Previously, and even subsequently, I got a degree in Psych, am a massage therapist, studied all kinds of different things related to metaphysics and humanity, among other things.

I offer these statements of credentialling in order to validate my feelings and thoughts and ideas and concepts, even if both my credentials and etc. may all be modest.

I was told about this site several months ago and looked around quite a bit and then returned a few days ago after hearing about Peny. I am grateful to this site because otherwise I would be unaware of a great deal since I don't participate in the Lazaris.com site.

Thank you for your courage and determination.

I wish, however, to offer some of my own views. As I told a friend earlier this a.m., my hurts in regards to anything concerning Lazaris are many yet they happened mostly years ago and I'm doing a pretty good job of getting past them.

I felt humiliated by Peny in front of 600 people more than 15 years ago. I had Jach delete a "post" of mine from the Compuserve room and also had some other, non-friendly, interactions with him (via telephone and email.) I also talked with Peny and had her apologizing for my hurt years earlier (though she didn't mention it publically.)

I have been privy to many, many details about these people from a variety of sources and encounters of different types. Some of my stories could cauliflower many of the ears upon which they'd fall. I won't, however, tell any here, so your ears aren't being cooked by me, at least not now.

I did, though, finally conclude around four years ago that I simply don't agree with the "style" of these particular people. That was/is disappointing but it certainly doesn't end my life. It is, however, significant to me.

In the interest of some brevity and because I simply don't want to "gossip," I will spare the details but, I can say that I share in the types of events many in here have talked about.

I have to draw some lines, however, and I draw them this way: Lazaris, no matter what I or anyone else says about Jach, et al., is a phenomenon. I have personally witnessed incredible feats, some not observed by any other human being (none living, anyway,)and this alone has been enough to cement me as a huge and mostly loyal admirer and grateful friend, as much as I can be.

Like others, the moneys spent have often bothered me yet I parted willingly. What price could I really put on some of the values I obtained this way? I can only guess...

Some of you have attempted to call Lazaris a fraud, a manifestation of some sort by Jach. I suspect Jach would be enormously flattered, in some regards. I only know that for me this is simply untrue. No human being, none, is capable of doing that to which I've been witness. No amount of Silva Mind Control or reading from the Book of the Dead or Solipsism or Hypnosis or religious teachings or Ayn Rand, etc. and on-and-on is capable of what I have witnessed. I know others have missed these things. I wish Lazaris had performed more overtly...oh, I wish he had! And I'd like to share some of these things but, I hope you can understand why I would be reluctant to share...some because they are personal and others because I know would provoke attempts to invalidate them (some people can never believe beyond what they wish to believe) and I don't have the time or interest in defending myself or my reality.

Speaking of reality, I was realizing this morning that maybe we're all part of a reality that really isn't as great as we'd like to think it is. Some of you must remember Lazaris talking about infinite realities, at that time he was mentioning Atlantis and how at that very instant there was still Atlantis, alive and thriving but, for us, it was only fiction.

It occurred to me that maybe there's another reality, wherein Peny is slim, alive and happy and Michaell is making a commitment to life and Jach is jovial and enormously giving, etc. But here we all are, creating unhappiness, mistrust, paranoia, and on-and-on. Since I'm here, too, then I'm not real pleased with myself for creating this reality (we do agree with the basic premise of reality creation, I think.) Maybe we take life too seriously or maybe not seriously enough. Who knows? I certainly don't. I only know that I have more work to do, in very many ways.

I am truly disappointed and saddened by the culmination of events climaxed by the past five or six days. I know that things will never be as they were prior to those days. I only hope we can somehow be more productive in a positive world. As important as these things are, they simply cannot rule my life.

I'm an enneagram eight, not given to "following." Unfortunately, I think, too many others aren't quite ready to be self-determined. Maybe now there's a wonderful opportunity for those who have been hurt and delusioned to find their own paths. Maybe that will still be available to them with the help of Lazaris. Maybe they'll do it without. Either way, no one, with or without a turban, gets away "scott free."

That's a beautiful post really. I find a lot of wisdom in it.

quote:

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It occurred to me that maybe there's another reality, wherein Peny is slim, alive and happy and Michaell is making a commitment to life and Jach is jovial and enormously giving, etc. But here we all are, creating unhappiness, mistrust, paranoia, and on-and-on. Since I'm here, too, then I'm not real pleased with myself for creating this reality (we do agree with the basic premise of reality creation, I think.) Maybe we take life too seriously or maybe not seriously enough. Who knows? I certainly don't. I only know that I have more work to do, in very many ways.

---

I think these are all valid and interesting questions to ponder. There's also something very gently loving in it that I sense. It is really beautiful to be able to have this world of your preference and design include a happy reality for those who have hurt and disappointed you, those who enticed your trust under false pretenses. In all sincerity, I am moved by that. It speaks very highly of you in my mind.

As you well know, I am no believer in Lazaris, but have great belief in the beauty and power of the human soul. I believe that when a heart is open or opened, a tremendous
energy of wisdom and healing is let free. When that happens, miracles and magic occur and the universe shifts. I think some of us think of that phenomenon as "Lazaris" and some of us reject the label and the marketing firm. Whatever.

I do feel that energy while reading your post.

I've been having this discussion with others about a comment a friend made recently. She said that she felt a great let down and disappointment because she now felt that the opportunity to receive an apology, or to find resolution with Peny is gone.

I think that might be a big part of my emotion around all this too, that somewhere in my heart I did hope for a time of peace and resolution. Maybe your hypothesised reality is your place of healing and resolution. It feels that way to me, but of course, I can't speak for you.

I'm really glad you wrote, I got a lot out of your post.

All the best,

quote:

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Originally posted by fingerprince:
Dear Fingerprince,

Welcome.

[quote]I have been privy to many, many details about these people from a variety of sources and encounters of different types. Some of my stories could cauliflower many of the ears upon which they'd fall. I won't, however, tell any here, so your ears aren't being cooked by me, at least not now.

---

LOL well, at this point it would take a whole lot to shock us. I am glad you don't feel pressure to share anything that would make you uncomfortable.

As much as we want details to put this story together, I certainly understand how painful some things are to know, let alone tell.

quote:

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In the interest of some brevity and because I simply don't want to "gossip," I will spare the details but, I can say that I share in the types of events many in here have talked about.

---

I really understand your desire not to gossip. I felt the same way. Sometimes I start to write things and stop because it does feel like gossip and I could never prove it anyway.

I have also found the hunger for information here to be driven by an intense desire to heal rather than collect gossip. So I have said more than I might normally. Cuz I hate gossip too.

quote:

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I have to draw some lines, however, and I draw them this way: Lazaris, no matter what I or anyone else says about Jach, et al., is a phenomenon. I have personally witnessed incredible feats, some not observed by any other human being (none living, anyway,)and this alone has been enough to cement me as a huge and mostly loyal admirer and grateful friend, as much as I can be.

---

Yeah, I tend to agree with you that Lazaris is a phenom. I just haven't settled on what kind.

Personally,as I have said in other places, it is my opinion and my opinion only that Jach is not intelligent enough or more importantly disciplined enought to manufacture Lazaris conciously.

It might be part of the "grift" to appear as prosaic and as passive as he does in person but my sense is his powers of deception are not that profound.

I am pretty certain time will tell.

One other thing to consider and again don't share what you aren't comfortable with but with regard to the phenomena that you witnessed Lazaris perform.

