quote:

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From what I've been hearing, once Michaell got sucked into that vortex, he didn't have a chance.

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I can imagine that. As we have discussed previously, those closest to C:S, like employees have undoubtedly experienced the worst brainwashing. As Peny's spouse, Michaell was in even deeper.

quote:

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While I know of situations like you describe, that was not the case in this particular situation. Suffice to say that he wanted nothing to do with her, even when asked.

---

What a shame. Justfacts, thanks for presenting a clear picture of Michaell's abandonment of his daughter.

Does anyone suppose that this abusive parental behavior was countenanced by "Lazaris"? Certainly Michaell had plenty of access to L., surely enough to receive advice about his child's needs. Remember all the words about the father's love and how it negatively affects a person's self esteem when the father is rejecting or absent. Or maybe L had a few words for him on responsibility -- guess not. Or the hostile impact of suicide on those left behind.

Michaell denied the most instinctual form of adult love -- the love a parent feels for his/her child. Again, L's teaching seems to have the least effect on those with the most access? Again, there is even less than the simple decent behavior expected of the average person.

To think that Michaell's suicide was gussied up as some beautiful heroic romantic covenant reflects just how dumb Jach & Co. think their customers are.

I'm really sorry Justfacts. I have two grown daughters. The three of us are still very close. Michaell rejected one of life's greatest gifts, he must have been pretty lost inside.

Best to you
Jade

But if you have a response to my post that you'd rather email, I'm open to that.

Best to you,
Jade

quote:

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The idea is, if one is truly finished with their work here, then they are in a state where they can leave consciously and elegantly.

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Actually, as I understood it, "mapmakers" would be creating their reality this way too. Just more evidence that something is very wrong with "Lazaris" and C:S.

Gotta step in and say that I -- too think this interchange between fingerprince and Melinda holds *great* value in regard to the BIG topic in here -- abuse of *assumed* interpersonal spiritual authority.

Over my years with the orb -- I too had the opportunity to interact with two "Lazaris expert therapists" -- and this on merely a casual basis, just as Melinda alleges vis fingerprince.

Both these guys *took* INCREDIBLY innapropriate spritiual authority in our interactions -- it was scary *AS HELL*.

Fortunately I was not vulnerable -- enough to be sucked under by their shaming, controling IMO -- cult venom. So I kicked their asses -- shamelessly and left.

Melinda -- my unsolicited opinion? Drop this alleged "expert on the goodness of your soul".

All little "Lazaris" cult spinoffs -- IMO. The tell-tale sign? ABUSE OF ASSUMED INTERPERSONAL SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY.

Steve
sb6@altavista.com

quote:

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While I know of situations like you describe, that was not the case in this particular situation. Suffice to say that he wanted nothing to do with her, even when asked.

---

Thank you for sharing that bit of information. I hope know you have nothing to prove here.

Those who are looking for excuses for Michaell's behavior will find them regardless of what anyone says. That is the way of rationalization and denial.

I'm sorry that anyone put out the challenge or demand for information, but they did.

Personally, I am of the belief that no force on earth can prevent a parent from loving and wanting to be with their child, not when the desire is there. Something really really creepy has to be going on when the desire isn't there, it completely goes against human nature.

I have known some in my life who found it possible to walk away from their children, but most of them have enough conscience that they admit to suffering from the choice.

I guess I do know a few who have done what Michaell did, with seemingly not a care in the world about it. In those cases there was always a new spouse or lover making the demands of "loyalty" though.

I guess we might surmise that somewhere inside he didn't feel all that great about his choice, given the way he decided to exit the planet. Suicide doesn't speak loudly of a happy enlightened being, no matter how hard Jach tries to make it seem that way in this case.

You have my continued condolences for whatever your involvement is with this sad drama.

Maybe someone "in the know" will develop enough of a conscience to contact Michaell's daughter and honestly answer some of the many questions she must have. Surely someone in Orlando was privy to the party line on all of this, but can now see how unexcusable it is for a father to abandon his (only?) child.

Would that be too much to hope for? Maybe we can find some hope of peace for the living instead of continuing this charade that Peny and Michaell's deaths were some kind of mystical magical love boat adventures.

Anyone out there have a heart?

