In several threads people have talked about how they are not sure about whether Lazaris is real because it/she/he/they appear to perform "superhuman" feats.

One that's been mentioned is that Lazaris/Jach can talk at length in a coherent, organized manner, apparently with no notes or script. That really bugs me because people seem to forget that up until just 5000 years ago, all information was transmitted orally--all myths, religion, technology, history--everything. Up until 500 years ago, most information was still transmitted orally. It was a big controversy when universities started using written materials and students were allowed to take notes, because it was thought that it would make people "lazy." Oration and rhetoric were considered essential to a classic liberal education.

The entire Hebrew bible was originally composted and transmitted orally, and was only written down much later. The Odessey and the Illiad, also, along with the epic of Gillagamesh and many other bodies of literature.

And there are plenty of contemporary examples of great orators who can speak extemporaniously. You can probably find some in your own town at one or more of your local churches. They might even be more inspiring, entertaining, and enlightening than Lazaris.

It really bothers me that people discount the ablilties of regular old mortal humans so much.

And it's no big deal to look at people with your eyes closed either. Anybody with acting training can tell you how to do it. I tried it myself with a mirror and was pretty convincing with only a few minutes practice.

Yours,
Melinda

quote:

---

In a way they became what Lazaris has been teaching us not to be.

Rejoice we have learned from him in a greater arena.

We have just created a new anti-Map. ( a way not to follow)

---

Ten to twenty years and many thousands of dollars later, and the most significant thing we have to show for it is an anti-Map.: confused: And this is a "greater arena"? Can't wait to re-enlist.

quote:

---

Lets create a new Map for us and others to follow.

---

IMO the Map thang is one of L's lethal little hooks. Ever notice how just trying to clear and program day-to-day reality a la "Lazaris" leaves little time for cartology?

I'm focused on creating the territory. Got to pass on the whole mapmaker manipulation.

quote:

---

In a way they became what Lazaris has been teaching us not to be.

Rejoice we have learned from him in a greater arena.

We have just created a new anti-Map. ( a way not to follow)

---

Ten to twenty years and many thousands of dollars later, and the most significant thing we have to show for it is an anti-Map.: confused: And this is a "greater arena"? Can't wait to re-enlist.

quote:

---

Lets create a new Map for us and others to follow.

---

IMO the Map thang is one of L's lethal little hooks. Ever notice how just trying to clear and program day-to-day reality a la "Lazaris" leaves little time for cartology?

I'm focused on creating the territory. Got to pass on the whole mapmaker manipulation.

Jade

Hey Jade

What P,J, & M did is whats wrong. I gave up on following them 5 years ago! I have not given up on the teachings nor Lazaris.

Perhaps we all took Peny as L ...boy is that wrong.

I was being positive in trying to find the "silver lining" in that this tragedy that P,J, & M created we must pick up the pieces from.

Generally I believe that this is a tragedy for us all to discover how "un spiritual" P,J, & M really are/were.

I checked out from them 5- years ago!!!! I sensed something was quite wrong. In fact personal friends who were insiders and complained directly to Lazaris saw no change.

I am also looking for a "silver lining" so to speak. I beleive in the map concept but my 'god' it seems P,J,&M hit you all over the head with it. I dont blame you or many posters/lurkers for being wounded.

I am greatfull to now find out that my instincts were correct many years ago.

BUT WHAT THE HELL ( heaven) ARE WE GOING TO DO/LEARN FROM THIS????

Yes, for some the answer to all this is to walk away from Lazaris and for some the answer is to deny and yet there are others of us who will take the teachings we have gotten from Lazaris and use it for our growth.

For for me personally I have been trying to focus on the difference between distraction or discernment. A lot of the CS stuff can be a distraction yet one must discern. A paradox for sure.

I like what you say, Bluebird...

quote:

---

For for me personally I have been trying to focus on the difference between distraction or discernment. A lot of the CS stuff can be a distraction yet one must discern. A paradox for sure.

