In his email Jach explains Michaell's suicide with the following:

quote:

---

Peny and Michaell, in the richness and depth of their
> love and intimacy, had
> an agreement that if one of them died, the other would
> follow as soon as possible.

---

Peny, Michaell and Jach organize their lives around communication with a non physical entity.

And yet at the crux of this suicide pact seems to lie the belief that intimacy and love is less profound between the spiritual and physical worlds.

The belief seems to be that in order to love a person fully and experience that intimacy fully both parties must be alive together or dead together.

Thats fine, many people in the "consensus" believe just that.

However,

Peny talked about the depth of love and intimacy between herself and Lazaris and yet Lazaris was non physical during that period she was physical..certainly.

CS is heavy handed about marketing Lazaris love and caring. "Forever and a day...etc"

The whole nexus of their marketing plan is that love and intimacy with the unseen is not only possible but already established and readily available in the form of Lazaris.

Yet Jach Peny and Michaell seemed to believe that the membrane between physical and non physical existence is a barrier to love and intimacy?

There is also the issue of what Lazaris [although not just Lazaris but what even consensus science teaches] that time and space are illusions of this 3 maybe 4 dimensional universe.

Lazaris teaches, intelligently and coherently [imo] that we are multidimensional beings.

As multidimensional beings, death is an expansion beyond the physical where the restrictions of time and space do not apply.

We are spiritual beings having a human experience.

With death, that experience expands beyond the physical but does not preclude the experience of the physical.

In other words we don't "loose" anything. We gain perspectives beyond the physical without loosing the option of a physical perspective.

A less dense perspective perhaps, but from all reports that is a delightful way to experience the physical world.

Consciousness is multidimensional.

Lazaris talks about how when your die friends and relatives who are still "alive" greet you because you have expanded your awareness of your own multidimensional nature.

It seems that with physical death, according to Lazaris, the distinctions become much less rigid between "life" and "death".

Yet in light of all of this profound [again imo] teaching about the multidimensional nature of us spiritual beings having a human experience, Jach, Michaell and Peny make a suicide pact?

here is another strange thing:

Time and space are illusions. Thus any experience of seperation is an illusion.

It doesn't make ANY spiritual or metaphysical sense to slay yourself in order to continue to experience a relationship with a loved one you experienced while physical.

Further.

Since time and space are illusions, it makes no sense to "hurry up" to be with someone who has died.

Michaell North could have lived to be 170 and at the "moment" of his death chosen to make it "the moment" that Peny died physically and the two of them could have experienced their "covenant" without any loss of physical life.

Lazaris lucidly taught that time is an illusion. Lazaris pointed out that one way to conceptualize time outside of a linear framework is to think of time as a series of points of consciousness.

Not only that but as I understand what Lazaris teaches, you don't have to die to change your experience of linear time to something more exponential and multidimensional.

Peny wrote about communicating clearly with the dead in the forwards to some of those books.

Some might argue that "yeah, all that is true but they must have been going for some esoteric intensity that they had a secret handle on."

Maybe, but doubtful.

It is disturbing to think that all those people in the forum having the same thoughts and questions I just expressed are most likely being manipulated into silence by the gang.

We must allow for the possiblity that there wasn't really a covenant after all. That is less showy and dramatic but certainly a possibility.

Another possible version of events has to do with Peny being unable or unwilling to grok and apply metaphysics to her own at one time promising life, driven by delusion and paranoia, simply died.

Maybe Jach and CS never took to heart what Lazaris said about death not being a failure and that death is not a shameful act. Not knowing how to handle the questions and expectations decided to hide.

Maybe Michaell overwhelmed with grief and in a confused state simply killed himself.

Maybe we will never know.

At this point I have a hard time buying this Adonis and Venus story they are putting out now.

The thing that really disturbs me if this suicide pact did in fact exist is how the pressure to fulfill the "covenant" affected Michaell in the moments after Peny's death.

Did he really want to end his life or was he afraid to go on with his life without honoring his "commitment"?

I sincerely hope that he wanted to die with an open and complete awareness and that there wasn't a circuit of psychological pressure to end his life because he promised he would.

Jeremiah

Thanks for so clearly elucidating the descrepancies between the Inner Circle's bahavior and the teachings.

Another issue: In response to the group that Katie and I became part of at the Millennium Celebration, "Lazaris" stated that a "convenance" is not between people but with our Unseen Friends. Of course the fact that Jach uttered those words while claiming to be channeling doesn't mean squat to me, but what do the true believers think about this contradiction? Oh, I forgot - the Inner Circle gets to make their own rules.

