We have had many people write here about their traumatic experiences with Jach and Peny and Concept Synergy.

To my knowledge, nowhere on this board has anyone ever denied or offered an alternate,positive, view of these people or the company they represent.

What is offered is the "Jach and Peny are just human" defense.

There are a couple of things about that defense that do not sit well with me.

First of all, I sense a possible agenda in that argument of using shame to silence people who have been hurt by Concept Synergy .

The "only human" defense seems to imply that those who have suffered at the hand of CS and now want to evaluate and question that experience "caused" their own pain by expecting something super human from Jach and Peny.

The implication is that if they were more spiritual or more of an adult they wouldn't have done that.

The implication is that a super human status is being projected onto Jach and Peny and that they are the unfair recipients of that projection.

In other words, it makes Jach and Peny into victims or martyrs to a great cause.

They are not victims,in my opinion, they are perpetrators.

True, whoever was victimized by Jach and Peny created that reality. And maybe they created it for a very good reason, none of us are in a position to say or to judge that.

The way off the victim gameboard is to acknowledge first that you are playing victim and then to get off it.

You cannot get out of victim by pretending you were in a run of the mill "human" situation where nobody bears any responsiblity for anything because they are "human".

If you were playing victim someone else was playing perpetrator.

and that someone else in this instance is Jach, Peny and Concept Synergy.

If you are going to be honest about the game, you have to be honest about the whole game, imo, and that involves analysing and understanding the dynamics of the perpetrator.

It also seems to me that it could be inferred from the "only human" defense that all of us have done things and behaved in ways we wished we hadn't and as such we would be well advised to look the other way lest someone call us to task for our human errors.

But the implication there seems to be that all human misdeeds are all on a relativstic scale and have relative impact and therefore and none is worse than any other.

Following that "logic" the whole range of human experience can be dismissed in a phrase.

That doesn't strike me as so spiritual if your spirituality is your relationship with the all that is.

No shit Jach and Peny are only human. That goes without saying.

What Jach and Peny and Concept Synergy have done to people over the years has been SUB human, imo.

And those that continue to accept Concept Synergy's abuse and disrespect and call it "honoring their privacy " or "accepting their humanness" or spiritual evolvement do so at great personal expense in my opinion.

One time Jach called me early in the morning playing politician over an incident that literally had nothing to do with me.

He was trying to smooth over a conflict between Peny and someone else and probably thought that by schmoozing me he could achieve his goal quicker.

He blathered on and on about how Peny made a mistake with this person and that she was "human too".

But the whole conversation from him seems completely disingenous to me now in retrospect.

It really seemed to me that they had gotten into a habit of justifying their behaviour by saying they were only human when they got caught doing something so unacceptable that it couldn't be ignored.

It appeared to me as though they were in the habit of patting themselves on the back for their "humility" whenever they copped to their "human" status after doing something nasty.

Funny how someone can be touted as the most important person on the planet one minute and then "only human" when it suits her the next.

Sounds expedient to me.

But the proof is in the action isn't it? Have they altered or changed any of their greedy nasty ways in the last years?

Yes, we all do things we are not proud of but how many of us set ourselves up to be the stewards of spiritual enlightenment and from that elevated position spiritually, emotionally and mentally abuse people for years?

Cheers,

Jeremiah

I was reading in Jeremiah's post - "To my knowledge, nowhere on this board has anyone ever denied or offered an alternate, positive, view of these people or the company they represent." I wanted to share some of my experiences with Jach, Peny and C/S. I have avoided this previously because I do not want to be identified by my experiences. At this point, I still want to maintain my C/S forum membership.

I've been involved with Lazaris since 1988-89. For many years I just read and reread the books. I loved them and finally went to an evening around 1990. It blew me away. I didn't get half of what he said and I took bazillions of notes. I just "knew" this was the best source of info I had ever come across and I'd still feel that way to this day but I'm now rethinking things. The info just seemed unparalleled and so far ahead of any "human" source.

I finally started buying tapes in the mid-'90's and I joined the forum around '96-'97. I never was involved with the Compuserve forum. My initial experiences with the forum, Jach, Peny and the "Orlando Gang" were pleasant and informative. I didn't and still don't know anyone personally who studies Lazaris and rarely do I ever meet or talk to anyone who has even heard of him. (You've probably guessed I'm not from California -(s)) When I heard about the new forum I couldn't wait to become a member and finally converse with people who were involved with and studied Lazaris.

