One arguement in defense of Lazaris that has been vollyed here often is that Lazaris is seperate entity from Jach and Peny and should not be held accountable for their misdeeds. The argument goes on to say that Lazaris wouldn't interfere with whatever they had to learn by being nasty.

Ok. fine.

Assuming for the sake of argument that Lazaris is his own entity and who he says he is.

Lazaris is not a proponent of the new agey "non interferrence" philosophy.

Lazaris often talked about how if you create a person who is drowning in front of you or starving in front of you, it isn't to give you the experience of watching someone drown or starve.

Lazaris suggests we create such situations in order to extend love in the form of a helping hand or food.

So my question to those that insist that Lazaris would never interfere is what about the numbers of people running themselves into bankruptcy and spiritual despair to attend Lazaris events?

What about the numbers of people who have been abused in the forum THAT BEARS HIS NAME?

Why did Lazaris ignore that reality that he created?

It is NOT ABOUT LAZARIS SAVING ANYONE but about addressing the impact that they seem to be having on people.

At the very least to acknowedge it, if even to disown responsiblity for it.

Cannot quite figure that one out myself.

Also, you could make a pretty strong argument that Lazaris IS Concept Synergy.

What is CS without Lazaris? A bunch of tacky exhippy misfits with a bunch of overpriced crystals and an abundance of bad bahavior.

Sounds inviting right?

No.

Without Lazaris they are nothing, so you cannot really say that Lazaris is unaware of that or does not accept responsiblity for being THAT IMPORTANT to so many people.

Thoughts?

Jeremiah

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Also, you could make a pretty strong argument that Lazaris IS Concept Synergy.

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It's so true that without "Lazaris", C:S wouldn't exist. I think it's symptomatic of the cult impact that so many people want to rationalize that there is a separation between the two.

And "Lazaris" could not exist without Concept:Synergy. "Lazaris" wouldn't be known even if he were legitimate. There would be no exposure or access without the intense promotion of C:S.

Neither has a place in the public realm without the other.

Jade

If a man had done any of this, he would be quickly called a pig or worse. How can anyone even attempt to lower the standard for a "spiritual entity?" If anything, should be at least equal to or above that of an enlightened man (woman).

So, if I try to consider the premise that Jach and Peny are not Lazaris, I am faced with a dilema. I try to be a good man, and I would not have allowed those things to happen if I could at all help it. I would have tried to correct the percieved injustices even at the expence of ruining a friendship.

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It's so true that without "Lazaris", C:S wouldn't exist. I think it's symptomatic of the cult impact that so many people want to rationalize that there is a separation between the two.

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Yeah, I think you are on to something with that.

I think your observation [in other threads] that Lazaris positioning himself as an intermediary between his followers and the "other dimensions" as being disempowering is very insightful.

Funny isn't it how Lazaris is willing to broker our experiences with say the "mystical other" or the archetypes to minimize the "danger" and yet he offers no assistance to serve as a broker between the follower and the rancid, billious behavior of the people that push, promote and live off his words.

All the arguments about how Lazaris is not CS are very shallow, imo.

Not that the people making them are shallow, no not at all.

I think those that argue for seperate standards for Lazaris and CS are trying to hold onto value that they think came from Lazaris when in actual fact it came from them, their own spiritual integrity and connection to all that is.

Lazaris did not invent metapysics or spirituality or the concept of reality creation or ANYTHING.

They are not one in the same.

I wonder if people think if they question Lazaris they have to question metaphysics and spirituality in general.

Funny how they always assert in their argument the danger of throwing the baby away with the bathwater, when in fact it seems to me the fear operating there is that the baby is as indespensible as the bathwater.

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And "Lazaris" could not exist without Concept:Synergy. "Lazaris" wouldn't be known even if he were legitimate. There would be no exposure or access without the intense promotion of C:S.

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Again, as I said and hopefully if any of them are reading this they will see it again:

Without Lazaris they are nothing more than a bunch of misfits with an armload of overpriced crystals and an abundance of bad behavior.

Cheers,

In your post to Jade, you wrote:

[[[I think those that argue for seperate standards for Lazaris and CS are trying to hold onto value that they think came from Lazaris when in actual fact it came from them, their own spiritual integrity and connection to all that is.]]]

THAT IS SOOOOOOO TRUE!!!!!!! You said it beautifully and I hope that all who read that will recognize that you are talking about them...and recognize this in themselves.

to you, Jeremiah,

Marilyn

This talk of separating Jach from Lazaris, and trying to reconcile our spirituality without Lazaris is a pretty key issue IMO.

I was thinking yesterday about my interactions with the notorious MOVE organization in Philly. For those who don't know, MOVE was a controversial back to the earth group which was the subject of two major confrontations with government officials, very much like the WACO debaucle. The second confrontation resulted in the death by fire resulting from a bomb dropped on the home of 11 people, 4 adults and 7 children. Two city blocks of houses were also destroyed in the inferno.

I got to know the MOVE members because I took my then high school aged daughter to the trial of the sole adult survivor of the bombing as a civics exercise. Given that she wasn't learning anything in her high school, I though it a good idea to allow her a peek into an historic trial.

The MOVE members were largely young black people who had been rescued from drug addiction and prostitution and homelessness by John Africa, the founder and leader of the group. These were actually very sweet and sincere people who were fanatical followers of this man.

Knowing MOVE members was interesting. One minute you'd be talking to a very normal person, but at the mention of John Africa, a glaze would come over the eyes, and the rhetoric would start spouting; verbatim dissertations from the head of their leader.