I found this web site a few days ago after doing an internet search under Peny North. My search was inspired by alot of confusion and questions and basically no answers (and fear of asking for answers) on the whole situation at Concept Synergy - Peny's death, her disappearance from the Forum, and other things that didn't add up that I won't get into now. When I did my search, one of the hits that came up was this site and I want to let you know I am glad it exists. I have gotten alot of insight and information that I can't conceive of. in my wildest imagination, ever getting from Concept Synergy. If it were not for this sight, I still would not know of Michaell's suicide
(a major red flag for me that I need to discern what is going on at Concept Synergy since for me this is starting to border on the majorly bizarre).

I am a current Forum member. Somewhere in one of your threads here someone asked if there was anyone who did not receive Jach's E-mail of Michaell's suicide. I did not. It is currently not directly mentioned on the Forum unless I somehow missed it. People are posting condolences to Jach and the staff for the loss of both Peny and Michaell and in these posts there are references to Michaell's death and the agreement Peny, Michaell and Jach had over who would stay and who would die. But at this point, had I not found this site and read your copy of Jach's E-mail about Michaell's death, I be frantically sifting throught these posts in the Forum, trying to piece together what happened, why, how, etc.
and feeling very confused, frustrated and powerless.

Thank you for the posts here that help to make some sense of all this as well as help people by giving them information with which to discern with.

Will post more later.

What a wonderful surprise to see you here!

Yes, incredulity is a word and one that is quite apropos when discussing the Con:Sinners.

So how is that other MMMer doing?

Welcome to the site!

Amazing how much fear people have around this so-called spiritual organization!

So you weren't one of the chosen few who received that email. That's probably an indication that you have demonstrated the ability to think for yourself.

Did Jach really think that others wouldn't find out about it? His intuition - which is supposedly so acute that he depends upon it to decide who is "appropriate" to allow into the Forum - must be failing him. It didn't tell him that some of the folks he sent the email to may be "unsafe".

thank you AGAIN tedward, from the bottom of my irish heart for providing the space for communication.
my love to you,

My heart is filled with joy to see you here, it's been to long fellow traveller!!

My very very best to you and your beautiful Mother. I think of you both so often!

What a gorgeous Mother's Day Miracle to have you here.

I'll be back later.

Thanks so much for writing and letting us know that the site has value to you.
Information is always a good thing, especially when a significant person has died.

We haven't spent much time discussing this bit about Jach "selecting" a certain group to recieve the email about Michaell's suicide. What a mental manipulation and shaming tactic that was!

By setting aside a certain group as being "good enough" to hear this information he creates a set-up where in order to remain in his favor, they will now be obliged to support his premises and perspective on Michaell's suicide. Also, there is the built in judgement against anyone who doesn't have the right kind of "heart" to accept his version.

This is world class mind control and manipulation.

I'm sorry to know that you and evidently others were shamed in this way Dogstar, and I trust you will hand that bag of filth back to those who presented it to you.

One big thing though. Did Jach write that email, or did it come from his "handlers".

Is the wicked witch dead, or has she always really been one of those hiding behind the curtain.

I think it's time to pull that curtain open and see who is lurking back there, and find out what they have been and are up to. It isn't too difficult to figure out who they are.

Many have hypothesized that Jach simply is not up to the chore of having devised and implemented this grand scam.

Is it possible that all along he has had a team of advisers, a group who has been practicing the first of the 48 Laws of Power "never outshine the master?".

I think it's time to start paying attention to who is the real master down there in Orlando.

Since I pulled out the book, maybe it's not a bad idea to mention some of the other laws.

quote:

---

Never put too much trust in friends, learn how to use your enemies.

Conceal your intentions.

Always say less than necessary.

Learn to keep people dependent on you

Use selective honesty and generosity to disarm your victim.

Use absense to create respect and power

Concentrate your forces

Play on people's need to create a cultlike following.

Play on people's fantasies

Create compelling spectacles.

Work on the hearts and minds of others.

---

For those who don't know, the 48 Laws of Power is a blueprint for winning through manipulation, based on the tactics of Machiavelli.

For those, like myself, who consider manipulation to be wrong, maybe it's time to ponder whether or not Con:Sin practices manipulation, and right now, more to the point, who exactly might be the student of Machiavelli.

I have come to the belief that Jach has never taken an independent step in his life, that he does what he is told or otherwise influenced to do by Peny.

Now I'm wondering very seriously who was pulling Peny's strings. It's time to start deconstructing that stage and find out who the puppet masters really are.

Has anyone considered the possibility that Michaell's suicide was motivated more to get away from someone/s, than to be with Peny?

Maybe he knew all too well what he was in for now that he had served the purpose of the puppeteers, and didn't find his future prospects too appealing.