Anyway, I jumped right in and started asking general questions I had about spirituality. I had no experience posting and aside from worrying about sounding stupid or that no one would reply to me, I had no concerns about what I said being "appropriate". The usual - Jach, et.al. responded immediately to my questions and I was delighted. Not Jach, but the others could be very blunt but no one was unkind. I was still studying various sources at the time and brought them into the discussion and I do remember feeling they were dismantled and I was shown how Lazaris was a superior source. But I accepted all that because these people had studied Lazaris much longer than I and I thought knew so much more than I did.

Later I got involved in the numerology threads and Jach was very kind and helpful answering my questions and helping me with figuring out how I wanted to change my name.
I remembered thinking, "Why is he taking so much time to reply to all of these questions and help all these people with their names when he doesn't have to?" The answer I came up with at the time was he was very kind and giving and was really committed to the forum and helping people.

I was still posting when all the progesterone threads were running and then didn't post for quite a few years. I'd read from time to time and when I did I would sometimes come across a slaughtering. I would read and be amazed at what I didn't know about neg. ego, martyr, etc. because I would always be reading the post that started it all and I'd be thinking "What's so bad about that?" or "Wow, I could have just as easily said that." or "Well, shoot, I see it that way too." I would read and think and think until I could see how the person being slaughtered was in the wrong. And, I actually would end up "seeing" this.
But, inside somewhere, I think I knew something was not right about all this. Just like everyone else I came up with all kind of ways to explain or justify the stuff I saw and was horrified by. If you read along enough, you just learn how to post and what to say so it won't happen to you. Of course, that makes for a pretty dead forum and I basically stopped posting because I didn't want to go anywhere near where I might become part of a feeding frenzy.

During this time I also went to one weekend. During a blending Lazaris said something to me and it seemed directly in response to something I had said "in my head" to Lazaris the night before in a blending. That was very meaningful and I still can't explain it except for I may have raised a similar issue in a request for a reading (which I didn't receive) many years before. It is conceivable, that they try to "speak" to first time seminar attendees and use info they have to make it seem very "real". I remember being very overwhelmed with all in the information at the weekend and the intensity of it and half way through Saturday I was crying hysterically to my husband on the phone that I wanted to come home. I thought it was neg. ego so I fought it and stayed the weekend and felt glad I did and didn't cop out. Maybe it was my HS telling me to get out?.

That takes me up to this past year when I started posting again and when I really started to notice that something seemed very wrong.

I've gotta' go for now but will continue with my thoughts about this past year.

Thanks for the space to share my experiences.

Wow, with a few changes, I could have written that post myself.

What you just described is a cult indoctrination. To the letter.

I don't have time to post more, but wanted to thank you for sharing.

Thanks for writing.

quote:

---

Anyway, I jumped right in and started asking general questions I had about spirituality. I had no experience posting and aside from worrying about sounding stupid or that no one would reply to me, I had no concerns about what I said being "appropriate". The usual - Jach, et.al. responded immediately to my questions and I was delighted. Not Jach, but the others could be very blunt but no one was unkind. I was still studying various sources at the time and brought them into the discussion and I do remember feeling they were dismantled and I was shown how Lazaris was a superior source. But I accepted all that because these people had studied Lazaris much longer than I and I thought knew so much more than I did.

---

I had the same experience when I first joined the forum. I think many of us were excited about being able to discuss the material with others who had been working with it. I know I certainly was.

Prior to my involvement with the forum I had never had personal conact with Jach and Peny and didn't even know the "gang" existed.

I also had no knowledge of what went on in the Compuserve forum [only that it had existed] and I really thought this was going to be an exciting thing.

One of the reasons I try to put time into posting on this board is that I wrote so much on the Jach and Lazaris forum from its inception in '96 until I quit this past January of 2001.

I feel a certain amount of responsiblity for having put so much out there on that forum and for not having jumped in during the numerous burnings and slashings that I witnessed.

I dont use my real name on this board and I have my reasons for that. At least I can put my thoughts out there and people can take it or leave it.

