I am sure I will not be popular on this site but I must speak up. I have read all of the post's here finding this site by accident from e-bay. To say I am shocked by what is said about Peny North is a HUGE understatement.

I have NEVER met the Peny you all speak of. Quite frankly I myself have never even seen a picture of Peny North or met her personally. I have only exchanged e-mails with her. The Peny I know is the most generous person I have ever met. She has helped me out not only emotionally when I was having some difficult times, but she has helped me out financially and has given all with never asking for a thing in return. There was no ulterior motive, no trickery, no con game. She did all of this for nothing in return.

I have never joined the forum nor have I ever been to a Lazaris intensive. Frankly I couldn't afford going to the intensives. So therefore I cannot comment on those things.

The Peny you all speak of is different than the Peny I know. The Peny I know is beautiful through and through. I can't imagine her ever hurting ANYONE on purpose.

Thanks for listening and allowing me to post my feelings.

Thanks for writing. It is helpful to hear your perspective.

People are complex and I am glad you wrote to share your experience with Peny as it does provide balance.

Thanks, hope you post often.

NewDawn said:I am sure I will not be popular on this site but I must speak up.

As far as I am concerned anyone speaking with integrity are totally cool people. Your post sounds like it has a lot of integrity. As you know if you have read my posts, I have never met Peny, I was in a totally different cult for 5 years. So, I really cant judge her personally in any way.

NewDawn said: I have read all of the post's here finding this site by accident from e-bay. To say I am shocked by what is said about Peny North is a HUGE understatement.

You say you are shocked, ok, that makes sense. Do you mind if I ask you, do you think the folks on these boards are lying? Or how come do you think they are saying the things they are saying?

NewDawn said: I have NEVER met the Peny you all speak of. Quite frankly I myself have never even seen a picture of Peny North or met her personally. I have only exchanged e-mails with her. The Peny I know is the most generous person I have ever met. She has helped me out not only emotionally when I was having some difficult times, but she has helped me out financially and has given all with never asking for a thing in return. There was no ulterior motive, no trickery, no con game. She did all of this for nothing in return.

It sounds like you have quite a friend there , friends are some of the most valuable things in life, imnsho. It also sounds like she has quite a friend in you. Thats wonderful... I most admit I often miss the friends I had when I was in the cult. I miss them a lot. The friendships were very hard to let go off.

I guess my integrity just couldnt handle witnessing the abuse, being abused, and at times participating in the abuse. But it sounds like it isnt like that for you....

NewDawn said:I have never joined the forum nor have I ever been to a Lazaris intensive. Frankly I couldn't afford going to the intensives. So therefore I cannot comment on those things.

Ok, so it is actually possible that the forum might be experienced as abusive by some people? Or why do you think the stories of abuse are so many on these boards?

NewDawn said: The Peny you all speak of is different than the Peny I know. The Peny I know is beautiful through and through.

Is it possible you dont know her as well as you feel you know her?

NewDawn said: I can't imagine her ever hurting ANYONE on purpose.

Yet, the stories here abound dont they?

NewDawn said: Thanks for listening and allowing me to post my feelings.

Hey, I am always up for some friendly disagreement . It is refreshing to hear another attitude to Peny. I am glad you have gotten so much from your friendship with her, and probably also from knowing Lazaris.

Now, let me explain to you why I participate on these boards, and why, without having met Peny, or even been a witness to any of the things going on in the forum I tend to agree with Katie and Ted that it is indeed a cult like group.

After leaving the cult I was a full time member of for 5 years it took me literally years to recover. One major step in my recovery was to truely understand what cults are, and how they work. I spend literally hours and hours reading, researching, and finally coming to an understanding of cults and even more importantly of mind control. I finally started some very real healing from understanding how it could have all gone so horribly wrong. How things I passionately believed in could be used against me, and people whom I deeply loved could have turned so horribly against me.

It is with that understanding I post on these boards. Katie's and Ted's stories fits the bill off how destructive cults operate very well. I know from my own experiences how it works, and from my research what to look out for.

I dont think Katie and Ted have just done the research, and then after the fact made up the story about Concept:Synergy being a cult. There are just too many correct details for them to be able to do that.

When I hear the stories on these boards, I become even more convinced that the abuse being told about is in fact true.

If the abuse is true, then my integrity would demand that I support people breaking free of it.

So, my point of posting here is to stand up and share my journey of leaving a destructive cult, in the hopes that the journey can help someone else step a little closer to freedom.

In your case, you obviously dont feel abused, nor have you experienced the painful ways of the Forum. Which means you are probably doing great without looking at Concept:Synergy as a cult, and Peny as a cult leader.

I dont want to interfere with your friendship or your life.

However, to be honest. You have read the stories here. You can of course dismiss those stories and just go on your merry way. But, if I was in your shoes I would research a little more why those stories all of a sudden explode on these boards.

Personally, I would want to know WHY so many people talk about abuse in the Forum. I would need that understanding... Maybe you dont need that, and I will just wish you God Speed then .

Malene said: You say you are shocked, ok, that makes sense. Do you mind if I ask you, do you think the folks on these boards are lying? Or how come do you think they are saying the things they are saying?

I would never accuse anyone of lying or try to minimize any hurt or anger that they are feeling. My heart is saddened by all of this. I only wanted to lend a point of view about my experiences with Peny.

Malene said: Hey, I am always up for some friendly disagreement . It is refreshing to hear another attitude to Peny. I am glad you have gotten so much from your friendship with her, and probably also from knowing Lazaris.
Now, let me explain to you why I participate on these boards, and why, without having met Peny, or even been a witness to any of the things going on in the forum I tend to agree with Katie and Ted that it is indeed a cult like group.

I must say while I enjoy some of the Lazaris material,I don't hang on to each and every word and make it the central part of my spiritual growth. I have hundreds of books and tapes by many, many authors and I use a variety of techniques and teachers to enhance my spiritual growth. There are things in virtually every book or tape, from many authors that my "inner voice" tells me are not right for me. I am someone who ALWAYS listens to that little voice.

I am not here to say or even imply in the slightest that the things those are saying on the forum did not happen. I wouldn't know as I stated I was not a member of the forum. I am only here to say that Peny has always been a beautiful friend to me.

Quite frankly I cannot say much about Jach either except the very few e-mails and phone calls I have had with him have been pleasurable experiences. They were more on a personal level and had nothing to do with Lazaris.

