I've been wanting to tell you all about the one critic we have had so far.

A few weeks ago we got an email from a Forum Member and True Believer in which she tried to let me and Ted know how terrible we are for putting up this site.

Her evaluation of our site can be summed up in this paragraph:

"I did not read every word in every thread on your site but I read enough to feel massive jealousy, envy (except regarding Peny's personal appearance) and rage flowing out of your posts. The mocking thread devoted to the election fiasco was the last straw. Even if there is some truth to what you are putting out, I would have a hard time finding it amid all the venom and I will not visit your site again."

Ted and I both spent a lot of time writing to her, addressing her points, and asking her questions. She never responded to anything we wrote to her, but just continued to insult us and our site.

In response to a particularly detailed mail, in which we asked her to please be good enough answer our questions as we were feeling that her mails were very one way, that we were just being put down and lectured, she wrote back that she had no further interest in communicating to us. I felt very dismissed and dehumanized by the interaction, but I knew the risks when I engaged. I know that Ted and I were character assassinated in the Forum, and that would allow for some to disregard our humanity, and make some feel that they can take license with us. That is the function of character assassination, to dehumanize.
So, I know to some, we are nothing but the monster bullies we were portrayed to be in the Forum.

I had felt some concern for her, because she did speak of having been slammed in the Forum herself, and I thought that maybe she was in that "angry doubting" stage that some of us have experienced. It was ok with me if she was, and I was willing to work that through with her. I was not willing to be abused and insulted in the process.

So, I don't know what happened to that person, but I know there was a lot of anger there. I do have reason to suspect that she has not actually dismissed this message board.

I'm writing about this today because I have the feeling that the recent revelations and deep emotions that are being expressed here might cause some strong and angry actions from other "true believers" and I think we should be prepared for some hostility.

Those of us who have found value in this site, or made a commitment to it will have to learn to deal with anger and hostility without allowing our board to turn into another Forum.

People might come here to bait us, thinking that they are somehow defending Lazaris, as if Lazaris would need any defense if they are who they are claimed to be.

They might feel a sense of loyalty to the Gangsters, and come here out of some thought that they could somehow vindicate them by trying to cause unrest here.

We all have to be vigilant about this.

I know that my emotions have been running high over the past few days, I've had some "flashbacks" to the Forum days, moments where I was right back in the confusion, hurt, anger, and intense emotion of Forum Storm. A lot of tears have been shed in this house recently.

That is ok, it's good to remember, and good to release. That is one purpose I hope this board will serve. I feel safe and secure within the passion and love that abounds here. Maybe not everyone will, however, so perhaps we can be conscious and vigilant.

I am so grateful for the healing energy I experience here with every post. Let's keep that going and build on it, and let's try to keep it in mind that there are many visitors here every day who do not post. They too in a way are a part of our little community here, and like all communities, not everyone is in agreement. We may even have a terrorist or two in our midst. They only have the power we give them.

Lots of love,

Katie

[["I did not read every word in every thread on your site but I read enough to feel massive jealousy, envy (except regarding Peny's personal appearance) and rage flowing out of your posts. The mocking thread devoted to the election fiasco was the last straw. Even if there is some truth to what you are putting out, I would have a hard time finding it amid all the venom and I will not visit your site again."]]

I wonder if this person thought about whether or not the "rage" might be justified.

Probably not, then that would open a whole can of worms.

I was just writing to Raphael and mentioned that the things being discussed here, Tradevest, Penys brutal behaviour, the brutality of other CS employees, Greed, LIES are all things on the record.

Can anyone refute, disprove or deny those things?

Please do, if you can.

You cannot rationalize and justify those things, they happened. The toothpaste does NOT go back in the tube [g]

This person was clearly angry, but at what?

It sounds as if, being cultified, she is not permitted to be angry at her own abuse and so she attacks those who are refusing to accept it.

[[I had felt some concern for her, because she did speak of having been slammed in the Forum herself, and I thought that maybe she was in that "angry doubting" stage that some of us have experienced. It was ok with me if she was, and I was willing to work that through with her. I was not willing to be abused and insulted in the process.]]