In a way, I feel my silence on the J&L board was tacit participation in the cruelty and I hope that by writing here I can balance some of that out.

I feel this because I was so actively participating in other discussions that when I didn't offer an opinion it might have looked like I agreed.

To my amazement, I heard that someone referred to me as being "one of them" in a conversation a few months ago and that really brought home to me how perceptions can be created, falsely in this case as I was never a part of their "inner circle".

I rationalized and justified like mad what I saw in the forum. Often refusing to even read a thread after I could see where it was going so as not to have to deal with it.

I almost never wrote in the political threads not only because I hate the gang's politics [which I do] but because I was more interested in discussing the material and how to work with it.

It wasn't so much that I disagreed with them politically, but I found them to be extremely naive, gullable and reactionary in a political sense and I couldn't stand that energy.

Pretty quickly I noticed that Jach was the only CS person interested in discussing the actual material. He seemed eager to talk about it in fact, and he and I had several exchanges through the years.

Peny on the other hand almost never wrote about the material itself but was always gassing about some outrage or another usually of a political nature or talking about crystals or how to be healthy by gobbling pills and lotions.

At the time I tried to convince myself she was past talking about it but it soon became clear she didn't even know much of what Lazaris discussed on tapes and in seminars and she made some comments that would lead anyone to think she didnt get the basics of metaphysics at all.

The rest of the gang had no discernable interest in discussing metaphysics except to attack someone who wasn't showing the proper respect for Lazaris.

It is pretty clear to me the whole dynamic of the gang was to cultivate and express outrage of one form or another as a way to unify them and reduce their own deeper fears of suffering such an attack from Peny. It was a way to curry favor and keep themselves out of the "hotseat"

Of course by the time we met them the gang was well practiced and knew how to avoid Peny's wrath for the most part.

I think the forum really existed to satisfy Peny's appetite for control and power over others. It gave her a focus for all that hostility.

They really did seem to enjoy the carnage. In my view it was because they had such a rocky foundation and no real personal authority.

All of their "power" came from their close proximity to Peny and by implication, Lazaris.

I have written elsewhere that I believe the gangs paranoia and cruelty were simply emblematic of the twisted pyschological power structure they had developed sucking up to Peny.

In many ways I think they were an extension of Peny's psyche, mimicing her style and temperment her for her approval and always deferring to her out of fear of abandonment.

If Peny read a book, they all read the book. If Peny liked something, the Loooved it etc....

In my opinion, the "outsiders" who were attacked in the forum were simply a kind of sick fodder the gang used to cement their relationship with Peny and feed her very real paranoid fantasies about the world outside her "compound" which she rarely left.

The more the gang fed off the "power" they got from their association with Peny the more determined they were to keep it that way.

This is just my view, based on my observations and experiences.

I don't know if it was so much a progression as it was an unfoldment of a dynamic they couldn't hide because they didn't understand it.

I often thought how horrible it must really be down in Orlando because this is the face they show to the world. This was their public face.

God only knows what it was like when the "let their hair down" behind closed doors.

Cheers,

I just had to reply quickly to your post - it made me remember something. I'll write more on this past year later.

When I came home from that weekend, I went to pick up my kids at my mom's house. She kind of sheepishly asked me if this was a cult. I'm sure I gave her a "you are so retarded and will never understand" look and told her that no, it definitely was not a cult. Interestingly enough. my mother-in-law, who lives in the same town had the same concerns before I left for the weekend. Again I assured her (nicer though, I can be more condescending with my own mom - (s)) that I was find and this was in no way a cult. Funny how these "spiritual know- nothings" may have had this one nailed. Humility comes in many forms...

More later.

Dogstar

You mentioned in your most recent post in this thread that Jach seemed to be the only one interested in discussing the material. Yes! I saw that too. I don't think I ever saw a thread on the Lazaris material that Peny participated in. As you said, she was involved in political, crystal, and health discussions mostly. One of the big clues for me that something was amiss was the Presidential Election threads. That huge mess in FL after the election and not one word from Peny. Something was definitely up.

More later.

A quick response to you too...I'm in the midst of cleaning out our garage, and taking "Fool" breaks in between!