---

Each of us has our own filters and what comes through those filters from circumstances, experiences, thoughts, beliefs becomes our discernment and our judgment. I, too, feel that it's very important to focus on the difference between distraction and discernment. As you imply, discernment leads us forward on our path of spiritual growth and enlightenment, while distraction leads us away.

I find this to be a very helpful measuring stick as I watch myself on the path.

Crystal

Thanks for your welcome words of welcome, Bluebird and Crystal Clear. I look forward to getting to know you, and other folks. I am a heretofore lurker, turned poster.

My first post, last night, was on the Many Eyes Thread. I've jumped to here right now, as it seems this thread is more in line with what I want to talk about. I mentioned that I also am aware that the people who go up and speak to Lazaris during the crystal ceremonies (not the ones getting their crystals) are telling him how many people and how much time is left.

As many people know, prior to the beginning of each seminar, a registration list is sent from the C:S office, and a copy of this list is provided to Jach before the workshop begins. Pretty basic stuff, but there you are. Also common knowledge, at least in the past, when people register or pick up their tickets, they are asked to complete a card if C:S is missing info, such as a last name, address, etc. Not earthshaking, just thought I would mention.

As I mentioned in my other post, I have been working with Lazaris and the material for over fifteen years. Actually about twenty. I have been wary, disillusioned and now alarmed by C:S and especially the triumverate, for awhile, having heard lurid and frightening tales of the forum, which I never joined. I had other reasons also, most especially my observation of Peny in person and on tape, and the extreme right-wing stuff. The Millennium really freaked me out, and I was disgusted by the hype, before, during and after, of the lousy and cheap food and decor which was crammed down our throats as being of the choicest, highest and best quality, an ongoing project of love for 2 years. The emporer/empress has NO CLOTHES. (Oh, yeah, not to mention the repulsive receiving line where i heard you had to kneel on the floor to have an audience with the high and mighty. I passed on that scene.)

I want to tell some stories of others right now. I knew some people who were involved with C:S and Lazaris from as close to the beginning as anyone I know, maybe 1976, '77, '78?. and shared some stories. P & J (and L) were in the Atlanta area, I think Marietta, and either before and/or after that, in Florida. They talk about how they were in Florida when Lazaris came through, in 74? Then, I think, the move to GA, then back to Florida, perhaps, before Marin (CA). The early meetings were of course, small, and intimate. Word of mouth, I am sure. Jach and Peny (Jack and Penny then) were married, as everyone knows. It was Jack and Penny Purcell then, I think. While they were in Florida, or Georgia, according to one source, Lazaris (on his own -- I guess using Jach's body) contacted Michaell (then Michael Prestini :-) ) and requested that he come down and join them. It seems that my source told me that "Lazaris moved Michaell down there," or something very similar.

I vaguely remember being told Michaell was a filmmaker of some kind. Maybe a film student at Mich. State, or whatever school they all went to. I guess he was a friend of theirs. Don't remember anything about him being rich. Somewhere along the line Peny and Michaell got together, and Peny and Jach broke up. I have no info. about the order of these occurrences. Jach was heartbroken, and angry, and had to process this and everything else about the situation for quite awhile. (no shit!)

This story creeped me out, althougn I was very into Lazaris at the time I heard this, that Lazaris meddled in their lives. I was assured that everyone realized it was for the best, and that Penny and Jack were not meant to be together in that way, etc.

Another story that I heard, not as significant, but perhaps interesting. Again, while in the south, Peny expressed a desire to have a swimming pool. It was at this point that Lazaris informed them that physical, material stuff was the easiest of all to manifest, and I guess showed them the way. (Expensive seminars, millions and millions of tapes, bringing a rich friend down to be a part of it all?)

I also knew someone who began to have many of the doubts and concerns raised on this site back in the late 1980s, who actually expressed these things in a reading with Lazaris. I don't remember all of what was said, although I could maybe find out. I do remember that this person told Lazaris that they had a concern that Lazaris wasn't real. Lazaris replied that this person couldn't really prove their existence to Lazaris, either. Mentioned how easy it was to fake a birth certificate, etc. He did proceed to discuss some things in the reading that seemed very convincing that Lazaris did have a lot of private knowledge and insight into this person.