I must also say that being a friend to me about a year ago had to have been exhausting for Peny. My life was spinning way out of control and Peny was always warm and loving to me. It seemed everyday I was writing to her about another saga and everyday she took the time to be a shoulder to lean on. She never complained, she was never rude or even harsh. She was just a good friend and wonderful confidant.

Once again, I mean NO disrespect to anyone, anywhere. I was only lending my own point of view and my own personal experiences.

Do you mind my asking how it came about that you and Peny North were exchanging e-mails, without ever meeting each other and are you currently still in contact with her and Jach? Welcome to the discussion.

NewDawn said: I would never accuse anyone of lying or try to minimize any hurt or anger that they are feeling. My heart is saddened by all of this. I only wanted to lend a point of view about my experiences with Peny.

I much respect your point of view. I guess my point is a very different perspective. I am not really interested in Peny on a personal level. I am interested in wether or not Concept:Synergy as currently lead by Peny and Jach is a destructive cult.

So, first I need to define what I mean by destructive cult I think to best be able to facilitate this chat.

A destructive cult is a group with a clearly defined leadership, which uses specific techniques to gain and keep people closely attached to the group. In these clearly defined techniques are included mind control, which is designed to make people feel they are coming back for something they absolutely need, and coming back of their own free will, all the while manipulating and circumventing that free will.

Again, Steven Hassan has the best and clearest description on his web site about what mind control, and destructive cults are. You might want to check it out http://www.freedomofmind.com. One page I especially recommend is: http://www.freedomofmind.com/resource/srmind.htm.

Contrary to popular belief destructive cults are not all religious, they can also be political, commercial, ecological or any other form as long as they use the mind control techniques and deception to keep people coming back for more.

Also contrary to popular belief, it is not necessary for the followers of a destructive cult to live with the destructive cult, or to cut off outside contact to family, friends or even other ideas for it to truely be a destructive cult.

Now, accusing Peny and Jach of leading a destructive cult, based on the above description is much, much more serious than just calling them assholes.

In my mind it is a very serious allegation we are bringing against those two, and one that should be taken very seriously.

While I have not been involved with Concept:Synergy, the Forum, or Jach and Peny myself, I have had a chance to see some of what is happening in the Forum myself.

I have as I stated before spend a few years, and many, many hours working on finding out what destructive cults are, and how they work, and I am absolutely convinced Concept:Synergy fits the bill as the behaviors currently goes in the Forum.

If I am correct in this assesment, that means that Concept:synergy as currently lead by Jach and Peny has serious long term emotional health and mental health effects in some people's lives.

If that is true, I would believe that even a good friend would have to stand up and try to stop the abuse. For that is the bottom line here. Destructive cults abuse humans.

NewDawn said: Once again, I mean NO disrespect to anyone, anywhere. I was only lending my own point of view and my own personal experiences.

Hey, thats great. As stated before, disagreement is healthy as long as it is done in a healthy way . You standing up to speak your truth just shows you are a strong person with a lot of integrity.

Hi New Dawn,

First of all welcome, or is it welcome back?

You fail to address the fact that you have not been honest about how you happened upon this site. You already know that I know that you didn't just happen to find us on ebay, not recently anyway as your statement implies. You have been reading here for a long time and someone using the same computer has posted here as Raphael, and now Timothy.

So what is the deal Dawn? Are you and Timothy one and the same, or is the story Timothy tells true, that he has written to me under your name, using your email address, and without your knowledge until today, or is the Timothy story a way for you to cover yourself both with us and with Peny?

I'm sorry Dawn, but there is just too much inconsistancy and weirdness about this whole situation, and for the sake of all of us, I feel that I must ask these questions.

I am not a psychic, none of us here are. We are for the most part sincere and honest people who are trying to figure something out that is important to us. We are recovering from abuse. Are you here to support that cause or to thwart it?

None of us have received charity from Peny, and the Peny I know would not provide any.
The story that was told to me originally by you or Timothy did not mention any charity, but on the contrary told a story of betrayal.

Further emails from your computer told of emails received by Peny telling you not to give us any energy, that Ted and I were miserable people, vicious and unhappy because of our terrible marriage, and that you had finished completely with Peny.

So, New Dawn and Timothy, Raphael, whoever, please clear all this up.

I just don't want to play any games here, and something is smelling really off. All of these posts and emails came from the same computer. What is going on?

Thanks,

Katie

Timothy: I would have appreciated you just tell me personally instead of posting your name on the internet and leaving me no anonymity. I know how you feel about what you think Peny did or did not do and all that I will say is that I do not agree with you. I feel betrayed by both you and Linda.

I feel now since you were associated with my post I will make it clear I DO NOT agree with your perception of what has unfolded. I will not air anymore of this now dirty laundry publicly.

Katie:I did in fact find this site from e-bay. Since you and Timothy seem to share personal facts about my life through e-mails maybe he can verify this for you.
While Timothy felt the need to tell you how HE see's things I felt inclined to do the same. I honestly didn't even know he posted here although I knew he was reading the sight pointing out to me every single negative thing that was said about Peny. Why Timothy felt he had to share a PERSONAL e-mail I shared with Peny is now something that causes a MAJOR conflict for me and a betrayal of my trust. I only wanted people to hear of the Peny I knew and how I felt about her.

You said:non of ushave received charity from Peny, and the Peny I know would not provide any.
The story that was told to me originally by you or Timothy did not mention any charity, but on the contrary told a story of betrayal.

First of all I have never considered myself a charity case. Timothy sees Peny's giving sense with ulterior motives NOT ME. Timothy see's things that have unfolded as betrayal, I do not. I have a much different perspective.

While many of you may not believe this it DOES hurt me that you all have been hurt. Just because I have warm feelings for Peny doesn't mean I have NO compassion for others.

You will not be bothered by me again. Sorry for the apparent wild fire this has caused exposing my positive feelings for Peny.

Thank you for another insightful post.

This is the issue, isn't it? Is Con:Sin a cult, does it meet the criteria and does it practice cult tactics? Have we been manipulated and mind controlled or subjected to other defined cult tactics?

That is for each of us here to decide, hopefully based on a preponderance of evidence and upon our own powers of discrimination.

Like you, my answer to the question about Con:Sin is a resounding YES.

Whether others agree is of their own discretion to decide, but it is wonderful to have the benefit of your insights and reminders. Your work in the cult awareness field is a great benefit to us all. As you illustrate, there are clear definitions of cult tactics, and we can each choose whether or not they apply to our experiences with Jach, Peny, or Con:Sin.

I would be really excited to see more discussion about cult dynamic and tactics here.

