Like you I have really enjoyed many of the interchanges I have found here.

I have found a lot of interesting food for thought in this forum. I still do believe in Lazaris. But what I have started considering is that perhaps Jach is not as clear a channel as I had thought. This thought occured the me in the last year as Lazaris seemingly pushed crystals at the back table as being more involved. And several other points that have been brought up here. Having said that I have seen where I have given way too much power to the group around CS and how easy it is for everyone to get wrapped up in that "cult" like circus.

So now I sit and watch and continue to assess all of this. Whether people agree with everything in this site, it is a great opportunity to discern and if you believe in Lazaris, redefine and get clear on that relationship and if you don't it certainly validates that as well.

Welcome! As you've probably noticed, you don't need to know how to do links. A link is automatically generated when you enter a valid URL.

Thanks for posting the link. Hope to see you again.

You ask what is the deal with fingerprince, and I can't speak for all but only myself.

Actually, I can't even speak directly about fingerprince right in the moment, because I don't have time to go back and read all his posts.

I can speak to controversy here, and give you my thoughts on why some see that others are having people "get in their face" or give them a hard time.

A lot of people come here with a very lecturing tone, telling us all about the wonders of Lazaris, and how we should all think and behave, basically telling us that we are wrong in our thinking and behavior.

I have no problem with anyone coming here, as you have, stating that they are a believer in Lazaris. That is fine.

There is a difference though, in stating a belief, and having someone try to convince you of it, especially through the use of implications and assertions which they are not willing to back up through discussion.

It's as though some come here just expecting us to change our thinking cause they say we should. When pressed, these people always scream that they are getting beaten up, and always eventually leave, never having answered any of the serious questions, or having owned the fact that they arrived here full of judgements and zeal to "fix" us all.

I don't mean this as an offense to you, but the one thing all of these posters have in common is the inability to explain away the inconsistancies surrounding Lazaris.

The statement is always, I don't know what is going on, why Lazaris allows the abuse that goes on, maybe it's this, or maybe it's that, but who knows, all I know is that Lazaris is real and you shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

No one to date has denied the abuse, but many have tried to ignore it, explain it away, or tell us that we created it ourselves so we have no reason to be upset.

I have to tell you Helena, that just all feels like a lot more abuse to me.

I really don't like being lectured and tinkered with by someone who can't or won't bother to take a thought and follow it through to some reasonable conclusion.

"Because I say so" just isn't enough. "I"ve had great miracles and created great successes" isn't enough.

We are all sick to death of spiritual authority here, and when someone comes along all full of it, they are going to be challenged. Especially when their defense of Lazaris goes in direct contradiction even to the Lazaris material itself. Most of us here do have a very good understanding of those materials, to date, a much better one than those who support and defend them.

I think that's the fair and responsible thing to do, especially within a group who is committed to finding the Truth.

All I can say to those who have it in their minds to teach us, fix us, help us, judge us, change our minds is to ask, by what authority?

I will also say in advance, no thank you, and please don't bother.

If you come here with the thought that you are a mini-guru, a defender of Con:Sin, or full of self-righteous zeal to blow us all out of the water with your wisdom, be prepared.

We aren't stupid here, and we really don't take kindly to bullies. We also, most of us, know passive aggressive, manipulative, dismissive, and demeaning behavior when we see it.

It is most unpleasant to be constantly addressing these issues, with that I will agree.

I think that most of us believe that they do need to be addressed however. Sometimes silence is possibly the best response, I think I'm going to give that a try for awhile myself.

This site is committed to allowing for free speech, and that includes those who notice and object to bad behavior.

Thanks for asking, Helena, I hope this clears up this issue for you.

I can't judge if Lazaris is a total scam, I can just say that it doesn't compute. And I'm very open to hearing your experiences which support the opinion that he is a scam. It is interesting and maybe true. Still I think that everybody is entitled to an opinion, right or wrong, and if that makes someone angry, it may be a reaction that this person is already carrying within, from all the abuse he/her suffered within the system, and not the opinionated person's fault. I wrote my previous post because I think that some of the reactions are out of proportions to the posts they are reacting to.
Not that it's not understandable that people feel deeply betrayed and angry.

The reason why it only took me a few encounters with Con.Sin. to drop it completely, is because I already spent years involved with another group where I went through the whole thing about feeling betrayed, being angry, the emptiness that followed leaving the group etc. And so I simply recognized the blueprint. It was disappointing because I really expected the people around Lazaris to be successful individuals, because of the beautiful material. I had not imagined that they would be cult members of the worst kind...
It was discouraging, absolutely.

But successful individuals, could be what we all are finding now, in this forum.

To me, successful individuals are people who speak up for themselves, they don't take anybody's crap no more, they speak honestly about who they are and what they think.

I feel that all these things are happening here, and I define it as success. Many of us here are on a journey, becoming individuals, and we are thrashing all that which made us into fearful followers. If that isn't successful then I don't know what is. And I'm happy that this place exists, it has healed something inside of me which was wounded from my past experience with Peny and the gang, and also my experiences further back with the other group of people.
Now I just feel empowered.

My take on this communication question you raise is pretty simply that people are just unique in their perceptions and react accordingly.

We all have different boundaries and are equally unique in our willingness to be flexible with those boundaries.

One could argue ad infinitum the motives of a person and that really isn't possible or appropriate, imo as it eventually seems to lead to some form of psychological blackmail.

What you can do is react to behaviour and that we each do uniquely according to our own boundaries and perceptions.

We don't have to agree or see the same thing the same way.. in fact it is almost gaurenteed that we will not.

My take on the particular issue that you raised is that someone came in here with a long list of attention getting agendas and manipulative tactics that were frustrating to say the least.

Lazaris may not wear a turban, but others have been attempting to affix one atop their heads, imo . Even to the extent of giving themselves lofty names like Guru and Prince..

But that is the way I see it, I responded to it and I am done with it.

I agree with Katie that at a certain point silence is the best remedy.

Cheers,

Jeremiah

quote:

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Still I think that everybody is entitled to an opinion, right or wrong, and if that makes someone angry, it may be a reaction that this person is already carrying within, from all the abuse he/her suffered within the system, and not the opinionated person's fault. I wrote my previous post because I think that some of the reactions are out of proportions to the posts they are reacting to.
Not that it's not understandable that people feel deeply betrayed and angry.

---

I was hoping to explain that for the most part, what people get into arguments about here are not opinions but behaviors. There is a difference.

I'm sure you've already noticed that no one is jumping down your throat or giving you a hard time because you have expressed your belief in Lazaris.

No one is more supportive of people freely expressing their opinions here than me and Ted.

I honestly do not recall anyone here getting angry about anyone expressing a belief in Lazaris. There have been a lot of angry posts written by believers though with the anger aimed at us cynics, critics, and non-believers.

I don't know, it seems to me that there is some kind of blindness here to the kind of behavior that has sparked controversy and anger here, and some big judgement about those, including myself who speak up about it.

I think I outlined pretty well what those behaviors are, but you continue to regard them as opinions. Well, what can I say?

I guess we all have to act from our own sense of integrity, and I'm personally tired of having the discussion about how some people are abused here because of their expressed belief in Lazaris.

That just simply is not so.

I would agree though, that there have been abusive posts written here.

quote:

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And I'm very open to hearing your experiences which support the opinion that he is a scam.