Michaell and Peny had an interest in Nikolai Tesla and Michaell studied Tesla extensively if my information is correct and they were interested in replicating his experiments.

Tesla was famous for several things but if the phenomena you witnessed had to do with lights appearing to have no source etc. you could have been witnessing a replication of Tesla's work.

Just a thought. My belief in Lazaris was not based on anything other than what I pereived to be a profound intellect.. but the latter material seems to fall short of the earlier in that regard.

Any thoughts on the evoloution of the material or on the possiblity that Lazaris may have abandoned them at a point because of their irresponsible behavior?

quote:

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Like others, the moneys spent have often bothered me yet I parted willingly. What price could I really put on some of the values I obtained this way? I can only guess...

---

For me this isn't a market value question as much as it is a revelation of sheer greed.

They knew damn well that people were bankrupting themselves going to seminars etc. Once I heard of a woman who spent all her money buying the "Peny castoff" jewelry because she thought she was getting magick with her purchase.

I know, hard to feel sympathy for someone that naive but who knows on what level she was being manipulated. Jury is still out on that. We could have a "manchurian seminar attendee" pattern of deceit. I honestly dont know how deep the corruption and deceit go..but it would be great to find out..

quote:

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Some of you have attempted to call Lazaris a fraud, a manifestation of some sort by Jach. I suspect Jach would be enormously flattered, in some regards. I only know that for me this is simply untrue. No human being, none, is capable of doing that to which I've been witness. No amount of Silva Mind Control or reading from the Book of the Dead or Solipsism or Hypnosis or religious teachings or Ayn Rand, etc. and on-and-on is capable of what I have witnessed.

---

I believe you and while I am curious I won't pressure you to reveal details.

I would be interested in hearing your thoughts about why Lazaris never commented on the hurt that Jach and Peny inflicted on the "friends" of Lazaris.

Maybe you did hear something that could help answer that lack of response, lack of responsibility from Lazaris to his "friends" that his marketers were seemingly exploiting.

quote:

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I know others have missed these things. I wish Lazaris had performed more overtly...oh, I wish he had! And I'd like to share some of these things but, I hope you can understand why I would be reluctant to share...some because they are personal and others because I know would provoke attempts to invalidate them (some people can never believe beyond what they wish to believe) and I don't have the time or interest in defending myself or my reality.

---

I for one won't ask you to defend anything. I wont try to invalidate it either. Whatever you want to share, I would like to discuss with you in a reasoned way.

I may have questions, but I wouldn't put you on the defensive..or make you part of an agenda to disprove or prove anything. I am interested in the truth about this. period.

quote:

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Speaking of reality, I was realizing this morning that maybe we're all part of a reality that really isn't as great as we'd like to think it is. Some of you must remember Lazaris talking about infinite realities, at that time he was mentioning Atlantis and how at that very instant there was still Atlantis, alive and thriving but, for us, it was only fiction.[quote]

[quote] It occurred to me that maybe there's another reality, wherein Peny is slim, alive and happy and Michaell is making a commitment to life and Jach is jovial and enormously giving, etc. But here we all are, creating unhappiness, mistrust, paranoia, and on-and-on. Since I'm here, too, then I'm not real pleased with myself for creating this reality (we do agree with the basic premise of reality creation, I think.) Maybe we take life too seriously or maybe not seriously enough. Who knows? I certainly don't. I only know that I have more work to do, in very many ways.

---

I see what your getting at. I think that it is important to watch out here for blame, most importantly self blame.

There are many reasons why one might have chosen to create this reality.

Most strikingly, the reason that comes to my mind has to do with becoming spiritually dependant on the words, thoughts and actions of another.

Maybe some of us thought the only way to break that addiction was to "create" this corruption in Jach and Peny.

I am not sure the picture you paint of a thin corruption free Peny is so appealing.

In short, I think Lazaris had become a dependancy for many and this creation, inelegant as it may or MAY NOT be is one sure way to shake ones mouth from a very questionable teat and start to think spiritually for him/herself.

The moment any of us paused to long to say "What does Lazaris say about such and such" and left it there, not processing our own thoughts and feelings was the initial moment of corruption.

If we honestly look at it and realize when or if we started to replace the process of real thinking with referencing Lazaris, we can identify the moment of corruption.

I also think Jach and Peny's corruption was evident for many many years. The fact that we never responded or held them accountable in a significant way helped create the monster.

Of course, we didn't create them to be corrupt.

We allowed it.

They bear the responsiblity of causing and cultivating their own corruption..

Cheers,

Jeremiah

I too am happy you posted here, and glad to hear another voice by one who has obviously thought deeply about spiritual relationships.

I share in not wanting you to hae to defend yourself, your beliefs, or your experiences.

I would like to offer the point of view that perhaps some of these incredible things you witnessed could have been created by yourself, not by L. or Jach.

You sound like the type of person who has strong capabilities regarding meditation, and after working with so many L. tapes and attending so many seminars, I would think your ability to imagine will have been inhanced.

I have found my ability to follow other visual meditations regarding chakras etc is now far more powerful, and a few nights ago I had a very moving meditation and I visualized the entire room brightly lit to correspond with the chakras, as I moved through them.

I do appreciate having worked this muscle over the years, and hope my ability to imagine is kept strong. I do appreciate your words regarding in another reality Peny is slim, and Jach is giving (grin). This proves my point about your strong abilities in this area. It is a prettier picture to hold.

I look forward to more posts from you.

Thanks,
Audrey

There was a line in your message that "she felt a great let down and disappointment because she now felt that the
opportunity to receive an apology, or to find resolution with Peny is gone." Yes, this is one of life's great frustrations, isn't it? People are forever physically unable to "complete" with someone else way too often. Death has a certain physical permanence, doesn't it? ;-) But, as we all probably know, working with the subconscious via therapy or hypnosis or meditation can provide a degree of closure that may not be as "real" as we'd have preferred but can be very satisfying to that sense of being unfinished. In some cases it may even be preferred (i.e., safer.) As to me and that parallel reality, maybe it is an escapist place for me. I do have certain fantasies of a place where everyone gets along with everyone else.

Dreamspring (Chris): Thank You, also, for your supportive comments.

As to "telling all," well, it certainly is tempting to do so, especially when we can get attention by doing so. The Bible mentions "casting our pearls before swine." Not a particularly flattering statement but one which harshly lays it out. It simply isn't worth the gamble. If I were in a room with you, I would say many things that I would not in here. The internet is very seductive yet I have learned to resist the allure. There are dozens or hundreds of eyes, not all of which I can connect with...

Jeremiah:

Laughing is great, isn't it? What a treasure when we can laugh and not simultaneously hurt anyone.

I completely agree with your belief about Jach not being able to manufacture Lazaris in any conscious manner. I would extend that to say that it would be impossible for any human but, I'm limited by my experience of humans.

Interesting that you say what you do about the change in material. It would probably make for great discussion. I will respond in several ways: one, yes, it's possible. Another, as we accumulate a basis or foundation, as we add things, they appear small. If we were to take a snapshot, however, it's size would be more apparent. Yet another (and the one I, perhaps cynically, see as most likely): we're not ready for more. What's the point in teaching bored students about calculus if they haven't yet bothered to learn addition? Lazaris mentioned we'd get "Longevity 3" once we've gotten comfortable and learned 1 and 2. He has also said that he'd be happy to move on once we're done with what we've gotten so far (to paraphrase.) I guess this would qualify us as "irresponsible," wouldn't it? Frankly, though, I'm happy that I'm not feeling that I'm missing a lot since I am way too busy in my life to attend workshops as I used to.