Katie

It was good to see you post again. I think there are still so many questions remaining from Peny's sudden death and Michael's suicide. Do you know if Peny was sick for a long time? I have heard rumors of heart problems. And wouldn't Michaell's child now be well into his/her twenties? And is there more than one child? And what was the upshot of the police investigation? As you probably know, Jach has written saying he nor CS does not condone suicide. Yet, I and many other people feel like there are more questions now than before.

Any insight would be appreciated.

You ask questions that are on all of our minds.

I hope you realize that those who are personally involved might not be free or disposed to discuss the personal and private information that they may have received by right of their relationship to the families of Peny and Michaell, or of the private details of their own lives.

Jach has demanded complete privacy and refuses to answer these questions from people who have been long time supporters and followers of his.

I would like us all to think very carefully about how much of a demand we would like to put on people who seem to have had no contact with Con:Sin to answer our questions, or explain themselves to us here in a public place.

I believe that the facts of this situation will be made available sooner or later, and it would be my definite preference that those answers come from sources other than those who are no doubt in a far greater state of incredulity and grief than those of us who have involvement with Con:Sin.

I'm sure that justfacts will share or not from a sense of knowing what is right for them. I would like us to be careful not to make justfacts feel any pressure to respond to our questions.

I truly do understand the questions, but I hope we will all be careful and thoughful of others in how we seek to find the answers.

Also, I have tried in my own subtle way to get us all thinking about the reality of what is going on in Orlando.

We can speculate that there is police involvement, legal maneuvering, etc. and as we all know, while estates and legal issues are being resolved, those involved are well advised to remain silent.

Peny and Michaell's death certificates will be a matter of public record. They may well already be available through the Orlando Department of Records.

The wills will be made public also, once they are probated.

There is a lot of information that can be privately gathered for those who feel moved to do so.

I hope that little by little those who have information will share it here, but with due respect for those who are still living, and have no reason to feel that they owe us anything.

Really, the information should come from Con:Sin itself. Maybe one day soon one of those sychophants might wake up with a conscience, and take some personally responsibility for the feelings and confusion of the many many followers who are feeling left out to dry.

Hope springs eternal.

Katie

For some reason there has always been a shrowd of secrecy around CS which seems to have tightened its circle more in the past years.

Of course I wish no danger for Justfacts. Nor do I consider my post to be asking her/him to do anything that they would not normally do. In one sense, however it is natural people are going to ask the same questions I am asking since Justfacts opened a door that had not been open before.

I struggle with it all myself. Is it my business? If Peny was sick why not share it? Why hasn'[t Lazaris said anything about this? Was CS prepared for this death and we weren't? Ah, the questions are endless.....

But no, my post was not meant to pressure or to ask someone to do something they would not feel safe or predisposed in so doing.

Still stymied
Bluebird

quote:

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For some reason there has always been a shrowd of secrecy around CS which seems to have tightened its circle more in the past years.

---

Yeah, it's true, I've heard it said that the health of a relationship can be gauged by the number of secrets kept. I suppose Con:Sin secrecy really speaks to the health of the relationship between "them" and the rest of the world. Privacy and secrecy are not the same thing.

[quoteOf course I wish no danger for Justfacts. Nor do I consider my post to be asking her/him to do anything that they would not normally do. In one sense, however it is natural people are going to ask the same questions I am asking since Justfacts opened a door that had not been open before.[/quote]

Oh, I understand completely. We are all hungry for information, me just as much as anyone!

Others have asked for personal information, or stated a need to have it, I want us all to be conscious of justfacts right to privacy as well. I think we have to consider that this person may be grieving, and I'm sure none of us would phone up someone who is still processing the death of a loved one to press them for information.

I'm not accusing anyone of doing that, just pointing out that we should take care not to let our own desire for information cause us to put undo pressure on anyone else.

quote:

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I struggle with it all myself. Is it my business? If Peny was sick why not share it? Why hasn'[t Lazaris said anything about this? Was CS prepared for this death and we weren't? Ah, the questions are endless.....

---

Yes, they are endless, and the less information we get the more questions arise.
You ask very good questions, and I wish I had the answers. At this point all we can do is speculate.