---

Well, you have definitely come to the right place!

I'm just as interested in hearing of your experiences which support the opinion that Lazaris is real, loving, and helpful.

You say that you are feeling empowered, and that's always a good thing to hear! I think that's something we can all celebrate.

Maybe there have been posts that I haven't seen yet?
I have been refferring to the ones I've read in this thread.

Anyway, I'd love to discuss more and hear all sides of the matters that are discussed here.

I just found this site last night; recommended by a friend after we heard about Peny's death. I read a couple hours worth; went through a some proccessing, cried today with another friend - especially about
Michael's death - which somewhat surprised me, although my mother committed suicide somewhat passively (and I mostly agree that all deaths are suicide).

But then I let it go fairly easily and have gone on to have a really good day, as I've had a lot of practice with grieving and am getting pretty good at it!

Anyway Katie, I really like what you said here about manipulating and trying to dominate people:

"[A lot of people come here with a very lecturing tone, telling us all about the wonders of Lazaris, and how we should all think and behave, basically telling
us that we are wrong in our thinking and behavior.

I have no problem with anyone coming here, as you have, stating that they are a believer in Lazaris. That is fine.

There is a difference though, in stating a belief, and having someone try to convince you of it, especially through the use of implications and assertions which they are not willing to back up through discussion.

It's as though some come here just expecting us to change our thinking cause they say we should. When pressed, these people always scream that they are getting beaten up, and always eventually leave, never having answered any of the serious questions, or having owned the fact that they arrived here full of judgements and zeal to "fix" us all.

All I can say to those who have it in their minds to teach us, fix us, help us, judge us, change our minds is to ask, by what authority?

I will also say in advance, no thank you, and please don't bother.

If you come here with the thought that you are a mini-guru, a defender of Con:Sin, or full of self-righteous zeal to blow us all out of the water with your wisdom, be prepared.

We aren't stupid here, and we really don't take kindly
to bullies. We also, most of us, know passive aggressive, manipulative, dismissive, and demeaning behavior when we see it.

This site is committed to allowing for free speech, and that includes those who notice and object to bad behavior.]"

That was a long qoute, but I think you say really well what causes so many problems, and I have also been guilty of.

Like a lot of you here I understand, I too was kicked out of the Forum! Looking back on it I consider it quite an accomplishment, a turning point in my growth, and friendship with Lazaris, and pretty funny too ........

In the years since, I came to see at least some of my part - my arrogance, my need for outside validation and approval, my competing for Lazaris' love, and my jealousy of others getting it too, my desire to control, and of course my passion at the time for self pity through martyrhood - with my joy for being punished and punishing!

I also came to see that I was correct in my assesment of others being not too loving, and that I had allowed it, but that I'm getting better at not allowing it so
much anymore.

Although I see lots of paradoxes, and examples of multiple truths, I've never really noticed inconsistancies in Lazaris - except when I'm in self pity and conjuring up reasons to blame and punish, and for me to nobilise my desire to quit too - which is
another reason maybe that especially Michael's death affected me. My first response to real difficulty has most always been the raging "to just get the fuck out
of here!"

But back to Lazaris - I also always wondered what the heck they see in Peny. But it just occured to me that as I've heard them say, they choose who they want to be intimate with, and it's not with everyone. I've also heard them say how when you are loving more than looking to be loved, you can't pick the wrong person! And for my part in reality creation and allowing this,
their loving Peny demonstrates to me, that if it's posible to love here so much (a great challenge in my opinion), then it really is possible for me to love whoever I (carefully) and honestly chose to love.

So I see their relationship not as much about Lazaris' gushy poor choices; but as an example of how loving they can be. As for not choosing to love me in a similar way, I've come to know myself well enough to
see that that may have seduced me into a codependency and tempted me not to really do the work, but just to assume I must be really special already; and being a 4, I really don't need that ego stroke!

I remember Lazaris saying something like, "Guidance without boundaries can lead to codependency.............." (does anyone remember is there more?)

So I like keeping Lazaris as a clearly boundaried frind, and they have been a very good friend to me. I do believe in their honesty.

I also think Concept Synergy has some really damaging flaws. So I try to be greatful that at least they get the tapes to me, and I leave the rest for others to play around with, if they choose.

I really appreciate how this site offers some of what the forum lacked -

love and stuff, Robert - near Boston

Just wanted to express how I find it interesting how different our experiences of Lazaris seem to be. I believe and respect yours, and not to make it wrong at all - but just mysteriously different.

["Lazaris" also told someone - in public - that her mother was dangerous and she should distance herself from her mother.]

I've never heard Lazaris tell anyone what to do. Even thoguh at times I had wished they'd tell me what I should do! The thing I always remember them saying, is that they are'nt here to tell us what to do, but to help us make more conscious choices for ourselves - and to figure out what we want to do.

That's it - just a curious observation, Robert

The incident with Lazaris suggesting to the daughter to distance herself from her mother occurred fairly recently (a year ago?) in "Magic Time" at a seminar. It is written about extensively on this site. See "Love" "Magic" or "Manipulation"?

Yes they do say they're not here to tell us what to do and they tell us that they don't judge people. And wife-beaters tell their wives that they'll never do it again. And Bill Clinton feels our pain... Actions speak louder than words.

Welcome!

I'm glad our site has value for you, and even more glad that you decided to come in on a positive note, even though you are clearly very much a believer in the value of the Lazaris materials.

As you know, I am not, so we can leave it at that for the moment.

I'm wondering if you are interested in discussing the Lazaris materials in greater depth. You seem to be a pretty astute student, since you have the terminology and basic concepts pretty well represented in your post.

I'm not sure if that has any interest to you, and I'm not asking you to join a debating society here, (unless you want to),
but I would very much like for anyone who is interested to participate in a healthy exchange about our thoughts on specific Lazaris teachings.

I'm sure you know that should you choose participate, you will no doubt have your beliefs challenged, given that some of us will be explaining our own process of challenging the materials, and how many of them have failed to meet the challenge.

I keep believing that somewhere someday, we will have some posters who can allow for disagreement without feeling attacked or persecuted, or resort to doing that themselves when their beliefs are challenged.

If you don't want to, that's cool too. I'm just looking for someone who is familiar enough with the material to discuss it specifically, not even necessarily because I have a mission to tear it all down to the ground, but because it is part of my process of re-thinking my own beliefs, where they came from, and why I have accepted them as true.

I also think it would be a refreshing change from the endless assertions that the Lazaris materials and techniques work and are valuable, but with no specific reasons as to why other than "I'm a better person for them".

I must admit, I'm at the short end of my rope on that one, especially given all the time, energy, and caring that have gone into the posts from people explaining why we feel we are better off without the materials.

quote:

---

In the years since, I came to see at least some of my part - my arrogance, my need for outside validation and approval, my competing for Lazaris' love, and my jealousy of others getting it too, my desire to control, and of course my passion at the time for self pity through martyrhood - with my joy for being punished and punishing!

---

You have provided us with a pretty good outline for the reasons that people on message board play games and divert the conversation from a productive dialogue.

I'm not a fan of the use of the "loaded language", but I get your drift. I take you at your word that you engaged in those behaviors, although I feel the need to note that those were the pat reasons given for any disagreement expressed with the Forum Monsters, (my own loaded language ) or just because Peny was having a bad day, or heard that you were wearing the wrong clothes to a seminar so she decided to set her hounds loose on you.

