Hey All,

In light of Michaell North's recent suicide and Peny's death from undisclosed circumstances, many people have been asking questions.

It appears from what we have learned here and the emails that Jach has sent to selected followers that Concept Synergy is dedicated to manipulating silence around this issue and will shortly decide what to tell its followers to think and feel about it.

In short they will frame a "spiritually acceptable" set of thoughts and feelings for the follower.

They will present a context for those thoughts and feelings for the follower and interpret them accordingly.

Sound familiar? Why, it is rather similar to Lazaris charachterization of the negative ego.

The negative ego thinks for you when you refuse to think for yourself.

The days to come will reveal Concept Synergy's honor or lack of it. Will Concept Synergy adopt the charachter of the negative ego and do the thinking and feeling and interpreting for you?.

Not permitting your own thoughts and feelings due consideration where these tragic, premature deaths are concerned is a dangerous thing.

Someone will think for you if you won't think and feel for yourself. In this case someone with a vested interest in your pocketbook, in my opinion.

Interesting also to note how the behaviour of Concept Synergy in the weeks following Michaell and Peny's sudden deaths has not subscribed to any of what Lazaris teaches about love.

Are they taking responsiblity in terms of addressing the impactof these deaths on those that work with Lazaris and have come to regard Peny and Michaell through instruction and exemplars of a life "spiritually well lived" ?

Do you feel a sense of security? a reduced fear of loss? a sense of being respected?

I would urge anyone in conflict over the treatment they are receiving from Concept Synergy to pull out the higher self book and run down the descripitions of the actions you take to produce the state of being called love.

So if what is coming at you isn't love by any healthy standard, then what is it?

Privacy is a different issue. They only have the right to privacy to the extent that they can shame you into feeling like a slug for asking questions.

And honestly, are people being silent out of respect or out of fear?

And respect to what??? What the hell is being respected?

Please think this through, don't give up your thought and feeling and discernment in order to appease a bunch of people trying to fill a ballroom.

Jeremiah

[This message has been edited by Jeremiah (edited 05-29-2001).]

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Do you feel a sense of security? a reduced fear of loss? a sense of being respected?

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I don't know how anyone could sum it all up or say it better.

There is a lot of compassion in what you write, your concern for others is evident.

You are correct that Con:Sin functions exactly as Lazaris describes the negative ego to. I believe that Jach created the concept as his way of addressing Peny's behavior.

Maybe it was his "passive" way of trying to tell her about herself.

Too bad he gave her that information, but then allowed her to use it as a stick to beat others over the head with.

You recommend the higher self book as containing all the information needed to make this evaluation, and I also recommend the 2000 Year of Dominion tape.

The whole game of power over, and how it will all come to a crashing end as people stand up and take back our power is all laid out in that tape too.

Jach can be pretty prophetic at times, too bad he doesn't take his own advise. Not too astounding, considering that he's been living in the belly of the very beast he describes so well.

Thanks,

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You are correct that Con:Sin functions exactly as Lazaris describes the negative ego to. I believe that Jach created the concept as his way of addressing Peny's behavior.

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Fascinating theory.[g]

Amazing when you think of it, how, not one single soul has ever piped up here in defense of Peny, or Yach's or Michaell's character or behavior.

Sure, there have been plenty of arguments in defense of Lazaris and of the Lazaris material but not one single word of refutation from anyone regarding the horrors this malicious little troika perpetrated.

The closest were some sentiments about how they are only human.

What a ringing endorsement for a woman who only recently was credited for single handedly birthing the new world by one of her brain scrubbed employee/acolytes.

A new world of what? Reclusive obsessed mean assed paranoics who make aromatherapy brews once a year?

No thanks.

These merry pranksters have been "spreading the love" with a pretty high international profile for lo, these 30 years and not a single person has been moved to say anything positive on their behalf.

I remember when I started reading and writing here back in late January how we kept pleading with people to just write one little anectode that demonstrated some bit of kindness or largesse of spirit that Peny or Yach or Michaell had ever commited.

I think the closest we got was Steve remembering that Peny gave him a workshop scholarship once.. lol.. hope I have that right..

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Maybe it was his "passive" way of trying to tell her about herself.

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Another argument for the direct approach whenever possible [g]

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Too bad he gave her that information, but then allowed her to use it as a stick to beat others over the head with.

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Well, honestly I don't think Yach is all that innocent. I wonder just how much secret pleasure from watching her bludgeon people.

I could be wrong of course, and it is just my opinion, but he must have gotten SOMETHING out of watching her assault people time after time or he would have left.

Jach, the unit, may be passive but I don't think he denies himself anything he wants if he can have it.

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The whole game of power over, and how it will all come to a crashing end as people stand up and take back our power is all laid out in that tape too.

