quote:

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A few general comments. First, posting on forums is a lot different than communication via person-to-person interaction. When we read posts I think we each interpret them through our own filters, especially since we don't have verbal and physical clues as to what the sender means.

---

Yeah, really! I guess that's why emoticons have become so popular. One can only take so many [vbg]'s in one lifetime!

Have you ever experimented with reading a post as the words of someone really angry, then reading them again as someone very mellow and gentle? It's amazing sometimes to do that, I often get completely different meanings. Also, just the way we imagine people to look can alter our perceptions of their meaning and emotion. I always tell my friends who are falling in love on the internet (yes, I have a few) to picture the other person in a really negative way, like sitting in front of the computer in their raggedy underwear,etc, etc, rather than as the shining prince/princess they are coming off as. Boy, is that an effective technique to disenchant someone in a hurry. That's the main reason I felt it important to provide a description of Peny, for those who had never met her.

Maybe that's why we were given the imagery for Lazaris as a beautiful ball of light. Much nicer than some insidious shify eyed creepy guy, huh?

quote:

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I think I may have misinterpreted a couple of posts I have responded to, and if I have, I apologize.

---

quote:

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Also I would like to clarify that I am very aware of the pain and damage that C:S has inflicted. I just didnt' happen to experience it myself, besides perhaps being played for a sucker.

---

Well, that too is a very personal evaluation. For me, being played for a sucker by someone who's been inside my subconscious is quite enough.

I think some people come here believing that us cynics are a bunch of wounded, bleeding creatures, acting out of a sense of deep pain and misery. I'm not saying that you think that, but enough has been said by others to and about some of us to give me that impression.

I can't speak for everyone, but those of my acquaintance are some very joyful, thoughtful and insightful people. We're not all moping around licking our wounds, and lashing out and snarling at the world. For me, it was my desire for joy and happiness that drew me into the Lazaris fold. It was there that I found the wounded, snarling, and lashing out, that's why I left. Not fast enough, unfortunately.

quote:

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Finally, I would like to thank Katie and Ted again for this site and to salute the COURAGE of all of us who are determined to follow our spiritual paths, regardless of the pitfalls along the way.

---

You are most welcome for the site, it is very much our pleasure (and occasional frustration). It's really great to meet all you folks.

Katie

I am still new to Lazaris, and I practically left before I got in the door, because of the abusive atmosphere in Con:Sin.
So how much, and what can I say about it all?

I didn't know that you have experienced such profound things in your connection with Lazaris. It's good to know, otherwise I might have judged you as an intelectual person, and not as the experienced and sensitive person that you are revealing to me now.

It makes me more willing to listen to your point of view.
I say I am confused, but in a sense, I have nothing to be confused about. I wasn't really involved with Con:Sin, I am not now, and I never will be. So all it is for me, is actually a disappointment, and an outrage that these people can be so evil and mean to others.

I would really like for Jach to step forward and explain the truth, because he is the one who has all the answers. But I guess that is never going to happen.

Helena

I thought I just sent my reply but it seems to have disappeared into the ether so I will try again.

quote:

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Maybe that's why we were given the imagery for Lazaris as a beautiful ball of light.

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The graphic with this was great! LOL

One post I am afraid I may have misinterpreted was Lilly's about fearing a visitation from the evil Lazaris, which I thought was hilarious. If you were serious, Lilly, I am very sorry! The other post was a response to Marilyn, but I just went back and reread it and I think it's okay.

I sense that you and Ted and many others here are highly intelligent, very good communicators, sincere, insightful, clear of purpose, and yes, joyous, and certainly with wonderful senses of humor. (Ok, and sometimes a little peeved too).

To me these qualities add weight to your opinions. One thing that attracted me to Lazaris was his use of humor. Unfortunately, it now seems he sometimes used that humor at the expense of certain "followers."

I learn more from this Forum every time I come back to visit. I agree with Lilly that there are many lessons to be learned here besides deciding the issue of whether or not Lazaris is "real."

Thanks to all for sharing.

I have enjoyed your posts. Thanks for your words. I have to say, though, that I am actually feeling pretty swayed right now toward the conclusion that Lazaris is just an act... I have tried to keep an open mind and I still am but it seems more and more likely to me that that is the case. But I definitely agree with you that either way, the positive does outweigh the negative. At least for me.

Nancy

No, don't worry, I meant it to be funny...
I mean, I did really freak myself out about getting a visit from an evil Lazaris, but I knew I was being paranoid and had to laugh! Glad you did too.

Thanks to Jeremiah for the reminder of the white light acting as the raid for evil visitors!

quote:

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I didn't know that you have experienced such profound things in your connection with Lazaris. It's good to know, otherwise I might have judged you as an intelectual person, and not as the experienced and sensitive person that you are revealing to me now.

---

It's a fair bet that all of us are much more complex than would appear from our posts here.

As to my spirituality, I have always considered it pretty much a private matter, very much like my love for my husband, Ted.

For me, it's fine to speak in generalities, but when it gets down to the most sacred parts of me, I prefer to keep it in it's protected and safe place.

I've always equated those who wear their hearts and souls on their sleeves to be like
teenagers who have "fallen in love" for the first time. They are obsessed and fascinated with these new and exciting feelings, but completely ill-equipped to view them from a more mature perspective. And, of course, adolescents just know that they are the first and only to feel such incredible feelings. Their love is the most special, best, unquestionably perfect and enduring love on the planet...until next week.

When I hear that kind of passion, for another person, or for a religious or spiritual belief I recognize it for what it is.

