Whew, this board is amazing! I'm just loving all these wonderful posts over the past few days. It's very inspiring and exciting to read here these days. Much nicer than the several months when Ted and I were essentially posting back and forth to each other, and had the good fortune to host the occasional wandering refugee from some New Age UFO message board or the like.

I sure lost my serenity today though, let me tell ya! Maybe you noticed on my Dim Bulb Burning thread!

I mentioned there that someone had shared some thoughts on another siege in the Forum and I got enough detail to make me feel as though I was back there having my mind bent again. Creepy stuff, very very creepy.

These guys are relentless. But, we've all talked about that over and over again.

What occurred to me as I was pondering all this is that the big change from my Forum days is my awareness of mind control tactics, and that I've spent a lot of time evaluating how C/S, especially the Forum uses them.

I was thinking how no one ever brings these concepts into the "loving conversations" so they remain inside the "set" that C/S has defined for what is appropriate and rational behavior. It's scary to realize how many people remain influenced by this skewed perspective, yet the True Believers remain True for the most part. (Except for us renegades of course!) The names were the same, and so were the words, but there seem to be more of them, with some serious crudeness sprinkled in for good measure. It seems that the boundaries have stretched to allow for flat out vicious, filthy,threatening language now. At least when I was there, there was a bit more of a facade of decency. Could it possibly be true that Peny actually said she would like to smack someone in the face? Is she that out of control now, or was she always? Is that OK with any of you reading along here? Is that what you call Love?

I know it's hard for some, or even unthinkable to label C/S as a cult. It sounds so far fetched and ridiculous to some, I'm sure. The thing is that no one has to accept my evaluation of that. There is so much information available, and I know I keep saying that, but I hope it encourages people to do some homework. Especially those who read here to prove to themselves what a bunch of "negative ego" asses we all are. How about stepping outside of that C/S defined "integrity" and see how it holds up when compared to well known and widely accepted cults, like Scientology? Let's see if the glove fits, and then you can forget about worrying what our motives are here, and relieve yourselves of the burden of analyzing our characters and states of consciousness. I know the Forum teaches that as a responsibility, but I challenge that, and ask you to put that fundamental premise to the litmus test. Snap out of it people, this is not about anyone's "negative ego". This is manipulated abuse. Wake up!

Prove something else to yourselves, prove that C/S doesn't meet the criteria if you have the courage. Even "Lazaris" would encourage you to research, think and evaluate. Surely you couldn't convince yourself that it would be an insult to "them" to do so. Why not exercise that integrity we keep hearing about?

I'm posting a link to Steve Hassan's excellent Cult Awareness website, specifically the section which explains his BITE method for evaluating whether or not a group meets the criteria for a cult or destructive group. Steve is a prominent cult expert, and from my perspective does an incredible job of providing all the tools anyone could need to do their own evaluations. Steve's domain is Freedom of Mind, how could anyone not be interested in taking a peek there?

BITE is an acronym for four kinds of control;
Behavior, Information, Thought, Emotions.

Also, on Steve's site there is a submission form, which is intended for use by those who wish to have their group included on the list of suspected cults, but it is also an exercise for anyone who is open and willing to ask themselves questions. The form can be filled out and not submitted, following the exercise doesn't necessarily mean that you have to send it in. The exercise follows the BITE criteria.

I filled it out a few months ago when I first visited Steve's site, and at first I wasn't seeing how C/S fit the mold. Then, little by little, the questions began to make me think and remember. How were I and others Behavior, Information, Thoughts and Emotions controlled? When I heard these new stories today, it all came in a flood. Because I had this model in my mind, I could easily see what was happening, and I knew why this time. I was very much able to stand outside the C/S logic and apply my own.

What is happening to people in the Forum isn't funny. I can make my jokes about it, we all can. But, it simply is not really one bit funny. People are being judged, humiliated, and sickened, by ugly swipe after ugly swipe, and it seems that more and more people are jumping in to take their shots. I heard that one poster actually wrote and apologized for not helping out more, after a little lecture from one of the Jr. Gangstas and then she timidly took her first shot. Applause, applause, we have a new Gangster in training.

But, what these sycophants don't get is that they will NEVER be full fledged Gangsters. Not only that, but they are for the most part torn to shreds behind closed doors by the Grand Gang Members. This is one bit of Information which is carefully controlled.