I had to eat humble pie on that question myself. I'm sure that most of my friends and family regarded Con:Sin to be a cult, and of course, like you, Ted and I just laughed it off, smugly too, I might add, you know, being such wise Mapmakers and all!

Now I'm very very proud and happy to announce that I know Con:Sin is a cult. I feel that way, because it allows me to know that I'm out of it. I know what a cult is, that I was in one, and I'm out of it, free and clear. I am no longer plagued by a million unanswered questions and inconsistancies which I denied were there.

That's a whole lot happier place for me now than the frustrated, never good enough, frightened of disapproval, smug Mapmaker spot ever was. Cripes! Smug about what?

I gave my successes to them, and ate my failures and imperfections. (or served them up to others in self-serving little bits of shame. How well I learned my lessons!).

Now I own myself, every little bit of me. It's mine, all mine, and I'm feeling fine! Much nicer for those around me too, I would think.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. I think I remember the thread to which you are refering about your name change. I think numerology is a subject which was particularly dear to Peny and the Gang, hence their helpfulness.

I agree that Jach was usually helpful and respectful. With one major exception - anything that made Peny uncomfortable. Then he can be as venomous as anyone. I think he's more zealous in his defense of Peny than in his defense of Lazaris. I'm sure Jach is well aware of this site. It must drive him nuts. Tsk tsk!

Is it shadenfreud to delight in the failure of a control freak's attempts at control? If so, I'm guilty.

It's your negative ego!

I've long since moved past the need to be controlled by my negative ego. I now float in the ethers with Baba Blind Lemon Pie, Sri Groove Das (servant of the Groove) and Latrinis.

Cheers, Ted

Lovely flowers. Looks like you have found a new florist!

That "negative ego" is poifict.

Love,
Jade

This is an excellent thread. Very interesting, informative, insightful Jeremiah and Dogstar.

I wanted to continue posting about my experiences this past year with the C/S forum. My impression of what I've seen in the forum is that it's gotten progressively nastier. I completely missed Forum Storm but started to read again when Jach announced no more traveling (I think last summer). I witnessed the crucifixion of that girl who posted that she had other than completely happy feelings about Jach's decision. As I read along, it again confirmed for me how careful you had to be while posting and not reveal your true thoughts if they were in anyway contrary to the popular opinion. I also remember thinking - "I'm so glad that's not me". She seemed to really struggle and apologize and nothing seemed good enough. In the midst of all this Peny laid into one of there own employees. All of this was amazing to watch.
I also remember Peny saying about some guy from California who made some sort of remark about Jach and an elevator that if she were there she'd have hit him or slapped his face. I remember thinking - "Why is it ok for you to say that stuff but it's not ok for this man to say something about Jach?"
I'm rambling here - but the jist is unless you had something only positive to say you weren't supposed to say anything at all. Now I rationalized this by seeing their point that you should process these feelings in private but then, what point is this forum. It becomes ridiculous when you think about it. You wouldn't be able to trust any of the info there because it had all been sterilized into what C/S wanted people to see and read and think.

In the fall I became interested in trying progesterone again. I posted a question in the Health and Healing section. Peny immediately replied and told me she could answer my question but she wouldn't because it was too much like giving medical advise and that had become to risky and for me to search the internet. My basic question was - if one is taking progesterone at higher doses than typically recommended and for the whole cycle, then how does this not simulate pregnancy and how do you still menstruate.
I tried to rephrase my question several times - I wasn't asking for medical advise just a scientific explanation of how it was possible to do this and still have your period. Peny's posts were short and cordial but she would not answer my question. In the process of this I noticed something I had most likely seen before but didn't really pay attention to. If Peny posted in a thread, depending on what she said she could completely stop all discussion. After she posted to me I started to get private E-mail. This was something I never experienced before in the forum. Since the original progesterone threads had various people posting their experiences and products etc. I was confused about why there could be no discussion now. I asked in the forum about this and Peny told me the government has gotten alot nastier about people without medical licenses giving advise. I accepted that but the whole private E-mail thing was tedious. It was much nicer when people could post in a thread and you'd have a whole mix of ideas.
For any of you who are still forum members, you can still read this thread in the Health and Healing section. I think the last post was in Feb.2001. It was in this thread in, I think, Feb. that an Orlando Gang member posted a reply from Peny to someone saying that Peny didn't have time to post but everything was fine and she'd be back to posting soon but here's what Peny wanted me to write to you. I remember thinking that was strange and Peny had been missing from the forum now since Oct.