Right now though, it seems that in this thread we are sorting through a lot of hurt feelings and personal perceptions. I do hope that we come out the other side of that and deal with the specifics of the allegation. I'm sure that will be of benefit to all of us. In any event, it certainly can't hurt.

Katie

"Sorry for the apparent wild fire this has
caused exposing my positive feelings for Peny."

That is not at all what has happened. I don't see any wildfire anywhere. What are you referring to?

As a way of showing your expressed concern for all of us, would you help to clear up the confusion about the use of your private email and internet account by Timothy?

That is the issue, not your feelings for Peny. Your thoughts on Peny are welcomed here and no one has stated otherwise.

Thanks,

I have personal memories of Peny's generosity. She gave me a Lazaris weekend once when I was in finnacial bad shape and could not afford to go.

She once bumped me to the head of Lazaris' private consultation wait list when I had a job offer from a very wealthy -- potentially shifty individual who would have burned my ass had I accepted his offer. No doubt about that from known hindsight.

Thank you Lazaris. You really helped save my hide with what proved to be excellent intuition about Phil Filthy Scumbag. Jesus Christ -- thanks egg unit! ;0)

And then, IMO Peny abuses-the-hell out of those she draws close with her generosity.

And I, we.. pull away -- one hopes: at least eventually.

No exuses, folks. Peny is capable of beautiful generosity -- and IMO great cruelty when her learned inability to control her reactions to (interactive) life's disapointments -- large and small: f*ck everything up for her.

Hey. I'm an Enneagram 8 with a 9 wing -- if not for my desire for closeness and peace in this life -- I would still be feared by every poor "miracle incapable" with the idiotic misfortune to let me down.

We all have our Enneagram personality hurtles -- built RIGHT in... to our inescapable, incarnate insides.

IMO, Peny as a 6 is an expert "giving" social skid-greeser. Perhaps that's why she has gotten to her mid fifties with the objects of her fantastic generosity STILL excusing -- enough -- of what they let her get away with -- for her to IMO have not YET have grown up emotionally.

IMO disapointment is her missle launch button for, "I get to F*CK you now -- HOWEVER I want: because YOU OWE ME!"

It's sad and pathetic. What is she now: 55 years old? The woman is IMO still in socio-emotional preschool, folks.

That is clear enough.

For a chronological adult, emotional preschool sucks Love and Life force constantly away.

Steve

Katie said: As a way of showing your expressed concern for all of us, would you help to clear up the confusion about the use of your private emails and internet account by Timothy?

This is not my internet account it is Timothy's. He is using an e-mail address that I no longer use. We have 4 people using this internet account. Timothy, Timothy's mother, my 17 year old son and myself. Not too mention 4 other children, 1 being way too small to type. LOL We all reside together why would we want to use different servers? We have a cable access server if that makes any sense.

Katie said: That is the issue, not your feelings for Peny. Your thoughts on Peny are welcomed here and no one has stated otherwise.

The only "issue" I was attempting to get to was that there is a beautiful view of Peny that I have seen and experienced. Timothy believes that this was all done for ulterior motives. To be quite frank, Timothy has dissected the whole relationship Peny and I have had and has came to the apparent conclusion about her as you all have. Timothy loves me very deeply and doesn't want to see me hurt.

In your post to Malene you said: This is the issue, isn't it? Is Con:Sin a cult, does it meet the criteria and does it practice cult tactics? Have we been manipulated and mind controlled or subjected to other defined cult tactics?

In my opinion you have raised MANY issues on this forum. You spoke of many personal experiences with Peny and so have others. If this were really the only issue on this website you wouldn't be attacking the personal appearance of Peny.

Now to be fair to the issue of Lazaris, Concept Synergy and their use of cult tactics. This IS concerning to me. As I stated before I am not deeply involved with the Lazaris material. Although, this is something I want to do some research on since the thoughts were raised. My ex-husband is involved with a church that is very cult like. I fortunately never got involved with them and this I believe is why our marriage failed. This some years ago left me with a sick feeling for all organized religious situations. Maybe this is why I was never fully involved with Lazaris. You are all correct cults ruin families and destroy lives.

After everyone sleeping on what unfolded yesterday, this morning I woke up to a weird family discussion which turned into what seemed to be a family intervention. I guess the only thing I can say is that this has left me feeling very strange and confused. If I am to believe all of you and Timothy, that Peny is a monster,it says a lot about me and the way I choose to view people and the apparent co-dependency with Peny that those closest to me think I have been living with. Timothy said this morning:Peny is like the alcohol feeding the alcoholic.

Right now, I feel sick to my stomach. I am confused, I am sad and babbling. I feel very alone. Where do I go from here? I'm lost!

Welcome to the boards! I personally don't like Peny and I think she's a rotten human being. That's MY reality. I agree with you and I don't see the need to discuss her looks either, I think that's petty. I also wanted to say that as much as I don't like Peny, not everyone is all bad. It seems to me that the best thing for you to do, is to just keep on being her friend--but remember what the people here have experienced. This way you can protect yourself. Also, when it comes to friends, we don't have to like everything about them. I know that there are some things about my friends that irritate me--but they're still my friends. As long as you know who they are--good and bad--you're okay. That's all I'm going to say but I'm sure it's enough. I hope you have a great day.

You wrote

quote:

---

If I am to believe all of you and Timothy, that Peny is a monster,it says a lot about me and the way I choose to view people and the apparent co-dependency with Peny that those closest to me think I have been living with.

---

What this says about you, in my opinion, is that your personal experience with Peny was positive and that that means something to you. What it says is that you are a good friend whether Peny actually is or not. I think sometimes it's a fine line to walk - honoring your experience and balancing that with the experiences of others.

I've seen the gangsters in the Forum blast someone for their positive experience with Katie and Ted, telling them they were being codependent because it didn't jive with what they claimed their own experiences were. I wouldn't want to see that happen here in reverse...and I don't believe that has been anyone's intent here.

It seems to me the main concern was the question Katie had about the shared internet access and email addresses, and I think it was a valid enough concern of her's to come out and ask you. You've explained that here and I appreciate that. Your view about Peny and your choice to share that here is respected.

You say

quote:

---

Timothy loves me very deeply and doesn't want to see me hurt.

---

I think as long as you know that and the two of you can reaffirm your relationship during this emotional "crisis" for you then you can know that you are not so much in codependency with Peny but honoring your experience with her. It's when you start sacrificing those who disagree with you to hold on to what you need to believe about someone else that you teeter into codependency. Peny isn't worth that no matter how kind and generous she may have been to you before.

