It seems to me that the majority of the really frequent posters on this site are really very angry people.

I guess I gave you permission to vent by reading your posts, but some of you do go on! I hope it is at least good therapy for you.

But what about the good?

I don't want to bore anyone with my particular history, but I have a point to make.

My metaphysical history began in the early 70s with Arica Institute. I immersed myself into the meta-society, doing hours upon hours of meditation, yoga, karma cleaning, sufi exercises, tai chi, breathing meditations, etc.

After taking some of the highest levels of training both here in in New York, it became obvious to me and to most Aricans that the founder, Oscar Ichazo, could take us no further, and the meta-society sort of petered out in the late 70s. Oscar sort of faded into his personal life.

We had poured our hearts, souls and a lot of cash into the trainings, and we didn't get "there". But I don't know one Arican who regrets doing the work or their experiences, or who didn't gain from it.

I did my first est training in 75, and was hooked. For 6 years, I took every training they offered, spent thousand of dollars, assisted my ass off in the est offices, let est guest seminars, managed events, etc.

Well, you know about Werner Erhard. He has been discredited for being a bit too human or whatever. He has faded into his personal life.

Again, I really personally gained a lot from my association with est, and so did everyone I knew personally who did it.

Which brings me to Lazaris. Introduced via video tapes in 84, immediate mutual love affair. This teacher/friend has been patiently explaining the secrets and truths of the universe to me since then.

I bought all of the tapes for my bookstore, listened to most of them, have attended at least 2 or 3 weekends a year since then.

I personally do not regret sending C/S my money. I've always enjoyed my contacts and dealings with all of them over the years. It certainly hasn't been expensive compared to my past.

I never dealt with Peny personally, but I admit I would have been happier if she had looked a bit more like Sandra Bullock so I could more easily understand Lazaris attraction to her.

What I have gained from Lazaris (or Jach if you are right) is more personal peace when I walk the earth, which is to me a more friendly place.

I have gained in my ability to love, and to better understand the teachings of the physical universe. I really believe I am immortal and create my own physical reality! I am a magician, a mapmaker, a dreamweaver. And I like it!

I'm not even going to bore you with more of what Lazaris have given me. You can bet your ass I've been hypnotized. I gave him my permission.

I am not angry with Oscar, Werner, or Jach. And I suggest you relook at the good you personally received from Lazaris, and any other metaphysical teacher who has "betrayed" you.

So, thank you Oscar Ichazo for your courage in exploring the body, mind, spirit. Thank you Werner, for your technology and what you have contributed including The Hunger Project. And thank you, Lazaris.

As my personal behavior guru for the past few years, Eric Cartman, would say. "Screw you guys! I'm out of here!"

You wrote:

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It seems to me that the majority of the really frequent posters on this site are really very angry people.

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I don't know if that's meant to be a criticism or not. I'm not the least bit ashamed of my anger. I'm more ashamed of all the times I refused to feel anger when I watched the Gangsters tear people's hearts out.

If you're implying that anger is our only, or primary motivation, then I would have to disagree with you.

What about the good? We've written about that quite a bit here. You can find older threads by changing the box at the top of the page to say "Show post from...".

Lazaris has said many times that the ends don't justify the means. I believe it in spite of Lazaris having said it. The ends of learning to create our own reality, of learning the 7 steps in the process of loving (who says there are 7 steps?) etc. are noble. But if the means to ends includes being hypnotized without our permission (maybe you gave them permission, but I didn't), being lied to about the reason they came to speak, having Peny and her Gangsters "lovingly" rip people to shreads, then I wholeheartedly reject it. There are better means to those ends.

What about all the good that Mafia dons do? Surely one can find many people who are grateful to the local don for getting the landlord to lower their rent, etc. Many are grateful to Fidel Castro for improving the education system in Cuba. Does that mean we should turn a blind eye to their indescretions?

You wrote:

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I never dealt with Peny personally, but I admit I would have been happier if she had looked a bit more like Sandra Bullock so I could more easily understand Lazaris attraction to her.

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Peny's physical appearance was the least of her problems. Since you never dealt with her, please don't pass judgment on those of us who had the misfortune of dealing with her.

You wrote:

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I really believe I am
immortal and create my own physical reality! I am a magician, a mapmaker, a dreamweaver. And I like it!

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I like it too. And I was a metaphysician before I ever heard of Lazaris and I'm still one.

You wrote:

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I am not angry with Oscar, Werner, or Jach.

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Good for you. I won't tell you how to feel. Please don't tell me how to feel.

Thanks for the explanation of how you feel. I'm sure it isn't intended as a thumbprint for how others should feel. As Ted pointed out, we have all had our own unique experiences, and therefore it is only logical that we will have our own reactions to them.