It might be good to consider that Con:Sin members and true believers are now left to eat from the plate that Michaell very profoundly rejected.

It's all very convenient to accept this canned explanation of Mike's spectacular exit, but how many have allowed themselves to rest on other possibilities. For all we know, he might just have had his bags packed for him and been given his walking papers weeks ago when it became evident that Peny was about to check out herself.

Mind control is a very powerful and insidious thing. Those of us who have studied it know all to well that it is practiced by Con:Sin, and very successfully so. Who else could succeed in creating an atmosphere of celebration around a death and alleged suicide and even control the way others think and respond to it?

I think it's time to start thinking and considering these things. Through all of this, most of us have been operating out of some level of belief in the Con:Sin spin, and I think that in itself is dangerous.

It's time to start paying attention to who is issuing the edicts and has taken control of the communications coming out of the Orlando crystal mansion.

I note again that the Michaell suicide email DID NOT come from Jach's email account.

Thanks for your post Dogstar, you really have me thinking here.

Katie

Need I say more???

quote:

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Assume formlessness

---

quote:

---

Are they really dead? Or did they just opt out of an increasingly unpleasant situation they created?
Was it a death (of what cause?) Didn't they have some children?

---

Answers: yes, they are really dead (i spoke with the coroner today). Peny died of natural causes. Michaell killed himself with gas.

Welcome to the message board.

Justfacts, are you telling us that the coroners office provided you with the cause of death?

That is shocking to me, unless you are a law enforcement officer.

From what I know about autopsies, the results take weeks and even months to come back given the number of tests that are required to complete an autopsy report.

I'm also shocked that the coroners office would provide you with those details.

Well, whatever, and whyever, I'm glad to have the details.

Nice to see you both here.

Yes, these are serious questions you ask, and amazing isn't it how fast you can ask a question and receive an answer?

That is quite an endorsement for the value of asking questions.

I'm sure all will be answered in due time, especially if we keep asking, and some of us will keep asking. Ask and ye shall receive, isn't that the promise?

Thanks for your much more realistic perspective than the Romeo, Juliet, and the Orb continuing myth offered up by the Con:Sinners.

My joke for today, for those who read the news is "Imagine an article in People magazine where the story reads: Robert Blake's wife was found shot in the head today while her well-known actor husband was busy retrieving his gun from the restaurant where they had just eaten.

Please do not speculate or discuss this case out of respect for Mr. Blake's privacy..

Right!

It's definitely time for a big time reality check here. This story is the stuff tacky TV docu-dramas are made of.

And..therein lies my prediction.

It wouldn't be a bad thing though. Maybe it will take a well casted TV show to shock some into asking a question or two.

I hear that Sharon Gless is doing a good Peny imitation on Queer as Folk. Maybe "Lazaris" clued her in where while neglecting to mention a few vital details to Jach. She might be auditioning for the role of her career.

Why does everyone keep swallowing this story that Michaell and Peny had a suicide pact? Maybe the little rat just checked out out of fear and understanding that his role of lap dog had come to an end. Maybe he feared the handlers and how they might choose to handle him. Maybe he was helped along by those who didn't want to share the pie. Who knows, but inquiring minds want to know all the seedy details, because in them lies the truth about a very sick and seedy group of people.

Time for some illusion shattering here.

How phenomenally sad about his abandoned daughter. What price have others paid for that foul little ego romp of theirs?

We know a lot, but we sure don't know it all, so I'm asking once again.

Those in the know, time to spill all. Not because we are a bunch of voyeuristic gossips, but because those people assumed authority for our souls and spiritual lives.

It's time for full disclosure on the return we can expect from our investments. So far, our prospects are looking dimmer and dimmer.

Nice to meet you,

You wrote:

"Why does everyone keep swallowing this story that Michaell and Peny had a suicide pact?"

A Nancy Drew like thought crossed my mind today; once the will have been probated and becomes public information, we'll know without any doubt that there was no death pact if Peny left anything to Michaell; what need of material goods if a honeymoon by the sea of possibility had already been decided on?

"How phenomenally sad about his abandoned daughter."

I knew he'd been married, but not that he was a father--how brutally sad that that fact was deleted from his mysterious public persona.

My god, is not having a child one of the things one should be proud of, proclaim to the world, take great joy in? You can absolutely protect a child's privacy without wiping her very existence from your self created myth.

In the midst of all the cyber condolences flying to Florida, I hope Jach has had the decency to consider the feelings of North's daughter and send her a kind thought--might as well hope the moon is made of green cheese, I suppose.

flo

You wrote:

"Answers: yes, they are really dead (i spoke with the coroner today). Peny died of natural causes. Michaell killed himself with gas."