I wish you support during this time of discernment and reasessment for you. Each of us have been doing just that in our own way, and I am glad you are here.

Respectfully,
Demian,
DreamSinger

aka Seeker

I know this is off topic, but can anyone help me figure out how to use the "reply with quotes" function? It's driving me nuts.

It's cool when it works though.

Thanks,

Welcome to the message board.
I think that "accidentally" finding this site on ebay was a push for you to look at the bigger picture, to help you resolve the incongruity between your feelings about Peny, and how others in your household see her. Anyone would naturally be experiencing a lot of painful conflict in this situation.

Almost everyone who posts here has gone through having to grapple with dissonant feelings about Peny, Jach, "Lazaris" and Con:Syn. I used to have a friend who was kind, loving, and generous until she felt someone had crossed her. Then she attacked with out- of-out-proportion anger, and plenty of character assasination in reaction to a perceived slight. It put quite a damper on those good qualities. The difference between her and Peny is that she doesn't have the power and authority of "Lazaris" and Con:Syn behind her, so she can't do as much damage.

quote:

---

Right now, I feel sick to my stomach. I am confused, I am sad and babbling. I feel very alone. Where do I go from here? I'm lost!

---

I know that feeling from when I got slammed in the forum several years ago. I also had those feelings after I found this site last month (another "accident" so to speak) and clearly needed to take a deeper look at "Lazaris" and C:S. I think we've all been there one way or another.

I get the picture that you have a strong sense of yourself and your spirituality. And you are surrounded by people who love you. I have sense of liberation since I resolved my conflict. Best to you in resolving yours.

Jade

It's sad to hear about this dilemma in your life. Since we aren't therapists here it probably isn't the best thing for us to provide you with any advise. Maybe the thoughts we share with you here might be helpful though. I hope so.

The big lesson I learned from my Con:Sin experience is the importance of thinking for myself, and allowing for others to do the same. To me the process by which one comes to a belief is much more important than the belief itself. How true or strong can a belief be if it was rammed down our throat, or we were controlled or manipulated into believing it.

That is why you won't catch me attempting to sway your beliefs about Peny, although I will speak freely of mine.

That is not to say that it isn't a good idea to take all information into account when assessing a situation or a relationship. I'm constantly amazed for example about the number of reports I get of Friends of Lazaris who refuse to read on this site. It's as though they are afraid to get any information which might upset their apple cart. Even in my True Believer days I would have been all over a site like this which provided more information on the spiritual path I was investing so much in.

The thing is, people are free to accept or reject the perspectives offered here. That seems like a really difficult concept for many to get. Ted and I are recently besieged with email telling us that we are doing something bad, wrong, and evil by hosting this site. God, to me, the worst thing that could happen to someone reading here is that they would leave with more information about C/S than they came in with. So what? Information is freedom. The more information, the greater the freedom of thought.

As to your particular situation, I do hope that no one is trying to manipulate or control your thoughts about Peny. You have to be able to make the determination between a sharing of information and an attempt to enforce beliefs on you. I hope you will take care in doing that, and stand up strongly against anyone who is trying to manipulate your thinking regardless of who they are. Often even well meaning people will do this out of a sense of concern, but the intentions aren't important, the actions are. No one has the right to try to impose thoughts on you.

As far as your feelings for Peny go, it reminds me of a personal situation where I was being provided with information about a particularly bad news person who had recently entered my life in a significant way. People who were close to him and had known him for a long time were providing me with information on his past and in the process encouraged me to speak to a family member of his who had agreed to discuss all this with me.

The family member verified most of the information I had been given, she was open and caring about me in doing so. She expressed sorrow for me that this person had come into my life and agreed that I should be wary and that my concerns were valid.

At the end of the conversation she asked me what I thought she should do, given that inspite of all this, she truly loved this person and wanted only the best for them.

My response to here was to keep loving the person. To me, it is the only hope. Everyone deserves to be loved, and Goddess bless those who continue to love in the face of controversy. We all need someone to stand up for us, at least our basic humanity, and be able to love us warts and all. Unconditional love is a great gift.

On the other hand, I believe that we must take great care in understanding the difference between love, support and enablement. It is not loving to shield someone from the appropriate consequences of their actions, nor is it loving to allow ourselves to become martyrs to love.

I'm sure you will sort this all out Dawn, and I truly hope and doubt that you will get any pressure here to think one way or the other. If you do, I'll be the first to stand up and complain about it.

You will get a lot of information though, and that can only help you in getting clear with your thoughts and feelings.

Thank you so much to all of you for your kind responses. I do appreciate this more than I can tell you.

I have so much more to say but with a house full of children, company flying in and a job I am short of time right now. : )

I'll write more later.

Thanks so much again,
NewDawn

Dawn, I have just gone back and re-read the emails that were sent to me under your name, those which it now said were actually sent by Timothy.

You know, it doesn't matter who sent the mails, the story I was told does not in any way jibe with the story you are now telling. Whether it was you, Timothy, or Peny herself telling these stories is irrelevant, they don't add up.

I'm really in a dilemma here, because something is way way not right about what is going on here and I want that information out here for all to know so that others can decide how much energy they want to invest in this strange drama.

I wrote a post in which I brought up every inconsistancy in your emails, but when I read it it was too blatently confrontational and sickeningly Forum like. I don't wish to subject anyone here to that kind of a dialogue, although I do wish for everyone to have full information.

So, how do I handle this Dawn? How can you address this situation so that everyone here knows the truth of the communications which have gone between us, so that they can make up their own minds as to how to respond to you, and how much belief and trust to invest in you?

Kind, caring, thoughtful people have put time and energy into providing you comfort and support, and from what I just re-read, there is no valid basis for anyone to waste their time responding to more inconsistancies, and yes, flat out lies. Either the lies are posted here, or they are in the emails, but the stories are completely different, not only about your feelings about Peny, but about factual or allegedly factual situations.

Is this your goal Dawn, to vindicate Peny and turn this site into another Forum full of venom and fighting?

I won't let you do that Dawn.

Something is still rotten,and it still stinks, and I don't want to host that kind of garbage here and not be responsible to tell people what is going on.

Please do the right think and come clean about why you have told all these conflicting stories.

Maybe other posters can tell me their thoughts on this. How much do you want to know about what Dawn or Timothy, or whoever they are wrote and told me?

What further information would be helpful?

Any speculations on what this is all about?

