I hope this isn't too confusing. I'm trying to continue the topic from the Suicide thread in which we are discussing Lazaris' endorsement of Peny, and how it plays to our sense of trust in the rest of the teachings.

I'm posting some of the more recent posts below, rather than try to copy all of them from the original.

Originally posted by Susan:

quote:

---

Repeating Lynn's quote of Jade's quote....

quote:
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"Lazaris" said that Peny was such a bright spirit that he came to this reality to be with her. He said she attracted him because she was so evolved that she didn't need to return to this plane, but chose to because she knew her help would be needed.
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And that's a confusing point to me. In Lazaris' scenario of what happens when you die, they said after the initial experience and a period of hibernation/soul searching (I'm paraphrasing greatly), we decide whether we want to come back. So everyone makes that choice -- whether we've gotten everything we came to get on earth plane or not, or so I understand. So no one needs to come back really, otherwise the choice isn't ours.

Does anyone have any words of wisdom about that?

Also, about Michaell's mysterious daughter: I'm waiting until the facts come in, so I have to side with fingerprince on this one (at least for now). Among my friends are two fathers who have been kept out of a child's life by the mother -- and unjustly, I believe. Sick, manipulative mothers poisoning the kid with untruths and making it extremely difficult for the father to see the child (who, after all the brainwashing, is not happy to see the father anyway), all the while collecting the child support payments. In both cases, the father is hurt very dearly (and both of my friends are fine upstanding people with a heart of gold). I haven't heard the mothers' stories, but whatever the reason for the cut-off is no reason to deny a child from knowing their father (outside of being a serial killer or something).

Who knows whether a similar situation applies to Michaell. But I'm willing to wait and see (although I hope we don't have to wait forever)! The hypothesis that Peny encouraged/insisted on no communication with the daughter is certainly believable from what you all are reporting.

Thanks for reading!
Susan

TedV
Member posted 05-25-2001 02:13 PM
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Hi Susan,
You wrote:

quote:
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So no one needs to come back really, otherwise the choice isn't ours.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have pointed out this inconsistency in here previously.

You wrote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does anyone have any words of wisdom about that?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe Lazaris isn't as consistent as they claim to be? Consistency one of Lazaris' criteria for determining the value of an orb. Apparently they don't live up to their own standards.

This is not the only inconsistency. Another major one is their early claims of the benefits of vegetarianism. Later they suggested more meat in people's diets - after Peny and the Gang got sick of tofu, I guess.

And, of course if one believes that guided meditations are a form of hypnosis - as our resident hypnosis expert consurs - then their claim to never hypnotise us without our explicit permission is a major "inconsistency".

Cheers, Ted

TedC
Junior Member posted 05-25-2001 02:31 PM
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Ted,
I appreciated your reply. I felt like you gave me due consideration with what I had to say without condemning me. It makes it much easier to reply when such respect is present.

You wrote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peny has put her interpretations of Lazaris' words in the Forum and then said she had spoken with Lazaris and they confirmed her interpretations. These are interpretation that I found to be very dubious. For example, Lazaris said on the 1999 tape (I think it was that one) that Americans need to come to grips with the fact that not everyone in the world shares our ideals and beliefs. Peny (and the Gang) interpreted that to mean that we should arm ourselves to the teeth because others don't have the respect for freedom or human life that we have. You can listen to Lazaris' own words to see if that makes sense to you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with you that that sounds like a skewed interpretation. I also think it's very presumptuous to put an interpretation on his words and then say he agrees with it. If he wanted to say that, he would have said it! She should have been called on it. I take it however that this was your whole beef with the forum, she would silence you if you disagreed, or sic the gang on you for public humiliation.

What does it say about Lazaris? Well, I'm not sure. Firstly, they weren't saying the same thing. If Lazaris was fake, why wouldn't he just confirm her words? I think your point may be that he confirms them by silence and by his general praise of her. I cannot say this is not a valid way to see it. It certainly is a possible way. There is another way.

The one thing I always thought was strange about Lazaris was the Peny deal. I didn't understand it but not knowing anything about her, it was possible to overlook. Now I know something about her. She wasn't very spiritual. My take now is, who knows? I could spin it, but I'm sure it would mean nothing to you, and not even much for me. Bottom line, I don't need to believe Peny was a spiritual person to believe in Lazaris, nor does Lazaris' praise lead me to believe that it was deception (*see footnote). I will leave that between him and her. What I need to believe about Lazaris is that his teachings (and his praise of Peny can hardly be considered teachings) are consistent, applicable, relevant, positive, helpful, wise and spiritual. If that is the case, I do not need an intermediate to interpret those words, the words stand on there own. If someone wants to spin them in another direction, it's their reality, not mine. I don't think Lazaris would say its his responsibility to make sure everyone understands what he is saying. He has always said, he is not the guru. Why make someone else into a guru in his name?

I was at the Millennium seminar. Interesting how you noticed his "gushing" whereas I can't recall more than a reference to her arranging it. You and I are indeed creating different realities.

You wrote:

quote:
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(Jach and Michaell) have built themselves up as spiritually superior and Lazaris has done nothing to discourage these "projections". "Lazaris" also just happens to speak from Jach's perspective at seminars. Most significant, but not exclusively, is the case where "Lazaris" told a woman to distance herself from her mother. You can read about that on this page. Look for posts from Wiser Crone.
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Again, it's a question of interpreting Lazaris' silence. To my knowledge, Lazaris has never put down anyone. I doubt he ever will. To me, the silence, rather than confirming, may be "I don't need to tell you what to believe, figure it out for yourself." He certainly did have a lot to say on better than attitudes and spiritual superiority. Does he really need to say this particular person is full of crap for people to recognize it? As for the personal advice about mother, I don't have enough info to comment.

You wrote:

quote:
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The best way to "let" us believe what we want is to shut the F*** up. Why didn't they just "let" us believe what we wanted about Peny's character, instead of ramming their sycophantic, obsessive drivel down our throats? Why not just "let" us believe what we want about reality creation, Sirius, King Arthur, etc.? The death of Princess Diana? They got lots to say about anything that doesn't reflect poorly on Peny. They almost never spoke about weight issues, even though it's a major issue for many people.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again, Peny. The difference between you and me seems to be that for you, his praise of Peny was his core teaching. To me, it's almost an idiosyncrasy. Why bother if it's not relevant to you? If you find what is relevant to be harmful, that's another issue, and one I would certainly be interested in exploring further.

I understand that you were harmed by Peny and that she was spreading her own ideology under the guise of speaking for the wise one and hiding behind his silence and general praise. It's not pretty. It lead you to abandon your beliefs. I maintain my beliefs for reasons I have stated. If you feel I'm being inconsistent or deceptive, I invite your further comments. It helps me to discuss Lazaris with someone from your perspective. Every core belief needs critical introspection. It also helps me when disagreements are kept in perspective and don't become personal, derogatory or vindictive. Others have suffered this from some who post here and this has made me somewhat gun-shy. I hope you and I and any who respond to this post can be respectful and considerate of those with whom we share our ideas and feelings.

TedC

* If you feel that it is impossible for an entity the like of Lazaris to, in all honesty, praise and coddle someone of the ilk of Peny, that either implies some understanding of what Lazaris can and cannot honestly say, or some projection of what such an entity can or can't say, either is quite a stretch (obviously there are boundaries, all I'm saying is that this particular one is somewhat murky). Did you ever read Conversations with God, Book II? God professes his love of Hitler and says that he definitely went to heaven. What does that mean? It would be easy to dismiss the book as fraudulent based on the quote out of context. However he is making a point, some may agree, some may not but what is clear is that it isn't said to willfully deceive or mislead. Similarly dismissing Lazaris for his out-of-context praise is easy. For me, since quite frankly I don't understand it, it becomes a matter of deferring judgement given the context of all of his teachings. My belief is, if he was trying to deceive or mislead, such deception would not be limited to praise of Peny. He would have an agenda and his agenda would be apparent. If he has one, I haven't seen it. If you say, the promotion, expansion and enrichment of C:S, that may be Jach's agenda, it may have been Peny and Michaell's, I don't see it as Lazaris'.

Susan
Junior Member posted 05-25-2001 06:20 PM
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Ted V --

quote:
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I said:
So no one needs to come back really, otherwise the choice isn't ours.
You said:
I have pointed out this inconsistency in here previously.

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Sorry Ted. I didn't see it. Still don't find it, but I take your word for it because there's days and days of reading and searching here!

quote:
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This is not the only inconsistency. Another major one is their early claims of the benefits of vegetarianism. Later they suggested more meat in people's diets - after Peny and the Gang got sick of tofu, I guess.
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Ya, I always wondered how Lazaris knew not only which, but also which brands of, herbs and things were good for us earthlings. I concluded the information had to have come from Peny, who I had the impression had expert health advisors. It would have been nice if Lazaris had credited his source of information, tho, if that's where it came from (rather than from their implied bigger-picture view of us outside our "set").

Cheers back, Ted!
Susan

[This message has been edited by Susan (edited 05-25-2001).]

Jade
Member posted 05-25-2001 06:20 PM
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Hi Ted C,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What I need to believe about
Lazaris is that his teachings (and his praise of Peny can hardly be considered teachings) are consistent, applicable, relevant, positive, helpful, wise and spiritual.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Much more than "praise" is involved here."Lazaris" said he came to be with Peny. And, he has been accessible beyond his relationship with her only because she made a decision to "share" him with others.
Basically everyone but Peny is second string. But now that she's gone....

If L wouldn't be here without Peny, it's impossible to dismiss her behavior as irrelevant. Or forget that Jach is her former husband.

Best to you,
Jade

Posted by Jade:

Hi Susan,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who knows whether a similar situation applies to Michaell. But I'm willing to wait and see(although I hope we don't have to wait forever)! The hypothesis that Peny encouraged/insisted on no communication with the daughter is certainly believable from what you all are reporting.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I too know of situations where a noncustodial parent has been bad mouthed and kept from seeing a child. I'd feel more inclined to discuss the daughter's situation if she were to seek information or offer it.

