This is the thread to expose your personal experiences with Lazaris/Jach Purcel/Michaele+Peny Prestini's (now "North" -- since JUST AFTER -- Tradevest imploded --) MLM: Tradevest.

Experience, express, feel -- put on that Mike Wallace 60 Minutes forever-young Old Man public *New Age Consumer-defending* braodcast image and fight back with honest, responsible truth here.

Steve

I put my Neverending Shame tapes back up for sale on ebay yesterday, I always invite people to this site through them, but this time I made a special invitation to Tradevest investors. Maybe some will respond.

Now, what is Quo Vadis? Didn't someone mention yet another business opportunity connected to Lazaris?

What has been going on?

Lots of love,

Quo Vadis was not started by anyone at Concept Synergy, it was just going around the seminar participants. A Multi Level thing, not selling anything, but doing some kind of money grid. I forget the details but you were supposed to get rich. yeah right. Anyway it was not started by C/C but by the "students" who all believed they could make it magically happen.
I will asked my friend the details when I talked to her as she participated. But this one did not involve corporate C/S

Does anyone remember the girl who was a jeweler who made some abundance symbols to sell? Boy did she catch hell selling them to people at a workshop.

1) When Tradevest fell apart due to what was said by Concept:Synergy to have been a massive pilfering of funds by a member of Tradevest's board of directors; I wrote Peny Prestini (now: "North") a letter expressing my outrage at: her, Jach Purcel, and Michael Prestini for having brought myself -- and so many other spiritually vulnerable people -- into such a totally disasterous business opportunity.

A rather... short time later, I received a *10pm* phone call, at my home from Jach Purcel. He explained to me, in absolute and no-uncertain-terms that it was: "(I who was angry at myself for having consciously created the whole of Tradevest failing in my personal reality)". He then proceeded to demand a direct and personal apology.

Being a rather -- very -- nieve 24 year-old "friend of Lazaris", I allowed myself to be totally bowled over by Jach's angry, demanding -- and indeed: rather socially unusual... late night phone call.

Not only did I appologize and, for the momment completely swollow his claim of deep, psychic awareness of my private mental reality -- the very next day I ACTUALLY sent he, Peny, and Michael FLOWERS 8=(P) for the "awful trouble" I had brought them with my letter expressing outrage about Tradevest taking my -- and everyone else's -- #^%@ money!

Can you say: socially spineless, cver-vulnerable, 24 year-old PUTZ?

I still get so damned angry every time I have reason to recall the whole filthy, humiliating story.

The concept was this: buy all the consumer products, travel, and automotive leases you normally purchase, but buy them through the Tradevest Products Catalog national wherehouse (like the old Best Products company or Consumers Distributing -- but without the 'brick and morter' local stores) and a small percentage of your purchase will go toward an anuity that you can cash in -- in 20 years. This "amount" was alleged to come from a portion of the "great savings" realized by not having brick and morter stores. Sound "Dot Bomb" familiar?

IMO -- it was an unspoken: manipulative yuppie public image competitive consumerist shark feed. And yes, IMO Peny was the classic tacky "dress for success" Animal Farm "four legs". The thought of it now just sickens me.

When it all fell appart, we who invested hundreds of dollars to become Lazaris "metaphysically trained Tradevest associates" were told that a "Tradevest company board member" had abscanded with "all the money" and all bets -- including existing annuities and all -- were off!

This after Jach and Peny had paraded infront of we -- many Lazaris Tradevest Success Seminar "trainees", week-after-week: how much money they were making -- hand over fist -- and all the great, new extra luxury items they could now afford__ and were buying through (you guessed it --) Tradevest.

I thank God I only lost $185 dollars (plus God knows how much spent on Lazaris Tradevest Success "Seminars" --) and gave up when none of my "conventionally" successful peers -- and more wise Marin elders... would let me 'Amway cult' assault them.

My friend Vince, who works for the Fed told me after an early Tradevest "guest event" that the whole thing was misguided and financially dangerous. I should have listened!

As far as I know: Peny, Michael, and Jach have never seen fit to refund a cent of money lost to Tradevest by we "Lazaris Tradevest Seminar" *paying* trainees. Instead, Peny went silent, changed her name from Peny Prestini to Peny North (Michael Prestini changed his to Michael North). They then moved Concept:Synergy completely out of the San Francisco Bay Area to Beverly Hills and, eventually: to Florida -- Tradevest's original "corporate home".