Lazaris said once that lies stem from a desire to avoid being hurt. Steve Brooks said once that lies are really useful in the process of effectively delivering explosives -- of any form -- AND NOT GETTING CAUGHT.

My opinion? Drop her if she wants to play dishonest -- *attention entraining* -- sympathy games.

It may be Peny, it may be someone telling half truths and truly bleeding from C:S cult damage.. Malene's B.I.T.E. cult-healing resources ARE there for her. It could even be: "Ricky Martin -- Lazaris Closet Case And Right Wing Male Prostitute!"

Crazies are crazies. Consciouslessly directed ignore-ance can be bliss...

The quote feature? I don't know -- I just click on the *relpy symbol* farthest to the right at the **top** of each post to use it. If you drag your cursor over it without clicking, after a second, a label saying "quote/reply" -- something like that -- appears. No-can-do right now 2 check 'zact label word'n cuz scwibbling here.

:0)
Steve

Whether it was YOU or "TIMOTHY" who wrote the stories in the "LAZARIS DOES EXIST,IMO..." thread under the e-mail address(?) and, I assume, matching name "Raphael," either there is a total lie happening there or you need to get your story straight. Peny dropped you when your house burned down, you lost your business and you had to move cross country with your 5 children, yet you've never seen a nasty side to Peny? Please.

Thank you for sharing your wise and humorous perspective.

It's funny about hostile or dishonest posters and emailers, most of them don't get to me at all. This one shattered my world renowned serenity.

Maybe it's the Machiavellian nature of the whole thing, or the tugging at the heart strings, the pain and confusion of it all.

I'm so glad that I'm not alone here. Probably we all have our buttons that could be pushed to allow for manipulation, but since all of our buttons are different we can kinda keep an eye on each other.

I continue to like your style, and yes, you are very correct, if this person is having some kind of post cult convulsions, Malene has certainly provided ample information and support for handling that.

Whatever is going on, I'm glad you're here to help me keep my cool.

quote:

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Consciouslessly directed ignore-ance can be bliss...

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Yeah, well it won't be the first time I've been called a "bliss ninny".

Thanks Steve, Ted, UBB code, and my fathomless intelligence!!!!

I have NEVER e-mailed you or spoke to you personally except on this forum in this thread. I have NEVER been involved in the Concept Synergy forum. I have NEVER even been to a Lazaris Intensive. I will go for it now,here it is for all of you to see: The name of my company involved with Concept Synergy was The Mystical Garden my name is Kimberly, I shared this business with Timothy. I also owned another business which was a very large nightclub. Both of which were destroyed in the fire. Timothy and Kimberly are 2 separate people. We have 2 bodies, 2 minds, separate feelings and thoughts. If you would like I can send you a picture of us together. LOL

When Peny and I started e-mailing each other I had no clue who Peny North was. Although I had heard of the Lazaris material, I had never paid much attention to it. I had no idea who was involved with it. Peny herself never even told me that she was involved with Concept Synergy at the beginning. I found this out by a guy who was buying things from me. Then I received a call from someone who works for Peny who ended up sending us a sample pak of the material. We then carried this in our store. Peny and I never discussed much business in our e-mails, we maintained more of a personal relationship. She left this to staff members.
She bought many, many things from us. She sent birthday, Christmas gifts, flowers, presents for our new born baby, she helped us out financially by buying a huge overstock we had at one time. This she sent double the amount of $$ I asked for, for these items. We made hundreds of rune sets for them and she added money to the price we were asking for them. She was EXTREMELY generous. Sorry you find this hard to believe.

I read Timothy's post as I have stated before this his his perception, not mine. Let me clear it up for you.

Raphael said: Peny and I wrote to each other on almost a daily basis and I anxiously awaited those letters. We sent each other lovely gifts and I thought we had a special friendship. Then like out of nowhere I was quickly dismissed by a staffer. This is after almost 2 years of a friendship with Peny.

Too add insult to injury this all happened right after the time we lost our business to a fire, losing EVERYTHING. Including our home due to the loss of our income. We have 5 children to care for, no income and had to move across the country where family members were going to help us out. Looking back at this I felt as though the loss of my friend was the worse thing that happened. It was like a truck bashed me in the chest, my heart hurt so bad. I cried for days, so depressed and feeling so very alone. I loved Peny and would have stood by her side through anything. It truly devastated me.
_______________

I did have a staffer treat me with disrespect and I do believe that this staff member took something completely out of context and twisted it around. This indeed put a wedge in my and Peny's relationship. I do not blame Peny for this I blame the staff member. Timothy on the other hand feels as though this was explained adequately to Peny and she was wrong not to get it completely straightened out.

Timothy was right that I was devastated about not speaking to Peny through this time of need. I feel as I have ALREADY stated that through a 2 year stretch I had MANY saga's going on and it had to be exhausting for anyone to be my friend through this time. Every single day another horrible thing was going on in my life. Peny helped me through many, many situations. I must add which Timothy did not though, that we went over a month without access to a computer and we were living with family members so there was really no way of contacting me. I have had only a few brief e-mails with her in the past 6 months. I wrote to her sometime back and told her that I would not bombard her with e-mails anymore, I know she gets about 300 a day and is very busy. I told her if she decided she wanted to write to me I would love to hear from her. I may have also mentioned that I felt as though she was upset at me about something and that if I did anything to offend her I was sorry. I can't remember the e-mail word for word, but this was the gist of it.

Timothy has analyzed this whole thing and has decided that her and I writing each other was some preconceived plan she had to get us to carry Lazaris material and get some contacts from us. We have phenomenal crystal connections. He thinks our friendship was all a scam.

I don't know what more I can do except invite you to a webcam site when you have time and you can see we are 2 people with different thoughts.

Thanks for writing and providing some explanations.

What I still fail to understand about all of this is the content of the emails I received under your name and email address.

They are loaded with anger toward Peny, yet a clear sense of longing for a renewed relationship. One minute the mail says things like "I never want anything to do with Peny again" but then indicates otherwise in later statements. Are you saying that Timothy wrote this in your name and on your behalf? Was Timothy lying about you?

Did Concept Synergy accuse you of ripping them off? Did you fail to be paid for shipments you sent to them even though you had proof of delivery? Did you lose money on the sale of C/S tapes and just decide to eat it?

Did you receive confidential information from a C/S staffer and then from a Forum member telling you that you had been dismissed by Peny because she had no further use for you?
Did these people express raw fear about being exposed for providing this information?