I think it's healthy to have questions about Peny's death, she was held up as an icon to all of us. She was not a private person, she imposed her wisdom and wonder on all who crossed her path. But, even if she were not, if she were the lady who sold us the newspaper every day, people would still ask what happened. In most healthy normal situations, answers would be provided without a second thought. Most people understand the desire for information, especially about death. Did you ever attend a funeral where no one was allowed to ask why the person died, or where most didn't already know? This would be most odd, especially in a case of a sudden death. Although it is pretty clear that Peny was sick for quite some time, that information was never provided either, so the questions about her death are inevitable.

quote:

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But no, my post was not meant to pressure or to ask someone to do something they would not feel safe or predisposed in so doing.

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I'm sure it wasn't, but glad that you clarified it anyway, for justfacts sake.

quote:

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Still stymied

---

Aren't we all? You mentioned a rumor mill.
Do you mind sharing what you might know about what the source/s of information might be coming from that?

Thanks,

Katie

As for rumor mill, I'm pretty far out of loop since I don't live in Marin/SF where most of the long time friends of CS live.

I did hear that Peny appeared to be in bad health at the Millenium. Someone mentioned heart trouble and someone else mentioned diabetes. Of course you saw her....notice anything?

But the more I think about your post, the weirder it is. Peny was a very private person. I bet she didn't leave the compound for the last several years. She never posted about anything from outside world that I recall. But yet, if you are touted as "Peny the more", people are going to wonder when you suddenly check out. Especially in light of all these discussions about longevity.

You know, not to digress here but it reminds me of George Bush. If he had just come right out and said, "ok, I did some grass" people would have gone "ho hum" and moved on. But by not answering it started up a feeding frenzy where people would do almost anything to find out. And why is cause of death something to be ashamed of?

Oh well, thanks for letting me muse here. I am curious. And probably no more curious than anyone else and no more curious than they were are about their customers.

Best to you,
Bluebird

quote:

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And probably no more curious than anyone else and no more curious than they were are about their customers.

---

Now, there's the point! Privacy is fine and dandy for them, but what privacy was being respected when they were discussion people's private readings, email, and conversations over dinner, or when Peny and "Steve" were feeding each other tasty little tidbits about people's private lives, making up nasty names for Forum members, and plotting their next "cyber kill"?

Yeah, good point bluebird!

Katie

quote:

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Yeah, it's true, I've heard it said that the health of a relationship can be gauged by the number of secrets kept.

---

This reminds me of L discoursing on codependency -- saying that one of the signs of codependency is that certain topics are enforced as off limits for the other person in the relationship.

Not only is there secrecy around the two deaths, people have essentially been told that they know all they need to know, and not talk about it.

Yes, in psychological circles, it's called "taboo topics". They are one of the criteria for defining co-dependency.

A few other signs of being a co-dependent:

I am perfectionistic and place too many expectations on myself and others.

I tend to minimize, alter or even deny the truth about how I feel.

Other people's actions and attitudes tend to determine how I respond/react.

I tend to put other people's wants and needs first.

My fear of other's feelings (anger) determines what I say and do.

I question or ignore my own values to connect with significant others. I value other's opinions more than my own.

My self-esteem is bolstered by outer/other influences.

My serenity and mental attention is determined by how other's are feeling and/or behaving.

I tend to judge everything I do, think, or say harshly; by someone else's standards -- nothing is done, said, or thought "Good Enough".

I do not know that it is OKAY to talk about problems outside the family; or that feelings just are -- and it is better to share them than to deny, minimize or justify them.

I tend to put other people's wants and needs before my own.

I am steadfastly loyal -- even when the loyalty is unjustified -- and personally harmful.

Food for thought?

Katie

Bluebird, I think regarding W. Bush it wasn't "grass" people were questioning, I'm pretty sure it was COCAINE.!maybe just a typo on your part..

Still that does parallel the Peny issue, some people were told "don't ask any questions",so they didn't, then some ask indirect questions, some ask the wrong questions altogether...due in part to disinformation..mostly based on FEAR as Jeremiah posted in another thread.

Given that W's dear old Dad was running a guns for Cocaine Trade while "running" the country it isn't hard to see why some didn't know the extent of this issue, and the questions, and there is always fear on the part of the media.

You said: "Bluebird, I think regarding W. Bush it wasn't "grass" people were questioning, I'm pretty sure it was COCAINE.!maybe just a typo on your part.."