Jade

Posted by Katie:

Hi All,
The FACT is that Lazaris' endorsement of Peny as the most powerful magician in the universe did and does serve to afford her a power which she did abuse.

The only question in my mind now is how is Jach going to function without her endorsement and protection.

I hope he finds that he cannot.

It's time for this charade to end. We have more than documented here that it has hurt more people than it has helped.

Peny and Lazaris' apologists do not provide any solution to the problem of the undisputed abuse.

They just blame it on the abused and move merrily along, providing a million mind bending rationalizations and justifications, none of which serve to help anyone or solve any problems.

So far, all I'm getting from the apologists is that everyone should just bite the bullet on the unconscionable behavior and groove on with Lazaris.

It's gotten to the point that the arguments in support of Lazaris' value dispute even Lazaris himself, so in fact they aren't even pro-Lazaris arguments.

I still hold that those of us who have left the fold understand the material far far better than those who remain true blue, so the arguments for Lazaris become arguments against the teachings and materials.

It's all a little nuts to me.

Ultimately, I could care less who believes in Lazaris and who doesn't. I just wish the arguments in his defense made some kind of sense.

Maybe I'll continue to have interest in participating when someone who actually learned the materials has something to say.

Until then, I continue to view this very unproductive and unpleasant dialogue as a successful diversion from the serious issues at hand.

Katie

Posted by Jade:

Hi Katie,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So far, all I'm getting from the apologists is that everyone should just bite the bullet on the unconscionable behavior and groove on with Lazaris.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, this is pretty frustrating; seems that defending the legitimacy of "Lazaris" is the only concern of true believers.

Spirituality is an unknown reality. A solitary, unguided, maybe even unprotected journey is scary compared to having story, structure, technique, love and protection as promised to "Mapmakers" by "Lazaris." I think this is the crux of the intense denial. It's understandable. The sincere spiritual seeker finds security, with "Lazaris" in an arena where there appears to be none. Bottom line is that the very idea of life without "Lazaris" and his teachings permeating one's life, frightens people to the core. It requires a great deal of mental, emotional and spiritual house cleaning. there is a temporary void to be reckoned with, and a lot of soul searching minus the stacks of tapes.

I think its hard for many true believers to imagine that trust in the love and goodness of the universe is very much more palpable without L. At least that is my experience.

Love,
Jade

Countryside
Junior Member posted 05-26-2001 08:01 AM
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Hi Katie,
I do enjoy our chances to exchange as I appreciate your perspectives. Thank you for your initiatives.

Katie wrote the items in "".

"The FACT is that Lazaris' endorsement of Peny as the most powerful magician in the universe did and does serve to afford her a power which she did abuse."

Based on what I see here, there is certainly a prima facia body of evidence supporting this. Based on what has been said about some of her actions, had they happened to me, I would certainly feel abused. I am fortunate in that I was "rejected" in having this exposure. CS did me a great favor in doing so.

"It's time for this charade to end. We have more than documented here that it has hurt more people than it has helped."

Based on the postings on this site, there is certainly sufficient documentation that many were hurt, and the numbers posting here seem to be more than those helped. Given the nature of this site, I would be surprised to see many posting who took the side of Lazaris.

Based on what has been posted here, there is enough of a suggestion that more were hurt. It is possible that some were not aware of any hurt, so I question whether claims that they were hurt are valid. I am not debating the tactics nor the exposure the possibility of hurt based on the tactics. The question in my mind is where to draw the line of trying to be responsible for the thoughts and feelings of another. Claiming that another was hurt even though they are unaware crosses this line for me, particularly in the dimension of spirit.

"Peny and Lazaris' apologists do not provide any solution to the problem of the undisputed abuse."

I am an apologist for neither. In my mind, there is no possible response which will acceptably answer the challenge above. I think that the best that can be done is to offer different perspectives and to suggest that those who feel abused try the perspective on to see if it helps. As I see it, this is something that is a case by case basis, not a "one size fits all." Given the nature of this site, working through each case in public just won't work in my opinion.

"They just blame it on the abused and move merrily along, providing a million mind bending rationalizations and justifications, none of which serve to help anyone or solve any problems."

For myself, this represents the flip side of going too far in being responsible for another, that of not going far enough. Since this is one of my "life issues", I find hanging around here to have value, as I have not yet struck a balance which works for me.

"So far, all I'm getting from the apologists is that everyone should just bite the bullet on the unconscionable behavior and groove on with Lazaris."

I see in this discussion multiple sub-issues which are interrelated. Given the interrelationship of the sub-issues, it is easy to go from one to another. In my experience with this site, I have found it difficult to follow the discussion at times.

"I still hold that those of us who have left the fold understand the material far far better than those who remain true blue, so the arguments for Lazaris become arguments against the teachings and materials."

This may be true, but I cannot see any merits to the realization beyond the observation that you have gotten whatever value you can from the material. To me, the house of spirit is one with many rooms. Our spiritual development, I believe, is one of many paths, filling these different rooms with the furnishings we find appropriate. When we have filled a room to our satisfaction, by whatever means, and meeting whatever "higher" approval we find important, we can move on. I rely on input from other sources to help understand. I am willing to make this allowance for others. As my understanding increases, the continuing value of another source decreases. At some point I have to acknowledge it's time to move on, either finding a new room or a new source. Your posting above suggests this realization for yourself and for others as it relates to the Lazaris material. There may be some who find value as they develop their spiritual awareness, filling whatever room they are working on.

I agree with others who have posted that there is a danger in relying on one outside source for our spiritual development. Unfortuanately, in my experience, a single source can be a seductive dependency, where we pace our development on the teachings of the source. In spite of a skepticism developed early in my teens, I fell victim to this seduction, not with Lazaris but with another organization. Although I did know better, I allowed myself to forget, finding the path of seduction easier than the path of self discovery. When I realized what I had done or allowed, I started looking around. It was at this time I happened upon the teachings of Lazaris.

In the teachings I found a different perspective which renewed my forgotten skepticism. Hence I gave credit to the teachings as having had value to me. I am not defending the teachings, simply acknowledging that I got value. As I have stated elsewhere, there is nothing in the teachings that I have exposed myself to that I have not been able to find a preceeding source of something similar - although my exposure to the full set of teachings is much more limited than many who post here.

"Maybe I'll continue to have interest in participating when someone who actually learned the materials has something to say."

If you can try the perspective I've offered above, I suggest that your suggestion is one that will not be fulfilled as it represents a paradox in its statement. Once the materials have been mastered, it is time to move on. If they are mastered, those that understand them will move on and the discussion will not be of interest. I make this statement based on the experiences that have been reported by others including yourself, not based on my own, so I may be out of bounds here. I admit to having not mastered the material, because I haven't tried and don't find trying a necessary step in what I am trying to do.

A Wandering Fool,
Chuck

---

Maybe someone else is interested in taking instruction from this person.

As I've stated many times over, I have no interest.

quote:

---

Hell Katie,

I have read through the write-up on your web page. I also have one hell of a
lot of Lazaris tapes and have consistently incorporated all of his
suggestions, as best I could, if I considered them in line with my own
experience, into my own view of the physical / spiritual universes.

However, it was only "the" ideas (not "his" ideas) that I trusted. Never
him. That was because I had no means of verifying him one way or the other.
In the absence of personally experienced validations made from many points
of view, with never a contradiction being revealed, I would not trust my own
mother. Unconditional love is something you can encourage. But trust has to
be reserved for universally applicable principles which have been applied
from every conceivable viewpoint and which still cannot be faulted no matter
how much they have been tested.

The only way to live is to do it yourself. You had affinity for Lazaris.
What happens every time you decide to have affinity for anyone or anything?
You let down your guard. You are trusting that someone or something, just
because you like the look of them. Why ever do that?

Unjustified affinity is unjustifiable. Not only that, but what happens next.
You are attracted to someone or something, so you communicate with them or
about them. A multidimensional pleasurable illusion builds up. Thinking has
nothing to do with it. The very opposite is the case. Because of the
logically unjustified affinity, you abandon all fruits of observation and
instead develop a multidimensional set of fixed explanations that will
squelch any opposed ideas. You then have a Reality based entirely upon
continually reiterated Affinities and Communications. The Scientologists
claim that affinity plus communication, plus the reality that results from
these, all adds up to understanding. But it doesn't. It adds up to self
imposed stupidity.

The punch line is that although it is stupid to base your life upon
affinities and communications alone, upon the unreal realities that result
and upon the understanding that one assumes one has as a consequence, your
activities still provide you with learning experiences, which you suddenly
discover, as you wake up and realise that you are still almost as stupid as
when you first took all the hype on board.

Its much simpler than Lazaris made out. Now you can move much faster.
Understanding (a "stupid making" synergy of affinity, communication and
reality), un reliable though it is, leads you into all sorts of learning
quagmires every time you communicate your affinities to anyone, even to
yourself. All the evidence screams "only trust yourself "(and even that's a
bit dodgy, but its all you've got).

The learning quagmire into which unthinking affinity and communication
always leads you is actually a lump of goals, problems and mental masses
which build up as a consequence of inadequately unacknowledged and therefore
never handled failures. The lump may be unraveled, using your own control of
your own consciousness, your own refusal to let anyone other than yourself
take responsibility for your life and your own self accumulated knowingness
that will slowly build up as a consequence.

"God / Goddess / All That Is" has been described in other terms, one set
being Omnipotence, Omnipresence and Omniscience.

Compare these alternative labels. Then compare them with Will, Being and
Knowing. You then have that which we are all trying to achieve. Being
actually comes first (assuming that we can manage even that) . Will comes
next (unless we decide to hand it over to Lazaris or Scientology). Any
knowingness resulting from that sort of abandonment of personal
responsibility is going to be like trying to make a silk purse out of a sows
ear.