Either these things are true, in which case you have ample reason to at least imagine that Peny could actually deliberately hurt some one, or they are not true, in which case someone, you or Timothy, completely made it all up, why? To what end?

Was it you or Timothy who stated that you would no longer respond to any of Peny's emails? If it was Timothy, what was his point in stating that, if it was false information?

You wrote here that all this is making you sick to your stomach, and that exact statement was made in the email too. Those mails sound exactly like your posts here, all but possibly the last one which does seem to use a different writing style. Perhaps both you and Timothy wrote to me? Why? I still can't figure that out. What was the agenda and whose was it?

The emailer also asked me many questions about Peny, Jach, the nature of their relationship, what I know about Peny, etc.
Why would either of you think that I know more about Peny and Jach or have any answers that you as a close friend would not have?
Those questions feel like a fishing expedition to me. They also ask about the experiences of others which have been privately shared with me. Why? Why do you or Timothy want to know what I know beyond what has been written here?

One mail states that you are registered on our board as Raphael and ends "I have washed my hands of C/S, Peny and Lazaris. I thank you for your sight I
had felt I was the only one having these thoughts."

Another mail says: "Peny informed me that they were all programming against this negativity and that you were so venomous because of you have such a terrible marriage and are very negative, unhappy people. Obviously Peny is an unhappy person obsessed by wealth and what others think
about her."

Whose words are they? Yours or Timothy's? Why would Timothy represent you as saying that if it was him who wrote the mail?

The point here is that someone using your computer is lying. One of you has written that you have finished with Peny, want nothing to do with her, and that the circumstances of your business relationship and friendship are not as you are stating them here to be, loving and profitable exchanges between two people who care about each other and are close friends with no indication of any negativity. Which is it, who is writing, and why?

You admit that you are under pressure from Timothy to see another side of Peny, that you do have evidence and experience to support the possibility that Peny is not all she claims to be, or all Lazaris claims her to be, but in your initial post you state that you could never imagine her hurting anyone on purpose. All of this information shared from your computer strongly indicates otherwise. Someone with access to your computer has been hurt by Peny, or is completely lying about it.

I'm still trying to figure out what the hell is going on here, and your recent post, while a bit more illuminating, still does not answer the questions. A picture of you and Timothy will not provide the answers.

Can you see why I feel that we are being manipulated here Kimberly, why I'm untrusting about your motives in posting here, and still completely unclear about the actual facts of the situation, including even your true identity.

One thing that is abundantly clear to me is that whatever the truth, whoever it is who is writing, there is some deep pain and confusion going on. This isn't a therapy site but most of us have and continue to experience those ourselves.

Beyond providing a forum for free expression, Ted and I have hoped that this message board would serve to provide support for those who are confused and hurting over their experiences with Lazaris specifically, or with manipulative groups in general. That is much more important to me than the intimate details of people's relationship with Peny.

Could we clear up these questions, since they are now out there on the table, and possibly move on once we have identified who is hurting and confused and why?

Kimberly, I think you can see that this is a group of caring thoughtful people, but even if we are skalliwags from hell, we still don't deserve to be lied to or manipulated.

Katie

As I have stated in a previous post I have NEVER e-mailed you. Timothy was e-mailing you under an e-mail address I never use. I stated this once before. Why he was signing my name is way beyond me and as I expressed this really upset me. Maybe you should ask him. As I also stated he will be back tomorrow and maybe he can answer your questions. It seems I am repeatedly getting asked the same questions over and over again.

Katie said: They are loaded with anger toward Peny, yet a clear sense of longing for a renewed relationship. One minute the mail says things like "I never want anything to do with Peny again" but then indicates otherwise in later statements. Are you saying that Timothy wrote this in your name and on your behalf? Was Timothy lying about you?

Did Concept Synergy accuse you of ripping them off? Did you fail to be paid for shipments you sent to them even though you had proof of delivery? Did you lose money on the sale of C/S tapes and just decide to eat it?
__________________________

The only thing I can imagine Timothy saying about me longing for a "renewed relationship" (which quite frankly I have never heard him use that phrase, so this is somewhat skeptical to me) Is that I do miss my e-mails from Peny, I have not written to her since the last e-mail I mentioned in the previous post.

I don't recall not getting paid for any shipments that we made to Concept Synergy. When Timothy comes back I will ask him what this is all about.
We did receive several tapes that we had not ordered before. I really don't think this would be Peny's fault though.

The only thing I can even speculate that Timothy meant about the ripping off thing is that a Staff member (who caused the problems I spoke of before in the last post) Said they did not receive a shipment and I let her know that they indeed did and that there was proof of delivery from her in an e-mail she sent stating they got the package. We were paid for this though. We had one shipment that apparently never arrived and we did eat the cost on that one. It was about 1200.00. I don't believe Timothy or my assistant ever got proof of delivery on that one, it still remains a mystery to me.

Katie said: You admit that you are under pressure from Timothy to see another side of Peny, that you do have evidence and experience to support the possibility that Peny is not all she claims to be, or all Lazaris claims her to be, but in your initial post you state that you could never imagine her hurting anyone on purpose. All of this information shared from your computer strongly indicates otherwise. Someone with access to your computer has been hurt by Peny, or is completely lying about it.
_________________________

I really cannot imagine Peny sitting around thinking up evil plots to deliberately hurt people. I also do not blame Peny for things her staff members do. Timothy on the other hand feels differently about it than I do. Timothy is VERY angry with Peny because he feels very protective of me and as I stated it did hurt me when Peny and I lost contact. You will probably be perfectly happy to know that since I found out Timothy was writing people using my name this has severely harmed our relationship. I feel very betrayed by him. I shared personal conversations I had had with Peny with Timothy and obviously he felt the need to tell you about them.

Katie said: You admit that you are under pressure from Timothy to see another side of Peny, that you do have evidence and experience to support the possibility that Peny is not all she claims to be, or all Lazaris claims her to be, but in your initial post you state that you could never imagine her hurting anyone on purpose. All of this information shared from your computer strongly indicates otherwise. Someone with access to your computer has been hurt by Peny, or is completely lying about it.
____________________________

Do I really have to be this repetitive? To be quite frank, Timothy hates concept synergy, Peny, and anyone else associated with concept synergy. I have never e-mailed you,or posted under an alias. Timothy see's things with Peny and Concept Synergy much different than I do. I am sorry you choose not to believe this. Why you are filled with this paranoia is beyond me. This is ridiculous and truly beyond any issues being discussed on your message board. You are attacking me and calling me a liar and you don't even know me. I have never been on the forum, but this seems like what you were talking about going on in the forum. Just because I have a different view than you, and Timothy all of the sudden I am some split personality conniving lying nut. Maybe before you pass judgement on me, you should get to know me. I think that you would find me a very different person than you are trying to portray me.