Yes you are right that it was cocaine but also grass. Bush refused to talk about ANY of his past, including the drinking. And as we saw they more you try to keep secrets the more people want to know what the secrets are. In a way the bombshell about his being arrested for drunk driving...that came out a week before the election nearly cost him that.

Moral of the story is that if you are a leader in a movement, politics, religion, or any other organization.....it all comes out anyway. Not if, but when.

Best,
Bluebird

Your essay on Micheall North's death was very well considered. I can really only suppose about Micheall's death, but I wanted to propose one idea:

What if there was a covennant? I do believe Peny just left, because I believe that's possible. But I think Peny had been at work in this arena a lot longer than Michaell ever had. Combine that with her unique relationship with Lazaris and I think it becomes easy to see how it was possible for her her to step away from her physical existence.

But what if Michaell wasn't as skilled as Peny? What if she knew how to do it, but he didn't? What if, after her departure, he was so desparate to follow her by any means, he resorted to gross human behaviour?

We all know what it's like to lose someone we love. And I think we all know that the human mind is capable of folding in on itself at such times of extreme grief - no matter how transformed about life and death we think we might be. I can imagine that Michaell's grief over losing Peny from the physical form was excruciating. And maybe he just couldn't bear to live without her - covennant or not.

We don't need to make his death mean anything about Lazaris or the validity of the information that Lazaris provides. It's a personal choice for everyone who comes into contact with the information - does it ring true? If yes, then integrate it. If no, then move on and find another truth.

God bless Michaell, where ever he is and whomever he is with.

I guess the question here is whether or not we are to take Lazaris at "his" word, or whether we should just tweak what he says to allow for whatever other theories work for us.

If we are to take him at his word, there is no point in discussing any of these theories is there?

If we are not to take him at his word, then what's the point of listening to anything "he" has to say?

Lazaris was very clear about Michaell North's alleged spiritual acumen. He was stated to be among the most stellar, one who was referred by Lazaris to be Peny's mate.

He was also very clear that Peny "just left" but the coroner's report refutes that.

Unless of course you can turn a long term illness, rotting skin, a congested heart, failing organs, festering infections, atrophied glands, being wheelchair bound, and dying of that one too many dose of ill gotten pain medication and Blue Sky Vodka to be "just left", well, what can I say? I guess you'll be around here with us for a long time if that's what "just leaving" means. LOL..something tells me that even you, only a puzzled follower will be able to achieve a far faster exit from our company.

I don't mean to be indelicate here, but how far really are you willing to stretch the meaning of the word "truth"?

I do appreciate your evident willingness to discuss this at least, that's far more than what most of the true believers will do.

It seems it's more expedient to ignore, ridicule, dismiss, insult, degrade, and demean old friends than it is to have this discussion.

Thanks for posting.

Welcome to the site!

You wrote:

quote:

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I do believe Peny just left, because I believe that's possible.

---

If being possible is a reason to believe that something is true, then you must also believe that Peny died against her will, since that's also possible. It's possible that Jach is faking the whole Lazaris phenomenom. Does that prove that he is? No. It's also possible that hes not faking. The possibilities cancel each other out, so we need more evidence than simply what is possible.

You wrote:

quote:

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Peny had been at work in this arena a lot longer than Michaell ever had.

---

Time is an illusion, yes? What difference does it make who spent more time at it? "Lazaris" even says that some people who have been on a metaphysical track for short time can be more advanced than some who have been at it for years.

You wrote:

quote:

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But what if Michaell wasn't as skilled as Peny? What if she knew how to do it, but he didn't?

---

So how skilled was he? He evidently considered himself to more skilled than most people, since he offered metaphysical advice (at a price).

You wrote:

quote:

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What if, after her departure, he was so desparate to follow her by any means, he resorted to gross human behaviour?

---

So what did he learn from all his years with Lazaris? One of the most basic principles of the material is that we can transcend our physicality without giving it up.

You wrote:

quote:

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We don't need to make his death mean anything about Lazaris or the validity of the information that Lazaris provides.

---

No, we don't need to. Some of us choose to. Given that most of us have not had the phenomenal success that Lazaris claims his material offers, many have turned to the apparent success of those closest to the source. If even those people have not manifested success, then what evidence is there that the material is valuable?

You wrote:

quote:

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God bless Michaell, where ever he is and whomever he is with.

---

I'm sure God will or will not bless Michaell regardless of our petitions.

