynical?

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Originally posted by Wayne:
It would have been more believable if L had told the mother what the kid saw.

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Wayne brings up an interesting point. I got my (BA) degree in Ancient Near Eastern Languages and Liturature and my major professor was very interested in prophets, oracles, shamans, seers, and other spiritual people in various cultures. One consistent rule across cultures is that you never tell these people anything and you never, never tell them the question you want to ask. They are supposed to tell you. That's one way you can tell a false prophet from a true one.

The other rule is that the answers are usually given in poetic, symbolic language and most people misinterpret them, with dire consequences.

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Originally posted by Wayne:
[B]To Jeremiah

The explanation for the giant sparkler as I remember it is a little foggy but....a mother with a blind, non communicative multiple handicapped kid who threw violent tantrums asked L for help. A tape was provided, not sure if it was a music tape or other, and the kid always quieted right down when she played it. She asked this non communicative kid what he saw--in the special way that only the mother could communicate with her special child--and the kid told her about the sparkly ball of light. So, in dererence to this very special kid, the formless one adopted the imagery of this kid. Anyone remember differently?

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Yes, that is exactly right, I was just discussing this yesterday with a friend. Additionally, does anyone know why they abandoned the ball of light image of the formless one on the tape covers and adpoted Jackoo channeling the formless one?

Was that suppose to make him more human? Or was Jackoo taking over? I always thought that was an interesting change?

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Additionally, does anyone know why they abandoned the ball of light image of the formless one on the tape covers and adpoted Jackoo channeling the formless one?

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While I still had my forum membership, I remember Jach sending out very long emails frequently. Then there were the 20 questions conferences with Jach, then came Jach as "Lazaris" on the tape covers. And finally the crystal emails (by request). Jach, Jach, Jach.
Probably part of him wants to take credit instead of giving it to his alter ego/act "Lazaris."

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Additionally, does anyone know why they abandoned the ball of light image of the formless one on the tape covers and adpoted Jackoo channeling the formless one?

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While I still had my forum membership, I remember Jach sending out very long emails frequently. Then there were the 20 questions conferences with Jach, then came Jach as "Lazaris" on the tape covers. And finally the crystal emails (by request). Jach, Jach, Jach.
Probably part of him wants to take credit instead of giving it to his alter ego/act "Lazaris."

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Peny at one time expressed admiration for Seth [Lazaris always did] until a change of heart recently led her to utter her dismay around how much "work" it took to get Seth.

Work indeed. a four letter word for our spark amongst sparks.. work? In otherwords, reading.

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When I first encounterd "Lazaris" at the Corte Madera gallery, an employee told me that "Lazaris" communicated with Seth. Yeah with Jach's yellow magic marker.

Didn't I read in Peny's autobio blip, that due her intellectual brilliance there would be very little to "challenge" her in life? Coupling that genius with life as the most dazzling consciousness on the planet, you'd think she'd have been able to inhale a Seth book in a breezy afternoon sit by the pool.

But, in reality there is all that work, reading and ... thinking.

I was doing some research on the web about borderline personality disorder and came across some info that seems apropos to the "shades of gray" topic.

I see that there have been discussions previously speculating about personality disorders being a possible explaination for behavior seen from Peny and others associated with Concept:Synergy.

The info I found suggests that boderline personality disorder is particularly associated with cults.

Here is a definition of borderline personaltiy disorder from the BPD Central website:

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A short version of the definition of BPD

In general, people with BPD feel worthless, empty, moody, needy, depressed, and have difficulty managing their emotions. They have trouble with boundaries--both their own and respecting others. They are looking for that all-loving "other" who will provide the unconditional love they cannot give themselves.

BPs often act inconsistently, act impulsively in ways they later regret, see other as either all good or all bad, and base their beliefs on feelings instead of facts. Borderlines are people in pain.

BPs commonly manage their intense pain in two ways: they act in or act out. BPs who act in may mutilate themselves, make suicide attempts, express self-hate, or seek outpatient or inpatient therapy.

Other BPs manage their pain by trying to foist it on others. They blame loved ones for all their problems, criticize, make unfair accusations, act emotionally or physically abusive, put others in no-won situations, and use emotional blackmail to get the love they need.

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This "all good/all bad" view of people is called "splitting." Everything is black and white with no gray; the normal ambiguities of life are incomprehensible and the person continually has to restructure her/his views as others become at any one moment totally evil or totally good.