As to the cost of workshops, I can't generalize to everyone else. I have tried for twenty years yet I simply am unable. I will say this much about what it's been for myself: When I went to my first 3-day workshop (they didn't have weekend or two-day workshops yet at that time) I spent each night sleeping in the back of my station wagon because I could not afford to stay anywhere else (the drive home was about 75 miles.) My financial condition was primitive, at best. I have grown and prospered (relatively) and I don't have to consider that anymore. I owe many of the changes in my life to my growth, fueled tremendously by Lazaris. I also agree that people tend to value that which costs them more than that which doesn't. As to the greed, that's not on my conscience. I know a guy who thinks nothing of spending $400 on lap dances. I could call the dancer greedy. Or, I could say that the guy knows the price and finds it worth the product. An apparent fair trade.

I absolutely love what you say about creating a reality of corruption in order to break away...!!! Nice words!

Again, we really can't blame anyone else, I agree. Yeah, it hurts but, we can rebound and recover and move on, stronger than ever.

As to our hurts, I've questioned this myself. I can only conjecture. I am aware of one telephone consultation by someone else who spent his entire timeslot complaining about Peny. Lazaris' response at the end was something like "We don't see it that way." So, how does Lazaris see things? I don't expect to ever know.

Audrey:

Thank you, too, for your welcome.

Imagination seems to be the key, doesn't it?
I believe that life is a subjective experience. As such, anything and everything can be see as something OTHER and yet it will still be ME at the end. Where do others leave off and I begin? What exactly is another? Can we ever demonstrate objectivity? Is Lazaris another or is he ANOTHER? ;-)

quote:

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In short, I think Lazaris had become a dependancy for many and this creation, inelegant as it may or MAY NOT be is one sure way to shake ones mouth from a very questionable teat and start to think spiritually for him/herself.

---

This is the same explanation I have found for my own many years of involvement with "Lazaris." When I first encountered "Lazaris" I did not want a guru, but I wanted a "spiritual" connection and valid information. So along comes a love bombing "friend", "no taller" than me with a mega load of information.

quote:

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The moment any of us paused to long to say "What does Lazaris say about such and such" and left it there, not processing our own thoughts and feelings was the initial moment of corruption.

---

quote:

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I also think Jach and Peny's corruption was evident for many many years. The fact that we never responded or held them accountable in a significant way helped create the monster.

---

And no one connected with C:S, including "Lazaris" exhibited the openess, joy, fulfillment, and vulnerability that was on the agenda. Though L could be humorous, these other qualities were absent. (Like what else happens for "Lazaris" besides teaching our dense energy selves? Oh yeah, we're not evolved enough to grok it.)

I don't regret learning this lesson, but 14 years made it far too long.

Love,
Jade

quote:

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Laughing is great, isn't it? What a treasure when we can laugh and not simultaneously hurt anyone.

---

When I heard Lazaris observe that a sense of humor is a symptom of an evolved consciousness, I trusted him so much more. I always thought bullshit piety and faux reverence surrounding so much "spiritual teaching" a profoundly deadening atmosphere.

I also think that humor is difficult to control and often what offends people is not the irreverence but the deeper implication of humor. Those implications being a freedom of perspective that cannot be controlled.

quote:

---

Interesting that you say what you do about the change in material. It would probably make for great discussion. I will respond in several ways: one, yes, it's possible. Another, as we accumulate a basis or foundation, as we add things, they appear small. If we were to take a snapshot, however, it's size would be more apparent. Yet another (and the one I, perhaps cynically, see as most likely): we're not ready for more.

---

I see your point and it’s a good one to ponder. My take on it at this juncture is that once we cross the “bridge of belief” where we function out of a place of relying on the knowledge that belief creates reality, there is perhaps nothing left to say after a fashion.

What I mean is that once that information is grokked, everything changes and perhaps the “next” steps over that threshold simply cannot be uttered or spoken by anyone, so individual is the journey.

quote:

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What's the point in teaching bored students about calculus if they haven't yet bothered to learn addition?

---

What is the point of teaching addition so poorly that the students cannot grasp the calculus? I say this somewhat tongue in cheek. I don’ t think Lazaris taught the basics of reality creation poorly, not by any means. But I do think it is questionable why the emphasis on technique when the real power is in the depth of understanding how reality is created. Seems to put the cart before the horse.

Of course, if you believe as I do, that we create our realities all of this mess around Lazaris is an expression of our beliefs. Not necessarily a “negative” expression but an expression of our deeper belief that a certain amount of independence is necessary to go across that bridge of belief.

I believe [g] it is. I think to cross that bridge you cannot be a follower. You can have Lazaris or anyone at your side perhaps but functionally, you cannot follow anyone to that level of awareness in my opinion.

My personal view is that many were still sucking on the teat and their greater consciousness had to shake them free at any cost. There are some steps as I say, you simply must initiate yourself. Not alone, but you must initiate them yourself..

quote:

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As to the cost of workshops, I can't generalize to everyone else. I have tried for twenty years yet I simply am unable. I will say this much about what it's been for myself: When I went to my first 3-day workshop (they didn't have weekend or two-day workshops yet at that time) I spent each night sleeping in the back of my station wagon because I could not afford to stay anywhere else (the drive home was about 75 miles.) My financial condition was primitive, at best. I have grown and prospered (relatively) and I don't have to consider that anymore. I owe many of the changes in my life to my growth, fueled tremendously by Lazaris. I also agree that people tend to value that which costs them more than that which doesn't. As to the greed, that's not on my conscience. I know a guy who thinks nothing of spending $400 on lap dances. I could call the dancer greedy. Or, I could say that the guy knows the price and finds it worth the product. An apparent fair trade.

---

It isn’t the cost of workshops so much for me that is representative of greed but rather the crystal/accessory business. The other greed issue here is who is benefiting? Lazaris must know that numbers of people going into debt etc to attend the sheer number of these things out of fear. A fear choice. I don’t understand why Lazaris isn’t willing or able to respond to this. Why isn’t Lazaris responsible on this issue?

quote:

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As to our hurts, I've questioned this myself. I can only conjecture. I am aware of one telephone consultation by someone else who spent his entire timeslot complaining about Peny. Lazaris' response at the end was something like "We don't see it that way." So, how does Lazaris see things? I don't expect to ever know.

---

Funny you should mention this. Lazaris talks about Peny as though Peny were his tempermental employer..lol.. I don’t get it.

It is almost as though Lazaris made some Faustian bargain [but with which devil] to elevate Peny in exchange for something else..

This Peny worship is the strongest argument for Lazaris being a fabrication of Jach’s unconscious mind. The strongest argument for Jach being a flawed channel.

Peny told me once that Lazaris had told her a mutual friend of ours was all a “sham”. I don’t remember the exact words but sham was one of them. Basically she told me Lazaris said this person was really a scared and manipulative individual full of grandiosity and fear.

It certainly was an accurate assessment of this person [who Peny an I were both on the outs with having severed the relationship over a forum controversy] But what about Peny’s ethics in revealing this to me??

It also seemed that Lazaris was very indulgent with Peny from the private talks she described but that was filtered through her so who knows.

I do know and think it is interesting to note that Peny and Jach quickly and secretly befriended this person again shortly after the forum controversy. All the nasty things they said about him I guess were now unimportant.