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Katie, the Compuserve Lazaris chat room was set on fire several times with former Tradevest "trainees" raising the subject and being absolutely cult gang beaten -- and socially raped.

At that time there was one particular far right wing, "expert" blowhard male member in the Compuserve chat room who seemed to be a real 'fire stoke' for Peny's radical / overnight far-right wing political "flip": from publicly-avowed: "very liberal" (this likely precipitating from her IMO abominable and financially conscienceless behavior with -- and following Tradevest).

Look at any cruel rich (hey -- who in their right capitalist mind doesn't admire inspirational wealthy folks, but -- !) far right wing blowhard and you'll likely find a trail of human and financial wreckage left behind, that they're attempting to blot-out with tremendous "enemies list"-think and crude social bluster.

Steve

It is not important to me where the Lazaris Material came from. Lazaris has said that he studies other teachers, that is the pervue of any spiritual teacher.. Jesus studied with other teachers for God's sake.

It is important to me whether Jach is being dishonest about actually channeling an entity, however. At this point, from what I experience as "Lazaris" in my night dreams, and just the general deeply inter-connected "roll" and high "q" humor in the material as presented by "Lazaris"; my opinion is that Lazaris is a non-local entity with some highly -- highly destructive "information authority" abuse issues.

What I mean by this is that he constantly makes mistakes in the certitude with which he presents certain "facts of physical reality" -- diet, health information for example -- and NEVER, NEVER -- gives up a: "We're sorry, we were wrong about our preliminary assesment of that -- this is now, more accurately how (smoking impact, high red meat eating, or body fat loss, for example --) appear to us."

I for one could, and probably would forgive these "Lazaris" people and Lazaris "themselves"(?) -- if they would just express real remorse for -- and act to clean up -- the very real damage they have done for so many years to the trusting people we each know and love.

Steve

Did anyone bring any legal action against Jach and Peny around the Tradvest thing for fraud? Were there ever any legal grounds to hold them accountable around this?

What I am most curious about is whether or not anyone can say if they made money off the deal, sounds like they did.

Cheers,

When I wrote asking if anyone made money off of Tradevest I realize I wasn't clear about what I was asking.

So:

Does anyone know if North Pursel North made money from the deal? Obviously several people lost money but don't the ones at the top of an MLM usually make out like bandits?

Welcome to our message board! It's nice to see a new poster. How did you find us?

I hope you didn't lose money in the Tradevest deal.

Those of us who weren't involved in that are very interested in any details of that group, especially in what way Lazaris was involved.

Do you have any recollections you could share with us?

I'm off to catch up with your other posts.
It's really nice to have you here.

[Did anyone bring any legal action against Jach and Peny around the Tradvest thing for fraud? Were there ever any legal grounds to hold them accountable around this?

What I am most curious about is whether or not anyone can say if they made money off the deal, sounds like they did.]

Yes. I can tell you with *absolute certainty* that: Jach, Peny, and Michael made SIGNIFICANT money by CON-vincing we Lazaris lemmings to sign-on as Tradevest, Inc. Associates.

How much? I do not know a figure.

It was enough -- however, for Jach to stand-up infront of we 'Tradevest Lazaris special metaphysical success evening/weekend workshop' trainees, before going into trance -- and say words to the effect: "(Due to the money we are _now_ making -- as larger and larger checks arrive in our mailbox from Tradevest Corporate headquarters; we can presently afford to 'upgrade' what we own -- to 'X, Y, and Z' durable luxury consumer goods)". These purchased through Tradevest, Inc. -- of course.

Legal action taken against these Orwellian Blue Ribbon Prize-Winning 'four legs' moves -- for Tradevest -- yet?

To my knowledge, no.

Hey. I'm down: a total of $185 Tradevest Associate Starter Kit cost AND several admitedly 'multiple-purpose' Lazaris Tradevest metaphysical success weekend / evening workshop fees.

My personal legal thermonuclear button was not pushed hard enough by a company that continued to by my prime source of richly valuable, and: *deeply flawed* personal growth material for nearly a decade AFTER Tradevest's toxic colapse.

What about the poor s.o.b's who lost multiple Tradevest 20 Year Annuitiues -- and far larger personal scratch than my sucker $185?!

Did they take action -- legal, or otherwise -- against Jach, Peny, and Michael -- or Tradevest, Inc. itself?

I don't know bro.