I have had an active and conscious spirituality since I was a very very young child. My communications with the Divine are some of my first and clearest memories.
That much I will say, in this context; when Peny told me in the Forum that I had just thrown my spirituality out the window, because I supported Ted in questioning the abusive and manipulative way in which she was handling her relationship with "Steve" her cyber-lover gone mad, I knew in that instant who she was, and what she was about.

No one has the right to say those words to another person, and the ridiculousness and misery behind them is stunning.

Peny revealed herself, with those words, to be the pathetic, frightened, desperate person that she was.

After that, she made the comment that "Jach and I ALWAYS win."

Well, hey Peny, congratulations! Maybe they will carve that into your headstone. It is a great epitaph for you. So, what was the prize? I asked you that in life, maybe Lazaris can channel the answer back to those of us still breathing.

Spirituality is to me the most sacred and precious part of us all. If you don't hear me going on about it very much, that's because I value it too much to subject it to public scrutiny on an internet message board.
My soul is not up for discussion or debate.

I wish Jach would speak up too, but like you, I doubt that he ever will, not of his own volition.

I believe him to be a very low, fearful, cowardly, miserable piece of work, and have no sadness at the thought of the discomfort that causes him.

All the money and glory in the world cannot fill an empty and disenfranchised soul.

How can anyone who has chosen to play God and exert authority over others ever find peace in the thought of actually meeting the Divine soul to soul, here, now, or ever?

Maybe that is what hell really is, the inability to ever even consider facing up to yourself, the misery you have caused, and the lies you have told.

So, rot in hell Jach. I'm sure you are in the company of your choosing.

Sorry Helena, I got off on my private rant here. I hear the confusion and sadness in your posts along with your compassionate desire for resolution. It is because of some very foul, conscious, and deliberate actions that you your hopes have little chance of being realized.

But, we don't need Jach or anyone to do anything. Our strength, wisdom, healing, and love is completely within us, available to us in the tiniest whisper of acceptance.

Katie

quote:

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Originally posted by Nancy:
Hi fingerprince,

I have enjoyed your posts. Thanks for your words. I have to say, though, that I am actually feeling pretty swayed right now toward the conclusion that Lazaris is just an act... I have tried to keep an open mind and I still am but it seems more and more likely to me that that is the case. But I definitely agree with you that either way, the positive does outweigh the negative. At least for me.

Nancy

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Nancy,

Thanks for your response. I have enjoyed your posts. Your skepticism is understandable.

Actually, it was Helena that I was specifically referring to. I seem to get confused by a rush of names---I read the entire thread and then go back to what I think was what I wanted to respond to and then make a mistake. I probably should respond as I read but, then I don't know what happened later that may or may not influence the thread...

You and Helena "sound" somewhat similar...both calm, compassionate...she more firm in the support of Lazaris as "real" than you, though, from what I read. I really meant to reply to her, though it still has strong dittos for you.

quote:

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Originally posted by Helena:
I was listening to a Lazaris tape yesterday, and when I compare that with what I've heard coming from Jach, it makes it absolutely clear to me that Lazaris is not a scam.

Jach could never have pulled it off. He is not that intelligent, doesn't have that beautiful sense of humor, and isn't so compassionate at all. Just remember how he's judging people all the time for not being adults. Hearing him speak in the Forum is such a different experience than listening to Lazaris. (And there he is trying to sound at his best, remember?)

I think that Jach and Peny etc. got a gift that they couldn't handle. When I listen to the material, it is so difficult to imagine that Jach could have made it up.
To study Silva mind control and Est, does not make a person capable of turning into an extremely intelligent and loving source of information.

I am sure that it was never Lazaris' intention that his material should be used to abuse and control other people.

...

The material is great. It is the best I have ever encountered. Jach could never in a million years have done that.

...

No, Lazaris is real, and I feel sad that something so great was completely ruined for many of you.
I understand that you can't listen to it anymore and be open, not after being treated like that.
Helena

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Hi, Helena.

I meant to reply to you earlier today and replied to Nancy, instead. I like what she has to offer so I don't mean to take that part back but, I just wanted you to know that I appreciate your thoughts. The ones above aren't terribly unlike my own.

Thanks for your reply, it's quite provocative.

Hi, Katie.

I enjoyed reading your post to Helena.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jeremiah:
Hi Fingerprince,

Why do you keep refrencing these superhuman and supernatural events that you witnessed if you don't want to discuss them?

an aside:

[b] for those who haven't read all the threads this is the umpteenth time Fingerprince has alluded to these supernatural experiences that he refuses to elaborate on

Hi, Jeremiah.

I did not intend cruel and unusual behavior, sorry since that's how it's coming across to you.

I'm really surprised, I guess, that so many people have experienced such stellar events and yet continue to want to attribute that to Jach. That dumbfounds me but, maybe I lead a sheltered life.

Or, maybe others never experienced or witnessed anything really special other than words that seemed to make great sense (for those among us that say this.)