Since I'm getting unsavory images of North haplessly trying to end his life using a gas barbecue by the pool (or "cement pond" as I've come to think of it) or farting himself to death, could you elaborate a little?

Do you know if the "by the pool" bit in the death pact announcement was false, or did Michaell rig up an outdoor apparatus that allowed him to inhale gas via a mask?

quote:

---

Do you know if the "by the pool" bit in the death pact announcement was false]

---

nitrous oxide, and yes by the pool. i don't know about the apparatus.

to katie, no the coroner's office doesn't give this information out to the general public. and they didn't know about his daughter - i told them. my only reason for bringing it to light here is to show how cruel this organization is, and hopefully convince some people to walk away.

The fact that Michaell North's daughter was not notified by Jach, or that at the very least he did not provide the information to the authorities who could have notified her reeks.

It goes without saying that his abandonment of her reeks even worse. I know all too well the impact it has on a daughter to be abandoned and rejected by her father. If there is any consolation in this, maybe it is that she was relieved of the possibly worse damage he could have done by sticking around. Of course, she will never have the opportunity to know that. My heart goes out to her, and to all those who Michaell evidently abandoned in his quest for power, money, fame and glory. None of that could ever replace the experience of being a responsible loving parent.

So much of the filthy advice those bastards gave me about my own daughter now makes so much more sense. Their advice to me? Abandon her. She isn't worth your effort or attention. No bloody wonder they told me that!

Let his choice to cop out on life like a slimy little coward stand as a testament to the reality of his useless and foul existence. He may have made nothing of his life beyond the glowing endorsement of a plastic ball of light, but what you are telling us does reveal the negative impact the rotten little bastard had on those for whom he should have been responsible.

It is evident to me now that you are on some way personally affected by this situation on a deeper level than any of us. You must be if the coroner gave you this information.

In the face of your evident emotions, that you were moved to come here and post is very demonstrative to me of the trail of carnage these bastards have left in their wake.

For all our belly aching here, I know there are some who have had a lot worse treatment at the hands of those self-serving con-artists.

Thank you for participating in this process of opening eyes to the seedy underbelly of that crystal encrusted monster.

It occurs to me that you are the one in need of condolence. I send you mine, for whatever you may have lost, but most of all for what I suspect you have experienced and lived with for a long time.

If you have hope to enlighten others about the Con:Sins, you are not alone.

I have great faith that Truth and Justice will prevail.

Katie

Now, here's a fun thought. Is Michaell's daughter going to have to do battle with Jach to receive her rightful inheritance?

We are watching you Jach! Your days of "privacy" are over. You have been well compensated for your life as a public person, and now it's time to pay the piper.

From what you've posted, it appears you have information usually reserved for those who are close to the family involved, so please add my condolences to those Katie has already written (as anything I could add
would be gilding the lily.)

I'm sickened but not surprised that Jach hasn't contacted Michaell's daughter--I hope she's surrounded by those who care about her right now as she deals with her loss.

All the best and thank you for taking the time to provide information unavailable anywhere else.

quote:

---

A Nancy Drew like thought crossed my mind today; once the will have been probated and becomes public information, we'll know without any doubt that there was no death pact if Peny left anything to Michaell; what need of material goods if a honeymoon by the sea of possibility had already been decided on?

---

Yes, these are facts that will be made public regardless of the "specialness" Jach affords himself. It will be damned interesting to see those wills.

quote:

---

My god, is not having a child one of the things one should be proud of, proclaim to the world, take great joy in? You can absolutely protect a child's privacy without wiping her very existence from your self created myth.

---

This is one aspect of Peny's philosophy which now clarifies itself. Peny was no supporter of parenthood, no believer in the sacredness of the relationship between parent and child. I was swept into that philosophy myself momentarily while still under the ether.

I have long held that partners who support child abandonment are as guilty themselves as the one doing the abandoning. One can only hypothesize that Peny was so in need of complete and total adoration and attention from Micheall that she encouraged his breaking ties with his own child. Whatever his reasons, they are inexcusable. No child should be punished for the sins of their parents.

This is one big huge sickening bit of information that should not be disregarded.

quote:

---

In the midst of all the cyber condolences flying to Florida, I hope Jach has had the decency to consider the feelings of North's daughter and send her a kind thought--might as well hope the moon is made of green cheese, I suppose.

---

I have given up looking for decency from Jach. I hope his attorneys advise him appropriately, and that his daughter receives compensation for her loss. No amount of money can ever undo the impact of abandonment, but I sure hope she gets to find some consolation in her due share of Michaell's wealth.

Someone recently told me that Michaell came to Jach and Peny with a sizable chunk of change via a trust fund. I guess he bought his way into Peny's heart.