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Thanks for what you wrote,

Jeremiah

Yeah, I've been doing a lot of thinking over the past few days about the fact that Peny has left nothing, no contribution to society, no body of work, nothing measurable, zero, zilch, nada, as her heritage.

As you say, the best stories we've ever heard have been underwhelming at best. I think someone told us she bought a baby gift for one of her crystal suppliers in exchange for ripping off her sources. But, I'm still not sure that wasn't good ole Peny herself tooting her own horn. Whoever it was sure had a lot of identities and conflicting stories.

I wonder if her minions ever think about this.

If that woman ever did one thing that even resembled work, I'm sure we would have heard about it. It's hard to fathom that she ever even risked her highly manicured fingernails to open up one of those multitudinous crystal boxes that arrived on her doorstep.

Most of us get up in the morning and DO something, maybe even just scramble up some eggs, or tofu, water the plants, go shopping for food, tidy up a bit. To most of us that would be considered doing nothing, and she didn't even do that much.

Soaking up the sun can hardly be considered a career.

It seems that ALL of Peny's energy went into digging up dirt on people, embellishing it a bit, and spreading it around, and then giving everyone in her presence a seriously hard time. One thing we know about good old Peny, she'd stay up all night fixing up all those negative egos around her.

We have a zillion stories about her doing all that, but not one of anything else, anything real or measurable.

Oh, I guess we could mention the Crystal Cave where the most powerful woman in the Universe worked so hard to cure the ills of the world. But, given that she couldn't even cure herself, I'm not feeling all to groovy about that Crystal Cave these days.

I wonder how all those of the faithful are feeling about their CC requests these days.

Maybe people think Peny just stopped breathing in the middle of the night, that she wasn't sick, that she wasn't having voodoo performed over her bed for 6 months by a bunch of megalomaniacs who were trying to believe their own bullshit.

I've heard it said that a doctor was never called to examine or treat Peny, that for 6 months those bozos did their woo woo dances around her, believing that they were healing her. I heard that Jach said they all thought she was improving, and believed that they could heal her themselves. I guess when you're starting from 100 degrees below zero, zero starts looking pretty good.

Is anyone of those true blues out there thinking about any of this?

God, I wish they would come here and tell us on what basis they could possibly hold that woman in any esteem.

Damn it, I'm even disappointed, and I couldn't stand her.

That anyone continues to express admiration and gratitude to her (for what?) is just more solid evidence to me of complete mind control at work.

Can you imagine her eulogy? What would anyone say? "I remember the time Peny called me on the carpet for 37 hours straight because she caught me smiling at a joke Al Gore told. I can't tell you how grateful I am for all that precious time she spent forcing me to see what a dangerous state I was in. Peny saved me from my inner murderer, and I will never forget her for that."

Cripes! No wonder there was no funeral!

Thank you for your response, and for indulging my little rant.

Katie

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Yeah, I've been doing a lot of thinking over the past few days about the fact that Peny has left nothing, no contribution to society, no body of work, nothing measurable, zero, zilch, nada, as her heritage.

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I have been thinking about it too.

I remember very clearly Peny denouncing Hillary Clinton as a woman who "never did a damned thing for anyone else in her entire life" or something to that effect.

I also remember thinking that when the gang got around to bashing Oprah Winfrey that it was a sacrafice of sorts for Peny's benefit.

I could easily imagine Peny going of on jealous tangents about Oprah while her assasins dutifully took notes.

It was laughable. They called Oprah a racist, driven completely by self interest...hmmm sounds familiar.

This was after they had declared that racism was no longer a problem in this country and that anyone who bellyached about racial prejudice was simply a martyr.

Wouldn't be a bit surprised if they courted Oprah and sent her tapes trying to get her interested in them and she rejected their advances.

After all, she has had Gary Zukov and Marrianne Williamson on her show as guests. I bet they saw her as a sure mark.

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As you say, the best stories we've ever heard have been underwhelming at best. I think someone told us she bought a baby gift for one of her crystal suppliers in exchange for ripping off her sources. But, I'm still not sure that wasn't good ole Peny herself tooting her own horn. Whoever it was sure had a lot of identities and conflicting stories.

I wonder if her minions ever think about this.

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Hard to imagine they could avoid thinking about this. But we hear tales about the extremely controlled environment in which they live.

It saddens me to think of some of the CS employees, the ones who were just the boot lickers and were never elevated to full person status.

What must they be going through?

If what we are told here is true, it sounds like a desperate life.

They are told who they can talk to and who they can't. They are told what they can say and what they can't. They are told what they can read and what they cant.

New world indeed.

Anyone who has been to a workshop knows those people who dutifully sit behind the back table, looking as though they need permission to breathe.

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Soaking up the sun can hardly be considered a career.

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I bet that through the years Peny did attempt a few things, different business and probably had a more hands-on role in the early years of the business.

I bet that her temper and volatility were so unbearable that those around her came to be relieved that she didn't do anything anymore. Let her bitch at the sun.

