Welcome to the site!

I know it's confusing to read all these posts and figure out who we all are - especially now that there are two Teds. I'm Katie's husband. I received your email as well. Sorry to hear about your trouncing in the Forum. Doesn't take much to be trashed - usually original thinking will suffice.

I think that within a group, where nobody has dignity, or aren't being respected as individuals, a lot of negativity builds up. Then at the first sight of someone's weakness, that person instantly becomes the outlet for everybody's negative build up.
I remember my school days, where all us kids were forced to go to school. We were cramped together, 22 kids in a classroom. Nobody gave a rat's a.. about who we were, what potential somone might have. We had to be group members and do everything as a group of 22. There were no ressources to take care of individuals, even singing class, or reading loud were often done by us as a group. The negativity was immense. One small little diversion by somebody and the whole group of kids attacked.

This mentality is not only a Con.Sin. thing. We learn it from early on, and we learn to be submissive, and it becomes a: "if you can't beat them join them." thing. It's ugly!
If we hadn't been used to that kind of respectless treatment and abuse from early on, I don't think that we would have ever joined groups of people, cults, etc. that behave like that towards us.
The abuse from e.g. Con.Sin. happened because we were vulnerable, and without a real sense of self-worth and self-respect.
If we respect ourselves we won't let it happen. I think it's that simple.
Easier said than done off course, as it obviously is a long process, becoming aware of what is happening, and then acting on it, etc. etc. but I feel personally that I'm on my way now.

By the way, it is difficult telleing you Ted from the other Ted in here, but I'll get there...

Helena

Oh, that's easy, TedV is the handsome one!

(sorry TedC, just a joke, I couldn't resist

Your take on group dynamic is interesting but I think there is a lot more going on within Con:Sin than just some inevitable childish antics.

Con:Sin meets the criteria for a cult or destructive mind control group.

Steve Hassan, a well known cult awareness expert uses the BITE method to determine whether or not a group is a cult.

BITE is an acronym for controls of Behavior, Information, Thought, and Emotions.

If a group practices these controls they pass the test for being a cult.

I give Con:Sin an A+++. I would find it difficult for anyone reading here to dispute that.

Mind control is a deliberate tactic which is well researched and documented.

No one is immune to it.

There are other identified cult tactics which Con:Sin employs, such as Love Bombing and the use of "loaded language" and the use of repeated hypnosis. I'm still trying to find the information, but I read awhile ago about two cult leaders who went to jail for doing that without the knowledge or permission of their followers.

To date, no one who has read up on cults and cult criteria has come here to dispute that Con:Sin meets the model.

There are lots of discussions here about all of this, if you would like to do a search.

Maybe I'll pop one of the threads up to the top, I think it's important.

If we are to address the issues we have or don't have with Con:Sin, I believe that it is very important to first understand and ponder the possibility that we have been deliberately subjected to mind control techniques.

Once we are clear that our thoughts are not being manipulated or controlled, I think it's easier to feel comfortable with our opinions.

This of course, is for each of us to determine for ourselves, but I would hope that determination to come from more than a quick knee-jerk denial.

Damned if I ever thought anyone could mind control me, and let me tell you, it was like a bucket of ice water over the head to realize that I had been.

I'm still pondering the implications of having had my subconscious messed with so intensely for twelve years.

Anyway, I do think the problems with Con:Sin are far more serious than just a bit of nasty group dynamic.

Even if that's all it is, it's still much much less than I would expect from a group which is headed by an all-wise and loving being, one whose teachings are chock full of
information about childish behavior.

If the one Lazaris came specifically to talk to about this, and those around her who have 24/7 access don't get it, what hope is there for the rest of us?

Somehow all that resonance and healing is lacking big time, wouldn't you say?

Nice to hear from you.

Katie

You wrote:

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There actually are some major differences. Most notably, Seth is not promoted as a
spirit-priest intermediary. The reader is on his/her own, no companion orb, forever and a day. IMO this is where the loss of freedom begins.

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Indeed, the personal interaction was lacking with Seth, no seminars, just words on a page. He was also very intellectual. I don't think he talked about the emotions, although it's been eight or nine years since I perused one of his books, so don't hold me to that. Tell me if I'm wrong, but are you equating the loss of freedom with the personal interaction that Lazaris promoted but could not follow through on (since he doesn't have a body!)? I'm not sure. Is it that personal interaction creates dependence?

You wrote:

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Without being aware, the L follower unwittingly gives up personal thought, personal power and freedom in exchange for direction, structure, story (specifics about Lemuria, Atlantis,etc.) validation (as mapmaker), guidance, companionship and protection. Seth just gives information -- the rest is up to the individual.