After hearing the rhetoric a few times I began to identify that it was pretty much an amalgamation of the teachings of Mao, Marx and Lenin, with a few original twists thrown in about the evils of technology. I had studied all this stuff in my radical days, probably like most of us ex-hippy baby boomers.

What was "same old same old" to me was radical, brilliant, and awe-inspiring to these simple, uneducated folk. Some of them could barely read, and they found the raps from the head of their leader to be profound and life changing. John A did succeed at getting the drug addicts cleaned up and the prostitutes and throw aways off the streets.
He taught the gospel of health, put them on a strict nutritional and exercise regimen, got them strong and healthy, and sat them down for hours on end to fill their heads with his rhetoric. A cult by any definition.

These people referred to the re-worked information as "The wisdom of John Africa" and literally laid down their lives and the lives of their children for him and the wisdom they originated with him.

There are 7 or so people serving life without parole prison sentences for John Africa, and they are all still firm and true believers. They are routinely beaten, harrassed and confined in solitary, yet they remain true and strong. Most of the children who burned to cinder in the bombing were theirs, but they stand tall in their belief.

All this because this guy read a few books and razzle dazzled his followers with warmed over information that he lifted from other sources.

I think what is beginning to amaze me is the profound need and desire most of us have for teachers and leaders, and the tenacity with which we hold on to them.

I really believe that the only hope we have for that beautiful future Lazaris keeps promising is for each of us one by one to stand up as our own authorities with full confidence that all we need is already given and straining to be free. I believe that this is the state of Dominion that Jachzaris pays lip service to, but will dangle as a carrot as long as he can get away with it.

We love the dream, because it resonates so strongly within us. Jachzaris is making very sure that it remains only a dream, and an expensive one to boot.

Time for a wake up call.

Katie

This talk of separating Jach from Lazaris, and trying to reconcile our spirituality without Lazaris is a pretty key issue IMO.

I was thinking yesterday about my interactions with the notorious MOVE organization in Philly. For those who don't know, MOVE was a controversial back to the earth group which was the subject of two major confrontations with government officials, very much like the WACO debaucle. The second confrontation resulted in the death by fire resulting from a bomb dropped on the home of 11 people, 4 adults and 7 children. Two city blocks of houses were also destroyed in the inferno.

I got to know the MOVE members because I took my then high school aged daughter to the trial of the sole adult survivor of the bombing as a civics exercise. Given that she wasn't learning anything in her high school, I though it a good idea to allow her a peek into an historic trial.

The MOVE members were largely young black people who had been rescued from drug addiction and prostitution and homelessness by John Africa, the founder and leader of the group. These were actually very sweet and sincere people who were fanatical followers of this man.

Knowing MOVE members was interesting. One minute you'd be talking to a very normal person, but at the mention of John Africa, a glaze would come over the eyes, and the rhetoric would start spouting; verbatim dissertations from the head of their leader.

After hearing the rhetoric a few times I began to identify that it was pretty much an amalgamation of the teachings of Mao, Marx and Lenin, with a few original twists thrown in about the evils of technology. I had studied all this stuff in my radical days, probably like most of us ex-hippy baby boomers.

What was "same old same old" to me was radical, brilliant, and awe-inspiring to these simple, uneducated folk. Some of them could barely read, and they found the raps from the head of their leader to be profound and life changing. John A did succeed at getting the drug addicts cleaned up and the prostitutes and throw aways off the streets.
He taught the gospel of health, put them on a strict nutritional and exercise regimen, got them strong and healthy, and sat them down for hours on end to fill their heads with his rhetoric. A cult by any definition.

These people referred to the re-worked information as "The wisdom of John Africa" and literally laid down their lives and the lives of their children for him and the wisdom they originated with him.

There are 7 or so people serving life without parole prison sentences for John Africa, and they are all still firm and true believers. They are routinely beaten, harrassed and confined in solitary, yet they remain true and strong. Most of the children who burned to cinder in the bombing were theirs, but they stand tall in their belief.

All this because this guy read a few books and razzle dazzled his followers with warmed over information that he lifted from other sources.

I think what is beginning to amaze me is the profound need and desire most of us have for teachers and leaders, and the tenacity with which we hold on to them.

I really believe that the only hope we have for that beautiful future Lazaris keeps promising is for each of us one by one to stand up as our own authorities with full confidence that all we need is already given and straining to be free. I believe that this is the state of Dominion that Jachzaris pays lip service to, but will dangle as a carrot as long as he can get away with it.

We love the dream, because it resonates so strongly within us. Jachzaris is making very sure that it remains only a dream, and an expensive one to boot.

Time for a wake up call.

Katie

Thanks for the story about MOVE. It really shows how someone can do so much good and so much harm at the same time. And how people can blind themselves to the harm because of their gratitude for the good.

In a way it's beautiful that people can feel so much gratitude and loyalty. John Africa would have been deserving of that gratitude had he not stolen these people's souls in the process. For that, he deserves nothing but contempt.

This is very much like the Lazaris phenomonom, but with one major difference - these people really did experience miraculous change. Though that change was ruined by JA's megamania, it still represents more profound change than I've heard attributed to the Lazaris teachings. Some of these people were virtually dead when they met JA. Their zeal, IMO, is severely misplaced, but one cannot argue that they are not now alive.

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I think what is beginning to amaze me is the profound need and desire most of us have for teachers and leaders, and the tenacity with which we hold on to them.

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That authority issue it is. Seems like there is a codependent relationship with authority itself. Only way to shake it is to be the "author" of your own life.