Part of the problem with people saying something is that it may be diminished by the telling. Lazaris has said (though I have my own opinion which is in accord) similar things ("keep the experience private so as not to lose it..." or words similar.)
I have shared my stellar event with perhaps 1-2 dozen people, in person, over the past 6-7 years. Some were blown away and wanted it for themselves. Others had never heard of such a thing (neither had I in my previous 13-14 years with Lazaris.) A few others shrugged their shoulders and one or two discounted it completely, telling me that that's real common elsewhere (but couldn't tell me where.) I realized somewhere in there that I needed to be real careful in discussing it. I know what happened. In my last consultation with Lazaris I spent half of my 30 minutes discussing it with him (it had happened more than a year before but that was my first chance to discuss it with him.) So I know what Lazaris says about it and he validates it for me, clarifies some points and lets me know that it *was,* indeed special and not likely to be repeated (this is my take on how/what he said to me.)
So that's two of us. As my talking around it is tedious to you, my talking ABOUT it to someone who will rip it down is real tedious to me. I simply don't wish to do that. The event happened, however, and it is, in the world as I have experienced it, rare if not unique. There are many things in the world that raise eyebrows. We often hear about them but mostly don't experience too many, it seems to me. This one I want to savor and enjoy and keep in the category of untarnished. So while I will share it on occasion, this place will not be it.

Now, as to other supernatural or superhuman events, let's ask.

Have any of the people in here ever heard about the levitations attributed to Lazaris? What about the physical manifesting he was also reported to have produced at least once. I didn't witness either but heard it more than once from some of the early Lazaris participants (who had been in Seth-sized groups years earlier.)

Incidentally, as to Lazaris being real or not, it is clear, to me, based on substantial information I have, that even those closest to Jach never flinched in believing that there was a separation between Jach and Lazaris. The people I am aware of, names I have not seen mentioned in here, were with Jach on a daily basis and more-or-less "fought" to get readings from Lazaris.

Anyway, Jeremiah, back to the premise at hand. Perhaps someone else covered it somewhere in the past few months...I haven't seen reference to it, if so. Surely you must have witnessed Lazaris saying someone's name at "crystal time," without that person saying anything previously. Do you think maybe Lazaris snuck a peek first to see who it was? Do you think Jach/Lazaris memorized every name and face attending a workshop and snuck a peek and suddenly recognized the person, who suddenly appears? He did that so often with me that I only mentioned my name half the time and yet I'd get "Ah, our dear [me]" I know this also happened to countless others. Is this a magic or parlor trick I'm unfamiliar with? IF *I* could do that, I'd be making a fortune right now! This is just one simple little sample.

I have others, Jeremiah. I will wait and see what the response to this is before adding anything else.
____________________________________________
[quote]
Btw, I have not drawn any conclusions as to who or what Lazaris is and you will note if you read through the site that I have talked about the value of the material over and over.

So my agenda is not to "debunk" Lazaris but to find out the truth.
[/B]

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_____________________________________________

I, and I'm sure many others, appreciate that.

Thanks

quote:

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I did not intend cruel and unusual behavior, sorry since that's how it's coming across to you.

---

I wonder if at any time during your twenty odd years of studying with Lazaris you ever heard him deconstruct a sentence like the one above.

You can find a discussion on the topic of Lazaris knowing people's names at:

http://www.cosmicfool.com/discussion/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000097.html

Thank you for being clear on your desire to respond to the issues that have been raised to you, and for taking so much time to figure out how this message board works. I realize that it must be a big challenge. With a little more diligence I'm sure you'll catch up.

How's that house coming?

Katie

I think *the* major reason (aside from the total human evil behind it) that the C:S Hitler Forum fell into a bottomless fascist toilet is that it became a fault finding / frying pan.

Yeah. I think fingerprince's contual bringing up of a mystical event with Big L and no details is a bit boring / possibly points to some intelectual defensiveness / denial about the special evil of Lazaris, on his part.

But hey. We're all in one stage or another of withdrawal from one HUGE discusting new age suicide cult.

If it ain't a personal attack -- my advise? Point up the error -- for sure. But be totally "unattached" to someone changing -- let it roll off your back.

And -- if it is an (above room temperature IQ) personal attack? Hey -- go for it! Have a ball -- extract massive justice raaaacht out here in public.

Steve
sb6@altavista.com

quote:

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Hi, Jeremiah.

I did not intend cruel and unusual behavior, sorry since that's how it's coming across to you.

---

That isn't how it came across to me at all. I don't know where you got the idea that I said your behavior was cruel and unusual.

What I said was that from my perspective it was boring and manipulative to continually offer up the promise of exciting revelations and then refuse to expound on them.

My question to you was and still is why do you bring them up at all if you don't want to discuss them?

All you explained was why you don't want to discuss them which I understand and totally support you in.

What you didn't address is why you keep mentioning them over and over and over if you have no intention of really talking about them.

That would be the boring manipulative part.

Certainly you can see how it can serve little purpose to raise the issue and refuse to discuss the question.

Having said that, thanks for writing about the levitations etc.

I had never heard of Lazaris levitating or performing any of the type of physical manifestations you discussed, so that was interesting and certainly possible.

I was a bit dissapointed though, I had kind of hoped that the fantastic events you were referring to had more to do with situations in which someone was helped profoundly helped in a practical way by an insight or suggestion of Lazaris.

I sort of imagined a revelation of some deep phychological assistance or insight that empowered a person on their path that had dramatic consequences.

In other words, I thought you were writing about Lazaris legitimately and concretely helping someone grow in their power.

Instead you write about him dazzling someone.

Dazzling is fine and I totally believe and acknowledge the reality of those individuals who have learned to expand the accepted boundaries of physical limitation to perform such acts as levitation, manifestation of objects from "nowhere" etc.

They are unusual but certainly they exist no arguments here.

So if you want to talk abou that fine with me , I and I bet other, are interested enough in hearing about it.

What really interests me though are the more practical, more magickal incidents of people through their interactions with Lazaris coming into a deeper place of peace and mastery.