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Oh, I guess we could mention the Crystal Cave where the most powerful woman in the Universe worked so hard to cure the ills of the world. But, given that she couldn't even cure herself, I'm not feeling all to groovy about that Crystal Cave these days.

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Sad, sad sad.

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That anyone continues to express admiration and gratitude to her (for what?) is just more solid evidence to me of complete mind control at work.

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I am afraid you are correct. I urge anyone reading this in that position to simply think it through. Lazaris often talked about how the most wounding thing a human being can do to another is to mislead them spiritually.

Granting icon status to a person such as Peny had GOT TO QUALIFY

Jeremiah

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If not, surely there are several tapes to help in dealing with theses issue. And if that doesn't help, maybe signing up for a few seminars will.

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LOL

How about " Cultivating your inner sycophant"

" A glorious weekend to free yourself from the prison of self respect"

Cheers,

Jeremiah

You said: I've heard it said that a doctor was never called to examine or treat Peny, that for 6 months those bozos did their woo woo dances around her, believing that they were healing her. I heard that Jach said they all thought she was improving, and believed that they could heal her themselves. "

I guess I just keep wondering what in the hell she died of and why would it be such a deep dark secret? I know the truth will come out but why not say she had heart attack or something? I know you don't have answers but it just seems like not such a big deal to know to the truth.

I do know she used a scientist because posts would read "my scientist says".....I remember a guy that they were very enamored with 10 years ago. He did muscle testing or something. But he made mistake of dropping their name to all the followers who appeared on his doorstep hoping for magic elixir. He would say "oh peny and jach callme all the time." well,that did it for him.

Do you think this is why Jach cancelled the west coast seminars? It was so irresponsible that the only justification I can think of is illness.

I have it from reliable sources that Peny has been ill since Sept or October.

I do not know what the illness was.

I don't think heart problems would manifest that way. Evidently it was something that kept them all very busy caring for her since they reportedly chose not to call in professional assistance.

I'm only speculating, but I think she had a stroke.

We will know the facts when her death certificate becomes available, if it isn't already. It will be a matter of public record. A copy can be obtained from the Florida Orange County public records.

You can order one on the internet for about ten dollars.

Information is power.

It's a shame that Con:Sin has chosen to put people in the position of either feeling ashamed for our very natural curiosity so we can just judge against it and eat it, or sending us out to play "private eye".

That really doesn't feel respectful of Peny's memory to me, but it does appear to be evidence that they have something to hide.

When most people die, the survivors, grievers, and interested onlookers are usually provided with the basic details. That is just common courtesy and allows for closure, as does a funeral or memorial service.

Those secretive wierdos have created this environment, but of course they will judge harshly against anyone who doesn't agree to accept it.

It is they who are creating this lack of closure for people, and in doing so have diminished everyone, including Peny.

More thoughts on the secrecy surrounding Peny's death.

If it is true that the Gang were working to heal Peny, and it comes from reliable sources that they were, that would indicate to me that Peny herself did not want to make this trip.

The death of an "avatar" which is how Lazaris billed Peny, is always a conscious death. That is one bit of evidence that a person has in fact consciously assumed the physical, not out of a need for further growth, but because they made the choice to.

If you can make a conscious choice to live, then you can make a conscious choice to die.

It is clear to me that Peny made no such conscious, joyful choice, and that her death came as quite a shock to her nearest and dearest.

I picture the death of a conscious powerful Magician to be a scene of conscious celebration, or a simple sudden smiling departure, not a protracted illness of months where there are intense efforts to heal the patient.

Lazaris on Peny:

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She is a very special person, one who touches us very deeply -- the one we came to touch because of her particular focus in this lifetime, a focus which she attempted many lifetimes ago and did not succeed in accomplishing, a focus which she tenaciously decided to do again. Therefore has returned three additional times beyond that which was necessary in order to accomplish this focus.

And thus we wanted to talk with her, to be with her, to share her experience and our experience as in this lifetime that focus shall be accomplished -- completing a task begun thousands of years ago in her reality. Many of you are aware of the very special energy of the love and the caring and the insight that Peny provides. That love, that caring, that insight, that gem of an energy that is Peny: It is to experience and to bask in that, that we primarily have come to communicate.

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I can't find the quote right now where Lazaris says that Peny didn't have to come back at all, but made that choice to be a helper to the rest of us.(Savior?)

It has been said that Peny believed that she came very close to singlehandedly preventing the destruction of Atlantis, but was foiled in the last few minutes.

I suppose the spin that we will hear when the Orb finally decides to speak is that Peny spent her last few months completing the work she came here to do...work that was so big and important puny minds like ours could never imagine. I'm betting that they will allege that Peny did work which will assure the safety of the planet. Maybe they will say that the reason for all the secrecy was because she didn't want to alarm people as to the impending doom she was preventing.