Anyone from the forum reading who recognizes the incident will notice if they try to access it in the archives the entire bloody mess is GONE.

I also want to add that with respect to the reality of Lazaris. I once had a conversation with Jach [about cynicism of all things] in which I referenced a famous quote by Oscar Wilde. Jach had never heard the quote, which in and of itself is no big deal.

It did get me thinking though, about the thoughtful references that Lazaris has made over the years to Kant, Nietche, Dialectics, Plato, Eric Hoffer, Ruth Benedict, Albert Schwietzer..as well as sciences.

You could argue that “Peny’s quote sheet” indicates a wide range of sources. But I would say that Jach probably didn’t know half those references and Peny’s interest in it was only [IMO] as source of something to spout in her ever ending project of self deification.

Lot to think about. I also think that suppressing questions has the same spiritual/psychological danger that repressing feelings has. Indeed questions often surround deep feelings. I think healing is important and I think questioning is an essential part of this healing.

Cheers,

Jeremiah

I would encourage you to fully express both the strength of your opinions about Lazaris -- and your strength of rational for them. Rational -- both logical and emotional / experiencial.

As it is, IMO you are playing a manipulative game -- the "I am a credable expert and authority on topic X -- and I have a black box (that I won't let you see inside) that makes what I say RIGHT."

Due to the fact that no one would dare challenge another who IMO played this game: Werner Erhard -- about the contents of his "black box" -- they would unconsciously (silently) assume he must, of course be right about what he claimed.

IMO Werner's black box was merely Marshall McLuen's famous: "The Media Is The Message". Though everyone seemed to miss it. Yep. It was his IMO put-on tone and public image of credible authority and the *shaming*, sham manipulation of -- "(You're all to behaviorally unevolved to understand why this works -- and I am right. Just get off asking why I'm right and -- GET IT.)"

In short -- I say again to you, with all due respect, fingerprince -- horse shit. You have no credibility in your unsupported statements of Reality about Lazaris' alleged ..reality -- until you reasonably support them.

It could be that you were simply: psychologically weakened by the Lazaris group into buying a stack of tapes (3) higher than mine.

Ah! But I, Steve Brooks, esq. attended Lazaris seminars chronologically *longer* than you! :0) )

Ah HA!

Nah nah.

An intellegent, non-manipulative exchange of ideas about Lazaris is a healthy thing fingerprince -- that is if you have the social backbone and internally sourced self-esteem to enguage in one.

Your first post tells me that you may not.

Steve

You wrote:

quote:

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Peny told me once that Lazaris had told her a mutual friend of ours was all a “sham”.

---

Wonder why Lazaris didn't tell the rest of us that Peny was a sham.

You wrote:

quote:

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I do know and think it is interesting to note that Peny and Jach quickly and secretly befriended this person again shortly after the forum controversy. All the nasty things they said about him I guess were now unimportant.

---

This is the person we called "Steve" in the Forum Storm section of Lazaris: Friend or Fraud, the object of Peny's obsession who was exempt from criticism by the Gang even when he verbally abused people. The person whose character was assassinated in a series of threads, after he publicly dissed Peny. In these threads, anyone who had anything good to say about "Steve" was ordered to "get into their adult" and told that they had a codependent relationship with "Steve".

"Steve" has been in contact with Jach and Peny ever since. "Steve" told me this on the phone a few days ago, just prior to telling me to "go F*** myself" and hanging up.

This is a person who had regular gossip sessions with Peny about the people posting in the Forum. Peny and the Gang manipulated, demanded and shamed people into rejecting "Steve". Then Peny and Jach went on to continue their relationship with him. This is fact, not speculation. How does that make people feel who poured out their hearts in that shameful series of threads, who had their emotions manipulated by these monsters?

Did Lazaris really tell Peny that stuff about "Steve"? Certainly not if Lazaris isn't real. "Lazaris" also told someone - in public - that her mother was dangerous and she should distance herself from her mother. This was after the mother was thrashed in the Forum for not towing the party line vis-a-vis "Steve" and Katie and me. So "Lazaris" just happens to agree with Jach and Peny's warped perspective. This incident is convincing evidence to me that the whole thing is a sham. And it demonstrates why it's so dangerous to believe in it. The bastards tried to break up a family for their own self-aggrandizement.

Cheers, Ted

As to Nightmare, Mediocrity, or Dream --

Lazaris promotes himself as -- at the *very* least -- a HIGHLY qualified spiritual teacher and friend to lead us into the Dream, yes?

Look what happened to the students that he taught -- the very longest about how to achieve this "Dream" reality.

That, IMO -- is what you call *classic* apocolyptic cult mind control and 'crazy making' manipulation --

IMO, implicit: "(DON'T look at the *Leaders* of the Lazaris group to measure the value of it's teachings -- look at E_V_E_R_Y_T_H_I_N_G *outside* your personal life as a measure of YOUR personal success or failure -- in achieving *life in the Dream reality*!)"

&:

IMO implicit: "(If Jach, Peny, and Michaell are creating: idiotic, fascist, criminal, far-right-wing whacko, totally failing socially, suicidal nightmare personal realities -- THAT is ONLY a message about YOUR failure in achieving the Dream, fingerprince!)"

I prescribe: three -- smiling, dead, previously desperately suicidal chocolate rabbits for you. Bite their balls off and look in the mirror.

This shall be known as: The Tiny, Chocolate Rabbit Bitsey Balls Mirror Technique.

Now wake up?

Steve

I really don't think Fingerprince is trying to manipulate anyone. I found his/her posts to be sincere and heartfelt. Just my opinion.

Your latest post leaves me with many questions, and offers much food for thought, as your posts always do...

Never having been one of the inner circle, nor an active member of the Forum, much has been revealed on this site about "behind the scenes" goings on in Orlando.

One bit I'm interested to understand better is that I was told: "Lazaris never intervenes" (how clean and easy), but this seems to have been tossed out the window when it comes to P. getting in depth analysis of persone-non-grata.!

How overwhelmingly wicked for her to be able to hold that over anyone.!! "L. tol' me you're a sham", therfore it's beyond question.

well then, it answers alot to see this person was later befriended...

I have also thought quite a bit about all the quotes, as well as the scientific knowledge used by Jach and L. to come from these people who didn't seem at all well-read.

This oroginally gave rise to my strongly held belief that con:sin is a group of fulltime behind the scenes "prep persons"
they keep the machine going, gleaning tips techniques, teachings the world over,...
scouring resources, it seems pretty necessary to prop up the followers ideas of them as special, "so much more wise than I"....etc.

It was the "clothing", music, "art",and crystals merchandise that got me looking sideways as well. Somehow their tacky tacky taste in "music", and that stuff they called "art" and the clothing (puleeze)! (let's remember to BEEE Spiritual, you need to LOOK spiritual:wear MY uniform.)

I could not reconciled that....

Your point about the Faustian aggreement made between L. and whomever is very interesting.
I gave alot of thought after reading parts of the Shirley Mc Laine book, Shirley seemed to have this Irish entity at her beck n' call because of some sort of past relationship.
Back when I couldn't think that L. had never been anything but a fake, I did think that it could have been some huge evil farce being played out...... Peny the megalo-maniac L. the being owed her something. He agrees to help by doling out just enuf truth to keep lotsa peepull coming back for more..
I won't bore you with the rest...I have since given up on thinking L. was, or is anything other than a group effort fraud.