Yes, there is anger here. Did you make that statement as a negative judgement about us majority of really frequent posters? I hope not. Like Ted, I make no apologies for my anger, or my free expression of it. Do you have a better idea about how to handle anger, or some rules to lay down about the feelings and observations of others?

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I guess I gave you permission to vent by reading your posts, but some of you do go on! I hope it is at least good therapy for you.

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No one asked you for your permission, why would you give it?

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But what about the good?

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I suppose if you are opposed to freedom of speech and expression you've completely missed what is very good about this site.

Katie

Interesting thread Frank. What struck me most about your post is that it appears you have spent the majority of your adult life working with various teachers, who have taken a tremedous amount of money, and yet this has not upset you.
Why ? Frank you say that it is due to your being helped in some ways by each of them.

You must be either extremely wealthy,now and/ or have been for some time. I do know how much Werner cost back in the 70's when there was a recession, at least in CA where I was, and I believe he was most of the time.
He was very expensive...And one was Urged to attend seminars frequently.??? am I correct?

I was only a teenager when he was popular, nevertheless,I do recall wanting to attend and not having near enough cash for even one event.

I then recall Werner falling from grace, and kinda being touted as a fraud who basically got his material from Scientology wrapped it in a new vernacular, and that's somehow what led to his demise.
You put it: he "faded into his personal life"
It seems a very meek way of saying what I'd heard happened.

I know nothing about Oscar. But what my experience of Con;sin was, it is reminicent of Werner in that alot was said about wisdom to be gained, and not much delivered. All at a very high cost.

When you said that you have all the tapes, surely you jest, well, you say you bought them for your bookstore, so this may mean that you own a metaphysical bookstore,???? regardless, you state that you have attended 2-3 seminars each year.
Then you say that's not been as expensive as EST etc.! even given the recession of the 70's that seems very difficult to believe.
This further strenthens my idea that you indeed have a very different relationship with money than anyone I have ever known heard of.

You also have a resivour of forgiveness that I find difficult to grok, especially given all your volunteering with Werner etc. that would take quite a bit of forgiving, when he walked away with so much, and so many had been urged to volunteer.

There are some questions that come to mind about all this.. Even though I gained insight from L. and the material, what bothers me is the pretext of sincerity.
When this is coupled with the fact that it is VERY expensive to be involved with the teachings..it really gets under my skin.

You have obviously come to the conclusion that ANYTHING gainded from these groups/ teachers is worthy of doling out lots and lots of cash.... I do not agree with that. Nor do I think others feel that way.

I would like to know about that level of forgiveness you must posess where did you get this from? Because, after buying every single tape about forgiveness that L. put out, it didn't help me.!
And I found this to be true of many tapes that were meant to heal/ resolve a specific personality trait or issue (anger), etc....

Oh, I know.. I didn't do them well, there are a thousand things you will think about what is wrong with me that those tapes didn't resolve issues.
I want my money back, and you obviously are not the type who cares...
But at the end of your post you state "screw you guys I'm outta here" but you covertly quote it as if someone ELSE says it...

I still believe the sheer quantity of anger expressed by some on this site to be excessive and possibly misdirected. But that is just my judgement.

I went to what I believe was the original Tradevest meeting in Marin, and signed up for it. I paid the fees, and purchased travel and other merchandise through Tradevest while it still operated.

The idea was that we would receive an annuity that when it matured, would be equal to what we had actually spent. You could buy travel and merchandise, and actually get what you spent back in 20 years.

I can't be the only Tradevest participant who didn't get burned, who actually received the annuities as promised. They were real, and I actually cashed them in last year.

I was disappointed when Tradevest folded, but didn't lose money, and received the full amount back that my wife and I spent using Tradevest as advertised.

The references to Tradevest I read in this site's archives repeatedly referred to it as if it were some sort of C/S scam. I didn't find one positive word about it, and wanted to let you know my experience.

Yes, I have put a lot into my metaphysical education, but not much more than some tithe to churches. I haven't created that much personal wealth, but I do have access to resources and a feeling of being taken care of, and still truly expect to be wealthy when I get my magic working better.

I certainly can afford to be on the standing list and to buy Lazaris tapes and listen to them, and I plan on continuing to do that at this point.

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I still believe the sheer quantity of anger expressed by some on this site to be excessive and possibly misdirected. But that is just my judgement.

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Interesting that you find the quantity of anger excessive. What amount of anger is moderate? Do you have an anger meter you could sell us? Along with it, maybe you could sell us an anger compass so we make sure to keep it moderately flowing in the right direction.