If this is true, then let's hope his daughter receives all that is her due, and loses nothing monetarily due to her father's sickness.

All the best to you flo. It's wonderful to read your posts.

Katie

quote:

---

Their advice to me? Abandon her. She isn't worth your effort or attention.

---

It saddens me to hear that. I hope for both your sakes you didn't take that advice.

As for my "involvement" with this situation, you are correct in surmising that I am, well, closer to this situation than the general public. I'm afraid I can't disclose much more at this time while the investigation is still ongoing; in fact I may have disclosed too much already.

I encourage anyone who has information regarding this situation (e.g. their advice to abandon your child, lies or inconsistencies from Con:Sin, etc.) to please contact the Orange County sheriff investigation division at 407.836.4020.

Like I said, there is an ongoing investigation into these recent events, so I urge you to cooperate with the authorities in any way you can.

I want to thank you for your posts here. I am glad to hear this is still being investigated by the authorities. There seems to be so much amiss here and to have it all swept under the rug while everyone ls lauding the triumph of all this feels very wrong to me. If the police find there is truly nothing to be concerned about at C:S fine - but if things are not on the up and up people deserve to know.

It just struck me that here we've all gone off on a big tangent, and left this very important topic with you and your family still up to your eyeballs in confusion and grief.

I state that as an assumption, but I feel it's a safe one.

It seems to me that it would be much more appropriate to address this issue of child abandonment by one of the stellar ones in this group that has such a stronghold on the hearts, minds, and souls of so many rather than getting into esoteric discussions about communication styles.

Maybe the diversion is deliberate.

I'm extremely interested to know what the faithful and true think about this information, that Michaell left behind a daugher to pursue his career as Peny's husband.

My fingers just about bleeding from my resistance to call Michaell's career what I really think it was, but since it appears we have some of delicate sensibilities amongst us I will refrain from my usual bluntness.

This is a question for those who are still amongst the faithful.

How do you reconcile the fact that we have in our presence someone who has alerted us to the fact that Michaell has an abandoned child?

Which one of you would be willing to bring that up for discussion in the Forum?

Which of you would not, and why not?

Is there anyone amongst us who finds this bit of information to be irrelevant to the evaluation of those who have gained the trust of many as highly evolved spiritual leaders?

I can only speculate here, but I have personal intimate experience with child abandonment, and I know the pain and confusion it has caused.

Anyone have any thoughts on this topic?

Justfacts, if this conversation is unwelcomed, or uncomfortable, please alert me immediately.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Katie:
Hi justfacts,

It just struck me that here we've all gone off on a big tangent, and left this very important topic with you and your family still up to your eyeballs in confusion and grief.

I state that as an assumption, but I feel it's a safe one.

It seems to me that it would be much more appropriate to address this issue of child abandonment by one of the stellar ones in this group that has such a stronghold on the hearts, minds, and souls of so many rather than getting into esoteric discussions about communication styles.

Maybe the diversion is deliberate.

I'm extremely interested to know what the faithful and true think about this information, that Michaell left behind a daugher to pursue his career as Peny's husband.

My fingers just about bleeding from my resistance to call Michaell's career what I really think it was, but since it appears we have some of delicate sensibilities amongst us I will refrain from my usual bluntness.

This is a question for those who are still amongst the faithful.

How do you reconcile the fact that we have in our presence someone who has alerted us to the fact that Michaell has an abandoned child?

Which one of you would be willing to bring that up for discussion in the Forum?

Which of you would not, and why not?

Is there anyone amongst us who finds this bit of information to be irrelevant to the evaluation of those who have gained the trust of many as highly evolved spiritual leaders?

...

Anyone have any thoughts on this topic?

Justfacts, if this conversation is unwelcomed, or uncomfortable, please alert me immediately.

Katie

---

Hi, Katie.

I personally think anyone abandoning a child they willingly created has to have either huge problems or is far less than decent.

I have seen some people make similar decisions and there is no question that has long-lasting impact on the child to varying degrees. THis is the saddest part of all, of course.

Sometimes the reasons can be almost justified (maybe there's a threat to a life, e.g.,) or maybe it's understandable, if not forgivable (e.g., too many pressures or angers or hassles.)

quote:

---

I already think Michael did the wrong thing so I don't really want to appear to defend him but, I do ask if all the facts are in. For instance, we don't know how old the child was and what the circumstances might have been. Before passing a "sentence," this would be helpful

---

No, I don't think so fingerprince, I'm not soliciting any more facts about someone who has nothing to prove to anyone. We all know that Michaell was with Peny for 20 odd years, and his approximate age, so we can be quite sure he didn't abandon a 25 year old!

What more facts do you need?