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What I do know is that Peny said she wanted Tradevest to be a way for people to "catch up" with her financially and material success-wise.

Damn it. I believe her.

And I believe we we were all porked up the coal mine by a socially toxic corporation once known as Tradevest.

Some of us just came out of the train wreck financially A WHOLE LOT better off than others, for the experience.

And some of us left Marin, and changed our names.

One of us is an Enneagram 6, that at that precise point in time began a fateful disintegration into Enneagram 3: "The Status Seeker" -- self-assured, competitive, narcissistic, hostle.

Come back to us Peny -- your Peacemaker is missed. And needed -- here - now in all of this outrage.

Steve

Dismayed asked about tradevest and I've been having a look through old posts because it tweaked my curiosity too.

Anyway, I thought I'd bring this thread to the top in case it has anything interesting for you in it.

There are so many threads unless you've been doing nothing but read here for the past two years there may be some you've missed that have answers you need!

Anyway, it can't hurt to keep in mind what consyn and co are really about.

In all the information regarding Tradevest, has the name of the director that took all the money ever been disclosed? What is the status of the criminal? Found? Bankrupt? Fled the country?

Seems like all the anger is toward Jach et al. Shouldn't the status of the real criminal and his stolen money be the larger target here? Was there ever a real investigation?

Just wondering who knows the legal facts of this case?

Lots of businesses go belly up at great loss for good reasons.

Many of us have invested, regretfully, at one time or another in a MLM business due to the high encouragement of those we love and trust only to be disappointed and poorer.

Welcome to the CF board, and thanks for posting.

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I'm a first timer who has been reading your board for a month or two after reading the January article on Jach from the Sentinal.

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Yes, we seem to have a number of vistors as a result of that article. I notice that it's been reposted in a few locations, making it a bit more available for those who might have missed it the first time around.

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In all the information regarding Tradevest, has the name of the director that took all the money ever been disclosed? What is the status of the criminal? Found? Bankrupt? Fled the country?

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We've never uncovered that information. Eventually, I suspect someone might show up and fill us in, since we do come up in the search engines under the topic.

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Seems like all the anger is toward Jach et al. Shouldn't the status of the real criminal and his stolen money be the larger target here? Was there ever a real investigation?

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This is an investigation of Jach Pursel here, not specifically Tradevest. The interest from my perspective is that the alleged all-wise and aware entity who functions outside of the "space/time continuum" made false claims and promises to his followers about what they could expect from investing in Tradevest. Kinda odd, huh?

Do you think that all interest in exposing these kinds of facts is rooted in anger, or that if it is, that it shouldn't be?

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Lots of businesses go belly up at great loss for good reasons.

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Right, but again, it appears that Tradevest was at best an ill-conceived concept, and at worst a planned rip-off, but still, the groovy entity (Jach Pursel) touted it as the way to wealth and long term financial security. How does that digest along with the claims Jach Pursel makes about the alleged entity he claims to channel?

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Many of us have invested, regretfully, at one time or another in a MLM business due to the high encouragement of those we love and trust only to be disappointed and poorer.

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Yes, and most of us end up more angry and more wary of said loved ones than a lot of true believers are of Jachass (Jach Pursel) and the false claims and empty promises he makes. I never heard anyone, btw, question or imply that anger over an MLM adventure was in any way inappropriate or ill-placed.

That's my area of interest in regards to Tradevest, why the Jachass (Jach Pursel) is teflon to the normal human responses most people have to being misled, ripped off, or lied to.

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Seems that IF this really is a case of embezzlement there would be/have been some legal ramifications in someone's life. Does anyone know?

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I don't. I suspect that one of these days someone will come along and fill us in.

Lots of people get away with a lot of white collar crime in this country. I know from personal experience that people start up MLMs with full intention to pull the plug on them once they reach critical mass, because that's where the return on investment is the highest. There are lots of ways to make this happen that aren't proveably illegal unless you have the principals on tape admitting that they manipulated the company or the events that cause the business to go belly-up. Most people aren't that dumb. Jachass (Jach Pursel) doesn't even need to be that smart though, because no matter what he does there will always be "true believers" who will make some excuse for him.

I'd have much rather seen ole Jach Pursel on trial than poor Martha Stewart. Jach Pursel is deliberately and consciously hurting people, and at least Martha Stewart's techniques actually work!

Are you a Lazaris follower?