After all your studies with Lazaris do you miss it that even that glowing orb doesn't support one person telling another how angry they should be, or at what?

Do you get the problem I have here?

You are welcomed to your feelings, please leave me to mine.

As to Tradevest, we've been asking for information here for months, if you have some hard facts regarding that company, please do provide them.

It is our understanding that Tradevest long since went out of business. Who paid you the money?

Are you M.B, or a friend of hers? Do you know where she is? Many of us would like to hear from her.

Katie

I'm new to this site and if I am angry (I have not felt the hurt that some have so won't have the anger), it is mixed with many other feelings, including gratitude for the Lazaris material. Like many others, I've been trying - hard - to reconcile the teachings with the behaviour of some of the followers (friends). Actually, they are irreconcilable and I now consider them quite seperated. I do take your point that there is good to be had. I also undertand the anger that is being expressed and the reasons for it that have been so well expressed in other threads (I've spent hours in the last three days reading here!) - just keep reading.

I have a point, too, that came out of your posting:

"I'm not even going to bore you with more of what Lazaris have given me. You can bet your ass I've been hypnotized. I gave him my permission."

Like you, I kind of guessed that this was hypnotism - I've been hypnotised on several occasions though apparently I'm not a good subject (whatever that means). I was quite happy with that on Lazaris tapes and the one seminar I attended, and got some brilliant results when I let myself go into the process.

Well, bully for us. We knew we were being hypnotised, liked it and found it a positive experience. The point is, no-one said "this is a form of hypnosis". In fact, I remember Lazaris saying something like, "this is not hypnosis". Maybe one can say that listening to the tape or attending the seminar in the first place is a kind of permission for participation - but it isn't made clear and, IMO, it should be.

If I were to be angry about it, it would be because communication is not clear, permission not properly sought and not because I did not personally enjoy the situation or benefit from it. What if I hadn't, what if I had had a bad reaction?

That said, I have found quite a few people here talking about the good they feel came from Lazaris as well as others who don't. Of course it will be great when all the anger has been appropriately cleared - I expect it may take a while yet when it is so deeply held. I don't feel it is my place to tell others when they should stop feeling.

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I still believe the sheer quantity of anger expressed by some on this site to be excessive and possibly misdirected. But that is just my judgement.

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Frank, nobody can really argue that their anger is not misdirected or excessive without appearing to be angry and misdirected

I think it is probably more productive to address the source of the anger rather than try to silence it with a judgement of it being excessive or misdirected.

If you have information that can refute some of what is written here that would be a wonderful way to assist people in allieviating their own anger.

I have to say I did wonder if you weren't trying to encourage a whole lot of anger in response to your judgement in order to justify it. Is that a possiblity?

It is a common trick used to throw people off balance.

People who are afraid of emotion or more specifically intense emotion often accuse others of being excessive in order to manipulate them into silence.

People do this for a number of reasons I suppose but I would guess the most common is that they are often afraid of the intensity of their own emotions.

I think it is also often because people who have allot of buried anger and hurt expend massive amounts of energy repressing those emotions and hiding them from their own awareness.

When someone else however elegantly or inelegantly expresses emotion, it becomes a real threat.

I don't know how much of any of that applies to you.

Hell, I think it is a part of almost everyone's manipulative tool box.

If you see things that aren't true or that you disagree with written here, please by all means refute them, disagree.

You may be able to minimize the pain of betrayal for many people if you can provide factual information that refutes any claims made here.

If something written here is false or misleading and you have the facts to challenge it, please do so.

You cannot ever successfully assert that people have too much or the wrong kind of emotion.

It just simply isn't possible to do so.

What you can do is address the root of the anger with facts, with information.

Facts and information Frank..please.

That way..the people who are legitimately angry and have no investment in staying angry can get some resolution and maybe even some peace of mind.

If some people are just in it to express their misdirected anger [an observation I do not agree with at all] then those people will be outed and obvious in the face of incontravertable fact.

So the answer here Frank. The way to address this issue of peoples feelings around this is to share every fact and bit of information you reasonably can from your very long association with Concept Synergy,

Regards,

Please explain your experience with Tradevest.

You are the first person I have heard of to get their money back.

What about 20 years of interest did you get that back too?

If you didn't who did?

20 yrs of interest depending on the principal and investment strategy could be alot of canolies.

Can you explain?

Hearing about Tradevest this January was the straw that broke the camels back for me with CS.

I am very open and eager to hear that it wasn't a multilevel marketing scam.

Please..whatever you know pro or con..please share.

Regards,

So, you say that what you have spent in your growth Frank is not as much as sone "tithe' to churches.