Anyway, as I mentioned in my other post, I am still undecided about whether Lazaris is a channeled entity or fig-newton of J/P's fevered and greedy imaginations. I still tend to believe that Lazaris as such exists, mostly because of my own personal experiences and perceptions. I also have wondered why he would be working with/close to/loving so intensely people who are deranged and depraved, imo. I used to have conversations with friends about how we should separate out Lazaris from C:S, but this seems odd now. If he knows all, why would he hang with them? At least why not be forthcoming about the problems? Notwithstanding my (trained?)self-doubt that MY perceptions and views on life, money, appropriate behavior etc., are all skewed.

Welcome, glad to see you writing.

quote:

---

My first post, last night, was on the Many Eyes Thread. I've jumped to here right now, as it seems this thread is more in line with what I want to talk about. I mentioned that I also am aware that the people who go up and speak to Lazaris during the crystal ceremonies (not the ones getting their crystals) are telling him how many people and how much time is left.

---

One of the things that always distracted me about the "crystal ceremony" was the "first communion" style of the whole set up.

I was put off by the false piety and silliness around lining up to have a moment with this non-guru by all us non-followers.

This is one of the reason I went to so few of the workshops and simply concentrated on the tapes. It became so much more possible not to feel like a sucker..[g]

quote:

---

As many people know, prior to the beginning of each seminar, a registration list is sent from the C:S office, and a copy of this list is provided to Jach before the workshop begins. Pretty basic stuff, but there you are. Also common knowledge, at least in the past, when people register or pick up their tickets, they are asked to complete a card if C:S is missing info, such as a last name, address, etc. Not earthshaking, just thought I would mention.

---

Well maybe not earthshaking but important.
Common sense in examining all the possibilities might not shake the earth but it sure can bring those less inclined back down to it.

quote:

---

As I mentioned in my other post, I have been working with Lazaris and the material for over fifteen years. Actually about twenty. I have been wary, disillusioned and now alarmed by C:S and especially the triumverate, for awhile, having heard lurid and frightening tales of the forum, which I never joined. I had other reasons also, most especially my observation of Peny in person and on tape, and the extreme right-wing stuff. The Millennium really freaked me out, and I was disgusted by the hype, before, during and after, of the lousy and cheap food and decor which was crammed down our throats as being of the choicest, highest and best quality, an ongoing project of love for 2 years. The emporer/empress has NO CLOTHES. (Oh, yeah, not to mention the repulsive receiving line where i heard you had to kneel on the floor to have an audience with the high and mighty. I passed on that scene.)

---

I didn't go to the Millenium intensive but from what I hear any kneeling was strictly optional.[bg]

Of course, people might has well have kneeled the whole recieving line thing was one big "kneel" as far as I am concerned.

How could they have allowed such nonsense? I mean, it brought everyone's self respect down a notch or two.

Maybe that is what it was designed to do.

Form follows function.

Again, I say it form follows function and there are no accidents so if people were lining up to meet her like she was some friggin' queen or something it is by design, not hapenstance.

And talk about contempt for the follower. I have heard many tales of how paultry and overhyped the whole event was.

This after months of hearing how Peoney was tirelessly planning the menue etc.

quote:

---

told me that "Lazaris moved Michaell down there," or something very similar.

---

Yeah, red flag time there. Lazaris discusses this from "his" perspective on "Fear the Internal War". For those willing to wade through another discussion on fear.

So much for not meddling.

quote:

---

Another story that I heard, not as significant, but perhaps interesting. Again, while in the south, Peny expressed a desire to have a swimming pool. It was at this point that Lazaris informed them that physical, material stuff was the easiest of all to manifest, and I guess showed them the way. (Expensive seminars, millions and millions of tapes, bringing a rich friend down to be a part of it all?)

---

Yeah and after all the hype about how Peny had those two companies so that Lazaris and the income generated from Lazaris would never be a neccesity.

I guess that was before she discovered that only a very small percentage of the cash endowed were willing to part with significant chunks of change for big blue paintings of dolphins jumping over pyramids.