Everything Lazaris said had a ring of truth, but also a smell about it. The
best way to resolve any goal, problem, mass that may have built up around
the subject of Lazaris is to separate the wood from the trees, to separate
the truth of what he said from the bullshit.

I did it with Seventh Day Adventist fundamentalism, with Communism, with
Scientology and with God knows how many other deviant influences. Only from
all combined, aligned and refined has real truth eventually worked its way
to the surface. Now its gradually becoming my greatest strength.

The worst thing that could result from your experiences with Lazaris would
be for you to sink into a quagmire of recrimination, either against yourself
or against Lazaris. Try to quantify the value you got out of Lazaris and
offset the hype against that. The benefit will far exceed the negative and
you will then be ready and able to move on to greater things.

Blessed Be

---

You wrote:

quote:

---

Yes, this is pretty frustrating; seems that defending the legitimacy of "Lazaris" is the only concern of true believers.

Spirituality is an unknown reality. A solitary, unguided, maybe even unprotected journey is scary compared to having story, structure, technique, love and protection as promised to "Mapmakers" by "Lazaris." I think this is the crux of the intense denial. It's understandable. The sincere spiritual seeker finds security, with "Lazaris" in an arena where there appears to be none. Bottom line is that the very idea of life without "Lazaris" and his teachings permeating one's life, frightens people to the core. It requires a great deal of mental, emotional and spiritual house cleaning. there is a temporary void to be reckoned with, and a lot of soul searching minus the stacks of tapes.

I think its hard for many true believers to imagine that trust in the love and goodness of the universe is very much more palpable without L. At least that is my experience.

---

I like your succinct rebuttal to Lazaris defenders in general. It does boil it down.

Your first sentence did provide a clue for me about what is going on here. The question of whether Lazaris is a separate entity is different from whether his teachings are legitimate. I think I have been trying to support the former by arguing the latter. I see now that that is a fruitless argument. Being is not something that can be discerned intellectually. If you decided President Bush's personality is an act (after all, how could a president be that stupid!), no argument could be presented that it isn't. So I will leave that position behind, Lazaris may indeed be an act (albeit an impressive one by a former insurance salesman with no background in any of the subjects he discusses).

You seem to make the same mistake however in the opposite direction by presupposing, if Lazaris is an act, the teachings are worthless. Do you really mean to say we don't create our own reality? Do you really mean to say that, oh where to begin, love, maybe is not what it's cracked up to be? I don't think you do. In fact I don't think there is a core teaching you wouldn't agree with, yet now since Lazaris is an act, you must ascribe those teachings to other sources. That's okay. You may not think his teachings are unique (as if any teaching could be) but there was something about them that captured your imagination or else you wouldn't have listened. He certainly has given more depth and insight to the emotions than any teaching I ever came across. Why give that up because you don't believe in Lazaris personally?

You say that we must be frightened to the core to cling to Lazaris so. It's fine if you want to think of yourself as brave. But why can't we all be brave in our spiritual search, wherever it leads? Why must you ascribe cowardice to those who find value in the Lazaris' teachings? Please tell me, what is cowardly about Lazaris' teachings?

I understand that this is a site that does not promote Lazaris. I was attracted to it because people were talking about Lazaris and I am interested in that subject. But I am also interested in spirituality in general and I believe other people on this site are as well, though for different reasons. So whether we believe in Lazaris or not, we do believe in the value of spirituality, the search for answers to life's unanswerables, whither, why, whence? We all need support on that search, no one does it alone. There are no exclusive answers and nor are any excluded from answering, value is where you find it. Spirituality is not out there somewhere, being doled out by God, Lazaris, or Jerry Falwell. It's in these words I'm writing now and in the words you have already written. What I'm trying to say is, we have common ground. I hope you agree.

Nice post.

I applaud those that take the step to try to understand. So many don't seem to take that step. Based on my experience, I do find it difficult to dismiss any source of insight. I acknowledge this weakness in myself, and am happy that others have found a way which is more straightforward. From them, I hope to learn and discern.

You and I seem to have many perspectives in common. To be clear, I am not a defender of Lazaris or CS, but I have received value from Lazaris' teachings. I can separate the teachings from the surroundings, as I must do for much of what I deal with.

Please continue, with my thanks,
Chuck

quote:

---

Originally posted by Katie:
Here's an email response to this thread.
Blessed Be

---

I'm saddened that BB won't come out and play. There are many points I find worth considering.

Chuck

I think there's a misunderstanding here. I know you directed your post to Jade, and I don't wish to speak for her. But your post did seem to generalize a bit about us ex-Lazarians.

I don't think that anyone here has ever said that the teachings, in general, are worthless. On the contrary, many of us have mentioned that we do still believe in many, if not most, of the core teachings: reality creation, personal responsibility, etc.

There are some "non-core" teaching which I find highly suspect, such as the Sirius and Orion stuff. I also tend to disagree with one of the major tenets in the material, Lazaris' description of ego, both positive and negative. I wrote about it a few months ago, so you can find it with a search.

As for Jach being an insurance salesman with no prior knowledge - he studied Silva Mind Control before Lazaris allegedly came through. That is also documented in various places on this site. Silva Mind Control teaches many of the same things Lazaris teaches, including the Abundance symbol and the practice of counting down into an alpha state.

You wrote:

quote:

---

I understand that this is a site that does not promote Lazaris.

---

Actually, this site does promote Lazaris. It promotes Lazaris when people who believe in Lazaris choose to post here about their beliefs. It also promotes the idea that Jach is a fraud. The balance leans toward the latter, but that could change at any time if more Lazaris believers choose to post. No post will ever be deleted simply because it goes against the beliefs of the founders of this site.

Ted V is correct that the site promotes whatever the posters write about here.

For some reason, that point seems to keep getting missed. Probably because there is so much protest when anyone comes in here trying to tell others what they should and should not do, how to think, heal, grow, etc, and also making judgements about others because they are not viewing things in the same way.

So far the regular posters here have helped this site to be a place where respect is supported. That does not mean that it is always respectful, but when someone is disrespectful, that is usually noticed and addressed. When people ask to not be instructed, lectured, talked down to from a place of spiritual authority and are ignored, that is clear disrespect.

As more people come here, that dynamic is changing. Some seem to welcome instructors and judges here. Opposition to that is taken by some as negative judgements about beliefs.
Some here are able to make that differentiation and some aren't. That's a shame.

I will always do my best to support an adult perspective here, and to hopefully get the point across to all visitors that there is a clear and identifiable difference between disagreement and disrespect, and that rash negative judgements and assertions are nasty, as is the compulsion of some to set themselves up as spiritual experts advisors and teachers.

Really, those behaviors are very unwelcomed BY ME. I am speaking for myself here, as only one voice and one without authority.

None of that has anything to do with beliefs, it has to do with behaviors. Those two words have separate meanings also.

I suppose that those who are on the lookout for/or to be authorities, teachers, and advisors have a difficult time understanding that some of us are not, and maybe that is even a bit of a threatening concept to some. It seems that the same posters who crave authority are the ones who have the hardest time getting it that no on is the boss here.

Maybe if what I just said is repeated enough, it might start to sink in for some of our posters and lurkers.

Possibly it will also sink in that Ted and I are not interested in getting private emails full of those stated unwelcomed behaviors.

There is no point in writing to us privately, as we are part of a group, and not in charge of the group, so even if you succeeded in making your points to us,that would not change anything much on the board here. I can't speak for everyone here, but I can state once again, that Ted and I are not looking for teachers, saviors, or spiritual authorities.

Katie

I wonder why you care about the beliefs of others.

You seem to want to set all us Lazaris doubters straight and get us back on the right path, meaning your path, your perspective. Why is that?

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Your first sentence did provide a clue for me about what is going on here.

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The question of whether Lazaris is a separate entity is different from whether his teachings are legitimate. I think I have been trying to support the former by arguing the latter.

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Lazaris may indeed be an act (albeit an impressive one by a former insurance salesman with no background in any of the subjects he discusses).

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You seem to make the same mistake however in the opposite direction by presupposing, if Lazaris is an act, the teachings are worthless.

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Do you really mean to say we don't create our own reality? Do you really mean to say that, oh where to begin, love, maybe is not what it's cracked up to be? I don't think you do. In fact I don't think there is a core teaching you wouldn't agree with

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yet now since Lazaris is an act, you must ascribe those teachings to other sources. That's okay.

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You may not think his teachings are unique (as if any teaching could be) but there was something about them that captured your imagination or else you wouldn't have listened. He certainly has given more depth and insight to the emotions than any teaching I ever came across. Why give that up because you don't believe in Lazaris personally?

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You say that we must be frightened to the core to cling to Lazaris so. It's fine if you want to think of yourself as brave. But why can't we all be brave in our spiritual search, wherever it leads? Why must you ascribe cowardice to those who find value in the Lazaris' teachings? Please tell me, what is cowardly about Lazaris' teachings?

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But I am also interested in spirituality in general and I believe other people on this site are as well, though for different reasons.

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So whether we believe in Lazaris or not, we do believe in the value of spirituality, the search for answers to life's unanswerables, whither, why, whence? We all need support on that search, no one does it alone.

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There are no exclusive answers and nor are any excluded from answering, value is where you find it. Spirituality is not out there somewhere, being doled out by God, Lazaris, or Jerry Falwell. It's in these words I'm writing now and in the words you have already written. What I'm trying to say is, we have common ground. I hope you agree.

---

Thank you for sharing your spirituality with us, but it actually feels a whole lot more like a judgemental lecture from someone who has a need for for everyone to believe as he does. Something about that does not strike me as either spiritually enlightened or brave.

I think that if you took the time to read what Jade has written here you would find a very deep, spiritual, and wise woman who is really in no need of help from anyone, most notably not from an anonymous poster on a message board.