Anyway since I got no answers in the forum I did what Peny suggested and started my own search into progesterone. Someone told me that the "scientist" Peny referred to was Raymond Peat. (I think someone mentioned the "scientist" in another post in this forum and speculated it was a muscle tester that got dropped eventually - I strongly believe it was Raymond Peat and I do not believe Ray Peat has anything to do with muscle testing - so, I don't think this muscle testing person and Ray Peat are one and the same). I was extremely grateful for this info because I was already looking into Ray Peat as a good source of info and now that I was pretty sure this was Peny's "scientist", I felt I was on the right track. But stuff really started to bother me. I had always assumed this "scientist" was a private source Peny hired and could afford to do so. I do not know for sure Peny's scientist was Raymond Peat but my investigations lead me to believe this. If you read Ray Peat's books and then look at the posts where she refers to this "scientist" the info is practically word for word out of his books. What upset me is why didn't she just say - I work with Ray Peat - or here's what Ray Peat has to say about this. And also - ANYONE can consult with this "scientist". When I got his books and I saw that you could just call and set up a phone appt. I couldn't believe she'd keep this a secret and make this seem like a private scientist only they had access to. I've talked to him many times. Very nice man and very knowledgeable. Anyone here can consult with Ray Peat. This I just couldn't reconcile in my mind along with discrepancies in what Peny said in the original progesterone/pregnenolone threads and what I was learning from Ray Peat himself. I knew I couldn't post any of my feelings or thoughts on the forum but I really needed some clarification on this one.
There was secrecy and squelching of info here and I couldn't reconcile that with the Peny that Lazaris had described and the Peny who I truly believed never lied and was always speaking her highest truth. I E-mailed her privately about this - I think in December. I truthfully didn't really expect a reply and I did not get one. But I had to ask these questions. Now granted, she may not have been able to reply if she was sick.
All this made me start to have very serious doubts about C/S and Peny et. al.

This is probably already too long. It's hard for me to put all this into writing. It seems to take alot of writing to say what I want to say.

I'll write more later.

Dogstar

[This message has been edited by dogstar (edited 06-03-2001).]

Wow, this is very interesting! We had some posts going back and forth in here in which we discussed the fact that it is a prosecutable offense to dispense medical information without a license, and how Peny was routinely doing that.

Now we find that she started backpeddling on that.

I tried to find the threads and dates where we were having that discussion, so we could compare notes on the timing of her change of heart about playing doctor.

Anyone remember where and when we were having this discussion? This search engine here isn't too groovy.

Thanks for filling us in dogstar.

More thoughts on your post. Your theory about Peny's private scientist is also very interesting. Many, many times she alluded to this mysterious counsellor of hers, and implied that he was a big supporter of Lazaris and Con:Sin, kind of quietly working behind the scenes to provide scientific validation to the Lazaris teachings, etc.

Peny was really big on credentials. Since her advanced degree was awarded by some dubious disembodied institution, I guess she craved some more earthly forms of validation.

Have you ever asked this man if he spoke to Peny, or mentioned that she may have been "using" his information, and possibly even crediting some of it to Lazaris?

I think you've stumbled (mined) one more piece of the Friend or Fraud puzzle.

I just noticed that the Lazaris site public library does not contain articles by Peny on progesterone, in which she plays doctor big big time. Are they in the private library, or have they been completely removed? They were there when we started writing our posts about how illegal it was to have them there.

Anyone up for reporting back about whether or not those articles are still on the private part of the Lazaris site?

dogstar, do you think it's possible that the timing of your questions corresponded to our discussions here, and that Peny might have been suspicious to find out if you were a plant. Might that explain her e-mail interest in you?

Also, I wasn't clear from your post whether it was Peny or someone else doing the emailing. Do you still have those mails by any chance?

No worries about the length of your post, you are being very clear.

Katie

I am enjoying your posts.