Thanks for being your provocative self,

Audrey

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade:
When I first encountered "Lazaris" I did not want a guru, but I wanted a "spiritual" connection and valid information.

Hi, Jade.

Me, too. In fact, the previous two years, around 1979 -1982, I was participating in other Human Consciousness-type things. When friends got active with Muktananda I drew a line and said "not me." I didn't want a guru. When friends talked about channels or Ouija boards, etc., I said "not me." I didn't want to be ungrounded.

Which is why for me it was a surprise to be hooked by Lazaris, first from a second party for a couple of months at "meetings" during which he pretended to be the originator of the material. Next, after a few months of great wisdom, I got my first tapes, which were the "Negative Ego" tapes. Having come from a psychology background, as I mentioned at the start of this topic, I found the tapes profound. Nothing my years of study had ever come close to tying together loose ends as those 3 hours of tapes did.

Since I didn't know that this was a channeled entity and I never saw a photograph nor had I heard any other voices (i.e., Jach,) I was convinced this was a wise man from India educated extremely highly, probably at Oxford.

I cannot begin to tell you how shocked and upset I was when, perhaps 3-4 months after first listening to several tape sets, I was told that this information came from a channeled entity. ...not what I wanted to hear. It took me 2-3 years to accept it, and around ten more to finally convince me. ...which takes me to a point around 7 years ago.

[QUOTE]The moment any of us paused to long to say "What does Lazaris say about such and such" and left it there, not processing our own thoughts and feelings was the initial moment of corruption.

True enough, I believe. I'm not sure about corruption, though. In my vocabulary I would prefer to call it "growth" or "maturing." At least for me, I was immediately intrigued, then I became trusting, even almost blindly, in some cases, and finally I was able to balance information to determine whether or not it was valid for me.

[QUOTE]
And no one connected with C:S, including "Lazaris" exhibited the openess, joy, fulfillment, and vulnerability that was on the agenda. Though L could be humorous, these other qualities were absent.

I can clearly remember my first workshops, when Jach had only been channeling for about 8 years or so, publically about <3 years. Lazaris always seemed gentle and humorous. In fact, I always thought he could do "stand up" comedy.

Jach, on the other hand, seemed somewhat sullen or pre-occupied, smoking his cigarettes during breaks, away from the crowds. To criticize these people for not being jovial, etc., seems harsh to me. In fact, had they all acted in that fashion I would have thought they were brain-washed, drugged or full of denials. Seriously. I used to do some of those nude-type things you've heard about (or maybe participated in yourselves.) We'd all get pumped up (so-to-speak ;-} ) and hold hands or whatever and be on top of the world. Later on, when reality set back in, I realized that it was all only ego, artificially induced. I don't think I have ever witnessed any group that was truly, honestly "at one," loving, joyful, etc. So, to me, it was refreshing to see people that seemed to be honestly human.

It was only many years later that I acquired new data to integrate. They changed, I think, as I changed, though not in ways I would have predicted.

[/B]

---

As it is -- you are playing a manipulative game that Werner Erhard was a master at: ..."
"...
In short -- I say again to you, with all due respect fingerprince -- Bull Shit! You have no credibility in your unsupported statements of Reality about Lazaris' alleged ..reality -- until you support them."

That's moderately true, Steve. I apologize for taking shortcuts.

You know, one of the things I really dislike about BBS's or "chatrooms" or message boards, etc. is the huge amount of time it takes to say things. I hated the Compuserve thing wherein 38 people seemingly "attack," and one feels compelled to defend or at least, respond, to each and every one. That sort of thing wears me out, I'm afraid. I really don't want to do that, and I won't. I don't have enough lifetime nor interest for that.

I will, however, foment a bit of response to you. Pretend we're playing chess and you and I are constantly moving into "check" positions. That's what's going to happen here. I will not be goaded into saying things I don't wish to share. I say enough, at least from my perspective, to say that I HAVE information. Teasing or manipulative it may be.

Why bother, then? Because there is plenty of ammunition in here arguing against Lazaris . There are people in here, presumably, who just visit or lurk and maybe have some curiosity. They would leave with the impression that all the anti- information must be correct, and is unabated or unchallenged. There are, however, a few people who state that there are, indeed, some unaccountable deeds of wonder that have transpired. Well, then, what are they? Sadly, as manipulative as it many come across, it's too vulnerable for me to discuss. Again, some of it was extraordinarily personal and I refuse to throw it out to the "masses," and the rest of it is not worth disclosing, at this time, because I know there will be a great deal to defend and I'm not willing to do that.

In short, I'm sorry but that's how it is. Perhaps, if things work out, I will provide things from time to time...I don't know.

Back in 1986 or so, I worked for DEC which had a somewhat progenitor of today's internet. I participated heavily, there, communicating almost daily for nearly five years with hundreds of people, most of whom lived in New England. I found myself, time and again, defending anything and everything about Lazaris, who was mostly unheard of at the time. In that forum I learned about this magician named "the great Randini," (Randi-something, I've forgotten.) He did a tv show a decade ago with Bill "Eddie's Father?" debunking "NEWAGE" [which rhymes with sewage, in his show] stuff. These debunkers work relentlessly to disprove anything and everything "metaphysical." There are many people out there who act similarly, constantly disproving anything and everything, believing in only the "double-blind, scientifically tested" stuff.

To put it bluntly, Steve, I don't feel like feeding that particular mill. I don't have the energy to defend what I may offer and I don't want it belittled or diminished. So, call it a manipulation if you wish.

Ah! But I, Stephen Brooks, esq. attended Lazaris seminars chronologically *longer* than you! :0) )

Ah HA!

Congratulations! We all have our pride in something.

An intellegent, non-manipulative exchange of ideas about Lazaris is a healthy thing fingerprince -- that is if you have the social backbone and strength of self-esteem to enguage in one.

Your first post tells me that you may not.
______________________________________________
Okay, you win.
_____________________________________________
And -- that's ok.
_____________________________________________

I'm really glad to hear that.

P.S. This voice is a male voice.

quote:

---

Originally posted by TedV:
Hi Steve,

I really don't think Fingerprince is trying to manipulate anyone. I found his/her posts to be sincere and heartfelt. Just my opinion.

Cheers, Ted

---

Hi, Ted.

quote:

---

To criticize these people for not
being jovial, etc., seems harsh to me.

---

How about just open and happy. Forget jovial, and the goofy, I love everyone New Age stuff.
The guardedness, aloofness and control that color information about the deaths of Peny and Michaell are just a more extreme continuation of a vibe, if you will, that employees and those very closely connected with C:S have always exhibited. If you try to justify this, you miss my point.

Best ta ya,
Jade

I did not hear you supporting Concept Synergy, rather I heard you speak about the human factor that you saw there also.

I heard you stating that the material gave you much in your life and I respect that.

I also respect your choice to not share more about what the material has done for you until and if there is a time that is appropriate for you.

It often appears that people are asked to share their experiences and then those experiences appear to be belittled or the person himself is called on the line as to their maturity.

I also owe much spiritual growth to the Lazaris material and I know that it was to be part of my spiritual path to be a part of it for a while. As I stated in a previous post, I also knew when my Higher Self kicked me out of the "nest" - that it was time for me to continue on my own.

Whether Lazaris lifted this material from others, I am not totally sure, but in much of it there was much validity.

I can not see so many intelligent people completely duped and I will not invalidate the many wonderful experiences that many had nor will I invalidate the bad experiences that so many have had, including myself.