We have so many examples here of people who became less peaceful and masterful through their interactions with Lazaris it might be nice to balance it out with some stories from the other end of the spectrum.

So thanks for the information, but levitating, raising from the dead, manifestation of objects from thin air.. its all great and fascinating but I was looking for something a bit more demonstrable in the practical sense.

Anything along those lines?

Thanks,

Jeremiah

What [b]really interests me though are the more practical, more magickal incidents of people through their interactions with Lazaris coming into a deeper place of peace and mastery.

We have so many examples here of people who became less peaceful and masterful through their interactions with Lazaris it might be nice to balance it out with some stories from the other end of the spectrum.
____________________________________________
I think that's grand, Jeremiah, but first things first, okay?

Thanks

You seem to have confused me with someone else.

I have written to you and others repeatedly that I have not formed an opinion as to who or what Lazaris is.

All the frustration you express around "debunking" and all the agendas to refute etc. are simply for somebody else. I do not have those agendas. I am fascinated to know the truth.

So one last time: I am not challenging you or your experiences I simply do not see what profit can come from constantly bringing them up and refusing to discuss them, seems odd.. to what end?

Btw, there are many eye witness accounts and some videotapes of folks like Sai Baba and others performing manifestations and levitations.

The legitmacy of these accounts is as always in the eye of the beholder/perciever.

So anyway, I think all the emotion in your post is for someone else because I am not about debunking Lazaris or anything at all along those lines.

I worked with Lazaris long enough to have learned that there are no "experts" in metaphysics only those that live it and those that don't.

One last thing. Do you think you could find a way to present your posts in a more readable manner? It is difficult to follow what your thoughts are and who you are speaking to.

I have studied Sai Baba and have a videotape showing him manifesting ashes and trinkets. I was pretty convinced of his authenticity. (But then, so was I of Lazaris's. Hmm.)

I have never heard of Lazaris manifesting phyical objects or levitating. However, I do seem to remember at a seminar that he mentioned that Peny would do things like that in his presence. I recall that this made me even more impressed with Peny's advanced state of spiritual development. Does anyone else remember?

Also, I definitely recall Jach saying that because he was in trance so much, he didn't need much sleep and would stay up most of the night.

quote:

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Part of the problem with people saying something is that it may be diminished by the telling. Lazaris has said (though I have my own opinion which is in accord) similar things ("keep the experience private so as not to lose it..." or words similar.)

---

I wish I had a quarter for every time I heard Lazaris say "there's magic in the telling". So, I'd have to dispute that point.

It's up to you, of course, whether you choose to tell or not, but I support Jeremiah in asking you to stop alluding to events or perceptions that you are not willing to discuss. It is very frustrating, and I'll take it one step further than Jeremiah has, by saying that it's manipulative. You know as well as anyone that it's dirty pool to say "I know something important, but I'm not going to say what it is." To what end would you say that?

It's fine that you stated once that you have had experiences which are personal, but convincing to you, and they are too private to share. Once is enough. Twice will suffice. To continuously repeat it is non-productive, provocative, insulting, and manipulative. It's as though you want us to beg, or you want to accuse us of trying to force you to tell you. What is your point in continuously repeating yourself on this?

It's gotten to the point where you have been told that it is annoying, but you still continue. Is that even polite, let alone productive?

quote:

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Have any of the people in here ever heard about the levitations attributed to Lazaris? What about the physical manifesting he was also reported to have produced at least once. I didn't witness either but heard it more than once from some of the early Lazaris participants (who had been in Seth-sized groups years earlier.)

---

No, I have not heard any of those reports. We did hear of a blue ball of light moving down the center aisle at one early seminar, though. Maybe that is what you are referring to? I would be interested to hear any stories of levitations etc. also, but like Jeremiah, what I am most interested in knowing is how the Lazaris materials have lived up to their promise to change lives and create abundance and magic beyond our wildest imaginations.

quote:

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What I find fascinating in your response is exactly what I alluded to earlier, i.e., how dismissive things get to be. Katie would refer me to previous discussions on name memorization, etc. I would respond "hogwash!" to that. You seem to demand so much proof that it becomes absurd. As I said earlier, there will never be enough.

---

Who among us critics and skeptics is demanding proof of anything here? The only request for proof I can recall here was from Helena to Ted, she telling him that she needed more proof from him to convince her of his beliefs.

The thread was offered as a point of reference that many have already shared their thoughts on this topic of Lazaris knowing people's names. It was not intended as proof of anything, it was an attempt to avoid having the same conversation twice. If you, or anyone has anything to add to that discussion, the thread is provided as a place to do that. That is all! Who is being dismissive here?

You really seem to be missing the point that most of us are here to discuss and share our thoughts. The only zealousness to change minds or convert people's thinking on this board has come from Lazaris supporters.

It seems that you are most angered, upset and threatened by an open discussion of opinions that don't jibe with yours. From the beginning you have been trying to find ways to impose controls on how and what we discuss here. Why is that? If the concept of freedom of speech and thought or the responsibilities that come along with that are difficult for you, maybe this isn't a comfortable place for you to be. We placed a warning that this conversation may be difficult or upsetting to those who are not questioning Lazaris for that very reason.

That is your decision of course, but be aware that no rules will be imposed to make things more comfortable for anyone. We are all responsible for our own comfort level.

You are more than welcome to express your opinions here. You can, however, expect that your premises might be challenged, different perspectives might be offered, or questions might be asked for clarification.
Anyone who expresses their opinion in a public discussion can expect that.