I also note that never once in my recall was any Forum manager ever accused of such.
Amazing group, that!

Anyway, for the sake of agreement, I agree that those games don't help the cause, and that all of us are well-served to check our state of consciousness at the door before jumping in. I do hope that we never see anyone here judging the soul of another in that way though, especially not from some place of authority because of studying the Lazaris materials. At this point, nothing Lazaris has to say is proof of anything to me.

So, all that said, do you have interest in such a discussion?

Nice to meet you! I'll be responding you your post shortly.

Katie

Thanks for the welcome! Yes, really good and funny/not so funny things you point out. I'm really curious to check out that topic (I hate to say "thread").

In your first post you wrote:

quote:

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...I also always wondered what the heck they see in Peny... I've also heard them say how when you are loving more than looking to be loved, you can't pick the wrong person!

---

I tend to agree with the thought about not picking the wrong person if one looking to love more than be loved. But I do think that one's love could be pearls before swine. There certainly is danger in loving, even when one is not expecting love in return. It can be very painful to watch someone you love destroy themselves.

Thing is, Lazaris didn't just say that they love Peny. Who could argue with that? They went further and said that Peny didn't need to come back to the physical plane. They said she nearly saved Atlantis. They said she is a bright light that was noticable to them even in their "Higher Realms".

These statements encourage people to put much trust in Peny. Unlike unconditional love, misplaced trust is quite dangerous. It is this misplaced trust in Peny, IMO, that allowed her to run roughshod over Forum members. This is, to a large extent, a consequence of Lazaris' actions. A consequence for which I have seen them take no responsibility. Instead the onus is on us to figure out which demon - martyr, dark law, nemesis - is causing us to not "get it". By Lazaris' definition, that is shaming.

And this is if Lazaris is real. If not, there is a whole lot more shaming going on, which I shan't go into now as it has been covered on this site quite a bit.

I think I like this site - it seems to offer the freedom and honesty, the forum obviously lacked.

[As you know, I am not, so we can leave it at that for the moment.]

I think that's interesting and will respect and value your opinions and truth.

[I'm wondering if you are interested in discussing the Lazaris materials in greater depth.]

That would be fun - as long as I can be free to come and go at my own pace. Sometimes I'm really into writing, and there are periods when I'm not. In the forum I was attacked (fed on by wild animals) relentlessy for taking time to think, or just for lack of interest! Again it seems funny to me now that I allowed that and for it to intice or to bother me.

[You seem to be a pretty astute student, since you have the terminology and basic concepts pretty well represented in your post.]

Oh yes, stroke my ego! Just kidding. Yes thanks - I've been really into this stuff almost comically focused for about 15 years now. I really appreciate the name, the Cosmic Fool.

[I'm sure you know that should you choose participate, you will no doubt have your beliefs challenged, given that some of us will be explaining our own process of challenging the materials, and how many of them have failed to meet the challenge.]

Yes, that will be interesting. And maybe we can all be right, or correct. I enjoy paradox, mystery, and complexity. Sorry to sound so much like Lazaris langauge. I have to laugfh at myself too.

[I keep believing that somewhere someday, we will have some posters who can allow for disagreement without feeling attacked or persecuted, or resort to doing that themselves when their beliefs are challenged.]

God yes, that would be freeing. Not long ago you'd be triggering the competitor in me (my langauge!), as I've been really into sports and being especially cool and supeior. But now, it just sounds fun and interesting and I hope inspiring.

[If you don't want to, that's cool too. I'm just looking for someone who is familiar enough with the material to discuss it specifically, not even necessarily because I have a mission to tear it all down to the ground, but because it is part of my process of re-thinking my own beliefs, where they came from, and why I have accepted them as true.]

Your honesty touches me deeply.

[I also think it would be a refreshing change from the endless assertions that the Lazaris materials and techniques work and are valuable, but with no specific reasons as to why other than "I'm a better person for them".]

You bring tears to my eyes. .......yes we are human, and need to know in many and sometimes more pragmatic and tangible ways.

[I must admit, I'm at the short end of my rope on that one, especially given all the time, energy, and caring that have gone into the posts from people explaining why we feel we are better off without the materials.]

I don't pretend to know, but maybe I can come to understand you a little .............

[I'm not a fan of the use of the "loaded language", but I get your drift. I take you at your word that you engaged in those behaviors, although I feel the need to note that those were the pat reasons given for any disagreement expressed with the Forum Monsters,]

Yes, I agree they can be monsters! Me too, with the worst of them ......
But though I may have not found better words to describe these things than Lazaris used, they are my own accessed reasons.

[Anyway, for the sake of agreement, I agree that those games don't help the cause, and that all of us are well-served to check our state of consciousness at the door before jumping in. I do hope that we never see anyone here judging the soul of another in that way though, especially not from some place of authority because of studying the Lazaris materials.]

I admit, judgement is something ellusive and tricky; even when honestly trying to not do it. Opinions, evaluations, observations, assessments, judgements ............ but I hope your right too.

[At this point, nothing Lazaris has to say is proof of anything to me.]

I think you're right again. Wether this is an illusion, or real, or both, proof is also very ellusive.

[So, all that said, do you have interest in such a discussion?]

Yeah, I think that's what we're already doing, and pretty well too!

Nice to meet you! I'll be responding you your post shortly.

Katie

Thanks, I have a great feeling; and for quite some time now, I seem to be ready and willing to let it last, and grow and to share it too - Robert

[This message has been edited by Katie (edited 06-15-2001).][/B][/QUOTE]

First, let me welcome you to the unofficial "Forum Refugees Mutual Admiration Society". It's unofficial, cause I just made it up, and haven't figured out the dues structure and guidelines yet.

quote:

---

I read a couple hours worth; went through a some proccessing, cried today with another friend - especially about
Michael's death - which somewhat surprised me, although my mother committed suicide somewhat passively (and I mostly agree that all deaths are suicide).

---

I understand. I had some very strong emotions about Michaell's suicide also, and I didn't even know the guy. The mental graphic I got with the news was very sad, and very disturbing. Although I agree that to some extent or another we all pick our time, I am always saddened and shocked over suicides. I'm not blind to it as a world class form of contempt and manipulation in many cases either. Other than in cases of terminal illness, I always find a tremendous underlying punishment in it. Maybe I find it all the sadder for that reason.

I'm glad to hear it didn't ruin your day.

Did you just hear this news today, or are you just processing the information now?

quote:

---

That was a long qoute, but I think you say really well what causes so many problems, and I have also been guilty of.

---

Yes, no doubt we all have been at one time or another. The issue isn't being there, it's staying there and denying it.

quote:

---

I also came to see that I was correct in my assesment of others being not too loving, and that I had allowed it, but that I'm getting better at not allowing it so
much anymore.

---

I'm curious about what you mean by allowing others to be less than loving. I assume you mean you allowed their unloving behavior toward you.

quote:

---

Although I see lots of paradoxes, and examples of multiple truths, I've never really noticed inconsistancies in Lazaris - except when I'm in self pity and conjuring up reasons to blame and punish, and for me to nobilise my desire to quit too - which is
another reason maybe that especially Michael's death affected me. My first response to real difficulty has most always been the raging "to just get the fuck out
of here!"