I do not see the Lazaris situation as totally black or totally white. For me it is definitely gray.

quote:

---

Never having been one of the inner circle, nor an active member of the Forum, much has been revealed on this site about "behind the scenes" goings on in Orlando.

---

I wasn't a member of their inner circle. I was friendly with Jach and Peny but had very little contact with the rest of those new age manchurian-candidates [the Orlando gang]

Once in a while I would get an email from Peny, respond to it and all of the sudden I would get 6 or so responses from members of the gang. That was pretty much my only contact with them.

Peny and some of her associates were in the habit of ccing and bccing every email they got that contained juicy stuff in it to each other.

Peny and co. had some kind of email ring, they had a few actually. One had to do with politics but since I was such a negative ego total pinko commie liberal they never sent me any of those.

The "email rings" I participated in or saw were about 3 or 4 in number and usually had to do with the disection of a forum member[s]. Sorry guys but thats the ugly truth of it.

There were many, many more of thes email exchanges that I never saw or had any participation in and lol, was probably the subject of a few of them myself.

quote:

---

One bit I'm interested to understand better is that I was told: "Lazaris never intervenes" (how clean and easy), but this seems to have been tossed out the window when it comes to P. getting in depth analysis of persone-non-grata.!

---

Wish I could help you understand that Aud, but I can't. Peny told me she had several conversations with Lazaris about this person. These conversations spanned the time that they were happily communicating.

To be fair, I think that Peny might say that Lazaris is a friend of hers and she can discuss people the way you do with friends.
Problem is the ethics in revealing what Lazaris said privately about his "friends"

quote:

---

I have also thought quite a bit about all the quotes, as well as the scientific knowledge used by Jach and L. to come from these people who didn't seem at all well-read.

This oroginally gave rise to my strongly held belief that con:sin is a group of fulltime behind the scenes "prep persons"
they keep the machine going, gleaning tips techniques, teachings the world over,...
scouring resources, it seems pretty necessary to prop up the followers ideas of them as special, "so much more wise than I"....etc.

---

I don't think so Audry, I think they are too lazy to do that much work. I am not being sarcastic but I just think they are too lazy. The other thing is much of this research would have to have been done prior to the internet, requiring so much more effort.

quote:

---

It was the "clothing", music, "art",and crystals merchandise that got me looking sideways as well. Somehow their tacky tacky taste in "music", and that stuff they called "art" and the clothing (puleeze)! (let's remember to BEEE Spiritual, you need to LOOK spiritual:wear MY uniform.)

---

That music was a crime wasn't it.

Cheers,

Jeremiah

I hope you didn't get the impression I thought you were being innapropriate by not sharing certain experiences.

I completely agree that some experiences are too private to share but knowing a person has had them in relation to the subject of discussion can illuminate it.

For me its enough to know you had experiences that are profound, the details are not for public scrutiny.

So please, share what you like.. your thoughts are welcome whatever you choose to talk about.

Cheers,

You write:

quote:

---

I really don't think Fingerprince is trying to manipulate anyone. I found his/her posts to be sincere and heartfelt. Just my opinion.

---

My sense is the same. To me, fingerprince appears to be following in the footsteps of a classic, pop psych., Werner Erhard-popularized authoritative stance -- however heartfelt and sincere -- to protect personal views and opinions about Jach's "Lazaris" act that, if put into open human conversation may quickly crack.

Just my strong sense.

Steve

You write:

quote:

---

You know, one of the things I really dislike about BBS's or "chatrooms" or message boards, etc. is the huge amount of time it takes to say things. I hated the Compuserve thing wherein 38 people seemingly "attack," and one feels compelled to defend or at least, respond, to each and every one. That sort of thing wears me out, I'm afraid. I really don't want to do that, and I won't. I don't have enough lifetime nor interest for that.

I will, however, foment a bit of response to you. Pretend we're playing chess and you and I are constantly moving into "check" positions. That's what's going to happen here.

---

No. That's a belief -- distinctly, as you say here -- based upon your previous BBS experience.

Lord! Katie will tell you -- when I first came on here I was wary as hell that this would be just another bloody ego slam fest al la Con:Sin's chat blood bath.

Over time, as I opened up -- I have found that not so.

I to used to believe that many of my *weird* experiences with Lazaris over many years of intensives, private and 'Life' readings -- made Jach beyond all reach of *possibly* faking it.

I now -- through the *social boundary respecting* discorse I have enguaged in on this site -- hold a vastly different opinion about Jach. I was never once attacked here for my views -- merely challenged with strong, grounded metaphysical logic.

Steve

If you do not think that Jach is a fraud due to the experiences that amazed you, then are you implying that you think L. is truly all they say they are????

I would like to know your stance on this?

I've watched this thread unfold, and have seen you allude to so much, yet you do not come right out and say very much. You stated in the beginning that you have been cemented as a friend and loyal admirer of L.
you just say that you decided you didn't like the "style" of (the group) I guess.

Does this mean that you are here to communicate with us to just dilly areound abit in your spare time? I thought I saw you mention that you have very little energy and even less time for such things.....

I've been very open on several threads, many of them are very vulnerable, and personal, even recently listing some of my "darker" motivations for having been attracted to L.

I have been doing quite alot of soul searching in my off times and I choose to openly share those things when I log on, even when they are wigglin'...cuz like Steve said I feel like this place is as safe as home base.....

This is not "truth or dare" yet I do like to see others here with the attitude to go where no man has gone b-4, given this site's purpose to help us work towards mental and psycological freedom, and through some very tenacious CULT belief systems together.

I choose to write yes, and show what I want, you obviously do not, and have been upfront in stating the whys and the wherefors. Yet, I don't want to feel like we are being messed with when you state that you don't want to toss pearls before swine, well that's not so nice is it now.????
If we are the swine, why participate here at all?

Then you go on to Steve about some t.v show which used to debunk anything newage, and there are those out there who want to stick to clinically proven methods etc.

Well, pardon me, but it should be PRETTY obvious that WE are not those types, we were once believers ourselves eh? AND many of us here are obviously still very New-agey... So I just don't get it anymore....

I read that bit in your response to Jeremiah regarding the descending quality of the L. material, then you say something about the "longevity 3 will only come when we are comfortable with 1,and 2." Firstly that was a pretty bad illustration choice, given the events of the past weeks.!!!hey... (obviously the TOP DOG didn't get Longevity anything!!) sorry I couldn't HELP myself!!

My point is....WHY use something from the L. material to make a point about the bad quality of the L. material.???WHY?? It felt to me like you were trying to make fools of the readers of that post.

There is just a funny feeling happening in the pit of my stomach when I read this thread now...can't put my finger on it exactly, but I do trust my instincts....

Audrey

If you do not think that Jach is a fraud due to the experiences that amazed you, then are you implying that you think L. is truly all they say they are????

I would like to know your stance on this?
_____________________________________________
Hi Audrey.