For those unaware, Peny had a company that sold "visionary" art.

Ahem.

There was also a publishing company which despite the fact that it only published 7 or so books the entire decade plus it existed was unable to keep them in print.

quote:

---

I also knew someone who began to have many of the doubts and concerns raised on this site back in the late 1980s, who actually expressed these things in a reading with Lazaris. I don't remember all of what was said, although I could maybe find out.

---

That would be interesting, I was unaware that people had confronted Lazaris directly with questions.

quote:

---

Anyway, as I mentioned in my other post, I am still undecided about whether Lazaris is a channeled entity or fig-newton of J/P's fevered and greedy imaginations.

---

I am also still weighing all the issues. One thing I have definitely come to. Who and what Lazaris is, notwithstanding, he/they are not worthy of trust.

As I have pointed out before, how can we hold Lazaris to a lesser standard of responsibility and accountability than another human being?

Cheers,

Thanks for the welcome, and excellent comments. I was in the middle of a good :-)long answer, and going back and forth to find tasty tidbits from your post, when I lost mine! There is a lot I don't know about navigating around here.

I will go back to it tomorrow, as it is too late for me tonight! Suffice it for now to say, I really do agree with what you say about form following function. Even the kneeling thing -- how comfortable would you be having people wait in line to pay homage, and then having to bow or kneel because you are positioned in such a way that they have to do that to interact? And you don't provide them with any chairs, while you are sitting? I would feel like the a**holes that they are, (or were) personally.

I spent a lot of years ignoring common sense, or pushing it down, both in the C:S arena, and others, much to my detriment. I have wasted a lot of time. My experience of Lazaris is still confusing to me, because still very real. So, I still have a lot of questions. But I will not subject myself anymore to the bullshit that they or other organizations dish out.

quote:

---

My experience of Lazaris is still confusing to me, because still very real. So, I still have a lot of questions.

---

We have all been through this to some degree. What helped me to clear out confusion about the realness of L is remembering that people usually experience spiritual phenomenon within the context of a belief system.

"Lazaris", doing "blendings", meditations and by suggesting (consistently and repeatedly) that he would be there anytime, anyplace and forever, inserted himself into our psyches. People who would not be interested in calling upon Jesus or the Virgin Mary, are soliciting L's spiritual presence (help, guidance, companionship, protection) in the same manner as any Born Again. Only instead of incessantly referring to what the Bible says ('cause God wrote it), there is a constant mental reference to what "Lazaris" says. The "Lazaris" material becomes bible-like, "Lazaris" becomes Christ, Mary, God-like.

Though the "Lazaris" material, at least in part, is much more appealing metaphysically than the Bible, the dynamics of the relationship result in the same spiritual codependency experienced by people who are deeply involved with organized religion. Only we can see that theyare brainwashed.

A highly evolved spiritual entity would know that interjecting itself into peoples' inner space would inevitably lead to the spirit-priest experience I describe above.

The reason so many poeple turn to organized religion is the same reason we were intriqued by L. The mysterious unknown that we sense, is given instruction, structure, story, and action (meditation and ritual) under the protection of a "higher" being.

We each decide how we will quench our spiritual thirst and curiosity. The Divine delivers through the openings we accept. We made L the opening, but it could have been a Muslim prophet.

There are factions around the world killing or at least shunning each other because each has a belief system that is so "real" to them. Of course, they are all creating their own realites. They have spiritual experiences too. They create their spiritual source "real" too.

The "Lazaris" material isn't any different. When a person detaches from it, most of it looks like distracting clutter. It has been said many times here, that we let Love in as "Lazaris." We had spiritual experience through a filter, because we thought it would be quicker, easier, better and safer. But we don't need a filter. And in time, the filter, the veil thickens to the point that we think our spirituality and the veil are the same thing. And that is very confusing!

Jade

Thanks for your excellent post One of many.

The idea that we project Jesus, Buddha, Lazaris onto our spiritual experiences has a firm basis in science. I have read that people with near-death experiences are often greeted on the "other side" by Jesus, Krishna, or whomever they have come to believe is their messiah.