I think your concern is well founded. I noticed in the forum the phenomenon of the most severely abused becoming the most ardent abusers in subsequent discussions.

Not all but two or three notable examples come to mind of people who were beaten down and learned, from their abuse, the rules of the game and the tools of the trade.

Not that these people were ever respected by the honchos who decide thumbs up or down on someone. They were merely used as props, stroked only enough to keep them good soldiers.

One, in particular comes to mind. In this person I think the created a Frankenstien as she would often mimic the gangs most extreme abusive behaviors .

She was not as good, as practiced as the upper eschlon of the Gang, she was sloppy and often slipped. Often had to be called on the carpet by them even after her conversion.

Her conversion which was eerie and sycophantic was ultimately a failure because it never won her the approval she wanted.

Thanks for your post,

To quote from the person who wrote you and Ted in anger over this site:

[["I did not read every word in every thread on your site but I read enough to feel massive jealousy, envy (except regarding Peny's personal appearance) and rage flowing out of your posts]]

I have been thinking more about the accusation of jealousy and envy on this writers part.

Jelous and envious of exactly what? The only thing that could plausibly inspire jealousy and envy is their vast material wealth.

Although, what good is that material wealth when you are basically a recluse and a confirmed non-travleler. Both of which I understand Peny to be.

Jealous of fun filled jam packed days of adventure? Reliable sources tell me they spend their time daytrading on the internet and gorging on right wing politcal propaganda, which is then spewed in toto on the forum under the heading of "research".

There is a fair amount of time devoted to Ebay shopping [or there was at least until all those evil crystals started popping up there]

The remainder of the day and night are devoted to meals, the current outrage of the day and discussions over whose mad at whom and why.

Much time goes into processing the crisis je jour and the group gang up on whoever happens to be pissing Peny off that day.

Mapmakers.

This is based on the reliable account of a former mutual friend.

Sounds like fun huh?

Put the wealth aside for a moment. What else is there to be jealous of? Her relationship with Lazaris?

I know this is something that inspires a considerable amount of jealousy on the part of many Lazaris followers.

But once you get outside the Lazaris "set" [g] and consider the disasterous results of this daily counsel on Peny, Jach and Michael North, you would be hard pressed to wish this for yourself.

Peny is a raging infantile greedy hurtful woman . Peny talks to Lazaris every day. You do the math

Lazaris came with the express purpose of talking to Peny [ Why is anyones guess, maybe higher up spiritual types like a challenge].

Did Lazaris come to talk to Peny to help her grow into this????

What is the impact of Lazaris relationship on Peny?

She must have had moments of kindness over the years, certainly when she is courting someone she can be materially very generous but how self serving is that?

The documented facts remain that she has [along with Jach Pursel and Michaell North] used Lazaris to lure followers into at least one bullshit get rich quick scam which left her profiting and the trustful followers empty handed.

The carnage of her abuse is documented in the archives of the Jach and Lazaris forum.

Look quickly for those archives however, for they may decide to get rid of the archives altogether. They eliminated the abuse done too Ted and Katie from the record.

As an aside, to anyone from the forum reading this take an archival look at the latest major bloodbath involving the woman that dared to express her feelings about Jachs revised workshop schedule.

Look quickly though, they are probably cutting that one out as well. I spent the last day I was a member of the forum reading it, all TEN threads. Search under "major changes in the workshop schedule" If its still there read it and see what you really think. If its now gone, why?

I am asking this of any friend of Peny's reading this to please offer evidence that she is not the person portrayed in these pages.

My theory [go ahead, prove me wrong on this] is that the oft vaunted "loyalty" to Peny that her immediates profess is really just fear. Fear of Peny and her well establised volatility.

I think the outrage on this readers behalf is really masking a fear of Peny and the loss of Lazaris that is linked with Penys anger in most peoples minds.

What inspires this loyalty? What is the basis of this loyalty? Her shitty behavior towards nearly everyone? No. Loyalty can be inspired by fear, often is. Sometimes people defend a person because they are afraid not to, not because of any deeply felt connection.