Sure, thanks for asking. I don't know about Jach, completely. I never got to feel comfortable with him, there was always a sense that I was somehow out-of-place or beneath him or something...I could psychoanalyze myself and guess that this could be a father projection of some sort (needing approval...never going to get it, etc.) But, until about four years ago, I thought it was only because he didn't really know me and had no interest. Then, there were two separate incidences, one where he called me at home for some (negative) clarification that he had information I could provide and the next was more of a set of events in the J&L room. He almost literally made my hair stand on end by creating a message box wherein he used many four letter words attacking me for what he took to be an attack on Peny, which had consisted of an email to her in that forum in which I had told her I didn't appreciate a particular betrayal of my confidence (a public posting containing less-than-public information about me, which wasn't the first time she had come after me. Once she said that no-one gets along well with enneagram eights, except maybe other eights, and at that time I was the only public eight.) I had spent some time writing it (I think I am capable of writing carefully,) and actually also expressed love for her in the same message so it was stunning to me that Jach would delete it. What fascinated me was that just a week or so before Jach had talked in the room about the 1st amendment, and how important it is to have freedom of speech. I sent him an email letting him know I was unhappy with his actions. He emailed back saying I owed Peny (and him) an apology. I never did, really, I just left saying that I was losing internet access (which was a convenient truth at that very moment.) There's more but that was the most serious to me. I have never spoken with him again, in any form, though he glared at me once or twice.

The behavior of the "pets" also upset and angered me plenty. That "swarming" thing they were doing was disgusting and too obviously protective for me to see anything but danger.

For me there was too much not right to ever really allow myself to participate again. You guys have already inumerated countless other stories; adding more stories is not really necessary, but is entertaining, isn't it?

As to being all they say they are: I think Jach has been deceptive about who he really is or who he became. You know, Lazaris, on many occasions, reminded us that "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." It's interesting, especially this past week, to remember how many times he pointed this out. I believe that the C:S core succumbed to misused power. It must be really tempting to give in to power such as they have been granted. I wonder how many of us might have done similarly. Someone pointed out Jane Robert's integrity yet we have to remember that her followers were few and she wasn't particularly warm and fuzzy, either. She also died fairly young. Ramtha is another...and forget the regular world!!!

Anyway, what about Lazaris? As I attempted to point out, I was a skeptic, and a very strong one. In my last private consultation, also four years ago, Lazaris mentions my skepticism. Remember that that would be about 15 years after meeting him. In that same consultation he talks to me, at my request, about an event that happened more than a year earlier. It was that monumental event to which I've alluded in my initial posting. It was an event I am not prepared to share with this public gathering. I know only a handful participate in here yet many-fold have their eyes here, too. I do not wish to share that event with unseen eyes in any permanent fashion, as this would/could be.

That event convinced me that Lazaris was more than human. It was the proverbial final straw or 100th monkey. There had been literally dozens of other signs or potential signs, none of which quite made it for me until that ONE. It was just too powerful for me to consider any other possibility. I know this upsets those who work to discredit Lazaris and I don't think I can stop that. But, I have to honor myself and I do. As Katie or someone said, I could consider that I did it to myself. Well, in a circuitous way, I could. But to the extent that there are others in my reality beyond myself, then, NO, that isn't the case.

So, Audrey, yes, I believe Lazaris is who/what he has said he is. The rest of it I don't quite understand, though I have seen some really wonderful conjectures in here, some new, some which augment, some which agree with views and thoughts I have.

____________________________________________

Does this mean that you are here to communicate with us to just dilly areound abit in your spare time? I thought I saw you mention that you have very little energy and even less time for such things.....
____________________________________________
I dilly as much as I can. Unfortunately, I don't seem to have as much dillying time as I'd like. I am alone, live alone, somewhat remotely, work 40 hours + 5 more for commuting, do occasional massages, have what-are-to-me art projects, and am single-handedly building a house from scratch, a project I started 25 years ago, which is now perhaps 30% complete. So how much time do you think I have left over? Have you noticed the hour of my postings? I get up around 6:30 everyday. It is now, as the last few nights, near midnight. I hope this isn't martyr speaking but I do discredit your imaginings, I hope.
___________________________________________

I've been very open on several threads, many of them are very vulnerable, and personal, even recently listing some of my "darker" motivations for having been attracted to L.
___________________________________________
I probably have some of that, too, though I won't "share" for the sake of everyone else. As to dark or light, that's entirely for you to judge for yourself, as it is for each of us about our own stuff.
_____________________________________________

I choose to write yes, and show what I want, you obviously do not, and have been upfront in stating the whys and the wherefors. Yet, I don't want to feel like we are being messed with when you state that you don't want to toss pearls before swine, well that's not so nice is it now.????
If we are the swine, why participate here at all?
_____________________________________________
I'm sorry I riled you up. It isn't that I think "you all" are swine, it's that I will only share with the world what I want to. I have been in computers since 1967 (all but about one year) and I hope you aren't being naive to believe that this space is only seen by the signatures that are visible. There are people in every country on Earth with access to this information, with every belief and religion and culture, etc. that we can imagine. You are sadly mistaken if you think I will toss out one of the most significant events of my life to that kind of potential. So, Audrey, it really isn't just the people who addressed me that I'm avoiding or evading. As I believe I mentioned earlier, if we were all in a room together, I might be more inclined to offer certain more things.
____________________________________________

I read that bit in your response to Jeremiah regarding the descending quality of the L. material, then you say something about the "longevity 3 will only come when we are comfortable with 1,and 2." Firstly that was a pretty bad illustration choice, given the events of the past weeks.!!!hey... (obviously the TOP DOG didn't get Longevity anything!!) sorry I couldn't HELP myself!!

My point is....WHY use something from the L. material to make a point about the bad quality of the L. material.???WHY?? It felt to me like you were trying to make fools of the readers of that post.
_____________________________________________
Gee, Audrey. I'm not superhuman. I'm not always going to say things that are profound!
That came to mind, is all...Lazaris once said that he had told us all, some time before, about something (I can't remember what, right now) and that it absolutely sailed over our heads. We didn't get it at all, not one person. [I know, you *could* say he made that up.]

Everyone is different. Why shouldn't that apply to some "being?" If we don't understand others, why should that stop at Lazaris? I don't have the answers, I can assure you. I have as many questions and puzzles as you do, I'm sure.

I'm not attacking anyone in here at all. Not even a little bit. I may have been snippy up there some where but I'm not out to make anyone a fool. They are quite capable of doing that for themselves, if they choose.
___________________________________________

There is just a funny feeling happening in the pit of my stomach when I read this thread now...can't put my finger on it exactly, but I do trust my instincts....
____________________________________________

Maybe I make you hungry. ;-) (don't eat your fingers, please?!) ;-)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade:
Hi Fingerprince,

If you try to justify this, you miss my point.

Best ta ya,
Jade

---

I hope my previous reply to Audrey responds to this a bit...

Donna,

I think your message is a very pleasant read for me. Thank you for that which you share. I agree with virtually all of it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jeremiah:
Hey Fingerprince,

So please, share what you like.. your thoughts are welcome whatever you choose to talk about.

Cheers,

Jeremiah

---

I'm running out of steam for the day...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steve Brooks:
Hi fingerprince,

Welcome fingerprince.

Steve
sb6@altavista.com

[This message has been edited by Steve Brooks (edited 05-17-2001).]

---

It would appear that you and I could agree on a great deal about the C:S organizations. I'm not sure our emotions are equally charged but many of our awarenesses might be.

You wrote:

quote:

---

...You know, Lazaris, on many occasions, reminded us that "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts
absolutely." It's interesting, especially this past week, to remember how many times he pointed this out...

---

Actually, in my 12 years with Lazaris, I don't ever remember them saying that. I'm not saying they didn't, but I don't remember it. Whether they said it or not, though, I don't believe it.

If power corrupts, then why would we want it? Is it personal power that corrupts, or power over others? I think, if anything, the opposite is true - powerlessness corrupts. When someone feels powerless, they have much more motivation to be corrupt. A truly powerful person (i.e. personal power) would have no need to turn to corruption.