Katie said: One thing that is abundantly clear to me is that whatever the truth, whoever it is who is writing, there is some deep pain and confusion going on. This isn't a therapy site but most of us have and continue to experience those ourselves.

Beyond providing a forum for free expression, Ted and I have hoped that this message board would serve to provide support for those who are confused and hurting over their experiences with Lazaris specifically, or with manipulative groups in general. That is much more important to me than the intimate details of people's relationship with Peny.
___________________________

This Katie I think says it all. If you want to discuss Peny's appearance or call her names it is fine to post here. Well, I don't feel the need to call anyone names, talk poorly about someone's physical appearance or treat people with a different point of view as they are just a liar or a fraud. I have tried to explain myself and only MYSELF. Timothy can do the same for HIMSELF. Choose to believe what you wish. I will no longer defend my self against the paranoid accusations that are being made here about me.

I wish you all well with your Paths and Jade I think your jewelry is absolutely exquisite.

Vicki & Demian Thank you for kind thoughts and not passing judgement.

Kimberly

There seems to be a tremendous amount of draining drama in your life. You are expressing yourself——but any one here is also free to express their distrust of you. I don't trust you, not because your view is different from mine or "Timothy's," but because the dramas that you and/or "Timothy" have been presenting here do not make it sound that you have a consistent story or quite franky, that you have a particularly strong reason to want to be here. I can't understand wanting to take time away from your 5 (!) kids, your businesses, your fiancee and the responsibilities that having so much on your plate would entail, in order to write long, long letters defending a woman who you knew only peripherily through business to gain an identity on this board. Mmmmm...what exactly is it that you want here?

Karolina

I bought a crystal skull from you on ebay. A small smokey skull. Did you call him Socrates? ".. anyway it is a fantastic skull.

Whatever the case, you have certainly been through hell this past year and I don't think anyone here wants to add to that stress. I say this because you wrote something to the effect that people here would be "glad to know" this has created problems in your relationship with your fiance.

I don't think anyone here would be glad for that Kimberly, really. I know you feel put on the defensive but all of us here are very wary of the possibility that someone might post here with unsavory agendas.

you wrote:

[[I really cannot imagine Peny sitting around thinking up evil plots to deliberately hurt people. I also do not blame Peny for things her staff members do.]]

Kimberly, I can completely imagine Peny carefully and quite willfully doing whatever she had to do to protect herself and her interests.

I think most of us who have had exposure to Peny know this.

Look for what its worth, my experience of Peny is that she will woo the pants off of you if she wants something and as soon as she has gotten from you what she wants, she turns cold.

I know this is painful to consider and only you can really know this but did Peny want something from you?

I hate to say it but it certainly sounds as though she was trying to gain your confidence, friendship and trust in order to get something from you.

You certainly shouldn't feel obliged to post anything too personal or painful but I would just ask you to consider [for yourself] the facts.

I did notice that all the "generosity" from Peny that you describe was really no skin off her ass at all.

It sounds like a tactic actually,[ paying more than the agreed upon price, gifts etc] to manipulate you into loosing perspective on her and the boundaries between your business and personal relationship.

Why would Peny pay more than she agreed to? I can only speculate that she wanted something from you and she was priming the pump.

My guess is that when she got what she wanted [whatever that was] she was done with you.

I think her "generosity" was a tool she used to blind you to her agenda. That is my opinion based on seeing her operate with other people and to a much lesser extent myself.

As for this 300 a day e-mail business and how busy she is..bla bla all I can say is : bullshit. When I was in daily contact wih Peny for a month or so, I would email her and get a response in minutes. No matter what time of the day or night, it was rare I waited for a response more than a few hours.

I think when she wants something from somebody she is never too busy. I also have serious doubts about how damn "busy" she is.

Kimberly, why don't you hold Peny responsible for the behavior of her staff?

She runs that damn smelly outfit and they attend upon her like withering drones. I think it may be of interest for you to know that I strongly suspect that the people that work for Peny viciously compete for her approval and attention. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of them were jealous of your contact with Peny and helped sabotage it.

But why don't you hold Peny responsible for that dynamic?

She created it and she sustains it. Peny is, I believe, the muscle behind that organization.

Welcome again,

Jeremiah

[This message has been edited by Jeremiah (edited 02-17-2001).]

You accuse Katie of paranoia. Paranoia is an irrational fear. There is no fear nor lack of rationality involved here. Our concern about who you and/or Timothy are and what which one of you have written is based on rationality - the fact that someone using your computer lied to us. You don't dispute that that is a fact, do you?

You continue to accuse us of hounding you because your opinion of Peny differs from ours. You have been told that is not the case. No one has said that your opinion is not welcomed and valued. This is a straw man - the issue here is who is lying, you or Timothy. And why.

You fault us for being suspicious. Would you not be suspicious if the shoe were on the other foot? The emails that you claim were written by Timothy bear a striking resemblance in style to your posts: The use of the word "sight" in place of "site" (not a real common mistake), the use of the terms, "quite frankly", "sick to my stomach" and "I must say". Certainly these resemblances do not constitute proof, but they do seem highly coincidental.

I can understand your frustration with not being trusted, but the cause of it is either you, if you are lying now, or Timothy, if he wrote in your name - not us. No one here is asking you to provide details of your personal life - you made that choice.

Oh those beautiful skulls. Now, that is a subject I could go on for days about. You may have bought the skull from me. We sold hundreds of them throughout the years. We used to be located in Indiana until about 6 months ago. I have a friend who just got a shipment of Aquamarine skulls, I have got to have one! : )

You said: I don't think anyone here would be glad for that Kimberly, really. I know you feel put on the defensive but all of us here are very wary of the possibility that someone might post here with unsavory agendas.
______________________

I do understand that and am sensitive to that. I am just getting frustrated explaining the same thing over and over again. Reading some of the posts here about the way people feel and have been hurt I do understand why it would be hard to trust people. I really had no unsavory agenda and I am really sorry that anyone feels this way.
___________________________

You said: Kimberly, I can completely imagine Peny carefully and quite willfully doing whatever she had to do to protect herself and her interests.

I think most of us who have had exposure to Peny know this.