Maybe you can just accept that not everyone here agrees with everything you say, and move on, rather than make comments like your integrity is being challenged.

You are the keeper of your own integrity, I trust that you are able to evaluate your own motives and actions. To disagree with someone is not to question their integrity. Surely you know that.

I am very interested in hearing all opinions, but I am not interested in being falsely accused, manipulated, misrepresented,
or abused. Those are my boundaries. You can respect them or not. I assure you that I do and will continue to.

My question to you is do you think you can participate here without feeling the need to change people's minds, or feel assaulted when you are disagreed with?

We aren't playing teams here, or running popularity contests. The very serious and profound issues we are discussing here will not be resolved by taking sides, or gaining favor through flattery. I believe that each of us is here because we have a sincere desire to resolve these issues for ourselves, and that we welcome the input of others as a way of providing ourselves with information and perspectives to do so.

We are told time and again that we must learn to separate the good from the bad in the Lazaris materials. Given that no one here is claiming to be a spiritual authority, I would think that rule would apply even more so to this discussion.

For you and others who are confused about how to use the code for quotes, icons, etc.
the very simple instructions are provided next to the window that opens when you are writing a post. The link says "UBB Code is ON". If you click there, all of your questions will be answered. There is no technique that requires any technical skill.

Peace,

Katie

Here is a link to a number of articles which contain reports and testimonies about Sai Baba.

http://saibabaguru.com/articles.htm

He us under investigation for allegations of child sexual abuse, and the articles contain much information and testimony about the "miracles" that he creates.

I didn't go through and read any of these articles, but I assume they contain the same information about Sai Baba which I have read on cult-awareness sites.

Be forewarned, this is a very disturbing and sickening read.

If you have the stomach to read through, you will find testimonies of followers who were sexually abused by the Guru, and their explanations of the process of denial and avoidance they went through, even in the face of their own personal experiences.

Some of the processes of separation reported sound identical to those we have read here.

This is another story of fraud, abuse, and manipulation from a Spiritual Authority.

I even found articles on the Krishna org site demanding full disclosure, integrity, and honesty from the Sai Baba org, even though the Krisha's themselves have come under attack as a cult.

Katie

I remember one levitation story. L was discussing trying to adjust to the energy level in this realm. P and j were visiting a friend in the hospital and the patient asked for a healing from L. J went into trance, L came in, and put J's hand on the preson and lifted him right off the bed.

Maybe he reserves this method for hospital visits.

quote:

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Wonder if they ever tried that with P.?

---

Jade

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wayne:
Re: Levitation

I remember one levitation story. L was discussing trying to adjust to the energy level in this realm. P and j were visiting a friend in the hospital and the patient asked for a healing from L. J went into trance, L came in, and put J's hand on the preson and lifted him right off the bed.

---

Yes, Wayne, that is the primary levitation story I heard. The rest of the story, though, is that the woman was in critical condition and, though freaked out by the experience, left the hospital the next day. Lazaris said he had to learn to step down his energy and that was part of his "learning curve."

There were rumors or possibly only speculation about a couple of other levitations. I never saw any so I cannot validate them.

As in all interactions, my understanding is that Lazaris would not "do it for us," and rather only facilitated. This came up not only in regards to Peny but also in regards to Anna (her best friend until her death about six years ago,) Gerald, Jach's right hand man who died a few years ago, Judy (who was closely related to the workers) who died back there a few years ago, too, and countless "friends of Lazaris" who have also moved on, in death. Lazaris has said he will not intervene, though I know that there are certain circumstances in which he will assist. We have our own Higher Self, as I understand it, who is more appropriate for that type of interaction.

Again, Lazaris claimed not to want to be our master. When I think about this, I try to imagine myself in his position. How do you help without actually intervening? How do you offer information without giving the appearance of a guru or master? How do you have a friend who seems so much wiser and loving? Do we choose friends who are less wise and loving as ourselves?

It looks like a tough row to hoe, to me. Our desire to find love makes us really vulnerable, I think. I suppose that each of us has to learn how to find our balances, balancing when/where it's appropriate. I know I have lots to learn, yet. My daily interactions with people are a balance of this...some successes and many "lessons" via failure, etc. I cannot really imagine a more global perspective, as is the one which I believe Lazaris holds.

quote:

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Originally posted by Nancy:

I do seem to remember at a seminar that he mentioned that Peny would do things like that in his presence. I recall that this made me even more impressed with Peny's advanced state of spiritual development. Does anyone else remember?

Also, I definitely recall Jach saying that because he was in trance so much, he didn't need much sleep and would stay up most of the night.

Nancy

---

Hi, Nancy.

Lazaris would often say things about Peny. I mostly ignored it...possibly jealousy or something similar on my part, I admit. Part of it because it really didn't seem as though we needed to hear any more about how special she was. I don't really remember the reference you mention though I do remember mentions or suggestions of her advanced skills. I always wondered why she didn't help herself physically but then, sitting around being treated as a queen eating chocolate all day must make it tough to be any other way. She had, after all, at least in physical terms, everything she wanted, except her form.

As to Jach and sleep, there were many occasions when Jach would show up a few minutes late to a workshop, slightly disheveled, because he overslept. And it wasn't because he *needed* sleep but rather because he liked to sleep, as it was told. They kept strange, or perhaps "liberated" hours. They didn't, after all, keep normal business hours for any particular reason (staff workers probably not, though.)

quote:

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Originally posted by Jeremiah:
Hey Fingerprince,

You seem to have confused me with someone else.

I have written to you and others repeatedly that I have not formed an opinion as to who or what Lazaris is.