---

Ahh, herein lies for me the crux of the mind control. Cults always implant the thought that any contrary thoughts or desire to leave are an indication of something wrong with ourselves. That is how they keep people around, even in the face of inconsistancies and abuse. I really wonder what a "multiple truth" is.

quote:

---

But back to Lazaris - I also always wondered what the heck they see in Peny. But it just occured to me that as I've heard them say, they choose who they want to be intimate with, and it's not with everyone. I've also heard them say how when you are loving more than looking to be loved, you can't pick the wrong person! And for my part in reality creation and allowing this,
their loving Peny demonstrates to me, that if it's posible to love here so much (a great challenge in my opinion), then it really is possible for me to love whoever I (carefully) and honestly chose to love.

---

LOL, well, yes we could take Lazaris' love for Peny as proof positive that we are all deserving of love, or that who we choose to love is no one else's business to judge (John Lennon and Yoko Ono come to mind)

It isn't Lazaris loving Peny that I have an issue with, it is his foisting her off on us as a beautiful, loving person, an enlightened being and most powerful of magicians that bugs me. That's to me like having a friend whose best buddy is an extortionist, and having him pawned off on me as a brilliant financial advisor. Now, anyone would be pissed off by that, and actually, should I be extorted, I believe my less than honest friend would be legally accountable as an accessory. (Sorry Wayne, there's that legal reference again!) The laws made by society are reflective of the boundaries common to the majority. Most of us want to be protected against being seriously misled or put at risk by our friends. Lazaris' glowing endorsements of Peny smack to me of betrayal of his alleged friendship, love, and respect for me.

quote:

---

So I see their relationship not as much about Lazaris' gushy poor choices; but as an example of how loving they can be. As for not choosing to love me in a similar way, I've come to know myself well enough to
see that that may have seduced me into a codependency and tempted me not to really do the work, but just to assume I must be really special already; and being a 4, I really don't need that ego stroke!

---

I think you got a little to "Lazarian" for me on that one. Didn't Lazaris promise to love YOU forever and a day? Don't they love us "as we are"? What does doing any work, or feeling special have to do with receiving love?

quote:

---

I remember Lazaris saying something like, "Guidance without boundaries can lead to codependency.............." (does anyone remember is there more?)

---

I don't remember that quote specifically, but it smacks of more cult-speak to me, just as the Lazaris teachings on freedom and responsibility do. They are all geared, IMO, to make us think that we are free an not notice that the "boundaries" are actually prison walls, built and defined by Lazaris, not by us. No one else can define our boundaries for us, yet Lazaris keeps doing it anyway.

quote:

---

So I like keeping Lazaris as a clearly boundaried frind, and they have been a very good friend to me. I do believe in their honesty.

---

quote:

---

I also think Concept Synergy has some really damaging flaws. So I try to be greatful that at least they get the tapes to me, and I leave the rest for others to play around with, if they choose.

---

Why would you be grateful that someone got rich selling you tapes? I'm amazed at how effective that bit of mind control is, I invested in it myself, until I realized that I had very little gratitude to anyone else I was paying a very high price to, especially for shoddy material like those two cent tapes they use. I am always grateful when I get a good value for my money, but please, 25 bucks for a tape that breaks after three playings? I call that gouging myself.

quote:

---

I really appreciate how this site offers some of what the forum lacked -

---

I'm appreciative of your appreciation!

Seriously, I am too, and look forward to adding your post to my list of things I am appreciative about this site.

You and Katie really get me (so far in a good way!)..... ..... yes I've seen and felt too much of that pain and sadness too. With my Mother a long time ago, and then a young woman I felt more passionately about than anyone I've ever known (at least in this life!).

[Thing is, Lazaris didn't just say that they love Peny. Who could argue with that? They went further and said that Peny didn't need to come back to the physical plane.]

Yes, I've pondered that one myself too! But now in the light of the Cosmic Fool, I remember Lazaris saying that about all of us. Life is optional; a choice, and a gift, which can be turned down!

Often I've wished I'd have had the sense to pass on this one. Many times Lazaris' greatest inspiration to me was that they had the wisdom or luck to choose never to be physical!

[They said she nearly saved Atlantis.]

I never heard that one............ you got me!
Well, they say we create our past too, and all simultaneously (I don't pretend to know this for sure), and I guess Peny's ego must be really grandiose! I prefer more and mmore to be somewhat invisible. Not too interested in saving anybody! Hard enough to get myself up in the morning ..............

But I have no idea why Lazaris allowed that in Peny past into their reality. Seems pretty funny to me. But I know and empathise, that to vulnerable people that can be really harmful.

[They said she is a bright light that was noticable to them even in their "Higher Realms".]

Well yes, there's a lot of shellac in that hair-do. It reflects even to the heavens ....

[These statements encourage people to put much trust in Peny. Unlike unconditional love, misplaced trust is quite dangerous. It is this misplaced trust in Peny, IMO, that allowed her to run roughshod over Forum members. This is, to a large extent, a consequence of Lazaris' actions. A consequence for which I have seen them take no responsibility. Instead the onus is on us to figure out which demon - martyr, dark law, nemesis - is causing us to not "get it". By Lazaris' definition, that is shaming.]

To be serious; yes I really agree. Thankfully in a way, I disliked her from the start and never gave her any power. For those that did, I hope in some small way we can help the healing.

She never hurt me at all. Just a little confusion. But I'll come right out and say it, it was there friend Michaele I think he spelled it (not Michael North), that I really dispised and seemed to get enmeshed with. And thankfully again, Lazaris never got involved or took sides or defende Michaele, or me either. But then Jach did jump in and it got really wild for a few short glorious moments before the cut off.

So I am interested in, and respect your experience, but I never had it that way with Lazaris. I always found them to be good at staying out of the petty human dramas.

[And this is if Lazaris is real. If not, there is a whole lot more shaming going on, which I shan't go into now as it has been covered on this site quite a bit.]

Again I strongly agree. Though as I've heard Lazaris say, all beliefs are false, and none of it is real (and at the same time it is real and real to us), so pick the beliefs that work for you - very pragmatic!

But I agree honesty is most important.

Cheers, Ted

Alright, I am enjoying this, Robert

[In your first post you wrote: I tend to agree with the thought about not picking the wrong person if one looking to love more than be loved. But I do think that one's love could be pearls before swine. [There certainly is danger in loving, even when one is not expecting love in return. It can be very painful to watch someone you love destroy themselves.]

You and Katie really get me (so far in a good way!)..... ..... yes I've seen and felt too much of that pain and sadness too. With my Mother a long time ago, and then a young woman I felt more passionately about than anyone I've ever known (at least in this life!).

[Thing is, Lazaris didn't just say that they love Peny. Who could argue with that? They went further and said that Peny didn't need to come back to the physical plane.]

Yes, I've pondered that one myself too! But now in the light of the Cosmic Fool, I remember Lazaris saying that about all of us. Life is optional; a choice, and a gift, which can be turned down!

Often I've wished I'd have had the sense to pass on this one. Many times Lazaris' greatest inspiration to me was that they had the wisdom or luck to choose never to be physical!

[They said she nearly saved Atlantis.]