I haven't been in forum for while but I do recall that Peny did not post on metaphysical threads. Sometimes in the crystal cave she sent energy and always with caveat "remember to forgive yourself." But that was it.

As for the scientist, I offer this. There was a man in Santa Monica who did muscle testing. His name was Steve and he saw lots of Lazaris people over the years. Peny and Jach flew him to Florida and he got calls daily I seem to recall. But his mistake was to announce to everyone that "jach calls me every day." That did it for ol Steve. Now, Steve did not know much about nutrition but used some type of homeopathic remedies as well as extensive muscle testing.

Steve actually told a friend of a friend that she had some disease (can't recall now) when it had been previously undiagnosed.

My sense is that people blamed some of the remedies Lazaris gave at longevity workshops for not working and it possibly created legal problems. I'm only guessing here. I remember him giving dosages of hydrogen peroxide and stuff like that. If you get the dosage wrong and gargle with it or something it will totally burn your insides out. And with people on forum giving their power away so easily it would not surprise me if there were legal problems.

Looking forward to your next installment.

Thank you for asking questions and asking for clarification of somethings I wrote. Like I said, this is hard for me to put into writing and I want very much to be as accurate as possible and not misrepresent anything.

The thread I started on progesterone I'm pretty sure was early Oct. 2000. So, Peny's posts to me where she was not willing to give me info were all dated then. Does that correspond with when you started this site and/or had discussions about giving medical advise?

Yes, the progesterone/pregnenolone threads are still in the private library. You and I may disagree on the medical advise issue. My personal experience is that I can get practically zip from a licensed M.D. Even ones I've been associated with who have a wholistic approach have been arrogant and frankly, when it comes to progesterone, thyroid, pregnenolone, etc. I think I know circles around the traditional and non-traditional doctors I've been associated with. So, I was very appreciative of the original progesterone/pregnenolone threads. Anyone finding out a health thing they're excited about and sharing what they know is fine in my opinion even to the point they say it "completely safe" etc. since this is just their opinion. Now in Peny's case, the argument could be made she should have been extra careful because of the position she was in, the trust people had in her and the weight that was given to what she said. I, myself, am still glad those threads and other health threads existed and Peny said what she did because otherwise I doubt I'd have ever run into some of this info.

What I do have a problem with is I don't ever remember Peny ever disclosing her sources of the information she provided. Things were said like "the scientist we consult with" or "we get our (whatever) from a private source". This would disturb me because it felt like someone saying - "Here, (blank) is a great cure for (whatever). We found this out from our own private scientist. We have our own private source of the stuff. We're not going to share any of this info with you. Good luck trying to figure it out. By the way, aren't we brilliant?"

Now at the time I rationalized this by saying to myself Peny doesn't owe me anything. I should be grateful for whatever info I get and not expect her to do all the work for me. But -
I recently (when I was doing a search under Peny North and found this site) found a crystal chat thing and there were a few posts on it from Peny North. She was blasting someone for posting that crystals should never be used for healing cancer. Peny's main issue with this person was how dare they post such a thing without completely disclosing where and how they got this information so that others could check this out and so forth and so on.

Peny was posting to this person exactly what I felt about Peny's posts in the C/S forum. No one to my knowledge ever dared to ask who this scientist was so that we all could check out the info for ourselves. But again, I strongly believe it is Raymond Peat. Someone told me this and she got that information while talking with someone at a seminar. This person also told me that she was told Lazaris had expressed in various private consultations high regards for Raymond Peat's work. In addition, after you read Peat's books you see alot of the info. that was on the forum proceeded by "the scientist we work with told us ..."

I really feel Peny was wrong in not disclosing her sources of information, especially now that I am pretty sure that it was a public source and anyone could have had access to it. And she apparently expected this of other people when she was operating in other arenas.

I never asked Ray Peat directly if he knew Peny, etc. I did, at the beginning of our first conversation, mention that I heard of him through C/S and he said something like "Oh yes!" - that just confirmed for me that he knew them and worked with them.