I kind of wish that Con:Sin didn't know how much others know, it would be a lot of fun to see what spin they would provide if they were kept as much in the dark about our thoughts as we are about theirs.

One thing is for sure, it will be an interesting ride when they do attempt to navigate these turbulent waters.

I wonder if even they can come up with enough hogwash to tame this tempest.

Katie

I have to correct myself, I have just been informed that the cause of Peny's death will not be made public by the State of Florida, that information is only available to immediate family.

A copy of her death certificate will be or is available, but the cause of death will not be on it.

This is my most recent info.

Sorry for any incorrect information, I just try to report what I'm being told, by sources which I consider to be reliable.

It is of course up to each of us to accept, reject, or amend that information as we see fit.

Katie

Thanks Jeremiah for creating this great thread.

Since memorial day weekend, I've been reading these threads with a new shade of sunglasses; thinking about my friend Per. He's belonged to a cult for some 15+ yrs, and is still under the ether.

It's been so disturbing because, during my time @ Cosmic fool, the persons still under the J/L ether have been unknown to me personally. So I couldn't really feel the pain so much....I couldn't look into their eyes.

The feeling I got from Per, was so much that he's very, very lonely and so lost, so much like the way I imagine con:sin people being lately.

It is so poignant Jeremiah's phrase "feel the love YET"??? Yeah, seems like when you are all dried up and have no more to give to the cult, you personally have so many years invested..... so heavy is this "previous investment trap" Per is unwilling to think that most of his adult life has been for nothing, the end of the world hasn't come, it doesn't even appear to be on the horizon anytime soon, so his teachers premis seems hollow...and what about the love?

He gets up before the crack of dawn to meditate and stare at a pink ORB with a white background... Goes to India, I guess gets alot of love from the other "brothers" and "sisters" much like Rajneesh except wierder.

It is so sad to see Per's life wasted, and now I can feel more deeply the empathy for those coming out of con:sin the ones that are not here yet...
I hope they soon come in droves.

It does get more emotional when you start getting to know people better, to hear the many ways in which this Con:Sin scam has hurt them.

Ted and I can probably award ourselves the honor of having heard more personal stories about that than anyone else on the planet unless you count Jach/zaris. It doesn't seem to bother him at all though.

For that reason, maybe some can grant me their indulgence about the intense emotions I express here sometimes. I am emotional about the pain and confusion and sense of betrayal that has been reported to me by many many people, some who have never posted a word here. People come to me and Ted looking for help. All we can do is direct them to this site, and hope they find it, as many of us have. It is heart rending though, that I will tell you.

Ted, Marilyn and I went through the really hard hard times together, with a good amount of support and love from several others along the way.(some still among the faithful) I was so incredibly grateful once I got my bearings to have had others to talk all this out with. It was a very very emotional and profound time for all of us.

I am delighted that this site has provided a place for others to find the good company of others who are interested in discussing Con:Sin, Lazaris, and the impact of the teachings and behaviors on the followers. That is not a taboo topic here as it is on the Forum.

Sometimes I just feel a sense of awe when I read here, like the recent posts from Nancy and Lynn, where the emotion is so clear and honest.

I know, I've been there! And I do know how good it feels to be looking back rather than
still standing in the questions and doubts.

In saying that I hope it's clear that I'm not trying to come from a place of superior wisdom about all this, just a place of experience.

I still have many questions, but I have no doubts whatsoever that this sharing here is a very very good thing.

This site is not only about anger, although some would attempt to judge it so. It is about emotion, and the free expression of it.

I hope more people come too Aud, but I suspect that there are very few people who have involvement with Con:Sin who haven't already read on this site. Humans see what we want to see, or only what we are ready and comfortable to see, so just like someone recently mentioned that we all here the Lazaris tapes differently, I think it's fair to say that everyone reads what is written here differently too. For some, this is just a bad energy place. Too bad about that, because all and everyone have the ability to create the energy here.

Katie

[This message has been edited by Katie (edited 05-31-2001).]

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Lazaris often talked about how the most wounding thing a human being can do to another is to mislead them spiritually.

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Good to know that Jach/Lazaris can appreciate the the damage they have wrought and continue to perpetuate.

Granting icon status to a person such as Peny had GOT TO QUALIFY[/quote]
Ultimately this was the most obvious tip off to the scam.

On the C:S home page Jach says he lives what "Lazaris" teaches. And that, he, Peny and Michaell, live their metaphysics and their spirituality "all day – all the time."

Love,
Jade

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That love, that caring, that insight, that gem of an energy that is Peny: It is to
experience and to bask in that, that we primarily have come to communicate.

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That's precious. The great Orb came to bask. Maybe Sparky likes tanning too. It's surprising that the earth's atmosphere didn't flash like a sunspot when she passed.