I never heard that one............ you got me!
Well, they say we create our past too, and all simultaneously (I don't pretend to know this for sure), and I guess Peny's ego must be really grandiose! I prefer more and mmore to be somewhat invisible. Not too interested in saving anybody! Hard enough to get myself up in the morning ..............

But I have no idea why Lazaris allowed that in Peny past into their reality. Seems pretty funny to me. But I know and empathise, that to vulnerable people that can be really harmful.

[They said she is a bright light that was noticable to them even in their "Higher Realms".]

Well yes, there's a lot of shellac in that hair-do. It reflects even to the heavens ....

[These statements encourage people to put much trust in Peny. Unlike unconditional love, misplaced trust is quite dangerous. It is this misplaced trust in Peny, IMO, that allowed her to run roughshod over Forum members. This is, to a large extent, a consequence of Lazaris' actions. A consequence for which I have seen them take no responsibility. Instead the onus is on us to figure out which demon - martyr, dark law, nemesis - is causing us to not "get it". By Lazaris' definition, that is shaming.]

To be serious; yes I really agree. Thankfully in a way, I disliked her from the start and never gave her any power. For those that did, I hope in some small way we can help the healing.

She never hurt me at all. Just a little confusion. But I'll come right out and say it, it was there friend Michaele I think he spelled it (not Michael North), that I really dispised and seemed to get enmeshed with. And thankfully again, Lazaris never got involved or took sides or defende Michaele, or me either. But then Jach did jump in and it got really wild for a few short glorious moments before the cut off.

So I am interested in, and respect your experience, but I never had it that way with Lazaris. I always found them to be good at staying out of the petty human dramas.

[And this is if Lazaris is real. If not, there is a whole lot more shaming going on, which I shan't go into now as it has been covered on this site quite a bit.]

Again I strongly agree. Though as I've heard Lazaris say, all beliefs are false, and none of it is real (and at the same time it is real and real to us), so pick the beliefs that work for you - very pragmatic!

But I agree honesty is most important.

Cheers, Ted

Alright, I am enjoying this, Robert

[The incident with Lazaris suggesting to the daughter to distance herself from her mother occurred fairly recently (a year ago?) in "Magic Time" at a seminar. It is written about extensively on this site. See "Love" "Magic" or "Manipulation"?]

I just read through that topic. I have lots of thoughts - and if this was the forum, I'd be expecting a big storm here
- but I wasn't there, and not to be disrespectful, but being in the security field, and as Katie has said, appreciating and valuing law, I don't take sides or draw conclusions 'till I get more evidence and it goes through a trial proccess.

As far as I could tell, this was one woman's experience and story of it, and I honor and respect that. But having no one else substantiate it, or who was there and can tell of their experience and observations and points of view, I don't assume it as "the only truth," the objective truth, the accurate truth, or even to be honest or true beyond this woman's personal reality - possibly in the physical, or possibly not.

I don't personally know this woman, or even her real name, or have any basis of trust, or mistrust with her.

If there is accuracy, I do think it's strange and suspect that Lazaris is giving specific advice. But I realise that Lazaris, at least to me, never claimed to be perfect (and instead speaks clearly about "Escaping The Entrapment Of Perfection"), and never asked us to trust them (on one of the trust tapes they specifically point out how they have and will never ask us to trust them, and are talking of how to more trust ourselves and to develop trust with chosen others).

If this woman is accurately telling of something that Lazaris did, I don't excuse it, but it does'nt bother me. There's a lot of stuff they say and ways they say it that I don't like or agree with. So what does that mean except again as they say, like us, they're not perfect - thank God!

I'm probably not a good one to ask on this specific example anyway. I never had an interest in having kids, and don't emphasise physical/family ties too much - though I don't judge them, and I do get along great with my living relatives, and the dead ones too! But I prefer my friends that I've a little more consciously chosen and we have more equal relationships.

So again, if Wise Crone, and Proud Mother are correct, although unexpected, out of character, and maybe inapropriate, it did sound like pretty good advice to me (I can hear some people screaming now!) and it does'nt detract from my friendship with Lazaris - though I do take it into account in my thought s regarding Lazaris.

I mean come on, if they did say that, all they said was create a little distance. I did'nt hear her say anything about terminating, or cutting off, or permanent ending, or punishing ..................... but maybe just to help in ending struggle. Sounds like a good idea to me! I used to be a major noble struggler myself. Now I like it easy and to have fun ..............

It does remind me of how it has taken me about 25 years to find a harmonious and healthy space and closeness with my Dad, now as friend too. And it has been even more challenging with my long gone Mother - though now we are at peace and love also.

So to summarise, I don't pretend know what happened, it does sound a little strange, but I think it's up to each of us to turn it into something good, and maybe even miraculous and forgiving too.

I really hope that we can do that together right here with this issue of trust and betrayal that seems to concern a lot of us.

Thanks for your time and energy, Robert

First, let me welcome you to the unofficial "Forum Refugees Mutual Admiration Society". It's unofficial, cause I just made it up, and haven't figured out the dues structure and guidelines yet.

Hey Katie, I'm honored to be a considered for membership.

Looking forward to responding, but it's time to go now. I think I'll be back tomorrow.

Have a wonderous night and weekend,

Robert

I can't get my head around this anti-parent and family stuff, but I do know it's another cult symptom.

I think I have to withdraw my offer for a discussion.

The conversation has already taken too deep a dive for me.

I'm headed for shore!

Cya around!

I think I remember you from the same short time I was exploring the forum repression, and good stuff too.

Anyway I just really enjoy what, and how you say this:

[But successful individuals, could be what we all are finding now, in this forum.

To me, successful individuals are people who speak up for themselves, they don't take anybody's crap no more, they speak honestly about who they are and what they think.

I feel that all these things are happening here, and I define it as success. Many of us here are on a journey, becoming individuals, and we are thrashing all that which made us into fearful followers. If that isn't successful then I don't know what is. And I'm happy that this place exists, it has healed something inside of me which was wounded from my past experience with Peny and the gang, and also my experiences further back with the other group of people.
Now I just feel empowered.]

It's like the old story of falling into the hole, and now taking a different path - and it's great to hear of you growing.

love, Robert

I repectfully and sincerely hope you have found your safe and secure shore.

If you don't want a discussion with me that's understandable, and OK, although a little disappointing, to me.

We agree on some things! - I also don't get "anti-parenting and family stuff" either. And I think it could be, or may not be used to be cultish.

To try to clarify what I wonder if you misunderstood, and definately
mis-paraphrased. I am not "anti-parent and family," as you said.

I wrote "................. and (I) don't emphasise physical/family ties too much - though I don't judge them, and I do get along great with my living relatives, and the dead ones too!"

In my opinion, to "not emphasise, and not judge, is very clearly different than to be anti."

But we also agree - I think it's a good idea for now (yet I'm open to change and maybe getting back to it in the future) that we don't discuss this particular topic. Though I look forward to reading of what you write, and maybe discussing others topics, especially the Lazaris material itself.

Lazaris did not simply suggest that the daughter distance herself - he said the mother's thinking was "all wrong". It's not just one woman telling the story - the mother also did.

I know the mother and daughter well. I know it happened and I know it was totally uncalled for. And even if it was good advice, it contradicts Lazaris' contention that they will not tell people what to do.

C:S even tells a story that Michaell came to stay with them through Lazaris' advice. Shall we also discount their own story?