Well, there's the rub eh.... I didn't want to tithe anything to jach Peny nor any of those other no-neck monsters down there.

I was paying money for an event which I believed I was attending to gain self empowerment and vital processes for my growth..... and NOT to be lied to.. and hypnotized into anything.

I was paying good money because I fully beieved that I was going to make the changes because I was in control FULLY, not through some hypnosis, but a guided meditation, with REAL Processes I could use again ON MY OWN.

THAT is why I would consider paying so much. There was so much more being offered.!
I was paying for methods of empowering myself, and I now see that this was a lie.
I was not being empowered, but quite the opposite, I was having my power taken away.

I take exception to them taking my money under that pretext.

Tithing money to a church for them to spend on those skinny kids in Africa, and then having persons find out it didn't go to the skinny kids, well, that's enuf for them to go behind bars eh..

I could go get hypnotized far easier, on MY own schedule, at less expense eh?? unlike Melanie states, I am a good candidate for hypnosis, and was almost run over by a car during the break at a three day intensive, cuz I was in a "hypnosis hangover" and could not shake the out of my mind feeling... very scary...

It still sounds to me like you are downplaying many important and questionable issues I and otehrs here have brought up.

If you are on the standing list for tapes, please do write me in detail about all the magic you have garnered from the lengthy Arthurian legend project because it sure seemed to me from the purple cards that wow,... you should be a very powerful magician to be reconed with now.

I don't know of anyone that got one twit of good outta that project, and gosh there were soooo many tapes seminars on that story.

I wait with baited breath.

Well, I'm just dying to know about those $40K crystals. Those puppies must jump up and get a gourmet dinner started 20 minutes before you arrive home wouldncha think?

Your point is a good one. After all the promises, we're looking for one "magician to be reckoned with". One Uno no more.

It seems the biggest, best, brightest, closest and most highly endorsed two just pulled a big cop-out bunny out of their magical hats. Boy, did those rabbit ears go flip-FLOP! Talk about an anti-climax to two decades of cheezy purple advertising!

Anyone else?

I'm talking mind shattering here, because that is what JachZaris promised OVER and OVER again. Show me da magic!

Or are us angry ones just missing all the love, magic and mystery behind Con:Sin's failure to succeed in healing her, and all the resultant chaos in Orlando?

If there is a Lazaris, why did he allow the scheduling of workshops he knew weren't going to happen? Why didn't The Orb let Jach know that Peny was going to die, and that the healing techniques weren't working?
If Peny chose to die, why didn't she tell them not to bother? Inquiring minds want to know these things.

I've stopped holding my breath waiting for a Lazaris miracle magician story to appear.

We only had to ask though for hundreds of stories of disillusionment frustration, failure, angst, and anger

Gotta be something significant in those stats.

Good scam though, you can weigh those skinny little kids, but to date no one has provided a measuring devise for the big bad "negative ego". Ok, well they did, but she seems to have magically created herself dead.

Katie

On this topic of anger, I wonder if what some are defining as anger is actually irreverence?

There is a difference, and I'm suspecting that our greatest critics aren't making that differentiation.

I think the irreverence of some here is very upsetting to others.

Any thoughts on that?

You asked specifically about Tradevest, and was it a multilevel marketing scam.

It was not. I paid a small fee to join, and was free to purchase merchandise through the Tradevest catalogs, or to use their travel services.

During the time Tradevest was operating, my wife and I spent almost $4,000 with them, mostly on travel for her business.

We received the travel and other competitively priced stuff when we bought it. The kicker was that we would also receive an annuity, that when it matured in 15-20 years, would be worth the $4,000 that we had spent. Not a bad deal!

We did receive the annuity. I got statements every few years from the insurance company that handled the annuity, and last year I cashed them out.

Like I said earlier, I refuse to believe I was the only one who didn't get screwed by the "evil Tradevest scam".

Tradevest seemed like a pretty good idea. Instead of spending money on advertising, they rebated that amount back to the customer in the form of annuities.

I heard rumors that someone took off with Tradevest's money, but I don't really know that. Maybe the annuities just cost too much or the operation had other financial flaws. I would be interested in hearing if anyone has first hand knowledge of why it folded.

So, there may or may not be "smoking guns" laying arount at C/S, but Tradevest isn't one of them in my experience.

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Hope this helps

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Is that familiar or what??

What's your agenda? We have heard multitudes of stories about Tradvest that completely contradict what you are telling us.

I think we need old Steve-a-reeno,Eric Cartman author-o-ti here right now.

Why would twenty or more other people state that this was a multi-level scheme and give great detail of their participation, the highly inflated prices, and the complete loss of all their money if it weren't true?