To clarify, the E-mails I spoke of receiving were not from Peny. They were from very kind people who knew I was trying to get some answers and it wasn't going to happen on the forum and they were nice enough to E-mail me with there own experiences and information. I E-mailed Peny in Dec. directly asking her if Ray Peat was the scientist she consulted with and if so why did she choose to keep that information from everyone. I also, like I said, had found some discrepancies between what Peny said in the old progesterone/prenenolone threads and what I was currently discussing with Ray Peat. I felt these should be brought out into the open on the forum and discussed but I knew if I just posted this stuff I'd be slaughtered so I decided to ask her privately in an E-mail about the discrepancies. Like I said - I got no reply from her.

One other thing for now. At the end of March someone posted a thread in the Health and Healing section of the forum with a link in it to a site with an article by Ray Peat on coconut oil. A day or two after I saw the post I went back to check out the link and the post was gone. I thought I was loosing my mind - "I know I saw this..." (You all have experienced disappearing posts - this was my first time - I had no idea they just deleted posts at their discretion)
I was horrified and upset and immediately posted in the same section asking if anyone else had seen this post or was I crazy etc.
Very shortly thereafter my post disappeared. Now I was really loosing it - "What is going on here - why are they doing this?" I called the office and they said to E-mail this person in forum mgmt. At the time my ability to send E-mail was down so I posted to her in, I think, the Forum Guidelines section and asked what was up with the disappearing posts.
Within minutes that post disappeared. Then I received an E-mail telling me they would check into it but there was no need for me to start a thread accusing people of deleting my posts if I simply have a question as to why I see a post is no longer there. No where had I accused anyone of deleting posts. They just kept disappearing and I was horrified to find out that they were just deleting them. I was also told in the future to E-mail forum mgmt. if I had a question about a post. I interpreted this as don't question anything in the light of day. They did get back to me with an answer - they were writing what Jach told them to say - the link was to a commercial site and that was not allowed on the forum because it would allow for it to be turned into a bulletin board kind of place. They did provide me with the link. I can tell you these E-mails were not signed with Much Love.
No one was nasty but I got a big taste of the controls that are in place there. It was an eye opener.

Thanks for the space to share.

Dogstar

[This message has been edited by dogstar (edited 06-03-2001).]

[This message has been edited by dogstar (edited 06-03-2001).]

I wonder why on earth people who had access to an all wise entity 24/7 would need a muscle tester?

Anyway, a lot of good either of them did Peny.

The thing about Peny giving out medical advice is that it's illegal.

I'm no fan of the allopathic medical community, and certainly a big believer and supporter of alternative therapies. I worked in the natural products industry for years and as a personal assistant to a fairly prominent herbalist/author for several years, and was involved during that time with the construction of the legislative controls over vitamins, supplements and herbs and the claims that can be made for them. I was part of a lobby to the Senate and House, and worked with the herbalist's attorney who had been a legislative aide to Orrin Hatch, a big champion of what we called the Freedom of Information Act, who spoke on behalf of the supplement industry before congress.

So, I've seen all sides of this information issue, and I'm a big supporter of the laws which prohibit every zealot and self-proclaimed expert from offering up medical advice.

We have amongst us one of the most knowledgable and astute people on supplements and alternative medicines I have ever known in our ever popular and hysterically verbose Audrey. I've known Aud for a long time, and although she is a fountain of information, I've never known her to diagnose or prescribe. That is what is illegal, and that is what Peny was doing in the Forum.

You mention that Peny evidently used her little bit of stolen information to make herself seem important and brilliant. Well, isn't that pretty close to the Lazaris mythology as well? This was Peny's game, and she was good enough at it to make herself very wealthy.

It seems that the Forum management has gotten more and more out of control when it comes to deleting posts. What the hell are they afraid of? Ted and I have a rule against unauthorized advertising on this site too, but it stretches sanity to interpret the mention of a professional person, or informative website is interpreted as an abuse of that policy.

I once provided a link to a page with a picture and description of an unusual stone we were discussing, and my post was deleted too, but I got a very curt email from one of the Gangsters about it. Why the attitude?

They seem to be getting more and more obsessed with control as time goes on. It's a clear sign of deterioration as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks for sharing, I'll be back later.