...

I am fascinated to know the truth.

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... seems odd..

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Yeah, possibly. I'm as abnormal as anyone.

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I worked with Lazaris long enough to have learned that there are no "experts" in metaphysics only those that live it and those that don't.

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You know, Jeremiah, there's probably buckets of truth in there. Most of us don't really know how to tell, anyway. Which in a sort of way brings us back to Lazaris. What is metaphysical, what is spiritual, what is loving? We're all in here drawing lines, some parallel, some crossing, some jagged...banging our brains inside our skulls trying to figure it out.

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One last thing. Do you think you could find a way to present your posts in a more readable manner? It is difficult to follow what your thoughts are and who you are speaking to.

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It is embarassing to do that. I see it, too. I have attempted to write using proper syntax but just when I thought I had it, I found out I didn't. This message to you is a conscious attempt in mastering the quote-thing. I read the ubb-stuff and will see if it works. I do apologize for that.

You wrote:

quote:

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So here sits Jach, channeling 30-60 hours per week, presumably "sleeping," likes to sleep so probably sleeps at least 8 hours per day, sits around wheeling and dealing and yet, somehow, has
the time, the energy, the intelligence to memorize lists and dosiers that are somehow accumulated that have all kinds of juicy facts, photos, secrets from each and every person who has come to a workshop, whether it's their first time or not. Neat trick, I'd say.

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As Nancy pointed out, Jach claims to not need much sleep because Lazaris invigorates him. The story of levitation, as Wayne noted, came from "Lazaris" himself. As did the story of the handicapped child who calmed down upon hearing a Lazaris tape. Great evidence! Let me tell you about all the times I levitated...

No one claimed that Jach has a dosier on "each and every person who has come to a workshop". If he did, no one would ever have to give "Lazaris" their name at the crystal ceremony. "Lazaris" never recognized me, even after 10 years and countless blessings.

I saw C:S people whisper in Jach's ear during these ceremonies on several occasions. That is not hearsay. Oh yes, the stories about manifesting physical objects - told by Lazaris, as well? Circular logic.

If I saw Lazaris levitate someone, or someone without an agenda told me about it, I'd be impressed. For Lazaris to toot his own or Peny's horn means nothing. Except maybe that Lazaris doesn't have enough confidence in the power of the teachings to really change people's lives, so he makes up grandiose stories to impress us. Sound and fury signifying nothing.

You're still making the claim that we "debunkers" can not change our minds. I responded to that claim earlier. You didn't respond to my response - you ignored it and continued to make the charge. That's dismissive.

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Yes, Wayne, that is the primary levitation story I heard. The rest of the story, though, is that the woman was in critical condition and, though freaked out by the experience, left the hospital the next day. Lazaris said he had to learn to step down his energy and that was part of his "learning curve."

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From your perspective how does an entity who does not experience "time" experience a "learning curve"?

Curious, because in order for there to be a learning curve there has to be a past a present and a future in which progression occurs.

I know that Lazaris says they make mistakes sometimes. I always liked that about Lazaris and it helped me to trust him and his message.

Mistakes don't necessarily rely on time to occur [although you could argue that they do] but a learning curve? The whole concept of a learning curve is time-bound.

But anyway, my question is how can Lazaris be subject to "time" when learning something when "time" isn't a part of his reality ?
Lazaris says often that he barely notices time when he is communciating through the unit/channel.

Lazaris often looks at Pursel's watch to asses the time needed for crystal buying and bathroom breaks and explains that "we may have time but they don't".

Usually that is said with a knowing wink in his voice leading us to assume that time is a limitation that he can toss aside or assume at will.

That leads me to assume that Lazaris has to do a little accomodating for us to even notice that time exists, so much so that he has to check out Jach's watch to know that time has passed.

So why I wonder, having such a remote experience with time as to not even know when to announce bathroom and crystal buying breaks, is he subject to time when learning something?

I wondered if you had any explanation for that. I was never able to drum up a convincing answer to that question when I was working with Lazaris maybe you or others have insight into that.

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There were rumors or possibly only speculation about a couple of other levitations. I never saw any so I cannot validate them.

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For me, the ability to levitate is no more an indication of spiritual depth or understanding that someone with say, an extrodinary athletic ability.

It demonstrates something very specific and yes very impressive. It demonstrates that the person has trancended common thresholds to acheive something "super physical"

For someone to conclude that because someone has the ability to levitate or manifest oranges from ashes that the individual is enlightened in other respects is a trap.

An interesting thing to note here is that Lazaris talked about this in a round about way once.

Lazaris was discussing Madame Blavatsky who was famous for materializing and dematerializing herself as well as for being two places at once.

Lazaris explained that Blavatsky wasn't "really" dematerializing or appearing in two places at once but was simply hypnotizing people into believing
that she did.

Her powers of hypnosis were so well honed according to Lazaris that she could hypnotize people while in normal waking conciousness to believe she had trancended gravity and time and space.

Intersting theory from Lazaris, food for thought.

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As in all interactions, my understanding is that Lazaris would not "do it for us," and rather only facilitated.

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Yeah, of course. Isn't it strange that it people would want Lazaris to "do it for them" even after he so eloquently explained why that was disempowering and indeed against his principles?

Wonder whats going on there.

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This came up not only in regards to Peny but also in regards to Anna (her best friend until her death about six years ago,) Gerald, Jach's right hand man who died a few years ago, Judy (who was closely related to the workers) who died back there a few years ago, too, and countless "friends of Lazaris" who have also moved on, in death.