READ THIS PEOPLE: YOU ARE BEING RIDICULED BEHIND CLOSED DOORS. ALL OF YOU!!! IT IS WHAT THEY DO FOR SPORT.

Think about it, think about the nasty nasty way they talk in the Forum, the flat out plain as the nose on your face ugliness is WHO THEY ARE. They practice it over tea and crumpets served from Peny's expensive chintz china that you so generously paid for.

Jach and Peny give NOTHING to anyone, you have paid for every word out of Jach's mouth, and paid handsomely. How can you believe that you are being given a GIFT? That mantra is no more than a cheap marketing trick. How many of you hang up the phone when some telemarketer excitedly informs you that you just qualified for a GIFT? What is the first question anyone with half a brain asks? "How much will it cost?" How much is this GIFT costing you?

OK, I'm finished. Maybe you can tell that I'm fired up tonight. I am outraged at what I heard today.

So, anyone want to talk about the BITE model?
and whether or not they see C/S fitting it?

All the best,

Katie

Dear Katie,

I agree with the assessment that CS has developed into a cult.

I don't hold much hope for the world to sit up and take too much notice though. CS is a relatively minor wart amongst warts when you consider the powerful Scientology cult which I think is the closest to CS in terms of attracting intelligent, sincere people with a combination of ancient truth and psychological manipulation.

Despite the negative press that Scientology has gotten over the years, they still thrive, TAX EXEMPT attracting new followers daily.

There will always be a percentage of people who kid themselves they are being mavericks when they are really being led.

Sometimes people with the tendency to question traditional thinking and buck society are the most vulnerable to cult thinking because they don't rely on society for approval. It is easy for them to risk loosing the approval of the world it they think the payoff is worth it in the end.

I think many people that are attracted to Lazaris fit that description. Their hunger for information and above average curiosity allow them to overlook what others would be hung up on. It is a wonderful trait but one that hucksters can exploit.

What makes CS unique is that it does not position itself as a text driven religion. There is no proclaimed scripture or church hierarchy. It looks to the world like some crack headed new age publishing company.

Of course, we know they are as dogmatic and hierarchical as any old time religion. Pope Peny, Cardinals North and North inhabit their own little "Vatican City" replete with all the political games on a much smaller scale.

The fact remains unless you have seen them operate in the forum the fangs of this operation are well hidden.

What I think is so valuable about this is that so many people who have really invested themselves in this material and find themselves worse and not better after years of “love and magic” have a place to sort it out.

Thanks again to you and Ted for putting this together,

Jeremiah

I just reread the post I sent and it looks like in all my rambling I didn't make the point I set out to make...lol

As I told you as my doubts about CS grew I used to troll the internet looking at the cult sites to see if anyone listed CS. None of them except on Christian one did. But I think they also said The Rolling Stones were a cult so it was easy to dismiss. LOL

I would love to see the major cult sites consider CS suspect and I am afraid my last post kind of dismissed that as valuable, which was not my intention.

I meant to emphasize that anyone finding this site most likely has serious doubts and they know something tawdry has been done to them.

They know, they have to.

I hope they have the self respect to uncover the truth, however painful or disallusioning that truth is.

I am betting that they will. Most of the people involved with Lazaris are about as good hearted and sincere as you can get.

I am betting on that.

Cheers,

I think ConSwept:SinEnergy can be brought to the attention of the "world." One step at a time. I don't know how Scientology is still running, but I think that having a bunch of loyal celebrities probably helps. I don't believe that if any of those celebs saw people being treated like in the Forum, etc. they would remain so loyal. I may be wrong. But call it a strong hunch.

Sorry all, I was practicing the icons here, this isn't a commentary on the thread! LOL

oops again!!

What I discovered is that when you are editing a post you can't delete every word, you have to leave something in, hence the

This new board is fun, thanks again Ted.

Love,

Katie

You wrote:

[[I don't know how Scientology is still running, but I think that having a bunch of loyal celebrities probably helps. I don't believe that if any of those celebs saw people being treated like in the Forum, etc. they would remain so loyal. I may be wrong. But call it a strong hunch]]

Damn, it is a head scratcher isn't it? After all the exposure and well documented stories of the worst kinds of assaults.

I just took a look at the Scientolgy web page and it is masterfully put together.

They have cleverly positioned themselves as a humanitarian organization dedicated to free thought and free expression. LOL

Reading this site you would think it is the noblest group of idealists on the planet.