Also, if Lazaris believed this, then why did they feed into the "power" of Peny? Why haven't they taken responsibility for their role in creating this corruption? What did they expect to happen when they declared Peny to be the brightest light in the universe?

You wrote:

quote:

---

It must be really tempting to give in to power such as they have been granted. I wonder how many of us might have done similarly...

---

I don't know what I would do if some fake entity declared me to be the center of the universe, but I hope I would we wise and centered enough to tell them to get lost. Come to think of it, I think some entity has done that on occasion - my ego, when it's out of balance. Mind you, my ego hasn't been as effective at convincing others . And I suppose it has corrupted me temporarily at times. My choice though.

I do know that there have been some that were not corrupted by power, most notably, Paramahansa Yogananda. Though his guru did take responsibility to help Yogananda reign in his ego when it tried to take over. I see no evidence that "Lazaris" ever took similar responsibility with Peny.

quote:

---

It must be really tempting to give in to power such as they have been granted. I wonder how many of us might have done similarly.

---

We gave away our power to C:S and L -- "granted" is a nice word for that. The reasons why are thoroughly discussed in past threads, especially those related to cult tactics. And we had our own hidden agendas that opened us to fall for the seduction and manipulation. Like my own, which was to wish for an accessible source of spiritual information in my physical reality. But there is no excusing the The Orb & Co. abuse by inferring that any of us might have similarly misused power. The hub of it all was a megalomaniac, and the result reflects the calculated insatiable cravings of her narcissim.

quote:

---

Someone pointed out Jane Robert's integrity yet we have to remember that her followers were few and she wasn't particularly warm and fuzzy, either. She also died fairly young.

---

I believe Jane Roberts had/has more readers than "Lazaris" has followers. I've met plenty of people who have read or are familiar with her, who never even heard of "Lazaris." The issue isn't about "warm and fuzzy", Peny was manipulative, exploitative, cruel, destructive, controlling and secretive.
Jane was honest, open, vulnerable. She wrote extensively about her own personal mystical experiences (in the first person), and her physical problems were also open for all to read about.

Furthermore, Seth was not promoted as an intermediary spiritpriest. If the Roberts had sought self aggrandizement, money and power they certainly were in a position to go for it. But they didn't. No mass produced tapes, no seminars, no galleries, calendars, cystals, mugs or celebraties.

The details of Jane's last months and death were published by her husband Rob, who fortunately chose to live on.

It isn't necessary to separately compartmentalize Seth and the Roberts, the way one must do with "Lazaris" and C:S, if one continues to hold a belief in the validity of L. There is a continuity of integrity with message and messenger.

I too had a magical experience that I held onto as support for my belief in L., telling myself that L really was what he claimed to be. But at this point it doen't hold sway against the disposal dump sized amount of contrary information. I just figure that's how I happened to let myself have that particular experience. Just like getting an uncannily accurate astology reading in the morning paper. But most days, it's pretty irrelevant.

Jade

quote:

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I believe Jane Roberts had/has more readers than "Lazaris" has followers. I've met plenty of people who have read or are familiar with her, who never even heard of "Lazaris." The issue isn't about "warm and fuzzy", Peny was manipulativeexploitative, cruel, destructive, controlling and secretive.
Jane was honest, open, vulnerable. She wrote extensively about her own personal mystical experiences (in the first person), and her physical problems were also open for all to read about.

Furthermore, Seth was not promoted as an intermediary spiritpriest. If the Roberts had sought self aggrandizement, money and power they certainly were in a position to go for it. But they didn't. No mass produced tapes, no seminars, no galleries, calendars, cystals, mugs or celebraties.

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Well said and thanks for saying it.

Jane was the real deal. She was human and she knew it and she made no apologies for being less than perfect.

She certainly didn't shrink from sharing her private struggles from her readers and had no interest in bullshit.

She had great concern about "followers" developing around the Seth material and did everything possible to dissuade those so inclined from worshiping her or elevating her to special status.

She simply didn't want the pressure AND her sense of humor was too keen for that self important crap that Peny pulled for years.

Cheers,

I just have one thing to say--I like the music. I still enjoy listening to Lemuria.

Thanks for your response to my post. I appreciate that you must be bizzeee creating a house from scratch!! that's downright amazing!! wiring and everything??? sheesh

Wow, my mind's been reeling with the thought of putting a few skylights in my roof this fall, and with two people helping.!
I may be posting to ask you for advice later!! heh heh.!!!

I was interested to know one thing about those private consultations you had with L.

When I requested (last year) by phone the "appplication" I guess, the person told me there was a 6 month to 3 year waiting period.
This made NO sense to me!!!
IF a line is 20 people long , then you proceed to the end of that line right, then you can say that the consultations are done every say 1 per month then the wait is 20 months, how would that wai keep changing??

So, after I'd run that around in my head quickly, I said: Wait a minute, you're telling me that the end of the line changes, how can this be??? or something of the sort.
What I got was an ICEY cold silence, then a slow robotic repetition of exactly what she'd told me minutes before: "the wait will be between 6 months to 3 years."
THEN she added that "some persons never get a private consultation at all"

Anyway, I never received said "application" in the post.
I'm just curious, you are the first person I've ever communicatied with who actually got a consultation, and it sounds like you had a few?? my question is: how long was that wait???

But a friend who attended every L event, sometimes more than once in different cities, bought much more from their gallery, and had even more tapes than I had, was never given an appointment (at least not since I have talked with her in early 1997).

Also after my forum "barbeque" in summer of 1997, I continued to sell my jewelry through Isis Rising until my 5 year consignment contract expired in early March (told them I didn't want to renew after I found this site earlier this year). But, last Nov. or Dec., when I mentioned that I might attend a seminar (haven't been for years, since zee bbq) I got the cold silence on the other end of the phone.

Go figure.

Jade

Two cents more. Recently talked with a gallery group about selling my work, the mark up far exceeded Isis Rising's. But their crystals tend to be a lot higher than the market.

Thanks for the info on the consultations.. sounds very odd.
so you mean to say you DID recieve Both consultations?? you asked for 2, I'm trying to figure this out, or did they first tell you 1 1/2 yr. then changed it to 3 yrs..//

Well, I guess that doesn't matter SO much anymore eh!!
How much were they charging for those anyway? just curious.....

Wow, you actually had business dealings with them...interesting....I hope you got paid well.

You didn't make that clothing did you.??
I always thought it was so interesting with con;sin, and other cults I've either seen or been involved with, the memebers who want to get in real tight with the top person(s) will inevitably begin wearing the "Uniform".
gotta LOOK speeRICHuall..!!!

Katie and I spoke once about the wig thing, how hot and humid it is in FL. and here are these poor women (presumably NOT BALDING) who were wearing "big hair" WIGS.!!!! Cuz Peny did. We human Beeings are strange creatures eh!!! Seems we are Hardwired to be so gregarious, and follow-the-leader etc.
I'm sure Peny didn't force them to don headresses, it's just like the vernacular in a cult as well.

Scientology created a new language of sorts, yes it's english but there is the language of the "conoscienti", it becomes very obvious very quickly who knows the material, who has taken the high level courses, cuz they know the language.

I'm right now trying hard to surgically remove a few words (hubris for one) from my repitoire, just cuz it reminds me too much of Jach.

Anyway, I didn't mean to ramble so...decaf...