It is strange to see people get all outraged and defensive on Peny's behalf without addressing the basis of the criticism.

I have reason to believe certain people would love to discredit this site. Why don't they just do it by refuting what is written here, point by point. Dispute the charges, that would be the qucikest and surest silencer.

Apparantly they cannot.

Lazaris talked about the intimate relationship that is formed between the abused and the abuser.

I think in Peny and her clan we see the object lesson of that.

Cheers,

I too am sure that many people will come here to bait people, be the knight in shining armour for C/S.

Katie said:[[I had felt some concern for her, because she did speak of having been slammed in the Forum herself, and I thought that maybe she was in that "angry doubting" stage that some of us have experienced. It was ok with me if she was, and I was willing to work that through with her. I was not willing to be abused and insulted in the process.]]

I think you were correct in your assumption.
We all know how we felt when we were only in the doubting stage or the I, myself must have done something wrong stage. Many of us would have stood up and fought for these people.

[["I did not read every word in every thread on your site but I read enough to feel massive jealousy, envy (except regarding Peny's personal appearance) and rage flowing out of your posts. The mocking thread devoted to the election fiasco was the last straw. Even if there is some truth to what you are putting out, I would have a hard time finding it amid all the venom and I will not visit your site again."]]

The even if there were some truth to what you are putting out statement is what caught my eye. Obviously since she was slammed in the forum herself she understands the brutality that these people take part in.
There was obviously more venom in the C/S forum than could have ever been found here.

I am sorry Katie that you had to relive some of this pain. Keep remebering that you ARE helping people by having this forum. Maybe this person will come back again and see this is not about jealosy and envy it is about the pain we have suffered by the hands of these people and "their gang". Of course there is rage, not only are most of the people angry at "the gang" at C/S they are angry at themselves for not listening to THEIR inner voice when things just didn't seem right.

Oh, yes...[[ As an aside, to anyone from the forum reading this take an archival look at the latest major bloodbath involving the woman that dared to express her feelings about Jachs revised workshop schedule.

Look quickly though, they are probably cutting that one out as well. I spent the last day I was a member of the forum reading it, all TEN threads. Search under "major changes in the workshop schedule" If its still there read it and see what you really think. If its now gone, why? ]]

I do remember that thread. It was a real eye opener for me. Apparently this woman had committed the awful crime of letting Jach know the impact of his decision to quit traveling. From what I understand this decision didn't simply entail no longer scheduling future trips outside of Florida but cancelling the seminars already scheduled. Wasn't it by just a few months or something?

I can't remember now. But I do know people can spend a year ahead of time making arrangements, flight, hotel reservations, involving deposits or nonrefundable payments, putting in time off requests at work etc. Sudden changes like this can be devestating for many who are not independently wealthy.

However, the gangsters made it very, very clear that none of that mattered and no one had a right to express their displeasure or any negative impact at all. Jach didn't make the announcment to hear anyone else's thoughts. It was just to inform others what was going on and except for congratulatory ones, NO OTHER responses were welcomed, acceptable or tolerated.

I remember reading this woman's initial post...and even though it wasn't as clear as it could have been, it was still an honest expression of what she was feeling at the time.

Instead of addressing the opinion that she might have been trying to influence or make Jach feel guilty in a less than direct way in addition to the other valid points and concerns she had - (and he should take some kind of responsibility for his impact, for goodness sake!) - they totally, totally fried her...and as you said for TEN threads! Even when she acknowledged that there were different levels of emotions and agendas in her post, it was not enough.

I can't tell you how many times that poor woman went back to process, came back with an apology only to be fried again. She was also then accused of other stuff supposedly happening at the Millinium Intensive that had nothing to do with this topic, and I think that gave life to another thread subject where she was under fire there as well.

Peny even threatened her and said if she had heard this woman make this alleged comment she would have slapped her in the face herself! How's that for an enlightened response?