As for the celebrities, my belief is that they are aware of the accusations made against the Church of Scientology and they either do not believe them or they are afraid to speak out.

The Scientology web page cleverly states it will not list its celebrity members because they feel it is inappropriate..LOL..noble huh? Nevermind it is completely unecessary to list them because the celebrities speaking on their own are probably what draw most people to the site in the first place.

It could be the church has compromising information about celebrities that would damage their public images and they keep them in line with the threat of exposure.

That is the rumor anyway, don't know if its true.

I do hope as you write that Concept Synergy [even the title was lifted from Buckminster Fuller wasn't it?] will be exposed one step at a time.

Interesting most of the celebrities that have associated with CS seem to have distanced themselves.

I wouldn't be surprised if CS moved to LA to court celbrities and found it much more difficult than they imagined. I believe this is what is the grinding motivation behind all of their anti-show rant.

Cheers,

Probably The Church of Scientology does have dirt on the celebs.

This was 87 years ago , but when I was fresh out of college, Scientology Mongers that I knew tried to rope me in. I signed up for some beginning courses and went to the first one. If I remember correctly, I believe we went into a little room——my leader person and I——and there was some kind of lie detector-type machine and I was supposed to start talking about myself as the guy took notes. Since the hair on the back of my neck started to bristle, I didn't talk, but left and quit. But ... imagine the people who do talk for years. That's a helluva lot of info and there's bound to be some humiliating stuff in there.

thank you for this message board. I love it.

I'd like to share my perspective of Lazaris and the forum with you. A quick introduction: I'm Claus, from Germany (so please forgive my not so perfect English....). I heard about Lazaris when I looked for information in the CompuServe New Age forum about five years ago. And there they were: Peny, Jach, Michaele... and a lot of seemingly joyful people. I quickly learned about Lazaris and I thought that his material would be an interesting addition for the Seth stuff I had been reading for years. I ordered tapes (lots of them, over the years...) and I enjoyed them. What a loving entitiy, this Lazaris! That was my impression. Of course I was curious about the people behind Lazaris: Jach and Peny et al. Friendly people, encouraging free flowing discussion. So I thought. A warm, cozy and safe place. I was sucked in quickly, shared beliefs, private stories, anecdotes.

But soon I discovered some things that bothered me: That right-wing talk, bizarre theories about Clinton as a murderer, conspiracy theories about a certain TWA flight. Weird stuff. But I kept open-minded: May be there is a little bit of truth in that theories? May be there is something to learn? And what would other, more liberal people in the forum say about it? I exspected great political and spiritual discussions.

But these discussions were never encouraged.

Some people with other, "liberal" opinions were ignored, humiliated, ridiculed - including me. There was one poster from the inner circle of Peny's friends sending me on guilt trips - more than once. I always quickly apologized. After all, I didn't want to hurt someone's feelings. And I felt like someone who hasn't learned "the rules" yet. So I began censoring my feelings, doubts and postings.

I learned them quickly.

The rules: Everything that was not written in a certain manner - if Jach was not praised and thanked enough, if someone doubted the spirituality of supporting the death penalty and so on - everything was almost instantly attacked by faithful Lazarians.

Peny and Jach themselves never attacked me. In direct conversations, they in fact were friendly to me. But I was witness of Lazarians bashing people who didn't belong to "them". They were quick defending Peny against all questions and doubts that were not so comfortable - e.g. valid questions about why the Lazaris cassettes and seminars are so expensive. The funny thing is: Peny avoided an direct answer and *I* stepped forward to defend Peny and methods of making money. I guess I just wanted to gain her respect. I made myself very small by doing this.

I will post more another time. That should be enough for the beginning...

Claus

Your thoughts, feelings, and opinions are valuable and I look forward to hearing more from you.

I didn't belong to the Compuserve forum but I remember hearing that there were groups that "they" said were doing black magic or some such thing....which was asking only direct questions, I'm sure. Anyway, due to the negativity, they opened a private and "safe" forum.

Germany is one of the most beautiful countries, I've been told by people who have been there. And you write beautifully!

Welcome again,

What's happening in the forum to sincere, loving people isn't funny at all. I'm really glad you started this thread and hope that we can all add a little something to help those readiing to gain a clearer understanding of "cult tactics."