Do you think you might be willing to consider how offensive your lecture is to those of us who have actually thought quite a bit about this Lazaris issue, and have decided to reject the concept that the teachings of a demonstrated fraud could have any value? So what if he might have lifted a few truisms. I prefer my food to be served on a clean plate. Maybe you don't mind injesting a bit of garbage along with your food, but some of us do. Most people stop eating when they find a piece of rotting food mixed in and notice that the chef has filthy hands. Call us picky, but there you have it.

Katie

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You seem to make the same mistake however in the opposite direction by presupposing, if Lazaris is an act, the teachings are worthless. Do you really mean to say we don't create our own reality? Do you really mean to say that, oh where to begin, love, maybe is not what it's cracked up to be?

---

I already had those "core" beliefs when I first encountered "Lazaris." That is why I was attracted because initially the early L material fit with my beliefs.

My first questioning thoughts about L came after an incident in the forum. I left after a couple of weeks, but felt very confused by the lack of congruity between the material and oppressive forum dynamic for several years.

I changed my mind about L early this year after started reading and posting here. But last year I was thinking about doing some writing, and I realized that I had a hard time separating out my own thoughts from all the "Lazaris" ideas, terminology and beliefs I had mentally soaked up for many years. Wanting to speak my own voice, I realized that at some point I would have to get clear with myself on what part of my thinking was really my own.

My concern was not the core beliefs but the mountainous pile of information that had been added to them. I won't say that all my years with L were fruitless, because my intent was to grow. But I certainly took on a ton of useless and even detrimental baggage which I am still in the process of dumping.

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You say that we must be frightened to the core to cling to Lazaris so. It's fine if you want to think of yourself as brave. But why can't we all be brave in our spiritual search, wherever it leads? Why must you
ascribe cowardice to those who find value in the Lazaris' teachings? Please tell me, what is cowardly about Lazaris' teachings?

---

Cutting loose an ideology that thoroughly permeates one's being is frightening.
Didn't say brave, cowardly or cling. When I first let go of L's teaching, it was scary. Jumped ship, had to float my own boat. And damn if it doesn't float better lighter.

First I had to be willing to look at the whole picture, instead of compartmentalizing -- well Peny and the Gang and C:S are oppressive and secretive, but they aren't the material. Yeah, Jach was Peny's husband and did promote more than one MLM scheme. So let's separate Jach from the material. And yes sometimes "Lazaris" has lifted material, is inconsistent in what he says and blindy devoted to the megalomaniac ex-wife of the guy who channels him. So let's just separate off even "Lazaris" from the material, 'cause it's just so great. Would a believer approach any other highly significant area of life this way?

As spoken by the Culinary Queen Katie:

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I prefer my food to be served on a clean plate.

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We all need support on that search, no one does it alone.

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What I'm trying to say is, we have
common ground. I hope you agree.

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So why are you posting anonymously?

Jade

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I do enjoy our chances to exchange as I appreciate your perspectives. Thank you for your initiatives.

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You are most welcomed, and thank you for your participation.

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I am fortunate in that I was "rejected" in having this exposure. CS did me a great favor in doing so.

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Yes, indeed you may be fortunate, although information is power, and Con:Sin certainly plays the disempowerment game. I'm sorry you got that end of their crappy voodoo stick. I'm not sure which end is the worst one.

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Based on the postings on this site, there is certainly sufficient documentation that many were hurt, and the numbers posting here seem to be more than those helped. Given the nature of this site, I would be surprised to see many posting who took the side of Lazaris.

---

I don't see why those who "side with Lazaris" don't participate here. Many have come and gone, they don't seem to want to respond to questions, only dump their guilt and judgements and leave. I'm sure Lazaris is most proud of them all. The biggest mystery is why the Gang doesn't come here to attempt to snuff out any signs of disrespect as they do in the Forum. There it is their mission. Here, they are silent. I suspect that has more to do with the nature of bullies than it does any respect for Lazaris.

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Based on what has been posted here, there is enough of a suggestion that more were hurt. It is possible that some were not aware of any hurt, so I question whether claims that they were hurt are valid.

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Being lied to, misled, and having a false authority imposed through the use of deception and manipulation is abuse in my book.

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I am not debating the tactics nor the exposure the possibility of hurt based on the tactics. The question in my mind is where to draw the line of trying to be responsible for the thoughts and feelings of another. Claiming that another was hurt even though they are unaware crosses this line for me, particularly in the dimension of spirit.

---

Interesting point. It does warrant thought.
I think the answer is that it isn't anyone's responsibility to take on the hurt of another, it's quite enough to respond to our own, and that which has been directly reported here. It isn't a poll, or a quest to prove that everyone who ever came into contact with Lazaris has been hurt. We have enough to address within our own sphere of experience to keep us quite engaged.

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In my mind, there is no possible response which will acceptably answer the challenge above. I think that the best that can be done is to offer different perspectives and to suggest that those who feel abused try the perspective on to see if it helps. As I see it, this is something that is a case by case basis, not a "one size fits all." Given the nature of this site, working through each case in public just won't work in my opinion.

---

Again, no one here is asking for help. We are expressing our perspective, reporting on our experience and reacting to them. I haven't noticed any of us ex-Lazaris followers demanding that everyone agree with us or share our perspective. That seems to be the mission of the faithful.

I think there is a reaction from some who read this site from some to try to fix or help. I don't hear anyone asking for that.
I realize that often the impulse comes from a place of compassion,but in my opinion it is enormously misplaced. Again, no one here to my knowledge has asked for any help or expressed a need or desire to be fixed by anyone else. Even Lazaris would not support any attempts to fix anyone.

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For myself, this represents the flip side of going too far in being responsible for another, that of not going far enough. Since this is one of my "life issues", I find hanging around here to have value, as I have not yet struck a balance which works for me.

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I'm not clear about what you are referring to here. What is your "life issue"? Whatever, I'm glad that hanging out here has value for you. I believe that we all gain value from each other when we share and discuss without feeling the need to change anyone else.

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I see in this discussion multiple sub-issues which are interrelated. Given the interrelationship of the sub-issues, it is easy to go from one to another. In my experience with this site, I have found it difficult to follow the discussion at times.

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Tell me about it!! Yes, it does require a certain amount of attention to detail to follow along, but if there is value, then the attention is worth the effort. I'm sure it must be quite a chore to be a recent visitor trying to catch up. Please don't feel reluctant to ask questions.

Regarding my comment that it seems those of us who have left the fold understand the materials better than those who are defenders you said:

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This may be true, but I cannot see any merits to the realization beyond the observation that you have gotten whatever value you can from the material.

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No, it means that we understand the teachings and that many (most, all) true believers who have come here argue for Lazaris in complete contradiction to the teachings. It's like someone defending Hitler for being a wimpy soft hearted do-gooder. It doesn't make any sense.

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I agree with others who have posted that there is a danger in relying on one outside source for our spiritual development.

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When I realized what I had done or allowed, I started looking around. It was at this time I happened upon the teachings of Lazaris.

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To me your experience reinforces my belief that outside sources only serve to divert us.
Why jump from one to another? My very successful choice has been to reject all outside influences, and to rely upon my own inner resources. I'm not demanding this of anyone, but simply reporting on the enormous success I have personally had with this practice.

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I am not defending the teachings, simply acknowledging that I got value.

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Someone wrote to me today asking if I thought there would be value in starting a thread in which we ask people to share their successes from the Lazaris material. My response is of course, we have been asking for that from the beginning. Most of us defectors have had to admit that the materials did not in any way live up to their promise, and that we were tired of shaming and blaming ourselves for that. At some point some of us just decided that it might not be our problem, it just might be the material itself. Where are the stellar successes we were promised over and over again? When you say you got value, did you get the value that was promised? From my perspective it ain't a fair value to charge for a Jaguar and present a skateboard.

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As I have stated elsewhere, there is nothing in the teachings that I have exposed myself to that I have not been able to find a preceeding source of something similar - although my exposure to the full set of teachings is much more limited than many who post here.

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One thing in the teachings is the promise of successes beyond our wildest imagination. In this way, the Lazaris materials set themselves apart from others. "Lazaris" provides us with a mix of the wisdom of many spiritual and psychological schools, but with the added promise of techniques to take us far and beyond the "consensus" understanding of success. Where is this success? Even Peny, for all her wealth and status could not succeed at providing herself enough motivation to stay alive beyond her middle years, as she stated was her desire and intention. At no time did Peny ever indicate that she saw an early death as anything but a failure to achieve her human potential. If the greatest of all magicians failed what does that say about all the promises?

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If you can try the perspective I've offered above, I suggest that your suggestion is one that will not be fulfilled as it represents a paradox in its statement. Once the materials have been mastered, it is time to move on. If they are mastered, those that understand them will move on and the discussion will not be of interest. I make this statement based on the experiences that have been reported by others including yourself, not based on my own, so I may be out of bounds here. I admit to having not mastered the material, because I haven't tried and don't find trying a necessary step in what I am trying to do.

---

Well, then what are you defending, and on what basis? I don't see any paradox here whatsoever. Either the teachings of Lazaris are being defended, or what? I can't figure that out.

Thanks for writing.

Katie

Thanks to all for responding to my post. Some thoughts and comments here for all of you.

T. wrote:

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I don't think that anyone here has ever said that the teachings, in general, are worthless. On the contrary, many of us have mentioned that we do still believe in many, if not most, of the core teachings: reality creation, personal responsibility, etc.

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My comment was a broad generalization to a quote from Jade. Both you and Jade noted that all the teachings have not been discarded. I stand corrected.

T. wrote:

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There are some "non-core" teaching which I find highly suspect, such as the Sirius and Orion stuff. I also tend to disagree with one of the major tenets in the material, Lazaris' description of ego, both positive and negative. I wrote about it a few months ago, so you can find it with a search.

---

I understand the non-core stuff could be a problem. Sirius, Lemuria, King Arthur, who knows? I do find Lemuria to be inspiring and I went to an Arthur seminar and was happy I did. I did come to realize that Lazaris could spin an infinite number of stories an infinite number of ways to make the same point so whatever people find valuable, fine, whatever people don't, fine. I will look for what you wrote about positive/negative ego and if I want to comment, I will let you know.