When another poster gave an eyewitness account of what had happened clearing this woman, Peny thanked the witness poster for her account, but never offered the accused woman an apology for the hateful post or false accusation. She just continued to roast and allow others to roast this woman on the other threads concerning Jach's decision to quit traveling. Which also included someone who personally knew her airing his "dirty laundry" about her in the threads, even though the woman under fire said this was not an appropriate place to discuss their personal relationship.

Their unrelenting response to this unfortunate woman was absolute outrage at her imputence and their number one accusation was "narcissim" and then "negative ego". This coming from the most entitled narcistic people around! And all that gave them license to disect, judge and condemn her in front of everyone.

Punishment. That's all I can think of when I think of those threads. Pure, raw, unmitigated hateful punishment and entitlement. And a couple other people got fried in those threads as well (those foolish enough to say a word on this woman's behalf...but when they quickly stepped back in line the heat was off of them and back on her).

These are also the threads where a staff member was skewered big time in the most humiliating way possible.

Through that portion of the thread I learned how poor Peny, Jach and Michaell had been treated so horribly by this staff member for like twenty years, and how Peny just couldn't take it any more and had to say something, because now this staff member was stepping out of line again, posting inappropriately and without Peny's and another staff member's approval first - which is how this staff member was supposed to post in the thread. She was required to run everything by them before she posted because they needed to do to circumvent her negative ego. (?????)

I was appalled. No one asked Peny how she could have allowed herself to be martyred like this for so long! Or whether she and another Forum manager should play parent to this staffer. (They were criticizing her for doing just that to this woman they were currently frying).

The response from subsequent posters was revolting. They expressed how it broke their hearts Peny had suffered so and thanked her for her beauty and generosity and truthfulness...and this "hard love" she and her right hand Forum manager were giving this staffer.

Oh,god!

These threads reveal the true nature of the gang's personalities, including Jach's. He remained silent through the threads until someone asked why a person expressing unhappiness at his decision to quit traveling would generate such a response. Then he stepped in to justify the roasting on his behalf.

I had the sense of a sadistic person drooling over the carnage occuring in his Forum and feasting off of the devestation, defending it's occurence least anyone slow down in their attacks. Just keep it coming, honey!

No apology offered by this woman was accepted or enough. Any show of self respect or esteeming herself enough to stand by what she believed elicited more rage, venomous hateful rage, while feeling remorse for her "negative" impact on the Forum and poor Jach was just met with more contempt and rejection.

Everyone - absolutely everyone was to thank Jach for his sacrifice of traveling all these years, period. No other thought, feeling or sentiment was allowed. Of course, Jach didn't owe anyone this traveling, but wasn't he also paid for what he did? Didn't he make some money, bring in some abundance through these travels? How about being thankful for the opportunity to work and secure the lifestyle he was now enjoying?

Of course it would take courage to do something like this, if Lazaris were real, but wasn't this also the work he chose to do? Was he martyring himself for me and the rest of peon humanity all this time?

Perhaps most revealing was Peny's toddler-like stomping of her foot, hands on hips and pouting of lips when she wrote, "Lazaris didn't come to speak to you." in response to this woman's expressing feeling fear of loss at seminars being discontinued outside of Florida.

And every post thereafter was filled with "Thank you Peny for your generosity. You didn't have to share but through the beauty of your heart, you did" sentiments.

Lazaris didn't come to speak to anyone but Peny, folks and you better believe she knows that and will remind you of it, and you OWE her. Forget everything Lazaris said about being here for you or your Higher Self asking him to find you or any other bull crap "they" said in those seminars you've attended.

And even the stuff you've read like in the beginning of the Lazaris books, where "Lazaris" writes that the reason he's here is because we, as a humanity, asked him to. And another personal reason, in this myth about Lazaris, is while scanning humanity, out of billions of consciousnesses the shining, sparkling light that Peny is attacted "their" attention.

Another reason.

Yes, while according to the myth, Lazaris is supposed to have said if she was all "they" spoke to that would have been enough, but I also remember hearing "them" say that they knew Peny would want to share "them" with others. So it's not like "they" were ever afraid their first reason for being here would be denied.