I want to clarify - I don't think Peny stole info from Raymond Peat, she just didn't disclose who the "scientist" was that they got alot of their information from. I was told she was a client of his. I thought this was clear in my post but I wanted to make sure you and others know I do not think Peny stole this info and made up the stuff about a scientist. I do agree that by keeping the identity of her "scientist" a secret it made her seem important and like she had access to stuff that most of us would not be able to have access to. Since anyone can consult with Ray Peat, this secrecy disturbed me.

No, I got what you were saying.

I interpret Peny hiding the scientist's identity, and implying that he was some source of verification for the L materials, giving them all kinds of inside information to be "lifting". Let's face it, she used the guys generosity and openess as a way to make herself look bigger, brighter and better than. She worked his information to promote herself. She superimposed herself over this guys work and found a way to take personal credit for it.

That is plagiarism, theft, whatever you want to call it, but it's just another way of Peny promoting herself on the backs of others.

Anyway, I was clear about what you wrote, no worries.

Maybe we have different shades of interpretation about it. No prob with that on this end.

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I really feel Peny was wrong in not disclosing her sources of information, especially now that I am pretty sure that it was a public source and anyone could have had access to it. And she apparently expected this of other people when she was operating in other arenas.

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Peny was determined to control "access" in every area. Access to "Lazaris" was her pivotal point of control (and the basis for it). According to "Lazaris", no one else would have had access to him without her consent to share his lava & peas.

She and her minions controlled access for consultations. Also access to the forum, and accessiblity of the forum for personal expression. If she didn't like you, you're gone. Didn't like your post-- deleted. Even attendence of seminars could be cut off by her or her underlings. And access to Isis Risings vendors/consignors is tightly controlled as well.

As far as taking credit for information that comes from other sources -- "Lazaris" knows all about that.

"Lazaris" even jumps right in between an individual and their Self/Spirit/Soul so that a person is limiting their own access to his/her Self.

These folks are champion gatekeepers. If no gate exists, damn it they'll build one and supply the bouncer.

Jade

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Originally posted by Katie:
Hi Bluebird,

I wonder why on earth people who had access to an all wise entity 24/7 would need a muscle tester?

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Hmmmmmm.....now that is an interesting question. Why would you need a scientist either? Very interesting. Katie, I haven't read all the old threads so forgive me if I'm rehashing stuff but do most of the people here believe that channeling in itself is a fraud? I hear some say that they like Seth. I personally have consulted with a couple with fabulous success.

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Hmmmmmm.....now that is an interesting question. Why would you need a scientist either?[quote/]

I guess the answer is that you wouldn't.

[quote]Very interesting. Katie, I haven't read all the old threads so forgive me if I'm rehashing stuff but do most of the people here believe that channeling in itself is a fraud? I hear some say that they like Seth.

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LOL..I haven't taken a poll! I believe that we are all channels. I don't believe that any helpful loving entity chooses some individual to be the only source of their information though. I think that's something Mme Blavatsky made up to cover her butt after being exposed for her fraudulent channelling of her dead aunt who turned up alive and healthy. Peny claimed Mme B as one of her "guides". Given the general misery and ill-health of the notorious Mme. coupled with the controversies surrounding her, I'd have picked a better hero, but I love Tweetie Bird and Cheech and Chong movies, so what would I know?

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I personally have consulted with a couple with fabulous success

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Well, I've been consulted and provided fabulous success myself, but I have the inside scoop on that, it was pure happenstance. Trust me, I have no more access to the spirit world and it's wisdom than anyone else, but there are some who might want to tell you otherwise due to some of my past experiments.

Wisdom IS IMO It is not the exclusive possession of any special beings, alive, dead, or disembodied. It is our heritage and ours for the taking. That some choose to charge for it, or take credit for it is on them. Maybe there's a cosmic credit union in the sky to which they owe quite a bit of interest.

We have quite a few fans of the Seth material, but I've never read it, and probably won't so I have no opinion. I do respect the opinions of those who respect the Seth material though. Who knows maybe I'll read it some day and have an epiphany.

One of the things I like about this site is that for the most part people are just sharing and not proseletyzing. I really enjoy that, it gives me lots to think about.

So, I don't know the answer to your question about the majority opinion on channeling. If I had to guess, I'd say the majority believe, or do not disbelieve in some form of channeling.

I don't think we'd have to take a poll to discover the majority opinion about the wonderfulness of Con:Sin though.

Katie