T. wrote:

quote:

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As for Jach being an insurance salesman with no prior knowledge - he studied Silva Mind Control before Lazaris allegedly came through. That is also documented in various places on this site. Silva Mind Control teaches many of the same things Lazaris teaches, including the Abundance symbol and the practice of counting down into an alpha state.

---

Again, I realize it's pointless to argue whether he is a separate entity or not. I confess to saying that and then adding my jab at the end, wanting the last word on it, sorry. Yes, I do believe he is a separate entity. I understand you and others do not. Both positions can be supported but no proof will ever be forthcoming either way. We will have to disagree and leave it at that.

T. wrote:

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Actually, this site does promote Lazaris. It promotes Lazaris when people who believe in Lazaris choose to post here about their beliefs. It also promotes the idea that Jach is a fraud. The balance leans toward the latter, but that could change at any time if more Lazaris believers choose to post. No post will ever be deleted simply because it goes against the beliefs of the founders of this site.

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Thanks to you and Katie for this site. I appreciate the effort that has gone into it and the willingness to let others have their say.

Katie wrote:

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I wonder why you care about the beliefs of others.

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K. wrote:

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You seem to want to set all us Lazaris doubters straight and get us back on the right path, meaning your path, your perspective. Why is that?

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K. wrote:

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The question of whether Lazaris is a separate entity is different from whether his teachings are legitimate. I think I have been trying to support the former by arguing the latter.

Why?

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K. wrote:

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You seem to make the same mistake however in the opposite direction by presupposing, if Lazaris is an act, the teachings are worthless.

Jade seems to make a mistake by whose reckoning? Can you imagine that that comment sounds a bit arrogant?

---

K. wrote:

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Are you trying to convince Jade of something, or yourself? Besides the fact that Jade has offered her reasons for separating from the Lazaris materials (much more complex and thoughtful than those you relegate to her) what business is it of yours to tell her what she thinks, why, and then question her about it?

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K. wrote:

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Where did Jade mention that there was anything cowardly about the Lazaris teachings? How kind of you to allow her to think of herself as brave, although, I don't actually recall her referring to herself as such.

---

Jade wrote, "Bottom line is that the very idea of life without "Lazaris" and his teachings permeating one's life, frightens people to the core." I interpreted as people are frightened to leave Lazaris. You are correct, I misspoke in saying that implies something cowardly about the teachings. It implies something cowardly about the people and their relationship to the teachings. Thank you for correcting me.

K. wrote:

quote:

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But I am also interested in spirituality in general and I believe other people on this site are as well, though for different reasons.

Please do, tell each of us our reasons!

---

K. wrote:

quote:

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So whether we believe in Lazaris or not, we do believe in the value of spirituality, the search for answers to life's unanswerables, whither, why, whence? We all need support on that search, no one does it alone.

Is that a fact? I suppose you haven't read the many posts here in which some of us speak to the issue of needing support in our spiritual quest.

---

I was responding to Jade saying, "Spirituality is an unknown reality. A solitary, unguided, maybe even unprotected journey… ."

K. wrote:

quote:

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No exclusive answers... what does that mean?

---

It means whatever source you go to, it will not have all the answers.

K. wrote:

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Thank you for sharing your spirituality with us, but it actually feels a whole lot more like a judgemental lecture from someone who has a need for for everyone to believe as he does. Something about that does not strike me as either spiritually enlightened or brave.

---

Believe what you want. Interesting that you consider me to be judgmental in the same breath as you are not only judging but condemning me.

K. wrote:

quote:

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I think that if you took the time to read what Jade has written here you would find a very deep, spiritual, and wise woman who is really in no need of help from anyone, most notably not from an anonymous poster on a message board.

Do you think you might be willing to consider how offensive your lecture is to those of us who have actually thought quite a bit about this Lazaris issue, and have decided to reject the concept that the teachings of a demonstrated fraud could have any value?

---

You took much more offense than Jade whom I was addressing. Why is that? I have also thought about the Lazaris issue and I do find value there. You do not seem to be able to separate the message from the messenger which I acknowledged as two separate issues. I will discuss either one with you but don't use one to prove the other, they are separate issues.

K. wrote:

quote:

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So what if he might have lifted a few truisms. I prefer my food to be served on a clean plate. Maybe you don't mind injesting a bit of garbage along with your food, but some of us do. Most people stop eating when they find a piece of rotting food mixed in and notice that the chef has filthy hands. Call us picky, but there you have it.

---

A few truisms…, interesting take. We can discuss further but if all L's teachings boil down to a few truisms, there's probably not much to say. One question. Why did you hang around so long if that's all you were getting?

Jade, you had a lot to say and I liked all of it. Sorry if I hadn't gone through all your previous posts and appreciate your patience in any rehash for my benefit.

You wrote:

quote:

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So why are you posting anonymously?

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Do you want my email?

Thanks to all for your responses!
TedC

Thank you for taking the time to read through the posts written to you and respond thoughtfully, that is most appreciated.

In reading your responses to my questions I detect a certain amount of hostility. I'm sure that will only escalate if I give you a blow by blow response to your questions and comments.

Let me say this Ted, I find your manner to be rather condescending, and I believe I did the work to illustrate that.

You respond by saying that you are only sharing. Sharing and imposing are two different things.

When I asked if you found it difficult to understand why anyone would read your words as arrogant, you responded "Maybe", but that was not your intention. There really is no "maybe" about it, and your intentions have nothing to do with whether or not they were. I'm sure you are capable of coming to a definitive conclusion about that. There are a lot of dead people who were mortally wounded by people who didn't intend to kill them. It doesn't make them less dead.

You ask why I stuck around the Lazaris materials so long. Well, I've more than answered that question here to the extent that I understand it myself. Does the length of time someone believes in a lie make it more true as time passes? I must admit, that I find the question to be insulting and irrelevant to anything. It just feels like a swipe. If I missed a bigger point you were making in asking it, I'm more than willing to be enlightened.

As to my making judgements of you, I responded to what you said and how you said it. We can go back and forth forever about the shades of meaning of the word judgement. There is a difference though between addressing what has clearly been written and telling others what and why they think, making subtle allegations, and neglecting to give due consideration to the intention behind our words.

I get the feeling that while you are more than happy to "share" your thoughts with others, you aren't quite as happy to hear what others think about them.

I sincerely wish that you would give some serious attention to understanding your own motives and desires for participating here.

It is one thing to state that you are just here to share and enjoy a pleasant exchange of thoughts, but it's another to write posts that very much sound like lectures coming from a place of superior wisdom.

If you are here to fix people, or to change minds to suit your perspective, I wish that at least you would be honest about that with us and yourself. If you are not, then maybe you could be more careful to not use phraseology that sounds very much as though you are.

I'm not a mind reader, I can only respond to what people say. You know much better than I do why you are posting here.

If you only want to share, then maybe just tell us what you think and why.

Katie

Glad you could relate to my last post to you.

quote:

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When I realized what I had done or allowed, I started looking around. It was at this time I happened upon the teachings of Lazaris.

---

I wasn't involved with a spiritually focused group before my involvement with L. I really liked what I read in a few books like Jane Robert's Seth Material and Venice Bloodworth's "The Key to Yourself." At the time that I encountered L, I was wishing for a spiritual connection in my physical reality.

Both authors express a lot about freedom, which had/has great appeal to me. I originally thought that "Lazaris" had similar ideas. In my experience, the words are there, but the actual effect is to reduce one sense of freedom. A common thread among those of us who split off from L is that we feel much freer to be ourselves (expressed at length in Jan., Feb., and Mar. posts).

I first posted in late Jan./early Feb. anonymously as "Lorca" because I felt vulnerable and had some fears about C:S. After emailing C:S that I preferred not to continue selling my work through them, I felt that I didn't need to be concerned, and started posting under my own name. At that point I believe only Katie and Ted used open identities. Much of the others' anonymous posting was motivated by an element of fear too.

I don't think feeling fearful about something means that a person is cowardly. Or that all anonymous posters are fearful. But on this board that was the case, though most have been going by their real names for a while now.

I'm bringing up this point because it's a simple example of feeling the freedom to be yourself. Thanks for the email offer. To me, this is more about you expressing who you are, than me knowing your real name. But, I'm fine with continuing to post to you as things stand.

One more thing, when I started posting as Jade, my style changed because I was more aware of representing myself.

Jade

This issue of cowardice is an interesting one. There is a lot to be fearful about concerning C:S. Actually, there's not much to fear if one does not believe in their spin. But when one is in the J&L room and believes, as we've been led to believe, that Peny is a shining light, closer to Lazaris than anyone, and that her opinion of one's state of evolution is to be taken very seriously, there is indeed much to fear.

How much of the manipulation that takes place in the J&L room is based on fear and how much on people internalizing the shame that the Gang heaps on? They are not the same thing. Fear prevents someone from responding when they know that something is wrong. Shame prevents us from even knowing that something is wrong, except for what is wrong with ourselves.

There were times when I was in the Forum that I neglected to speak up because I thought I must not be understanding the situation - I just wasn't "getting it". That's shame. There were other times that I refused to take a stand when I knew something was wrong. That's fear. My lack of response was indicative of cowardice.

Is it judgmental to suggest that someone may be acting from cowardice? Maybe, maybe not. All of us have varying thresholds of fear. Manipulators focus on the particular fears of each of their victims. If someone acts, or refuses to act, out of fear, are they necessarily acting as a coward? Perhaps, but not necessarily more cowardly than the average person.

If I think a person's action is cowardly, but I don't hold myself above them because of it - maybe because I have acted just as cowardly myself - am I judging or discerning? I think a fundamental aspect of judgment is the better-than that often goes with it. Another aspect is forming an opinion with insufficient facts. Since we can't know why someone acts as they do, we have no basis to form that sort of opinion. But I can say that my own actions/in-actions were cowardly at times. Not in the long-run though.