Katie

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This is an investigation of Jach Pursel here, not specifically Tradevest. The interest from my perspective is that the alleged all-wise and aware entity who functions outside of the "space/time continuum" made false claims and promises to his followers about what they could expect from investing in Tradevest. Kinda odd, huh?
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By calling Jach an "all wise and aware entity who functions outside of the space/time continuum..." does that mean you have reached the conclusion that Jach is Lazaris and therefore a spiritual entity doesn't exist and Jach is faking Lazaris?

If Jach is Lazaris, then it's not odd to find false claims and promises. If Lazaris is real, and of a higher spiritual plane than us (proper vocabulary?)AND Lazaris is the one telling people to invest in the MLM, then it is not only odd but certainly a red flag that should have ousted many followers.

[BTW - because I'm not a Lazaris follower, or have a background in metaphysics, I will not have the "vocabulary" to use to express myself in terms that are consistent with metaphysical belief, so please pardon my "French" as I try to respond to you]

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Do you think that all interest in exposing these kinds of facts is rooted in anger, or that if it is, that it shouldn't be?
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No. Anger is an ok response to being betrayed, cheated, led astray by someone that one would normally trust (friend in this case)or someone with authority or credentials in other cases. If my actions are out of my own pride, arrogance, greed, trying to get something for nothing or in an illegal manner, then I tend to be more upset with myself when it fails because I feel the fool.

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...the groovy entity (Jach Pursel) touted it[Tradevest] as the way to wealth and long term financial security. How does that digest along with the claims Jach Pursel makes about the alleged entity he claims to channel?
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If Jach is the one who touted Tradevest, then bringing in his claims regarding Lazaris is of no effect in the argument over Tradevest. Yes, he may have done it at Concept Synergy events and the immature might associate Jach's support as Lazaris' support. You must be the judge, obviously I wasn't there to hear who was the salesman for Tradevest, Jach or Lazaris??

How would you ever know if Tradevest was ill conceived or a deliberate rip-off? You'd have to ask Key people directly or get legal facts, and any lack of integrity may forever conceal the truth of motive...so you are left with speculation. (a weak result at best)

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That's my area of interest in regards to Tradevest, why the Jachass (Jach Pursel) is teflon to the normal human responses most people have to being misled, ripped off, or lied to.
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In the case of Tradevest, is someone's similar response to selling a favorite stock any different? We hope it will succeed, we have trouble selling it as a looser, we want to wait just a while longer, surely the market will go up....

In the broader scope of Concept Synergy, I believe the "teflon effect" especially comes with the turf of "spirituality". Because of the "hope" associated with belief.

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no matter what he [Jach] does there will always be "true believers" who will make some excuse for him.
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Yes that's true and quite normal human nature. Whether it's a "stand by your man" situation, or going through "thick and thin" in a friendship, we are all quite willing to want to stay with someone we trust and love even for a season when they are untrustworthy and unloving. The experts will help us decide when it's co-dependant, and even then we may stay out of "hope" that things will work in the future.

I think you have developed a site here that is being helpful to heal some who have had your experiences. It is worthwhile to help those who exit hurting, or who are wondering if they should exit. Good information is valuable. Personal testimonies are powerful tools. I know spiritual betrayal can take many years to overcome. Some I know have lanquished decades & never re-established a healthy spirituality in their lives. It can be a very dangerous trap which is probably why forgiveness is such a valuable tool whether the other person ever asks for it or not.

From a readers standpoint who doesn't have your experiences, the play on words and seeming name calling IMHO weakens your stance.

If you had a lawyer in your midst who could continue to add to your ability to not only investigate, but ferret out any legal recourses you might have should you value taking them, you'd have more clout to actually affect change in stopping an organization you think isn't legitimate.

Your public evidence is important in influencing "believers" as well as warning those who may have interest. For example the posting of public information concerning the deaths of Peny & Michaell, and Concept Synergy's e-mails explainig the deaths are great.

Well, I don't want to seem too advising.... you all have labored diligently and well for several years and your site is a red flag that will hopefully be found by many. It has filled in some blanks for me personally as one who has stood at a distance for many years.

Thanks for the thoughtful response!

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By calling Jach an "all wise and aware entity who functions outside of the space/time continuum..." does that mean you have reached the conclusion that Jach is Lazaris and therefore a spiritual entity doesn't exist and Jach is faking Lazaris?