And of course, it just so happens that the mother was involved in a scuffle with Jach and Peny several months prior. They never mentioned this to the daughter before the mother disagreed with Peny. All of a sudden, her thinking was all wrong.

You wrote:

quote:

---

...I think it's up to
each of us to turn it into something good, and maybe even miraculous and forgiving too.

---

You say you're up on the Lazaris Material. Remember Lazaris talking about this kind of thing? Of course we can always make the most of any situation. But it doesn't excuse those who manipulate and hurt. It's still wrong.

You wrote:

quote:

---

...So what does that mean
except again as they say, like us, they're not perfect - thank God!

---

No, they don't claim to be perfect. But do claim that they never lie and they never fail. And they claim to not be restricted by ego. They claim to have unique insights - otherwise, why would we pay money to see and hear them? If Jach didn't claim that the voice coming from his mouth was anything other than an imperfect human, I could more readily forgive some mistakes. And I also wouldn't have placed an inordinate amount of trust in him. Ill-gotten trust.

So when "Lazaris" screws up it's because we can't expect them to be perfect. But we're supposed to take their word on everything because they're from the "Higher Realms".

You wrote:

quote:

---

(Lazaris) never asked us to trust them (on one of the trust tapes they specifically point out how they have and will never ask us to trust them, and are talking of how to more trust ourselves and to develop trust with chosen others).

---

They don't ask us to trust them, yet they take us on "meditations" where they delve deep into our psyches and "re-wire" and "plant beliefs", etc. Would you let just anyone do that?

Methinks they protest too much. How many times have they told us they'll love us forever and a day, that they won't hypnotize us without our permission, that they are beyond the "negative emotions", that there are no pre-requisites, that working with Lazaris is a preference, not a need? Yeah, I've heard it all many times.

But then they say that we "map-makers" prevented a world war by working with our Kosovo grids. How would we have done that without Lazaris who ostensibly brought the mapmakers together? No, we don't need them - we would just have a world war without them? And then there is our "negative ego", a cold-blooded murderer waiting to destroy us. How would we survive without the love and wisdom of the Grand Orb?

We don't need to buy all the tapes, just the ones that warn us about all the bogiemen lying in wait for us. And if we want to do more than just survive then we need the tapes with the "magical techniques". And working with the shadow is "an imperitive on the spiritual path". And Lazaris just happens to be there to work with us on this imperitive, even though we don't need it. Implications go deeper than gross, repetitive words.

Sorry, I've spent 12 years rationalizing the inconsistencies and manipulations of these people. I'm not going back to twisting my mind in a pretzel in order to excuse the inexcusable.

It's great to read more of what you have to say today. I don't know the amount of writing in here or the rythyms yet, but it seemed really quiet today - though I appreciate that and thankfully with no big storms brewing, I read quite a bit more around the site. Lots of great stuff and it's so fantastic to be able to be different and unique and to disagree and to have your own thoughts and feelings!

Everything you say makes sense, and I appreciate your expressing it.

It's dificult to know exactly what I feel about your attitudes and current choices about Lazaris, or how to say it, because I think it's kind of new to me. I used to be so hurt and angry, that I did'nt have much experience with genuine caring and understanding and sorrow and wanting to help - but that's what I feel about you and your experiences and now what you are thinking and feeling - I hope I can be of some understanding and solace.

You wrote:

[Sorry, I've spent 12 years rationalizing the inconsistencies and manipulations of these people. I'm not going back to twisting my mind in a pretzel in order to excuse the inexcusable.]

I'm glad to hear that and would'nt want or ask you to.

I look forward to reading and sharing more here, and I hope in some way I can help as you and lots of other people writing are helping me already .

Cheers also, Robert

There really aren't any rhythms here. Some days the posts come fast and furious, and others there are very few. I don't think we've had a day of zero posts yet though.

I have noticed that sometimes when intense emotions are expressed here the board tends to slow down for awhile. I think some people know that, and deliberately try to stop the show by starting to scream and howl, just for the sheer sense of power it gives them.

I think it's a shame that there seems to be a fear of intense emotion here, and that it causes a lot of people to feel "unsafe".

I think that's another cult symptom. People are terrified of the potential for some big authoritarian punishment fest, or some people are just afraid of strong emotions in general.

It's a shame, that, because it allows for a lot of emotional manipulation on the part of those who choose to abuse that knowledge. It's also kind of a manipulation in itself, given that wounded silences often serve to thwart open and honest expression.

But, such is the way of human interaction, and this board serves me as a realtime experiment in free expression, so watching and analyzing the ebbs and flows is very interesting to me. It's also a challenge to observe myself, and how I relate to manipulation.

As to your regret that I've declined a discussion about the Lazaris techniques, I have to be honest and tell you that my observation is that you are very much indoctrinated with what I regard to be mind controlled, cultified thinking, and it's becoming very clear to me that there isn't any point in trying to take that on.

When two people don't agree on even the most fundamental of issues, there really is too little common ground for a productive dialogue, and given how difficult it is for some, especially those in cults to separate themselves from their beliefs, I don't think it's a good idea for me to wade into those shark infested waters.

We've already had way too much of that here, and I'm not interested in going back over the same territories again.

Also, I have a big problem here in that as much as I have declined, rejected, and insisted that I do not function from any place of authority here, my opinions are still given way too much weight and significance by some here. Those who take disagreement as a personal attack find my disagreements to be deadly weapons.

Because of that, my every word is under a degree of scrutiny and held to a level of judgment that is very unpleasant, and unwelcomed by me.

Twenty people could say the same thing I am, and even say it with ten times the force, but still it is my opinion that becomes the focus, and the subject of intense reaction.

As far as I'm concerned, that is nothing more than projection, since I have not set myself up as the final word on anything, but even Lazaris says that the best thing to do when someone is projecting on you is to get out of the way.

So, for the moment at least, I'm planning on avoiding such encounters, and sadly, I smell one coming should I engage in a direct dialogue with you or anyone here right now that might get down and gritty. And, it will get down and gritty, because already I see many areas where we disagree, and I don't dance to the tune of "Everything is Beautiful".

I'm not planning on shutting up, or going away, I won't give anyone that much power, but for the moment, I'm stepping out of the
path of the roaring freight train.

So, I'll be around, just not standing in the middle of the track.

Have a blast though, I hope you do find some direct debate about the Lazaris materials, but it won't be with me, not right now.

Katie

quote:

---

Originally posted by Katie:
Hi Robert,

There really aren't any rhythms here. Some days the posts come fast and furious, and others there are very few. I don't think we've had a day of zero posts yet though.

I have noticed that sometimes when intense emotions are expressed here the board tends to slow down for awhile. I think some people know that, and deliberately try to stop the show by starting to scream and howl, just for the sheer sense of power it gives them.

I think it's a shame that there seems to be a fear of intense emotion here, and that it causes a lot of people to feel "unsafe".

I think that's another cult symptom. People are terrified of the potential for some big authoritarian punishment fest, or some people are just afraid of strong emotions in general.

It's a shame, that, because it allows for a lot of emotional manipulation on the part of those who choose to abuse that knowledge. It's also kind of a manipulation in itself, given that wounded silences often serve to thwart open and honest expression.