My brief insincere apology before I left was out of fear of being cut off from L. But it felt cowardly because I didn't mean it, certainly wasn't being myself. I just wanted out of there, without burning any bridges with C:S and L. I felt very confused about what happened, tried to figure it all out (for years), certainly couldn't think straight under attack from people who supposedly were full of lava and peas. I only visited the forum for less than two weeks, but it was two weeks of hell. All those people including P and J couldn't have gotten so mad over nothing right!! Wrong indeed.

Love,
Jade

As a Silva Mind Control graduate (gad it was 30 years ago) I can see the following similarities to the Lazaris material:

1. You learn how to go to the subconscious to do programming.
2. The subconscious can be computer room, library etc.
3. In the subconscious you have male and female counselor.
4. You work at visualizing what you want while in alpha state.

Silva Mind control believes that you retain information, are more psychic etc when your brain waves are in the range of 6-13 which is called alpha. Theta I believe is below that and borders on sleep. I thought it was a super course and it allowed me to ace graduate school because of all the exercises they gave you to memorize. I still use some of the techniques.

Now, here is what it wasn't.

1. It was not a spiritual course. There was no reference to the Goddess or higher self.
2. No discussion of shadow, negative ego or stuff like that.
3. NO discussion of emotional processing.
4. I do not recall seeing the abundance symbol.

Obviously in 30 years it could have changed. I personally believe that there is something to Lazaris and that Silva Mind Control does not even begin to touch the depth of the Lazaris material, regardless of where it came from.

I think with every religion or spiritual path, there comes a point where you have to cross some threshold of belief. What is true in most cases is that most religious groups have the capacity to have a mob mentality or cult like behavior with power being projected on some leader. What I think is important though is not to give power away in the process.

I am in the minority here as I do believe that Lazaris is separate entity. Hopefully that is fine as you all seem to have room for some of us here who believe but continue to think and ponder. As awful as I'm sure CS must find this site, it has probably made a lot of people scratch their heads and re-examine who they are giving their power to and whether that is in their best interest.

You graduated the Silva method at about the same time as Jach and Peny.

Someone we know recently attended a mini- evening and said they taught the Abundance symbol there...I know very little about the Silva method personally but like what I have read and considered taking the course myself.

I don't have a problem with Jach/Lazaris using the techniques Jach learned to help us get into the alpha state...the questioning comes because he "never" credited the Silva course he graduated from not long before Lazaris came through. There's nothing wrong with Jach taking the course but it's odd that he never acknowledged it. Why not if there's nothing wrong with it??? Know what I mean? Was he hiding it? How come it wasn't included in the introductions of the books? Was it avoidance or omittance?? Either way it's healthy fertilizer for doubt.

Marilyn

I mentioned Jach's involvement with Silva Mind Control to dispel the myth propagated by C:S that Jach was a meta-physical novice prior to Lazaris' entry. This myth has served to create doubt that Jach could have invented the whole phenomenom.

I don't contend that Silva Mind Control is Jach's only source. As we've mentioned in here before, Peny has admitted to studying Paramahansa Yogananda's material (with apparently the same depth of understanding that she had in the Lazaris material). She also has studied Madame Blavatsky, one of the originator's of the modern concept of channeling. She was exposed as a fraud. More details about all of this are on this site.

Much of the Lazaris material may be lifted from Karl Jung and Eric Byrne, who wrote several popular books in the 1970's about transactional analysis.

I do credit Jach with doing more research than many of the alleged channelers. The point is, he is not sume dumb hick with no physical access to all this information.

Interesting to read your responses. I had no idea that Jach proclaimed no previous metaphysical experience prior to Lazaris. So Marilyn, he could have even been in my group and I wouldn't have known it? Oh my. How did you find out he did do Silva?

And now Silva Mind control uses the abundance symbol? Wonder if they got it from CS. All this stuff just recycles and recycles???

And Ted, you are correct that Jach is no dummy. Regardless of what one thinks of CS, Jach has proven himself to be smart, articulate, and a shrewd good businessman.

Best
Bluebird

quote:

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I am in the minority here as I do believe that Lazaris is separate entity.

---

I believe some posters who have quit "Lazaris" do think he is separate (not just a Jach act) others don't, but all have concluded that he isn't what he claims to be.

I lean towards thinking it's a performance. The thought of an entity, or even alternate personality of Jach's is more disturbing to me that an act, considering that I think the hidden agenda of the "Lazaris" material is to create dependency and self doubt.

LOL..here we are back on the topic of whether or not Jach is faking it. I suppose this question will always remain at the top of our lists.

For me it isn't hard to imagine Jach pulling this one off. I've been to enough seminars to notice that a lot of rambling goes on so I don't agree that it's all so incredibly brilliant. I think it's smoke and mirrors.

Marilyn wrote a beautiful post on another thread in which she describes many awesome and beautiful experiences which were sparked by the Lazaris materials, yet she is fully able to now separate them and herself from the Lazaris materials.

I've written about this here before, but maybe it bears repeating for those who haven't read back that far.

Before our Lazaris years Ted and I were involved in quite a few experiments with consciousness. We were collecting crystals,
reading all the books on chakras, channels,
sound and vibrational healing, you name it.

Out of our curiousity, and I believe the desire of some to forge new careers for themselves, we began to develop techniques which created altered or "out of body" experiences. They were named "Transformational Journies" by the person who originally began the experiments.

What we learned is that it is possible to put an individual or group of people into a trance state in which the senses are heightened, and seemingly able to clearly hone in on significant life issues. We had people attending these "journeys" who never heard of metaphysics, yet everyone who ever participated found the imageries needed to provide for a major healing experience. What happened during those sessions was no joke, they were extremely powerful and emotional for everyone who participated. For some who were originally doubters, they were mind shattering.

We stopped doing those techniques for a number of reasons, but for me the prime one was that people were starting to attribute the power of them to me and others, we were implored by some to take the show on the road so to speak, and in all good conscience, I was not in any way willing to be responsible for what was happening during those sessions. I could clearly see that most people could not just allow that the experiences were there own, of their own effort, but that many needed someone to pin that experience on.

The fact is that even to this day, I don't exactly know why the techniques worked. I have my theories, but I'm not willing to hang my hat on those, and I'm certainly not willing to charge money, or be responsible for the experiences of others.

I believe that Jach and the Gang had similar experiences while working with the Silva Mind Control methods, and they did decide to take the show on the road. I believe that just like us, they found that they were on to something, and exploited it, creating the side show bit by bit as they went along.

Our early experiments were very similar to the Lazaris "meditations", although in ours we did not provide the images, we simply allowed for the participants to provide their own. One amazing result was that most of the time, all participants could clearly join in the images provided by another. In our sessions we intereacted verbally, each person sharing what they were experiencing, and without fail, one person's imagery would capture the group, and call us all into it.
Usually the person who sparked the image was in for one serious big whallop of insight, and along the way, so were the other participants. Sometimes we would move from the images of one person into those of others, sometimes we would stay with just one
but regardless, everyone participating would later report a huge shift of understanding and emotion.

During those sessions we were often visited by the "unseen". Participants were finding spirit guides, healing energies, friends, it was really profound.

Anyway, since I've had these experiences pre-Lazaris, and since I've personally facilitated a room full of people having incredible, intense insights and communications, I'm not as impressed with the Lazaris experience as some are.

As to the organization of the material, I don't find it that hard to understand how Jach can do that. Not after trying to keep my eyes opened through many of the long Lazaris seminars in which the wise entity repeats themselves 100 times over.

I'm a great note taker, I learned in school how to organize material into notes, highlighting the key topics. In the early seminars I used to come home with pages of notes. As time went by, my pages of notes got shorter and shorter. At the last evening I attended I couldn't even fill a page, and I was just about ready to jump out of my seat and yell at Lazaris to spit something out. It was a 2 and a half hour exercise in trying to control my boredom.

I think Jach writes up an outline prior to each seminar, and then free wheels it through with a lot of supportive dialogue, some interesting, some repetitive, and some just a pile of hogwash.

I'm sure you've all noticed how many personal anecdotes he provides, about the "channel", Peny, Michaell, etc. Besides filling time, they are always geared toward training us in the greatness and wisdom of Peny and Michaell, and often little deprecations about Jach.

As we have also learned, he uses stories about others to punish, insult, degrade, humiliate, manipulate and control. We may not recognize the significance of these little anecdotes, but we've had many reports from those who were the subject of them as to what the function of those little ditties really is.

As we've discussed at length here, Jach clearly has drawn on an established body of information, research, and philosophy to provide the foundation of the materials. Maybe some of the more "unique" concepts came from discussions over the dinner table under the influence of those funny cigarettes Lazaris told us they all used to smoke. Who knows?

I know that I would not have a problem doing what Jach does, maybe you can tell by my long posts here, I have no problem finding lots of words to fill up space.

All I can say, is that if someone told me that all I had to do to make a quarter of a million dollars was to sit in a hotel meeting room and say a lot of stuff that made people feel good, I'd have no problem coming up with material. I sure as hell would have a problem taking people's money under fals pretenses and making myself and my closest friends really really important and powerful over others because I happen to have the gift of gab.

As to the "realness" of Lazaris...well, who knows, maybe Jach has teamed up with some scoundrel from beyond who helps him along the way, or maybe even he believes that he has.

Maybe that was happening too, when we did our Transformation Journeys. I know we could have easily claimed that it was, and we could have just as easily given a name to that energy we all felt.

Where I am right now about all this is that I feel we should all be responsible for our own entities and leave the minds, hearts, souls, and checkbooks of others out of it.

Whatever Jach has found, he uses it to control and manipulate others. So screw him.
I hope he goes to jail for it some day.

quote:

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I know that I would not have a problem doing what Jach does, maybe you can tell by my long posts here, I have no problem finding lots of words to fill up space.