Unless, of course, you were one of the top bananas, maybe like J and P, and who knows, maybe all you guys did protect yourselves.

I dunno, that "hope this helps" line, it just sent a sick sensation through the pit of my stomach and a cold chill just came over my keyboard.

My nose itches and the fur is standing up on the back of my black cat's back.

I'm putting on my best garlic necklace.

Katie

You would receive $4000 after 20 years of interest? What will $4000 be worth 20 years from now? Not such a great return for your consumer loyalty. I get a better deal from the airlines.

Scam or not they folded. Lazaris recommended them. Bad advice from the great one. They recommended an MLM to magicians to ensure that they wouldn't be destitute in their old age. Huh? I thought magick would provide that insurance.

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We did receive the annuity. I got statements every few years from the insurance company that handled the annuity, and last year I cashed them out.

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Tradevest seemed like a pretty good idea. Instead of spending money on advertising, they rebated that amount back to the customer in the form of annuities.

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They rebated the advertising costs back to the customer? Why do you have to wait 20 years for annuities, why cant you just get very low prices at the point of purchase?

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I heard rumors that someone took off with Tradevest's money, but I don't really know that. Maybe the annuities just cost too much or the operation had other financial flaws. I would be interested in hearing if anyone has first hand knowledge of why it folded.

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No, from my understanding the people at the top of the pyramid ran off with all the dough.

As I understand it nobody including Jach and Peny ever denied that.

In fact it is my understanding that an announcement was made to the tradevest participants to that effect. I understand the tradevest participants were told that the money was gone. period.

What is unclear however is whether or not they profited from the loss of those lower on the pyramid who were also followers.

I have heard of several people who suffered a financial loss from tradevest.

You are the only person who reports a success story.

What I don't understand is how you could have cashed out when there was nothing to cash out according to Jach and Peny.

The big question for me has always been did they profit financially off of the loss of their followers.

The information you reveal hear Frank suggests thatperhaps they did after all.

If Jach and Peny made public announcements that Tradevest was bankrupted by their business partners running off with the loot and if you infact did "cash out" last year then Jach and Peny deliberately about the state of this "business".

My questions is have to do with whether or not with Tradevest Jach and Peny commited business fraud. Did Jach and Peny criminally deceive people?

Did Jach and Peny "cash out" of Tradevest?

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there may or may not be "smoking guns" laying arount at C/S, but Tradevest isn't one of them in my experience.

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Wait Frank! don't go away yet. All of this can be easily settled if you would just kindly provide som information that must be readily at your disposal.

1. The name of the insurance company that held the annuities.

2. The name of the entity [no pun intended] who is cut the check was it Tradevest? or another business or an individual?

3. The name of the bank on the check

If you can provide that information, and it all checks out to vindicate Jach and Peny you would have done them a great service and helped many people at find some peace of mind.

Its one thing that they were nasty, but perpetrating a financial fraud on trusting followers..thats horrible to believe.

If you can provide that information, we can at least establish once and for all that Tradevest was not the multilvel marketing scam that we thought.

Further, since your post raises more serious questions than ever about the very real possiblity that Jach and Peny lied to the Tradevest participants about the money being gone and like you, cashed out at a later date.

So please Frank it would only take a minute to post and you would be helping alot of people.

As I said, your post about cashing out raises my level of sucpicion more than it lowers it because of the very real possiblity that if you cashed out...so did they.. and the deception was worse than once thought.

Cheers,

I see that I've been promoted to the C/S inner circle by some of you. All by virtue of not being screwed by Tradevest, and describing my own experiences.

I dug out my old financial records, and here is the story:

My purchases according to my Tradevest statement were between 4/10/87 and 6/12/87. The original annuity was issued by Bradford National Life Insurance Company, 771 Corporate Drive, Lexington, KY 40503. The contractholder on the original certificate was Bluegrass Trust Securities Company.

Several years ago I received a notice that Conseco Live Insurance Company, 11815 N. Pennsylvania St., Carmel, IN 46032, had taken over the annuity contract.

They are the ones who cut me the check last year. I wasn't able to easily find the check stubs to identify the actual bank used. But I got the cash.

It seem obvious to me that C/S had no intention of scamming Tradevest subscribers. While the company was solvent, they must have been providing the annuities as promised.

I have been involved with multi-level marketing companys in the past, never really successfully. I don't believe Tradevest was that type of operation, as I don't remember having to sell shit to my family and friends to succeed.

Maybe some of the C/S staff got annuities equal to their purchases, and maybe cashed them in 15 years later like me, but so what? I assume that after whatever financial disaster happened to Tradevest, they were unable to fulfill contracts to some who participated.

Like I said, look elsewhere for the smoking gun.