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Geralds death and the reactions to it have been discussed in these pages.

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Lazaris has said he will not intervene,

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No, that isn't correct. Lazaris has said he is happy to intervene/help. What he has said is he will not create our reality for us.

Lazaris is more than willing [to hear him tll it] to intervene to help in anyway at all that we are willing to allow him to.

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though I know that there are certain circumstances in which he will assist. We have our own Higher Self, as I understand it, who is more appropriate for that type of interaction.

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Well, I would respcectfully interject here that it is more appropriate for us, the conscious self, to examine our own beliefs and feelings and change them where appropriate.

That is what is appropriate in my view, not continually infantalizing ourselves in relation to other "higher" parts of ourselves and to Lazaris.

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Again, Lazaris claimed not to want to be our master. When I think about this, I try to imagine myself in his position. How do you help without actually intervening? How do you offer information without giving the appearance of a guru or master?

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Well, lets see. If you are a teacher [and Lazaris never implied he wasn't a teacher] you could teach people the mechanics of reality creation and encourage them to change their beliefs.

That is pretty empowering and nobody has to intervene or anything.

You could impart all this information with respect and with succinctness and that would be it.

That would be a very simple way to impart whatever you had to teach without creating a guru persona.

Sitting in hotel ballrooms in big royal looking chairs surrounded by flowers doesn't help to diminish that impression of going for gurudom.

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How do you have a friend who seems so much wiser and loving? Do we choose friends who are less wise and loving as ourselves?

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One great way to have a friend wiser and more loving than you is to absorb their example.

Actions, not protestations.

Action in thought and deed are the most powerful teachers and communicators.

Is Lazaris example of love and wisdom inspiring to you? If so that inspiration is a gift.

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It looks like a tough row to hoe, to me. Our desire to find love makes us really vulnerable, I think.

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No, our desire to extract something we think is love from inappropriate sources makes us vulnerable.

In my opinion the same impulse that leads people to make bad decisions in singles bars that they later regret is the same impulse that leads one to sign up for gurus and non-gurus alike.

The hunger the inner child has for recognition for acknowledgment that is undernourished finds what appears to be that nourishment and recognition in the guru/spiritual leader.

For those that have a perhaps more heightened critical thinking sense they require gurus who claim not to be gurus even though they act like them.

Cheers,

Jeremiah

Thanks,

It's good to see your posts, so organized and answering others questions fully. This honors the other posters who have asked specific questions.

Ted correctly stated that he has been dismissed by Finger in his last post.

Your patience,(Ted's,Katie's and Jade'sas well), to continue to be so respectful in the face of ongoing disrespect compels me to post this.

This thread, and others resembling it have become so tedious due to dangling issues, that I can't even make it through the whole mess..

You know, I have to agree about the "dangling issues". Well put.

I realize that posting on a message board can be uncomfortable for some, but "netiquette" is really no different than "etiquette".

If you walk into a room full of new people, and join in a conversation it's only common courtesy to finish it up before just walking away.

Especially if you have been standing on the coffee table commanding the attention of the room.

It's easy really, and the responsible respectful thing to do, to regard a message board in the same way you would a face to face gathering. The same rules apply.

Can you imagine a party where you had people running in and out the whole time making grand statements and then just disappearing into thin air?

I find that we generally live in a very rude society, so none of this surprises me much, but I still always hold to what my dear grandmother told me about manners, that they are a good thing because their purpose is to provide a universally agreed upon way to act and react in a social setting. The ultimate purpose of that of course is to make people feel as comfortable as possible, rich, poor, famous or obscure, manners provides a common ground.

Our society has become so shortsighted and self-centered that very few even know there is such a thing as manners anymore, let along practices them.

I keep thinking it would be a great thing to bring back Finishing Schools, and start holding little socials for kids where they learn the whys and hows of social intercourse.

Life would be so much more genteel.

I highly recommend all of the Miss Manners books, she is a perfect lady who knows exactly how to stand up for herself. No martyrhood there.

Miss Manners has written extensively on the correlation between the erosion of civility and the rise in crime. There was a time that decency was so common that it was near impossible for very many to ever even consider entering the house of a stranger univited. When manners were taught in even the most humble of homes, fewer criminals were bred.

Of course, we have to remember that this group is for the most part freshly out of or still in the "school of Lazaris" and we all know quite well that neither Jach or Peny ever heard of Emily Post, let alone Miss Manners. When it comes to civility, those two have shown themselves many many times over to be nothing more than ill-bred country bumpkins.

Chintz china teacups do not a lady make.

Do I sound like a snob for saying all this?

Well, I can rough and tumble with the best of them, but at least I do know the rules of civilized society, and why they exist.

Thanks once again Grandmom. I miss your wisdom and love.

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Originally posted by Audrey:

Ted correctly stated that he has been dismissed by Finger in his last post.

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This thread, and others resembling it have become so tedious due to dangling issues, that I can't even make it through the whole mess..

Best,
Audrey

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Virtually every thread within this website is like that. You're simply biased against me because I dare to stand against the prevailing wind and so you see it that way.
I could have written as you did. I started a thread or two that similarly unraveled in a way in which I would have also found tangential. That's the way this game is played, apparently.

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Originally posted by TedV:
Hi Fingerprince,

You wrote: As Nancy pointed out, Jach claims to not need much sleep because Lazaris invigorates him. The story of levitation, as Wayne noted, came from "Lazaris" himself. As did the story of the handicapped child who calmed down upon hearing a Lazaris tape. Great evidence! Let me tell you about all the times I levitated...