Love,
Jade

"He gets up before the crack of dawn to meditate and stare at a pink ORB with a white background... Goes to India, I guess gets alot of love from the other "brothers" and "sisters" much like Rajneesh except wierder."

Hello, Audrey,

I was touched by the description of your friend. Your mention of Rajneesh was something I've been looking for due to a personal situation.

My daughter's father joined Rajneesh 25 years ago and he is still with them. He is now teaching seminars in Europe, quite high up in the organization. Meanwhile, he has never bothered to come and meet his one and only child. She has suffered much from his inconsistent advances toward her--when she was 13, after years of not being in touch we tried to reach him, but when I learned that he was still with the cult, I was terribly alarmed and realized we would not be able to stay in touch with him at all. So she has been fatherless. His communication with us has basically been, "Come to Rajneesh." (Now called Osho) It is so, so sad for her, and was very difficult for me as well although we've both survived just fine. Any news out there from readers about the current state of affairs with the Rajneeshies, I'd be grateful. Because I'm wondering if it has gotten any better, if we can try to contact her father again so she can get to know him in this lifetime.

Really, this whole thing with Michaell North, Peny, etc. dying saddens me so, but it is a wonderful opportunity. Come on, guys, it's time to bring it all down. It's time to pull the curtain down, tell it like it is. A class action law suit comes to mind. Or any number of other tactics, organized well, deployed all at the same time. It would be very healing and cleansing for so many people.

When people are hurt, when they are the most vulnerable, when they are suffering deeply from life's many inevitable challenges...these parasites, like ole' Concept Synergy here, stand there and wait. People fall into the trap so easily then. Just when they are the most vulnerable. This manipulation is one of the most despicable forms of cruelty.

We got to bring them all down, and quick. I'll help if I can. This forum is all fine and good, but let's take action here. Let's get real practical, get a pro bono attorney who is willing to take the case. And/or in addition, there are many ways to go about this, but I'll stop short of divulging all the tactics. There are many. We can use them. And we will win. Sooner or later, we will win. For all the poor souls like Audrey's friend, for my daughter's father who apparently like Michaell North abandoned his child, and for us to reclaim ourselves and tell these people that "WE'RE MAD AND WE AREN'T GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE"--for the sake of so many lost souls...we have to get much more practical than this, although this is a superb start.

The goal here would be to set a new precendent, new laws, that protect people from this stuff. There needs to be a standard spelled out for it. Yes, religious freedom needs protection. But mind control and brainwashing, belittling seminar participants in order to break their self-esteem, power trips and hierarchies based on "yes-ism", undisclosed hypnosis, undisclosed psychological tactics--there need to be more explicit laws against that. Heck, you have to disclose what is in a box of Cheetohs, don't you? Well, these organizations need to disclose what they are doing, what tactics they use. By law. While still protecting people's freedom to learn and grow. There CAN be a balance here.

Of course this means you'd be putting most of corporate American in jail, too. Just kidding. But, no, I mean that seriously.

With the Information Age, with the Biotech Revolution, don't you think it's about time we acknowledge the human right to psychic integrity and start to define as a society what exactly this right to freedom looks like and sounds like? Hitler should never have happened, but it was a bunch of well meaning people who said yes to a lunatic.

We'd better get to work and dare to dream about how to creatively legislate this and still retain the precious right to religious and political freedom. I do believe we can come up with this new model. If we can put people in space, surely we can draft something like this.

There probably are laws on the books now about psychological manipulation, but these laws need to be tested more. Any attorneys out there who specialize in this? In fact they got Rajneesh out of the U.S. on tax evasion, they got him just like they did Al Capone. But they ought to have been able to confront him about the brainwashing and nabbed him on that.

Sigh. But see, WE have participated in this. We have paid our good money to say....okay, I'll buy Lazaris--who by the way is apparently a disembodied something or other from who knows where. I'll buy this first lie, and then it was so, so easy to buy even more lies after that. This, they say, is the anatomy of cult creation. If they can pursuade you to believe the first lie, then it is easy to justify believing even more lies after that. "And, even though Peny and Jach are mean and selfish--hey, I'll just pretend that isn't happening, at least for a while, because it feels oh, so warm and cozy in here," we'd say to ourselves.

So we supported this. Now that we have realized we goofed, we need to do more than just whine about it and sound pompous about how we've seen the light. We need to get real grown up about it and do something.

Those are my thoughts for the day, for what they're worth.

Love and Light,
Kaitlyn

Welcome!

It really breaks my heart to hear stories like what happened with your daughter and her father. Thank you for sharing it. I'm not sure if you are aware of it, but I've heard here that Michaell North abandoned his young daughter (I think she was around 8). We've heard one person say Peny was behind this. Now isn't that the pinnacle of spirituality?

Speaking of lawyers, even if one is not willing to take on the case pro bono, I hope we could get opinion on what, if any, grounds we have for legal action within the existing laws.