They can be so subtle and they can be very obvious. Either way, there are many ways to awaken "fear" or a type of "cocky confidence."

One example: Lazaris mentioned cults -in passing- at a workshop. Guess he didn't want to give it too much energy, as "they" say.

The thing is, just his mentioning it, and in passing at that, inspired in me the false confidence that I certainly didn't belong to a cult. I recall him stressing to us that we do everything by our own free choice...that it is our preference to attend a workshop.

BUT, as I think back, I wonder why he felt he had to mention "cults" at all. It was during the talk shortly after he came through and the actual seminar hadn't yet begun. Yeah, it's doesn't make sense that he would even use the word "cult" or have anything to say about them without a reason. You know it had nothing to do with the topic of the seminar at all!

I think they've just about "covered" almost everything with half-truths. Those half-truths are extremely dangerous, for sure.

Anyway...Food for more thought....

Love,

Yes, the "safe" forum: As far as I remember it happened that in the old CompuServe days the System Operator of the forum was questioning a thread in which Peny verbally insulted Hillary Clinton VERY harshly. The SYSOP got an very bold letter back (made public to the forum) in which Peny declared herself as "one of the leaders of the New Age movement". Very unsatisfying answer, I thought. Hours later there came the "me-too" posts: How courageous Peny is standing up for Lazaris and: "You're not one of the leaders of the New Age movement, you're THE leader!"

What a sad joke, and what a clear sign for cultist behaviour. To make it evident, Peny didn't deny this proclamation.

As far as I know this incident was the "reason" why C/S left CompuServe.

And yes, speaking about Germany - I remember a forum member talking about the "huge influence" of aristocrats on modern German society - they would control almost everything.

For me, a posting like this made me aware how uneducated many of the Lazarians are. One member (this right wing guy) when confronted with a comparision of Plato's philosophy with the teachings of Lazaris was even proud NOT to know Plato and his philosophy. What arrogance.

More later.

Claus

I'm delighted that you found us and have chosen to share your experiences with the Con:Sin organization.

Boy, do I recognize what you describe here, this reaction of self subservience when confronted with the amazing abuse of individuals and logic served up in the name of Spiritual Enlightenment by that Gang.

I too, for a long time questioned my own feelings and beliefs, all of which were the result of my lifetime of experiences and observations. All of a sudden, I'm confronted with this way of thinking which is completely inconsistant, not only with my own sense of integrity and logic, but which also flies in the face of the Lazaris materials. Who of us would have continued studying if Lazaris was spewing out the kind of verbal venom and childish temper tantrum politics that we experienced in these Forum?

God, I knew so much better, and I knew that much of what the bully Gangsta you refer to had to say was indicative of complete historical and sociological ignorance, but still, I allowed myself to give it undue consideration, sometimes even belief. That so many of us did this is demonstrative to me of the effectivness of the mind control tactics they use. I mean, who can question the wisdom of those closest to the "Great Entity?". Setting yourself up as a representative of God is a really effective technique for avoiding any responsibility to support or document the statements you make.
After all, these guys had Lazaris sessions served up regularly, along with their steaming cups of Ghiradelli hot chocolate sipped out of chintz teacups. Who could question that?

I suspect that Peny's particular kindness to you stemmed from her desire to cultivate an international audience. From my observation Peny's "kindness" always has an ulterior motive attached to it. Peny and Con:Sin staff love mentioning the fact that people come from all over the world to attend Lazaris events.

I wonder if you ever pondered the reasons that "Lazaris" never bothered to speak to you in your native language. I mean, what is something as mundane as language to an all aware entity? That is one little puzzle piece that I've had stashed under my carpet since the beginning.

So, thanks so much for writing and making a contribution to our little group here. It really is so nice to know that our participation here is meaningful to others, and that each day it seems we find someone else who is having the same thoughts we are expressing here.

It's always exhilerating to see another person stand up.

I'm looking forward to getting to know you better Claus. Welcome, Welcome!

Welcome to the site You certainly don't need to apologize for your command of the English language - you seem to be doing just fine.

You mentioned the tapes being expensive - how about the fact that they use the cheapest quality cassettes, so that they stop working after a few listenings? I guess I won't be having that problem anymore[g].

God. I remember sitting on the curb infront of my home in Fairfax, CA with a wiser, older, real estatre millionare :0) hippie friend who had escaped a Hindu meditation cult during the '60's.