People close to those with BPD describe the experience as "walking on eggshells." You never know when the slightest triviality will send the BPD person into a rage.

People with BPD apparently sometimes seek cults as a way to find structure and "love" in their chaotic lives.

BPD may also explain why some people have difficulty with the idea that "Lazaris" may have presented info that was helpful, valid, true, and valuable, from the idea that it/she/he/they is/are not helpful, valid, or valuable. The baby and the bathwater appear inseparable. These people could be very frustrating to deal with for those who do clearly see a separation.

One writer (not a trained professional, but someone with firsthand experience who'd done a lot of research on BPD) suggested that cults may even be organizational examples of BPD (sorry, I lost the reference, but an Internet search on "borderline personality disorder" will get you more info than you ever wanted to know).

Some people here might find the BPD Central site helpful because it's specifically aimed at non-BPD friends and family of people with BPD and has lots of support info, which may be helpful to people who've been involved with a BPD-like organization, too.

(BPD may or may not be the issue with Concept:Synergy and associated people, but I hope the support info is of use anyway.)

Your information is interesting. We probably all know someone with BPD, or maybe we all have it from time to time.

All kinds of people join cults. Having been in a cult is not an indication that there is anything pathologically wrong.

There are as many reasons for people being in cults as there are people in them.

Your information is a valid description of personalities and behaviors that Jachzaris discusses, but he uses "loaded language" or cult specific terminologies like negative ego, martyrhood, victimhood, self-pity, etc.

Although these are commonly used terms, what makes them "loaded" is that they have shades of meanings or are hot buttons recognized only by cult members.

I think Bizzaris does a pretty good job of defining these terms, I guess Jach had psych 101 in college, and we all read I'm OK Your OK back in the day. The problem comes in when those states are used as judgements of the state of a person's soul.

The concept of negative-ego has gotten so out of hand within the Con:Sin community that people go so far as to equate the writer of a controversial post with a dangerous murderer.

Actually, as I write that, and remember that it is actually really factually true, I have to laugh. It's so sick and pathetic, it is laughable, except for the fact that a lot of people take those kinds of judgements seriously and turn them inwards against their own sense of being.

People are courted to "Lazaris" with the promise of spectacular life enhancements, greater love, joy, success, spirituality, you name it, it's promised and promised in spades, not little things, big huge mind shattering world changing things.

Instead what we have is a bunch of terrified sychophants tiptoeing around on eggshells lest a careless word lands them on the gallows.

Of course, then we have people who are standing on the gallows they built for themselves, with the noose already around their neck just hoping for someone to come along so they can blame them for making them jump through the hole.

Those people are pretty fucked too.

So are the people who buy into the blame.

Life would be so cool if manipulation didn't work. Unfortunately, it does.

It's a chumps game.

Thanks for writing.

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Originally posted by Katie:
Hi Melinda,

Your information is interesting. We probably all know someone with BPD, or maybe we all have it from time to time.

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Probably it would be more accurate to say that we all share some behaviors of BPD people. From what I've read (and all I know is based on reading a few web sites, so take it with a grain of salt), a diagnosis of BPD requies consisist symptoms over many years.

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All kinds of people join cults. Having been in a cult is not an indication that there is anything pathologically wrong.

There are as many reasons for people being in cults as there are people in them.

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Right. I didn't mean to imply that all, most, or even a significant majority of people in cults were suffering from any disorder. I was more thinking of how a few BPD people could create a very crazy-making atmosphere for non-BPDs.

Maybe this info could be helpful in the grieving process being discussed in
Rob from S. Africa's thread. It was interesting to read writings of many non-BPDs who got caught up in non-cult situations with BPD people.

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Your information is a valid description of personalities and behaviors that Jachzaris discusses, but he uses "loaded language" or cult specific terminologies like negative ego, martyrhood, victimhood, self-pity, etc.

Although these are commonly used terms, what makes them "loaded" is that they have shades of meanings or are hot buttons recognized only by cult members.

I think Bizzaris does a pretty good job of defining these terms, I guess Jach had psych 101 in college, and we all read I'm OK Your OK back in the day. The problem comes in when those states are used as judgements of the state of a person's soul.