Cheers, Craig

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Come on, guys, it's time to bring it all down. It's time to pull the curtain
down, tell it like it is. A class action law suit comes to mind. Or any number of other tactics,organized well, deployed all at the same time. It would be very healing and cleansing for so many people.

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My idea of a happy ending. IMO these people are sleazy sociopathic shysters whose only concern is money and power. I am interested in any suggestions you or others have to offer. There must be some attorneys who specialize in this area.

At this point probably the person who could file a suit with the most obvious grievance is Michaell's daughter. We have written a lot on this board about hypnosis and mind control. Proving that is important as far as a class action is concerned.

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If they can pursuade you to believe the first lie, then it is easy to justify
believing even more lies after that.

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Now that we have realized we goofed, we need to do more than just whine about
it and sound pompous about how we've seen the light.

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Don't know that I agree with you about "whine" and "pompous." This message board, for instance, gathers and provides information. It is an excellent meeting place and has been a great support for many , including myself, in shinning light on the deception of "Lazaris" and crew. But I do agree with the rest of your post, especially about legislation to prevent these groups from invading people's minds.

Hope you will be posting again.

Jade

[[[Really, this whole thing with Michaell North, Peny, etc. dying saddens me so, but it is a wonderful opportunity. Come on, guys, it's time to bring it all down. It's time to pull the curtain down, tell it like it is. A class action law suit comes to mind. Or any number of other tactics, organized well, deployed all at the same time. It would be very healing and cleansing for so many people.

When people are hurt, when they are the most vulnerable, when they are suffering deeply from life's many inevitable challenges...these parasites, like ole' Concept Synergy here, stand there and wait. People fall into the trap so easily then. Just when they are the most vulnerable. This manipulation is one of the most despicable forms of cruelty. ]]]

I have to run, and I will probably write more later about this, but one thing I wanted to point out is that there are a lot of people who would certainly find some healing in having whatever evils are at C:S exposed, but there are still so many who just aren't willing to question any of it.

Many relationships are being tested by those who are questioning, and while it hurts to lose friends, I think it also hurts to watch people struggle to not let the light in, struggle to find a way to stay enmeshed. But there are many for whom that is true and so they would look to what you are suggesting (and I support you) as such an annhilation of their world that many heretofore uninlisted ranks would come flying out of the woodwork like the soldier termites and seek to chew down any legal fronts in an instant.

It is very complex, complicated, frustrating, mind numbing...

What a shame for your daughter's sake. But, on the other hand, she has not been dragged down by his beliefs either. The abandonment was enough, to then be re-enveloped by him and his woo-woo would have been even more devastating.

PJ

It would be easy to prove that CS uses hypnosis, because I am currently studying for my hypnotherapy certification, and there it all is. Step by step. Any court of law, or jury, if presented with the evidence correctly, would not be able to deny that J/L's "meditations" follow the technique of simple hypnosis. And there would be nothing wrong with that if it were disclosed. But how many people do you think would have bought "group hypnosis" seminars if it had been advertised properly as such? Would people have become such devout believers, buying all the bizarre stories lock, stock and barrel? No, I don't believe that marketing technique would have appealed to too many people.

Thanks, also, for your kind comments about my daughter. Yes, it has been heartbreaking. But I also feel compassion for her father, who I only knew for 2.5 months before he became a disciple of Rajneesh and did a runner. It can happen to anyone. Anybody who thinks they are immune to cult-ish thinking is naive beyond belief. Anyone, if in a vulnerable enough state, can be snared. So her father was just another one. Fortunately there is always a possiblity for healing.

More later,
Kaitlyn

I read your story and just wanted to let you know, that I was deeply involved with Osho for about 16 years. I knew him personally, and was there, through the years in India as well as the "big muddy" ranch days in Oregon.

I am no longer a sannyasin and haven't been since around 1994 - 96, I am also not a Con.Sinner.

I am so sorry to hear that your daughter's father abandoned her, and that he abandoned you too. It is unfortunately something I have seen happening many times.

I might be able to provide you with answers to some of your questions. So if you feel that somethings have remained unanswered regarding Osho and sannyas, then you are welcome to email me at:

H.

[This message has been edited by Helena (edited 08-11-2001).]

I was touched by your post to Kaitlyn. I hope that your experience will help Kaitlyn and her daughter sort through things. One of the most difficult burdens to remove one's self from is that of being abandonned, IMO, because you ask yourself over and again what is so wrong with yourself as to have driven those who "should" have loved you to leave you instead.

Understanding what the desire to be loved can do to people--that it can devour them enough to take over their minds and pull them magnetically towards a cult or anything which says "we love you", leaving you behind to wonder "was it me?" before concluding that it was not, takes immense healing, and then compassion and wisdom, and forgiveness, too.