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Like I said, look elsewhere for the smoking gun.

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That's kinda like telling us to look elsewhere for water in the midst of a downpour.

I'm with Jeremiah on this, now it seems likely that Con:Sin did profit from Tradevest at the expense of the faithful followers.

Lazaris could clear all this up, he not only endorsed the scheme, but knows everything. Maybe when he gets back from tip toeing through the tulips with Peny and Michaell he'll inform us.

That brings up the question as to why Con:Sin has not arrived here under their own identities and spoken to clarify any of these issues.

Oh, right, we aren't supposed to disrespect Jach's privacy. He's more important than the rest of us.

It just seemed to fit with this thread.

The Year of Mystery is it? That's the most on the money thing I've heard out of Con:Sin for a long time.

Of course, Peny was already ill when Jach/Zaris deemed it so, and given that the Loving Entity didn't find it important to provide any clues as to the outcome of her illness, I suppose one could imagine that Jach's mind was focused on mystery.

I wonder why L had no problem giving investment advice, but didn't think it necessary to mention that Peny had bought a one way ticket?

Speaking of tickets...isn't it odd how L never seems to get around to letting people know not to throw their money away on cancelled events? That orb sure can be useless sometimes.

So many mysteries, and so little time.

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Scam or not they folded. Lazaris recommended them. Bad advice from the great one. They recommended an MLM to magicians to ensure that they wouldn't be destitute in their old age. Huh? I thought magick would provide that insurance.

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I too attended the first Tradevest promotional meeting. It didn't feel right to me, and it didn't make sense in terms of "mapmaker, reality creator, dreamweaver" etc. Still doesn't.

MLMs are known to be shakey enterprizes, but the endorsement of "Lazaris", the all loving and wise one, caused many people to buy into something that they would have ordinarily dismissed as a shady deal.

And then it folded, while C:S finances flourished. Houses in Beverly Hills and Lake Arrowhead, a prime location for a new gallery, and seminars became bigger affairs in S.F. hotels rather than the original spots in Marin.

Glad you didn't get burned. Also, those of us who have been posting here for a while have acknowledged that there was some good in "Lazaris's" teachings. But as far as spiritual teaching goes, there's no room for the the negative clutter that is clearly evident in C:S, and in the words and methods of L. No spiritual teacher with integrity would so thoroughly invade and permeate the psyche and soul of true believers.

Sincerely,
Jade

You keep talking about a smoking gun, as though we need one. How about all the smoking souls? Who got a return on that investment, and why was it ever made?

You seem to want to use your $4,000 check as some kind of mitigation of the damage done by this group. I think our souls, hearts, and minds are worth quite a bit more than that.

I can't fathom why you would want to excuse these people regardless of your unique windfall.

I note you haven't been posting, is that because you are attending to inevitable details?

Since you have opened the door by coming here, why not tell us more about your interactions with Con:Sin. Do you have a fairy tale to which will enthrall and entertain us? Maybe you have some stories about all the wonderful loving and important contributions you witnessed Peny making to society. Surely the most wonderful woman in the world, the most powerful magician in the Universe must have left some kind of legacy besides one dead husband and another wandering around dazed and confused, left to the care of handlers with big agendas.

Since you are quick to provide counterpoint, surely you must have some other compelling reasons for your support for Peny than that 4 grand.

So, do tell us, what about the good?

Katie

My reference to a "smoking gun" was to inform you that your focus on Tradevest as some kind of evil plot may be misdirected.

It was not meant to defend C/S or Peny, or to invalidate or minimize your own negative experiences with them.

Tradevest seemed like a pretty good idea at the time I signed up for it, and still does. I'm surprised that the business model of it hasn't been tried again. Especially since a theft was supposedly the only reason for its failure.

The "good" I have referred to remains my experience of Lazaris as my friend and spiritual teacher. It refers to my own experience of leading a more elegant, magical, love filled, hope filled existance because of him.

Of course, maybe you and others on this site are right. Maybe Jach is some sort of spiritual savant who, maybe with a committee of co-conspirators, made up the Lazaris material solely for their own personal gain.

Maybe he is a great actor and is using that oh so scary Silva Mind Control and some kind of black magical hypnotic spells that completely overpower the wills (and Higher Selves) of us poor hopeless bastards who still listen to him.

I certainly wouldn't know since I am one of those who did give him my full permission to hypnotize/impact me.

By the way, Lazaris has referred to 2001 as the "Year of Mystery" for several months.

Congratulations -- you HAVE learned to create your own reality!

In your head.