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Right again. For people who think they may have BPD or know someone who does, it's probably more helpful to know that this is a serious medical condition that can be sucessfully treated, that it is usually the result of some kind of trauma that interferred with the development process, and that it says absolutely nothing about the state of one's soul or one's value as a person.

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The concept of negative-ego has gotten so out of hand within the Con:Sin community that people go so far as to equate the writer of a controversial post with a dangerous murderer.

Actually, as I write that, and remember that it is actually really factually true, I have to laugh. It's so sick and pathetic, it is laughable, except for the fact that a lot of people take those kinds of judgements seriously and turn them inwards against their own sense of being.

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I was thinking, based on people's description of the forum, that the forum, if looked at as an entity on its own, might have a serious case of BPD. Even things like certain posts disappearing could be like the BPD's disassociation--blanking out things that don't fit their convoluted perception of the world.

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People are courted to "Lazaris" with the promise of spectacular life enhancements, greater love, joy, success, spirituality, you name it, it's promised and promised in spades, not little things, big huge mind shattering world changing things.

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BPDs are apparently often very charming, seductive, talented, creative, and attractive. And they know how to push people's buttons and appeal to emotional vulnerabilities.

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Instead what we have is a bunch of terrified sychophants tiptoeing around on eggshells lest a careless word lands them on the gallows.

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Which sounds exactly like the description of what happens to non-BPDs who get involved with BPDs. And why I hoped this info would be helpful to people trying to figure out what happened to them and how to escape/recover.

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Life would be so cool if manipulation didn't work. Unfortunately, it does.

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Well, knowledge is power, so, hopefully, armed with this knowledge, people will be better equiped to avoid being manipulated in the future (and realize that it's a pretty common trap to fall into in many situations, not just cults, so it's not worth beating yourself up over if it happened to you).

Yours,
Melinda

P.S. That reminds me of a moto for this site that I thought of, "The truth shall make you free," which is the moto for Cal Tech, too, but I think it came from Socrates or someone like that. Maybe someone with a copy of Bartlett's handy can look it up.

In a way they became what Lazaris has been teaching us not to be.

Rejoice we have learned from him in a greater arena.

We have just created a new anti-Map. ( a way not to follow)

Lets create a new Map for us and others to follow.

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Lazaris is real -- to me.

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Thank you for qualifying that statement.

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One of Lazaris' greatest tenets is that freedom is the game.

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Yes, that is one of Lazaris' tenets, but like so many of them, it is oft contradicted.
Lazaris speaks highly of freedom but does not in any way allow for it to be. He turns it into a fearful and complicated process available only through the accomplishment of endless steps and harsh battles. I'm sorry to say, I think the Lazaris information on freedom is a crock. Beyond that, I wonder why he allowed and supported the destructive mind controlled cultification of his followers through his unqualified deification of Peny. Peny may have stood for many things, but freedom was not one of them. Overpriced crystals, tackiness, and bigamy were more her forte.

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Peny et al have the right > the freedom to:
1) not have learned the lessons, nearly at all.
2) not to have grown past their past problems.
3) not to have learned from others.
4) not have been other than controllers.
In a way they became what Lazaris has been teaching us not to be.

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No, I don't agree with that one bit. It's convenient logic, but certainly not in line with anything Lazaris ever taught, and far far from in line with any sense of human responsibility, especially the responsibility one takes on when setting themselves up as the most powerful magician in the universe, and a spiritual authority. I'm honestly always shocked to hear this perspective from defenders of Lazaris. It just kind of renders the whole body of work to be completely useless, yet is used as a defense and encouragement to continue following it.

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Rejoice we have learned from him in a greater arena.

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Well, there's an emotional sound bite. What does it mean?

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We have just created a new anti-Map. ( a way not to follow)

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Is that something you learned from the Lazaris whose teachings we are, I assume, supposed to be rejoicing in? Not during the twelve years I studied the material it wasn't.

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Lets create a new Map for us and others to follow.

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Or, how about if we write our own maps and leave others to their own and rejoice when through our own effort and direction our paths meet?

I hope you don't mind me asking this question, but since you like the idea of having followers, would you care to expound on exactly where someone would find themselves should they choose to follow your map? How would they be living, what kind of car would they drive, what kind of relationships would they have, what would be their view? I'm sincerely interested in all the specifics of the place on your map that you would like others to follow you to.

Katie