I hope, Kaitlyn, that your daughter and you are able to heal in your way and not be ashamed of his desertion.

One of the most difficult things about all of my questioning is that it means relationships are shifting, or in some cases, ending. Even though I have not solved the riddle yet as to whether or not Lazaris is real, I am over. Done. Cold turkey, I have quit the "organization" we'll call it. This is not the case for others in my life and it causes some bruising.

I know now that some of my friends consider me dangerous and hold me in high suspicion. That is why I am not eager to make snap judgements about what is what. There are a lot of people still associated with Lazaris for whom I have care and concern. As I was mentioning to another poster on your board, Helena (for those reading along, the address is on H's post in this thread), it is extremely important to me to keep clear what I say and not be credited with what I haven't said, what I haven't yet declared to believe because my questioning not only impacts me, but others I care about.

For many of us, this is not just about finding out that Peny was a lout. It is about deconstructing an entire life's structure. It requires patience, healing, faith in the future, and lots of love. When I had to look at the truth, when I had to see that for all the growth I was experiencing, trying to please Peny was not only immature, but exacted a lot of power from me at many levels, when I saw this clearly, my heart broke.

How could Lazaris have let this happen? Who is Lazaris anyway? Have I been projecting parent on him all this time?

I did a Tarot spread a couple of days after I started in with my heaviest questions and the card for "Is Lazaris real?" was the Devil. It was so clear to me then: I have been under an infulence of something which I don't fully understand and to which I have given away my life's energy, no matter what I thought I was getting in return.

I am not prepared to say that Lazaris is "the Devil." But, if you are not familiar with the Tarot, the Devil signifies that you are under an undue burden and giving your power away without getting in return what you thought. Dorian Gray, or Faust would be the literal sorts of victims of the Devil, but it does not mean that the one taking the power is necessarily evil, just put in place by us as the "bloodsucker" in our life.

This is very difficult. Love and patience are esssential.

Pippa

[This message has been edited by Pippa John (edited 08-11-2001).]

What a wonderful discovery this all has been, and a great research tool. Thank you, too, Katie, for being brave enough to get this going. All the time and effort is much appreciated.

I've written Helena on the side to get more info about the Rajneesh experience to work on making sense of my personal journey with my daughter.

And P. John, who I assume is male, I am grateful for your heartfelt comments. Good to know that there are some men who get it (if indeed you are one). I feel no shame, only embarassed that our society is so lame when it comes to truly supporting single women with children--not financially, for I have done that fairly well on my own, but with true regard for the courage we have to muster every day just to celebrate the beauty that is our Life. But that's another story.

I have to say, after reading more notes tonight in this formidable body of material--Peny and Jach were PRO-BUSH?!! Well, good grief, that tells all.

Love and Light,
Kaitlyn

I like to pull out my Motherpeace Tarot deck when I want clarity about a situation. In this deck is the chapter "Devil -- Denying the Spirit." It says, "When you get this card in a reading, the message is that you are in bondage to some power. You are in some way subscribing to the dominance-submission mentality, and the issue of power is at stake."

Also pertinent, "To release yourself from the bondage inherent in the Devil card, it will be necessary to confront your reality at a very deep level. You must look at the supposed rewards you reap from whatever game you are involved in, whatever situation holds you captive, and try to see beyond its "unreal" and addictive aspects into its totality.

Addiction and codependency to the Orb have also been important topics here.

Shortly, after I stopped my involvement with J/L, another situation involving my giving up power shifted. I had worked on this particular situation for many years while following J/L, then suddenly it changed, like I had to get free of the Orb for freedom to come in other areas.

I found a great resource today which maybe you know about already--the American Family Federation. They have study resources on how to identify a cult, and here is one of the links you can copy and paste:

http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studycult/study_whatisdescult.htm

The item that is most to the point is that a cult is a hierarchy, with one undisputed authority and with self-appointed leaders. Jach and Peny, i.e. were the self-appointed leaders. "God" is Lazaris, which is unprovable of course and often it was implied that he was here even BEFORE God, as I recall. That's where those cats totally lost me. I enjoyed the "mediations" (group hypnosis, remember), with that wonderful sense of relaxation, etc., just like a potent drug--but I NEVER thought that Lazaris, and hence Jach and Peny, were IT. Luckily I never met Peny, either, and was saved from having to make an excuse for her.

Anyway, I've been poking around and there are non-profits dedicated to cult-busting. Whoever is serious about putting a stop to this nonsense, or at least slowing the beast down, I do believe there are experts ready to take it on.

I read today that a Chicago-based group called Cult Awareness Network (CAN) won about 50 judgements against the Scientologists. They did also lose a major case and there was a multi-million dollar settlement against them which may have put them out of business. That lawsuit was brought on behalf of a mother who claimed her children had been "kidnapped" into a cult. Her case did not stand. I don't know the particulars, but obviously there are perameters that must be carefully followed to allow for religious freedom. It's a gray area, and attorneys that specialize in this will know what those perameters are. At the very least, you can put a serious dent in their pocketbooks just like they did in yours.