Michaell is not the only indictable person here. Jach, Peny, and all those close to the situation played too. In all those years,not one person stood up to mention how incredibly "unspiritual" this was?

My guess is that Peny demanded that Michaell turn his back on his family, just like all cult leaders do.

Peny had zero respect for families, I know this from my personal discussions with her on that topic.

My point in bringing all this up is not to put an innocent person on the spot here, it's to shine a light on Peny, Michaell and Jach, three people who have been held up BY LAZARIS as spiritually evolved souls.

I am asking you and other true believers how you reconcile this kind of anti-social behavior in your spiritual leaders?

I'm also asking how you reconcile Lazaris' endorsement of these people who it becomes increasingly apparent were a bit worse than just "human". They are rotten, greedy, and self-serving to the core.

Why does this wonderful, loving, helpful, impeccable friend of ours foist these low lifes off on the world?

That is my question.

We don't need the private details of anyone's life to figure that out.

You must remember one of the self esteem tapes, J/L mentions Self Esteem rises from the relationship with the father, and that if one has had feelings of abadonment, or lack of a loving relationship with the father one will have difficulties with self esteem, and goes on in this tape to suggest that love is "earned" from the father, the mother loves unconditionally, and so on.

This tape was pretty fundamental, and I'd imagine that pretty much anyone who'd been involved with L. teachings for more than a brief time would have audited this tape.

My point is that there is no way outta this inconsistency, and terrible crime, especially that it appears from what's been written here that Jach was not forthcoming with the officials about this abandoned (obviously young)daughter.

Like you state above, Jach is just as much a partner in crime in this sick series of life choices they all made.

My opinion is they had a sort of three-pronged marriage going, Jach's mansion is right next door to Peny's etc. and as far as I can tell pretty much all aspects of their lives were inextricably bound.

It also strikes me as terribly inconsistent to know that these folks were so ultra right wing,....well what's one of the mantras of that group...ummm something like the IMPORTANCE of the FAMILY in AMERICA, isn't it their beleif that the breakdown of the FAMILY UNIT is what is taking AMERICA to hell in a handbasket???
oh yeah, it's those white trash folks abandoning their childerns, not the rich... silly me I almost forgot the favorite premis of the ultra right.... double standards..oops...

Chow,
Audrey

It would appear that the two Misters and Mrs Peny, as the wise ones in the Universe have written a new map for us all in regard to parent child relationships.

Parenthood means nothing. It isn't even a responsibility.

Not too long before Forum Storm we had a discussion going in which Peny proposed that children should be permitted to divorce their parents. She also stated her thoughts that the parents of the Columbine kids should not be held responsible for the actions of their children. She also strongly encouraged me to "divorce" my daughter when she and I were having problems.

Peny it seems had an issue with parenthood.
Now we can understand why.

I will admit to having gotten swept into her thinking, even to the extent that I did cut off my daughter for quite some time.

The conversations we had on these topics were quite interesting, but the bottom line is that Peny never agreed that parents had any real impact on the lives of their children, and that children should be free to pick and choose other parents should they find the ones they were born to to be in any way objectionable.

It all makes perfectly clear sense to me now why she was so invested in dismissing the significance of parents.

Think how lucky we all are that Peny never lived up to her promise as a powerful, world-changing magician.

I'd hate to be living in a world of her creation.

Sadly though, there are some who still are.

My greatest hope for Michaell's daughter is that she can come to the understanding that her father was deeply involved in a mind controlled situation where greed and power reign supreme over decency.

I suspect that as time moves on more facts about this very creepy relationship will be revealed, and it is my hope that M's daughter will find some place of peace and full and complete understanding that her abandonment was not due to any flaw or wrong on her part.

I send her all my best wishes for clarity and peace on this issue.

I send the same to the remaining true blue who are having a hard time seeing through this world class act.

The set for this production is not really so pretty after all, not when you get up close and take a good look. It appears that it's been painted with a brush dipped into the hearts and minds of innocent people.

I am saddened to hear that Lauren and you had problems, and that it led to a separation for whatever amount of time.
Given our background, and not wanting to repeat the "Daughters of December " legacy I know that you must have had a very difficult time with that.
I do recall your telling me the level of dismay and angst you had regarding Peny's "advice".
I remember quite well what a wonderful relationship you had with Lauren, and of course relationships change, and people do grow apart, I know that given that very stong floor you and Ted had built will in the end make for a return tothe level of closeness you once had.

I do remember VERY well what Scientology espoused regarding the divorce from parents. They have an equally cold-detatched idea about it.
I moved away from home at a very young age due to the advice from them. See they knew that to get people into their FOLD they'd have to not have input from those who hold sway over emotions etc.