So according to the story, humanity is the first reason, our invitation, and not Peny, herself, that Lazaris supposedly first came to respond to. Even though the myth contains within itself the value and gift that humanity gave Peny for her opportunity to have this special relationship with this magnificent being, Lazaris is hers, hers, hers, and we better be grateful that she "let" us know him and not express any ownership of how we created the reality to allow our own personal relationship with him. Not mutual generosity or gratitude here. Just blatant narcisstic entitlment from Peny and groveling gratitude from the rest of us.

Amazing.

If the threads are still there, I wholely concur with you, Jeremiah. They should be read. It's a lesson in itself. Needless to say, since I came foward with my identity on this board I am no longer a member of the Forum so I don't know if they're still there or not or whether they are still in their original form.

Self-serving censorship by management is the rule in that Forum.

But they can't manipulate everything everywhere. And we have our voices.

Love,
Demian DreamSinger

aka Seeker

Re editing this post: I still have trouble with those codes!

I wrote

[[ an aside, to anyone from the forum reading this take an archival look at the latest major bloodbath involving the woman that dared to express her feelings about Jachs revised workshop schedule.

you wrote

"{I do remember that thread. It was a real eye opener for me. Apparently this woman had committed the awful crime of letting Jach know the impact of his decision to quit traveling. From what I understand this decision didn't simply entail no longer scheduling future trips outside of Florida but cancelling the seminars already scheduled. Wasn't it by just a few months or something? ]]"

A few months yes, roughly..but hey Demian time is an illusion.. well wait a minute..umm.. time is an illusion unless you are trying to guilt trip people with how much time you have "given" them.. ala Jach
" giftgiver" Pursel.

Birthdays must be very strange in the PurselNorthNorth compound. Imagine a world where gifts are given and the recipient PAYS the giver.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm...I wonder if Jach gives Peny a 2 inch crystal for her birthday he expects her to give him $30,000,000,00 or however much CS charges for such a thing. Maybe she gets a "special spark" discount..but I digress...

What was so absurd about this whole thread was that they chewed this woman a new asshole for laying a "guilt trip" on Jach and then proceeded to heave the biggest guilt trip of the modern age all over her..LOL...it was ridiculous.

you wrote:

[[I can't remember now. But I do know people can spend a year ahead of time making arrangements, flight, hotel reservations, involving deposits or nonrefundable payments, putting in time off requests at work etc. Sudden changes like this can be devestating for many who are not independently wealthy.]]

Yes, people do those things. Of course CS has nothing but contempt for those people. Conmen, Conwomen and in this case Con"sparks" very quickly grow contemptuous of those they are able to trick into trusting them.

Really Demian, you just don't get it do you? [VBG] They were instructed by the gangsters to "work their magic" to create the "abundance" to be able to go to the Borlando workshops.

you wrote:

[[Jach didn't make the announcment to hear anyone else's thoughts.]]
It was just to inform others what was going on and except for congratulatory ones, NO OTHER responses were welcomed, acceptable or tolerated. ]]

Shit they acted like someone was dumping all over santa clause for crissake. The gangsters positioned Jach absurdly in their argument talking about how generous he had been with his time.. and precious energy.. I was literally laughing out loud reading some of those posts.

How do they think Jach became a multimillionare? doing fucking mists of manifestation techniques? No, he made a small mint hauling ass on a plane several times a year..just like many other lowly slobs out there....

You wrote:

[[I remember reading this woman's initial post...and even though it wasn't as clear as it could have been, it was still an honest expression of what she was feeling at the time.]]

I remember her post clearly and there was nothing, NOTHING in it that warranted the hysterical, childish, vindictive rampage that followed. Each creep that sharpened their teeth on her inspired the next creep to do better..it was the nastiest kind of gangup.

YOu wrote:

[[I can't tell you how many times that poor woman went back to process, came back with an apology only to be fried again.]]

Again, I think her sincerity inpired nothing but more contempt in them.