So far, it seems to me, CS is treading carefully, very carefully. I am sure they have attorneys advising them on what would and would not be construed as cult-like cohersion. However, based on the definition of cults and the link to AFF above, I'd say that there are still many cult-like aspects to CS that are easily proveable. More than just the one I mentioned. (Accusations of "negative ego" to keep people in check are on the list, check it out.)

Many of us like to learn and explore new ideas and new spiritual perspectives. This is a wonderful thing.

But, for the Love of God, woe be to the dummies who try to force us into anything for their own profit and power, using authoritarian tones, undisclosed hypnosis, belittling tactics of all sorts. Hiding how weak and crazed they themselves are. It is so human to try to do that. It is also our human responsibility to ourselves and to each other to keep that from happening.

Love and Light,
Kaitlyn

I like the Motherpeace interpretations--I have the Tarot Compendium by Jana Riley and even though I don't use the Motherpeace deck, I like the way the author thinks as indicated in Riley's book.

[[[Shortly, after I stopped my involvement with J/L, another situation involving my giving up power shifted. I had worked on this particular situation for many years while following J/L, then suddenly it changed, like I had to get free of the Orb for freedom to come in other areas.]]]

Yes, this has happened thricefold in my life since I walked away from the trip I was on with the whole purple woo-woo express. There are three ways in which I am just "been there, done that" and moved on since I began to question. They are all areas which were hanging me up before. I haven't solved them, but I know what is up now.

Once out of the set, as L himself would say, you can see things differently.

By the way, I think the fireworks icons are the best, and you come up with a lot of very nifty icons, too.

Pippa

I'm glad this thread has been put back up at the top, cuz it's always poignant.

Regarding the Rajneesh situation, it still saddens me to think of it, and greatly saddens me to HEAR directly a personal story of a family torn apart, even though we know this happens so much in cults.

Kaitlyn, I think you will find the resolution sooner or later, I know I cannot fully comprehend the pain of what you have gone through,,,,

I guess it will always feel like your husband was(somehow) stolen from you. One positive note is that I do think it is difficult to find "lifetime" members of these nasty cults....people seem to find the holes in the theory,... and see the humaness of those holier than thou leaders..usually the sick side of human nature in it's full gory--glory...!!!
I hope the end comes as swiftly for "Osha" as I'd like to see it come for "the Jachass"

The FELLOW-FOLLOWERS are some of the tenacious problems with these cults, I see them as the glue that keeps it together, and if one by one they fall away, then the structure can start to fall....

**destroy the family**is one of the big manipulations that Scientology plays with it's followers... I have heard that this is the issue behind Nicole Kidman and Tom Cruz's break-up, she is going against a very powerful entity in Hollywood if she has chosen to do battle with them.!!

I know Nicole's life is "charmed" to say the least, and she will never see the financial difficulties that "normal" people do...

I am sure Kaitlyn could us the extra $$ that the father would normally bring to the relationship....raising a child these days...especially in the USA must be very expensive..
and that makes me soooo mad to have heard about those disgusting 57 burgundy Rolls Royces...I could just hurl....

That brings to mind the lawsuit issue though...I do know that so many have tried to sue Scientology, and that there has been legislation passed to AID cults in their ability to corrupt peoples lives just because of the strength of THAT (scientology)organization...

but I'm not beyond feeling optomistic because Con;sin is so far Out there, and have done some things that clearly seem subliminal in nature.
I dunno now that I think of it though Scientology would also meet that criteria..
I guess we do need "expert advice"

This message board can help us hook up & better fight this type of organization, at the very least help in it's being seen in the full light of day...that will make more wicked witches of the west boil and bubble and burn, like Peee North finally did.....

***one down...how many to go??

I heard that Jachass is losing weight???? Could that be... because he finally saw(close and in HIS FACE)... how truly bad a HIGH FAT- HIGH GREED diet is FOR YA!!!!

WELL....sorry jach-ass ole' boy.... doubt you can erase all that SCUM floatin' in your veins and aroundheart muscle at your ripe age!!!!!!!!!! JUST GIVE LAZARIS MAJICK A TRY WON'T-YA!!!!!

carrying all that guilt must be a heavy LOAD to bear as well....how does BIZZARUSS get rid of THAT!!!!!!!!!!!

as Steve sez... "You can kiss my low-fat aerobically fit BUTT"(or sumthin' like that)
*****ADD--Guilt free********

"DING-DONG...the witch is dead..the wicked witch is dead"...YEAH JACHASS...go-'head chow down on anuther chocolate covered DING-DONG--WON'T-YA...heh heh heh heh......
***that'll quicken the freedom of all the little munchkins in the village, one way or another!!!!!