That type of emotional manipulation is so sick. It was a very difficult time in my life, one that impacted me for the rest of my life as well.

Divorce your children, so you don't have to put them through college, we have better ways for you to spend all your hard earned CASH, on these sparkly crystals ..

I am very certain that Jach will be exposed, and M's daughter WILL come to fully understand what happened, surely there are enough other cult deaths she must know about and realize the strength of this type of mind/body control.

Love,
Audrey

I would like to answer your question about how "other true believers reconcile this kind of anti-social behavior in your spiritual leaders?"

I never considered J/P & M to be spiritual leaders. I do not have all the Lazaris tapes nor have I been to all the seminars, hardly. So I can't say what the extent of Lazaris' praise for the big three is. From what I know, he said he came to talk to Peny. Does this confer special status on Peny? Many believed it did though I was not one of them (Lazaris has said of course that no one is special, all are unique but no one is special). I never knew Peny but from what you say (and I mostly believe you,) she was hardly a spiritual leader. What does this say about Lazaris? I don't know. If Lazaris had specifically said Peny is a great leader, to be followed, emulated and who speaks in his name, I would of course agree with you and abandon him as a fake. He never said that. He said he liked her. He said that way back when you liked her. Your opinion changed, maybe his has too. Neither one of us knows what he thinks now. As for Jach and Michaell, their status depends completely on what has been conferred on them by their followers. The fact that Lazaris channels through Jach does not necessarily mean that Jach is all-wise and all-knowing. Whether he actually hurts people is another question. People who projected spiritual leadership on him may feel hurt along with those who want him to live up to their ideals. Maybe he's just a human being like everyone else. Michaell of course was just a hanger-on. To judge Lazaris by his actions is ludicrous. His suicide speaks ill of what he learned from Lazaris. Many followers (believers) of Christ commit suicide, what does that say about Christ? Not much. To hear a teaching is one thing, to embody it is something else.

I still believe in Lazaris although I would be interested in hearing what he has to say about what has happened in the past few weeks. Somehow I don't think he will say much. Since it is our beliefs that create our reality, he will probably let us believe what we want.

TedC

You wrote:

quote:

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If Lazaris had specifically said Peny is a great leader, to be followed, emulated and who speaks in his name, I would of course agree with you and abandon him as a fake. He never said that.

---

No, I don't believe Lazaris ever said that Peny should be emulated or treated as a leader. But they never discouraged it either. Surely they were aware that people saw her that way, largely - if not totally - due to their descriptions of her.

Peny has put her interpretations of Lazaris' words in the Forum and then said she had spoken with Lazaris and they confirmed her interpretations. These are interpretation that I found to be very dubious. For example, Lazaris said on the 1999 tape (I think it was that one) that Americans need to come to grips with the fact that not everyone in the world shares our ideals and beliefs. Peny (and the Gang) interpreted that to mean that we should arm ourselves to the teeth because others don't have the respect for freedom or human life that we have. You can listen to Lazaris' own words to see if that makes sense to you.

This was one of my first significant feelings of doubt about Peny and Lazaris. I didn't believe for one second that Lazaris had verified her interpretation or that she even spoke to them. If she was lying about an alleged conversation with them. wouldn't they have an obligation to publically refute the claim? I would have if I were in their situation. This occurred, BTW, while I was a true believer and not pissed off at Peny.

You wrote:

quote:

---

He said he liked her. He said that way back when you liked her. Your
opinion changed, maybe his has too. Neither one of us knows what he thinks now

---

I do know what they thought of her as of 17 months ago. At the Millennium gathering, Lazaris gushed all over Peny. It was rather embarrassing, actually. This was years after Michaell's desertion of his daughter, years after TradeVest and during Peny's little ego-romp in the Forum with the object of her obsession.

You wrote:

quote:

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As for Jach and Michaell,
their status depends completely on what has been conferred on them by their followers

---

To some extent, yes, but certainly not completely. They have built themselves up as spiritually superior and Lazaris has done nothing to discourage these "projections". "Lazaris" also just happens to speak from Jach's perspective at seminars. Most significant, but not exclusively, is the case where "Lazaris" told a woman to distance herself from her mother. You can read about that on this page. Look for posts from Wiser Crone.

You wrote:

quote:

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Maybe he's just a human being like everyone else.

---

You're being really kind here.