---

IMO if Jach were posting here, his posts would be even longer than yours. Last night I took a look at the C:S home web page which has changed quite a bit since I last visited. My goodness, does Jach go on and on and on(and in yellow print whcih is hard on the eyes). Reminds me of those very long emails he used to send out too regularly to forum members. So you have an excellent point about some people's,ability, specifically Jach's, to always have more than enough to say.

Your story about "Transformational Journeys" illustrates that given the right circumstances, groups will have metaphysical experiences. Like you, Ted and many others here, I had them before, during and after L -- actually most intensely during the period before. I'm certain that during the years I worked with the L material, I'd have been having those experiences anyway. So I can't even give it much credit for the experiences that occurred during that time.

[quote]What we learned is that it is possible to put an individual or group of people into a trance state in which the senses are heightened, and seemingly able to clearly hone in on significant life issues. We had people attending these "journeys" who never heard of metaphysics, yet everyone who ever participated found the imageries needed to provide for a major healing experience. What happened during those sessions was no joke, they were extremely powerful and emotional for everyone who participated. For some who were originally doubters, they were mind shattering.[quote]

I had a wild metaphysical experience at my younger daughter's twelfth birthday slumber party. At twilight, the girls decided to play a spooky game. They lit candles in the bathroom, then went inside in separate pairs. While looking into the candle lit mirror, each pair chanted "Bloody Mary, Bloody Mary" as part of a refrain. I suddenly realised that I had eight young girls who had put themselves into a group alterred state of consciousness, on my hands. A kind of spontaneous rite of passage ritual. They drew pictures of hermaphrodites, danced, had powerful, emotional insights, one wrote a poem called "The Zone" which I still have. The trance-like state went on for several hours. Two of the girls didn't come from metaphysically oriented families -- less open to this kind of experience. Their consciousness was alterred too, but both were very frightened, one intently pacing in a circle, the other in terrified to tears, so I put a lot of my energy into calming them and trying to get them grounded.

It was quite a memorable night, that started out with what was supposed to be a spooky game. My point being to give another example that is doesn't take a "Lazaris" for a group of people to have powerful metaphysical experiences.

Love,
Jade

quote:

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Like you, Ted and many others here, I had them before, during and after L -- actually most intensely during the period before. I'm certain that during the years I worked with the L material, I'd have been having those experiences anyway. So I can't even give it much credit for the experiences that occurred during that time.

---

Doesn't it sometimes make you wonder where you would be today if you had just continued along your own path instead of having gotten diverted onto the Con:Sin Highway to Shame?

Which, of course, is not to suggest in any way that there is a thing wrong with where you are right now, but I know that Ted and I often wonder where our experiments would have led us.

By allowing for all possibilities, I have to allow for the one that says that Con:Sin held us back from achieving our potential during those years, just as much as I might say that it was an interesting experience that I learned from.

I think that any time anyone superimposes themselves over the soul of another, they are doing a grave disservice. Of course, as I write this, I am making sure to remember that I am the master of my own soul, and that the Divine and I did not forget each other while I was rambling down the expensive crystal laden path that Jach built.

The story you tell of your daughter and girlfriends trancing out is really interesting. I think teen-agers do a lot of experimenting with consciousness without even realizing what they are doing. My friends and I used to play with the Oujia board for hours on end.

And hell, we all tranced out to music, big time back in those days, when we would play the same tunes over and over again until we ran holes into the records and drove our parents completely bonkers.

I think people like to trance out, and do it all the time without realizing. I saw a show yesterday about people who are addicted to hot peppers. The show ended with a group of people eating the hottest peppers they could find, just for the altered consciousness buzz they got.

I guess trancing out is fun enough, what's scary is how suggestible we are when we are under.

Given the kinds of experiences that have been shared here, I think it's probably best to take our trances very seriously.

Katie

quote:

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Originally posted by Countryside:
Ted C,

Nice post...

...Please continue, with my thanks,
Chuck

---

Sorry for not acknowledging you in my first reply. Thanks for the support, it's very much appreciated!

I appreciate your response and want to write something tonight although I don't have that much time. If I don't say everything I want to, I will post again tomorrow.

You wrote:

quote:

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In reading your responses to my questions I detect a certain amount of hostility. I'm sure that will only escalate if I give you a blow by blow response to your questions and comments.

---

I hope we can communicate without hostility, I certainly respect you and hope for the same. None of what I write is meant to be taken personally. I enjoy our discussions and hold no animosities. If you do not feel this from me, I'm not sure what I can say. Believe me, all is offered in the spirit of sharing of thoughts and feelings and coming to a mutual understanding.

You wrote:

quote:

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When I asked if you found it difficult to understand why anyone would read your words as arrogant, you responded "Maybe", but that was not your intention. There really is no "maybe" about it, and your intentions have nothing to do with whether or not they were. I'm sure you are capable of coming to a definitive conclusion about that. There are a lot of dead people who were mortally wounded by people who didn't intend to kill them. It doesn't make them less dead.

---

I did not tell anyone what to think or why, this is your interpretation and a harsh one. I bring up points of discussion. They can be acknowledged, denied, dismissed or further pursued. That is all anyone can do here and that is all I am doing. Anyone who respects me and wishes to talk receives my consideration. You can believe that or not.

You wrote:

quote:

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I get the feeling that while you are more than happy to "share" your thoughts with others, you aren't quite as happy to hear what others think about them.

---

You wrote:

quote:

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I sincerely wish that you would give some serious attention to understanding your own motives and desires for participating here.

---

You wrote:

quote:

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It is one thing to state that you are just here to share and enjoy a pleasant exchange of thoughts, but it's another to write posts that very much sound like lectures coming from a place of superior wisdom.

---

You wrote:

quote:

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If you are here to fix people, or to change minds to suit your perspective, I wish that at least you would be honest about that with us and yourself. If you are not, then maybe you could be more careful to not use phraseology that sounds very much as though you are.

---

You wrote:

quote:

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I'm not a mind reader, I can only respond to what people say. You know much better than I do why you are posting here.

If you only want to share, then maybe just tell us what you think and why.

---

TedC

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade:
Hi Ted C,

Glad you could relate to my last post to you...

I got on late and don't have time to give the reply I would like. It's a thoughtful post and you will definitely hear from me tomorrow. Thank you!

TedC

[This message has been edited by Jade (edited 05-27-2001).][/B]

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Hi!
I was so pleased when I saw your website! I've had a very similar experience with Lazaris as the one you are describing, although I was much quicker in and out the door again than you guys.
But the confusion in me is the same: How can Lazaris be such a loving entity that I really feel a deep personal connection with, light, love, acceptance, understanding, and all those good things, and then, Jach, Peny, and the Orlando gang, be so dark and almost evil in their ways? It simply doesn't compute!

I started listening to Lazaris tapes in 1999 when I still lived in Copenhagen, Denmark. I was deeply moved, I tried out some of the techniques and they worked! I just knew that I had to meet Lazaris. I was sure that the people around Lazaris would be very successful people.
In March 2000 I joined my first seminar in Los Angeles. I arrived from Denmark with my husband, totally excited, and what a disappointment. The room was full of, what seemed to be, dead people, people with crystals on their heads, people with no energy, people looking lost, people with big searching eyes, people that didn't seem successful at all.
But then the workshop started and Lazaris wasn't a disappointment, on the contrary, but I was very puzzled about the audience still.

Later that year I moved to Los Angeles and attended another workshop, this time it was easier and I had a blast personally with Lazaris. Two days later I was still in love and high, walking on sunshine so to speak.

Then I did the mistake of joining the Forum. My first post attracted Jach's parental guidance, my fourth or fifth post where I asked, in the Bush versus Gore section, why they all were pro Bush, which was really surprising to me, I almost got killed. Everybody attacked me from all sides, called me names, told me that they were farther along than me on the spiritual path, Peny had to bite her lips (I was THAT stupid), and they really tried to break me and even make me apologize to them.
I had also read some posts where some of them wrote that they were using their magic negatively against Gore. I asked if that wasn't black magic, and if someone could explain their ways to me because I didn't understand them. They were all attacking me like sharks, not even one of them had anything that remotely reminded of compassion or a loving attitude towards a newcomer who doesn't know yet.

I quickly dropped out of the discussion and then I started reading a lot of threads, and I was appalled. Peny was so rude to people, I was far from being the only person who had been assaulted there. What I had hoped to be an intelligent gathering of successful individuals, turned out to be a cult of the worst kind. Needless to say that I quickly dropped out of the Forum.

I'm still listening to Lazaris tapes and I love them, I still love Lazaris. I can't forget the loving and deeply, personal touch I had with them. I might even attend another workshop and just take the good stuff and leave the sharks alone, battling amongst themselves in their own dark, muddy sea.

Before I joined the Forum, the concept "spiritual adult" was beautiful, but after being hit so many times by the cult members for not being a spiritual adult, I was traumatized and would cringe in psychological pain, every time I heard the word for a long time after.

Honestly, I've never heard Lazaris condemning the child and the adolescent, but in the Forum they whack each other with spiritual adulthood, and are continuously pointing fingers at who is, and who isn't an adult. Especially Jach is terrible, telling everybody that they aren't adults.

I mean, isn't it beautiful to go through all phases of life, loving our inner child and adolescent, containing them, accepting them and grow into spiritual adulthood in an atmosphere of love and acceptance of all what we are?