But, such is the way of human interaction, and this board serves me as a realtime experiment in free expression, so watching and analyzing the ebbs and flows is very interesting to me. It's also a challenge to observe myself, and how I relate to manipulation.

As to your regret that I've declined a discussion about the Lazaris techniques, I have to be honest and tell you that my observation is that you are very much indoctrinated with what I regard to be mind controlled, cultified thinking, and it's becoming very clear to me that there isn't any point in trying to take that on.

When two people don't agree on even the most fundamental of issues, there really is too little common ground for a productive dialogue, and given how difficult it is for some, especially those in cults to separate themselves from their beliefs, I don't think it's a good idea for me to wade into those shark infested waters.

We've already had way too much of that here, and I'm not interested in going back over the same territories again.

Also, I have a big problem here in that as much as I have declined, rejected, and insisted that I do not function from any place of authority here, my opinions are still given way too much weight and significance by some here. Those who take disagreement as a personal attack find my disagreements to be deadly weapons.

Because of that, my every word is under a degree of scrutiny and held to a level of judgment that is very unpleasant, and unwelcomed by me.

Twenty people could say the same thing I am, and even say it with ten times the force, but still it is my opinion that becomes the focus, and the subject of intense reaction.

As far as I'm concerned, that is nothing more than projection, since I have not set myself up as the final word on anything, but even Lazaris says that the best thing to do when someone is projecting on you is to get out of the way.

So, for the moment at least, I'm planning on avoiding such encounters, and sadly, I smell one coming should I engage in a direct dialogue with you or anyone here right now that might get down and gritty. And, it will get down and gritty, because already I see many areas where we disagree, and I don't dance to the tune of "Everything is Beautiful".

I'm not planning on shutting up, or going away, I won't give anyone that much power, but for the moment, I'm stepping out of the
path of the roaring freight train.

So, I'll be around, just not standing in the middle of the track.

Have a blast though, I hope you do find some direct debate about the Lazaris materials, but it won't be with me, not right now.

Katie

---

I was off for a couple of days but it's good to be back reading and finding some inspiration.

Again, I really appreciate you and what you say and how you say it - being different, and at differing times and spaces is what I'm coming to enjoy can be so interesting and fun about being physical.

I've been having some observations and insights about the workings of control lately, and the beauty of being free of it, and letting others be free of it too - and it seems to me like we have each given ourselves permission to be more free, and in here, we are now also giving each other more and more refelections of, and opprtunities to practice those freedoms.

I just hope we both have the curiosity, flexibility, and humility to be looking for and open to change and more growth (concerning Lazaris and their material).

Katie, with great respect for your uniqueness, your dignityy, and your path and proccess, and being very careful not to be comparing or condecending here, I just want to let you know that in my own way I have been and stayed skeptical of Lazaris since I first discovered them about 15 years ago. And about 10 years ago I went through my own deep exploration of cults and my fears and concerns about them and the possibility of Lazaris or CS being a cult or cultlike.

It was a challenging, scary, and ultimately really empowering turning point in my growth - and no matter how you evolve, I hope and wish the same (or better) for you.

I have no idea where you'll go from here, and no interest in trying to determine it for you; and I agree and think it's really important for you do be true to yourself and to do this work, and live and pursue your life in your own way.

Looking forward to it.................

Robert

quote:

---

I just hope we both have the curiosity, flexibility, and humility to be looking for and open to change and more growth (concerning Lazaris and their material).

---

Hmm...that statement indicates to me that you have doubts about that. Since you use the plural "we", I guess you are including me in your doubts. Maybe my curiosity, flexibility, and humility are of my own determination, as they are of yours.

quote:

---

Katie, with great respect for your uniqueness, your dignityy, and your path and proccess, and being very careful not to be comparing or condecending here,

---

quote:

---

I just want to let you know that in my own way I have been and stayed skeptical of Lazaris since I first discovered them about 15 years ago. And about 10 years ago I went through my own deep exploration of cults and my fears and concerns about them and the possibility of Lazaris or CS being a cult or cultlike.

---

So, are you going to keep us guessing? :}

It would be interesting to me to hear of the criteria you used to make the evaluation, and share with us how you came to your conclusions. Your choice of course.

If you approach the materials still with skepticism, would you endorse them for others?

quote:

---

It was a challenging, scary, and ultimately really empowering turning point in my growth - and no matter how you evolve, I hope and wish the same (or better) for you.

---

I think it's a fair guess that we all feel that for each other here. Thank you, I return the sentiment.

quote:

---

I have no idea where you'll go from here, and no interest in trying to determine it for you; and I agree and think it's really important for you do be true to yourself and to do this work, and live and pursue your life in your own way.

---

Hmmm..it's a bit difficult not to take that comment as a bit of a condescending lecture. Is there anything you know about me that would lead you to assume that I'm not doing all of the above, or that I need reminders? Kinda like having someone say "I hope you realize that it's really important to put on clean clothes and brush your teeth before going on that job interview".

Maybe I'm oversensitive to it, since I've had so many "loving lectures" all loaded with advise and reminders about how I should do the very normal and usual things that any half way self respecting person would do, things that I would never presume to feel the need to remind someone else of.

I think that's part of what makes me bristle about cults, there is always this sense of knowing what is the best for others, but the complete reluctance to just come right out and say it.

You know.."far be it from me to judge you....but....here are my judgements."

How is a person supposed to respond to that?

Anyway, I'm quite fine with my understanding that Con:Sin is a cult, and that Lazaris and Con:Sin are not separate entities.

There really isn't any pain or confusion in that for me at all. Quite the opposite, in fact, it's quite liberating to me. The pain and confusion left me the minute the bright light came on and showed me what I was standing in up to my eyeballs.

And, actually, it wasn't really much of a difficult process for me, I just read for about an hour on cults, and knew for sure that I had been in one. It isn't brain surgery. Either the L materials function to control and manipulate, or they don't. No rocket science there. The real issue for me is humility. Am I humble enough to admit that I made a mistake and was taken for a long ride?

Maybe the degree of difficulty is equal to the willingness to know the truth.

Ted and I were bound and determined to get to the truth, and still are. There is still a lot more to know, but I think I can speak for him in saying that we know quite enough to have no doubts whatsoever that the road out of there is a hell of a lot more likely to take us somewhere than that ever more twisting maze we were in. We did lots of walking, but didn't seem to get very far. I'm still waiting to meet someone who did. Do you know anyone?

So, thanks for your thoughts, I just wanted to clear up any misunderstandings.

I'm really not in need or desire of any "sound advice", no matter how gingerly or gently offered. I'll do my best not to hand any out either.

Katie

quote:

---

Anyway, I'm quite fine with my understanding that Con:Sin is a cult, and that Lazaris and Con:Sin are not separate entities.

There really isn't any pain or confusion in that for me at all. Quite the opposite, in fact, it's quite liberating to me. The pain and confusion left me the minute the bright light came on and showed me what I was standing in up to my eyeballs.

---

This sentiment could be highlighted in boldface in some prominent site spot so L fans will realize that touchy-feely concern is not neccessary.

Jade

It's nice to meet you. My sister is the girl who went to the magic time and Lazaris told her to distance herself from my mother because my mother's thinking is all wrong.

[?!]