Welcome!

You said: We don't need to make his death mean anything about Lazaris or the validity of the information that Lazaris provides.

I would be more inclined to buy this argument if it weren't for the fact that Lazaris had spent so much time extolling the virtues and spiritual character of Peny, Michaell, and to a much lesser extent, Jach. He has also made the occasional warm and fuzzy comments about other C/S staff members. I view his comments as inaccurate at best and outright lying at worst. Even if Lazaris had provided an honest, accurate description of these folks, I must ask myself whether I want to create similar 'maps' as to those these people created. These are after all the people closest to Lazaris, with the most access to Lazaris, and the most experience with Lazaris. If this is the best they could do, I'll pass.

You said: It's a personal choice for everyone who comes into contact with the information - does it ring true? If yes, then integrate it.

Here is where I think spiritual integrity is of paramount importance.

For a long time, the material did ring true to me. For whatever reason, Lazaris won my trust years ago. This trust "allowed" me to ignore inconsistency after inconsistency. I rationalized that any incongruity in the material was due to my own lack of seeing the higher vision. After all, I believed Lazaris was who he said he was; I believed his statements about his ability to make acute observations about our reality; I believed him when he said he never lied.

Most of the material Lazaris talks about is unverifiable. It is also material that we desperately WANT to believe in. Add to this the love most of us have felt towards Lazaris. These are the ingredients that can make about anything he says ring true.

However, once the trust is broken, everything falls apart. For me, the trust was broken by his lies on the "Healing the Broken Alliances" tape. The more distance I have from the material, the more I realize just how much of what rang true at one time no longer does. I realize that the perceived accuracy of so much he says is predicated on the accuracy of other statements he has made. Well, if I can't trust any particular statement he makes, then I can no longer use his own reasoning to use as the "proof" of other statements.

You said: If no, then move on and find another truth.

While I have moved on to find other truths, I will not move on to the extent of ignoring what I perceive as spiritual abuse being committed. I may choose to use some of my energy to stop this abuse. To use an analogy, should someone who has knowledge of a priest having committed sexual abuse turn a blind eye on this because that same priest may have a positive impact on some people? I realize you weren't saying this explicitly and that I am guilty of extending your statement.

Cheers, Craig

I don't have much time to post anything these days but I do check in here and wanted to add a few thoughts to your post.

My DSL service is acting up so I hope I get this in while it is working..

you wrote:

quote:

---

Your essay on Micheall North's death was very well considered. I can really only suppose about Micheall's death, but I wanted to propose one idea:

What if there was a covennant? I do believe Peny just left, because I believe that's possible. But I think Peny had been at work in this arena a lot longer than Michaell ever had. Combine that with her unique relationship with Lazaris and I think it becomes easy to see how it was possible for her her to step away from her physical existence."

---

Everyoone concedes Michaell North's death was a suicide.

He ended his own life, CS does not deny that they merely place it in the context of a "Sacred Covenant".

If you can make sense of such a covenant in light of what Lazaris has been teaching for the past decades then I would be all ears.

As I pointed out in my original post last year it seems to me inconsistent and revealing of a lack of metaphysical insight and understanding.

Certainly a death pact is no not in anyway a culmination of a spiritual life. Not the type of metaphysics Lazaris taught. Indeed Lazaris refers to suicide as an act of hostility excepting the very elderly or those in intense physical pain with no way out.

They may have had such a covenant but it doesn't hold consistent with any expanded veiw of consciousness or of basic metaphysical understanding.

A covenant is a considered pact not an impulsive response to grief.

So if what they claim is true, they plotted this with some sobriety while in relatively good health.

What beliefs would you have to hold in order to make such a covenant?

My question is does this make any sense at all with respect to the issues I raised in my initial post regarding what Lazaris taught?

you wrote:

quote:

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"But what if Michaell wasn't as skilled as Peny? What if she knew how to do it, but he didn't? What if, after her departure, he was so desparate to follow her by any means, he resorted to gross human behaviour? "

---

Do you dispute the findings in the forensic reports?

I think many people just choose to leave their bodies for whatever reason, but do the forensic findings indicate that Peny was one of those people?

you wrote:

quote:

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"We all know what it's like to lose someone we love. And I think we all know that the human mind is capable of folding in on itself at such times of extreme grief - no matter how transformed about life and death we think we might be. I can imagine that Michaell's grief over losing Peny from the physical form was excruciating. And maybe he just couldn't bear to live without her - covennant or not."