I would like to hear from you, it is nice to hear that others think like me.
Are you in SF? I'm as you can hear in LA. Looking forward to your mail.
Helena

Hi again Katie!
Great to hear from you, if you're ever in LA do come by. I don't know yet if I'll join your bulletin board, I might, I don't mind the exposure. Maybe I'll put these emails from me to you, on your board. Good idea with an open forum where everybody's opinion is respected.
I do understand your anger and how traumatizing it must have been, being beaten with Lazaris, I couldn't hear the word "spiritual adult" for weeks without feeling pain, after the trashing I experienced in the Forum. It almost ruined an otherwise beautiful concept for me. So I can imagine how it must be for you, having been so deeply involved.
I don't know if you are right about Lazaris being responsible for those people's actions, maybe he let everybody have their free will? Could it be that, that is the right thing to do, seen from his perspective?
But it sure is strange that he would let all that happen in his name, and that he only addressed things in vague, general terms, I mean, people came, attracted to the light and love, they were opening up, and as soon as they were in the door, someone stood there with a big ax and chopped them to pieces!
I understand you having the need to reject everything that has to do with Lazaris, but if Lazaris truly comes from the light wouldn't it be a shame to throw him away, just because some weirdoes got an extremely beautiful gift they couldn't handle? Maybe they weren't always that weird, maybe they used and misused their power for so many years, that they grew darker, and darker, and more ugly and demented with each passing year? Well, I don't know, it sure is puzzling!
I think that it's good that you guys speak up and address what is wrong. At some point, after you've shouted it all out, you'll probably feel the need to move on to a new positive reality, created by you alone. Being angry is helpful in the process of letting go of something or someone, makes it easier to kick the thing out of your life, but I do think that continuing to write angry posts, can with time become another way of staying stuck with Lazaris, and not moving on.
I have experienced that myself with another Master and group of people, that I was part of for many years and finally left. Took me four years to leave. Anyway, that's a long story but there are many similarities with your situation with Lazaris.
Take care,
Helena

Here once again is the paragraph in which you incorrectly tell Jade what she thinks, why, and why she is wrong.

quote:

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You seem to make the same mistake however in the opposite direction by presupposing, if Lazaris is an act, the teachings are worthless. Do you really mean to say we don't create our own reality? Do you really mean to say that, oh where to begin, love, maybe is not what it's cracked up to be? I don't think you do. In fact I don't think there is a core teaching you wouldn't agree with, yet now since Lazaris is an act, you must ascribe those teachings to other sources. That's okay. You may not think his teachings are unique (as if any teaching could be) but there was something about them that captured your imagination or else you wouldn't have listened. He certainly has given more depth and insight to the emotions than any teaching I ever came across. Why give that up because you don't believe in Lazaris personally?

---

I'm off to bed myself. Talk to you later.

Katie

Welcome.

quote:

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But the confusion in me is the same: How can Lazaris be such a loving entity that I really feel a deep personal connection with, light, love, acceptance, understanding, and all those good things, and then, Jach, Peny, and the Orlando gang, be so dark and almost evil in their ways? It simply doesn't compute!

---

Well, that is the question that has no answer other than assuming that, for Lazaris, unconditional love and unconditional association are one in the same thing.

I believe the gang does have their own explanation as to why nobody likes them or finds them as insightful or loving as they find themselves.

It appears that they believe it is their honesty and refusal to play games that makes them so unappealing and repugnant to the rest of civilization.

I know its laughable but if they really believe that, it is beyond pathetic.

quote:

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I started listening to Lazaris tapes in 1999 when I still lived in Copenhagen, Denmark. I was deeply moved, I tried out some of the techniques and they worked! I just knew that I had to meet Lazaris. I was sure that the people around Lazaris would be very successful people.
In March 2000 I joined my first seminar in Los Angeles. I arrived from Denmark with my husband, totally excited, and what a disappointment. The room was full of, what seemed to be, dead people, people with crystals on their heads, people with no energy, people looking lost, people with big searching eyes, people that didn't seem successful at all.

---

Boy, I had a very similar experience. I went to at total of maybe 5 events during the entire time I was devouring the tapes and I noticed the same things you write about.

However, I will say that the first one I went to [an evening in 1987] the people seemed much more together.

As the years passed, the glassier the eyes seemed to get.

And then there is the workshop paraphanalia which is enough to make Ghandi roll his eyes in judgement and buy a gun.

quote:

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But then the workshop started and Lazaris wasn't a disappointment, on the contrary, but I was very puzzled about the audience still.

---

My experience exactly.

quote:

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Then I did the mistake of joining the Forum. My first post attracted Jach's parental guidance, my fourth or fifth post where I asked, in the Bush versus Gore section, why they all were pro Bush, which was really surprising to me, I almost got killed. Everybody attacked me from all sides, called me names, told me that they were farther along than me on the spiritual path, Peny had to bite her lips (I was THAT stupid), and they really tried to break me and even make me apologize to them.

---

Well, if they were so spiritually evolved they would have realized they can create whatever reality they wish without having to convince the rest of the world to agree with them.

quote:

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I had also read some posts where some of them wrote that they were using their magic negatively against Gore. I asked if that wasn't black magic, and if someone could explain their ways to me because I didn't understand them. They were all attacking me like sharks, not even one of them had anything that remotely reminded of compassion or a loving attitude towards a newcomer who doesn't know yet.

---

I remember your experience in the forum and regret not having jumped in.

You are absolutely right about the nonsense they were talking about.

Regarding this "black magic" issue. It is interesting to note that there is strong evidence that the teachings of Blavatsky [one of Peny's "guides"] were influential in developing the philosophies of one Adolf Hitler.

Strange, that those bozos would so woefully misinterpret Lazaris teaching on reality creation to actually try to do damage to someone.

Of course the "black magic" they participated in everytime that opened a new wound in someone like yourself is probably more the issue.

quote:

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I quickly dropped out of the discussion and then I started reading a lot of threads, and I was appalled. Peny was so rude to people, I was far from being the only person who had been assaulted there. What I had hoped to be an intelligent gathering of successful individuals, turned out to be a cult of the worst kind. Needless to say that I quickly dropped out of the Forum.

---

Peny was awful to people frequently, you are correct. I wonder if Peny suffered some kind of stroke or brain damage years ago that affected her temperment.

I never thought about it before but maybe Peny suffered some kind of brain damage that made it impossible for her to manage her anger.

Interesting to think about. That is total conjecture on my part, I just thought of it while writing this.

quote:

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Especially Jach is terrible, telling everybody that they aren't adults.

---

Especially when you consider how "non adult" it is to be assume the role of "critical parent"

Gotta run,

Cheers,

Jeremiah

Welcome and have fun! We are a bit of a wild ride at times. Real party animals!

Yeah Lynn, you got it right Party animals...heh heh...

It looks like I missed so much over the weekend,trying to read all this...leaves my eyeballs burning...

Jade wrote about the young girls working themselves into trance states pretty easily.
It makes me relize that no only is it easy to do this, alot of it has to do with the group efforts, group-think, and I think back to con;sin.

I ran into a very old friend saturday who's been involved in a strong cult based in India. It was so sad to talk to him, and see how lost he is, he's so sickly too, due to imposed vegan very austere diet.
I wanted to shake him, and could do nothing, his eyes are glazed over, I could do no more than just tell him my thoughts as useful as if I'd been trying to talk a heroin addict out of it.

Then on Sunday ran into an old friend of my partner Scott, they were catching up on all their old buddies, sure enough one of Scott's old best buddies is involved in a SERIOUS cult, based in AZ. spaceship type silliness!
I think it goes to show that like alot of other silliness, cults have always been around, and they are also on the rise.
I'm sure there must be statistics to back this up.

Brings me back to the title of the thread, should we believe J/L's words, absolutely not....
If any part of their operation is dodgey then of course not, as sooo much is more than questionable..

Audrey

Thanks for your thoughts. I understand more the original post from you I was commenting on than I did at the time.

You wrote:

quote:

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I wasn't involved with a spiritually focused group before my involvement with L. I really liked what I read in a few books like Jane Robert's Seth Material and Venice Bloodworth's "The Key to Yourself." At the time that I encountered L, I was wishing for a spiritual connection in my physical reality.

---

I am not posting anonymously if that means not using my real name. I thought when you asked me the question, you were referring to my concealed email. I don't think people need my email at this point. I certainly don't need to hide my first name. If someone wants my full name, or any other background info, they can ask. I would be happy to share anything relevant.

You and TedV looked deeper at my use of the word "cowardly." I believe I was off the mark and TedV was actually right on. I appreciate the feedback from both. It helps when thoughtful people offer me different points of view.

Thanks for you patience in dealing with a newcomer.

quote:

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Originally posted by Katie:
Hi Ted,

Here once again is the paragraph in which you incorrectly tell Jade what she thinks, why, and why she is wrong...

I'm off to bed myself. Talk to you later.

Katie

---

Katie,

You and I seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot which is unfortunate. I think this happens when two people who don't know each other and have different points of view have a first encounter. I express myself in a style that may not be what you consider friendly. You react, I react and eventually there is bad feeling. Perhaps we can try again.

I reread the post. I understand your objections. It is also true that I have no wish to impose my views on anyone. When I write in that style, it is an invitation for the person I was addressing to clarify their ideas for me, which Jade did and which I acknowledged.

Since I consider myself a reasonable person, I had difficulty with your response because it felt like you were more interested in making me wrong than dialoging. Calling me arrogant, judgmental, questioning my motives will only provoke a defensive response. A less confrontational approach might bear more fruit.

Again I want to say I understand your objections. I am new here and new to expressing ideas to strangers. I hope future posts will not create such misunderstandings.

I used to think that "Lazaris" and Seth are more similar than I do now. I have been looking through an old Seth book, just to see where I was before I got involved with L.

There actually are some major differences. Most notably, Seth is not promoted as a spirit-priest intermediary. The reader is on his/her own, no companion orb, forever and a day. IMO this is where the loss of freedom begins. Without being aware, the L follower unwittingly gives up personal thought, personal power and freedom in exchange for direction, structure, story (specifics about Lemuria, Atlantis,etc.) validation (as mapmaker), guidance, companionship and protection. Seth just gives information -- the rest is up to the individual. Please excuse if some of this is a repeat.

Also Seth paints a more dynamic version of seen/unseen universe, more fluid, interweaving, interstitial, interactive.

It's an interesting coincidence that the last tape I worked with has a meditation where one is diving (and breeching ) in pools of value, abundance and freedom.

Guess that one worked

Jade