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The words come out of Jachass's (Jach Pursel) mouth, so what difference does it make what name he uses when offering them? There is no evidence that there's any entity named "Lazaris".

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If Jach is Lazaris, then it's not odd to find false claims and promises.

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Yes, that does seem to be the logical conclusion.

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If Lazaris is real, and of a higher spiritual plane than us (proper vocabulary?)AND Lazaris is the one telling people to invest in the MLM, then it is not only odd but certainly a red flag that should have ousted many followers.

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It caused some to doubt and/or leave the fold, but the fact that a number didn't, despite even far more blatant evidence that the "Liezaris" (Jach Pursel) information and techniques are beyond bogus is what holds my continued interest in the topic.

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....so please pardon my "French" as I try to respond to you

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No worries! The Con:Scam (Concept:Synergy) uses lots of loaded language, as do most cults, so it's inevitable and IMO, deliberate, that the uninitiated won't understand all the terminology, or the unique ways in which certain words and concepts are defined by the cult. It goes to the sense of the cult member that they are special and more aware and enlightened that others, and it has the added benefit of shutting down communication with those outside the cult, so it's a double whammy for the Jachass. (Jach Pursel)

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If my actions are out of my own pride, arrogance, greed, trying to get something for nothing or in an illegal manner, then I tend to be more upset with myself when it fails because I feel the fool.

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Probably to some extent those motives are behind all of these quests for quick and easy answers and enlightenment, that's something that I think most of us had to address during our process of waking up and leaving the cult, but at the same time, it does seem that those who leave are mostly people whose primary motives for getting involved were sincere. Maybe it's the fear of feeling like a fool that keeps people in. It isn't an accident, by the way, that we named this site as we did! There are certain aspects to being a fool that aren't actually all that bad. I suspect that the Motley Fool is named for similar reasons to ours, for example. I have no problems being a Fool!! I just don't want to be a stupid fool, and we are all that from time to time too, let's face it. None of us are completely immune to manipulations and influence. A stupid fool, IMO, isn't one who is never fooled, but one who never admits to being fooled. A Cosmic Fool admits it and has a good laugh about it, then gets busy figuring out why and how it happened.

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You must be the judge, obviously I wasn't there to hear who was the salesman for Tradevest, Jach or Lazaris??

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Well, Jach said it was Lazaris speaking. The words came out of his mouth though. Liezaris is Jach's voice of authority. By making claims about Liezaris, Jach avoids personal responsibility for what he says. There's always an explanation for why one might find the Liezaris information to be incorrect or lacking, and the excuse always has something to do with what's wrong with the listener for not being able to digest such great wisdom.

Tradevest is one of the areas where none of those excuses, justifications, and rationalizations fit, but that doesn't stop a fair number of followers from coming up with a few lame ones nevertheless. To my knowledge, neither the Jachass (Jach Pursel)himself, or his alter-ego Liezaris have ever addressed the issue. It's a taboo topic, another cult characteristic.

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How would you ever know if Tradevest was ill conceived or a deliberate rip-off?

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We don't. The point is that false and misleading information was offered from an alleged all-wise entity who we're supposed to trust implicitly. If Lazaris is "all-wise" why didn't "he" know that Tradevest was going to go bust?

The evident scam here is "Lazaris". Who knows whether the founders of Tradevest were sincere or not, although, you still have to acknowledge that promises were made that were misleading at best, as with all of these kinds of MLM and get rich quick schemes. None of them are truly ethical in the way they present themselves, but ethics and laws aren't the same thing, so they continue to pop up, and people continue to trance out to all the claims and promises and forget to read the small print.

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You'd have to ask Key people directly or get legal facts, and any lack of integrity may forever conceal the truth of motive...so you are left with speculation. (a weak result at best)

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Well, we're left with knowing once again that if it sounds too good to be true it is too good to be true. The key people are evidently MIA. But again, this isn't my area of interest, and that's why I haven't bothered doing much digging around about it. Others who have posted here in the past know more about the details and the principals than I do.

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In the case of Tradevest, is someone's similar response to selling a favorite stock any different? We hope it will succeed, we have trouble selling it as a looser, we want to wait just a while longer, surely the market will go up....

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There's a big difference between making a personal decision to invest in a given stock and having an investment plan offered to you on the authority of someone who has asserted themselves to be a spiritual authority who will love you forever and a day. This is undue influence, which by some interpretations is a crime.