---

No question it is possible that in despair he took his own life.

That is pretty much his business.

Concept Synergy made it our business by presenting a version of his suicide that aggrandized he and Peny.

What is our business is determining whether or not we have been lied to and what the ramifications of such a lie might be.

Are you comfortable with the discrepancies between the forensic findings and what Lazaris presented as Peny's impulsive choice to leave her body?

quote:

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"We don't need to make his death mean anything about Lazaris or the validity of the information that Lazaris provides. It's a personal choice for everyone who comes into contact with the information - does it ring true? If yes, then integrate it. If no, then move on and find another truth."

---

Sure, no argument there.

For me, analysis is in order. Analysis of the Lazaris teachings against the backdrop of the claims Concept Synertgy makes and against the version that Lazaris has offered of Michaell's suicide and Peny's death, is, for me, exactly that, discovering and integrating truth.

quote:

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"God bless Michaell, where ever he is and whomever he is with. "

---

Yes, of course and God bless us in our desire to know whether or not we have been lied to.

If it fits for you, Concept Synergy's version, Lazaris version and the forensic findings then so be it.. but if you could share how you reconcile those discrepancies I would be interested in hearing your veiws.

This is an issue of self respect for me, none of us are on this planet to do as we are told, and as I said in a post somewhere else on this board it is my opinion that you cannot be a follower and create your own reality.

It is my opinion that involvement with Concept Synergy at this point involves checking too much precious cargo at the door.

What do you think? what are your experiences?

Jeremiah

quote:

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Yes, of course and God bless us in our desire to know whether or not we have been lied to.

---

It seems that to the cultifed the quest for truth "outside the box" is not a sacred one. So far it seems that every cult has it's own version of "negative-ego" as an explanation and deterrent for asking the hard questions or pursuing a line of thought not in accordance with the party line.

I'm quite sure that we are most heartily blessed for our efforts to uncover the Truth.

Katie

quote:

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For a long time, the material did ring true to me. For whatever reason, Lazaris won my trust years ago. This trust "allowed" me to ignore inconsistency after inconsistency. I rationalized that any incongruity in the material was due to my own lack of seeing the higher vision. After all, I believed Lazaris was who he said he was; I believed his statements about his ability to make acute observations about our reality; I believed him when he said he never lied.

---

Yes, of course, we were first and foremost conditioned and encouraged to TRUST. After that all bets are off. We're sheep to the slaughter.

Fortunately some sheep are smart enough to note the frantic bleating around us and to note the smell of Sunday roast.

Some sheep evidently are not so observant, or maybe the dirty feed troughs along the way to the slaughterhouse provide sufficient distraction.

Personally I like it over here in the open field where the grass is sweet and freely available.

Katie

you wrote:

quote:

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Yes, of course, we were first and foremost conditioned and encouraged to TRUST. After that all bets are off. We're sheep to the slaughter.

Fortunately some sheep are smart enough to note the frantic bleating around us and to note the smell of Sunday roast.

Some sheep evidently are not so observant, or maybe the dirty feed troughs along the way to the slaughterhouse provide sufficient distraction.

Personally I like it over here in the open field where the grass is sweet and freely available.

---

I was the unobservant sheep eating at the dirty feed trough. Only I didn't see the dirty trough. I saw the open fields where the grass is sweet and freely available in my meditations. I lived the dream episodically, believing the promise that if I kept doing the work I would have the reality.

I stayed at that dirty trough for almost 14 years, chewing and pretending that any moment I would have that wonderful sweet grass...

Hmmm, what is that wonderful smell and what is that incessant bleating for god's sake?!!

Kinda hard to keep focused with all the bleating distracting me.

Oh good! Another manifesting technique...

I know I will (chomp, chew, swallow) do it this time...ad infinitum

Best wishes to ewe Fools!

Micki

you wrote:

quote:

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But what if Michaell wasn't as skilled as Peny? What if she knew how to do it, but he didn't? What if, after her departure, he was so desparate to follow her by any means, he resorted to gross human behaviour

---

Maybe part of his desperation came from him obtaining illegal drugs (codeine) from Canada and he was going to face charges.

Best Wishes,

Micki