The fact that you were a Tradevest customer (not an MLM-scammed Lazaris-trained Tradevest pushing "Associate") -- and that ONE of the insurance companies [to whom Tradevest, by contract -- was FORCED to release your annuity *while still in business*]: *ACTUALLY* followed United States Law and made good on that annuity --

means -- ALL TOGETHER YOU GUYS:

Nothing more than -- unconscious monkey poop.

You have expressed your distinct need to see Werner Erhard's violent emotional abuse of: est cult seminar attendies and staff -- and his *extremely* violent physical abuse of his wife and children (while giving EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE seminars on SUCESSFUL FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS as: "just going back into private life".

And THE HUNGER PROJECT, Frank?! LOL! Honey. In a 1985 article, Forbes Magazine summed up the Hunger Project as: "(Very long on Werner's garbage -- and very, very short on "ending hunger by the year 2000)". It was a fake charity scam to spread Werner's Jesus image Frank -- virtually *every cent* earned went to push his shit in the 'Hunger Briefed' faces of more over-fed, well off, guilt-vulnerable americans -- specifically to get them to worship Werner and THEREBY enroll in his LAZARIS-LIKE perpetual seminar series!

Not one cent went to change the *actual* state of hunger on this planet! JESUS -- to use starving people like that to blow up your own savior image AND financial net worth -- by claiming to help them?! And then have done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING effective about ending hunger by the year 2000, Frank? :0| AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! |

You're a cult dildo for believing that Jesus rap. You know that Frank -- we ALL were.

Look at the state of hunger in Africa RIGHT NOW -- after the G.D. turn of the century -- IT'S FAR WORSE -- WITH *GOD DAMNED AIDS* ADDED TO THE MIX!! -- and shut the poopy panties up about it -- UM-K? We were ALL John Denver plastic Gandi fake do-gooder cult Paw things. Get over that -- and stop using the idiotic "Hunger Project" to prop Werner's violent, manipulative evil cult behavior up!

ehem.

No one, sane -- reading your posts would doubt your expressed distinct need to see your self as: NOT an abuse blind *violent* cult junkie, Frank.

You have distinctly expressed your need to not experience anger in the face of a very emotionally and socially violent, abusive Lazaris cult Outer Reality right here, now -- *outside* your head.

And that is, indeed -- OK!

But it makes me feel *very sad* for you -- and for anyone who would buy your cotton candy view of the spiritual and emotional blood, guts, -- death -- and now suicide all around us *right now*.

Be here and now Frank.

Try and be here -- here and now. Think and *feel* about what is going on -- and has gone on -- here -- now -- outside your head.

If you can at this point in your -- in our collective (sheesh.. )-- *abusive* spiritual cult career.

We don't need the cult abuse to grow spiritually.

But we do need to be able to feel our spark, our conscience and inevitable intense human anger about the abuse -- inorder to release from it's repeating agonizing pattern -- and finally heal from it.

It's time to heal Frank -- it's time to feel socially -- *outside* our heads.

Get this Frank -- New Age cult ha-A-A-A-A-armonious, live-in-yer-head social castration is now a worldwide PROBLEM.

And Eric Theodore Cartman just *may* be The Way.

Steve
sb6@altavista.com

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By the way, Lazaris has referred to 2001 as the "Year of Mystery" for several months.

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You missed my point on this. Peny has evidently been ill since Sept or Oct of last year. Jach already knew what they were facing when he named this the year of Mystery. He didn't at the time know for sure whether Peny would live or die. That is my speculation.

I hope you are not swallowing the implied bs that Peny just unexpectedly popped off in her sleep a week ago. She has been missing for months, and when asked about it, Jach said she was fine and happily working on other projects. Does that seem factual to you now, in light of recent events?

Let me tell you Frank, you and others. It's time to take your heads out of the sand and get real. I'm right with Steve on this one.

Con:Sin has painted this pretty picture which a lot of people seem to be blindly accepting. This moving scene where Peny quietly and unexpectedly breaths her last breath, then the loving physical farewells, and then the brave and joyful exit of hubby number 2. All is well and joyful, if a tad bit distracting. Everything will be right back to normal any minute now. In the meantime, let's all remain cool and silent, and no thinking or discussion, thank you very much.

Sorry Frank. Do I have to paint you a picture, or can you allow your long fenced in mind to draw some conclusions of it's own?

Here, here Steve,...you crack me up.!! Problem is I'm at work!!! I gotta learn to shuusssh myself, but you make that difficult!

I'd forgotten some of that *stuff* about Werner, it was so long ago... thanks..
What a long strange trip it's been.cult surfin' all these years...

and Yeah,...Katie, that point I made about the 2001 yr. of mystery was missed as well. That was precisely my point,,,,JachA** knew he wuz gunna have some HECKOFA dooozzie year THIS year...may as well start coveruin' it up from the VERY beginning... doesn't he usually come out with the prophecies in like November/december,, we guess she was pretty ILL at that point.