Taken from the following article on "undue influence" :

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Thorough documentation of any and all signs of undue influence is helpful in establishing the pattern ofisolation, siege mentality, dependency and powerlessness that allows the perpetrator to gain control of the victim. When they receive timely notification of undue influence and financial exploitation, lawenforcement officials are willing toprosecute this type of abuse andexploitation.

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http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:NSGwjYaFXM0J:www.matrixadvocare.com/v14_n2.pdf+undue+influence+crime&hl=en

Legal authorities are very very slowly beginning to address the issue of the undue influence employed by cults and cult leaders. There have been a few noteworthy wins on the side of exploited and abused cult members, but so far the general mentality on the subject is that cult members get what they ask for. Possibly so. I don't think there can be a universally applied evaluation on that topic. Some people are more vulnerable than others, and some are far more under the direct influence of cult leaders and the organization than others, so IMO, it's a shame that law enforcement officials don't pay more attention to these groups.

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In the broader scope of Concept Synergy, I believe the "teflon effect" especially comes with the turf of "spirituality". Because of the "hope" associated with belief.

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Yes, hope is a big component, but it's a bit more complex than that, IMO. False pride is a big one too,in my experience.

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The experts will help us decide when it's co-dependant, and even then we may stay out of "hope" that things will work in the future.

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One of my hopes is that as we become more aware of these kinds of co-dependent relationships that we will become our own experts. Trusting the "experts" is a big part of the problem. I really think that other than in cases where one's life or those of others are at risk that we should leave the "experts" out of it, especially given that they don't all agree on much, and that many of them are exploiters and abusers themselves.

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I think you have developed a site here that is being helpful to heal some who have had your experiences.

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Truly, we leave the healing part up to the individual. We aren't claiming to be healers here. Which is not to say that some of us haven't had a healing experience here. But that's up to the individual, at the end of the day, isn't it?

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It is worthwhile to help those who exit hurting, or who are wondering if they should exit.

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Again, we really don't claim to offer that kind of help. All we can do is tell our stories and share our thoughts and experiences. Those who come here looking for any help beyond the simple sharing of experiences, thoughts, and information usually go away quite disappointed. We simply can't make any offer to help people, because it would be unethical to do so and we are also not in any way willing to take on that kind of responsibility for the well-being of others. We leave that kind of "helpfulness" to the opportunists of the world.

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Good information is valuable.

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Yes, and that is what we do strive to provide. It's our policy to host any kind of information that is offered, but we do also leave it to the individual to decide for themselves how "good" it is. What we do encourage are discussions on the processes we use to make these evaluations.

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Personal testimonies are powerful tools.

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Or not, it depends again on the individual. Sadly, it's been my observation that the majority seek personal testimonies that support their own existing beliefs and don't apply any standards beyond that to the evaluation process. So again, the evaluation process itself is for me the most important discussion we can have here.

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I know spiritual betrayal can take many years to overcome.

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Or not. For some of us it actually all came as a huge relief!! Everyone gets betrayed in life, it's a fact of human nature, and I'm sure that most of us have betrayed someone as well. It's a bitter pill to face and acknowledge, but trying to deny it, or avoid the emotions come with it is worse than any bitter pill IMO. For me there is almost a sense of personal triumph in being able to state that I know I was betrayed and that I'm pissed off about it. I think being able to do that has been far, far more healthy and productive for me than wallowing in it and believing that it's something I'll never recover from. I think head on acknowledgement of the total experience IS recovery. Especially the part where we allow ourselves to have our real feelings and valid about it all.

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Some I know have lanquished decades & never re-established a healthy spirituality in their lives.

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Some people never move beyond failed love affairs or relationships either. This is a personal choice that isn't very appealing to me. There are aspects of these kinds of situations that will always remain with us, I don't dispute that, but it's what we do with those remnants that matters the most IMO. Drowning in them doesn't seem to be an attractive option any more than completely denying them does.

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It can be a very dangerous trap which is probably why forgiveness is such a valuable tool whether the other person ever asks for it or not.

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Oh, back on the old forgiveness saw! Sorry, but I don't even think most of us know what the word really means. In new-age circles it seems to mean "pretend". IMO, forgiveness is a very complex circumstance that is born of a far deeper process than simply deciding that it's healthy to forgive, so bata bing, "I forgive you.".