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Perhaps not being able to manifest using the techniques could feel like a loss of personal power? I never got one technique to work. Did I feel disempowered? Yes and no. I wish I could have gotten them to work but I never tried very hard. I agree, one is more inclined to shift blame to oneself rather than say the technique must be bad and that can be disempowering. However to say that L. was disempowering people by his use of techniques presupposes that the techniques are false. I know you have already reached that conclusion. But in that case, you assume L. is deceitful which leads to a circular argument. L. disempowers because he deceives and deceives because he uses false techniques (disempowers). Either one may be true but you can't use one to assert the other without some other relevant data.

Of course, there's always the C:S issue which needs no more discussion with me. If this is where the disempowerment really comes from, I would ask, is it at all possible to separate C:S and L? If the answer is no, then all my questions are answered. I still separate them because all my interaction was with L. and not C:S.

I hope you don't mind the questions. I know you have been on this site a while and maybe have hashed out these ideas before. Your statements were provocative for me, thus my inquiries. They are not an attempt at persuasion but rather an opportunity for me to understand how others view L.

Thanks,

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Originally posted by Katie:
Hi Helena,

Oh, that's easy, TedV is the handsome one!
(sorry TedC, just a joke, I couldn't resist

Katie

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Ha! You can recognize me by my pro-L stance. TedV would cringe if you ever mistake him for me!

I don't know if TedV would cringe, certainly not at a pro-Lazaris stance. Some of our dearest friends are pro-Lazaris.

Ted's a Libra, he'll give due consideration to anyone's thoughts far above and beyond the call of duty sometimes IMNSHO.

Anyway, Ted loves it when I compare him with other men, he always tells me to go right ahead, cause he knows it will only make him look better in my eyes.

N.B. I said he was a Libra, but I never mentioned humble!

Katie

I'll do my best to respond to your questions.

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Tell me if I'm wrong, but are you equating the loss of freedom with the personal interaction that Lazaris promoted but could not follow through on (since he
doesn't have a body!)? I'm not sure.

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I'm referring to the internalization of "Lazaris" words on almost everything. In my experience, after I decided that I trusted L, I accepted everything he said as truth, thereby granting him authority -- L as the ultimate authority on any subject. I think that gaining people's trust is the key, then it's downhill (literally) from there for L & C:S. And after hearing that same voice, usually daily, year after year, a huge amount of his thinking got a major foothold in my gray matter. When thinking on almost any significant subject, I'd find myself remembering what "Lazaris" said about it, and since I trusted L completely.....

The personal interaction was also internalized. No matter that he didn't have a body. I, like many others, asked for L's presence in dreams, meditations, or anytime. "Lazaris" encouraged this repeatedly, said he'd always be there, even into eternity. And sometimes an energy, unusual or desired experience was there. But I believe I actually experienced, not "Lazaris", but Love as "Lazaris", just as a Christian might let in Love as Jesus.

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Do you think L. tricked you into giving up your personal thought, power and freedom? [quote]
Absolutely. Because of the love-bombing, the persistent subtle and bot so subtle inducements to trust him, and the insidious effects of the internalizing process I described above. Yes, I'm the one who gave my power away, but "Lazaris" presented a fine inducement, over and over again. There was a tastety baited hook and I bit. Aside from the supposed omnipresence (just ask for the Spark) and omniscient qualities of L, every tape and seminar and book was/is promoted as full of growth, magic, wonders, blah, blah blah.

[quote]For instance, I connected with the Lemuria stories and felt empowered by them in so far as they were an example ofa culture attuned to spirituality, what such a culture
would be like and how things would function. How is hearing that story disempowering?

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Theses "stories" are presented not as story, but as the facts of our spiritual heritage as a real source of inner memory, from which we are to draw power. They aren't delivered as stories, though that's closer to the truth. "Lazaris" provides great detail about Lemuria and Atlantis, then ties it into crystals, which C:S sells for an arm and a leg. Furthermore, if one doesn't experience Lemurian lifetimes, crystal cities, unicorns, The Lemurian Dreamer, etc., -- what a spiritual clutz! (I've had significant experiences working with crystals but prefer to let them stand on their own rather than trying to fit them into L's narrative) I believe that civilizations such as these did exist, but I think "Lazaris" capitalized upon their appeal and embellished myths for his own purpose, presenting his version as the one and only spiritual truth. Hey, he told us none of the books about Lemuria and Atlantis are valid, so ain't he the authoritee (again).

About "Lazaris's" techniques you say, you "never got one technique to work", but you didn't "try very hard." Yes, maybe you just need to try harder to get results, definitely yourproblem . And if they are so swell, why don't you bust your b***s until they do work? I don't get why you are so intent on defending techniques that don't work for you.

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However to say that L. was disempowering people by his use of techniques presupposes that the techniques are false. I know you have already reached that conclusion. But in that case, you assume L. is deceitful which leads to a circular argument. L. disempowers because he deceives and deceives because he uses false techniques (disempowers).

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This is your circular thinking, not mine. In fact, in my posts to you I have mentioned many other issues, I didn't focus on the techniques. Personally, I did a lot of meditations. Very hit and miss success, definitely much more miss. L's lists of techniques seem tedious; the few I did do did not bring results.