AND, no-one answered my inquiry about what the tape sez about the "energy" of April/May I know the year is usually broken up into segments, so they can sell ONE more seminar eh.?.. energy of the first half of the year energy of the second half....

HOW SPECIAL of jach to think ahead and contemplate enough to name it the year of mystery....As far as I'm concerned the MYSTERY IS DONE.!!! aside from any mystery the Florida govt./police need deal with regarding the vast wealth/taxes? and cult issues they may be *mistified* about at the moment..
but for the ex-believers, and "transitioning" believers I think WE should name it now for ourselves.!!!!! How's about the YEAR JACH COMES CLEAN..!!

And Jade,
WELCOME BAAACK, and Do tell.... I never heard of Tradevest till recently, and if you were at the beginning, you must know quite a bit. Lemme get this straight, in the very BEGINNING.!! Bizzarus was channeling through to URGE peepull to invest in this????

I was just starting to look into the idea that L. might just have been a valid entity just in the very beginning, but now this news flies in the face of THAT idea.
Please confirm what year was that when Tradevest was introduced...How greedy, and manipulative, no matter WHEN!! but how much more sick..if...

And Frank if it is true that you did get $ and not manys others did , if any at all, then I agree with what Jeremiah says that there are many many more questions here than answers...

Audrey

Tradevest only attracted interest and participation because it was associated with "Lazaris." Jach made the presentation, but an employee told me that the Orb wanted people to have security in their old age, and this investment would help provide that. Some interesting magic, huh.

Love,
Jade

This goes under the "for what it's worth category."

1. I have a friend who was involved in Tradevest and she, too got her money back. Now that is not to say that the whole thing was handled in a great way, only to say she got money back.

2. I don't think Jach named 2001 the year of mystery knowing Peny was sick. I remember getting all of the years for the 90's in 1991 or something and it seems like I have heard the names of the years for the next few years but they sort of blend to me so I don't put that much stock in them per se.

3. That said, I do not believe that Peny just died. I heard from too many people how bad she looked at Millenium and how she had trouble walking. I think it was telling that she disappeared at the time Jach cancelled the West Coast events. A telling fact was that on her birthday so many people posted birthday wishes in the forum, but not the Orlando gang or Jach. It was if they knew she would not be reading them so why bother. I just wonder why we can't be told this. It really bothers me.

Welcome.

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1. I have a friend who was involved in Tradevest and she, too got her money back. Now that is not to say that the whole thing was handled in a great way, only to say she got money back.

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My understanding is there is a world of difference between a tradevest customer and a tradevest "sales associate"..

Maybe Steve can explain this better [the spirit of Cartmen compels you, Steve]

As I understand it the Tradevest sales associates were in the pyramid but the customers were just buying from a catalogue.

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2. I don't think Jach named 2001 the year of mystery knowing Peny was sick. I remember getting all of the years for the 90's in 1991 or something and it seems like I have heard the names of the years for the next few years but they sort of blend to me so I don't put that much stock in them per se.

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Lazaris names the years, according to Jach he has nothing to do with it..

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3. That said, I do not believe that Peny just died. I heard from too many people how bad she looked at Millenium and how she had trouble walking. I think it was telling that she disappeared at the time Jach cancelled the West Coast events. A telling fact was that on her birthday so many people posted birthday wishes in the forum, but not the Orlando gang or Jach. It was if they knew she would not be reading them so why bother. I just wonder why we can't be told this. It really bothers me.

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yeah, creepy. I think Susan is onto part of it when she posits that they are the subject of a police investigation and cannot discuss it.

As you say they do owe an explination regardless.

Cheers,

Jeremiah

And thanks for the welcome....

Oh golly, so there are different classes of Tradevest members?

Well that is further back than I care to go. but I do recall my friend getting a check in the last year or so. of course maybe her catalog merchandise got waylaid. And my friend was approached about the most recent MLM plan. I think name was Quovardis or something...so apparently they weren't disgrunted "associate"....

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And my friend was approached about the most recent MLM plan. I think name was Quovardis or something...so apparently they weren't disgrunted "associate"....

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I remember hearing something about Quovadis, do you have any details about it or how your friend was approached?

A few years ago a couple told me that Michaell North had called them at home and pitched what was in essence a MLM deal. Fortunately the couple didn't fall for it.

I dismissed it as impossible.. thought he must have gotten it wrong.. ha.. no such luck.

So Quavadis? anyone?

Cheers,

Jeremiah