That was 4 1/2 years ago.. @ the more "open" Compuserve Forum. I felt my guts had been wrenched out... I began my Lazaris lap dog career back in 1985 -- all to end in a chat hell pit with a bunch of brain-dead, far right wing, emotionally unreal new age 'blue hairs' satanifying Bill Clinton.

It's oh-so good to have ones eyes opened -- at last... just the same!

Cheers to you -

Steve

How's this for a cult tactic:
Peny has been known to refer to ex-Lazarians as "crabs". I don't think she means that we are irritable - she's refering to the fact that crabs left in captivity will pull crabs back who are attempting to gain their freedom.

I would estimate that there are maybe 3,000 people worldwide who work regularly with the Lazaris Material. And some of these people need to be beaten "back into their adults" by the High Priests and Priestesses of Orlando. That means that, out of 5 billion people on the planet, less than 3,000 are safe to associate with!

Or, as Harpers' Index would put it: 1,666,666:1 - the ratio of inhabitants of Earth to the number that are "safe". So if you live in a metropolitan area of half a million people, there is probably noone but yourself who is not of the "Consensus Reality". Quite an exclusive club!

Most cults have descriptive terms for people not of the cult - e.g. Hare Krishnas refer to non-believers as "karmies", those still subject to the laws of karma. There is always lingo within cults to differentiate the "saved" from the "unsaved". In the Con:Sin cult, the unsaved are of the Consensus Reality, Consensus for short. The saved can still have compassion for the unsaved, but they need not take them seriously. The "saved" people's job is to save the unsaved, by being Map-Makers or by proselytizing.

As in most cults, the ex-believers are considered more dangerous even than those who never believed. They are to be avoided at all costs. Dehumanized by being likened to "crabs".

A belated welcome. Had to take a few days off while becoming a grandmother. I really appreciate your input here. And it's good to hear a perspective that isn't American for a change.

I too found a lot of value in the Seth books. Reading your posts and Jeremiah's reminds me of how easy it was to transition from Seth into "Lazaris." In fact after Jane Robert's death there was a vacumm of sorts, which made an opening which wouldn't have been there if she hadn't died.

Jane and her husband Robert never moved out of the modest Elvira, NY apartment where she held small classes. They didn't turn the channeling (which I do think was genuine) into an opportunistic business endeavor. Without fear manipulations, there was no groundwork for a cult.

I actually had spiritual experiences that were more intense and "enlightening" when I was reading the Seth books than after becoming involved with C:S. Obviously those books had a lot more real validity and integrity than "Lazaris", because they were not a con. I didn't lose important things like my trust, my integrity, and my direct relationship with my Self and All That Is. I'm not planning to get into Seth like I did before, but rembering is helping me weed out the "Lazaris's" B.S.

Another thing I'm remembering is tha Seth would occasionally talk about himself and his reality. Since "Lazaris" said he had never been physical, and his reality was to gargantuan for us to understand, actually knowing him beyond his phony beneficent love was impossible. Nice cover.

Love,
Jade

Congratulations on your new grand child.

you wrote:

[[Reading your posts and Jeremiah's reminds me of how easy it was to transition from Seth into "Lazaris." In fact after Jane Robert's death there was a vacumm of sorts, which made an opening which wouldn't have been there if she hadn't died.]]

There was a vacuum after Janes death that many scambled to fill. I also think, frankly that its easier to be passive and suck in a tape than reading which requires a different kind of focus.

With Lazaris, its all made very easy to sit back and "absorb". Seth, because he wrote books and never did a "seminar" is a very different experience. More active in a personal way. Its not "guided"..LOL

I believe that some saw Jane's death as some kind of referendum on The Seth Material. I don't subscribe to this view.

Jane Roberts was a very courageous and intelligent woman. She wrote about how difficult it was for her to accept Seth and the phenomenon. When she started the Seth work she didn't even believe in life after death. She was an agnostic in many respects.

Her daily struggles with her arthritis are painstakingly documented in the Seth books by her husband. They do not shrink from writing the most intimate details of her physical decline. That took alot of guts in my opinion, considering the numbers of people that might decide Seth isn't so great because Jane got sick and died.

I started reading Seth when I was like.. 13 yrs old and by the time Jane died, I had proven to myself that what Seth talked about worked so I knew it was valid.

you wrote:

[[I actually had spiritual experiences that were more intense and "enlightening" when I was reading the Seth books than after becoming involved with C:S.]]