I don't forgive the Jachass, I can't, because he's still doing what he's been doing, so I'd have to be forgiving him constantly. I think one of the big issues for many here is the desire to UNDERSTAND Jach, and why he does what he does, and I think we do that because whether it's a part of a conscious process or not, we know that understanding is a part of forgiveness.

I have long since forgiven Peny, for example, because through the details of her illness and death we came to understand a lot about her. I know have no feelings about Peny at all other than a sense of remorse about the way her life panned out. I sincerely believe that she and Micheall were Jach's primary victims. He played those two like Stradivariuses (sp?).

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From a readers standpoint who doesn't have your experiences, the play on words and seeming name calling IMHO weakens your stance.

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The name calling is deliberate. The Jachass has mythologized himself, and our nick names for him bring him back down to earth a bit. I think a lot of why we do it is simply because we weren't allowed to even think a negative thought about Jachshit for all those years, and it's fun now to do it. Our stances are personal, and of our own personal evaluations. The primary stance here is for me "THINK and FEEL". The rest is a mixed bag, as this group is a mixed bag.

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If you had a lawyer in your midst who could continue to add to your ability to not only investigate, but ferret out any legal recourses you might have should you value taking them, you'd have more clout to actually affect change in stopping an organization you think isn't legitimate.

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Yes, if that were our goal. It isn't my goal, although if it were, or if it ever becomes my goal, I don't suspect that I'll need any lawyers. Lawyers are nice enough, but I've done so much research on this topic already that unless an attorney showed up who specialized in the field of First Amendment interpretations of the laws that apply to psychological coersion and undue influence I'd be educating them. This is not said to be arrogant, it's simply the truth.
I've put an immeasurable amount of time into researching and posting on the legal issues here, and in fact, I seem to be among a very small group, maybe I'm the only one, who actually is very interested.

I also don't really care if the Jachass continues to influence a few hundred people world wide. At this point the information is available to make an evaluation, information that we never had, so que sera sera. Most of those people are flat out ignorant, dense, nasty pieces of work posing as enlightened beings anyway, so screw them!

For me, this site is really about me at the end of the day. I hope it's the same for all of us.

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Your public evidence is important in influencing "believers" as well as warning those who may have interest. For example the posting of public information concerning the deaths of Peny & Michaell, and Concept Synergy's e-mails explainig the deaths are great.

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Yes, it's had thousands and thousands of hits and continues to. We do continue to get emails from those whose eyes were opened by the information and from those who think we're unspiritual assholes in denial too. It's there and people can do with it what they want.

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Well, I don't want to seem too advising....

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You haven't been. Hopefully I've explained why we aren't seeking any advice. There is no goal here to be healers, helpers, or fixers of other people, so any advice about how to do that better is misplaced. If anyone reading here wants to be any of those things, your advice is probably good. It's a lot better than most that we've had offered to us here!!

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you all have labored diligently and well for several years and your site is a red flag that will hopefully be found by many. It has filled in some blanks for me personally as one who has stood at a distance for many years.

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Yes, filling in the blanks is one of our goals for sure, so I'm glad we did for you.

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I will check back periodically, I want to see what happens with Concept Synergy now that two of the principle people have been gone several years.

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Seems like business as usual, minus the additional problems that Peny added to the mix. One night when I was surfing through the cosmos I could swear I heard a huge sigh of relief coming from the general vacinity of the Jachass.

[quote]Will Jach morph into some other business that's just as public, or will Concept Synergy slowly fade away and it's leader/entity with it?[/quoet]

Who knows? The latest news is that Jachoff has come out of the closet, abandoned his alleged celibacy, and is having a happy romp with a pretty new toyboy.

I think that the Liezaris show will continue as long as it serves Jachass's purposes, and how it serves his purposes as it always has.

One thing that is extremely clear, Jach Pursel has no concern for anyone or anything beyond his own personal gratification. And I think he loves the roar of the adoring crowd. He hasn't done too bad for himself, considering what a complete and utterly unattractive nerdly slobbermouth he really is.

I have come to believe that our consciences are a "use it or lose it" proposition. I also don't believe in any kind of "universal justice" or at least not one that provides us with the kind of entertainment we would hope for, so I leave Jachass to his puny little fantasy world. Let's not forget the reason for the "co" in co-dependent. Jach flourishes at the pleasure and consent of people who aren't much different than he is. I leave them to their own choices as long as they leave me to mine.

Thanks again for taking the time to share your thoughts in an equitable and thoughtful manner. That's what it's all about, isn't it?

Katie