Just as we dream in symbolism that is relevant to us, it makes sense that formless experiences would also take on forms with which we are familiar and/or comfortable.

A short response to a post you logged on the 10th, sorry it took me so long.
When you state that Jach should disband and start soemthing new. I have an idea about what he should start....

Seriously the survivors always have to pick up the pieces, thats Jach. If he begins to comprehend this meltdown then he will have plenty of suffering to do.

Teachings can be templates for this (the Bible helps to keep creating Jesus).

HOWEVER: I do however feel that their are beings and intelligence outside us humans. I see a complete spectrum and diversity that is so much larger than most people have an inkling about.

Ergo the possibility of Lazaris exisitng outside Jach is a possibility.

quote:

---

HOWEVER: I do however feel that their are beings and intelligence outside us humans. I see a complete spectrum and diversity that is so much larger than most people have an inkling about.

Ergo the possibility of Lazaris exisitng outside Jach is a possibility.

---

I think we all agree on that point. The bigger question is if there is such a being, what is it's agenda.

I think that's a more valuable discussion.

Who cares if Lazaris is a being outside of Jach, he's still a lying, manipulative, cult inspiring jerk.

LOL...my opinion, of course.

I still wish you would answer my questions about mapmakers.

Katie

The main point for me about "maps" is that they are focused to something that one of us may really comprehend and somehow we get this point out. I do NOT think the maps that people should put out are about how someone should live, do, say think, practice spiritual practice etc etc.

So I wouldnt want anyone to follow me, my map. I would love that if my map was out there somehow and 1 to 1,000,000 get something to help them on their path, practice then that would be wonderful.

No telling, no preaching, no here is you life to do, just opinion, art, experience, technology, etc that others MIGHT want to enjoy, learn, maybe follow.

Kind of the opposite of what I think you asked about.

A map of the mountains shows trails but its easy to not follow the map at all or follow it exactly without question. The trail map should Never Demand it should be followed right?

C:S certainly had/has "followers". Maybe I am not a "follower"?

Did i answer you.???

You made a statement on another thread I think, something to the effect "let's just make maps for others to follow".

That brought up the thought for me to wonder where anyone would land if they did in fact follow the map made by any one of Lazaris' followers.

I mean, if we're making maps of value,and we are assured that we are, then we must be somewhere someone else wants to be, right?

So, I'm just wondering what the landscape looks like for a map-maker, someone who has reached a unique destination, forged into uncharted territories, as Lazaris continuously states we have.

So, what does that landscape look like for the "map makers" ?

What uncharted waters have we navigated to bring us to what unique and magical location?

I just can't help but think of someone following the map of the Bitter Rose, Piglet, Special K, or Crush Dimbulb, all who have staked their claim to being map makers and magicians.

If I followed Special K's map, where would I be? Ho ho ho, I think I know, and no no, I don't want to go. Excuse the nasties, but I'm hoping that wherever I end up, they have bras, senses of humor, and above minimum wage jobs there. A wee bit of honesty wouldn't hurt either.

Sorry, you non-forum readers, I just couldn't resist. It's an inside joke.

I've just been dying to pay homage to the miraculous and magical life of Special K, my favorite icon to the effectiveness of the L materials, and a frequent visitor to our site.

Hi Special....no, I won't forget the K!! How could I ever???

Oh, hey! Isn't there a rule against you reading here you naughty "girl"?

Sorry, iwonder. Maybe you got my point about the maps. Where would yours lead someone, specifically? Maps take us to specific destinations, not "somewhere really nice".

Everyone has something special or wonderful that they have done thought, or realized, but this is not what L is saying, it is not what he is referring to when he calls us "map makers".

I just want to know where the maps lead, and since you suggested that we make them, I thought I'd ask.

Katie

I don't think that Jach will realize the error of his ways because he is so insulated from reality by his huge ego problem.
Therefore, the only way he will pay is to be slammed behind bars, and think alot, and after many years, perhaps he will gain a bit of empathy,and begin to relize a few things about how EVIL he is...