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Either one may be true but you can't use, one to assert the other without some other relevant data.

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You bring up the C:S issue,

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If this is where the disempowerment really comes from, I would ask, is it at all possible to separate C:S and L? If the answer is no, then all my questions are answered.

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Then all of your questions are answered!

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I still separate them because all my interaction was with L. and not C:S.

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Glad you think my statements are provocative. I used to compartmentalize my thinking about "Lazaris" and the incongruities, but it bothered me a lot. As I told you, shortly after I asked for resolution of my feelings (while making a piece special ordered for Peny, always want to make my jewelry with good energy)I found myself right here.

Jade

Like you, when I really put the questions out there, the answers came in spades. Answers which have brought me to a place of peace.

I did a lot of asking for help with my "issues" about Peny after I had met her at the Millennium Celebration, and then had the creepy crawlies all over my back during Lazaris' big public extolling of her many virtues. I really really believed that I was having an intense "negative ego" attack which was trying to prevent me from getting all the intense magic of the event.

Not long after I made a strong strong determination to get to the bottom of my negative issues, Forum Storm broke out. I'll never forget the moment when I just knew that I had had enough! I had to say STOP!. I knew she was lying and manipulating, but I did still believe the whole Lazaris story. How could I ever describe my intense confusion and fear of loss? Only those who have experienced it could possibly understand.

When I decided to stand up, all I knew was that I was doing the right thing, I knew that with my whole heart and mind. From there I just had to have faith, and follow my instincts. Peny and her Gang did the rest, and for that I thank them. I had seen them bare their fangs, but this was the first time they attacked and drew my blood. I didn't know you and the others who had been sliced and diced, and when I had seen it happen, I allowed myself to believe that the others had somehow caused their own misery (I do apologize once again).

Once I saw my husband bleeding and felt the sting of the fangs myself, I knew how dangerous and vicious they really were. From there it has been only a matter of trying to figure out why.

It has to do with a whole lot more than them just "being human".

Did you find it helpful to read up on cult criteria? I know that I did, it allowed for me to sort through my confusion and get it organized into some kind of logical explanation.

When I saw how clearly Con:Sin functions as a cult, and learned more about mind control and manipulation, so much fell into place for me.

I'm wondering if that was a part of your process as well.

I think the reason it helped is because by reading about other cults, I was able to view the behaviors from a much more objective and clinical perspective. I think I had to do that, to step back from my own personal experience, and just observe the evaluations of others about this very well defined and documented behavior I had been experiencing.

I never wanted to believe that I was in a cult, or that I had been mind controlled, but once I had an objective explanation for my experience, I was delighted. Much better to be a somewhat embarrassed exiting cult member than a mind numbed active one.

Anyway, just some thoughts, I was wondering if the cult information functioned in the same way for you.

Katie

But the dynamic is the same. And the promise of L to be there any old time etc., combined with words that are geared to make you think you are functioning autonomously, have a very deceptive effect.

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I didn't know you and the others who had been sliced and diced, and when I had seen it happen, I allowed myself to believe that the others had somehow caused their own misery (I do apologize once again).

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I think of that event as a big wake up call for me. And though it caused me to feel confused and wary, I didn't snap out of the trance until I came here. You recall, it took me a couple of weeks (of emails I did my processing in) to step completely through the door.

The whole thing felt monumental at the time. To me it's a beautiful thing how our paths crossed again in this completely different environment (thanks to you and Ted). You had my forgiveness from the get go, since then I have added indulgences and dispensations.

Love,
Jade

One thing I have wondered about is Peny, Jach & Co. doing group programming designed to effect the minds of followers. I have also wondered about subliminal programming in the music or other tapes. Had theses thoughts of "telecommunication" during the time I was waking up from "Lazaris." Though I can only speculate on this sort of thing, I certainly wouldn't put it past them. I mean what was P doing in that "Crystal Cave" -- doubt that it had much to do with sweetness and light.

Love,
Jade

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Originally posted by Jade:
Hi Ted C,

I'll do my best to respond to your questions...

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I just read your long response. Thanks for taking the time to consider my questions. I don't have much time today but will definitely write something in the next few days (I have some visitors this weekend). I definitely understand more of where you and others on this site are coming from.

Thanks again,

TedC

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To me it's a beautiful thing how our paths crossed again in this completely different environment (thanks to you and Ted).

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Oh, it's a gorgeous and glorious thing to know you Jade! Truly, no thanks are needed, we are both so grateful for your beautiful participation in our lives.

I do think this site is in it's way miraculous, and you are certainly a big part of that miracle.

Katie

I echo Katie's sentiments. It's wonderful to have you here. Your posts are so wee thought out and profound. This board would not be the same without you.

Jade

I agree that this site is a special type of reality creation, and very magical indeed.

I'm profoundly glad to know about this site, to read the variety of ruminations and get to know the persons involved.