Me too, Me too..

Your jewelry is fantastic btw,

Cheers,

Love from another grandma,

Congratulations on the birth of your grandchild! Boy or girl? What's their name? Inquiring minds want to know

You wrote: [ I also think, frankly that its easier to be passive and suck in a tape than reading which requires a different kind of focus.]]

I think there is a certain amount of laziness involved. Claus mentioned that some "Friends of Lazaris" were proud of the fact that they were not familiar with Plato and other great philosophers. I admit to having put all my eggs in Lazaris' basket, as well.

Prior to discovering Lazaris, I did persue other avenues of wisdom. But I thought that Lazaris, being from the "Higher Realms", covered it all[lol]. If I had known that this "wisdom" was coming from just one more imperfect mortal, I would have looked elsewhere.

I thought that I had to "pick through" the writings of others for the gems, but everything that came from "Lazaris" was a gem. Now I'm picking through that too

The big difference is that most philosophers, while imperfect, at least don't have the ulterior motives that Jach has. They're not trying to manipulate people into buying more tapes and hero-worshiping Peny the Hutt!

My daughter, went hiking (that's right) after her contractions started. Then she was at home with a midwife, but after prolonged extreme back labor ended up at the hospital blissfully undergoing the epidural she had set out to avoid. Twenty-four hours that became hellish. then turned to exhilaration. Whew!

I've never experienced a birth (except for my two daughters) before. One of those major events that refreshes a true sense of the miraculous. A real gift.

Love,
Jade

I thought this too:

quote:

---

I wouldn't be surprised if CS moved to LA to court celbrities and found it much more difficult than they imagined. I believe this is what is the grinding motivation behind all of their anti-show rant.

---

There was the move to Beverly Hills, the Illuminarium on Rodeo Dr. There was a failed friendship with Shirley MacLaine (tearful betrayal as I recall) that Peny wrote about in a forward or preface to one of the books. I attended a big birthday bash for Peny and Jach at that house along with about 200 other "Lazarians." Anyone else there? Anyway I did have the impression that they anticipated a Hollywood connection that didn't happen.

Thanks for taking the time to post all those interesting Seth quotes. Glad you like my site.

Love,
Jade

You must be floating around in bliss after being at the birth of your grandson! Glowing, glowing...

I am curious about this:

>>There was a failed friendship with Shirley MacLaine (tearful betrayal as I recall) that Peny wrote about in a forward or preface to one of the books. <<

I noticed that they have Shirley Maclaine's name in the credits of all the video tapes that I have watched. "Special thanks to Shirley Maclaine." And actually that was my first whisper that "something's not right," back in my true believer days. I kept looking for Shirley in the video that I was watching. When I realized that she was not going to be there, I wondered what they were thanking her for. I started to have this nagging suspicion that the people associated with Lazaris—this pure, loving, sincere entity who dwelled in only the highest realms—were using the name of a celebrity known for her passion for metaphysics to give themselves credibility and validation.

Nah. Not pure white light Lazaris. I don't beieve that they would ever resort to a cheap trick like that.

Karolina

[This message has been edited by Karolina (edited 02-09-2001).]

Interesting to read your comments re: Shirley MacLaine as I am reading one of her books now "It's all in the Playing". I sought this book out as I remember reading Penys intro in the "Sacred Journey" a few years back about being betrayed by a good friend etc and I always wondered if it was her. I had read other books by Shirley before then and had also noticed her name on the credits of the C/S videos so I often tried to see if she was on them also Anyway since finding this site I've been delving around in my brain trying to put things together and decided to get this book from the library to see if there was anything in it! On page 61 is a conversation she has with Peny and Michaell where Peny becomes quite intense with her. I found the whole thing really interesting and reread Penys intro in Sacred Journey in a whole new light. I have Shirleys book in front of me but I am unsure what or if I am allowed to quote from it etc as I would put more in this post.

All the Best
Demelza

PS Dear Katie, Ted & All
Am reading along still but not posting much - I'm digesting everything but I'm not in a clear thinking space yet- still too many emotions and unanswered questions. When Demian & Jade came out I was thinking the same thing too! - but changed my mind at the last minute. Are you allowed to quote things from the Forum etc as I'm not sure what the laws are A Big Thank-you to everyone as I'm very interested in all the info (I check in about 2-3x a day) and really enjoy reading all the posts - it's been quite an eye-opener!