You wrote:
[[ She was also then accused of other stuff supposedly happening at the Millinium Intensive that had nothing to do with this topic, and I think that gave life to another thread subject where she was under fire there as well.

Peny even threatened her and said if she had heard this woman make this alleged comment she would have slapped her in the face herself! How's that for an enlightened response? ]]]

Pathetic is what it is. I am sure that Peny must be pretty pissed off to lower herself to physical violence when she is a master level soul damager. Kind of like a demotion isn't it?

[[When another poster gave an eyewitness account of what had happened clearing this woman, Peny thanked the witness poster for her account, but never offered the accused woman an apology for the hateful post or false accusation.]]

I wonder if people who read that thread still believe Peny's baseless and loud accusations to be the truth. Easy to miss a few sentances of retraction, especially when the greatorboflove kept right on torturing this woman.

you wrote

[[Their unrelenting response to this unfortunate woman was absolute outrage at her imputence and their number one accusation was "narcissim" and then "negative ego". This coming from the most entitled narcistic people around! ]]

yes, I agree, well said.

You wrote:

[[These are also the threads where a staff member was skewered big time in the most humiliating way possible.

Through that portion of the thread I learned how poor Peny, Jach and Michaell had been treated so horribly by this staff member for like twenty years, and how Peny just couldn't take it any more and had to say something, because now this staff member was stepping out of line again, posting inappropriately and without Peny's and another staff member's approval first - which is how this staff member was supposed to post in the thread. She was required to run everything by them before she posted because they needed to do to circumvent her negative ego. (?????)]]

Yeah, that was weird.. you could almost hear David Koresh's guitar strumming in the background while the wrote those posts..

[[I was appalled. No one asked Peny how she could have allowed herself to be martyred like this for so long! Or whether she and another Forum manager should play parent to this staffer. (They were criticizing her for doing just that to this woman they were currently frying). ]]

Well, my guess is the people around Peny must secretly be so stuck on trying to figure out why any non physical entity would be so blind to her nasty nature that relatively minor things like being a martyr just get overlooked. It must be gross to have to nobilize that toxicity on a daily basis... yikes.

[[The response from subsequent posters was revolting. They expressed how it broke their hearts Peny had suffered so and thanked her for her beauty and generosity and truthfulness...and this "hard love" she and her right hand Forum manager were giving this staffer.]]

Revolting yes. This is total cult adoration. I think a fair number of people would do almost anything Peny asked them to do. I think a smaller but significant percentage would do ANYTHING she asked.

you wrote

[[I had the sense of a sadistic person drooling over the carnage occuring in his Forum and feasting off of the devestation, defending it's occurence least anyone slow down in their attacks. Just keep it coming, honey!]]

Oh yeah, the LOVED it.. One of the reasons I think they love this chewing on people is that it affords them an escape from the tension and anger and fear they MUST be experiencing but are not allowed to express.
As long as they have a victim they don't turn on each other.

You wrote:

Everyone - absolutely everyone was to thank Jach for his sacrifice of traveling all these years, period. No other thought, feeling or sentiment was allowed. Of course, Jach didn't owe anyone this traveling, but wasn't he also paid for what he did? Didn't he make some money, bring in some abundance through these travels? How about being thankful for the opportunity to work and secure the lifestyle he was now enjoying?]]

Well hell yes..[g] you are quite right..its called a fucking job LOL..

...and according to Lazaris giving is a much more exalted and rewarding action than taking...so he should technically be thanking the workshop participants for giving him the chance to give.

[[Perhaps most revealing was Peny's toddler-like stomping of her foot, hands on hips and pouting of lips when she wrote, "Lazaris didn't come to speak to you." in response to this woman's expressing feeling fear of loss at seminars being discontinued outside of Florida. ]]

Wasn't that a creepy moment. God..it gave me chills. My current theory [and this is only my opinion] is that if Lazaris is real he singled Peny out from all of humanity because he liked a good strong challenge. I imagine him saying, "now let me find the nastiest woman on earth and teach her to love.." sort of a challenge..

Have to run..but I loved your whole post.

Jeremiah