Look for what its worth, my experience of Peny is that she will woo the pants off of you if she wants something and as soon as she has gotten from you what she wants, she turns cold.
____________________________

As I told Timothy maybe it would hurt too much at this point to think of our whole friendship as a scam. I am also the type of person who truly tries to see the beautiful qualities in everyone. I try to be a good friend to those who I meet. I want you to know Jeremiah, I do not think anybody here is lying about what has happened to them. If I implied that in anyway I am sorry. There was a post written on here a while back about Lazaris/Jach trying to tear apart a mother and daughter. This was very sad to me. Maybe I have just been hoping that I had something different than some of you here had with Peny. Karolina asked in a post "what is it exactly you want here?" I really don't "want" anything. Now after things have unfolded in the past few days, maybe I am seeking knowledge.

I do feel that everyone needs a place where they can go where they can trust the others they share with. I am sorry some of you feel the way you do about me and that you can't trust me. I don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable about me being here. I will leave you all be, but if you don't mind I would like to read here and I shall leave my thoughts and or dilemma's to myself. If anyone has any questions or thoughts for me I would be glad to correspond via e-mail. Good or bad I will try to answer your questions. mystgrdn@tampabay.rr.com or speakswithangels@hotmail.com.

quote:

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The only "issue" I was attempting to get to was that there is a beautiful view of Peny that I have seen and experienced.

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Maybe because you were not involved with the "Lazaris" Material you were not fully aware that all of us were handed a dazzlingly "beautiful view" of Peny on a golden platter. "Lazaris" repeatedly made it clear that she was the shining light that initially attracted "them" -- the reason "Lazaris" came to the rest of us. If you have read through this site you already know this.

Placing trust in 'Lazaris" also involved trusting Peny. As is also detailed on this site, both she and Jach and ultimately "Lazaris" have proved to be most untrustworthy. If her abandonment left you feeling that you had done something wrong, maybe you can see that differently.

I made a post to "Raphael" a while back. I included some personal feelings and details about what I had experienced on the forum. I might as well have been addressing a brick wall, because the response was limited to how to help Peny -- as if she is more worthy of concern than the folks she dumps on. As I understand that was actually Timothy posting about your abandonment by her. Then he responded as if he were you, I guess. Obviously the only agenda was your lost friendship with her, and my post was just something to bounce off of. I know that was Timothy's post, not yours. But from that experience I learned that I should be more guarded with new posters, inspite of the efforts put forth by Katie and Ted to protect this site.

quote:

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Now after things have unfolded in the past few days, maybe I am seeking knowledge.

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Seeking knowledge and understanding, that's what we are all doing here. I welcome another seeker if that is your goal.

Here's a mystery thread yet to be unravelled.

At the time these posts and emails from "Kimberly, Timothy, Raphael" were coming I didn't know to or think to compare IP addresses with mail I'd received from Peny, but much later I thought to (DUH) and voila, it was the same address.

I was actually trying to find the thread on "memes" so don't ask me how this one came up, but it is quite a walk down memory lane.

What I'm now thinking is that "Kimberly" was Peny, and "Timothy" was Michaell. It's funny, I never thought about Michaell that much, but upon reflection I can imagine how they might have been having conflict over all that was written here, and that he might be trying to advise her to stay away, etc, and she then projected all those conversations into this crazy pretense.

I don't know, it could make you crazy thinking about all of this. I wonder if there ever was a real person who sold crystal skulls and runes to Peny with whom there was this weird relationship that Peny drew on in creating this entire fantasy scenario.

One thing is for sure, that woman was totally nuts.

There's something about the kind of person who feels the need to pose as someone else as a way of getting their point across or just to manipulate others with some huge deceit scene.

The more I encounter people like that, the more I see the thread of arrogance contempt for others that runs through the minds.

We've had quite a few of these posers here, and they are always the most holy, self-righteous, or superior people when you find out who they really are.

So, I guess maybe one thing that is highlighted by all of this is that the super smug of the world aren't usually really all that confident in themselves since they believe that they have to create false personnas and play head trips with people rather than just allow that others might be interested in who they actually are.

Also, it seems to be a common strategy as used here by Peny, as a way for someone to defend themselves against the indefensible since no one else will.

Whatever, Peny was one unhappy, unhealthy, insecure, imbalanced chick. And Michaell was probably right there by her side.

And here was me thinking that all he ever did was cute pool tricks and cold cereal art.

I don't know if I ever posted this before, I think not.

It's from a person who was very close to the Con:Scam in early days who wishes to remain anonymous:

quote:

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I read the reports and "why do you think Jach and /or Lazaris allowed this to go on?".

Just a thought that came to mind reading Peny's condition and the lack of response to her condition.

Remember that Peny was the disintegrating 6 Safety personality by her own definition.

Her insistence on Loyalty as a personality and cult leader was her highest priority with everyone, having people love her was not, control was.

I can see this as final outcome of Peny's control over those around her, Pushing this to the extreme it is the ultimate test of loyalty for those around her was to have her wishes followed even if it killed her.

Remember she was not a sane woman with little interest in her impact on the other who would want to help, The struggle to do what was right verses staying loyal to her wishes not to have doctors and help. In this situation I can see that she got loyalty and not help. A conditioned staff, husband and Jach all numb of feelings. Not unlike the paralysis of not being to response to another's pain in the group for fear of being dis-loyal.

Given the level of control and pain I have seen around Peny, the results do not shock me, I would say that it was inevitable. Sad to say for any person including Peny, Micheal was so controlled that not only did he let his wife die he killed himself. for the rest what a sense of guilt they must feel for following her wishes (control from the grave) and not thier feeling of love for her.

This is what struck me as I read the reports and thought about why others didn't respond differently.

This is not to negate any responsibility for the true lack of judgment not to force Peny to seek help.

I think Peny wrote the script and the rest are just bad actors including Jach. !!!

My two cents worth for what it is worth!!

---

Interesting, huh?

I can end all this confusion.

I assure you it was not Peny posting all that time ago. It was me, Kimberly.

Timothy is my husband and we did sell skulls and runes to Peny. I suppose you could go to my seller name mystgrden at e-bay and verify.

I did in fact have a warm and friendly relationship with Peny. She was kind and caring to me. I am sorry that this was not many peoples experience.

It does sadden me when I read these posts and truely I recognize you can never really know someone through e-mails, etc. I only stated in my early posts that she was kind to me.

Anyway, I still visit here and read from time to time and there have been many times I had wished to join in the conversation. I thought this might be a good time since I was brought up again. LOL