I have been away on a biz trip for a while, and wow have you guys been busy ).

Jeremiah said: I don't hold much hope for the world to sit up and take too much notice though. CS is a relatively minor wart amongst warts

Well yes, but I think if you folks start reporting C/S to cult watching organizations out there it will be kept an eye on.

Apart from the much mentioned Steven Hassan, www.freedomofmind.com, there are also aff, www.csj.org, and others.

Jeremiah said: when you consider the powerful Scientology cult which I think is the closest to CS in terms of attracting intelligent, sincere people with a combination of ancient truth and psychological manipulation.

Hmm well.. I think Scientology quite possibly takes the award as the most damaging cult out there.... I for one know that what I went through in my group dont hold a candle to what most people leaving scientology reports.

Jeremiah said: What makes CS unique is that it does not position itself as a text driven religion. There is no proclaimed scripture or church hierarchy. It looks to the world like some crack headed new age publishing company.

Now, that is an interesting statement. I mean... I dont know the group the way you do.. but from the description on these pages... well.. lets see there are Jach, Peny, and the gangsters.. sounds like a hierarchy to me... And tons of tapes etc to process.. sure sounds like scripture to me.... But, hey maybe I am wrong .

Take care
Malene

Jeremiah said: Damn, it is a head scratcher isn't it? After all the exposure and well documented stories of the worst kinds of assaults.

Actually, no I dont think it is that strange.. With all the stuff they got going for them, and with the extreme mind control tactics used.. as well as their legal experts, and celebrities working for them.. I think it is easy to understand.

As long as the public really dont want to know about and understand mind control, that is how long the cults will remain strong. Unfortunately. All we can do is to understand what happened.. and then let our voices be heard in the fight against mind control off many different kinds.

INMNSHO, hehe,

Malene

You wrote

{{I think there is a certain amount of laziness involved. Claus mentioned that some "Friends of Lazaris" were proud of the fact that they were not familiar with Plato and other great philosophers. I admit to having put all my eggs in Lazaris' basket, as well. ]]

It is amazing, I just wrote a post about how much compensating I have done with Lazaris.

Listening to the latest tape was a real eye opener. The quality and the organization of ideas is so poor and the use of flattery, calling us magicians every 10 seconds has really picked up over the past few years. Obviously the strategy is to provide alot of puffing of the ego and ease up on the research

Some of it, literally, doesn't make any sense.. if you can stay awake long enough [g]

you wrote:

[[Prior to discovering Lazaris, I did persue other avenues of wisdom. But I thought that Lazaris, being from the "Higher Realms", covered it all[lol]. If I had known that this "wisdom" was coming from just one more imperfect mortal, I would have looked elsewhere.]]

Yeah, really a big lesson there. I tend to believe the single most damaging thing my involvement with this bullshit has been shutting off other sources of information.

Cheers,

you wrote:

[[There was the move to Beverly Hills, the Illuminarium on Rodeo Dr. There was a failed friendship with Shirley MacLaine (tearful betrayal as I recall) that Peny wrote about in a forward or preface to one of the books.]]

Yeah, my guess is they had their heads so far up Shirleys ass that nothing but the sharp public slapdown she provided them could dislodge them and put them back in their place.

The passage that Shirley Maclaine wrote about describing our Peny's attempts to discredit another medium is truly hysterical and vintage Peny.

Subsequent editions of her book edited out that passage, due, no doubt, to the hysterics that our" sparkiest spark of love "inflicted on her.

They were probably confident they could build a scientology like base of celebrity power out there.

Peny was probably the reason it didn't pan out. She has to be the biggest star in any room she is in as do many of those people.

CLASH.

Cheers,

Jeremiah

[[I noticed that they have Shirley Maclaine's name in the credits of all the video tapes that I have watched. "Special thanks to Shirley Maclaine." And actually that was my first whisper that "something's not right," back in my true believer days. I kept looking for Shirley in the video that I was watching. When I realized that she was not going to be there, I wondered what they were thanking her for. I started to have this nagging suspicion that the people associated with Lazaris—this pure, loving, sincere entity who dwelled in only the highest realms—were using the name of a celebrity known for her passion for metaphysics to give themselves credibility and validation. ]]

I think your right. They pasted Shirley Maclaines name on the video because it looks like she endorses Lazaris.