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You're still making the claim that we "debunkers" can not change our minds. I responded to that claim earlier. You didn't respond to my response - you ignored it and continued to make the charge. That's dismissive.

Cheers, Ted

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EVERYONE is capable of changing their minds. In general terms, however, there is a tendency for people who line up with a cause to stand by that view no matter what the opposition might say. This is as true for "debunkers" as it is for those who hold onto a religion or following, etc. Since this is a website ordained to "expose" Lazaris and Concept:Synergy, then the term "debunker" is appropriate. It would appear to me that there is an overwhelming volume of data here that has shown not one iota of changing to retract from that tenacity. While the emotions seem more restrained (to me)the minds are just as firm as they originally emanated.

Cheers to you, too.

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Katie and a few others seem to have an inordinate amount of time to write. Great for them.

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Actually, it isn't a matter of time. Some people just write quickly and assimilate their thoughts quickly while writing.

It might take you a great deal of time to commit your thoughts to a post, but that isn't so for all of us.

So what? what difference does it make? None to me, but you obviously feel that you are dealing with people who have too much time on their hands and I thought I might offer the alternate view that perhaps there are people that just use time differently.

If you don't want to post, or don't want to spend the time, don't.

Why bitch about it when you make strong assertions and people respond?

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I don't. I will not have time for even what interests me; I certainly won't allow myself to be held hostage to every nuance or piece of verbage directed my way

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You flatter yourself needlessly. This website isn't about you, its about everyone who writes and reads here.

I write for my own benefit and hopefully others might find it interesting but I don't require them too.

I write here because I think what is being discussed here is important.

Your claim to hostage status is unconvincing.

I for one, don't care whether you respond to what I write to you in the least, even when I am responding directly to you.

This is a public board that many people read so if something you write inspires some thought in me and I write to you, know that I have no expectation that you respond.

Btw, this post took 2 minutes and 36 seconds of illusionary earth time to compose and post.

Jeremiah

You wrote:

quote:

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The gist of the conversation in some threads indicated a huge conspiracy by Peny and C:S to gather information by any means possible to use against us. Therein is implied a database or a dosier or some other
source to be used at the most inauspicious of moments.

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Conversations I have had with people who were close to the organization indicate that they did/do indeed collect data about people. Whether they store it on a literal database is another question.

You wrote:

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Oh, wow, Ted! You're really reaching now! Two people sat on either side simply to guide those coming forward. These two virtually never spoke to Lazaris.

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"Virtually never" implies once or twice in a lifetime. I saw it happen at most of the seminars I attended. The people you mentioned are or were all part of the organization. They were not local people with a passing interest.

You say they told Lazaris how many people were left and how much time was left. Does that mean that the people toward the end of the line get less attention if time is running short? Did those people pay less to attend or are they less deserving?

Couldn't Lazaris pick up the energy of the people in the queue to determine how many are left? I mean they focus on our unique energy patterns all the time, don't they?

You wrote:

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Sorry, Ted. As I just wrote to Audrey, I can't reply to every post.

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The issue isn't whether you respond to every post or every issue in a post. The issue here is that you continued your allegations of "debunkerism" after I responded, with no indication of considering my response. I do understand that this forum can get unwieldy and you may have honestly missed my post, so I won't pursue that. I'm not interested in grinding you down. You would not have been given the benefit of the doubt in the J&L room...

You wrote:

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In general terms, however, there is a tendency for people who line up with a cause to stand by that view no matter what the opposition might say. This is as true for "debunkers" as it is for those who hold onto a religion or following, etc.

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Then that could just as easily apply to you, yes? I make no bones that I'm firm in my belief that Jach is an out-and-out fraud. Firm is not the same as unbendable. Though it really doesn't matter whether or not I could be swayed. I hope your purpose here isn't to change my mind. Even if you succeed, so what?

You wrote:

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Since this is a website ordained to "expose" Lazaris and Concept:Synergy, then the term "debunker" is appropriate

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As I've stated before, this is a website that is open to everyone, regardless of their beliefs. At last count there were 1,400 members in the J&L room. I'm quite sure that many of them are aware of this site. If it's a game of numbers, they could easily win, if they choose to post here. It's not a game of numbers. It's an exercise in free speach, freedom of mind, and a search for the Truth.

As for your charges of swarming - would you prefer that we ignore you or agree with you? You write provocative posts and people respond. We're alive.

I don't know what's funnier, the "needless flattering" or the "debunkerism", but I'm rolling.

Thanks for a good laugh.

I do wonder what exactly it is about Lazaris that you are so hellbent on defending.

It sure as hell isn't the material. Is it the rumors of levitation that you so passionately wish we would all get all worked up about?

Oh! How could I miss it...it's the hope that Lazaris might one day say my name!! Right, that would be a blast. Except, I have people saying my name all day every day, and they don't even charge me a dime.
Some of them pay me! Fathom that!

I'll keep my seminar and travel money and just content myself with remaining on the ground with the several thousand people here who already know my name.

Thanks for your concern though.

You wrote:

quote:

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I'm sorry Lazaris never acknowledged you with your name. I can't speak for him, of course. Perhaps he saw
you in the future (now) and that somehow influenced him. I am sure that there are many possible reasons applicable.

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I'm not sorry they never spoke my name. They never were a surrogate lover to me anyway. If the reason was that he saw my future (forget about the fact that they claim we have many possible futures) then we already know that you'll never convince of their authernticity, 'cuz Lazaris woulda seen that too.