You wrote:

quote:

---

I still believe in Lazaris although I would be interested in hearing what he has to say about what has happened in the past few weeks. Somehow I don't think he will say much. Since it is our beliefs that create our reality, he will probably let us believe what we want

---

The best way to "let" us believe what we want is to shut the F*** up. Why didn't they just "let" us believe what we wanted about Peny's character, instead of ramming their sycophantic, obsessive drivel down our throats? Why not just "let" us believe what we want about reality creation, Sirius, King Arthur, etc.? The death of Princess Diana? They got lots to say about anything that doesn't reflect poorly on Peny. They almost never spoke about weight issues, even though it's a major issue for many people.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Katie:
fingerprince,

No, I don't think so fingerprince, I'm not soliciting any more facts about someone who has nothing to prove to anyone. We all know that Michaell was with Peny for 20 odd years, and his approximate age, so we can be quite sure he didn't abandon a 25 year old!

What more facts do you need?

_________________________________________
"/b" "/quote"

Katie,

"Rush to judgement," is what the legal community uses when they admonish those who need to pass legal judgement who lack the facts.

All we know in here is that Michaell had a daughter (presumably.) None of us have any information about this and don't even know if it's true (though I tend to believe it.)

Sometimes people give up people (children) for adoption because they either have no interest or cannot afford or feel ill-suited to be a parent to that child. I, along with most people, in my estimation, feel that that act is an act of love and compassion. What's not to say that this happened in Michaell's life? Perhaps the child was a newborn and he wasn't married to it's mother and felt it would be best to step aside to let a loving couple raise her.

I could go on, but my tiny little neck is choking me...and my wish to offer some semblance of reason is being squeezed by your collar.

Damn you people are mean-spirited!! IT may well be that Michaell is all you suspect but the very least you can do is demonstrate an interest in gathering ALL the facts rather than continue to condemn someone just because you can't stand him.

I was in rooms with Michaell on many occasions. I don't remember ever making eye contact and certainly wasn't drawn to him. I could not understand his draw to Peny but, as in all relationships, I'm not supposed to, for it's not my call.

I really think that mentioning that Michaell had a daughter is good information. Speculation leading to condemnation w/o further data is magnificently small-minded, however. If you think Michaell was a worm because he was with Peny, fine. If you think he was a serpent because he committed suicide, that's your prerogative, too. But it would really behoove you to not pass wind just because you suspect him of eating some beans.

___________________________________________

I am asking you and other true believers how you reconcile this kind of anti-social behavior in your spiritual leaders?

I'm also asking how you reconcile Lazaris' endorsement of these people who it becomes increasingly apparent were a bit worse than just "human". They are rotten, greedy, and self-serving to the core.
_____________________________________________
"/b""/quote"

I, for one, know many, many people who have left children out of their lives. I cannot relate at all. I spent far more time with my son in the first five years of his life than his mother did. When she made some decisions that *I* considered selfish and made it extremely difficult for me to have the relationship I would have prefered, I suffered immensely...depressions and angers and guilt...some of which I still can conjure up. At one point she moved, with him, 300 miles without letting me know in advance. I remember a female friend at the time who, when I complained out of my pain and frustration that I shouldn't send her more money since she didn't even let me participate, she coldly told me that no matter what she did I should pay. I ended our friendship on that note. I wanted compassion and understanding; as it was, I continued to pay and even for a large portion of his four years of college.

So, Katie, I don't know how people can abandon their children since I haven't really felt that way (incidentally, my son's mother gave me the largest insult she could when she suggested her new husband should adopt our son. I could have strangled her! My love for my son was immense and she knew it.) As I said, I don't wish to defend Michaell and I don't condone what he is accused of. He's still just accused, however.

____________________________________________

It sounds to me as though you are just digging for one more loophole to stick your neck through to further choke off the blood flowing into your brain.

---

quote:

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If Lazaris had specifically said Peny is a great leader, to be followed, emulated
and who speaks in his name, I would of course agree with you and abandon him as a fake. He
never said that. He said he liked her. He said that way back when you liked her.

---

"Lazaris" said that Peny was such a bright spirit that he came to this reality to be with her. He said she attracted him because she was so evolved that she didn't need to return to this plane, but chose to because she knew her help would be needed.

Well we still have a reality full of the same problems and more, that existed when "Lazaris" popped into Peny's life in 1974. But looks like she decided her help is no longer needed.

I too have seen "Lazaris" gush over Peny, and I have heard him go gooey when talking to her, or referring to her on tapes. Furthermore didn't L and Peny talk almost daily.

So Ted, saying that L simply "liked" Peny is a huge understatement. The rest of us may have "liked" her at one time (most didn't know her) because she was promoted by L, and we trusted what he said.

Although "Lazaris" may never have said "Emulate Peny folks" he made it pretty clear that out of the billions of spirits on this plane, she was the brightest and bestest.
So brightly evolved that she was only here to help us, living a life that was unneccesary for her growth, sacrificing her place on a higher plane where she belonged. Like John Stossel says, "Give me a break!"

Best to you,
Jade