I don't understand how the he** Lazaris could say that--not if "they" know who my mother is. And let me tell you something--my mother spent tons of money on the L material. She's been to quite a few weekends and workshops and I won't even go into the tapes that she has and the meditations that she's done. My mother is a sincere and loving person who actually worked with the material.

Her only fault is that she didn't cave in and start dogging her friends when they were treated unfairly at the forum. Wow! If standing by your beliefs and honoring the way you feel is a symptom of "thinking that is all wrong" then I want to be just like my mother.

And it's funny, but L never said anything to my sister before about this distancing. All of a sudden--out of the blue--"they" bring it up? It wasn't relevant to the question that was asked either, by the way, so what possible purpose could there be in saying it?

I don't know if Lazaris is real or not. Sometimes I'm sure that "they're" a big fake and then sometimes I'm not. Everytime that I remember what he tried to do to my family--I am convinced that he's a big fake--a con-- who's just out to make money by taking people's beautiful beliefs and exploiting them.

Re-reading this, it sounds like I'm yelling at you--please believe me--it's not my intention. I absolutely ADORE my family--and I get pissed when I remember how L and CS tried to drive a wedge into our relationship. Because I'm absolutely positive that the next thing that Lazaris would have done is to tell my sister that the thinking of the rest of her family is "all wrong" and to distance herself from us.

Thanks for listening.

quote:

---

And it's funny, but L never said anything to my sister before about this distancing. All of a sudden--out of the blue--"they" bring it up? It wasn't relevant to the question that was asked either, by the way, so what possible purpose could there be in saying it?

---

Right, this is the question that has to be asked. Why now? If your sisters relationship with your mother, or your mothers thinking is a big stumbling block for her, why didn't that come up in any of the previous Magic Times or private readings?

L fans are constantly asking us to look beyond the obvious and find the "balance" or "empowerment" in all of these blatent control and manipulation tactics. My response is go find the balance and empowerment in a dose of cyanide.

Even the Orb says that when someone is assaulted, you don't come rushing by to remind them to figure out "why they created this".

I know why Jach created the opportunity to take a swipe at your mother. Jach is a mean, punishing, and vindictive bit of trash, that's why. Marilyn didn't cave into the endless manipulations, and it pissed him off. He was pissed off at me and Ted too, and this is how he vented his anger. He used his alter-ego orb self to exact revenge, AT YOUR SISTER'S EXPENSE. He USED her faith and belief to get in his little swipes, and in doing so sent a very clear message to all in attendance who had witnessed Forum Storm.
Marilyn is a fuck up, that's why it happened.
Thank you Jachzaris for your beautiful love.

We now know from the many stories that have been told that Jach routinely uses his private entity to take his swipes both in private readings and during seminars.

There is evidence that the private readings themselves are used as a way to identify people's vulnerabilities, or to mine a few "secret weapons" to be used AGAINST the faithful and vulnerable.

We know about the gossip fests, Peny's obsession with gathering new and juicy bits of information on people, her need to find targets for her twisted contempt for all people not herself. We also know that Jach had an equally twisted mission to feed that beast, and evidently he has developed a bit of a taste for shredded souls himself assuming he didn't always have it.

Jach through his charade of Lazaris has given himself the opportunity to play God with people, and we have documented that he does just that.

People can argue whether or not L is a separate entity from Jach, but it is stories like this one that make me confident that whatever is happening up there on that stage, Jach's agendas are being addressed, private information and vulnerabilities are being exploited. Who cares if it's some entity doing that or the cheezy insurance saleswimp himself?

Imagine that you just were the target of one of the Con:Sin all night "love healings" to cure you of your latest "negative-ego" attack, and then while sitting in a seminar you hear your story being told to the audience by the grinning glow-egg, only what you know that no one else does is that the story is a distorted version of events, one geared only to take yet another hard swipe at your already bashed in head?

Lazaris always gets to have the final word, don't "they"?

When I had my run-in with Jach he tried every nasty little maneuver he could think of to punish me. He was more than willing to use Lazaris as a weapon by threatening to cut me off, and by trying to limit my access to the wisdom of his personal Entity.

Now, why would he do that? If it were true that I was in the midst of a huge negative-ego crash, that my spirituality was at risk,
"thrown out the window" as Peny stated, then why on earth would he not want to give me MORE access, not less?

If you think someone is drowning, don't you cast them a line, or call a lifeguard or something?

I know that by saying this I am providing the mind-numbed with their excuses for my disgust and disbelief in this multi-dimensional creature, it's all sour grapes they will say.

Well, ok, let's ignore everything else I've ever said about my process of disbelief and say, yeah, it's sour grapes. I spent twelve years as a faithful believer in someone who told me that they will love me forever and a day, and where were they when the chips were down?

Where were they for Marilyn, Jade,or any of the other recipients of the Gangs "love healings"?

How many people have been the subject or witness to these flayings, and felt frightened and confused by them, felt their faith being shattered, their minds being twisted, and their souls being mutilated, yet we have not one tiny instance of our faithful lover speaking up to shed some light on the situation. Why?

Lazaris always says that we are not "bad or wrong" for falling prey to any of these misguided soul states, they claim they came here to provide information and help for us to overcome them. So, where is the help when the chips are down?

There is no help, because ultimately the whole L sham isn't about helping anyone but Jach. He even used Peny in his twisted and misguided way, by feeding and nurturing her twisted ego.

L is about control. When the chips are down, that is what you get. You will toe the line, you will pay obeisance to Peny and her Gang, or you will be PUNISHED.

So, for those who say I'm all full of sour grapes, I say YEAH. Let's just say that's the way it is, and there isn't enough saccharine in the Universe to sweeten them up.

When you have a mouth full of sour grapes, the only remedy I know is to spit them out as quickly as possible, and make damned sure to stop nibbling. Certainly you would't want to offer them to anyone else, or extol their virtues as a way to entice someone to cram their mouth with rotten fruit.

Yet, that is what I see in the faithful and true, a group of people sucking down one bit of rotten and bitter fruit after another because someone said that fruit is good for you, but you have to learn to like it. It's only your resistance that makes you believe that isn't nutritious, sweet and delicious fruit you're eating. Come to another seminar, do another technique, kill off another bit of your tastebuds, pretty soon that slop will start tasting good.

Fuck it, you can buy delicious fruit at the corner store, no instructions required to savor the flavor.

Sorry, Vicki, I still can't hear that story and not go off on a rant.

That Jach chose to single out your sister and use her sweetness and vulnerability to score some swipes on your Mother just makes me sick. No amount of justifying or explaining away is going to change that.

quote:

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This sentiment could be highlighted in boldface in some prominent site spot so L fans will realize that touchy-feely concern is not neccessary.

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Yeah, maybe I should post it in neon lights somewhere. It is so unwelcomed, and it feels really icky and condescending, especially when it comes packaged under the guise of "concern".

Why offer "help" to someone who isn't asking for it, or "concern" for something that isn't a problem?

If anyone has any doubts about the fun I'm having here, speaking my mind after having it trapped in a prison in the shape of a double tetrahedron for twelve years, let me put the minds at rest.

It is damned awesome to be out of that device, and excuse me for doing a bit of jumping up and down, stretching, running, and dancing. If I fall down and take a bruise in the process, I'll celebrate that too. I'm more than willing to take my chances.

Please everyone, I have no desire to get back in that box, no matter how charming you are finding it to still be.

Katie