Around the time those vidoes were done, they recruited the help of a woman named Anne Marie Benstrom who was involved with Ramtha and was a close advisor to JZ Knight.

I thnk that Benstrom advised them on how to present themselves for a broader market as Knight had so successfuly done. That is speculation, all I know for sure is that she was around for a while.

Benstrom has sinced distanced herself from Knight and has nothing to do with Lazaris, I always wondered what happened.

Shirley Maclaine probably got involved with Jach as a result of her friendship with Colin Higgins, a fine filmaker, now dead who was also a close friend of Penys and "Lazaris"

Colin directed those videos for them and I think that due to the close relationhip he had Maclaine let him put her name on it.

A reliable source told me that Peny was very jealous and spoke about Maclaine quite contemptuosly. Peny, my source told me liked to pretend that MacLaine was a pest. LOL.. as reliable as this source is, its only speculation.

I dont know how much Maclaine has to do with them now, as of a year ago I believe she was still in contact with Jach.

Cheers,

Jeremiah

[This message has been edited by Jeremiah (edited 02-09-2001).]

I think some other posters know more than I do about Peny and Shirely MacLaine. I remember hearing that some celebrities were given special private access to "Lazaris." That didn't seem a very "spiritual" approach to me.
Opportunistic is more like it.

Love,
Jade

I would like to hear the quotes from the Shirley MacLaine book. Katie and I looked for them in our books, but we don't have It's All in the Playing.

The Fair Use clause of the copyright law allows for quoting small snippets of copyrighted material for purposes of commentary, education and parody. The clause is not real specific, but the primary considerations are the amount of the material which is quoted (in this case, a very small amount), whether it is done for commercial purposes (no, in this case) and whether the material quoted represents the heart of the original material, i.e. does the quote give away the entire context such that one need not buy the original material to get the essense of it. It mostly has to do with competing against the original author, causing them financial loss.

So, I think quoting a few paragraphs of MacLaine's book or Lazaris material is safe by all these criteria.

I would not quote from the Forum publicly. It may be a legal infringement, and I think it's a personal infringement. The Forum is quasi-private, so the rules are different. We can discuss the general dynamics of the Forum, but we should restrain from mentioning names of those who are not public figures. Specific incidents in the Forum may be spoken of in narrative, but not in direct quotes.

The main thing to consider about copyright is that it is meant to protect intellectual property. So the question to ask is whether a quote would diminish the author's ability to benefit from their work, because the quote represents theft of that work. A (bad) review of a book may cause people to not buy the book, but it is not copyright infringement.

The other thing to consider is the privacy of non-public figures. Oh yes, and it's important to make sure that what is posted is factual. If it is hearsay, then it should be presented as such.

Hope this clears things up

Just to be clear on this— Jach, Peny and "Lazaris," as, of course, Shirley MacLaine, are all public figures, right? What about Peny's spouse?

Thanks for your brilliant post, I agree with you 100%, you've really nailed it. LOLOLOL.

Sorry, I couldn't help add my little Forum parody.

I wanted to mention also that we should be very careful in nameing names other than those of public people.

Jach and Peny have made public claims about themselves via the books, tapes, etc. The claims they make about themselves are fair game. Besides, can you imagine Jach on the witness stand trying to prove that it wasn't him who said such and such, that it was Lazaris? Talk about a field day for the National Enquirer!

"Chubby ex-insurance agent claims to channel multi-dimensional being who has named 400 lb shared wife as worlds most enlightened being"

That would be one for the books!

On the other hand, the Forum is private and it's contents are also copywrited. I think we're better off not naming names.

We can tell of our personal experiences in the Forum, or of conversations we have had with others about it. There is no law against recounting an experience or stating an opinion or theory.

Maybe it's best if we find other ways of describing Forum posters than by their names.
I'm sure you can all come up with some descriptive phrases which will allow us to know what is being discussed.

E.g, "I logged into the Forum one morning to find that my innocent post about the color of Hillary Clinton's shoes had erupted into a 26 thread assassination of me, led by Crush Dimbulb. His posts were eagerly praised and echoed by Petunia Piglet, Mindless Misty, Diabolical Heartcard, Harry Glum, and Special K Simple."

See what I mean?

Anyway, I think you get the point.

Katie